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Invisibility has Gotten out of Hand

Vlad Morbius.1759Vlad Morbius.1759 Member ✭✭✭
edited August 15, 2020 in WvW

Too much of it in game now, far too many classes have it and it is highly unbalanced. I'm not saying get rid of it but limit the damage you can do while invisible it is OP today and it is a ridiculously overused skill which should be a clear indication that it is too powerful. Remove things like stealth burst, how about removing boons when you go invis, there has to be a cost to this.

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Comments

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I'd rather have the tells from stealth to prep with, plus they have to come out to do anything, that's usually the easiest moment to snatch someone up.

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL] & [SD]

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vlad Morbius.1759 said:
    Too much of it in game now, far too many classes have it and it is highly unbalanced. I'm not saying get rid of it but limit the damage you can do while invisible it is OP today and it is a ridiculously overused skill which should be a clear indication that it is too powerful. Remove things like stealth burst, how about removing boons when you go invis, there has to be a cost to this.

    GW2 has a very shallow stealth system, but unfortunately it doesn't seem like changes will be made.

  • Crazy.6029Crazy.6029 Member ✭✭✭

    There isn't to much in my opinion, it just has been implemented very poorly and balanced very poorly is all. Damage should break stealth but that would mean to much work to balance the classes with it to give them more defenses to handle being exposed, so, instead it is a defensive measure as well as an offensive one. It's kind of like how necro shroud is both defense and offensive. Which is why both classes are constantly under attack on the forums. It's just ignored bad game design.

    Let's nerf everything, so that we don't need any skill to play.
    The Truth sometimes hurts but it is good for you.

  • Smoosh.2718Smoosh.2718 Member ✭✭✭

    I get that Revealed is meant to counter invisible... but why cant you reveal a invisible person? or an AOE reveal (e.g. on my mark - Mark your foe for 16% vuln and reveal around your character invisible foes preventing them from cloaking. Range for the Vuln would stay but the reveal would need to come down to say 450-600)

    Also... skills should not be able to remove the revealed debuff as it kills the counterplay once again.

  • @AikijinX.6258 said:
    The Problem is that Anet gave Stealth access to almost every class, when it was supposed to be unique to Thieves and I suppose Mesmers. Every class has some type of uniqueness to them, while ironically Thieves have had their uniqueness in Stealth stolen as well as heavily neutered, with all these abilities placing Reveal and Marked on them.

    Almost every class? How do warriors, necros, revs and guardians stealth?

  • @gousgou.5438 said:

    @AikijinX.6258 said:
    The Problem is that Anet gave Stealth access to almost every class, when it was supposed to be unique to Thieves and I suppose Mesmers. Every class has some type of uniqueness to them, while ironically Thieves have had their uniqueness in Stealth stolen as well as heavily neutered, with all these abilities placing Reveal and Marked on them.

    Almost every class? How do warriors, necros, revs and guardians stealth?

    guards can use rune of trapper, cant they?

  • Turamarth.3248Turamarth.3248 Member ✭✭
    edited August 16, 2020

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    speed: 10%
    damage: 5%
    no blinks, teleports etc

    while in stealth.

    What would then be the use of stealth? Considering that stealth doesn't prevent any damage to yourself it would just turn you into a sitting duck. You might as well just use Alt+F4 if you want to lose a fight.

  • Svarty.8019Svarty.8019 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vlad Morbius.1759 said:
    Invisibility has Gotten out of Hand


    Who said that?!

    RP aside, I think the OP has a point. It's neat to roll over unsuspecting enemies once or twice (or twenty, or thirty times), but after a while it becomes incredibly cheesy and emphasises the difference in skill between worlds (this is a bad thing).

    This post contains my opinion.

  • diomache.9246diomache.9246 Member ✭✭✭

    What I learned from that thread:
    You either can counter stealth or you are a total noob which means stealth is fine. greetings from your stealth cheese player.

    Με χίλια ονόματα, μία χάρη, ακρίτας ειτ’ αρματολός, αντάρτης, κλέφτης, παλικάρι; πάντα ειν’ ο ίδιος ο λαός.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @foxof.8752 said:
    have you guys tried to find a perma stealth deadeye in fire keep lord room, that have levels, huge space? That the DE also capable to teleport in zerg from outer south or north directly to lord room?
    The deadeye only got caught when he lower his guard down and after more than 30 minutes fun time he have had.

    "Stealth not a problem at all."

    edit: if you are going to argue "DE cannot port in a zerg" , answer: "DE also capable to teleport in zerg with the help of multiple mes that port in 1st"

    Anet knows what they are doing. Why do you think the lord room isnt within the area of reveal after a cap? There is no bugs, only features.

    gaggle - /ˈɡaɡ(ə)l/ - noun
    A disorderly group of Asura.
    "The gaggle of Asura tried to agree on whether a phase-shifted thermonuclear energy matrix was sufficiently powerful for a device capable of heating bread"

  • aspirine.6852aspirine.6852 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Svarty.8019 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    If you're a skilled player you know how to properly play against stealth, those who don't aren't effective regardless but i find no joy in losing a mechanic i am adept at using. It has been a staple in the game since the onset and it needs to stay, thanks!
    ;)

    Give me the source for this statement or stop lying to push your silly narrative through.

    Dont expect an answer that doesnt involve learn to play/counter....

  • DeceiverX.8361DeceiverX.8361 Member ✭✭✭✭

    And I'll continue to echo that permanent and sustained stealth is a problem more than the ability to burst without being visible in that time of strike.

    If there's an animation for the stealth itself, and you know:

    • How long it'll last/be a short duration, and;
    • That it'll come at the cost of the player having predictable behavior when stealthed (no major chain CC combos etc.), and;
    • That the player is likely within threat/melee range when initiating damage again, or;
    • Will limit the player to be running away and acts as a source of combat resetting, applicable to both players

    Then stealth really does not prove problematic at all and is just a fine mechanic. Like what you see on x/D thief with CnD and core mesmer for the most part. Getting confouded by these stealth abilities - especially x/D thief - generally means you got outplayed.

    The problem is these rules have been HEAVILY broken by the classes which have it, ranging from permanent sustained uptimes on ranged classes to hiding massive cast-time unblockable AoE's and CC chains to classes which otherwise feature heavy defenses which do not already need the stealth to survive to reset fights.

    If stealth were made so that it couldn't be used OOC or stack in duration, and they actually made it come at a cost like it does in the case of some builds, it wouldn't be a problem mechanic at all, as then it solely boils down to class knowledge.

    You sure that Sniper idea is as good as you thought it was gonna be?
    Because I think my original idea is better.

  • GDchiaScrub.3241GDchiaScrub.3241 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Invisibility is necessary to steal loot from the dungeon. It's not like thieves are going to take many hits with a d4 as hit points, plus more treasure = more exp to level up faster.

    D:

    Holy Warriors of [Kazo] following Kazo doctrine guided by, Our Lord and Commander, Zudo in the holy Trinity of Him and his two firm glutes.

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vlad Morbius.1759 said:
    Too much of it in game now, far too many classes have it and it is highly unbalanced. I'm not saying get rid of it but limit the damage you can do while invisible it is OP today and it is a ridiculously overused skill which should be a clear indication that it is too powerful. Remove things like stealth burst, how about removing boons when you go invis, there has to be a cost to this.

    Threads like this and comments like yours are why the developers of this game can't possibly take player feedback on these topics seriously.

    "We recognize that some players are not able to complete all content." Gaile Gray 01.10.19

  • ShadowCatz.8437ShadowCatz.8437 Member ✭✭✭

    @Katelynn.6593 said:

    @AikijinX.6258 said:
    The Problem is that Anet gave Stealth access to almost every class, when it was supposed to be unique to Thieves and I suppose Mesmers. Every class has uniqueness to them, while ironically Thieves have had their uniqueness in Stealth stolen as well as heavily neutered, with all these abilities placing Reveal and marks on a Thief.

    Too much stealth- People complain
    Too much evade- People complain
    Too much damage- People complain
    Too much mobility- People complain
    Too many teleports- People complain
    Too much blind- People complain
    Too many spammable skills- People complain
    Too much access to poison- People complain
    Too much condition capability- People complain
    Ability to Teleport allies- People Complain

    People need to chill.

    Well ele doesn't have stealth so at least there's that in your favour.

    You forget that ele had and have Mist Form (+Tornado elite skill - both are Cantrips skills) which also people hated for some years ago before it got nerfed. It is a rather powerful skill as you can move, not get targeted (the old version) when you are in that form and have some invul (changed in patch notes), but you also have and had limitations like no skills that can be used while in Mist Form. Is is not stealth, but it is not far from in the way it also give mobility, is part of Cantrip which also Tornado belongs to and in WvW have a very short CD on 60 seconds vs both PvP and PvE where it is 90 and 150 seconds.

  • Solanum.6983Solanum.6983 Member ✭✭✭

    Stealth as a whole I think needs a rework. Personally I think it's fine as a mobility and escape tool but using it while in combat is where majority of the problems are.
    So many traits and skills reward attacking out of stealth, I feel like this is a huge problem when you can constantly reenter stealth during a fight.

    If it weren't for almost every class having a form of stealth I'd say thief should get a toggle mechanic that only allows stealth out of combat but I guess that's out of the question. Even then that'd probably open a whole new can of worms.

  • Ganathar.4956Ganathar.4956 Member ✭✭✭

    @Solanum.6983 said:
    Stealth as a whole I think needs a rework. Personally I think it's fine as a mobility and escape tool but using it while in combat is where majority of the problems are.
    So many traits and skills reward attacking out of stealth, I feel like this is a huge problem when you can constantly reenter stealth during a fight.

    If it weren't for almost every class having a form of stealth I'd say thief should get a toggle mechanic that only allows stealth out of combat but I guess that's out of the question. Even then that'd probably open a whole new can of worms.

    Stealth is full of issues in GW2, but the biggest problem has to be that attacking someone who is evading does not reveal.

  • @mindcircus.1506 said:
    Threads like this and comments like yours are why the developers of this game can't possibly take player feedback on these topics seriously.

    Based on the overall reaction i'd say your opinion is in the minority.

  • Svarty.8019Svarty.8019 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Katelynn.6593 said:

    Well ele doesn't have stealth so at least there's that in your favour.

    Sorry to be that guy...

    This post contains my opinion.

  • Katelynn.6593Katelynn.6593 Member ✭✭✭

    @Svarty.8019 said:

    @Katelynn.6593 said:

    Well ele doesn't have stealth so at least there's that in your favour.

    Sorry to be that guy...

    Haven't watched the video yet but if this is legit stealth, then thanks for sharing, don't apologize!

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dangus.6572 said:
    You haven't played one shot thief have you?
    I'll tell you my story. To scratch someone for like... 8-15k from backstab I'm almost full zerk. it's like 12-13k of HP, with like 0 armor. In this "red circle" AOE dmg, CC , tank condi meta it's pretty difficult to survive. stand for 1-2 seconds in these circles and you are dead. If there are 2 rangers - dead. Stealth, 2 evades, shadowstep is all I got. The cost of stealth has been increased. backstab has cd.

    And yeah... thief class is predators. And yeah WvW is not walk in a park. There are many ways to play against stealth and thieves. I meet lots of good roamers out there. But you know, to be good requires some effort, dying a lot. Not everyone is ready for such things. Stealth is not a problem. May be wvw is not your type of game?

    Mobility was a problem? Warr is fast now. They even added a Cat to ride... Mass reveals near claimed towers and blah blah blah. Have you tried to roam with super stealthy thief? No probably not :). To sit on your side of wvw map with deadeye might be easy task. To go out there - stealth is not most perfect thing. No one walks alone anymore. Especially in no downstate week.

    Anyway I wish all good fun in WvW. Die a lot, kill a lot. Do not whack solo roamers if they just standing in a way of blob. Be polite. Salt's fun, but corpse jump or siege wall on poor invader killed by 20 persons zerg isn't.

    Thread should have ended here.

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL] & [SD]

  • Jeran.6850Jeran.6850 Member ✭✭✭

    If only thief players would stop to act so...special

  • DemonSeed.3528DemonSeed.3528 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jeran.6850 said:
    We dont have stealth. We dont have your evades (on staff). We dont have something like shortbow as a secondary weapon. We dont hit anyone for 13k by pressing a single button, aside of literaly all stars in universe aligne (or fighting a keep lord with all buffs up).


    You should try a staff build like this.There's a few big hits there, I think there's a 14k prolly about 50s in.
    Technically ele can stealth by smoke field in water and blasting from land, cellofrag also showed it in one of his older videos. If they are also near npc which have a smoke field they could blast those too which is pretty neat. There's actually a few crazy people running around on staff ele roaming. I know it may be a little off topic but it was just something that was interesting to me.

  • Bristingr.5034Bristingr.5034 Member ✭✭✭

    @AikijinX.6258 said:
    The Problem is that Anet gave Stealth access to almost every class

    Wait, when did Elementalists receive stealth?

  • Ubi.4136Ubi.4136 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Bristingr.5034 said:

    @AikijinX.6258 said:
    The Problem is that Anet gave Stealth access to almost every class

    Wait, when did Elementalists receive stealth?

    Almost every class, but that said, they can combo an underwater skill to get it.

    Lost in the Maguuma (TC)
    For the geographically challenged, yes, Tarnished Coast is located IN the Maguuma Jungle.

  • Jeran.6850Jeran.6850 Member ✭✭✭

    @DemonSeed.3528 said:

    @Jeran.6850 said:
    We dont have stealth. We dont have your evades (on staff). We dont have something like shortbow as a secondary weapon. We dont hit anyone for 13k by pressing a single button, aside of literaly all stars in universe aligne (or fighting a keep lord with all buffs up).


    You should try a staff build like this.There's a few big hits there, I think there's a 14k prolly about 50s in.
    Technically ele can stealth by smoke field in water and blasting from land, cellofrag also showed it in one of his older videos. If they are also near npc which have a smoke field they could blast those too which is pretty neat. There's actually a few crazy people running around on staff ele roaming. I know it may be a little off topic but it was just something that was interesting to me.

    Hello there, i appreciate your post (really, i do), but i am also sure you know that i wasnt talking about 1v2 staff weaver meme builds...when watching that video, there have been an incedible amount of chanelled skills that wasnt interrupted. I do feel a little silly/sorry to mention it, but with pofs mirage, it was established that an reaction time of a quarter of a second should be the normality, something everyone should be able to handle, and to react to.....(that is what mesmer and thief players said...not me).
    The guys/girls in that video? They dont even react to skills taking 3/4 seconds to execute (while beeing forced to stand still on the ele side).

    And in all honesty, Cellofrag brought more harm than good, if its about the reputation of the elementalist class, making it look all to easy (i even was in its "1v100" youtube video, on the opposing side, at bay ... what a garbage nonsense. It was just clickbait, no substance at all.
    Sadly, one of the last actually remaining "above average" ele player, Solemn, also tries (seemingly) to convince everyone, that ele is a low skill, high reward class.. completely negating, that, as much as with Cellofrag, maybe only 5% (that is a guess, its likely even less) of ALL elementalist players in the game could not ever reach their level of gameplay.

  • Jeran.6850Jeran.6850 Member ✭✭✭

    erase the "not" in the last sentence, then it will make more sense....

  • diomache.9246diomache.9246 Member ✭✭✭

    Easier solution. Bind stealth on thief to the energy system and make being hit in stealth an auto-destealth effect. Or alternatively give every profession more access to reveal skills.

    Με χίλια ονόματα, μία χάρη, ακρίτας ειτ’ αρματολός, αντάρτης, κλέφτης, παλικάρι; πάντα ειν’ ο ίδιος ο λαός.

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 18, 2020

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    I've been a vocal anti stealth guy for a long time myself and I do think something needs to be done about it.

    Stealth alone is annoying but stealth + mobility is insufferable.
    Unfortunately the classes that use stealth the most tend to be apt in both those things.
    Mes has their teleports and blinks, Stealth trap rangers have their leap's and dash's and of course thief being the worst offender has so many large evades and shadowsteps they can use to play their hit and run nonsense.

    I think the main reason stealth is such a problem is because of how little there is to counter it.. Reveal being about the only decent way to do so and that is a very, very limited ability that most classes don't even get good access to.
    Add to that they even give thief the ability to remove it XD

    It's an annoying mechanic for sure, even if the thief knows he can't kill someone he can still follow them around and harass them to no end by abusing it.
    It needs better counters imo, or at least most classes need better access to those counters.

    How much more do you need to turn around and hit someone who is likely right behind you or within a cone of where their ground marker for stealth was if they're ranged? I'll take the tells from stealth in and stealth out over most others in the game, especially since they have to come out of stealth to do anything that I can't clear or break right away. Stealth doesn't need better counters, it needs people to quit acting like stealth comes with a force field or like they can't land anything on them between blinks. A lot of thieves are pretty much supercharged npcs but the good and really annoying ones would probably frustrate you on other professions, they probably read you before you know they're scoping you out. I got tuned up by another thief this weekend with no more stealth or better tools than I had, he was just better but more importantly he just read me too well and I reacted more instead of staying calm and reading what he was plotting correctly.

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL] & [SD]

  • diomache.9246diomache.9246 Member ✭✭✭

    That's a nice idea, but "the cone" is always 360° and only a small part of the professions have the option to hit things without having a target. So, no, stealth needs serious counterplay and that is either a reveal that doesn't need to be targeted or in form of a field similar to necro marks. And the "remove reveal" from Deadeye has to go.
    "Guessing" in which direction the thief went while even not knowing if you hit something isn't counterplay.

    And of course the most serious counter to thieves are other thieves. Why do you think this is the case? Because they have, as you said, the same tools you use, so if you stealth, he stealthes, if you port away, he ports behind you. What would a necro do? Right, he wouldn't even try following you for the kill because he'd never catch up. If you stealth his only chance is to place staff marks or swing his sword with 130 range?
    And that's the same for basically everyone except maybe Engineers or Rangers. And why those? Because they counter stealth, stealth themself and are highly mobile.

    Με χίλια ονόματα, μία χάρη, ακρίτας ειτ’ αρματολός, αντάρτης, κλέφτης, παλικάρι; πάντα ειν’ ο ίδιος ο λαός.

  • Svarty.8019Svarty.8019 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Bristingr.5034 said:

    @AikijinX.6258 said:
    The Problem is that Anet gave Stealth access to almost every class

    Wait, when did Elementalists receive stealth?

    Do I have to link the video again or would you care to scroll up?

    This post contains my opinion.