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  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Yasai.3549 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:
    Like I said. Too much stealth and mobility. Too few counters and restrictions. A class that is designed to be unhittable and to escape from any fight whenever they want is poor design.

    As someone who dabbles in Thief myself, I would like to add that the problem isn't only "too much" but also "too often"
    This is a serious Initiative mechanic problem which needs a balance rework eventually, or Thief is forever going to be the scourge of competitive modes.

    Stealth, whenever they want, as much as they need.
    Immob, whenever they want, as much as they want until resource runs out.
    Mobility, whenever they want, as much as they need.
    Damage, whenever they want, as much as they need. (which essentially spits in the face of the 33% Power nerf across the board because they can just make up for reduced damage by simply going at it longer until the target dies, not to mention the oppression mainly comes from Condi builds anyway)

    Only thing they don't poop out is Heals after popular heal or regen traits being hammered into the dirt.

    Pretty sure every Thief main is gonna hate on me, but I think Ini mechanic needs to have a 1 second global cooldown on all weapon skills.

    It's simply too much too often too fast, even if the cost of that is resource downtime, because yu can always put yurself out of the reach of the enemy in 2 utility skills and try again in 10 seconds, while the opponent has like, a 10 - 15 second long cooldown on most of their weapon skills, and their utilities are as long or longer than Thief's.

    If thieves were the "scourge of competitive modes" people would ask for them more, if ever.
    If "whenever they want, as much as needed" were a reality no one would play anything else.
    Leave Initiative alone, what are you even trying to accomplish besides making unnecessary changes just to make it look like something's being done about something?
    Just to add one more thing to your list, I can get enough self healing or leeching to make a difference in a fight so you can make it sound like one class has one more thing and no one else has it.

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL] & [SD]

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 7, 2020

    @kash.9213 said:

    Just to add one more thing to your list, I can get enough self healing or leeching to make a difference in a fight so you can make it sound like one class has one more thing and no one else has it.

    Hmm yes, that's true.
    Looks like Thieves need a huge nerf to Steal and Withdraw then, since they are able to use them so often.

    Always felt Withdraw was busted as heck for not only removing Movement impairment, Evading and Healing, but SA makes it go Stealth as well.
    And Steal? If used with all them traits, becomes an extremely busted multi effect skill which can have a cooldown as low as 17 seconds.

    Mmm yes I wish other Professions had a Skill which is better than most Elite skills on 17 seconds cooldown.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 7, 2020

    @Yasai.3549 said:

    @kash.9213 said:

    Just to add one more thing to your list, I can get enough self healing or leeching to make a difference in a fight so you can make it sound like one class has one more thing and no one else has it.

    Hmm yes, that's true.
    Looks like Thieves need a huge nerf to Steal and Withdraw then, since they are able to use them so often.

    Always felt Withdraw was busted as heck for not only removing Movement impairment, Evading and Healing, but SA makes it go Stealth as well.
    And Steal? If used with all them traits, becomes an extremely busted multi effect skill which can have a cooldown as low as 17 seconds.

    Mmm yes I wish other Professions had a Skill which is better than most Elite skills on 17 seconds cooldown.

    That's why I mentioned it, seemed like another non issue you'd make a big deal out of and try to nerf something you don't like playing against. I was mostly talking about SA and the only change I would make is to take out stealth on Heal skill since that makes Heal annoying to use.

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL] & [SD]

  • @Vlad Morbius.1759 said:
    Too much of it in game now, far too many classes have it and it is highly unbalanced. I'm not saying get rid of it but limit the damage you can do while invisible it is OP today and it is a ridiculously overused skill which should be a clear indication that it is too powerful. Remove things like stealth burst, how about removing boons when you go invis, there has to be a cost to this.

    What about restoring target lock after stealth / invis ends? Assuming you do not target away first of course. Would it make fights any better?

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @jpsssss.7530 said:

    @kash.9213 said:
    Why not just limit Stealth Attack window instead of making a mess like that?

    Stealth attacks aren't the issue. The issue is thief literally has so many on command stealth abilities and that stealth is the best defensive (and offensive if you're a condi build) tool in the game with no real counter play.

    Stealth is the worst defensive tool. Block, Evade, Invuln are all far better. Hell its so bad at it Im not even sure stealth counts as a defensive tool.

    Sure it is. Except you can use it whenever you want and in combination with other skills. If stealth were one skill that lasted 3 seconds, required a channel, and had a 50s cd the way invuln does nobody would have a problem with it! But no. Stealth is an auto disengage with way too few restrictions on it. Worst design in the game.

    "You can use it whenever you want", uh, as opposed to blocks, invulns and evades which ... you also can use whenever you want? Hell, its worse than that, because Evades, Blocks and Invulns tend to activate instantly, whereas stealth does not, and usually has a lengthy cast time. Also, "you can use it in combination with other skills", in that case its those other skills doing all the work, and invisiblity provided next to nothing. Stealth is not "an auto disengage with way too few restrictions on it" (quite the opposite, its the only way a thief can get himself killed). Shortbow 5 is that.

    Like I said. Too much stealth and mobility. Too few counters and restrictions. A class that is designed to be unhittable and to escape from any fight whenever they want is poor design.

    Too much mobility you can argue. Too much stealth? Stealth is not even useful outside of out of combat scenarios, and in those cases "too much" seems to mean "any access to it at all". Thief is not at all designed to be unhittable (quite the opposite. If the thief doesnt run, theyre one of the easiest classes to hit. Part of why they always have to run). And sure, you could argue that thief always being able to escape from any fight is problematic. But A, that has nothing to do with stealth and is an entirely different conversation, and B, so can Warrior and Ranger, and I dont see you calling for their head.

  • ilMasa.2546ilMasa.2546 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 9, 2020

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @jpsssss.7530 said:

    @kash.9213 said:
    Why not just limit Stealth Attack window instead of making a mess like that?

    Stealth attacks aren't the issue. The issue is thief literally has so many on command stealth abilities and that stealth is the best defensive (and offensive if you're a condi build) tool in the game with no real counter play.

    Stealth is the worst defensive tool. Block, Evade, Invuln are all far better. Hell its so bad at it Im not even sure stealth counts as a defensive tool.

    Sure it is. Except you can use it whenever you want and in combination with other skills. If stealth were one skill that lasted 3 seconds, required a channel, and had a 50s cd the way invuln does nobody would have a problem with it! But no. Stealth is an auto disengage with way too few restrictions on it. Worst design in the game.

    "You can use it whenever you want", uh, as opposed to blocks, invulns and evades which ... you also can use whenever you want? Hell, its worse than that, because Evades, Blocks and Invulns tend to activate instantly, whereas stealth does not, and usually has a lengthy cast time. Also, "you can use it in combination with other skills", in that case its those other skills doing all the work, and invisiblity provided next to nothing. Stealth is not "an auto disengage with way too few restrictions on it" (quite the opposite, its the only way a thief can get himself killed). Shortbow 5 is that.

    Like I said. Too much stealth and mobility. Too few counters and restrictions. A class that is designed to be unhittable and to escape from any fight whenever they want is poor design.

    Too much mobility you can argue. Too much stealth? Stealth is not even useful outside of out of combat scenarios, and in those cases "too much" seems to mean "any access to it at all". Thief is not at all designed to be unhittable (quite the opposite. If the thief doesnt run, theyre one of the easiest classes to hit. Part of why they always have to run). And sure, you could argue that thief always being able to escape from any fight is problematic. But A, that has nothing to do with stealth and is an entirely different conversation, and B, so can Warrior and Ranger, and I dont see you calling for their head.

    Maybe because it's a discussion about stealth and how it sinergize with the thief class?! Noone complains about the mobility.

    The problem with warriors was the crazy SINERGY between the healing signet and their mobility. (plus ofc all the rest of their toolkit)
    The signet alone wasnt that great, but the moment u give that passive regen to a class like a warrior, it's gg.

    The same goes for thieves and stealth. It wasnt mobility alone that led to

    • solo Slothasor kill
    • perma stealth condi trapper

    It is the Sinergy this profession has with all these mechanics. So you cannot have both,u have to pick one:

    • tone down mechanics
    • tone down how the class interact with the mechanics
  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ilMasa.2546 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @jpsssss.7530 said:

    @kash.9213 said:
    Why not just limit Stealth Attack window instead of making a mess like that?

    Stealth attacks aren't the issue. The issue is thief literally has so many on command stealth abilities and that stealth is the best defensive (and offensive if you're a condi build) tool in the game with no real counter play.

    Stealth is the worst defensive tool. Block, Evade, Invuln are all far better. Hell its so bad at it Im not even sure stealth counts as a defensive tool.

    Sure it is. Except you can use it whenever you want and in combination with other skills. If stealth were one skill that lasted 3 seconds, required a channel, and had a 50s cd the way invuln does nobody would have a problem with it! But no. Stealth is an auto disengage with way too few restrictions on it. Worst design in the game.

    "You can use it whenever you want", uh, as opposed to blocks, invulns and evades which ... you also can use whenever you want? Hell, its worse than that, because Evades, Blocks and Invulns tend to activate instantly, whereas stealth does not, and usually has a lengthy cast time. Also, "you can use it in combination with other skills", in that case its those other skills doing all the work, and invisiblity provided next to nothing. Stealth is not "an auto disengage with way too few restrictions on it" (quite the opposite, its the only way a thief can get himself killed). Shortbow 5 is that.

    Like I said. Too much stealth and mobility. Too few counters and restrictions. A class that is designed to be unhittable and to escape from any fight whenever they want is poor design.

    Too much mobility you can argue. Too much stealth? Stealth is not even useful outside of out of combat scenarios, and in those cases "too much" seems to mean "any access to it at all". Thief is not at all designed to be unhittable (quite the opposite. If the thief doesnt run, theyre one of the easiest classes to hit. Part of why they always have to run). And sure, you could argue that thief always being able to escape from any fight is problematic. But A, that has nothing to do with stealth and is an entirely different conversation, and B, so can Warrior and Ranger, and I dont see you calling for their head.

    Maybe because it's a discussion about stealth and how it sinergize with the thief class?! Noone complains about the mobility.

    But that doesnt answer the question of "why do you complain about something that isnt a problem for the reasons you describe, and instead ascribe problems to it that actually are problems with mobility". Now people do complain about the mobility, but even if they didnt, thats the point. Theyre complaining about the wrong thing.

    The problem with warriors was the crazy SINERGY between the healing signet and their mobility. (plus ofc all the rest of their toolkit)
    The signet alone wasnt that great, but the moment u give that passive regen to a class like a warrior, it's gg.

    The same goes for thieves and stealth. It wasnt mobility alone that led to

    • solo Slothasor kill
    • perma stealth condi trapper

    Why are you bringing up PvE here? Also, the latter doesnt exist, and Im pretty sure never existed because of how bad traps were.

    It is the Sinergy this profession has with all these mechanics. So you cannot have both,u have to pick one:

    • tone down mechanics
    • tone down how the class interact with the mechanics

    Except there is no real "synergy" you described. You showed 2 instances of thief using stealth for something. One in PvE. The other a likely terrible build in WvW or PvP that no longer exists.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @jpsssss.7530 said:

    @kash.9213 said:
    Why not just limit Stealth Attack window instead of making a mess like that?

    Stealth attacks aren't the issue. The issue is thief literally has so many on command stealth abilities and that stealth is the best defensive (and offensive if you're a condi build) tool in the game with no real counter play.

    Stealth is the worst defensive tool. Block, Evade, Invuln are all far better. Hell its so bad at it Im not even sure stealth counts as a defensive tool.

    Sure it is. Except you can use it whenever you want and in combination with other skills. If stealth were one skill that lasted 3 seconds, required a channel, and had a 50s cd the way invuln does nobody would have a problem with it! But no. Stealth is an auto disengage with way too few restrictions on it. Worst design in the game.

    "You can use it whenever you want", uh, as opposed to blocks, invulns and evades which ... you also can use whenever you want? Hell, its worse than that, because Evades, Blocks and Invulns tend to activate instantly, whereas stealth does not, and usually has a lengthy cast time. Also, "you can use it in combination with other skills", in that case its those other skills doing all the work, and invisiblity provided next to nothing. Stealth is not "an auto disengage with way too few restrictions on it" (quite the opposite, its the only way a thief can get himself killed). Shortbow 5 is that.

    Like I said. Too much stealth and mobility. Too few counters and restrictions. A class that is designed to be unhittable and to escape from any fight whenever they want is poor design.

    Too much mobility you can argue. Too much stealth? Stealth is not even useful outside of out of combat scenarios, and in those cases "too much" seems to mean "any access to it at all". Thief is not at all designed to be unhittable (quite the opposite. If the thief doesnt run, theyre one of the easiest classes to hit. Part of why they always have to run). And sure, you could argue that thief always being able to escape from any fight is problematic. But A, that has nothing to do with stealth and is an entirely different conversation, and B, so can Warrior and Ranger, and I dont see you calling for their head.

    Talking to you is pointless. Stealth is a massive advantage, particularly the completely unrestricted version of it they use in this game. It's been explained to you a million times. Agree to disagree. In my opinion, we need to spend less time disengaging and more time fighting.

    If youre unwilling to ever consider the possibility that youre wrong, then yes, talking to the guy who points out that youre wrong is pointless for you. Because youre wrong. Stealth is good, at times problematic, but not for the reasons you say. Its an incredible offensive tool out of combat. It lets you hide cast times and get the drop on enemies who never knew you were even there. But as a defensive tool? Its bad. Its the worst defensive tool by far, and most of the time its worse than just not using it in the first place.

    Sure, I can agree with that. But that would require a WvW split on infiltrators arrow, a nerf to it, and massive buffs to thieves 1v1 capabilities, because currently they are trash.

  • Deepcuts.9740Deepcuts.9740 Member ✭✭✭

    I rarely play WvW and only level 19 in PvP in 8k hours played.
    Stealth is the main reason I do not like those game modes.
    Getting 1 shot killed out of nowhere is not fun, not competitive and shows zero skill.

  • Many skills have casting times which gives time to dodge/counter. Useless if you can't see the animation or even target your opponent. Since people should not be complaining about 'massive disengage' then how about we all get in-combat wp. I mean, finishing a fight is not important. Right?

    Live and let live I say.

  • gousgou.5438gousgou.5438 Member ✭✭
    edited October 11, 2020

    @Sleepwalker.1398 said:

    See a someone who stealths alot coming to u, dude can you wait..i need to quickly buy some target painter.
    If that fails.....dude there is a sentry up, can you follow me there and fight.
    Well if that fails also....then, dude can you wait abit, i just took this tower and need to upgrade it and put watchtower tactic. can you come fight me after that?

    It is seriously your mistake for not packing target painters if you play WvW.

    Yeah it takes 2 slots from you bags but brainless aoe 50ppl trains visit merchants often enough to empty your bags.

  • Sleepwalker.1398Sleepwalker.1398 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @gousgou.5438 said:

    @Sleepwalker.1398 said:

    See a someone who stealths alot coming to u, dude can you wait..i need to quickly buy some target painter.
    If that fails.....dude there is a sentry up, can you follow me there and fight.
    Well if that fails also....then, dude can you wait abit, i just took this tower and need to upgrade it and put watchtower tactic. can you come fight me after that?

    It is seriously your mistake for not packing target painters if you play WvW.

    Yeah it takes 2 slots from you bags but brainless aoe 50ppl trains visit merchants often enough to empty your bags.

    My comment was a joke but here's the thing.
    I hope you know how painter and traps work.
    You can only set 1 at a time and it costs supply and thief can see you placing it with the animation it does.
    2nd, if you see red circle or him stealthing and you not fast enough, throwing the painter is a waste.
    3rd, thief may pick on a 50 man tail, but he'll surely be dumb to go take on a zerg head on.

  • Caedmon.6798Caedmon.6798 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 12, 2020

    Its fun how people nag about stealth while we have groups with a near permanent reflect + projectile destroy uptime and still pretend wvw is an 1on1 mode. People that get picked out of that blob,Should get picked out of that blob because youre simply,not good enough. You casuals have enough carry mechanics already.

  • Kylden Ar.3724Kylden Ar.3724 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sir Alymer.3406 said:
    (And hitting a stealthed target doesn't show any sort of tell or give any sort of feedback that, yes, you've found them.)

    Wrong. If you are using an Auto attack chain, and you hit a stealthed target, it goes to the next attack. Learn to cleave. I do this all the time to confirm where to bomb.

    How many times we gotta tell you GRIND IS NOT CONTENT there ANet?

    Leader of Tyrian Adventure Corp [TACO], [RaW][TACO] Alliance, Kaineng.

  • @Kylden Ar.3724 said:

    @Sir Alymer.3406 said:
    (And hitting a stealthed target doesn't show any sort of tell or give any sort of feedback that, yes, you've found them.)

    Wrong. If you are using an Auto attack chain, and you hit a stealthed target, it goes to the next attack. Learn to cleave. I do this all the time to confirm where to bomb.

    There aren't much in the way of auto attacks that have over 130 range that also progress and have a wide enough cleave range to hit a thief that's actually moving correctly. If you happen to hit a thief with something like that, good job. Now track them in the wide open space of WvW before your auto attack chain resets and you're back to square one.

  • ilMasa.2546ilMasa.2546 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 12, 2020

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @ilMasa.2546 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @jpsssss.7530 said:

    @kash.9213 said:
    Why not just limit Stealth Attack window instead of making a mess like that?

    Stealth attacks aren't the issue. The issue is thief literally has so many on command stealth abilities and that stealth is the best defensive (and offensive if you're a condi build) tool in the game with no real counter play.

    Stealth is the worst defensive tool. Block, Evade, Invuln are all far better. Hell its so bad at it Im not even sure stealth counts as a defensive tool.

    Sure it is. Except you can use it whenever you want and in combination with other skills. If stealth were one skill that lasted 3 seconds, required a channel, and had a 50s cd the way invuln does nobody would have a problem with it! But no. Stealth is an auto disengage with way too few restrictions on it. Worst design in the game.

    "You can use it whenever you want", uh, as opposed to blocks, invulns and evades which ... you also can use whenever you want? Hell, its worse than that, because Evades, Blocks and Invulns tend to activate instantly, whereas stealth does not, and usually has a lengthy cast time. Also, "you can use it in combination with other skills", in that case its those other skills doing all the work, and invisiblity provided next to nothing. Stealth is not "an auto disengage with way too few restrictions on it" (quite the opposite, its the only way a thief can get himself killed). Shortbow 5 is that.

    Like I said. Too much stealth and mobility. Too few counters and restrictions. A class that is designed to be unhittable and to escape from any fight whenever they want is poor design.

    Too much mobility you can argue. Too much stealth? Stealth is not even useful outside of out of combat scenarios, and in those cases "too much" seems to mean "any access to it at all". Thief is not at all designed to be unhittable (quite the opposite. If the thief doesnt run, theyre one of the easiest classes to hit. Part of why they always have to run). And sure, you could argue that thief always being able to escape from any fight is problematic. But A, that has nothing to do with stealth and is an entirely different conversation, and B, so can Warrior and Ranger, and I dont see you calling for their head.

    Maybe because it's a discussion about stealth and how it sinergize with the thief class?! Noone complains about the mobility.

    But that doesnt answer the question of "why do you complain about something that isnt a problem for the reasons you describe, and instead ascribe problems to it that actually are problems with mobility". Now people do complain about the mobility, but even if they didnt, thats the point. Theyre complaining about the wrong thing.

    Because when you say something like "Thief is not at all designed to be unhittable. (quite the opposite)" it sounds like the good old bs argument of " BUT thieves need (insert something) cos they are squishy".
    So if the profession is designed to be hittable (as you are saying),then the problem is defacto how the profession interacts with some mechanics.
    I mean,im not here talking about bigfoot,and if you think the stealth mechanic in this game is legit,you are delusional.

    The problem with warriors was the crazy SINERGY between the healing signet and their mobility. (plus ofc all the rest of their toolkit)
    The signet alone wasnt that great, but the moment u give that passive regen to a class like a warrior, it's gg.

    The same goes for thieves and stealth. It wasnt mobility alone that led to

    • solo Slothasor kill
    • perma stealth condi trapper

    Why are you bringing up PvE here? Also, the latter doesnt exist, and Im pretty sure never existed because of how bad traps were.

    Because even tho you quoted 6 lines of my words u locked-on only on 2 things:

    • Slothasor: pve,why pve in here,doesnt matter
    • perma stealth condi trapper "i dont even need to research,there is no such thing as a perma stealth condi trapper build: traps sucked,so"

    First, i was giving examples on the sinergy i was talking about.There are several other broken builds and those 2 were the first that came to my mind,tbh.
    Simple as that.
    Second since you were talking about a "mobility" issue ,those 2 fit perfectly cos it's not a mobility issue

    It is the Sinergy this profession has with all these mechanics. So you cannot have both,u have to pick one:

    • tone down mechanics
    • tone down how the class interact with the mechanics

    Except there is no real "synergy" you described. You showed 2 instances of thief using stealth for something. One in PvE. The other a likely terrible build in WvW or PvP that no longer exists.

    I dont need to show you 5 or more instances. Two should be "enuf" to understand the point im making.I dont care if u dont like those or not,doesnt matter.

  • gousgou.5438gousgou.5438 Member ✭✭
    edited October 12, 2020

    @Sleepwalker.1398 said:

    @gousgou.5438 said:

    @Sleepwalker.1398 said:

    See a someone who stealths alot coming to u, dude can you wait..i need to quickly buy some target painter.
    If that fails.....dude there is a sentry up, can you follow me there and fight.
    Well if that fails also....then, dude can you wait abit, i just took this tower and need to upgrade it and put watchtower tactic. can you come fight me after that?

    It is seriously your mistake for not packing target painters if you play WvW.

    Yeah it takes 2 slots from you bags but brainless aoe 50ppl trains visit merchants often enough to empty your bags.

    My comment was a joke but here's the thing.
    I hope you know how painter and traps work.
    You can only set 1 at a time and it costs supply and thief can see you placing it with the animation it does.
    2nd, if you see red circle or him stealthing and you not fast enough, throwing the painter is a waste.
    3rd, thief may pick on a 50 man tail, but he'll surely be dumb to go take on a zerg head on.

    They need to have a small field to allow counterplay. If the thief is fast enough they should get rewarded for playing around the trap. From my experience most thieves zone in for the kill and step right on it, allowing me to turn the tables.

    The cost is the only problem, I believe they should drastically lower it (like 1 resource cost) or remove it altogether.

    The painters can seriously hamper stealth play, apart from the cost the only thing I want to see is a set of quickslots so you can use items without having the inventory open. That would be a real QoL addition to the game!

    As for the zerg part I seriously believe that it is braindead-follow the crowd gameplay (and I say that to stress the way more relaxed than solo or small group roaming gameplay) that allows for way more flexibility regarding resupplying, selling trash and having backups from other people. People do not use consumables like the painters and disablers enough and it is a big mistake!

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ilMasa.2546 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @ilMasa.2546 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @jpsssss.7530 said:

    @kash.9213 said:
    Why not just limit Stealth Attack window instead of making a mess like that?

    Stealth attacks aren't the issue. The issue is thief literally has so many on command stealth abilities and that stealth is the best defensive (and offensive if you're a condi build) tool in the game with no real counter play.

    Stealth is the worst defensive tool. Block, Evade, Invuln are all far better. Hell its so bad at it Im not even sure stealth counts as a defensive tool.

    Sure it is. Except you can use it whenever you want and in combination with other skills. If stealth were one skill that lasted 3 seconds, required a channel, and had a 50s cd the way invuln does nobody would have a problem with it! But no. Stealth is an auto disengage with way too few restrictions on it. Worst design in the game.

    "You can use it whenever you want", uh, as opposed to blocks, invulns and evades which ... you also can use whenever you want? Hell, its worse than that, because Evades, Blocks and Invulns tend to activate instantly, whereas stealth does not, and usually has a lengthy cast time. Also, "you can use it in combination with other skills", in that case its those other skills doing all the work, and invisiblity provided next to nothing. Stealth is not "an auto disengage with way too few restrictions on it" (quite the opposite, its the only way a thief can get himself killed). Shortbow 5 is that.

    Like I said. Too much stealth and mobility. Too few counters and restrictions. A class that is designed to be unhittable and to escape from any fight whenever they want is poor design.

    Too much mobility you can argue. Too much stealth? Stealth is not even useful outside of out of combat scenarios, and in those cases "too much" seems to mean "any access to it at all". Thief is not at all designed to be unhittable (quite the opposite. If the thief doesnt run, theyre one of the easiest classes to hit. Part of why they always have to run). And sure, you could argue that thief always being able to escape from any fight is problematic. But A, that has nothing to do with stealth and is an entirely different conversation, and B, so can Warrior and Ranger, and I dont see you calling for their head.

    Maybe because it's a discussion about stealth and how it sinergize with the thief class?! Noone complains about the mobility.

    But that doesnt answer the question of "why do you complain about something that isnt a problem for the reasons you describe, and instead ascribe problems to it that actually are problems with mobility". Now people do complain about the mobility, but even if they didnt, thats the point. Theyre complaining about the wrong thing.

    Because when you say something like "Thief is not at all designed to be unhittable. (quite the opposite)" it sounds like the good old bs argument of " BUT thieves need (insert something) cos they are squishy".

    I mean they would need something if they were meant to be good at 1v1s. Yknow, like every class has? Its not like people complain about warrior having blocks and evades, and theyre not even squishy.

    So if the profession is designed to be hittable (as you are saying),then the problem is defacto how the profession interacts with some mechanics.

    Thats ... a leap of logic. If there is a problem with thief, its that they can always run away, thanks to shortbow 5. Shortbow 5 is the only thing you could argue should be changed. But that would require massive compensation buffs. And something tells me, you lot wont like that part.

    I mean,im not here talking about bigfoot,and if you think the stealth mechanic in this game is legit,you are delusional.

    Depends on where. Out of combat its too good. Being able to burst someone down before they know youre there is dumb. In-combat its actually quite underpowered on thief specifically. Its good if you want to hide a cast time (like Holo used to), but for thief? Its just an easy way to get killed.

    The problem with warriors was the crazy SINERGY between the healing signet and their mobility. (plus ofc all the rest of their toolkit)
    The signet alone wasnt that great, but the moment u give that passive regen to a class like a warrior, it's gg.

    The same goes for thieves and stealth. It wasnt mobility alone that led to

    • solo Slothasor kill
    • perma stealth condi trapper

    Why are you bringing up PvE here? Also, the latter doesnt exist, and Im pretty sure never existed because of how bad traps were.

    Because even tho you quoted 6 lines of my words u locked-on only on 2 things:

    • Slothasor: pve,why pve in here,doesnt matter

    Correct.

    • perma stealth condi trapper "i dont even need to research,there is no such thing as a perma stealth condi trapper build: traps sucked,so"

    Oh my, going all the way back to 5 years ago. Impressive. Question, did you actually play 5 years ago? Because spoiler: It wasnt good. It was actually a complete rubbish build. The same kind of troll thing as trap ranger.

    First, i was giving examples on the sinergy i was talking about.There are several other broken builds and those 2 were the first that came to my mind,tbh.

    If there were others more appropriate for this context, you wouldve used them. There arent, and thats why you didnt use them.

    Simple as that.
    Second since you were talking about a "mobility" issue ,those 2 fit perfectly cos it's not a mobility issue

    I ... what are you even saying here? "These examples fit perfectly because they are completely irrelevant"???

    It is the Sinergy this profession has with all these mechanics. So you cannot have both,u have to pick one:

    • tone down mechanics
    • tone down how the class interact with the mechanics

    Except there is no real "synergy" you described. You showed 2 instances of thief using stealth for something. One in PvE. The other a likely terrible build in WvW or PvP that no longer exists.

    I dont need to show you 5 or more instances. Two should be "enuf" to understand the point im making.I dont care if u dont like those or not,doesnt matter.

    You needed to show 1 instance of something that proved your point. You failed to do that. You showed 2 utterly irrelevant thing, one of which was even a garbage meme build, and thought it helps your point. The problem is, you dont have a point.

  • ilMasa.2546ilMasa.2546 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 12, 2020

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @ilMasa.2546 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @ilMasa.2546 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @jpsssss.7530 said:

    @kash.9213 said:
    Why not just limit Stealth Attack window instead of making a mess like that?

    Stealth attacks aren't the issue. The issue is thief literally has so many on command stealth abilities and that stealth is the best defensive (and offensive if you're a condi build) tool in the game with no real counter play.

    Stealth is the worst defensive tool. Block, Evade, Invuln are all far better. Hell its so bad at it Im not even sure stealth counts as a defensive tool.

    Sure it is. Except you can use it whenever you want and in combination with other skills. If stealth were one skill that lasted 3 seconds, required a channel, and had a 50s cd the way invuln does nobody would have a problem with it! But no. Stealth is an auto disengage with way too few restrictions on it. Worst design in the game.

    "You can use it whenever you want", uh, as opposed to blocks, invulns and evades which ... you also can use whenever you want? Hell, its worse than that, because Evades, Blocks and Invulns tend to activate instantly, whereas stealth does not, and usually has a lengthy cast time. Also, "you can use it in combination with other skills", in that case its those other skills doing all the work, and invisiblity provided next to nothing. Stealth is not "an auto disengage with way too few restrictions on it" (quite the opposite, its the only way a thief can get himself killed). Shortbow 5 is that.

    Like I said. Too much stealth and mobility. Too few counters and restrictions. A class that is designed to be unhittable and to escape from any fight whenever they want is poor design.

    Too much mobility you can argue. Too much stealth? Stealth is not even useful outside of out of combat scenarios, and in those cases "too much" seems to mean "any access to it at all". Thief is not at all designed to be unhittable (quite the opposite. If the thief doesnt run, theyre one of the easiest classes to hit. Part of why they always have to run). And sure, you could argue that thief always being able to escape from any fight is problematic. But A, that has nothing to do with stealth and is an entirely different conversation, and B, so can Warrior and Ranger, and I dont see you calling for their head.

    Maybe because it's a discussion about stealth and how it sinergize with the thief class?! Noone complains about the mobility.

    But that doesnt answer the question of "why do you complain about something that isnt a problem for the reasons you describe, and instead ascribe problems to it that actually are problems with mobility". Now people do complain about the mobility, but even if they didnt, thats the point. Theyre complaining about the wrong thing.

    Because when you say something like "Thief is not at all designed to be unhittable. (quite the opposite)" it sounds like the good old bs argument of " BUT thieves need (insert something) cos they are squishy".

    I mean they would need something if they were meant to be good at 1v1s. Yknow, like every class has? Its not like people complain about warrior having blocks and evades, and theyre not even squishy.

    So if the profession is designed to be hittable (as you are saying),then the problem is defacto how the profession interacts with some mechanics.

    Thats ... a leap of logic. If there is a problem with thief, its that they can always run away, thanks to shortbow 5. Shortbow 5 is the only thing you could argue should be changed. But that would require massive compensation buffs. And something tells me, you lot wont like that part.

    No.Because if both mobility (still the lesser issue) and stealth were toned down to a balanced level u could actually enjoy fighting a thief
    But then why a massive compensation?! You already have shadowstep,u could steal to get away and so on.
    It's exactly this mentality: you strip me of my cheesy mobility,then i want a MASSIVE compensation.

    A MASSIVE compensation ≠ balance

    I mean,im not here talking about bigfoot,and if you think the stealth mechanic in this game is legit,you are delusional.

    Depends on where. Out of combat its too good. Being able to burst someone down before they know youre there is dumb. In-combat its actually quite underpowered on thief specifically. Its good if you want to hide a cast time (like Holo used to), but for thief? Its just an easy way to get killed.

    Ok we could agree to some extent that there are some differences based on the situation (in combat,out of combat)
    But you cannot say it's quite underpowered in combat.


    Look at how it is so kitten underpowered in actual combat
    I see aoes,i see ground aoes,i see cleaves: i see people trying to following up an "almost always" invisible target and they simply cannot.
    This one is one month old,since we are talking about a mechanic interaction and not "builds" should be ok
    Inb4 "its A DE,not technically a thief"
    Inb4 "those are noobs"
    Inb4 "no traps/target painter"
    Pls add the one i forgot

    The problem with warriors was the crazy SINERGY between the healing signet and their mobility. (plus ofc all the rest of their toolkit)
    The signet alone wasnt that great, but the moment u give that passive regen to a class like a warrior, it's gg.

    The same goes for thieves and stealth. It wasnt mobility alone that led to

    • solo Slothasor kill
    • perma stealth condi trapper

    Why are you bringing up PvE here? Also, the latter doesnt exist, and Im pretty sure never existed because of how bad traps were.

    Because even tho you quoted 6 lines of my words u locked-on only on 2 things:

    • Slothasor: pve,why pve in here,doesnt matter

    Correct.

    Here is where i can tell,u dont know.
    You are dismissing a proof just cos it was featured IN A pve ACTIVITY and so has no place in a pvp context.
    But we are NOT talking about BUILDS but MECHANICS

    • First of all ,thief stealth is the SAME across ALL modes (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stealth the only exception being shadow meld,where u get 1 extra second of stealth in pve) and since we are talking about the mechanic and there is NO SPLIT : it is relevant cos it's the same in wvw.
    • Second it's almost the same build used in wvw back in those days
    • Third that build managed to solo a Boss because of how interact with STEALTH

    correct

    • perma stealth condi trapper "i dont even need to research,there is no such thing as a perma stealth condi trapper build: traps sucked,so"

    Oh my, going all the way back to 5 years ago. Impressive. Question, did you actually play 5 years ago? Because spoiler: It wasnt good. It was actually a complete rubbish build. The same kind of troll thing as trap ranger.

    So

    • First you said there was no such thing as this build (proved wrong)
    • Then u say it sucked and was a complete rubbish build(updated),but u didnt even remember that build so how do u know
    • As last resort you kitten about being a 6 year old build and question me if i was actually playing 5 years ago: i dont know....since between us im the one remembering that build i guess i was playing 5 years ago

    First, i was giving examples on the sinergy i was talking about.There are several other broken builds and those 2 were the first that came to my mind,tbh.

    If there were others more appropriate for this context, you wouldve used them. There arent, and thats why you didnt use them.

    Simple as that.
    Second since you were talking about a "mobility" issue ,those 2 fit perfectly cos it's not a mobility issue

    I ... what are you even saying here? "These examples fit perfectly because they are completely irrelevant"???

    answered above

    It is the Sinergy this profession has with all these mechanics. So you cannot have both,u have to pick one:

    • tone down mechanics
    • tone down how the class interact with the mechanics

    Except there is no real "synergy" you described. You showed 2 instances of thief using stealth for something. One in PvE. The other a likely terrible build in WvW or PvP that no longer exists.

    I dont need to show you 5 or more instances. Two should be "enuf" to understand the point im making.I dont care if u dont like those or not,doesnt matter.

    You needed to show 1 instance of something that proved your point. You failed to do that. You showed 2 utterly irrelevant thing, one of which was even a garbage meme build, and thought it helps your point. The problem is, you dont have a point.

    answered above

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ilMasa.2546 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @ilMasa.2546 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @ilMasa.2546 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @jpsssss.7530 said:

    @kash.9213 said:
    Why not just limit Stealth Attack window instead of making a mess like that?

    Stealth attacks aren't the issue. The issue is thief literally has so many on command stealth abilities and that stealth is the best defensive (and offensive if you're a condi build) tool in the game with no real counter play.

    Stealth is the worst defensive tool. Block, Evade, Invuln are all far better. Hell its so bad at it Im not even sure stealth counts as a defensive tool.

    Sure it is. Except you can use it whenever you want and in combination with other skills. If stealth were one skill that lasted 3 seconds, required a channel, and had a 50s cd the way invuln does nobody would have a problem with it! But no. Stealth is an auto disengage with way too few restrictions on it. Worst design in the game.

    "You can use it whenever you want", uh, as opposed to blocks, invulns and evades which ... you also can use whenever you want? Hell, its worse than that, because Evades, Blocks and Invulns tend to activate instantly, whereas stealth does not, and usually has a lengthy cast time. Also, "you can use it in combination with other skills", in that case its those other skills doing all the work, and invisiblity provided next to nothing. Stealth is not "an auto disengage with way too few restrictions on it" (quite the opposite, its the only way a thief can get himself killed). Shortbow 5 is that.

    Like I said. Too much stealth and mobility. Too few counters and restrictions. A class that is designed to be unhittable and to escape from any fight whenever they want is poor design.

    Too much mobility you can argue. Too much stealth? Stealth is not even useful outside of out of combat scenarios, and in those cases "too much" seems to mean "any access to it at all". Thief is not at all designed to be unhittable (quite the opposite. If the thief doesnt run, theyre one of the easiest classes to hit. Part of why they always have to run). And sure, you could argue that thief always being able to escape from any fight is problematic. But A, that has nothing to do with stealth and is an entirely different conversation, and B, so can Warrior and Ranger, and I dont see you calling for their head.

    Maybe because it's a discussion about stealth and how it sinergize with the thief class?! Noone complains about the mobility.

    But that doesnt answer the question of "why do you complain about something that isnt a problem for the reasons you describe, and instead ascribe problems to it that actually are problems with mobility". Now people do complain about the mobility, but even if they didnt, thats the point. Theyre complaining about the wrong thing.

    Because when you say something like "Thief is not at all designed to be unhittable. (quite the opposite)" it sounds like the good old bs argument of " BUT thieves need (insert something) cos they are squishy".

    I mean they would need something if they were meant to be good at 1v1s. Yknow, like every class has? Its not like people complain about warrior having blocks and evades, and theyre not even squishy.

    So if the profession is designed to be hittable (as you are saying),then the problem is defacto how the profession interacts with some mechanics.

    Thats ... a leap of logic. If there is a problem with thief, its that they can always run away, thanks to shortbow 5. Shortbow 5 is the only thing you could argue should be changed. But that would require massive compensation buffs. And something tells me, you lot wont like that part.

    No.Because if both mobility (still the lesser issue) and stealth were toned down to a balanced level u could actually enjoy fighting a thief
    But then why a massive compensation?! You already have shadowstep,u could steal to get away and so on.
    It's exactly this mentality: you strip me of my cheesy mobility,then i want a MASSIVE compensation.

    "Still the lesser issue", mate, mobility is the only issue. Stealth, outside of cheesy permastealth, is a complete non-issue. And fixing that is easy, give stealth an absolute max cap (6 seconds or so). And of course youd enjoy fighting a thief if they did that. Thief would just be a free kill. Terrible survivability in-fight, and inability to run away from every fight. Itd be useless. What youre suggesting is the equivalent of stripping weaver of all of its evades and then saying "oh you want compensation? But why, you still have lightning flash".

    A MASSIVE compensation ≠ balance

    Actually in this case it quite literally is balance. Thief is currently a very weak 1v1er (and a non-existent teamfighter) to balance out the fact that they can always run away and, essentially, fight on their own terms. Take that mobility away and youre left with a very weak 1v1er and non-existent teamfighter. Does that sound like balance to you? Then again, you dont seem to care about balance. You just want thief to be unplayable.

    I mean,im not here talking about bigfoot,and if you think the stealth mechanic in this game is legit,you are delusional.

    Depends on where. Out of combat its too good. Being able to burst someone down before they know youre there is dumb. In-combat its actually quite underpowered on thief specifically. Its good if you want to hide a cast time (like Holo used to), but for thief? Its just an easy way to get killed.

    Ok we could agree to some extent that there are some differences based on the situation (in combat,out of combat)
    But you cannot say it's quite underpowered in combat.

    You can. Because it is. Its trivially easy to punish, and gives you minimal benefits.


    Look at how it is so kitten underpowered in actual combat
    I see aoes,i see ground aoes,i see cleaves: i see people trying to following up an "almost always" invisible target and they simply cannot.
    This one is one month old,since we are talking about a mechanic interaction and not "builds" should be ok
    Inb4 "its A DE,not technically a thief"
    Inb4 "those are noobs"
    Inb4 "no traps/target painter"
    Pls add the one i forgot

    Ah yes, cherry-picked montages where he only shows the times he succeeded, and not the many more times he got curbstomped by enemies who know what theyre doing. The perfect evidence. Did the fact that most of the people in that montage are essentially Skyrim NPCs who "mustve been the wind" the second he is no longer visible not give it away that something is not quite right? Word of advice: Dont go full Burnfall.

    The problem with warriors was the crazy SINERGY between the healing signet and their mobility. (plus ofc all the rest of their toolkit)
    The signet alone wasnt that great, but the moment u give that passive regen to a class like a warrior, it's gg.

    The same goes for thieves and stealth. It wasnt mobility alone that led to

    • solo Slothasor kill
    • perma stealth condi trapper

    Why are you bringing up PvE here? Also, the latter doesnt exist, and Im pretty sure never existed because of how bad traps were.

    Because even tho you quoted 6 lines of my words u locked-on only on 2 things:

    • Slothasor: pve,why pve in here,doesnt matter

    Correct.

    Here is where i can tell,u dont know.

    Oh no, I do know. I know youre scraping the barrel for something, anything that could possibly support your point, but fail to find even an ything irrelevant.

    You are dismissing a proof just cos it was featured IN A pve ACTIVITY and so has no place in a pvp context.

    Correct. Because one is against AIs. The other is against players. Players are not AIs. They have different behaviour and different limitations.

    But we are NOT talking about BUILDS but MECHANICS

    Which doesnt change the fact that stealth vs AI is not the same as stealth vs Players.

    • First of all ,thief stealth is the SAME across ALL modes (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stealth the only exception being shadow meld,where u get 1 extra second of stealth in pve) and since we are talking about the mechanic and there is NO SPLIT : it is relevant cos it's the same in wvw.
    • Second it's almost the same build used in wvw back in those days
    • Third that build managed to solo a Boss because of how interact with STEALTH

    Nope. Again, stealth vs AI and stealth vs players is a very different thing. AI is designed to ignore you if youre in stealth entirely. It will not aim at you. It will not attack you. It certainly wont track you through stealth. So unless youre suggesting your personal gameplay is on the level of an AI (which would be quite the insult), its not applicable.

    • perma stealth condi trapper "i dont even need to research,there is no such thing as a perma stealth condi trapper build: traps sucked,so"

    Oh my, going all the way back to 5 years ago. Impressive. Question, did you actually play 5 years ago? Because spoiler: It wasnt good. It was actually a complete rubbish build. The same kind of troll thing as trap ranger.

    So

    • First you said there was no such thing as this build (proved wrong)

    A bad build is a non-existent build. Otherwise every build exists. PBM Holo is terrible, its a build that doesnt exist in PvP or WvW. I have however played it in both. So what, are we gonna talk about 18k damage from stealth is an issue now because of Holo? So yes, the build didnt exist, because it was so bad it might as well not exist.

    • Then u say it sucked and was a complete rubbish build(updated),but u didnt even remember that build so how do u know

    I remember that some people used a very bad build. But again, a bad build is a build that doesnt exist. Its an important distinction.

    • As last resort you kitten about being a 6 year old build and question me if i was actually playing 5 years ago: i dont know....since between us im the one remembering that build i guess i was playing 5 years ago

    No, because otherwise you wouldnt bring up a bad build that as such did not really exist. Something a handful of players out of a few tens of thousands play is not a build that exists.

    First, i was giving examples on the sinergy i was talking about.There are several other broken builds and those 2 were the first that came to my mind,tbh.

    If there were others more appropriate for this context, you wouldve used them. There arent, and thats why you didnt use them.

    Simple as that.
    Second since you were talking about a "mobility" issue ,those 2 fit perfectly cos it's not a mobility issue

    I ... what are you even saying here? "These examples fit perfectly because they are completely irrelevant"???

    answered above

    No, you didnt.

    It is the Sinergy this profession has with all these mechanics. So you cannot have both,u have to pick one:

    • tone down mechanics
    • tone down how the class interact with the mechanics

    Except there is no real "synergy" you described. You showed 2 instances of thief using stealth for something. One in PvE. The other a likely terrible build in WvW or PvP that no longer exists.

    I dont need to show you 5 or more instances. Two should be "enuf" to understand the point im making.I dont care if u dont like those or not,doesnt matter.

    You needed to show 1 instance of something that proved your point. You failed to do that. You showed 2 utterly irrelevant thing, one of which was even a garbage meme build, and thought it helps your point. The problem is, you dont have a point.

    answered above

    Still did not.

  • Kylden Ar.3724Kylden Ar.3724 Member ✭✭✭✭

    This entire thread has degenerated into useless name calling. It's the same back and forth arguments that keeps going on since time immeorial with the same getting nowhere and ANet not listening or giving any input.

    Your only way to not deal with stealth is learn to play around it, or never set foot in WvW/PvP again, or play a different game.

    How many times we gotta tell you GRIND IS NOT CONTENT there ANet?

    Leader of Tyrian Adventure Corp [TACO], [RaW][TACO] Alliance, Kaineng.

  • Sleepwalker.1398Sleepwalker.1398 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @gousgou.5438 said:

    @Sleepwalker.1398 said:

    @gousgou.5438 said:

    @Sleepwalker.1398 said:

    See a someone who stealths alot coming to u, dude can you wait..i need to quickly buy some target painter.
    If that fails.....dude there is a sentry up, can you follow me there and fight.
    Well if that fails also....then, dude can you wait abit, i just took this tower and need to upgrade it and put watchtower tactic. can you come fight me after that?

    It is seriously your mistake for not packing target painters if you play WvW.

    Yeah it takes 2 slots from you bags but brainless aoe 50ppl trains visit merchants often enough to empty your bags.

    My comment was a joke but here's the thing.
    I hope you know how painter and traps work.
    You can only set 1 at a time and it costs supply and thief can see you placing it with the animation it does.
    2nd, if you see red circle or him stealthing and you not fast enough, throwing the painter is a waste.
    3rd, thief may pick on a 50 man tail, but he'll surely be dumb to go take on a zerg head on.

    They need to have a small field to allow counterplay. If the thief is fast enough they should get rewarded for playing around the trap. From my experience most thieves zone in for the kill and step right on it, allowing me to turn the tables.

    The cost is the only problem, I believe they should drastically lower it (like 1 resource cost) or remove it altogether.

    The painters can seriously hamper stealth play, apart from the cost the only thing I want to see is a set of quickslots so you can use items without having the inventory open. That would be a real QoL addition to the game!

    As for the zerg part I seriously believe that it is braindead-follow the crowd gameplay (and I say that to stress the way more relaxed than solo or small group roaming gameplay) that allows for way more flexibility regarding resupplying, selling trash and having backups from other people. People do not use consumables like the painters and disablers enough and it is a big mistake!

    If for example you play against a double rifle Deadeye, he will not walk up to you when it is much safer to just press rifle 2 from distance and dodge for days cos the damage from rifle 2 is so rewarding.

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sleepwalker.1398 said:

    @gousgou.5438 said:

    @Sleepwalker.1398 said:

    @gousgou.5438 said:

    @Sleepwalker.1398 said:

    See a someone who stealths alot coming to u, dude can you wait..i need to quickly buy some target painter.
    If that fails.....dude there is a sentry up, can you follow me there and fight.
    Well if that fails also....then, dude can you wait abit, i just took this tower and need to upgrade it and put watchtower tactic. can you come fight me after that?

    It is seriously your mistake for not packing target painters if you play WvW.

    Yeah it takes 2 slots from you bags but brainless aoe 50ppl trains visit merchants often enough to empty your bags.

    My comment was a joke but here's the thing.
    I hope you know how painter and traps work.
    You can only set 1 at a time and it costs supply and thief can see you placing it with the animation it does.
    2nd, if you see red circle or him stealthing and you not fast enough, throwing the painter is a waste.
    3rd, thief may pick on a 50 man tail, but he'll surely be dumb to go take on a zerg head on.

    They need to have a small field to allow counterplay. If the thief is fast enough they should get rewarded for playing around the trap. From my experience most thieves zone in for the kill and step right on it, allowing me to turn the tables.

    The cost is the only problem, I believe they should drastically lower it (like 1 resource cost) or remove it altogether.

    The painters can seriously hamper stealth play, apart from the cost the only thing I want to see is a set of quickslots so you can use items without having the inventory open. That would be a real QoL addition to the game!

    As for the zerg part I seriously believe that it is braindead-follow the crowd gameplay (and I say that to stress the way more relaxed than solo or small group roaming gameplay) that allows for way more flexibility regarding resupplying, selling trash and having backups from other people. People do not use consumables like the painters and disablers enough and it is a big mistake!

    If for example you play against a double rifle Deadeye, he will not walk up to you when it is much safer to just press rifle 2 from distance and dodge for days cos the damage from rifle 2 is so rewarding.

    How do I dodge for days on a Rifle DE? That damage from rifle 2 isn't rewarding, it's just the most frugal and so about the only option.

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL] & [SD]

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kylden Ar.3724 said:
    This entire thread has degenerated into useless name calling. It's the same back and forth arguments that keeps going on since time immeorial with the same getting nowhere and ANet not listening or giving any input.

    Your only way to not deal with stealth is learn to play around it, or never set foot in WvW/PvP again, or play a different game.

    This^ welcome to gw2 forums.

  • Sleepwalker.1398Sleepwalker.1398 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @kash.9213 said:

    @Sleepwalker.1398 said:

    @gousgou.5438 said:

    @Sleepwalker.1398 said:

    @gousgou.5438 said:

    @Sleepwalker.1398 said:

    See a someone who stealths alot coming to u, dude can you wait..i need to quickly buy some target painter.
    If that fails.....dude there is a sentry up, can you follow me there and fight.
    Well if that fails also....then, dude can you wait abit, i just took this tower and need to upgrade it and put watchtower tactic. can you come fight me after that?

    It is seriously your mistake for not packing target painters if you play WvW.

    Yeah it takes 2 slots from you bags but brainless aoe 50ppl trains visit merchants often enough to empty your bags.

    My comment was a joke but here's the thing.
    I hope you know how painter and traps work.
    You can only set 1 at a time and it costs supply and thief can see you placing it with the animation it does.
    2nd, if you see red circle or him stealthing and you not fast enough, throwing the painter is a waste.
    3rd, thief may pick on a 50 man tail, but he'll surely be dumb to go take on a zerg head on.

    They need to have a small field to allow counterplay. If the thief is fast enough they should get rewarded for playing around the trap. From my experience most thieves zone in for the kill and step right on it, allowing me to turn the tables.

    The cost is the only problem, I believe they should drastically lower it (like 1 resource cost) or remove it altogether.

    The painters can seriously hamper stealth play, apart from the cost the only thing I want to see is a set of quickslots so you can use items without having the inventory open. That would be a real QoL addition to the game!

    As for the zerg part I seriously believe that it is braindead-follow the crowd gameplay (and I say that to stress the way more relaxed than solo or small group roaming gameplay) that allows for way more flexibility regarding resupplying, selling trash and having backups from other people. People do not use consumables like the painters and disablers enough and it is a big mistake!

    If for example you play against a double rifle Deadeye, he will not walk up to you when it is much safer to just press rifle 2 from distance and dodge for days cos the damage from rifle 2 is so rewarding.

    How do I dodge for days on a Rifle DE? That damage from rifle 2 isn't rewarding, it's just the most frugal and so about the only option.

    Pretty simple really, Signet of Agility, Energy sigil and endurance regen food.
    I used to play this, very rewarding but i got sick of it.
    Plus you can make a condi immob build too with rifle :)

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sleepwalker.1398 said:

    @kash.9213 said:

    @Sleepwalker.1398 said:

    @gousgou.5438 said:

    @Sleepwalker.1398 said:

    @gousgou.5438 said:

    @Sleepwalker.1398 said:

    See a someone who stealths alot coming to u, dude can you wait..i need to quickly buy some target painter.
    If that fails.....dude there is a sentry up, can you follow me there and fight.
    Well if that fails also....then, dude can you wait abit, i just took this tower and need to upgrade it and put watchtower tactic. can you come fight me after that?

    It is seriously your mistake for not packing target painters if you play WvW.

    Yeah it takes 2 slots from you bags but brainless aoe 50ppl trains visit merchants often enough to empty your bags.

    My comment was a joke but here's the thing.
    I hope you know how painter and traps work.
    You can only set 1 at a time and it costs supply and thief can see you placing it with the animation it does.
    2nd, if you see red circle or him stealthing and you not fast enough, throwing the painter is a waste.
    3rd, thief may pick on a 50 man tail, but he'll surely be dumb to go take on a zerg head on.

    They need to have a small field to allow counterplay. If the thief is fast enough they should get rewarded for playing around the trap. From my experience most thieves zone in for the kill and step right on it, allowing me to turn the tables.

    The cost is the only problem, I believe they should drastically lower it (like 1 resource cost) or remove it altogether.

    The painters can seriously hamper stealth play, apart from the cost the only thing I want to see is a set of quickslots so you can use items without having the inventory open. That would be a real QoL addition to the game!

    As for the zerg part I seriously believe that it is braindead-follow the crowd gameplay (and I say that to stress the way more relaxed than solo or small group roaming gameplay) that allows for way more flexibility regarding resupplying, selling trash and having backups from other people. People do not use consumables like the painters and disablers enough and it is a big mistake!

    If for example you play against a double rifle Deadeye, he will not walk up to you when it is much safer to just press rifle 2 from distance and dodge for days cos the damage from rifle 2 is so rewarding.

    How do I dodge for days on a Rifle DE? That damage from rifle 2 isn't rewarding, it's just the most frugal and so about the only option.

    Pretty simple really, Signet of Agility, Energy sigil and endurance regen food.
    I used to play this, very rewarding but i got sick of it.
    Plus you can make a condi immob build too with rifle :)

    Seems dumb to give up three good slots like that to be wasteful with dodges.

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL] & [SD]

  • DemonSeed.3528DemonSeed.3528 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @kash.9213 said:
    Seems dumb to give up three good slots like that to be wasteful with dodges.

    I wouldn't waste time using acro line either with all that.

  • diomache.9246diomache.9246 Member ✭✭✭

    @Caedmon.6798 said:
    Its fun how people nag about stealth while we have groups with a near permanent reflect + projectile destroy uptime and still pretend wvw is an 1on1 mode. People that get picked out of that blob,Should get picked out of that blob because youre simply,not good enough. You casuals have enough carry mechanics already.

    It's fun how some people always throw completely unrelated statements into discussions. Make a thread about that if it bothers your skilled zerg gameplay so much.

    Με χίλια ονόματα, μία χάρη, ακρίτας ειτ’ αρματολός, αντάρτης, κλέφτης, παλικάρι; πάντα ειν’ ο ίδιος ο λαός.

  • Caedmon.6798Caedmon.6798 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 20, 2020

    @diomache.9246 said:

    @Caedmon.6798 said:
    Its fun how people nag about stealth while we have groups with a near permanent reflect + projectile destroy uptime and still pretend wvw is an 1on1 mode. People that get picked out of that blob,Should get picked out of that blob because youre simply,not good enough. You casuals have enough carry mechanics already.

    It's fun how some people always throw completely unrelated statements into discussions. Make a thread about that if it bothers your skilled zerg gameplay so much.

    It's completely on topic,its not my fault youre not getting it.

    Make a thread about what exactly ?

  • As someone who mains thief, and thoroughly enjoys it. I think removing the mechanic entirely would be a terrible awful idea. People have issues with rogues in every other MMO, it's not a matter of it being broken. Even if it was fairly implemented people would still complain they were either outsmarted or lost to it. However, a nerf to make it more competitive with the other classes while not removing the entire advantage thieves have? I'd be more than okay with that. I don't think this is just a two option issue like many people are making it out to be. I'm very surprised people are complaining about thief among all classes to complain about, however. Thief has a very high skill ceiling last time I checked, and it's not as much of a cakewalk in any pvp as many other classes are. You're more likely to play against a bad thief than a good one.