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  • Fat Disgrace.4275Fat Disgrace.4275 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 9, 2020

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Jeydra.4386 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Jeydra.4386 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Shiyo.3578 said:

    @Jeydra.4386 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    And as usual, people complain about the wrong element of stealth and present the worst possible solutions. Yes, out of combat stealth, where you get hit by a burst from a player you didnt even know was there is an issue. Thats solved easily just by having a max duration of stealth that cant be exceeded. But in-combat stealth, aka stealthing in the middle of a fight, is already weak. And yet inexplicably the mechanic so underpowered good thieves dont use it is the one people want nerfed to ludicrous degrees.

    What? I just got trolled by a Daredevil who spent roughly 50% of the time stealthed. He could aggro into me in the middle of NPCs in a camp and escape with no consequences, because during the time when he wasn't stealthed he always has dodges and ports. Meanwhile I can't leave the camp because he will flip it (+ it was a long way to run to the next objective during which he will probably kill me), and I can't even map out because I'm in combat.

    And I haven't even mentioned the ability to grief 8+ players hunting you in a Keep, on a class that has ports for teammates (i.e. cannot be left alone if you want to hold the objective).

    Stealth is just so stupidly broken it needs to be nerfed into oblivion. "Overpowered" is the wrong word to describe it. It's the ability to grief other players that is the problem.

    The biggest issue with stealth is in this post.
    What the poster I am quotting is saying is he can't even interact with the thief due to stealth and dodges. So he playing a video game against a class he essentially cannot interact with. That is boring and bad, and why stealth is so obscenely broken.

    Yeah except that says more about him than it says about thief. Because he very much so can interact with the thief. Easily even. Stealth in-combat is trivially easy to punish after all. If he failed to do so, he just misplayed. As for "dodges", D/P thief does not have an above average amount of dodges, and when you consider the lack of invuln or block, theyre even below average. Stealth is not "obscenely broken", in the situations people complain about its horribly underpowered. It is stupid for out of combat scenarios, but people rarely talk about those.

    Fighting against classes you can't even interact with is horrible game design and has been an issue plaguing this game for years, especially in WvW.

    No such class ever existed. The closest were probably release Mirage and some version of sword weaver. And even with those you could interact with them.

    Take care of your game, look at abusive combinations people are using to make their characters instantly kill someone, or be non-interactable by other players, and actually FIX THEM.

    Thats ... what theyve been doing? I cant think of any class that can even oneshot anymore out of stealth (other than blasting module engineer, but that one is a complete meme), and no class is "non-interactable". And never has been. They even nerfed Mirage and Sword Weaver since.

    I wonder why you're claiming I "misplayed" when 1) he didn't kill me, and 2) you agreed that I cannot possibly kill the thief if he doesn't want to be killed.

    The thing is, if the thief is stupid enough to use in-combat stealth, thats one of the few ways that you can kill a thief. He is pretty shields down if he does that.

    That doesn't answer any of the points that were raised, unless you are arguing that Thief is broken but stealth isn't.

    To answer your points, you misplayed because you failed to kill him when he gave you the perfect opportunity to kill him with stealth. And nah, neither stealth nor thief are broken. Not being able to be killed isnt worth much if youre also not able to kill. Thief can only draw.

    Ang on a second here. Dont pretend thief is all that squishy anymore since dmg got 33% nerfed. Also most are using -10% food, along with other dmg reduction traits from daredevil and shadow arts. They are far from 2/3 hits any more.

    Secondly, as I said before. Most thievs are using shadow arts so they cant really help but go in stealth while in combat from heal trait and deception reduce trait (steal) 90% of thieves in wvw will and do camp stealth before and mid combat. And thanks to dash they can easily kite away and open the gap so most melee cc classes cant stop bp/hs combo

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jeydra.4386 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Jeydra.4386 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Jeydra.4386 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Shiyo.3578 said:

    @Jeydra.4386 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    And as usual, people complain about the wrong element of stealth and present the worst possible solutions. Yes, out of combat stealth, where you get hit by a burst from a player you didnt even know was there is an issue. Thats solved easily just by having a max duration of stealth that cant be exceeded. But in-combat stealth, aka stealthing in the middle of a fight, is already weak. And yet inexplicably the mechanic so underpowered good thieves dont use it is the one people want nerfed to ludicrous degrees.

    What? I just got trolled by a Daredevil who spent roughly 50% of the time stealthed. He could aggro into me in the middle of NPCs in a camp and escape with no consequences, because during the time when he wasn't stealthed he always has dodges and ports. Meanwhile I can't leave the camp because he will flip it (+ it was a long way to run to the next objective during which he will probably kill me), and I can't even map out because I'm in combat.

    And I haven't even mentioned the ability to grief 8+ players hunting you in a Keep, on a class that has ports for teammates (i.e. cannot be left alone if you want to hold the objective).

    Stealth is just so stupidly broken it needs to be nerfed into oblivion. "Overpowered" is the wrong word to describe it. It's the ability to grief other players that is the problem.

    The biggest issue with stealth is in this post.
    What the poster I am quotting is saying is he can't even interact with the thief due to stealth and dodges. So he playing a video game against a class he essentially cannot interact with. That is boring and bad, and why stealth is so obscenely broken.

    Yeah except that says more about him than it says about thief. Because he very much so can interact with the thief. Easily even. Stealth in-combat is trivially easy to punish after all. If he failed to do so, he just misplayed. As for "dodges", D/P thief does not have an above average amount of dodges, and when you consider the lack of invuln or block, theyre even below average. Stealth is not "obscenely broken", in the situations people complain about its horribly underpowered. It is stupid for out of combat scenarios, but people rarely talk about those.

    Fighting against classes you can't even interact with is horrible game design and has been an issue plaguing this game for years, especially in WvW.

    No such class ever existed. The closest were probably release Mirage and some version of sword weaver. And even with those you could interact with them.

    Take care of your game, look at abusive combinations people are using to make their characters instantly kill someone, or be non-interactable by other players, and actually FIX THEM.

    Thats ... what theyve been doing? I cant think of any class that can even oneshot anymore out of stealth (other than blasting module engineer, but that one is a complete meme), and no class is "non-interactable". And never has been. They even nerfed Mirage and Sword Weaver since.

    I wonder why you're claiming I "misplayed" when 1) he didn't kill me, and 2) you agreed that I cannot possibly kill the thief if he doesn't want to be killed.

    The thing is, if the thief is stupid enough to use in-combat stealth, thats one of the few ways that you can kill a thief. He is pretty shields down if he does that.

    That doesn't answer any of the points that were raised, unless you are arguing that Thief is broken but stealth isn't.

    To answer your points, you misplayed because you failed to kill him when he gave you the perfect opportunity to kill him with stealth. And nah, neither stealth nor thief are broken. Not being able to be killed isnt worth much if youre also not able to kill. Thief can only draw.

    Why don't you say he misplayed by giving me the opportunity to kill him then. You're really grasping at straws now, because the moment you acknowledge that Thieves cannot be killed unless they allow themselves to be killed, you back up my argument. Not going to respond anymore, because you are patently not getting it (e.g. by saying that you cannot interact with Weavers and Mirages, which indicates you don't understand and/or don't want to understand what "interact" means.)

    Thief is stupidly broken and needs to be nerfed into oblivion.

    Man these threads these days. Dude u really need to l2p, u sound like a noob who's butt hurt cuz thieves farm u, especially on ur last statement of which ur making towards a class that got the job tittle decap bot and +1 for a reason. This whole BS gbage players post about a thief no being able to be killed unless it wants to is utter nonsense spoken by players who want easy kills instead of learning how to fight the class, god forbid other classes had to learn ALL the other classes and their common rotations to be effective, u guys cant learn one, seriously. Sure thief can use it's high mobility and access to stealth to avoid all engagements or leave a fight as soon as things get slightly dangerous but guess what? That thief will contribute very little to its team and the match. If a thief is +1ing and getting a lot of kills on u than u need to learn map awareness and not just spam ur cc. Aoe condies properly placed in the right spots are disastrous for a thief, hell I drop em and or cleave in their fields knowing their there to stacking stealth, works so often. Cc is so high in this game smart use of them combined with teefs squishyness makes quick burst kills on em easy. Most thieves are pretty predictable and stealth actually gives little defensive protection unless used from out of sight range because most leave tells on the ground and a thief can take all forms of damage while stealth'd, just cant be targeted except by channels. All classes have great defensive skills to basically nullify BS if used properly. Anyway this thread is a waste of time as the rework ur all wanting to stealth will never come, 1 cuz it's too late into the games life and 2 cuz most of u posters are clear in ur bias against the class and make suggestions that are unrealistic and would only serve to kill the class and cause a large number of players to quit the game which is already suffering a very low population. No ones left due to thief and if they had they would found something else to cry about and leave regardless.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 9, 2020

    U put all the better players in this game in multiple 1v1 competitions and guarantee thief will be near bottom and that's ok cuz that's not its strengths..... but it does get to have strengths right? And no just moving fast but being ineffective in all and any combat scenarios is not enough as that would be such a gbage design that zero players would invest in, so next best thing is having good quick burst to utilize the mobility in +1 scenarios as thief does, but players get salty when their fighting a 1v1 in a team pvp mode but get jumped into a 2v1, too bad. A bad thief is useless and a 2 is always useless. A good thief will slow down the other teams points by decapping IF thier teams doin their jobs and yes can kill if the thief knows who to plus, thatis not OP. last night had a warrior call smokescreen OP with no counter play among other salt when he was just bad,maybe new or somthing. I popped smokescreen and sat in it autoing him while he used all his hard cc's like bulls on me and when smokescreen was done he had zero cc's left and most skills on CD so I blinded and downed him, u think he'll learn to save his cc's till after smokescreen clears or any of the other smart counter plays he could have done? Nope he wont learn but just call it OP. U guys say thief cant be killed unless it wants to? Many times I've used my shadowstep(my one stunbreak on dp) and a warrior BC me, does half 100 blades and f1 with frenzy popped and 100-0 me, or a mirage which I counter catches me off guard and does its burst on me and 15k gone, are these classes op, no their 2 of the weakest classes in the game right now. Before someone says well u miss played in those scanarios well what if using me shadoestep was a great play at the time but soon after the warrior or any of the other hard cc monster classes catch me in their cc or I get pulled into the highly damaging dh traps with burning and the ward keeping u in the aoe? Thief can be killed and is killed many times every day in gw2 and no it surely didnt want to be.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I would gladly swap invisibility and damage ratios with sin rogue in wow. Permanent invisibility when outa combat for traversing and getting into position without using all my global skill resources and utilities, great for setting up opening bursts. Then add 2 in combat stealth, one standard and the other when not moving in combination with a shroud that nullifys spells yum yum. Cherry on top would be the sweet sweet bursts rogues do that allow it to have a chance at severely chunking even the tankier of hp bars, and in wow their tanks dwarf gw2 tanks in comparison. U guys have it lucky with thief's design and damage in this game, then again gw2 draws a certain crowd which spills over to pvp.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 9, 2020

    6 sec non stack able stealth but replenisheable would be reasonable since the thief can re apply but not stack. Be a nerf but still serviceable by the thieves. That said any major changes to stealth this many yrs into the game are very unlikely

  • ASP.8093ASP.8093 Member ✭✭✭

    @kai.5149 said:
    I just wish valve brings some balance to the wvw table if they have the opportunity.

    You do understand that Valve doesn't actually produce the games that are sold on Steam, right?

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ASP.8093 said:

    @kai.5149 said:
    I just wish valve brings some balance to the wvw table if they have the opportunity.

    You do understand that Valve doesn't actually produce the games that are sold on Steam, right?

    They better be to busy working on HL3 to be doing anything else lol.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Jeydra.4386 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Jeydra.4386 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Shiyo.3578 said:

    @Jeydra.4386 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    And as usual, people complain about the wrong element of stealth and present the worst possible solutions. Yes, out of combat stealth, where you get hit by a burst from a player you didnt even know was there is an issue. Thats solved easily just by having a max duration of stealth that cant be exceeded. But in-combat stealth, aka stealthing in the middle of a fight, is already weak. And yet inexplicably the mechanic so underpowered good thieves dont use it is the one people want nerfed to ludicrous degrees.

    What? I just got trolled by a Daredevil who spent roughly 50% of the time stealthed. He could aggro into me in the middle of NPCs in a camp and escape with no consequences, because during the time when he wasn't stealthed he always has dodges and ports. Meanwhile I can't leave the camp because he will flip it (+ it was a long way to run to the next objective during which he will probably kill me), and I can't even map out because I'm in combat.

    And I haven't even mentioned the ability to grief 8+ players hunting you in a Keep, on a class that has ports for teammates (i.e. cannot be left alone if you want to hold the objective).

    Stealth is just so stupidly broken it needs to be nerfed into oblivion. "Overpowered" is the wrong word to describe it. It's the ability to grief other players that is the problem.

    The biggest issue with stealth is in this post.
    What the poster I am quotting is saying is he can't even interact with the thief due to stealth and dodges. So he playing a video game against a class he essentially cannot interact with. That is boring and bad, and why stealth is so obscenely broken.

    Yeah except that says more about him than it says about thief. Because he very much so can interact with the thief. Easily even. Stealth in-combat is trivially easy to punish after all. If he failed to do so, he just misplayed. As for "dodges", D/P thief does not have an above average amount of dodges, and when you consider the lack of invuln or block, theyre even below average. Stealth is not "obscenely broken", in the situations people complain about its horribly underpowered. It is stupid for out of combat scenarios, but people rarely talk about those.

    Fighting against classes you can't even interact with is horrible game design and has been an issue plaguing this game for years, especially in WvW.

    No such class ever existed. The closest were probably release Mirage and some version of sword weaver. And even with those you could interact with them.

    Take care of your game, look at abusive combinations people are using to make their characters instantly kill someone, or be non-interactable by other players, and actually FIX THEM.

    Thats ... what theyve been doing? I cant think of any class that can even oneshot anymore out of stealth (other than blasting module engineer, but that one is a complete meme), and no class is "non-interactable". And never has been. They even nerfed Mirage and Sword Weaver since.

    I wonder why you're claiming I "misplayed" when 1) he didn't kill me, and 2) you agreed that I cannot possibly kill the thief if he doesn't want to be killed.

    The thing is, if the thief is stupid enough to use in-combat stealth, thats one of the few ways that you can kill a thief. He is pretty shields down if he does that.

    That doesn't answer any of the points that were raised, unless you are arguing that Thief is broken but stealth isn't.

    To answer your points, you misplayed because you failed to kill him when he gave you the perfect opportunity to kill him with stealth. And nah, neither stealth nor thief are broken. Not being able to be killed isnt worth much if youre also not able to kill. Thief can only draw.

    Ang on a second here. Dont pretend thief is all that squishy anymore since dmg got 33% nerfed. Also most are using -10% food, along with other dmg reduction traits from daredevil and shadow arts. They are far from 2/3 hits any more.

    Thief is still plenty squishy. They were hilariously overkilled before, but you can still drop a thief in a couple hits.

    Secondly, as I said before. Most thievs are using shadow arts so they cant really help but go in stealth while in combat from heal trait and deception reduce trait (steal) 90% of thieves in wvw will and do camp stealth before and mid combat. And thanks to dash they can easily kite away and open the gap so most melee cc classes cant stop bp/hs combo

    You dont go into stealth while in combat, because if you try, the enemy CCs you and kills you, or just directly bursts you and kills you. And dash isnt nearly enough to get away. Try doing that into the combo against Warrior, and he bullrushes you and kills you.

  • DemonSeed.3528DemonSeed.3528 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @declan.7529 said:
    Perma stealth should not be a thing, make it like super speed and not stack

    I would also like to see this in general for all boons, and that they overwrite durations. Might need to do it a little differently for conditions though.

  • Jeydra.4386Jeydra.4386 Member ✭✭
    edited September 10, 2020

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Jeydra.4386 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Jeydra.4386 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Jeydra.4386 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Shiyo.3578 said:

    @Jeydra.4386 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    And as usual, people complain about the wrong element of stealth and present the worst possible solutions. Yes, out of combat stealth, where you get hit by a burst from a player you didnt even know was there is an issue. Thats solved easily just by having a max duration of stealth that cant be exceeded. But in-combat stealth, aka stealthing in the middle of a fight, is already weak. And yet inexplicably the mechanic so underpowered good thieves dont use it is the one people want nerfed to ludicrous degrees.

    What? I just got trolled by a Daredevil who spent roughly 50% of the time stealthed. He could aggro into me in the middle of NPCs in a camp and escape with no consequences, because during the time when he wasn't stealthed he always has dodges and ports. Meanwhile I can't leave the camp because he will flip it (+ it was a long way to run to the next objective during which he will probably kill me), and I can't even map out because I'm in combat.

    And I haven't even mentioned the ability to grief 8+ players hunting you in a Keep, on a class that has ports for teammates (i.e. cannot be left alone if you want to hold the objective).

    Stealth is just so stupidly broken it needs to be nerfed into oblivion. "Overpowered" is the wrong word to describe it. It's the ability to grief other players that is the problem.

    The biggest issue with stealth is in this post.
    What the poster I am quotting is saying is he can't even interact with the thief due to stealth and dodges. So he playing a video game against a class he essentially cannot interact with. That is boring and bad, and why stealth is so obscenely broken.

    Yeah except that says more about him than it says about thief. Because he very much so can interact with the thief. Easily even. Stealth in-combat is trivially easy to punish after all. If he failed to do so, he just misplayed. As for "dodges", D/P thief does not have an above average amount of dodges, and when you consider the lack of invuln or block, theyre even below average. Stealth is not "obscenely broken", in the situations people complain about its horribly underpowered. It is stupid for out of combat scenarios, but people rarely talk about those.

    Fighting against classes you can't even interact with is horrible game design and has been an issue plaguing this game for years, especially in WvW.

    No such class ever existed. The closest were probably release Mirage and some version of sword weaver. And even with those you could interact with them.

    Take care of your game, look at abusive combinations people are using to make their characters instantly kill someone, or be non-interactable by other players, and actually FIX THEM.

    Thats ... what theyve been doing? I cant think of any class that can even oneshot anymore out of stealth (other than blasting module engineer, but that one is a complete meme), and no class is "non-interactable". And never has been. They even nerfed Mirage and Sword Weaver since.

    I wonder why you're claiming I "misplayed" when 1) he didn't kill me, and 2) you agreed that I cannot possibly kill the thief if he doesn't want to be killed.

    The thing is, if the thief is stupid enough to use in-combat stealth, thats one of the few ways that you can kill a thief. He is pretty shields down if he does that.

    That doesn't answer any of the points that were raised, unless you are arguing that Thief is broken but stealth isn't.

    To answer your points, you misplayed because you failed to kill him when he gave you the perfect opportunity to kill him with stealth. And nah, neither stealth nor thief are broken. Not being able to be killed isnt worth much if youre also not able to kill. Thief can only draw.

    Why don't you say he misplayed by giving me the opportunity to kill him then. You're really grasping at straws now, because the moment you acknowledge that Thieves cannot be killed unless they allow themselves to be killed, you back up my argument. Not going to respond anymore, because you are patently not getting it (e.g. by saying that you cannot interact with Weavers and Mirages, which indicates you don't understand and/or don't want to understand what "interact" means.)

    Thief is stupidly broken and needs to be nerfed into oblivion.

    Man these threads these days. Dude u really need to l2p, u sound like a noob who's butt hurt cuz thieves farm u, especially on ur last statement of which ur making towards a class that got the job tittle decap bot and +1 for a reason. This whole BS gbage players post about a thief no being able to be killed unless it wants to is utter nonsense spoken by players who want easy kills instead of learning how to fight the class, god forbid other classes had to learn ALL the other classes and their common rotations to be effective, u guys cant learn one, seriously. Sure thief can use it's high mobility and access to stealth to avoid all engagements or leave a fight as soon as things get slightly dangerous but guess what? That thief will contribute very little to its team and the match. If a thief is +1ing and getting a lot of kills on u than u need to learn map awareness and not just spam ur cc. Aoe condies properly placed in the right spots are disastrous for a thief, hell I drop em and or cleave in their fields knowing their there to stacking stealth, works so often. Cc is so high in this game smart use of them combined with teefs squishyness makes quick burst kills on em easy. Most thieves are pretty predictable and stealth actually gives little defensive protection unless used from out of sight range because most leave tells on the ground and a thief can take all forms of damage while stealth'd, just cant be targeted except by channels. All classes have great defensive skills to basically nullify BS if used properly. Anyway this thread is a waste of time as the rework ur all wanting to stealth will never come, 1 cuz it's too late into the games life and 2 cuz most of u posters are clear in ur bias against the class and make suggestions that are unrealistic and would only serve to kill the class and cause a large number of players to quit the game which is already suffering a very low population. No ones left due to thief and if they had they would found something else to cry about and leave regardless.

    Lol? You realize this is the WvW forum right?

    For the record, I do not think Thieves are broken in sPvP.

  • Shiyo.3578Shiyo.3578 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 10, 2020

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    You dont go into stealth while in combat

    ...What? That's literally how you disengage and burst.

  • Fat Disgrace.4275Fat Disgrace.4275 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 10, 2020

    @Shiyo.3578 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    You dont go into stealth while in combat

    ...What? That's literally how you disengage and burst.

    Tbh, shadow shot is far better now since dmg got nerfed, they both hit the same lol.

    If you watch them try hards from SA guild and all of their ganking friends, THEY all are stealth 90% of the time and they do it way out of range. Double dash is 900 range so even if you do have bulls up, you are too far away to position out of the blind field, you may get the cc but blinded after that and a lot of thives taking blinding powder so they stealth, blast the smoke field and break out of cc lol. Yes on the rare occasion you will kill at thief by cc the combo, especially as a warrior (as you bring that class) but the best way to down a thief has always been ranged dps. I am way more afraid of a fresh air ele or ranger on my theif than I am vs rev or warrior

    Dash and shadow arts does need a a good nerf bat but wvw isn't balanced at all and spvp thief is kept in check by no capture node in stealth.

  • Strider.7849Strider.7849 Member ✭✭✭

    @Hot Boy.7138 said:
    I think thieves should always have stealth and high access to it. Mesmers imo shouldn't have stealth because we have clones. Having clones AND stealth is too strong. It should really just be one or the other. Engineers blasting fields for stealth been a thing since the game launched. It's annoying to fight against but I think it has a cool factor since engineers should be able to do a little of everything. Keyword: A little. Rangers blasting/leaping is a bit much for me. Trap runes that give you stealth when you put down a trap is just stupid and needs to go.

    Problem with that is clones are only confusing to new players and those with low PvP experience. The stealth allows a Mesmer to reposition, disengage and be able to utilize their clones briefly against the average to above average player, that second of distraction is huge. The problem is in giving it long duration stealth, which isn't as bad now between the nerfs to mirage, instant power burst, and lowering of their mobility.

    Rangers use stealth to reposition and there's only a few they have access to: longbow #3 (it's a reposition skill not long duration reset), smoke scale field just 1 field (requires a leap/blast and again only grants stealth long enough to reposition), and druids aoe stealth upon exiting celestial avatar. I don't see the limited uses of stealth it has as a problem. Engineers stealth is primarily used defensively (to cast heals, stomp, disengage) or for heavy hitting animations with big tells. With toss elixir S the duration is long enough to warrant being a problem at 6s but the amount of application they have for real combat isn't that big of a deal.

    The big problem is thief's application of it not only because they can constantly enter stealth at will, they can do so for long periods of time AND have the mobility/evades needed to keep resetting fights over and over. A properly played thief controls the fight and only a few classes have the tools to be able to kill it; all of which are countered by the thief they are attempting to kill.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shiyo.3578 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    You dont go into stealth while in combat

    ...What? That's literally how you disengage and burst.

    If you try to stealth to disengage, Im quite happy as an Engineer. That just means you get Grenade Barraged into downstate. No you disengage by using shortbow 5. And you burst at the start, then you go for shadowshot and heartseeker. Maybe an instant burst if you use hidden thief. But you rarely get the backstab on the back, so its usually not worth it.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

    @Shiyo.3578 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    You dont go into stealth while in combat

    ...What? That's literally how you disengage and burst.

    Tbh, shadow shot is far better now since dmg got nerfed, they both hit the same lol.

    If you watch them try hards from SA guild and all of their ganking friends, THEY all are stealth 90% of the time and they do it way out of range. Double dash is 900 range so even if you do have bulls up, you are too far away to position out of the blind field, you may get the cc but blinded after that and a lot of thives taking blinding powder so they stealth, blast the smoke field and break out of cc lol. Yes on the rare occasion you will kill at thief by cc the combo, especially as a warrior (as you bring that class) but the best way to down a thief has always been ranged dps. I am way more afraid of a fresh air ele or ranger on my theif than I am vs rev or warrior

    900 units over 1.5 seconds. In those same 1.5 seconds at the bare minimum you travel 315 units, so theyre >600 units away at most. Less if you have swiftness. Bull's charge is 900 range. You will hit Bull's charge. And as for the blind, it pulses once every 2 seconds. Just use hundred blades. Itll remove one tick, and the rest still kills thief. As for Black Powder, congratulations. You forced him to use a very important cooldown. If he doesnt run away, youll be able to kill him soon enough. And melees generally have an easier time punishing stealth than ranged classes.

    Dash and shadow arts does need a a good nerf bat but wvw isn't balanced at all and spvp thief is kept in check by no capture node in stealth.

    They dont. And sPvP isnt kept in check by that at all. If you could hold nodes in stealth, it wouldnt really help thief. Theif either stands on empty points, or +1s someone else who contests a point.

  • Please give necro stealth. Thank you.

    Adversity is the medium thru which strength and greatness are forged.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 10, 2020

    @DaVid Darksoul.4985 said:
    Please give necro stealth. Thank you.

    Please give every class everything, because I guess absolutely no differences between them is the whole reason classes even exist! Thank you.

    Want stealth? Pick a class with stealth. Easy.

  • Shiyo.3578Shiyo.3578 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @DaVid Darksoul.4985 said:
    Please give necro stealth. Thank you.

    Norn elite

  • @DaVid Darksoul.4985 said:
    Please give necro stealth. Thank you.

    Yes let's ask to get the thing that everyone is always complaining about so we can get nerfed along with it.

    My Youtube: Coconut Racecar
    Necromancer | Maguuma | Diamond Legend
    [YWY] Weeping Valley | [tBag] Making Friends Everywhere I Go | [chi] Uhehehe

  • Permastealth is still a thing, unfortunately, some players have worked around Anet's nerfs in the last 2 months. A deadeye can stay hidden within a location indefinitely, and if they stay in one location where nobody looks anymore after a capture or breakin.....you will never ever know they were ever there. Several locations such as Northeast outer bay, after capture, a mesmer or deadeye can remain stealthed and wont' show up as a dot on the map. Same thing with Air keep on the red borderland at the vista point at the most southern portion of the lip, won't appear as a dot and a permastealth can just stand in that spot, without anyone the wiser. I found a lot of challenege with stealthed, or invisible opponants. However that means i'm happy with an opponant that can continuously remain stealthed forever. It's bull. And it's stupid that Stealth Traps are completely worthless against Deadeyes. That's bull too. "oh but they appear for a second...." A second....and then you have to lay down more stealth traps....but you can't lay them down without him noticing because he sees you 10 feet away, kneeling...knowing full well WHERE the stealth trap is being placed. SERIOUSLY...anet....Permastealth AGAIN!?

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭

    So you know where they are. Sniff to confirm they are there. Then toss a target painter and camp the spot to force them off and into the Marked section of the keep.

    Also, Marked is a significant debuff because it forces the thief to burn cooldowns. If anyone is chasing a thief around it also reduces the initiative the thief has to gain stealth.

    But none of this matters because spending 20 minutes hiding in a keep is usually a waste of time. If a Zerg can avoid being scouted to show up at a keep and then get ported inside that is a massive failure on the part of the defending team. Meanwhile that thief has to actively work to maintain stealth for an extended period on the off chance that the aforesaid Zerg will manage that, or even care enough to try. Most of the time that Zerg sneaking to the keep will be able to put down three or four catas and open it up pretty fast. That’s usually how keeps get flipped unless you are talking about a havoc group of five players stealth capping, which is entirely easy to defend against (and delay long enough for more defenders to show up).

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • Klypto.1703Klypto.1703 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 22, 2020

    @Azreell.1568 said:
    Is there absolutely anything this player base will not complain about???

    Stealth is easily countered in group play especially with hammer revs in the current meta on pushes so it's not like everyone doesn't have access to reveals.

    Also other classes have access to reveals as well - add into that the Marked debuff.

    I mean stealth is very balanced as it stands in group play.

    Now, for roaming - which this game mode should never be balanced from sure stealth is an advantage but not overpowered. Some classes are designed with having stealth in mind.

    But, lets be frank - dead eye riffle spec would be a free kill without it and is only viable in roaming - so that's it's thing. Its useless pretty much in all other game modes.

    Here's what I got out of this post , "Stealth is OP and it makes me tink man. I know itz got dem counters but I have to use my brain. IT SHOULD BE NERFED. LONG LIVE THE OLD SCHOOL HAMMER TRAIN BOYZ".......

    No thanx.............

    Pretty much most people have quit playing especially over the last few balance patches that they are going to have to rename their new expansion...

    End of Development

  • @saerni.2584 said:
    So you know where they are. Sniff to confirm they are there. Then toss a target painter and camp the spot to force them off and into the Marked section of the keep.

    Also, Marked is a significant debuff because it forces the thief to burn cooldowns. If anyone is chasing a thief around it also reduces the initiative the thief has to gain stealth.

    But none of this matters because spending 20 minutes hiding in a keep is usually a waste of time. If a Zerg can avoid being scouted to show up at a keep and then get ported inside that is a massive failure on the part of the defending team. Meanwhile that thief has to actively work to maintain stealth for an extended period on the off chance that the aforesaid Zerg will manage that, or even care enough to try. Most of the time that Zerg sneaking to the keep will be able to put down three or four catas and open it up pretty fast. That’s usually how keeps get flipped unless you are talking about a havoc group of five players stealth capping, which is entirely easy to defend against (and delay long enough for more defenders to show up).

    Sniff against a STEALTHED opponant. mmmhmmm... As for the teams doing a "mesmer/thief sweep"....according to the commanders, "who cares". When your team no longer cares, that's left up to the solo artists, and they get frustrated to all hell trying to run down an individual without teammate support. I will agree, any time that gets the "I don't care" attitude of sweeps should lose that location. Even if it's my own team, I tell my fellow mates, "you didn't care enough to sweep, this is the consequance."

  • Stealth it's not a problem, yes it's annoying but there's a lot of ways that you can deal with it, including running away (imagine that). Spaming stealth it's a whole different problem with thieves beign the mayor ofender in this topic, that beign said, the solution it's quite simple imo. Put freaking CD on thieves weapons skills, there, problem solve, now thieves can have buffs and be relevant in all the other types of gamemodes.

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @KeyOrion.9506 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:
    So you know where they are. Sniff to confirm they are there. Then toss a target painter and camp the spot to force them off and into the Marked section of the keep.

    Also, Marked is a significant debuff because it forces the thief to burn cooldowns. If anyone is chasing a thief around it also reduces the initiative the thief has to gain stealth.

    But none of this matters because spending 20 minutes hiding in a keep is usually a waste of time. If a Zerg can avoid being scouted to show up at a keep and then get ported inside that is a massive failure on the part of the defending team. Meanwhile that thief has to actively work to maintain stealth for an extended period on the off chance that the aforesaid Zerg will manage that, or even care enough to try. Most of the time that Zerg sneaking to the keep will be able to put down three or four catas and open it up pretty fast. That’s usually how keeps get flipped unless you are talking about a havoc group of five players stealth capping, which is entirely easy to defend against (and delay long enough for more defenders to show up).

    Sniff against a STEALTHED opponant. mmmhmmm... As for the teams doing a "mesmer/thief sweep"....according to the commanders, "who cares". When your team no longer cares, that's left up to the solo artists, and they get frustrated to all hell trying to run down an individual without teammate support. I will agree, any time that gets the "I don't care" attitude of sweeps should lose that location. Even if it's my own team, I tell my fellow mates, "you didn't care enough to sweep, this is the consequance."

    It still dings even when the enemy is stealthed FYI.

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • ASP.8093ASP.8093 Member ✭✭✭

    They call them "thieves," but when they actually steal something (an objective), everyone gets real mad.

  • KeyOrion.9506KeyOrion.9506 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 23, 2020

    No it doesn't. And before you go of on a tangent saying yes it does....i've already had it tested by other players from guildmates, friends, and a few strangers. It does not. So stop argueing it does. Whether that is a BUG or a GLITCH, i don't care, or a nerf/change, i just DO not care to argue that you THINK it does. It does not.

  • DemonSeed.3528DemonSeed.3528 Member ✭✭✭✭

    It does an auditory ding but doesn't ping location on minimap. I have used this many times. When you use it and no enemies are within its radius whether they are visible/stealthed, it will not do an auditory ding.

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @DemonSeed.3528 said:
    It does an auditory ding but doesn't ping location on minimap. I have used this many times. When you use it and no enemies are within its radius whether they are visible/stealthed, it will not do an auditory ding.

    @KeyOrion.9506 It does. As pointed out here. And how is responding directly to you “going off on a tangent?” It’s pretty much a direct refutation, based on actual experience with the mechanic. Your assertion of “I tested this so and it doesn’t” is either untrue or based on a minunderstanding on your part.

    To clarify, the audio for detection plays even if the thief isn’t visible. If the auto-marked debuff is active then there are only a few spots where they can be hiding. It can help you figure out if the keep is clear or not (especially when it isn’t a fresh keep and won’t have the auto-marking effect active).

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • Burnfall.9573Burnfall.9573 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 29, 2020

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    6 sec non stack able stealth but replenisheable would be reasonable since the thief can re apply but not stack. Be a nerf but still serviceable by the thieves. That said any major changes to stealth this many yrs into the game are very unlikely

    Since Guild Wars 2 beta; Thief Profession players gave countless, endless positive constructive suggestions, ideas and healthy advices to improve a near-healthy competitive experience for Thief Profession

    What did Anet do? Ignore them.

    Countless of Thief Nerf Wish lists and Thief Balance Suggestions Threads by Thief Profession players follow suit. What did Anet do in return?
    Threw all of them in the trash, setting a clear stage for creating a Toxic experience and a hostile environment for Thief Profession Players with the gaming community

    As i said throughout the years; since the beginning; if Anet wanted to create a healthy competitive experience and a healthy environment for Thief Professions player...they would. They won't because, why not? we need 'A Bad Guy Profession'

    It is like intentionally creating a 'Bad Guy Profession' to be used to control the gaming community...'to keep it in check' and for financial revenue.....why not? players will play will want to play 'The Bad Guy Profession' to feel like a Villain in increasing its Toxic influences with having Toxic Broken Bad Design Mechanics to cause strife to all Profession alike including new players and hope that they in return will chose to play 'The Bad Guy Profession' in hope of spending money in it to maximize its Destructive 'cool factor'...resulting in financial sale increase

    I will continue to Sympathize with the community and Thief Profession players but the one who is solely responsible for the Toxic instability with Thief Profession Players with the gaming community is Anet

    -They have the Power To Change or Continue To Rejoice Toxicity Doing Their Bidding-

    -Creating The Bad Guy Profession vs The Hero Profession/s is Guild Wars 2 Philosophy and it worked-

    'Situations that are present are there because you allow and tolerate them to continue'

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 29, 2020

    @Burnfall.9573

    I believe its more like... if they touch stealth code it m8 bork and they m8 have to take the game to a previous version >_> cause spagethi code to make at least stealth somehat playable will break the game.... stealth to "try" to render in time and reduce delay on enemy client must be like the spagethi monster it even m8 be optimazed on within the netcode.

    Slayers [XD] NSP Guild
    Yao Chen Herald/Ventari
    Ying Wuxian Renegade/Demon

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Burnfall.9573 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    6 sec non stack able stealth but replenisheable would be reasonable since the thief can re apply but not stack. Be a nerf but still serviceable by the thieves. That said any major changes to stealth this many yrs into the game are very unlikely

    Since Guild Wars 2 beta; Thief Profession players gave countless, endless positive constructive suggestions, ideas and healthy advices to improve a near-healthy competitive experience for Thief Profession

    What did Anet do? Ignore them.

    Countless of Thief Nerf Wish lists and Thief Balance Suggestions Threads by Thief Profession players follow suit. What did Anet do in return?
    Threw all of them in the trash, setting a clear stage for creating a Toxic experience and a hostile environment for Thief Profession Players with the gaming community

    As i said throughout the years; since the beginning; if Anet wanted to create a healthy competitive experience and a healthy environment for Thief Professions player...they would. They won't because, why not? we need 'A Bad Guy Profession'

    It is like intentionally creating a 'Bad Guy Profession' to be used to control the gaming community...'to keep it in check' and for financial revenue.....why not? players will play will want to play 'The Bad Guy Profession' to feel like a Villain in increasing its Toxic influences with having Toxic Broken Bad Design Mechanics to cause strife to all Profession alike including new players and hope that they in return will chose to play 'The Bad Guy Profession' in hope of spending money in it to maximize its Destructive 'cool factor'...resulting in financial sale increase

    I will continue to Sympathize with the community and Thief Profession players but the one who is solely responsible for the Toxic instability with Thief Profession Players with the gaming community is Anet

    -They have the Power To Change or Continue To Rejoice Toxicity Doing Their Bidding-

    -Creating The Bad Guy Profession vs The Hero Profession/s is Guild Wars 2 Philosophy and it worked-

    All that has to happen in the game is to regulate Stealth Attack window. You're trying too hard to make it sound like you're fighting the good fight when pretty much every thief on these forums has had to correct you at some point. If you're going to be that emotional and make your posts that long at least give some details, unless you just don't know what you're talking about.

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL] & [SD]

  • ilMasa.2546ilMasa.2546 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 6, 2020

    Every single MMORPG has a stealth mechanic and/or a stealth based class,but only in GW2 it is this broken:

    1) WoW :

    • u cannot stack stealth time by recast
    • there is a cd on use
    • anybody has a chance to detect an enemy in stealth mode (depending on distance & view angle)
    • cannot re-stealth in combat unless using specific skills

    2) Archage: (and this game has a HUGE p2w problem)

    • available to everyone (just need to pick the talent)
    • any actions other than moving will cause stealth to end
    • decreases Move Speed -30%
    • chance to detect an enemy in stealth mode based on proximity in frontal(long range detection),lateral(medium range detection) and rear (close range detection) view

    Number one is the "KING" of the industry the unkillable western bluprint for moneymaking,the evergreen WoW
    Number two is that one f2p-ish eastern "sandbox-at-the-beginning" MMORPG launched as of right now several times with different payment methods.
    And ofc there are many other games with stealth mechanics,i just wanted to pick 2 titles at the opposite side on the industry.

    What im trying to say is, it is not something new.
    So the moment u plan to have ANY sort of PVP you shuld be looking at ways to make a mechanic balanced before even PUSHING for COMPETITIVE MLG pvp for YEARS (failing at it,none the less).

    I only listed 4 major points describing the 2 stealth mechanics built in 2 kinda of popular games.But each point has a HUGE impact on it.
    And i find it funny that the most FAIR stealth mechanic can actually be found in that mess of Archage instead of,i dont know, GW2!?!

    While in MOST games the biggest benefit you get from stealth is a "tactical one " (opening on someone when you want) in GW2 u can even miss your actual opener and still stay stealthed.So u can actually make a bad decision but since u stacked your invis to 40 seconds and noone is aware of you u can reset,wait for cds and redo.
    Plus ALL the other things u can do with it.

    I dont want to be a jerk,but when in a game fast-paced like this u can play a class as a clicker in a PVP mode...m8 no.JUST NO

    We can talk about reveal (and the DE counter),we can talk about stationary sentries (and the range) or what? anti-stealth traps?! yea sure.

    These solutions dont work,most of the time.

    Lets make it so:

    • u can stack invisibility all you want( untill a reasonable max) but then you also get a proportional cd on stealth.(you stack 20 seconds you get no stealth for 20 seconds)
    • you reveal yourself when you USE an attack

    In this way you can still initiate whenever u want,u can stay in stealth how long you want but there is a trade off

  • aleron.1438aleron.1438 Member ✭✭✭

    A clicker with slow as hell reaction times on top. 0 stun breaks. You'd get eaten alive against any normal roamer. Others can see your motions of laying traps under you. If they had any brain, they would just wait you out away from them, and you'd be toast. Because again, clicker, slow reaction times, and 0 stun breaks, 0 shadowstep. Only rifle4 for condi removal and your HiS.

  • ASP.8093ASP.8093 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 6, 2020

    @ilMasa.2546 said:
    I dont want to be a jerk,but when in a game fast-paced like this u can play a class as a clicker in a PVP mode...m8 no.JUST NO

    Three things here:

    1. You could make a similar video with any class that has a big fat block. I remember a pretty funny one where a condi mesmer just stands in place slowly clicking skills (for dramatic effect) while a thief goes ham on him and accomplishes nothing.

    2. This is from before the damage nerf. Huge changes to viability of burst builds and a big shake-up to the meta in general.

    3. The Preparation gimmick he's trying to do isn't really working very well for him at all.

    @ilMasa.2546 said:
    We can talk about reveal (and the DE counter),we can talk about stationary sentries (and the range) or what? anti-stealth traps?! yea sure.

    These solutions dont work,most of the time.

    The counter to thieves isn't Revealed, it's burst mitigation, hard CC, and good sustain. A very powerful counter to Rifle Deadeye is reflect. Think of Revealed like Unblockable -- it's a helpful ability that sometimes lets you catch enemies with their pants down, but it doesn't completely negate the opponent's build (because, e.g., they've still got access to Protection and Invuln instead). The difference is that the WvW map isn't covered with Sentries and Towers that are constantly putting "Can't Block" on you.

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @jpsssss.7530 said:

    @kash.9213 said:
    Why not just limit Stealth Attack window instead of making a mess like that?

    Stealth attacks aren't the issue. The issue is thief literally has so many on command stealth abilities and that stealth is the best defensive (and offensive if you're a condi build) tool in the game with no real counter play.

    Stealth is the worst defensive tool. Block, Evade, Invuln are all far better. Hell its so bad at it Im not even sure stealth counts as a defensive tool.

    Sure it is. Except you can use it whenever you want and in combination with other skills. If stealth were one skill that lasted 3 seconds, required a channel, and had a 50s cd the way invuln does nobody would have a problem with it! But no. Stealth is an auto disengage with way too few restrictions on it. Worst design in the game.

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ilMasa.2546 said:
    Every single MMORPG has a stealth mechanic and/or a stealth based class,but only in GW2 it is this broken:

    1) WoW :

    • u cannot stack stealth time by recast
    • there is a cd on use
    • anybody has a chance to detect an enemy in stealth mode (depending on distance & view angle)
    • cannot re-stealth in combat unless using specific skills

    2) Archage: (and this game has a HUGE p2w problem)

    • available to everyone (just need to pick the talent)
    • any actions other than moving will cause stealth to end
    • decreases Move Speed -30%
    • chance to detect an enemy in stealth mode based on proximity in frontal(long range detection),lateral(medium range detection) and rear (close range detection) view

    Number one is the "KING" of the industry the unkillable western bluprint for moneymaking,the evergreen WoW
    Number two is that one f2p-ish eastern "sandbox-at-the-beginning" MMORPG launched as of right now several times with different payment methods.
    And ofc there are many other games with stealth mechanics,i just wanted to pick 2 titles at the opposite side on the industry.

    What im trying to say is, it is not something new.
    So the moment u plan to have ANY sort of PVP you shuld be looking at ways to make a mechanic balanced before even PUSHING for COMPETITIVE MLG pvp for YEARS (failing at it,none the less).

    I only listed 4 major points describing the 2 stealth mechanics built in 2 kinda of popular games.But each point has a HUGE impact on it.
    And i find it funny that the most FAIR stealth mechanic can actually be found in that mess of Archage instead of,i dont know, GW2!?!

    While in MOST games the biggest benefit you get from stealth is a "tactical one " (opening on someone when you want) in GW2 u can even miss your actual opener and still stay stealthed.So u can actually make a bad decision but since u stacked your invis to 40 seconds and noone is aware of you u can reset,wait for cds and redo.
    Plus ALL the other things u can do with it.

    I dont want to be a jerk,but when in a game fast-paced like this u can play a class as a clicker in a PVP mode...m8 no.JUST NO

    We can talk about reveal (and the DE counter),we can talk about stationary sentries (and the range) or what? anti-stealth traps?! yea sure.

    These solutions dont work,most of the time.

    **Lets make it so:

    • u can stack invisibility all you want( untill a reasonable max) but then you also get a proportional cd on stealth.(you stack 20 seconds you get no stealth for 20 seconds)
    • you reveal yourself when you USE an attack

    In this way you can still initiate whenever u want,u can stay in stealth how long you want but there is a trade off**

    Put a cap on Stealth Attack duration and maybe some visual+audio indicator of a stealthed player that changes on proximity radius. That's it, all that trash from trash games you posted about isn't needed here, because those are different combat systems. Everything else about stealth is fine and done well in this game especially for how active and engaging it is to use but also for how easy it can be to counter a player in stealth apart from some immediate resetting potential. Stealth play has to be sustained and takes resource or slots shared with damage and control skills.

    You're last bit there only really kitten with more balanced stealth builds that you probably wouldn't have a problem with but it still leaves a nice big window for gimmick builds who are likely going to reset the fight during that cooldown.

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL] & [SD]

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @jpsssss.7530 said:

    @kash.9213 said:
    Why not just limit Stealth Attack window instead of making a mess like that?

    Stealth attacks aren't the issue. The issue is thief literally has so many on command stealth abilities and that stealth is the best defensive (and offensive if you're a condi build) tool in the game with no real counter play.

    Stealth is the worst defensive tool. Block, Evade, Invuln are all far better. Hell its so bad at it Im not even sure stealth counts as a defensive tool.

    Sure it is. Except you can use it whenever you want and in combination with other skills. If stealth were one skill that lasted 3 seconds, required a channel, and had a 50s cd the way invuln does nobody would have a problem with it! But no. Stealth is an auto disengage with way too few restrictions on it. Worst design in the game.

    I'd take more blocks, evades, and invuln over stealth if I got to keep Initiative. Those would likely be passive secondary mods instead of sharing resource pool and skill slots making every stealth use a balance meter between stealth or damage and control.

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL] & [SD]

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Azreell.1568 said:
    Is there absolutely anything this player base will not complain about???

    Stealth is easily countered in group play especially with hammer revs in the current meta on pushes so it's not like everyone doesn't have access to reveals.

    Also other classes have access to reveals as well - add into that the Marked debuff.

    I mean stealth is very balanced as it stands in group play.

    Now, for roaming - which this game mode should never be balanced from sure stealth is an advantage but not overpowered. Some classes are designed with having stealth in mind.

    But, lets be frank - dead eye riffle spec would be a free kill without it and is only viable in roaming - so that's it's thing. Its useless pretty much in all other game modes.

    Here's what I got out of this post , "Stealth is OP and it makes me tink man. I know itz got dem counters but I have to use my brain. IT SHOULD BE NERFED. LONG LIVE THE OLD SCHOOL HAMMER TRAIN BOYZ".......

    No thanx.............

    So stealth is busted for roaming with classes designed around it. Answer: redesign?

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @kash.9213 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @jpsssss.7530 said:

    @kash.9213 said:
    Why not just limit Stealth Attack window instead of making a mess like that?

    Stealth attacks aren't the issue. The issue is thief literally has so many on command stealth abilities and that stealth is the best defensive (and offensive if you're a condi build) tool in the game with no real counter play.

    Stealth is the worst defensive tool. Block, Evade, Invuln are all far better. Hell its so bad at it Im not even sure stealth counts as a defensive tool.

    Sure it is. Except you can use it whenever you want and in combination with other skills. If stealth were one skill that lasted 3 seconds, required a channel, and had a 50s cd the way invuln does nobody would have a problem with it! But no. Stealth is an auto disengage with way too few restrictions on it. Worst design in the game.

    I'd take more blocks, evades, and invuln over stealth if I got to keep Initiative. Those would likely be passive secondary mods instead of sharing resource pool and skill slots making every stealth use a balance meter between stealth or damage and control.

    I'd prefer it. This game has good combat feel, but it's ruined by class design that makes it too difficult for people to actually fight each other. Too much mobility, stealth, and CC. I think it would feel better with less auto disengage and more fighting.

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 6, 2020

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @kash.9213 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @jpsssss.7530 said:

    @kash.9213 said:
    Why not just limit Stealth Attack window instead of making a mess like that?

    Stealth attacks aren't the issue. The issue is thief literally has so many on command stealth abilities and that stealth is the best defensive (and offensive if you're a condi build) tool in the game with no real counter play.

    Stealth is the worst defensive tool. Block, Evade, Invuln are all far better. Hell its so bad at it Im not even sure stealth counts as a defensive tool.

    Sure it is. Except you can use it whenever you want and in combination with other skills. If stealth were one skill that lasted 3 seconds, required a channel, and had a 50s cd the way invuln does nobody would have a problem with it! But no. Stealth is an auto disengage with way too few restrictions on it. Worst design in the game.

    I'd take more blocks, evades, and invuln over stealth if I got to keep Initiative. Those would likely be passive secondary mods instead of sharing resource pool and skill slots making every stealth use a balance meter between stealth or damage and control.

    I'd prefer it. This game has good combat feel, but it's ruined by class design that makes it too difficult for people to actually fight each other. Too much mobility, stealth, and CC. I think it would feel better with less auto disengage and more fighting.

    I don't think you'd prefer it, there would be less tells and far more aggravating sustain. You don't want to take away something that people have to work for and throw in a bunch of passive mods.

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL] & [SD]

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @jpsssss.7530 said:

    @kash.9213 said:
    Why not just limit Stealth Attack window instead of making a mess like that?

    Stealth attacks aren't the issue. The issue is thief literally has so many on command stealth abilities and that stealth is the best defensive (and offensive if you're a condi build) tool in the game with no real counter play.

    Stealth is the worst defensive tool. Block, Evade, Invuln are all far better. Hell its so bad at it Im not even sure stealth counts as a defensive tool.

    Sure it is. Except you can use it whenever you want and in combination with other skills. If stealth were one skill that lasted 3 seconds, required a channel, and had a 50s cd the way invuln does nobody would have a problem with it! But no. Stealth is an auto disengage with way too few restrictions on it. Worst design in the game.

    "You can use it whenever you want", uh, as opposed to blocks, invulns and evades which ... you also can use whenever you want? Hell, its worse than that, because Evades, Blocks and Invulns tend to activate instantly, whereas stealth does not, and usually has a lengthy cast time. Also, "you can use it in combination with other skills", in that case its those other skills doing all the work, and invisiblity provided next to nothing. Stealth is not "an auto disengage with way too few restrictions on it" (quite the opposite, its the only way a thief can get himself killed). Shortbow 5 is that.

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @jpsssss.7530 said:

    @kash.9213 said:
    Why not just limit Stealth Attack window instead of making a mess like that?

    Stealth attacks aren't the issue. The issue is thief literally has so many on command stealth abilities and that stealth is the best defensive (and offensive if you're a condi build) tool in the game with no real counter play.

    Stealth is the worst defensive tool. Block, Evade, Invuln are all far better. Hell its so bad at it Im not even sure stealth counts as a defensive tool.

    Sure it is. Except you can use it whenever you want and in combination with other skills. If stealth were one skill that lasted 3 seconds, required a channel, and had a 50s cd the way invuln does nobody would have a problem with it! But no. Stealth is an auto disengage with way too few restrictions on it. Worst design in the game.

    "You can use it whenever you want", uh, as opposed to blocks, invulns and evades which ... you also can use whenever you want? Hell, its worse than that, because Evades, Blocks and Invulns tend to activate instantly, whereas stealth does not, and usually has a lengthy cast time. Also, "you can use it in combination with other skills", in that case its those other skills doing all the work, and invisiblity provided next to nothing. Stealth is not "an auto disengage with way too few restrictions on it" (quite the opposite, its the only way a thief can get himself killed). Shortbow 5 is that.

    Like I said. Too much stealth and mobility. Too few counters and restrictions. A class that is designed to be unhittable and to escape from any fight whenever they want is poor design.

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 7, 2020

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:
    Like I said. Too much stealth and mobility. Too few counters and restrictions. A class that is designed to be unhittable and to escape from any fight whenever they want is poor design.

    As someone who dabbles in Thief myself, I would like to add that the problem isn't only "too much" but also "too often"
    This is a serious Initiative mechanic problem which needs a balance rework eventually, or Thief is forever going to be the scourge of competitive modes.

    Stealth, whenever they want, as much as they need.
    Immob, whenever they want, as much as they want until resource runs out.
    Mobility, whenever they want, as much as they need.
    Damage, whenever they want, as much as they need. (which essentially spits in the face of the 33% Power nerf across the board because they can just make up for reduced damage by simply going at it longer until the target dies, not to mention the oppression mainly comes from Condi builds anyway)

    Only thing they don't poop out is Heals after popular heal or regen traits being hammered into the dirt.

    Pretty sure every Thief main is gonna hate on me, but I think Ini mechanic needs to have a 1 second global cooldown on all weapon skills.

    It's simply too much too often too fast, even if the cost of that is resource downtime, because yu can always put yurself out of the reach of the enemy in 2 utility skills and try again in 10 seconds, while the opponent has like, a 10 - 15 second long cooldown on most of their weapon skills, and their utilities are as long or longer than Thief's.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • ilMasa.2546ilMasa.2546 Member ✭✭✭

    @ASP.8093 said:

    @ilMasa.2546 said:
    I dont want to be a jerk,but when in a game fast-paced like this u can play a class as a clicker in a PVP mode...m8 no.JUST NO

    Three things here:

    1. You could make a similar video with any class that has a big fat block. I remember a pretty funny one where a condi mesmer just stands in place slowly clicking skills (for dramatic effect) while a thief goes ham on him and accomplishes nothing.

    2. This is from before the damage nerf. Huge changes to viability of burst builds and a big shake-up to the meta in general.

    3. The Preparation gimmick he's trying to do isn't really working very well for him at all.

    @ilMasa.2546 said:
    We can talk about reveal (and the DE counter),we can talk about stationary sentries (and the range) or what? anti-stealth traps?! yea sure.

    These solutions dont work,most of the time.

    The counter to thieves isn't Revealed, it's burst mitigation, hard CC, and good sustain. A very powerful counter to Rifle Deadeye is reflect. Think of Revealed like Unblockable -- it's a helpful ability that sometimes lets you catch enemies with their pants down, but it doesn't completely negate the opponent's build (because, e.g., they've still got access to Protection and Invuln instead). The difference is that the WvW map isn't covered with Sentries and Towers that are constantly putting "Can't Block" on you.

    I do understand that,but the point is an other tho.
    I cannot spam hard cc,i cannot spam reflects 24/7.What im saying is i pay the price for my decisions,as it is supposed to be.
    So if i see a thief coming and i manage to dodge or block his opener i shuld get rewarded cos i played it good,right?Like i timed my dodge,i used a counter in the best moment possible and denied his dmg.

    In reality it is not the case,cos i lose a dodge and/or i get a big cd on a block.Where is the reward?
    Did i blocked the dmg? Yes
    So now i shuld be able to answer him because he should be vulnerable,is this the case?Cause if it is not the case it's going to be just an other reset,after an other.

    My CDs cannot be refreshed as much as stealth.You talk about reflect,i have ONE reflect and if i use it ill get a 20 sec cd at best.How long is a reveal cd:15/20 secs or even more?And we are talking about a class that keeps the stealth up even if it attacks the target BUT miss the attack. Where is the trade off?

    just like the warrior signet was passively healing for too much,stealth in this game gives too much

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 7, 2020

    @ASP.8093 said:

    @ilMasa.2546 said:
    I dont want to be a jerk,but when in a game fast-paced like this u can play a class as a clicker in a PVP mode...m8 no.JUST NO

    Three things here:

    1. You could make a similar video with any class that has a big fat block. I remember a pretty funny one where a condi mesmer just stands in place slowly clicking skills (for dramatic effect) while a thief goes ham on him and accomplishes nothing.

    2. This is from before the damage nerf. Huge changes to viability of burst builds and a big shake-up to the meta in general.

    3. The Preparation gimmick he's trying to do isn't really working very well for him at all.

    @ilMasa.2546 said:
    We can talk about reveal (and the DE counter),we can talk about stationary sentries (and the range) or what? anti-stealth traps?! yea sure.

    These solutions dont work,most of the time.

    The counter to thieves isn't Revealed, it's burst mitigation, hard CC, and good sustain. A very powerful counter to Rifle Deadeye is reflect. Think of Revealed like Unblockable -- it's a helpful ability that sometimes lets you catch enemies with their pants down, but it doesn't completely negate the opponent's build (because, e.g., they've still got access to Protection and Invuln instead). The difference is that the WvW map isn't covered with Sentries and Towers that are constantly putting "Can't Block" on you.

    He m8 be reaveaeled, but enemy m8 not see that in time due delay/desync,l lag etc....

    its like a "perma quickness" with 40-50+ using superspeed+quickness+alacrity out of a stealth bomb, 1st u die then u see the aoe then the enemy atacks....

    Slayers [XD] NSP Guild
    Yao Chen Herald/Ventari
    Ying Wuxian Renegade/Demon

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Basically how A-net handles balance, and how the community sees anything that can be worked into an advantage against a lesser skilled player.

  • Sir Alymer.3406Sir Alymer.3406 Member ✭✭✭

    @AikijinX.6258 said:
    The Problem is that Anet gave Stealth access to almost every class, when it was supposed to be unique to Thieves and I suppose Mesmers. Every class has some type of uniqueness to them, while ironically Thieves have had their uniqueness in Stealth stolen as well as heavily neutered, with all these abilities placing Reveal and Marked on them.

    Too much stealth- People complain
    Too much evade- People complain
    Too much damage- People complain
    Too much mobility- People complain
    Too many teleports- People complain
    Too much blind- People complain
    Too many spammable skills- People complain
    Too much access to poison- People complain
    Too much condition capability- People complain
    Ability to Teleport allies- People Complain

    People need to chill.

    Mh, what makes thief powerful is the WvW maps. Maximum mobility + stealth + huge maps allowing the thief to break combat. Initiative regenerates and the thief can come back to try the burst again. It's more just too much evade and mobility with any amount of stealth on a big map where the thief can just go in any which way (And hitting a stealthed target doesn't show any sort of tell or give any sort of feedback that, yes, you've found them.)