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Invisibility has Gotten out of Hand

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  • JTGuevara.9018JTGuevara.9018 Member ✭✭✭

    @AikijinX.6258 said:
    The Problem is that Anet gave Stealth access to almost every class, when it was supposed to be unique to Thieves and I suppose Mesmers. Every class has some type of uniqueness to them, while ironically Thieves have had their uniqueness in Stealth stolen as well as heavily neutered, with all these abilities placing Reveal and Marked on them.

    Too much stealth- People complain
    Too much evade- People complain
    Too much damage- People complain
    Too much mobility- People complain
    Too many teleports- People complain
    Too much blind- People complain
    Too many spammable skills- People complain
    Too much access to poison- People complain
    Too much condition capability- People complain
    Ability to Teleport allies- People Complain

    People need to chill.

    But I'm a warrior, where's MY stealth? lol

  • @JTGuevara.9018 said:

    @AikijinX.6258 said:
    The Problem is that Anet gave Stealth access to almost every class, when it was supposed to be unique to Thieves and I suppose Mesmers. Every class has some type of uniqueness to them, while ironically Thieves have had their uniqueness in Stealth stolen as well as heavily neutered, with all these abilities placing Reveal and Marked on them.

    Too much stealth- People complain
    Too much evade- People complain
    Too much damage- People complain
    Too much mobility- People complain
    Too many teleports- People complain
    Too much blind- People complain
    Too many spammable skills- People complain
    Too much access to poison- People complain
    Too much condition capability- People complain
    Ability to Teleport allies- People Complain

    People need to chill.

    But I'm a warrior, where's MY stealth? lol

    Just blast some Smoke Fields or reflect Rangers stealth shot, what's so hard about it man, you don't have your pocket Smoke Field?

  • DemonSeed.3528DemonSeed.3528 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I do miss the old infiltration runes though hehe.

  • There isn't too much stealth, but I do agree it could be linked to stats more. One thing I think I would like instead of more reveals is a perception stat that lets you see stealthed players within a certain range if their stealth isn't as good as your perception. I've played other games with stealth that have this and most people took stealth and one-shotted people and I took the perception stat and one-shotted them. In this game you can still kind of do that if you know what thieves' and mesmers' moves are and you're fighting, but you can't just walk within 10 feet of a thief roamer in WvW and your mystical perception finds them and this makes me not feel like a real wizard.

  • I do not say it's hard life to be a thief. What's most important and what I like about this game it's RPG. Ability to craft your character to match yourself and your game style. Not to mention that every crafted class/build mix can have pros/cons fighting some other class/build. I always played D/P thief/DD because I love fast pace, I love to be in centre of action. Stealth and initiative helps me to control battlefield, play on my own pace. I like attacker classes with ability to control.

    Everyone is welcome to play thief/DD/DE. But today I see only few thieves in Europes (UW) enemy servers. And if I do, half of them are condi builds. Only on no downstate week there has been increase of power thieves.

    To add about damage and stealth... in duels or small group fights.

    Backstab for D/P thief = using almost all your initiative, walking in near proximity to your enemy who expects you. Long story short - if you get 1 8-10k backstab in 20 -30 seconds to an enemy who expects you - that's great. Usually in order to do it thief sacrifice lots of resources. CD on backstab = 1 try in 4sec invisibility window. Usually what you get is.

    Blocked, invulnerable, 0, not enough distance, 5 different condition stacks, interrupted, knocked, rooted. Anyway, there are so much diversity in this game, that to blame all function accessible to almost every class sounds like bad thing.

    P.S. Eles/Weavers - they are lottery for me. That's probably because of lack of knowledge about class. Anyway usually I end up dead if I meet some decent ele class/build in my way.

    @Jeran.6850 said:

    @Dangus.6572 said:
    You haven't played one shot thief have you?
    I'll tell you my story. To scratch someone for like... 8-15k from backstab I'm almost full zerk. it's like 12-13k of HP, with like 0 armor. In this "red circle" AOE dmg, CC , tank condi meta it's pretty difficult to survive. stand for 1-2 seconds in these circles and you are dead. If there are 2 rangers - dead. Stealth, 2 evades, shadowstep is all I got. The cost of stealth has been increased. backstab has cd.

    And yeah... thief class is predators. And yeah WvW is not walk in a park. There are many ways to play against stealth and thieves. I meet lots of good roamers out there. But you know, to be good requires some effort, dying a lot. Not everyone is ready for such things. Stealth is not a problem. May be wvw is not your type of game?

    Mobility was a problem? Warr is fast now. They even added a Cat to ride... Mass reveals near claimed towers and blah blah blah. Have you tried to roam with super stealthy thief? No probably not :). To sit on your side of wvw map with deadeye might be easy task. To go out there - stealth is not most perfect thing. No one walks alone anymore. Especially in no downstate week.

    Anyway I wish all good fun in WvW. Die a lot, kill a lot. Do not whack solo roamers if they just standing in a way of blob. Be polite. Salt's fun, but corpse jump or siege wall on poor invader killed by 20 persons zerg isn't.

    Maybe it will will interrest you to know, that the average power staff ele that is supposed to not only survive a 50v50 engagement, but also beeing on top of arc-dps damage evaluation. It is at about 14k, no toughness, no supportive traitlines. It doesnt typically run any stability (ok...there is Lahaar...), and does run Twist of Fate as his stunbreak, leaving one utility spot for lightning flash (which doesnt stunbreak, and is only 900 range), and one spot which they are "free" to choose... personally, i still believe "unravel" is the most logical choice.
    Its condi removal (8) is also his heal skill, which sounds nice...till you realize its a 2 3/4 sec channeled skill, easily interruptable.

    We dont have stealth. We dont have your evades (on staff). We dont have something like shortbow as a secondary weapon. We dont hit anyone for 13k by pressing a single button, aside of literaly all stars in universe aligne (or fighting a keep lord with all buffs up).
    Its a little bit hard to have sympathy with your "hard life", as a thief.

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Coeruleum.9164 said:
    There isn't too much stealth, but I do agree it could be linked to stats more. One thing I think I would like instead of more reveals is a perception stat that lets you see stealthed players within a certain range if their stealth isn't as good as your perception. I've played other games with stealth that have this and most people took stealth and one-shotted people and I took the perception stat and one-shotted them. In this game you can still kind of do that if you know what thieves' and mesmers' moves are and you're fighting, but you can't just walk within 10 feet of a thief roamer in WvW and your mystical perception finds them and this makes me not feel like a real wizard.

    Age of Conan had something like perception that was proximity and lighting based. I wouldn't mind that, as long as there's some visual disruption so I can mask direction or land a Stealth Attack quickly when I'm deliberate about it but I'm also likely to load up a ridiculous opener will few tells and build for ports since the increasing cost of stealthing would come with higher risk.

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL] & [SD]

  • @Hadi.6025 said:
    This is a learn to play issue lol

    Yeah, it's learn to play issue for all those thiefs that can't play without perma stealtth

  • Hadi.6025Hadi.6025 Member ✭✭✭

    @aleksandar.5642 said:

    @Hadi.6025 said:
    This is a learn to play issue lol

    Yeah, it's learn to play issue for all those thiefs that can't play without perma stealtth

    Bro just get their health to 0 duh.

    Not the Leader of " I will make you [QQ] ", just some how a mascot who everyone loves to hate.

  • @Hadi.6025 said:

    @aleksandar.5642 said:

    @Hadi.6025 said:
    This is a learn to play issue lol

    Yeah, it's learn to play issue for all those thiefs that can't play without perma stealtth

    Bro just get their health to 0 duh.

    Duh, zero stealth - zero health

  • GDchiaScrub.3241GDchiaScrub.3241 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Play as ANET intended, and sit near objectives. We gotta protect our PPT for Lord Commander Indo during these dark times while maintaining a 6 feet distance from one another of course (or 2 meters in civilized societies).

    D:

    Holy Warriors of [Kazo] following Kazo doctrine guided by, Our Lord and Commander, Zudo in the holy Trinity of Him and his two firm glutes.

  • Preventing stealth stomps in WvW should be the first thing ,its an offensive action and shouldn`t permit a player to remain stealthed esp that bovine scat teleport stealth stomp.
    Prevent players stealthing if taking damage , cut durations, limit the times you can stealth within a 15 second time frame , prevent revealed players stripping that reveal

  • Kylden Ar.3724Kylden Ar.3724 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 18, 2020

    @Jeydra.4386 said:
    Stealth is dumb. If they are full Zerker and can be killed while unstealthed then yeah, it wouldn't be a problem. Unfortunately we also have builds where they do enough damage to kill you (even if they kill you slowly), but also cannot be killed because of the stealth. Especially silly are the builds which spend what feels like half the time stealthed and the remaining half dodging. Even sillier are the thieves that hide in a keep effectively forever, tapping it constantly, because they can never be revealed long enough to be killed (especially given all the ports & dodges the class has). I've been trolled at something like 6v1 odds by a thief before, which shows just how stupid stealth is. Yes, they can't kill us, but we can't kill them either in spite of the huge numbers advantage.

    If people want to keep stealth, fine, but make other changes such that the thief can actually die. We could for example have much greater cooldowns on stealth (this is why Mesmer aren't a problem even though they can also stealth), some mechanic such that if you stealth X times in short order each new stealth lasts shorter, etc.

    Or, do like every other RPG ever and separate STATS from your gear and have it by class. Then you can't build for tanky theives.

    Cause that's totally this game.

    (Though honestly, I would rather not have stats from gear. I hate that. Totally divorces it from the RPG elements, but the fact is this game engine would require a TOTAL rework to do that)

    @kash.9213 said:

    @Balkarrie Legacy.9175 said:
    Preventing stealth stomps in WvW should be the first thing ,its an offensive action and shouldn`t permit a player to remain stealthed esp that bovine scat teleport stealth stomp.
    Prevent players stealthing if taking damage , cut durations, limit the times you can stealth within a 15 second time frame , prevent revealed players stripping that reveal

    How many handicaps do you need, can't stealth while taking damage, you have to feel some shame for saying something like that. Why limit how often a thief can stealth when something like Backstab already has a CD? Sure, prevent thieves from stripping reveal, but also limit the amount of reveals on a map. Ya, stealth stomp is dumb, why not tackle that instead demanding a profession be stripped down to a free kill for you? Need anything else handed to you while we're at it?

    Dude, I'm pretty sure these folks all play Warrior or Guardian or Necro and the like, and simply want the game to be more and more like Fortnite which is basically cartoonish Call of Duty, which means, "I saw you first I win! Ha!"

    How many times we gotta tell you GRIND IS NOT CONTENT there ANet?

    Leader of Tyrian Adventure Corp [TACO], [RaW][TACO] Alliance, Kaineng.

  • Vlad Morbius.1759Vlad Morbius.1759 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 18, 2020

    @Hadi.6025 said:
    This is a learn to play issue lol

    Brilliant argument to the facts laid out, good stuff lol! All the excuses in the world doesn't change the fact this is broken and needs to be changed, stealth stomps, perma invisibility, poke poke stealth burst away, 1500 range and stealth, trap/burst stealth / repeat and if you're in danger stealth and run away.

  • AikijinX.6258AikijinX.6258 Member ✭✭✭

    Invisibility has gotten out of hand, as the thread suggested. The only classes that even warrant stealth are Thief and Mesmer. Maybe engineer to a lesser degree like 1-2 second stealth max. But the amount of classes that have an ability to access and utilize stealth is beyond me. Change Guardian "Traps" to Guardian Symbols or something, and Rangers traps to something else, so they aren't eligible for trapper runes that grant stealth. It's absurd that these classes could ever gain access to stealth.

    That being said, none of them are even a threat to me, i'll smack them. But having these classes Steal our unique class design was a bad move.

  • BeepBoopBop.5403BeepBoopBop.5403 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sleepwalker.1398 said:

    See a someone who stealths alot coming to u, dude can you wait..i need to quickly buy some target painter.
    If that fails.....dude there is a sentry up, can you follow me there and fight.
    Well if that fails also....then, dude can you wait abit, i just took this tower and need to upgrade it and put watchtower tactic. can you come fight me after that?

    You mean I expect you to use things in the game? For the purpose they were intended? Why yes, yes I do.

  • Vlad Morbius.1759Vlad Morbius.1759 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 19, 2020

    @BeepBoopBop.5403 said:
    You mean I expect you to use things in the game? For the purpose they were intended? Why yes, yes I do.

    Those things are situational at best and clearly make very little difference for 95% of the stealth abuse discussed here so although they are valid they don't pertain to the crux of the problem. This needs to be addressed, period.

  • noot.8641noot.8641 Member ✭✭✭

    I don’t mind stealth, as long it’s not spammable.
    Like SA traitline from thieves needs to be reworked, it’s too kitten broken.
    You do some dmg vs SA thief, if hes deadeye he just dodges and goes stealth, removes condi’s and heals himself. Thief just waits in stealth till he is full again, and the cycle repeats.
    This is totally not a fun gameplay.
    Make stealth only last 2 or 3 seconds max imo, unless it’s a skill on cd like shadow’s refuge.

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @noot.8641 said:
    I don’t mind stealth, as long it’s not spammable.
    Like SA traitline from thieves needs to be reworked, it’s too kitten broken.
    You do some dmg vs SA thief, if hes deadeye he just dodges and goes stealth, removes condi’s and heals himself. Thief just waits in stealth till he is full again, and the cycle repeats.
    This is totally not a fun gameplay.
    Make stealth only last 2 or 3 seconds max imo, unless it’s a skill on cd like shadow’s refuge.

    I've suggested around 4 or so seconds stealth window to use Stealth Attacks, I don't think it's needed at this point though, while still allowing longer duration stealth for map travel and scouting. People in this forum would rather have no stealth and gamble with some unknown gimmick mechanic that would have to make up for it with possibly no tells like stealth has and likely something without the stipulation of having to come out of that state to do anything meaningful.

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL] & [SD]

  • Jugglemonkey.8741Jugglemonkey.8741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @AikijinX.6258 said:
    Invisibility has gotten out of hand, as the thread suggested. The only classes that even warrant stealth are Thief and Mesmer. Maybe engineer to a lesser degree like 1-2 second stealth max. But the amount of classes that have an ability to access and utilize stealth is beyond me. Change Guardian "Traps" to Guardian Symbols or something, and Rangers traps to something else, so they aren't eligible for trapper runes that grant stealth. It's absurd that these classes could ever gain access to stealth.

    That being said, none of them are even a threat to me, i'll smack them. But having these classes Steal our unique class design was a bad move.

    If the stealth from trapper runes is problematic then it would be easier to just change what trapper runes do, considering thief can't even use them anymore due to traps being reworked into preparations. No disagreement with the rest of what you said tho.

    @kash.9213 said:

    @noot.8641 said:
    I don’t mind stealth, as long it’s not spammable.
    Like SA traitline from thieves needs to be reworked, it’s too kitten broken.
    You do some dmg vs SA thief, if hes deadeye he just dodges and goes stealth, removes condi’s and heals himself. Thief just waits in stealth till he is full again, and the cycle repeats.
    This is totally not a fun gameplay.
    Make stealth only last 2 or 3 seconds max imo, unless it’s a skill on cd like shadow’s refuge.

    I've suggested around 4 or so seconds stealth window to use Stealth Attacks, I don't think it's needed at this point though, while still allowing longer duration stealth for map travel and scouting. People in this forum would rather have no stealth and gamble with some unknown gimmick mechanic that would have to make up for it with possibly no tells like stealth has and likely something without the stipulation of having to come out of that state to do anything meaningful.

    Exactly. Removing stealth outright is like opening pandora's box, you'll have to give the thief something else to compensate. If you ever thought consume plasma was OP in a thief/mesmer duel, imagine what happens when that thief has constant access to stability and protection alongside blocks etc regardless of matchup.

    @Sleepwalker.1398 said:

    See a someone who stealths alot coming to u, dude can you wait..i need to quickly buy some target painter.
    If that fails.....dude there is a sentry up, can you follow me there and fight.
    Well if that fails also....then, dude can you wait abit, i just took this tower and need to upgrade it and put watchtower tactic. can you come fight me after that?

    All of these things do work against stealth thieves. If you insist on not using any of the stuff that exists in game to your advantage, it's like saying condi is OP because you don't bother running any cleanses. If that would be a L2P issue, I'm not sure how this isn't.

    @Balkarrie Legacy.9175 said:
    Preventing stealth stomps in WvW should be the first thing ,its an offensive action and shouldn`t permit a player to remain stealthed esp that bovine scat teleport stealth stomp.
    Prevent players stealthing if taking damage , cut durations, limit the times you can stealth within a 15 second time frame , prevent revealed players stripping that reveal

    So what about stomping using mist form/elixir S/stability/function gyro/stances etc? Those are ok because you can see the enemy stomping but (in most cases) do nothing about it, but stealth stomp isn't ok even though one AoE CC on the downed will stop it? Really?

    @Balkarrie Legacy.9175 said:

    @Hadi.6025 said:

    @aleksandar.5642 said:

    @Hadi.6025 said:
    This is a learn to play issue lol

    Yeah, it's learn to play issue for all those thiefs that can't play without perma stealtth

    Bro just get their health to 0 duh.

    Lets see you play without your bovine scat never ending stealths and evades you have keyed into a sngle macro

    Why would I bind multiple evades or stealths into a single macro? Evades don't stack so a macro would be pointless, stealth doesn't need a macro (in fact, very little in this game does) and even if it did, binding it to a macro means I'd blow everything at once and would have nothing left when it expires, meaning a quick death. This comment alone implies you have never actually played thief.

    Critical Kit, Deadeye.
    “If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.” - John Steinbeck

  • shiri.4257shiri.4257 Member ✭✭✭✭

    make shield gen skill 1 reveal stealth around 600 area. spam the light!

    Spectre [VII] - Wood League Champion. Making "fight guilds" stack on higher tiers since 2013.
    Michelin rated WvW guild since 2015. The gold standard. Never transferred, never reformed, adapting and reloading with or without Anet.

  • Svarty.8019Svarty.8019 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 20, 2020

    @shiri.4257 said:
    make shield gen skill 1 reveal stealth around 600 area. spam the light!

    .... and make it portable.

    I suppose they could put a perma-reveal on a turtle banner or something?

    Oops, player-idea, it'll never get implemented now. Doh!

    This post contains my opinion.

  • I have never asked for stealth to be removed, I said it was overpowered and excessive and becoming a major crutch for too many classes which needed to be be balanced and most certainly have some cost associated with using it.

  • @BeepBoopBop.5403 said:

    No it doesn't need to be addressed, because it has been fine for 8 years

    Pretty much like downstate, i guess. :)

  • GDchiaScrub.3241GDchiaScrub.3241 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vortigern.1987 said:

    @BeepBoopBop.5403 said:

    No it doesn't need to be addressed, because it has been fine for 8 years

    Pretty much like downstate, i guess. :)

    WRONG! Downstate is a partially egalitarian game mechanic given to everybody, and invisibility is not. Reeeeeeee!

    D:

    Holy Warriors of [Kazo] following Kazo doctrine guided by, Our Lord and Commander, Zudo in the holy Trinity of Him and his two firm glutes.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @AikijinX.6258 said:
    The Problem is that Anet gave Stealth access to almost every class, when it was supposed to be unique to Thieves and I suppose Mesmers. Every class has some type of uniqueness to them, while ironically Thieves have had their uniqueness in Stealth stolen as well as heavily neutered, with all these abilities placing Reveal and Marked on them.

    Too much stealth- People complain
    Too much evade- People complain
    Too much damage- People complain
    Too much mobility- People complain
    Too many teleports- People complain
    Too much blind- People complain
    Too many spammable skills- People complain
    Too much access to poison- People complain
    Too much condition capability- People complain
    Ability to Teleport allies- People Complain

    People need to chill.

    No, not to every class. Revenant, warrior and guard dont have as much evades and they sure dont have access to stealth. (Granted im not saying they should, bare with me for one moment please <3) But Engineer has it, Ranger has it, Thief, messmer ? Now thief and mess I get, its their thing with messmer having clones and thief having steal as their unique special thing. But why does ranger have it? Shouldn't they be the designated reveal due to pet and scent? Would make them far more desired as they'd be able to counter stealth (Which logically makes sense, given they have an animal companion.) Like maybe for ranger, stealth just does not work because of the pet. But if the pet is down than it will? Makes thieves and messmers need to adapt to that and offers ranger a special role, where as now all they are and have been is "SoUlBeAsT go pew pew pew" and "I am the longest of range".

    Engineer in my opinion shouldn't have stealth either... its like a band-aid not an actual fix to kit issues that may exist for the class. Stealth is not some blanket you can throw on something because you, yourself cant figure out what to offer the class. What next? Stealthing warriors/guards blowing you up? Revenant having perma-stealth? No. Let messmer and thief have their stuff, give the others unique ways in handling it. (Rev could work just like demon hunter from wow, where they have a mechanic that allows them to peer through the mists to see stealthed targets. Warrior could have sixth sense which occasionally would allow for foot-step pulses, when a stealthed enemy is nearby and guardian could have "lights sight" where they can every so often pulse light to reveal targets. Kinda like a signal flare. There are unique ways around it...)

    We need more diversity for classes, and more unique goodies LOCKED to classes to make them different. Stop giving everyones toys to everyone, give them their own toys with their own goodies and their OWN gimmicks. We do not need every class to have the ability to do what another does, we need classes to bring more to the table and be more unique. (How long, in PvE end-game has it been where banner slave is the ideal warrior build? I know its for raids/strikes but STILL WHY.)

    I do agree people need to chill out, but A-net needs to fix their design and give classes their own... well "tools" rather than just dumping them like band-aids to fix a problem prevalent from core on. I can see it now, everyone will get stealth in their kit next expansion lmfao then no one would have a right to complain, even though a good majority don't want it. I mean my thief build doesn't even utilize stealth at all and it works....

    A good example of a unique thing, brought by an E-spec is barrier. It was necro's thing.... and then they gave it to literally EVERYONE. WHY!? It was the scourges special thing to make them unique, but now everyone has it. Same with Alacrity which was messmers thing... you just dump it on rev and make it even EASIER for rev to provide it than messmer? Let the classes be special. Homogenization is not good...

  • subversiontwo.7501subversiontwo.7501 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 20, 2020

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    Now thief and mess I get, its their thing with messmer having clones and thief having steal as their unique special thing. But why does ranger have it? Shouldn't they be the designated reveal due to pet and scent? Would make them far more desired as they'd be able to counter stealth (Which logically makes sense, given they have an animal companion.) Like maybe for ranger, stealth just does not work because of the pet. But if the pet is down than it will? Makes thieves and messmers need to adapt to that and offers ranger a special role, where as now all they are and have been is "SoUlBeAsT go pew pew pew" and "I am the longest of range".

    It's because you are looking at this too much from a solo perspective but it is a multiplayer game.

    For example, while Rangers always had the stealth shot on LB3, all the other stealth it has is group-utility which came in a group kit with HoT to make the class more attractive for larger scale gameplay. That ArenaNet later has failed to sufficiently deliver on that and even squandered what it had is another discussion. On a concept level all that stealth was stealth group utility. The same goes for the Engineer. It always had bomb-smoke blasts and elixir S but the stealth gyro came with a rather interesting and unique group-support mechanic that later was abandoned. It was streamlined out of the game. Which on one hand is understandable but on the other hand is a shame because it was mostly a positive addition that made things more diverse (it hid numbers rather than hiding players initially, letting players see the gyro but not what was under it).

    It could of course be argued that those classes which had little presence and appeal in larger scale back in 2014 could have been given other forms of group utility but back then that sort of group utility was pretty uncommon and still is to some degree today. Group stealthing at larger scale is often rarely used to its potential even if it does see somewhat sporadic common use. It is hard to come up with new and more unique stuff - and if ArenaNet was to find some successful quality new design in WvW this is hardly the place where it is most needed.

    Again, much of the current ongoing discussions about downstate, stealth and support in general suffers from the amount of rather inexperienced players on ganking builds and classes talking rather aggressively in them. At the same time, that is not too surprising either as that is reflective of the content at smaller scale today or the rather large content differences between EU and NA or different tiers. While that is down to player behaviour it is also a question of the size of the remaining playerbases and much more about what people do differently than what people can do. What people can do (and thus do somewhere) is far more important for a balance discussion than what people do not do because content is missing.

    Anyway, stealth isn't as much of an issue overall as it is an issue tied to the Deadeye (to some degree the Daredevil, but not as much of a problem).

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 20, 2020

    @subversiontwo.7501 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    Now thief and mess I get, its their thing with messmer having clones and thief having steal as their unique special thing. But why does ranger have it? Shouldn't they be the designated reveal due to pet and scent? Would make them far more desired as they'd be able to counter stealth (Which logically makes sense, given they have an animal companion.) Like maybe for ranger, stealth just does not work because of the pet. But if the pet is down than it will? Makes thieves and messmers need to adapt to that and offers ranger a special role, where as now all they are and have been is "SoUlBeAsT go pew pew pew" and "I am the longest of range".

    It's because you are looking at this too much from a solo perspective but it is a multiplayer game.

    For example, while Rangers always had the stealth shot on LB3, all the other stealth it has is group-utility which came in a group kit with HoT to make the class more attractive for larger scale gameplay. That ArenaNet later has failed to sufficiently deliver on that and even squandered what it had is another discussion. On a concept level all that stealth was stealth group utility. The same goes for the Engineer. It always had bomb-smoke blasts and elixir S but the stealth gyro came with a rather interesting and unique group-support mechanic that later was abandoned. It was streamlined out of the game. Which on one hand is understandable but on the other hand is a shame because it was mostly a positive addition that made things more diverse (it hid numbers rather than hiding players initially, letting players see the gyro but not what was under it).

    It could of course be argued that those classes which had little presence and appeal in larger scale back in 2014 could have been given other forms of group utility but back then that sort of group utility was pretty uncommon and still is to some degree today. Group stealthing at larger scale is often rarely used to its potential even if it does see somewhat sporadic common use. It is hard to come up with new and more unique stuff - and if ArenaNet was to find some successful quality new design in WvW this is hardly the place where it is most needed.

    Again, much of the current ongoing discussions about downstate, stealth and support in general suffers from the amount of rather inexperienced players on ganking builds and classes talking rather aggressively in them. At the same time, that is not too surprising either as that is reflective of the content at smaller scale today or the rather large content differences between EU and NA or different tiers. While that is down to player behaviour it is also a question of the size of the remaining playerbases and much more about what people do differently than what people can do. What people can do (and thus do somewhere) is far more important for a balance discussion than what people do not do because content is missing.

    Anyway, stealth isn't as much of an issue overall as it is an issue tied to the Deadeye (to some degree the Daredevil, but not as much of a problem).

    Im a solo player most of the time, nothing in this game has ever enticed me to not be? In fact most of it encourages one to do so. I am apart of a single guild which is my family guild and I run reset with them, and run with them when they WvW. But thats besides the point. NOT every class needs to have stealth, they need ways around and to deal with it. All classes need to bring something unique to the table, handing revenant alacrity is the equivalent of handing messmer battle-scars or Kalla's fervor. There is a reason why messmer had it, another class doesn't necessarily need it.

    So when it comes down to design, what next? A stealth warrior? That would go over well I assume. Or how about guardian with death shroud? I draw the line at every class having EVERY tool; They dont need it. At the point in which all tools are shared acrossed all classes you might as well just merge them all together into one class and call it a day because essentially the more boons/buffs/mechanics shared between classes the more likely they will begin to feel the same. I like the classes I play BECAUSE of what they are and their uniqueness, I dont want thief to feel like a squishier warrior. And I dont want warrior to feel like a tanky thief, I want them to be unique and different to one another that its almost like a different game because of the gameplay loop. But the more and more that gets trickled down to classes (Im sure we will see much, much more of this going forward.) The less incentive I have to play other classes.

    I use "I" a lot in this because I dont wana assume something for another person. But I will say I feel Im not the only one who feels this way, tell me when you made your first character did you do it because someone told you X is more viable than Y or did you do it because you saw the name, color and played it for a bit and went "Yea I like this?" Because classes I used to love (Warrior, rev... even ranger to some extent) all have begun to feel diluted and lame. Ever since the balance patch a while back I've found they are just less and less fun to play. Key word is fun which does not equal balanced... sometimes you need to sacrifice pure balance for the rule of "fun". Because once something is no longer fun, rewarding and exciting that becomes the moment when its dropped in favor of something else. But there are players like me out there who will dabble for a time, but eventually (this is what happened with WoW and I after legion) they quit.

    I am one person, I dont matter. But I highly doubt im the only one who feels this way; One can become ten really quick. The more mechanics and benefits you share between classes the more people will just go "meh" and be done. Especially when X does better than Y when Y was the initial one to bring forth such a mechanic, it then begs the question as to why Y needs to exist in that state at all or even be applicable.

  • Virdo.1540Virdo.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

    stealth needs to be unstackable in duration ,like superspeed.

    together with that, reveal should make players immune to becoming invisible, not just undo invis after some seconds. Perma-Reveal,like from new taken keeps) still opens the way to perma-stealth.

  • GDchiaScrub.3241GDchiaScrub.3241 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Virdo.1540 said:
    stealth needs to be unstackable in duration ,like superspeed.

    together with that, reveal should make players immune to becoming invisible, not just undo invis after some seconds. Perma-Reveal,like from new taken keeps) still opens the way to perma-stealth.

    Revealed already does this. I think you are confusing it with Marked.

    D:

    Holy Warriors of [Kazo] following Kazo doctrine guided by, Our Lord and Commander, Zudo in the holy Trinity of Him and his two firm glutes.

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @AikijinX.6258 said:
    The Problem is that Anet gave Stealth access to almost every class, when it was supposed to be unique to Thieves and I suppose Mesmers. Every class has some type of uniqueness to them, while ironically Thieves have had their uniqueness in Stealth stolen as well as heavily neutered, with all these abilities placing Reveal and Marked on them.

    Too much stealth- People complain
    Too much evade- People complain
    Too much damage- People complain
    Too much mobility- People complain
    Too many teleports- People complain
    Too much blind- People complain
    Too many spammable skills- People complain
    Too much access to poison- People complain
    Too much condition capability- People complain
    Ability to Teleport allies- People Complain

    People need to chill.

    Huh? Rangers have more rights to stealth than mesmers and engis...dunno if you noticed but rangers have access to stealth in every single game, from single player RPG to hundreds other MMOs out there , the ranger archetype have had access to stealth for the last 40 years of videogame or so...heck even in fantasy movies, rangers are known for the stealth abilities

    https://aion.fandom.com/wiki/Stealth#:~:text=Stealth is a skill that,two forms: Basic and Advanced.
    https://wow.gamepedia.com/Camouflage_(hunter_ability
    https://www.bladeandsoul.com/en/news/zen-archer-class-preview/

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranger_(character_class)

    So sorry to break your bubble but stealth in no game is exclusive to thieves/rogues

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 20, 2020

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:

    @Turamarth.3248 said:

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    speed: 10%
    damage: 5%
    no blinks, teleports etc

    while in stealth.

    What would then be the use of stealth? Considering that stealth doesn't prevent any damage to yourself it would just turn you into a sitting duck. You might as well just use Alt+F4 if you want to lose a fight.

    well, it would be better than currently where stealth using classes can engage and disengage at will dishing out insane amounts of damage and just run if anything goes wrong.

    No, it wouldn't. It would be worthless for nearly anything other than permastelathing around points, which is the opposite of what should be the result of any change applied to stealth.

  • Svarty.8019Svarty.8019 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @GDchiaScrub.3241 said:

    @Virdo.1540 said:
    stealth needs to be unstackable in duration ,like superspeed.

    together with that, reveal should make players immune to becoming invisible, not just undo invis after some seconds. Perma-Reveal,like from new taken keeps) still opens the way to perma-stealth.

    Revealed already does this. I think you are confusing it with Marked.

    D:

    Since some things do both (Sentries) I get confused. Target painter [&trap] just says it marks people - I thought that was supposed to be an anti-stealth device?

    This post contains my opinion.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Svarty.8019 said:

    @GDchiaScrub.3241 said:

    @Virdo.1540 said:
    stealth needs to be unstackable in duration ,like superspeed.

    together with that, reveal should make players immune to becoming invisible, not just undo invis after some seconds. Perma-Reveal,like from new taken keeps) still opens the way to perma-stealth.

    Revealed already does this. I think you are confusing it with Marked.

    D:

    Since some things do both (Sentries) I get confused. Target painter [&trap] just says it marks people - I thought that was supposed to be an anti-stealth device?

    If you don't understand basic game mechanics, go ahead and read the wiki before you try starting a discussion about them :(

  • GDchiaScrub.3241GDchiaScrub.3241 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 20, 2020

    @Svarty.8019 said:

    @GDchiaScrub.3241 said:

    @Virdo.1540 said:
    stealth needs to be unstackable in duration ,like superspeed.

    together with that, reveal should make players immune to becoming invisible, not just undo invis after some seconds. Perma-Reveal,like from new taken keeps) still opens the way to perma-stealth.

    Revealed already does this. I think you are confusing it with Marked.

    D:

    Since some things do both (Sentries) I get confused. Target painter [&trap] just says it marks people - I thought that was supposed to be an anti-stealth device?

    I ain't here to fix ANET's descriptions. They all contribute to being "anti-stealth," but "Marked" merely requires extra steps.

    Step 1: You get "Marked" by things
    Step 2: If you go into stealth, while under the effect "Marked" you then become "Detected!".
    Step 3: Detected! causes you to become Revealed if you are in stealth for more than 2 seconds during the Detected! effect. (I don't know if this means you get revealed instantly by trap/painter due to probably being in stealth for 2 seconds or longer anyway)

    Your confusion is warranted because it's sloppy, but I suspect the "Detected!" is suppose to give you warning.

    Holy Warriors of [Kazo] following Kazo doctrine guided by, Our Lord and Commander, Zudo in the holy Trinity of Him and his two firm glutes.

  • GDchiaScrub.3241GDchiaScrub.3241 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 20, 2020

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Svarty.8019 said:

    @GDchiaScrub.3241 said:

    @Virdo.1540 said:
    stealth needs to be unstackable in duration ,like superspeed.

    together with that, reveal should make players immune to becoming invisible, not just undo invis after some seconds. Perma-Reveal,like from new taken keeps) still opens the way to perma-stealth.

    Revealed already does this. I think you are confusing it with Marked.

    D:

    Since some things do both (Sentries) I get confused. Target painter [&trap] just says it marks people - I thought that was supposed to be an anti-stealth device?

    If you don't understand basic game mechanics, go ahead and read the wiki before you try starting a discussion about them :(

    It isn't actually basic game mechanics considering I don't recall half of these things being present in PvE or even Spvp (though I haven't cared for that game mode since like 2018. Stop being so quick to pounce.

    Marked, Detected! and Revealed are three dumb steps to produce one mechanic (Anti-stealth) that simply sees little use outside of WvW.

    Holy Warriors of [Kazo] following Kazo doctrine guided by, Our Lord and Commander, Zudo in the holy Trinity of Him and his two firm glutes.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 20, 2020

    @GDchiaScrub.3241 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Svarty.8019 said:

    @GDchiaScrub.3241 said:

    @Virdo.1540 said:
    stealth needs to be unstackable in duration ,like superspeed.

    together with that, reveal should make players immune to becoming invisible, not just undo invis after some seconds. Perma-Reveal,like from new taken keeps) still opens the way to perma-stealth.

    Revealed already does this. I think you are confusing it with Marked.

    D:

    Since some things do both (Sentries) I get confused. Target painter [&trap] just says it marks people - I thought that was supposed to be an anti-stealth device?

    If you don't understand basic game mechanics, go ahead and read the wiki before you try starting a discussion about them :(

    It isn't actually basic game mechanics considering I don't recall half of these things being present in PvE or even Spvp (though I haven't cared for that game mode since like 2018. Stop being so quick to pounce.

    Marked, Detected! and Revealed are three dumb steps to produce one mechanic (Anti-stealth) that simply sees little use outside of WvW.

    It's a weird argument to make that it's not a basic mechanic if it's not in gamemode1, but it is in gamemode2. Seems basic enough to me to call it that.

    But yeah, I think there are better ways to balance stealth "around itself".

  • GDchiaScrub.3241GDchiaScrub.3241 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @GDchiaScrub.3241 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Svarty.8019 said:

    @GDchiaScrub.3241 said:

    @Virdo.1540 said:
    stealth needs to be unstackable in duration ,like superspeed.

    together with that, reveal should make players immune to becoming invisible, not just undo invis after some seconds. Perma-Reveal,like from new taken keeps) still opens the way to perma-stealth.

    Revealed already does this. I think you are confusing it with Marked.

    D:

    Since some things do both (Sentries) I get confused. Target painter [&trap] just says it marks people - I thought that was supposed to be an anti-stealth device?

    If you don't understand basic game mechanics, go ahead and read the wiki before you try starting a discussion about them :(

    It isn't actually basic game mechanics considering I don't recall half of these things being present in PvE or even Spvp (though I haven't cared for that game mode since like 2018. Stop being so quick to pounce.

    Marked, Detected! and Revealed are three dumb steps to produce one mechanic (Anti-stealth) that simply sees little use outside of WvW.

    It's a weird argument to make that it's not a basic mechanic if it's not in gamemode1, but it is in gamemode2. Seems basic enough to me to call it that.

    But yeah, I think there are better ways to balance stealth "around itself".

    It's not weird. It's just semantics between what each of us considers a "basic mechanic." It'd be more accurate to say universal mechanic I guess, but it only feels like scratching the bottom of the barrel if the mechanic is present in "game mode 1" but not game mode 2 (PvE) and game mode 3 (Spvp). Then of course the sub-systems of other two game modes. Regardless, WvW has the illustrious position of being the minority and not the normal e.g. not "Basic." I mean. I don't think anyone in this forum would want to be called basic! Omg. Absolutely rude.

    D:

    Holy Warriors of [Kazo] following Kazo doctrine guided by, Our Lord and Commander, Zudo in the holy Trinity of Him and his two firm glutes.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 20, 2020

    @GDchiaScrub.3241 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @GDchiaScrub.3241 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Svarty.8019 said:

    @GDchiaScrub.3241 said:

    @Virdo.1540 said:
    stealth needs to be unstackable in duration ,like superspeed.

    together with that, reveal should make players immune to becoming invisible, not just undo invis after some seconds. Perma-Reveal,like from new taken keeps) still opens the way to perma-stealth.

    Revealed already does this. I think you are confusing it with Marked.

    D:

    Since some things do both (Sentries) I get confused. Target painter [&trap] just says it marks people - I thought that was supposed to be an anti-stealth device?

    If you don't understand basic game mechanics, go ahead and read the wiki before you try starting a discussion about them :(

    It isn't actually basic game mechanics considering I don't recall half of these things being present in PvE or even Spvp (though I haven't cared for that game mode since like 2018. Stop being so quick to pounce.

    Marked, Detected! and Revealed are three dumb steps to produce one mechanic (Anti-stealth) that simply sees little use outside of WvW.

    It's a weird argument to make that it's not a basic mechanic if it's not in gamemode1, but it is in gamemode2. Seems basic enough to me to call it that.

    But yeah, I think there are better ways to balance stealth "around itself".

    It's not weird. It's just semantics between what each of us considers a "basic mechanic." It'd be more accurate to say universal mechanic I guess, but it only feels like scratching the bottom of the barrel if the mechanic is present in "game mode 1" but not game mode 2 (PvE) and game mode 3 (Spvp). Then of course the sub-systems of other two game modes. Regardless, WvW has the illustrious position of being the minority and not the normal e.g. not "Basic." I mean. I don't think anyone in this forum would want to be called basic! Omg. Absolutely rude.

    We're in the subforum of wvw mode, so expecting basic knowledge about its basic mechanics should be expected. And they're not some kind of hidden (ayy) effects, so calling them basic seems fair enough.

    btw I'm not sure why you say it'd be "more accurate to say universal", when it clearly wouldn't be as you noticed immediately after. :(

  • GDchiaScrub.3241GDchiaScrub.3241 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @GDchiaScrub.3241 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @GDchiaScrub.3241 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Svarty.8019 said:

    @GDchiaScrub.3241 said:

    @Virdo.1540 said:
    stealth needs to be unstackable in duration ,like superspeed.

    together with that, reveal should make players immune to becoming invisible, not just undo invis after some seconds. Perma-Reveal,like from new taken keeps) still opens the way to perma-stealth.

    Revealed already does this. I think you are confusing it with Marked.

    D:

    Since some things do both (Sentries) I get confused. Target painter [&trap] just says it marks people - I thought that was supposed to be an anti-stealth device?

    If you don't understand basic game mechanics, go ahead and read the wiki before you try starting a discussion about them :(

    It isn't actually basic game mechanics considering I don't recall half of these things being present in PvE or even Spvp (though I haven't cared for that game mode since like 2018. Stop being so quick to pounce.

    Marked, Detected! and Revealed are three dumb steps to produce one mechanic (Anti-stealth) that simply sees little use outside of WvW.

    It's a weird argument to make that it's not a basic mechanic if it's not in gamemode1, but it is in gamemode2. Seems basic enough to me to call it that.

    But yeah, I think there are better ways to balance stealth "around itself".

    It's not weird. It's just semantics between what each of us considers a "basic mechanic." It'd be more accurate to say universal mechanic I guess, but it only feels like scratching the bottom of the barrel if the mechanic is present in "game mode 1" but not game mode 2 (PvE) and game mode 3 (Spvp). Then of course the sub-systems of other two game modes. Regardless, WvW has the illustrious position of being the minority and not the normal e.g. not "Basic." I mean. I don't think anyone in this forum would want to be called basic! Omg. Absolutely rude.

    We're in the subforum of wvw mode, so expecting basic knowledge about its basic mechanics should be expected. And they're not some kind of hidden (ayy) effects, so calling them basic seems fair enough.

    Forums...are meant for discussion. If people lack knowledge they can ask in particular sub-forums if it helps find the matching audience. I would only expect people keep their questions relevant to the category. For example, don't ask about Raid Bosses in the WvW forums. Why would we disallow basic questions to be asked here? Are we really going down this road? Is the basic knowledge of what forums should be used for lost here?

    btw I'm not sure why you say it'd be "more accurate to say universal", when it clearly wouldn't be as you noticed immediately after. :(

    "more accurate to say universal I guess"... I had hoped that would signify I wasn't giving a strong definitive statement when attempting another word because listing countless synonyms might not be productive. But. As I said. We're just getting into to semantics. Of course I forget that you can't read my mind, and I recall you falling into a similar situation in the past resulting in bickering over word choice. So. To simplify.

    You use Basic Mechanics (as you say) per game mode. Scouts, guild upgrades, siege equipment, etc. is basic to you in this sub-forum.

    I used Basic Mechanics for the whole game. Mechanics shared across game modes is basic to me: downstate, stealth (invisibility), classes

    There really isn't anything more to be said here. Semantics and context. Forums and discussion.

    D:

    Holy Warriors of [Kazo] following Kazo doctrine guided by, Our Lord and Commander, Zudo in the holy Trinity of Him and his two firm glutes.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 21, 2020

    @GDchiaScrub.3241 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @GDchiaScrub.3241 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @GDchiaScrub.3241 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Svarty.8019 said:

    @GDchiaScrub.3241 said:

    @Virdo.1540 said:
    stealth needs to be unstackable in duration ,like superspeed.

    together with that, reveal should make players immune to becoming invisible, not just undo invis after some seconds. Perma-Reveal,like from new taken keeps) still opens the way to perma-stealth.

    Revealed already does this. I think you are confusing it with Marked.

    D:

    Since some things do both (Sentries) I get confused. Target painter [&trap] just says it marks people - I thought that was supposed to be an anti-stealth device?

    If you don't understand basic game mechanics, go ahead and read the wiki before you try starting a discussion about them :(

    It isn't actually basic game mechanics considering I don't recall half of these things being present in PvE or even Spvp (though I haven't cared for that game mode since like 2018. Stop being so quick to pounce.

    Marked, Detected! and Revealed are three dumb steps to produce one mechanic (Anti-stealth) that simply sees little use outside of WvW.

    It's a weird argument to make that it's not a basic mechanic if it's not in gamemode1, but it is in gamemode2. Seems basic enough to me to call it that.

    But yeah, I think there are better ways to balance stealth "around itself".

    It's not weird. It's just semantics between what each of us considers a "basic mechanic." It'd be more accurate to say universal mechanic I guess, but it only feels like scratching the bottom of the barrel if the mechanic is present in "game mode 1" but not game mode 2 (PvE) and game mode 3 (Spvp). Then of course the sub-systems of other two game modes. Regardless, WvW has the illustrious position of being the minority and not the normal e.g. not "Basic." I mean. I don't think anyone in this forum would want to be called basic! Omg. Absolutely rude.

    We're in the subforum of wvw mode, so expecting basic knowledge about its basic mechanics should be expected. And they're not some kind of hidden (ayy) effects, so calling them basic seems fair enough.

    Forums...are meant for discussion. If people lack knowledge they can ask in particular sub-forums if it helps find the matching audience. I would only expect people keep their questions relevant to the category. For example, don't ask about Raid Bosses in the WvW forums. Why would we disallow basic questions to be asked here? Are we really going down this road? Is the basic knowledge of what forums should be used for lost here?

    Did I say people can't ask a question here? But that's the person that kept vouching for "op stealth deletion from the game" for... a pretty long time now. In those circumstances not knowing basic facts surrounding the gamemode and the very mechanic "you" want removed from the game becomes pretty noteworthy. And as such, if he's actually interested in carrying on with any discussion, he should start reading up on the skills and mechanics instead of just screaming "remove!" when apparently he doesn't understand how they work.
    And yes, forums are meant for discussion, but to have a meaningful discussion it's highly advised (needed?) to actually know the basics of what someone's talking about before going off with some radical opinions. Is this not a reasonable expectation?

    You use Basic Mechanics (as you say) per game mode. Scouts, guild upgrades, siege equipment, etc. is basic to you in this sub-forum.

    I used Basic Mechanics for the whole game. Mechanics shared across game modes is basic to me: downstate, stealth (invisibility), classes

    There really isn't anything more to be said here. Semantics and context. Forums and discussion.

    Cool. I think it was you that "complained" about my choice of words here, not the other way around, but still (non-sarcastically) cool.

  • GDchiaScrub.3241GDchiaScrub.3241 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @GDchiaScrub.3241 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @GDchiaScrub.3241 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @GDchiaScrub.3241 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Svarty.8019 said:

    @GDchiaScrub.3241 said:

    @Virdo.1540 said:
    stealth needs to be unstackable in duration ,like superspeed.

    together with that, reveal should make players immune to becoming invisible, not just undo invis after some seconds. Perma-Reveal,like from new taken keeps) still opens the way to perma-stealth.

    Revealed already does this. I think you are confusing it with Marked.

    D:

    Since some things do both (Sentries) I get confused. Target painter [&trap] just says it marks people - I thought that was supposed to be an anti-stealth device?

    If you don't understand basic game mechanics, go ahead and read the wiki before you try starting a discussion about them :(

    It isn't actually basic game mechanics considering I don't recall half of these things being present in PvE or even Spvp (though I haven't cared for that game mode since like 2018. Stop being so quick to pounce.

    Marked, Detected! and Revealed are three dumb steps to produce one mechanic (Anti-stealth) that simply sees little use outside of WvW.

    It's a weird argument to make that it's not a basic mechanic if it's not in gamemode1, but it is in gamemode2. Seems basic enough to me to call it that.

    But yeah, I think there are better ways to balance stealth "around itself".

    It's not weird. It's just semantics between what each of us considers a "basic mechanic." It'd be more accurate to say universal mechanic I guess, but it only feels like scratching the bottom of the barrel if the mechanic is present in "game mode 1" but not game mode 2 (PvE) and game mode 3 (Spvp). Then of course the sub-systems of other two game modes. Regardless, WvW has the illustrious position of being the minority and not the normal e.g. not "Basic." I mean. I don't think anyone in this forum would want to be called basic! Omg. Absolutely rude.

    We're in the subforum of wvw mode, so expecting basic knowledge about its basic mechanics should be expected. And they're not some kind of hidden (ayy) effects, so calling them basic seems fair enough.

    Forums...are meant for discussion. If people lack knowledge they can ask in particular sub-forums if it helps find the matching audience. I would only expect people keep their questions relevant to the category. For example, don't ask about Raid Bosses in the WvW forums. Why would we disallow basic questions to be asked here? Are we really going down this road? Is the basic knowledge of what forums should be used for lost here?

    Did I say people can't ask a question here? But that's the person that kept vouching for "op stealth deletion from the game" for... a pretty long time now. In those circumstances not knowing basic facts surrounding the gamemode and the very mechanic "you" want removed from the game becomes pretty noteworthy. And as such, if he's actually interested in carrying on with any discussion, he should start reading up on the skills and mechanics instead of just screaming "remove!" when apparently he doesn't understand how they work.
    And yes, forums are meant for discussion, but to have a meaningful discussion it's highly advised (needed?) to actually know the basics of what someone's talking about before going off with some radical opinions. Is this not a reasonable expectation?

    You use Basic Mechanics (as you say) per game mode. Scouts, guild upgrades, siege equipment, etc. is basic to you in this sub-forum.

    I used Basic Mechanics for the whole game. Mechanics shared across game modes is basic to me: downstate, stealth (invisibility), classes

    There really isn't anything more to be said here. Semantics and context. Forums and discussion.

    Cool. But just remember that it was you that complained about my choice of words, not the other way around ;)

    Lol. They're your forum rival? Explains the quips on the first page anyhow. /facepalm

    He had knowledge of stealth, but not ANET's janky Marked implementation from what I understand. Given this string I assume we divide on if "Marked" is basic knowledge. So IMO, he can comment on stealth...even if I disagree with removing stealth/invisibility.

    Just remember I was complaining about the pounce on your rival. The semantic dispute was a side effect.

    D:

    Holy Warriors of [Kazo] following Kazo doctrine guided by, Our Lord and Commander, Zudo in the holy Trinity of Him and his two firm glutes.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 21, 2020

    @GDchiaScrub.3241 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @GDchiaScrub.3241 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @GDchiaScrub.3241 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @GDchiaScrub.3241 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Svarty.8019 said:

    @GDchiaScrub.3241 said:

    @Virdo.1540 said:
    stealth needs to be unstackable in duration ,like superspeed.

    together with that, reveal should make players immune to becoming invisible, not just undo invis after some seconds. Perma-Reveal,like from new taken keeps) still opens the way to perma-stealth.

    Revealed already does this. I think you are confusing it with Marked.

    D:

    Since some things do both (Sentries) I get confused. Target painter [&trap] just says it marks people - I thought that was supposed to be an anti-stealth device?

    If you don't understand basic game mechanics, go ahead and read the wiki before you try starting a discussion about them :(

    It isn't actually basic game mechanics considering I don't recall half of these things being present in PvE or even Spvp (though I haven't cared for that game mode since like 2018. Stop being so quick to pounce.

    Marked, Detected! and Revealed are three dumb steps to produce one mechanic (Anti-stealth) that simply sees little use outside of WvW.

    It's a weird argument to make that it's not a basic mechanic if it's not in gamemode1, but it is in gamemode2. Seems basic enough to me to call it that.

    But yeah, I think there are better ways to balance stealth "around itself".

    It's not weird. It's just semantics between what each of us considers a "basic mechanic." It'd be more accurate to say universal mechanic I guess, but it only feels like scratching the bottom of the barrel if the mechanic is present in "game mode 1" but not game mode 2 (PvE) and game mode 3 (Spvp). Then of course the sub-systems of other two game modes. Regardless, WvW has the illustrious position of being the minority and not the normal e.g. not "Basic." I mean. I don't think anyone in this forum would want to be called basic! Omg. Absolutely rude.

    We're in the subforum of wvw mode, so expecting basic knowledge about its basic mechanics should be expected. And they're not some kind of hidden (ayy) effects, so calling them basic seems fair enough.

    Forums...are meant for discussion. If people lack knowledge they can ask in particular sub-forums if it helps find the matching audience. I would only expect people keep their questions relevant to the category. For example, don't ask about Raid Bosses in the WvW forums. Why would we disallow basic questions to be asked here? Are we really going down this road? Is the basic knowledge of what forums should be used for lost here?

    Did I say people can't ask a question here? But that's the person that kept vouching for "op stealth deletion from the game" for... a pretty long time now. In those circumstances not knowing basic facts surrounding the gamemode and the very mechanic "you" want removed from the game becomes pretty noteworthy. And as such, if he's actually interested in carrying on with any discussion, he should start reading up on the skills and mechanics instead of just screaming "remove!" when apparently he doesn't understand how they work.
    And yes, forums are meant for discussion, but to have a meaningful discussion it's highly advised (needed?) to actually know the basics of what someone's talking about before going off with some radical opinions. Is this not a reasonable expectation?

    You use Basic Mechanics (as you say) per game mode. Scouts, guild upgrades, siege equipment, etc. is basic to you in this sub-forum.

    I used Basic Mechanics for the whole game. Mechanics shared across game modes is basic to me: downstate, stealth (invisibility), classes

    There really isn't anything more to be said here. Semantics and context. Forums and discussion.

    Cool. But just remember that it was you that complained about my choice of words, not the other way around ;)

    Lol. They're your forum rival? Explains the quips on the first page anyhow. /facepalm

    He had knowledge of stealth, but not ANET's janky Marked implementation from what I understand. Given this string I assume we divide on if "Marked" is basic knowledge. So IMO, he can comment on stealth...even if I disagree with removing stealth/invisibility.

    Just remember I was complaining about the pounce on your rival. The semantic dispute was a side effect.

    D:

    "Forum rival"? Just because I saw him spamming the same nonsense he apparently doesn't even understand the basics of? Interesting conclusions.
    I've meant exactly what I wrote. That was not a "pounce" and I've already exaplained my point of view about this above, not sure why you keep trying to spin it into your unrelated theories.

    But hey, you've remembered one of my posts (which I don't tbh), so -following your logic- I guess I'm your forum rival, which is also why you've so eagerly pounced at my choice of words. :(

  • GDchiaScrub.3241GDchiaScrub.3241 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @GDchiaScrub.3241 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @GDchiaScrub.3241 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @GDchiaScrub.3241 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @GDchiaScrub.3241 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Svarty.8019 said:

    @GDchiaScrub.3241 said:

    @Virdo.1540 said:
    stealth needs to be unstackable in duration ,like superspeed.

    together with that, reveal should make players immune to becoming invisible, not just undo invis after some seconds. Perma-Reveal,like from new taken keeps) still opens the way to perma-stealth.

    Revealed already does this. I think you are confusing it with Marked.

    D:

    Since some things do both (Sentries) I get confused. Target painter [&trap] just says it marks people - I thought that was supposed to be an anti-stealth device?

    If you don't understand basic game mechanics, go ahead and read the wiki before you try starting a discussion about them :(

    It isn't actually basic game mechanics considering I don't recall half of these things being present in PvE or even Spvp (though I haven't cared for that game mode since like 2018. Stop being so quick to pounce.

    Marked, Detected! and Revealed are three dumb steps to produce one mechanic (Anti-stealth) that simply sees little use outside of WvW.

    It's a weird argument to make that it's not a basic mechanic if it's not in gamemode1, but it is in gamemode2. Seems basic enough to me to call it that.

    But yeah, I think there are better ways to balance stealth "around itself".

    It's not weird. It's just semantics between what each of us considers a "basic mechanic." It'd be more accurate to say universal mechanic I guess, but it only feels like scratching the bottom of the barrel if the mechanic is present in "game mode 1" but not game mode 2 (PvE) and game mode 3 (Spvp). Then of course the sub-systems of other two game modes. Regardless, WvW has the illustrious position of being the minority and not the normal e.g. not "Basic." I mean. I don't think anyone in this forum would want to be called basic! Omg. Absolutely rude.

    We're in the subforum of wvw mode, so expecting basic knowledge about its basic mechanics should be expected. And they're not some kind of hidden (ayy) effects, so calling them basic seems fair enough.

    Forums...are meant for discussion. If people lack knowledge they can ask in particular sub-forums if it helps find the matching audience. I would only expect people keep their questions relevant to the category. For example, don't ask about Raid Bosses in the WvW forums. Why would we disallow basic questions to be asked here? Are we really going down this road? Is the basic knowledge of what forums should be used for lost here?

    Did I say people can't ask a question here? But that's the person that kept vouching for "op stealth deletion from the game" for... a pretty long time now. In those circumstances not knowing basic facts surrounding the gamemode and the very mechanic "you" want removed from the game becomes pretty noteworthy. And as such, if he's actually interested in carrying on with any discussion, he should start reading up on the skills and mechanics instead of just screaming "remove!" when apparently he doesn't understand how they work.
    And yes, forums are meant for discussion, but to have a meaningful discussion it's highly advised (needed?) to actually know the basics of what someone's talking about before going off with some radical opinions. Is this not a reasonable expectation?

    You use Basic Mechanics (as you say) per game mode. Scouts, guild upgrades, siege equipment, etc. is basic to you in this sub-forum.

    I used Basic Mechanics for the whole game. Mechanics shared across game modes is basic to me: downstate, stealth (invisibility), classes

    There really isn't anything more to be said here. Semantics and context. Forums and discussion.

    Cool. But just remember that it was you that complained about my choice of words, not the other way around ;)

    Lol. They're your forum rival? Explains the quips on the first page anyhow. /facepalm

    He had knowledge of stealth, but not ANET's janky Marked implementation from what I understand. Given this string I assume we divide on if "Marked" is basic knowledge. So IMO, he can comment on stealth...even if I disagree with removing stealth/invisibility.

    Just remember I was complaining about the pounce on your rival. The semantic dispute was a side effect.

    D:

    "Forum rival"? Just because I saw him spamming the same nonsense he apparently doesn't even understand the basics of? Interesting conclusions.
    I've meant exactly what I wrote. That was not a "pounce" and I've already exaplained my point of view about this above, not sure why you keep trying to spin it into your unrelated theories.

    But hey, you've remembered one of my posts (which I don't tbh), so -following your logic- I guess I'm your forum rival, which is also why you've so eagerly pounced at my choice of words. :(

    Oh. You took the forum rival thing seriously? I do forget plain text can be hard on humor sometimes if I don't provide enough hints. /facepalm I was going to make a joke about Ash and Gary next, but we won't be able to get anywhere. We can add that to my "theories" and "conclusions" as such things make me feel like a scientist (Forumtology?). What are my theories or whatever called? I'll let you do the honors of naming them.

    So maybe I have a lower bar for people to discuss stealth than you? That's where we are at for the TLDR. He can spam(err comment on) such threads with whatever bad ideas as he sees fit. Better to know the bad ideas than hide them. You may even be able to help by providing more information! Or links to wiki articles he should read? Something something something, sunlight and disinfectant quote here. That way the bad ideas will be less bad with guidance (probably unlikely given forum egos are on average 50% higher than the normal human).

    And yeah. We both read and post on different threads too. Not really sure this is shocking, but we can be rivals if you wanted. It's not like there are many faces on the forums anyway. If we went back to downstate/stealth threads a year ago you might even see 90% of the same people. Maybe they can join us in forum rivalry?

    TLDR: I have a low bar for people discussing stealth. I doubt it'll be removed even with intimate (non-sensual) knowledge.

    D:

    Holy Warriors of [Kazo] following Kazo doctrine guided by, Our Lord and Commander, Zudo in the holy Trinity of Him and his two firm glutes.