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  • @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    messing with ooc smoke fields or max stealth duration doesn't fix the actual problem while at the same time it messes up organized play. how about this: you enter stealth and any skill used outside the smoke field (or shadow refuge) reveals you (1 sec grace period), entering within 130 range of enemy reveals you (change teef melee stealth attacks to 240 range dashes), delete DE reveal removal, up revealed duration to 6 sec (lol 3 sec is practically non existent, who needs to stealth that often anyway except for spammers/ griefers?), and finally get rid of watchtower/ sentry mark.

    No, actually that does fix the problem. The problem being long out of combat stealth. What you suggest on the other hand does indeed not fix the problem, and instead adds more problems. Youre making the already weak in-combat stealth even weaker, while leaving the overperforming out of combat stealth untouched.

    if they're ooc then how are they a problem, since they aren't interacting with any players? its when they enter combat that the problem arises. ooc stealth engages are strong and imo should remain so, and having 3 sec and up grace periods in combat are strong and shouldn't remain so. in combat stealth isn't weak, you're trippin and everyone knows it. anyways unless you limit ooc stealth to useless levels for not just the roamer but the group that stealth engages, it won't change anything. i think you miss the issue in its entirety, the thread is all about stealth being too strong in combat. if you don't agree then fine we won't really be able to convince each other of anything. what about revealed duration, should it be increased?

    Te lazla otstara.
    fingers crossed meta ~

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 22, 2020

    @Burnfall.9573 said:

    @Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:
    Somedays I miss my old ghost trapper teef build. To be able to kill groups of people and never show myself once was troll-tastic. I even got reported many times due to people think I was "hacking" xD

    It was OP for 1 reason....it could kill you and you would never see them the whole encounter.

    +1 correct

    But it's no longer a thing, so how is this relevant in any way here? :D

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Handin.4032 said:
    There are really 2 big things which make stealth in gw2 much more OP than many other MMOs.

    1: You do not drop stealth if you attack, and MISS - or if your attack does not deal direct damage (E.g. Caltrops do not drop stealth). So, even if you have a player which dodges your first attack, you can still attack while stealthed. In every other MMO I've played, the moment you attack you drop stealth, regardless if it hits or miss and if it is an attack skill (versus a heal or buff).
    2: You do not drop stealth when you take damage (or show any visual markers). This again means that you can attack, disengage and even if they hit you with a big burst, it may likely not drop you out of combat, allowing you to disengage and heal.

    Both of these result in stealth being low risk but very high payout. Whether you are single thief roaming, or an entire Zerg stealthing. In fact, big groups using stealth is a bit more of the issue - even if you see them stealth, and can apply some burst, without a painter trap or similar, it will not reveal them. They can even stack stealthed and heal (which does not drop steal) through a burst if an opposing group has an idea where they are. Some of the videos posted here shows just this happening: a thief applying an opening burst while in stealth, missing, and still remaining in stealth - even if they take some damage in return. Most games, having stealth invokes a trade off (e.g. slower movement, having to risk dropping it if you take damage or miss) with the huge bonus of having the 1st move in an engagement, and a way to disengage. In GW2, you don't have any of those tradeoffs, but still the substantial bonus. Painters do counter, but they're on a much longer cool down, a somewhat small AoE (or for thrown, a big animation) and take supply - they are not a good viable counter. Pulse detection was a decent counter, then it got shunted to a POS gadget (gadgets are a whole other rant...).

    tl;dr: Stealth doesn't need to be removed. They just need to modify it so it involves more risk/tradeoffs. There are ways to do this without killing Thief, or Zerg play (e.g. drop stealth if you miss an attack, or show footprints if you take damage).

    The risks are there, you're trying to oversell your point. There is a timer before another stealth attack if you miss and you can take damage while in stealth. The window of stealth attacks is too long and stealth is too sturdy in close proximity. This isn't every other MMO.

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL] & [SD]

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 22, 2020

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    messing with ooc smoke fields or max stealth duration doesn't fix the actual problem while at the same time it messes up organized play. how about this: you enter stealth and any skill used outside the smoke field (or shadow refuge) reveals you (1 sec grace period), entering within 130 range of enemy reveals you (change teef melee stealth attacks to 240 range dashes), delete DE reveal removal, up revealed duration to 6 sec (lol 3 sec is practically non existent, who needs to stealth that often anyway except for spammers/ griefers?), and finally get rid of watchtower/ sentry mark.

    No, actually that does fix the problem. The problem being long out of combat stealth. What you suggest on the other hand does indeed not fix the problem, and instead adds more problems. Youre making the already weak in-combat stealth even weaker, while leaving the overperforming out of combat stealth untouched.

    if they're ooc then how are they a problem, since they aren't interacting with any players? its when they enter combat that the problem arises.

    ooc meaning long duration stealth where the opponent doesn't know he needs to play around anything, because he doesn't even know there's anything approaching? Stacking stealth is ooc, the interaction with the player comes after that, but it's still about ooc stealth.
    In other words: "I GOT KILLED OUT OF NOWHERE" complaint threads.

    @Handin.4032 said:
    There are really 2 big things which make stealth in gw2 much more OP than many other MMOs.

    1: You do not drop stealth if you attack, and MISS - or if your attack does not deal direct damage (E.g. Caltrops do not drop stealth). So, even if you have a player which dodges your first attack, you can still attack while stealthed. In every other MMO I've played, the moment you attack you drop stealth, regardless if it hits or miss and if it is an attack skill (versus a heal or buff).

    Losing stealth on miss would be ok I think -not revealing the player on miss is removing some form of counterplay from the opponent and doesn't punish the stealthed player for his mistakes/misplays.

    2: You do not drop stealth when you take damage (or show any visual markers). This again means that you can attack, disengage and even if they hit you with a big burst, it may likely not drop you out of combat, allowing you to disengage and heal.

    But this one I can't really agree with, I think that considering the amount and range/radius of aoe spam that's available in gw2, this would render stealth barely usable.

  • Bigpapasmurf.5623Bigpapasmurf.5623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Burnfall.9573 said:

    @Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:
    Somedays I miss my old ghost trapper teef build. To be able to kill groups of people and never show myself once was troll-tastic. I even got reported many times due to people think I was "hacking" xD

    It was OP for 1 reason....it could kill you and you would never see them the whole encounter.

    +1 correct

    But it's no longer a thing, so how is this relevant in any way here? :D

    Someone brought it up, thus the relevancy :)

    Red = Dead...or someone runs away. Either way it's gone.
    twitch.tv/TRMC
    Lover of Jumping puzzles, Squirrels, WvW, and Taimi
    CLOK Commander and all around nice bro

  • Handin.4032Handin.4032 Member ✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    These are only relevant for in-combat stealth. Which, mind you, is already weak. The problem with stealth is out of combat stealth, and thats despite the fact that GW2s out of combat stealth is already weaker than in other MMOs (where you can usually just press one button for permanent stealth).

    As you said said, there is no button for permanent stealth, so the difference between in-combat stealth and out of combat stealth isn't the same. Thieves, typically, do not sit waiting in stealth for minutes and minutes at a time, and nor do raids. For groups, it is mostly used to engage and maybe disengage, so it is still 'active', not passive. Both of what I said are related to "out of combat" stealth. Take a fairly common scenario (at least in US WvW): a raid stacks and uses a stealth gyro + blast to stack stealth. Now, they don't do this to sit around for a long time passively, they do it just before engaging (so, while not 'in combat stealth', it is stealth FOR combat). Now, a raid could see that and put a bomb or AoE there - heck, even some nice CC! But the group remains stealthed. They could have a painter used against them (although that's fairly easy to spot since it has a huge animation...). This is why so many groups in NA seem to love using stealth - it has 0 draw back, other than needing to stack to blast stealth.

    While there is a timer if you miss an attack in stealth, you are STILL STEALTHED and thus still maintain the advantage, even if you horribly messed up. You may take damage, but you're invisible so you're not directly targetable - can just disengage...

    @Sobx.1758 said
    But this one I can't really agree with, I think that considering the amount and range/radius of aoe spam that's available in gw2, this would render stealth barely usable.

    Yes, I agree -I am not advocating that getting hit in stealth totally drops stealth, or put on reveal, unless there would be some high threshold. I mentioned visual markers, mostly so that you know your hit landed and where the person was - or if it was a condi something like a foot print (removed if condi is cleansed, which does not drop stealth). Compared to many other mechanics, stealth has far fewer viable counters than most others, especially given the advantages stealth gives. (I remember both in lotro and Archeage - where stealth was VERY OP - you could even see them if they got too close for too long, and your speed was reduced).

    While stealth is certainly OP, it almost always is in any game. It should have attention and maybe tweaks, but I wouldn't put it anywhere near a priority, more like a "meh...if there's every time...".

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 22, 2020

    @Handin.4032 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    These are only relevant for in-combat stealth. Which, mind you, is already weak. The problem with stealth is out of combat stealth, and thats despite the fact that GW2s out of combat stealth is already weaker than in other MMOs (where you can usually just press one button for permanent stealth).

    As you said said, there is no button for permanent stealth, so the difference between in-combat stealth and out of combat stealth isn't the same. Thieves, typically, do not sit waiting in stealth for minutes and minutes at a time, and nor do raids. For groups, it is mostly used to engage and maybe disengage, so it is still 'active', not passive. Both of what I said are related to "out of combat" stealth. Take a fairly common scenario (at least in US WvW): a raid stacks and uses a stealth gyro + blast to stack stealth. Now, they don't do this to sit around for a long time passively, they do it just before engaging (so, while not 'in combat stealth', it is stealth FOR combat). Now, a raid could see that and put a bomb or AoE there - heck, even some nice CC! But the group remains stealthed. They could have a painter used against them (although that's fairly easy to spot since it has a huge animation...). This is why so many groups in NA seem to love using stealth - it has 0 draw back, other than needing to stack to blast stealth.

    While there is a timer if you miss an attack in stealth, you are STILL STEALTHED and thus still maintain the advantage, even if you horribly messed up. You may take damage, but you're invisible so you're not directly targetable - can just disengage...

    @Sobx.1758 said
    But this one I can't really agree with, I think that considering the amount and range/radius of aoe spam that's available in gw2, this would render stealth barely usable.

    Yes, I agree -I am not advocating that getting hit in stealth totally drops stealth, or put on reveal, unless there would be some high threshold. I mentioned visual markers, mostly so that you know your hit landed and where the person was - or if it was a condi something like a foot print (removed if condi is cleansed, which does not drop stealth). Compared to many other mechanics, stealth has far fewer viable counters than most others, especially given the advantages stealth gives. (I remember both in lotro and Archeage - where stealth was VERY OP - you could even see them if they got too close for too long, and your speed was reduced).

    While stealth is certainly OP, it almost always is in any game. It should have attention and maybe tweaks, but I wouldn't put it anywhere near a priority, more like a "meh...if there's every time...".

    You'll know if your hit landed and in the general small area it hit. It's stealth, you're not supposed to track them through it, but if you want to, watch the ground when they stealth and you can mostly tell what direction they were going or thinking about depending the stealth skill. The best counter to stealth is letting them stealth because then you pretty much know the next play that will do any damage to you. You don't even have to wait for them to come out of stealth to kill them but if you want to that's a great predictable window to land control skills. Again, stealth attacks or their window of use need some changes to be under pressure and there needs to be more pressure on the stealth user for even thinking about lingering around in close proximity. Again, this isn't another MMO.

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL] & [SD]

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    messing with ooc smoke fields or max stealth duration doesn't fix the actual problem while at the same time it messes up organized play. how about this: you enter stealth and any skill used outside the smoke field (or shadow refuge) reveals you (1 sec grace period), entering within 130 range of enemy reveals you (change teef melee stealth attacks to 240 range dashes), delete DE reveal removal, up revealed duration to 6 sec (lol 3 sec is practically non existent, who needs to stealth that often anyway except for spammers/ griefers?), and finally get rid of watchtower/ sentry mark.

    No, actually that does fix the problem. The problem being long out of combat stealth. What you suggest on the other hand does indeed not fix the problem, and instead adds more problems. Youre making the already weak in-combat stealth even weaker, while leaving the overperforming out of combat stealth untouched.

    if they're ooc then how are they a problem, since they aren't interacting with any players? its when they enter combat that the problem arises. ooc stealth engages are strong and imo should remain so, and having 3 sec and up grace periods in combat are strong and shouldn't remain so. in combat stealth isn't weak, you're trippin and everyone knows it. anyways unless you limit ooc stealth to useless levels for not just the roamer but the group that stealth engages, it won't change anything. i think you miss the issue in its entirety, the thread is all about stealth being too strong in combat. if you don't agree then fine we won't really be able to convince each other of anything. what about revealed duration, should it be increased?

    Because they use stealth out of combat, and then engage out of stealth. That is the issue. Your supposed changes to fix that address nothing. In combat stealth is absolutely weak, and any good players knows that. Thats why they tend to avoid using it as much as possible. And no, it will. If you can only stay in stealth for 6 seconds, then you gotta time it real well out of combat, and the opponent has the opportunity to run the clock down through careful positioning and defensive usage. That in fact fixes the issue. If the thread is about stealth being too strong in combat, then the thread is simply wrong. There isnt anything useful to gain from that, its like having a thread about warrior rifle being too strong. And no, revealed duration obviously shouldnt be increased. Besides the fact that it nerfs regular in-combat stealth, which is again weak, its also a risk with 2 thief traits that could break things (essentially a build that enters and immediately exits stealth every X seconds to have those traits up).

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Handin.4032 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    These are only relevant for in-combat stealth. Which, mind you, is already weak. The problem with stealth is out of combat stealth, and thats despite the fact that GW2s out of combat stealth is already weaker than in other MMOs (where you can usually just press one button for permanent stealth).

    As you said said, there is no button for permanent stealth, so the difference between in-combat stealth and out of combat stealth isn't the same. Thieves, typically, do not sit waiting in stealth for minutes and minutes at a time, and nor do raids. For groups, it is mostly used to engage and maybe disengage, so it is still 'active', not passive. Both of what I said are related to "out of combat" stealth. Take a fairly common scenario (at least in US WvW): a raid stacks and uses a stealth gyro + blast to stack stealth. Now, they don't do this to sit around for a long time passively, they do it just before engaging (so, while not 'in combat stealth', it is stealth FOR combat). Now, a raid could see that and put a bomb or AoE there - heck, even some nice CC! But the group remains stealthed. They could have a painter used against them (although that's fairly easy to spot since it has a huge animation...). This is why so many groups in NA seem to love using stealth - it has 0 draw back, other than needing to stack to blast stealth.

    Actually, they do. Whether its in keeps to run down the timer, or when hunting people on the map, thieves do spend long periods of time in stealth. And yknow, just the ability to be able to press one button and stay in stealth out of combat would be something thieves would love to have. Its such a huge boon. As for your example, thats still easily fixed by having a max duration. They try to engage, you blow them up with some AoEs, their stealth runs out. Its a huge disadvantage.

    While there is a timer if you miss an attack in stealth, you are STILL STEALTHED and thus still maintain the advantage, even if you horribly messed up. You may take damage, but you're invisible so you're not directly targetable - can just disengage...

    And you can just disengage if youre not stealthed as well. Stealth is only an advantage when used to mask your approach or attack someone unaware of your existence. That is easily fixed, through a max cap. Any of the changes you propose dont actually change it at all. But they do destroy the already weak in-combat stealth completely. Theyre bad changes.

    @Sobx.1758 said
    But this one I can't really agree with, I think that considering the amount and range/radius of aoe spam that's available in gw2, this would render stealth barely usable.

    Yes, I agree -I am not advocating that getting hit in stealth totally drops stealth, or put on reveal, unless there would be some high threshold. I mentioned visual markers, mostly so that you know your hit landed and where the person was - or if it was a condi something like a foot print (removed if condi is cleansed, which does not drop stealth). Compared to many other mechanics, stealth has far fewer viable counters than most others, especially given the advantages stealth gives. (I remember both in lotro and Archeage - where stealth was VERY OP - you could even see them if they got too close for too long, and your speed was reduced).

    That is entirely unneccessary. Because you already can track people in stealth through AoEs and cleave. You already will know that your hit landed, and roughly where they were. Stealth has too many counters for how few advantages it gives. Its only use case where that isnt true is out of combat. But again, easily fixed, but not through the changes you propose (which do literally nothing to out of combat stealth).

    While stealth is certainly OP, it almost always is in any game. It should have attention and maybe tweaks, but I wouldn't put it anywhere near a priority, more like a "meh...if there's every time...".

    This is ironically not entirely true. Stealth is a mechanic that is either strong, or weak. Never inbetween. And quite often it lands on the weak side.

  • Question is how are they going stealth?

    Combo fields?

    Turn Friendly Fire ON

    ....Looks like you can't combo field anymore.

  • Helicity.3416Helicity.3416 Member ✭✭✭

    @Vlad Morbius.1759 said:

    @Helicity.3416 said:
    I feel like most people don't understand the marked and revealed mechanics.
    A lot of folks seem to think target painters and traps can be cleansed by Deadeye.

    This is not correct.

    The Deadeye can cleanse the reveal but will remain marked, and will thus be revealed again if they stealth for 3s+

    A target painter hit is more often than not a death sentence on DE.

    C'mon just how many times have you wandered into something a player takes 5 seconds to lay in front of you? Possibly going into a camp and one is there you don't see but in active roaming that is a useless mechanic nobody has the time to put down while being picked off from 1500 feet away lol. Fact is stealth and burst skills associated with it are OP and have been for a long time it is way overdue to be addressed. That said i doubt very much they actually care anymore and are only concerned with the next expack and the money that will bring in so people just need to get used to this cancer.

    I literally throw target painters on almost every stealth class I fight.
    It's even better when I do it FROM stealth.

    It's an L2P issue.

    If you don't want to drop a trap in a smart place and carry throwable "screw you stealth class" consumables on you...well, that's on you

  • @Helicity.3416 said: > I literally throw target painters on almost every stealth class I fight.
    It's even better when I do it FROM stealth.
    It's an L2P issue.
    If you don't want to drop a trap in a smart place and carry throwable "screw you stealth class" consumables on you...well, that's on you

    Right so every 2nd time you throw one down you have to run back and pick up supplies, that's a completely effective way to fight. Also name on other class you have to carry supplies to toss at before engaging, what a joke. This needs to get fixed period, it is a broken mechanic and has jack to do with learn to fight and everything to do with badly balanced and scaled skills.

  • Helicity.3416Helicity.3416 Member ✭✭✭

    @Vlad Morbius.1759 said:

    @Helicity.3416 said: > I literally throw target painters on almost every stealth class I fight.
    It's even better when I do it FROM stealth.
    It's an L2P issue.
    If you don't want to drop a trap in a smart place and carry throwable "screw you stealth class" consumables on you...well, that's on you

    Right so every 2nd time you throw one down you have to run back and pick up supplies, that's a completely effective way to fight. Also name on other class you have to carry supplies to toss at before engaging, what a joke. This needs to get fixed period, it is a broken mechanic and has jack to do with learn to fight and everything to do with badly balanced and scaled skills.

    Ok, then don't use the incredibly effective tools put in the game specifically for this purpose and keep crying on the forums because anet isn't handing you your free kills.

    Meanwhile I'll keep killing the deadeyes, mesmers, rangers, dragon hunters and engis who rely too much on stealth.

  • Jilora.9524Jilora.9524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Helicity.3416 said:

    @Vlad Morbius.1759 said:

    @Helicity.3416 said: > I literally throw target painters on almost every stealth class I fight.
    It's even better when I do it FROM stealth.
    It's an L2P issue.
    If you don't want to drop a trap in a smart place and carry throwable "screw you stealth class" consumables on you...well, that's on you

    Right so every 2nd time you throw one down you have to run back and pick up supplies, that's a completely effective way to fight. Also name on other class you have to carry supplies to toss at before engaging, what a joke. This needs to get fixed period, it is a broken mechanic and has jack to do with learn to fight and everything to do with badly balanced and scaled skills.

    Ok, then don't use the incredibly effective tools put in the game specifically for this purpose and keep crying on the forums because anet isn't handing you your free kills.

    Meanwhile I'll keep killing the deadeyes, mesmers, rangers, dragon hunters and engis who rely too much on stealth.

    What class you using to kill these so easily

    WvW band wagoners ruin the game mode just like Karen's ruin these forums.

  • ilMasa.2546ilMasa.2546 Member ✭✭✭

    @Helicity.3416 said:

    @Vlad Morbius.1759 said:

    @Helicity.3416 said: > I literally throw target painters on almost every stealth class I fight.
    It's even better when I do it FROM stealth.
    It's an L2P issue.
    If you don't want to drop a trap in a smart place and carry throwable "screw you stealth class" consumables on you...well, that's on you

    Right so every 2nd time you throw one down you have to run back and pick up supplies, that's a completely effective way to fight. Also name on other class you have to carry supplies to toss at before engaging, what a joke. This needs to get fixed period, it is a broken mechanic and has jack to do with learn to fight and everything to do with badly balanced and scaled skills.

    Ok, then don't use the incredibly effective tools put in the game specifically for this purpose and keep crying on the forums because anet isn't handing you your free kills.

    Meanwhile I'll keep killing the deadeyes, mesmers, rangers, dragon hunters and engis who rely too much on stealth.

    M8 the problem is not us wanting free kills on thieves,we are questioning the incredibly effective freedom of kill they have with no trade off kek

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 24, 2020

    @Helicity.3416 said:
    I feel like most people don't understand the marked and revealed mechanics.
    A lot of folks seem to think target painters and traps can be cleansed by Deadeye.

    This is not correct.

    The Deadeye can cleanse the reveal but will remain marked, and will thus be revealed again if they stealth for 3s+

    A target painter hit is more often than not a death sentence on DE.

    But would u will render with everything in time for the enemy or the desync between the action will look it like o were reviealed and insta stealth 1 sec later...?

    The problem might noe be in your end but its on your target perception of the combat and how stuff renders in this game.

    IMO the issue is not the thief, but the stalth mechanics and how the gaame itlsef treats it, and i feel that is what needs to be look at, not asking for nerd into a class where the issue m8 be in the netcode.

    But in terms of steralth balance, the stleaalth blast need to be removed :)

    Note my brother main was a thief when he played this game, as we were dueling, stealth often wasnt the same visually me and for him, i usally complanin how reveil was borked up where i sould see just aa fraaction of its unstealthed momentum.

    Slayers [XD] NSP Guild
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  • Caedmon.6798Caedmon.6798 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 24, 2020

    There are SO many counters around espec in wvw,this is strictly a l2p issue. Dont pretend you run solo neither. Theres also a thing as being outplayed,accept it and move on.

  • Helicity.3416Helicity.3416 Member ✭✭✭

    @Jilora.9524 said:

    @Helicity.3416 said:

    @Vlad Morbius.1759 said:

    @Helicity.3416 said: > I literally throw target painters on almost every stealth class I fight.
    It's even better when I do it FROM stealth.
    It's an L2P issue.
    If you don't want to drop a trap in a smart place and carry throwable "screw you stealth class" consumables on you...well, that's on you

    Right so every 2nd time you throw one down you have to run back and pick up supplies, that's a completely effective way to fight. Also name on other class you have to carry supplies to toss at before engaging, what a joke. This needs to get fixed period, it is a broken mechanic and has jack to do with learn to fight and everything to do with badly balanced and scaled skills.

    Ok, then don't use the incredibly effective tools put in the game specifically for this purpose and keep crying on the forums because anet isn't handing you your free kills.

    Meanwhile I'll keep killing the deadeyes, mesmers, rangers, dragon hunters and engis who rely too much on stealth.

    What class you using to kill these so easily

    I play every class, it's easiest with fresh air ele or your own Deadeye and (situationally) hardest with Condi builds (if they run cleanse in stealth or are fast with rifle 4)

  • Helicity.3416Helicity.3416 Member ✭✭✭

    @Aeolus.3615 said:

    @Helicity.3416 said:
    I feel like most people don't understand the marked and revealed mechanics.
    A lot of folks seem to think target painters and traps can be cleansed by Deadeye.

    This is not correct.

    The Deadeye can cleanse the reveal but will remain marked, and will thus be revealed again if they stealth for 3s+

    A target painter hit is more often than not a death sentence on DE.

    But would u will render with everything in time for the enemy or the desync between the action will look it like o were reviealed and insta stealth 1 sec later...?

    The problem might noe be in your end but its on your target perception of the combat and how stuff renders in this game.

    IMO the issue is not the thief, but the stalth mechanics and how the gaame itlsef treats it, and i feel that is what needs to be look at, not asking for nerd into a class where the issue m8 be in the netcode.

    But in terms of steralth balance, the stleaalth blast need to be removed :)

    Note my brother main was a thief when he played this game, as we were dueling, stealth often wasnt the same visually me and for him, i usally complanin how reveil was borked up where i sould see just aa fraaction of its unstealthed momentum.

    I tried to read your post, but your writing makes me feel like I'm having an aneurysm.

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 28, 2020

    @Helicity.3416 said:

    @Aeolus.3615 said:

    @Helicity.3416 said:
    I feel like most people don't understand the marked and revealed mechanics.
    A lot of folks seem to think target painters and traps can be cleansed by Deadeye.

    This is not correct.

    The Deadeye can cleanse the reveal but will remain marked, and will thus be revealed again if they stealth for 3s+

    A target painter hit is more often than not a death sentence on DE.

    But would u will render with everything in time for the enemy or the desync between the action will look it like o were reviealed and insta stealth 1 sec later...?

    The problem might noe be in your end but its on your target perception of the combat and how stuff renders in this game.

    IMO the issue is not the thief, but the stalth mechanics and how the gaame itlsef treats it, and i feel that is what needs to be look at, not asking for nerd into a class where the issue m8 be in the netcode.

    But in terms of steralth balance, the stleaalth blast need to be removed :)

    Note my brother main was a thief when he played this game, as we were dueling, stealth often wasnt the same visually me and for him, i usally complanin how reveil was borked up where i sould see just aa fraaction of its unstealthed momentum.

    I tried to read your post, but your writing makes me feel like I'm having an aneurysm.

    Round 2 then :) sometimes even i cant read i wrote xD in "Engrish".

    The problem with stealth its a netcode issue or how actually stealth works overall in the game, the timing on stealth from the perspective of the atacker and the target is not the same, usually theres a delay on the unstealth/reveal process(some sorta delay or desync) on the 1st hit while the stealth aplyance is somethwat synced. wich visually creates the short duration reveal for the client of the player being atacked.

    When you use stealth and apear atacking the target and stealth again you will render your toon skills with normal timings and see everythign normal, but in the target perspective the time when you do the process of " stealth-> 1st atack -> go unstealthed/revealed -> 2nd and 3rd atack ->stealth again" wont be the same order on the stealth/unstealth effect on enemy , it will be arround at the 2nd or 3rd hit that players will probably see your toon unstealthing right befgore u go stealth again.

    Gw2 stealth always worked like this , while dueling friends and my brother thief i always complained how short the duration of its thief reveal after some hits was, the more u try to go stealth after a unstealth/reveal that desync kinda gets borker and worse for the target being atacked.

    A large group using redudant stealth aplyances and quickess will mostly bork up that effect, most times the enemy group wont even know what hitted them, allmost all skills will be casted before they render, enemy will take even damage before red circles apear xD, the bigger the blob is the worse it gets.,

    And sorry if my english was really that bad (it was bad even for me to read it ):pensive: i hope this was is easier to decifre.

    Slayers [XD] NSP Guild
    Yao Chen Herald/Ventari
    Ying Wuxian Renegade/Demon

  • @SteepledHat.1345 said:
    Funny, with that garbage marked debuff covering most of the map in T1 it feels like you can't stealth anywhere

    I always get a lol out of this complaint when I see it. If anything Thieves should count it as a blessing.

    Fighting anyone near a tower is never a good idea, especially if it has Watch Tower. It doesn't matter if you have access to Stealth or not. They can retreat to the tower and put you in a bad position and you're now a beacon on the map that pugs will be coming for. Before Marked existed Thieves could ignore this danger with their Stealth and mobility effectively allowing them to engage and disengage where ever they please. While that isn't a huge problem itself, it does create a frustrating scenario where the Thief cannot be punished for over extending. No other class before or after the addition of Marked would want to stray too close to a tower for the reasons I've outlined; their opponent could escape inside the objective leaving them in a bad position, and scouting would likely have them outnumbered soon after.

    Some towers have a frustratingly large area that Watch Tower covers, but that's a problem with Watch Tower itself that still needs rebalancing. Something many people agree on. Sentry's on the other hand are more of a problem in regard to Stealth because to remove the Marked you need to capture the Sentry. With that said, Marked is more than just a Reveal, it marks you on the mini map. No matter what you're playing you will be aware of your vulnerability and will need to evaluate the risk of approaching that Sentry knowing you will be temporarily visible on the map. So this isn't a problem exclusive to Thieves.

    There is plenty of room to fight and roam about without being Marked. EBG maybe less so, but Thieves have the virtue of being able to choose when and where fights happen more so than any other class thanks to their mobility. Choose the right place to fight, know where to take that fight, and be aware of areas that will Mark you if you're choosing to risk fighting in those areas.

    If I'm roaming on Necro I'm going to stop at the edge of Watch Tower range the same way I would with Thief but for different reasons. With Necro, I cannot escape if more people show up so I cannot afford to make myself visible on the map. With Thief, my defensive and offensive resource, Stealth, will be greatly impacted and will mean I need to be aggressive, so the risk probably isn't worth it.

    [YWY] Weeping Valley //
    My Youtube: Coconut Racecar
    Necromancer | Maguuma | Diamond Legend

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 28, 2020

    @SpellOfIniquity.1780 said:

    @SteepledHat.1345 said:
    Funny, with that garbage marked debuff covering most of the map in T1 it feels like you can't stealth anywhere

    I always get a lol out of this complaint when I see it. If anything Thieves should count it as a blessing.

    Fighting anyone near a tower is never a good idea, especially if it has Watch Tower. It doesn't matter if you have access to Stealth or not. They can retreat to the tower and put you in a bad position and you're now a beacon on the map that pugs will be coming for. Before Marked existed Thieves could ignore this danger with their Stealth and mobility effectively allowing them to engage and disengage where ever they please. While that isn't a huge problem itself, it does create a frustrating scenario where the Thief cannot be punished for over extending. No other class before or after the addition of Marked would want to stray too close to a tower for the reasons I've outlined; their opponent could escape inside the objective leaving them in a bad position, and scouting would likely have them outnumbered soon after.

    Some towers have a frustratingly large area that Watch Tower covers, but that's a problem with Watch Tower itself that still needs rebalancing. Something many people agree on. Sentry's on the other hand are more of a problem in regard to Stealth because to remove the Marked you need to capture the Sentry. With that said, Marked is more than just a Reveal, it marks you on the mini map. No matter what you're playing you will be aware of your vulnerability and will need to evaluate the risk of approaching that Sentry knowing you will be temporarily visible on the map. So this isn't a problem exclusive to Thieves.

    There is plenty of room to fight and roam about without being Marked. EBG maybe less so, but Thieves have the virtue of being able to choose when and where fights happen more so than any other class thanks to their mobility. Choose the right place to fight, know where to take that fight, and be aware of areas that will Mark you if you're choosing to risk fighting in those areas.

    If I'm roaming on Necro I'm going to stop at the edge of Watch Tower range the same way I would with Thief but for different reasons. With Necro, I cannot escape if more people show up so I cannot afford to make myself visible on the map. With Thief, my defensive and offensive resource, Stealth, will be greatly impacted and will mean I need to be aggressive, so the risk probably isn't worth it.

    What do you mean the thief can't be punished for overextending? Build to punish them, in home territory with buffs by the way. Instead you suggest it's a good thing when someone can't use something or go to a part of the map. Got any more ideas on how we can not play parts of the game or am I reading that wrong (happy to admit if I did).

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL] & [SD]

  • SpellOfIniquity.1780SpellOfIniquity.1780 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 28, 2020

    @kash.9213 said:

    @SpellOfIniquity.1780 said:

    @SteepledHat.1345 said:
    Funny, with that garbage marked debuff covering most of the map in T1 it feels like you can't stealth anywhere

    I always get a lol out of this complaint when I see it. If anything Thieves should count it as a blessing.

    Fighting anyone near a tower is never a good idea, especially if it has Watch Tower. It doesn't matter if you have access to Stealth or not. They can retreat to the tower and put you in a bad position and you're now a beacon on the map that pugs will be coming for. Before Marked existed Thieves could ignore this danger with their Stealth and mobility effectively allowing them to engage and disengage where ever they please. While that isn't a huge problem itself, it does create a frustrating scenario where the Thief cannot be punished for over extending. No other class before or after the addition of Marked would want to stray too close to a tower for the reasons I've outlined; their opponent could escape inside the objective leaving them in a bad position, and scouting would likely have them outnumbered soon after.

    Some towers have a frustratingly large area that Watch Tower covers, but that's a problem with Watch Tower itself that still needs rebalancing. Something many people agree on. Sentry's on the other hand are more of a problem in regard to Stealth because to remove the Marked you need to capture the Sentry. With that said, Marked is more than just a Reveal, it marks you on the mini map. No matter what you're playing you will be aware of your vulnerability and will need to evaluate the risk of approaching that Sentry knowing you will be temporarily visible on the map. So this isn't a problem exclusive to Thieves.

    There is plenty of room to fight and roam about without being Marked. EBG maybe less so, but Thieves have the virtue of being able to choose when and where fights happen more so than any other class thanks to their mobility. Choose the right place to fight, know where to take that fight, and be aware of areas that will Mark you if you're choosing to risk fighting in those areas.

    If I'm roaming on Necro I'm going to stop at the edge of Watch Tower range the same way I would with Thief but for different reasons. With Necro, I cannot escape if more people show up so I cannot afford to make myself visible on the map. With Thief, my defensive and offensive resource, Stealth, will be greatly impacted and will mean I need to be aggressive, so the risk probably isn't worth it.

    What do you mean the thief can't be punished for overextending? Build to punish them, in your own territory with buffs by the way, or don't complain. Instead you suggest it's a good thing when someone can't use something or go to a part of the map. Got any more ideas on how we can not play parts of the game?

    I think you misinterpret what I'm saying, because I'm not complaining at all. Personally I'm unfazed by Thieves and Stealth because I know how to deal with it and I've accepted it as a part of the game. I was stating facts and ways in which the Marked debuff affects other classes, though differently.

    Maybe I should have worded it differently, but it would still be "it is very difficult to punish a Thief for over extending" instead of "can't be". Have you not had the displeasure of trying to kill the [CUTE] double Shortbow Thief that taps keep waypoints for hours? He doesn't even play bunker and yet he gets the entire map tilted because he's practically impossible to catch. Double Energy Sigil and Quick Pockets can do that just like Shadow Arts and Deadeye could near infinitely troll inside a recently flipped keep without Marked debuff. Which would be a problem since it has access to portals now (great job on that addition by the way, ANet).

    EDIT
    Also I played Thief for a good while not long ago with Deadly Arts/Critical Strikes/Trickery. I did a lot of floating around in EBG as I usually do and I don't think I can recall a single time Marked was an issue in any way that it wouldn't be a problem on another class. I also never experienced any fights where Marked got me killed because unlike seemingly everyone who complains about this issue I know I have the mobility to disengage if it's causing me problems. Imagine using mobility on the class with the highest mobility.

    [YWY] Weeping Valley //
    My Youtube: Coconut Racecar
    Necromancer | Maguuma | Diamond Legend

  • stealth destroys any guild fighting. Both groups try to outstealth each other and the side which pulls it off, wins. This results in up to 10min of both groups moving around, retreating whenever the other side stealths up.

    This is beyond stupid.

    Anet, remove stealth from wvw. It is toxic, it makes the game more boring. It has no reason to exist and no valid defense to keep it.

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 28, 2020

    @SpellOfIniquity.1780 said:

    @kash.9213 said:

    @SpellOfIniquity.1780 said:

    @SteepledHat.1345 said:
    Funny, with that garbage marked debuff covering most of the map in T1 it feels like you can't stealth anywhere

    I always get a lol out of this complaint when I see it. If anything Thieves should count it as a blessing.

    Fighting anyone near a tower is never a good idea, especially if it has Watch Tower. It doesn't matter if you have access to Stealth or not. They can retreat to the tower and put you in a bad position and you're now a beacon on the map that pugs will be coming for. Before Marked existed Thieves could ignore this danger with their Stealth and mobility effectively allowing them to engage and disengage where ever they please. While that isn't a huge problem itself, it does create a frustrating scenario where the Thief cannot be punished for over extending. No other class before or after the addition of Marked would want to stray too close to a tower for the reasons I've outlined; their opponent could escape inside the objective leaving them in a bad position, and scouting would likely have them outnumbered soon after.

    Some towers have a frustratingly large area that Watch Tower covers, but that's a problem with Watch Tower itself that still needs rebalancing. Something many people agree on. Sentry's on the other hand are more of a problem in regard to Stealth because to remove the Marked you need to capture the Sentry. With that said, Marked is more than just a Reveal, it marks you on the mini map. No matter what you're playing you will be aware of your vulnerability and will need to evaluate the risk of approaching that Sentry knowing you will be temporarily visible on the map. So this isn't a problem exclusive to Thieves.

    There is plenty of room to fight and roam about without being Marked. EBG maybe less so, but Thieves have the virtue of being able to choose when and where fights happen more so than any other class thanks to their mobility. Choose the right place to fight, know where to take that fight, and be aware of areas that will Mark you if you're choosing to risk fighting in those areas.

    If I'm roaming on Necro I'm going to stop at the edge of Watch Tower range the same way I would with Thief but for different reasons. With Necro, I cannot escape if more people show up so I cannot afford to make myself visible on the map. With Thief, my defensive and offensive resource, Stealth, will be greatly impacted and will mean I need to be aggressive, so the risk probably isn't worth it.

    What do you mean the thief can't be punished for overextending? Build to punish them, in your own territory with buffs by the way, or don't complain. Instead you suggest it's a good thing when someone can't use something or go to a part of the map. Got any more ideas on how we can not play parts of the game?

    I think you misinterpret what I'm saying, because I'm not complaining at all. Personally I'm unfazed by Thieves and Stealth because I know how to deal with it and I've accepted it as a part of the game. I was stating facts and ways in which the Marked debuff affects other classes, though differently.

    Maybe I should have worded it differently, but it would still be "it is very difficult to punish a Thief for over extending" instead of "can't be". Have you not had the displeasure of trying to kill the [CUTE] double Shortbow Thief that taps keep waypoints for hours? He doesn't even play bunker and yet he gets the entire map tilted because he's practically impossible to catch. Double Energy Sigil and Quick Pockets can do that just like Shadow Arts and Deadeye could near infinitely troll inside a recently flipped keep without Marked debuff. Which would be a problem since it has access to portals now (great job on that addition by the way, ANet).

    EDIT
    Also I played Thief for a good while not long ago with Deadly Arts/Critical Strikes/Trickery. I did a lot of floating around in EBG as I usually do and I don't think I can recall a single time Marked was an issue in any way that it wouldn't be a problem on another class. I also never experienced any fights where Marked got me killed because unlike seemingly everyone who complains about this issue I know I have the mobility to disengage if it's causing me problems. Imagine using mobility on the class with the highest mobility.

    Ya I agree, I don't really even consider marked areas, but mostly due to not building around stealth I guess. The wording of "cannot be punished" isn't vague which is why that stood out. That double shortbow thief sounds like that Pink thief who use to troll keeps, they can read the room and know when no one who can do anything will stick around. Once they read the kind of body language that tells them more than afk pip harvesters are going to bother they're either dead fast or they bounce. Most people don't build to chase kids around a keep and they know that.

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL] & [SD]

  • Burnfall.9573Burnfall.9573 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 28, 2020

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    stealth destroys any guild fighting. Both groups try to outstealth each other and the side which pulls it off, wins. This results in up to 10min of both groups moving around, retreating whenever the other side stealths up.

    This is beyond stupid.

    Anet, remove stealth from wvw. It is toxic, it makes the game more boring. It has no reason to exist and no valid defense to keep it.

    +10

    'Stealth and why it reduces depth and skill'

    (posted 2013)
    https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Stealth-and-why-it-reduces-depth-and-skill

    'GW did pretty well without invis, no clue which *...' was thinking this might be a good idea.'

    'I main a thief and hate stealth, it’s a lame mechanic that should have stayed in WoW and other MMO’s. What made the assassin so awesome in GW1 was it didn’t use stealth but shadow steps with combo attacks.'

    'It is safe to say that a massive portion of GW2’s player base has left this game; because they are tired of stealth classes.'

    Guild Wars 1-Assassin Profession

    'The gw1Assassin did it right. Shadow stepping gave them huge mobility, they had great control and really powerful offensive/defensive abilities that took finesse and skill to master. Just look at those skills.

    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/List_of_assassin_skills

    They still had the power to not be targeted and escape or close faster than any other class and all without the invisibility gimmick........'

    'Guild Wars 1-Assassin Pvp'

    'Situations that are present are there because you allow and tolerate them to continue'

  • Caedmon.6798Caedmon.6798 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Burnfall.9573 said:

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    stealth destroys any guild fighting. Both groups try to outstealth each other and the side which pulls it off, wins. This results in up to 10min of both groups moving around, retreating whenever the other side stealths up.

    This is beyond stupid.

    Anet, remove stealth from wvw. It is toxic, it makes the game more boring. It has no reason to exist and no valid defense to keep it.

    +10

    'Stealth and why it reduces depth and skill'

    (posted 2013)
    https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Stealth-and-why-it-reduces-depth-and-skill

    'GW did pretty well without invis, no clue which *...' was thinking this might be a good idea.'

    'I main a thief and hate stealth, it’s a lame mechanic that should have stayed in WoW and other MMO’s. What made the assassin so awesome in GW1 was it didn’t use stealth but shadow steps with combo attacks.'

    'It is safe to say that a massive portion of GW2’s player base has left this game; because they are tired of stealth classes.'

    Guild Wars 1-Assassin Profession

    'The gw1Assassin did it right. Shadow stepping gave them huge mobility, they had great control and really powerful offensive/defensive abilities that took finesse and skill to master. Just look at those skills.

    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/List_of_assassin_skills

    They still had the power to not be targeted and escape or close faster than any other class and all without the invisibility gimmick........'

    'Guild Wars 1-Assassin Pvp'

    Did you record that with your nokia 3310 ?

  • Kylden Ar.3724Kylden Ar.3724 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    stealth destroys any guild fighting. Both groups try to outstealth each other and the side which pulls it off, wins. This results in up to 10min of both groups moving around, retreating whenever the other side stealths up.

    This is beyond stupid.

    Anet, remove stealth from wvw. It is toxic, it makes the game more boring. It has no reason to exist and no valid defense to keep it.

    You've been asking this for 7 years. Aren't you bored yet?

    How many times we gotta tell you GRIND IS NOT CONTENT there ANet?

    Leader of Tyrian Adventure Corp [TACO], member of [RaW][TACO][Owls][HELL] Alliance, Kaineng.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kylden Ar.3724 said:

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    stealth destroys any guild fighting. Both groups try to outstealth each other and the side which pulls it off, wins. This results in up to 10min of both groups moving around, retreating whenever the other side stealths up.

    This is beyond stupid.

    Anet, remove stealth from wvw. It is toxic, it makes the game more boring. It has no reason to exist and no valid defense to keep it.

    You've been asking this for 7 years. Aren't you bored yet?

    100% this^ seriously except that even though u don't like it others do and it's always been part of the game and isnt going to see any significant changes after 8+ years, seriously.

  • @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Kylden Ar.3724 said:

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    stealth destroys any guild fighting. Both groups try to outstealth each other and the side which pulls it off, wins. This results in up to 10min of both groups moving around, retreating whenever the other side stealths up.

    This is beyond stupid.

    Anet, remove stealth from wvw. It is toxic, it makes the game more boring. It has no reason to exist and no valid defense to keep it.

    You've been asking this for 7 years. Aren't you bored yet?

    100% this^ seriously except that even though u don't like it others do and it's always been part of the game and isnt going to see any significant changes after 8+ years, seriously.

    since I am playing for less than 5, I can't ask for it for 7.

    That said, so far I haven't seen any reason to keep stealth.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Kylden Ar.3724 said:

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    stealth destroys any guild fighting. Both groups try to outstealth each other and the side which pulls it off, wins. This results in up to 10min of both groups moving around, retreating whenever the other side stealths up.

    This is beyond stupid.

    Anet, remove stealth from wvw. It is toxic, it makes the game more boring. It has no reason to exist and no valid defense to keep it.

    You've been asking this for 7 years. Aren't you bored yet?

    100% this^ seriously except that even though u don't like it others do and it's always been part of the game and isnt going to see any significant changes after 8+ years, seriously.

    since I am playing for less than 5, I can't ask for it for 7.

    That said, so far I haven't seen any reason to keep stealth.

    The last sentence totally disregards the fact that a lot of people like stealth gameplay and a lot learned to play against it which tells me ur mentality. Instead of spending time on this forum talking nonsense use that time to improve at the game, just a helpful tip for ya :)

  • Burnfall.9573Burnfall.9573 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 1, 2020

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Kylden Ar.3724 said:

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    stealth destroys any guild fighting. Both groups try to outstealth each other and the side which pulls it off, wins. This results in up to 10min of both groups moving around, retreating whenever the other side stealths up.

    This is beyond stupid.

    Anet, remove stealth from wvw. It is toxic, it makes the game more boring. It has no reason to exist and no valid defense to keep it.

    You've been asking this for 7 years. Aren't you bored yet?

    100% this^ seriously except that even though u don't like it others do and it's always been part of the game and isnt going to see any significant changes after 8+ years, seriously.

    since I am playing for less than 5, I can't ask for it for 7.

    That said, so far I haven't seen any reason to keep stealth.

    +1

    -Making Stealth Work-
    'Avoiding rage-quitting through great stealth design'

    'Stealth design is like walking a tightrope. Great stealth has to balance gameplay, hiding spots, consequences for detection, immersion, and strategy. It’s a difficult line to walk, made even more so by player expectation. If in regular gameplay you can punch your way clean through most major enemies, forcing a player to arbitrarily hide from those same enemies will cause more frustration than fun.'

    'Games about one player character against hundreds of enemies generally have to give you some kind of unfair advantage. In action games,

    'Stealth games need a different solution, because the fun part is generally over by the time you get shot.'

    'Situations that are present are there because you allow and tolerate them to continue'

  • Get out of jail free skills like this on classes designed with an abundance already is poorly thought out and ridiculous to try and balance. How does it make any sense for the highest ranged skills to also have stealth burst skills or stealth at all for that matter, if any class should be given a stealth skill it is poor mobility slow classes not thieves, trap rangers / druids etc. I've given up any hope that anything is done about this as i see far less developer / community involvement than at any other time in the history of the game or these boards.

  • You guys can try to defend thieves as much as you want, the fact of the matter is that RIGHT NOW, as you are reading this, there is a thief trolling an entire zerg and keeping a keep contested for whatever amount of time he please. No need to go in detail and think like madmen, its not rocket science, the result in action is the best proof. I dont know if its intended by developpers, but its hard to take this game seriously when you have unballanced stuff like that.

  • Caedmon.6798Caedmon.6798 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @MasterDeere.3417 said:
    You guys can try to defend thieves as much as you want, the fact of the matter is that RIGHT NOW, as you are reading this, there is a thief trolling an entire zerg and keeping a keep contested for whatever amount of time he please. No need to go in detail and think like madmen, its not rocket science, the result in action is the best proof. I dont know if its intended by developpers, but its hard to take this game seriously when you have unballanced stuff like that.

    Yeah its not rocket science to use a stealth trap or the stealth throwable object neither.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vlad Morbius.1759 said:
    Get out of jail free skills like this on classes designed with an abundance already is poorly thought out and ridiculous to try and balance. How does it make any sense for the highest ranged skills to also have stealth burst skills or stealth at all for that matter, if any class should be given a stealth skill it is poor mobility slow classes not thieves, trap rangers / druids etc. I've given up any hope that anything is done about this as i see far less developer / community involvement than at any other time in the history of the game or these boards.

    Stealth is not a "get out of jail free card". If all thief had was stealth, thief would be killed constantly. Its teleports that let thief escape whenever they want. Specifically, shortbow 5. Thats why S/D thief still escapes just as well despite not using stealth at all. Also, are you suggesting that thief is one of the best ranged classes? Because its not, and nowhere close.

  • @Caedmon.6798 said:

    @MasterDeere.3417 said:
    You guys can try to defend thieves as much as you want, the fact of the matter is that RIGHT NOW, as you are reading this, there is a thief trolling an entire zerg and keeping a keep contested for whatever amount of time he please. No need to go in detail and think like madmen, its not rocket science, the result in action is the best proof. I dont know if its intended by developpers, but its hard to take this game seriously when you have unballanced stuff like that.

    Yeah its not rocket science to use a stealth trap or the stealth throwable object neither.

    Since when they need invisibility to troll, invisibility is the cherry on the sunday.

    Anyway, whatever you say, we all know a good thief can do WHATEVER he please. End of the story.

    And saying stuff like to use traps and such is really a weak excuse. Because lets say they make the thief even more OP, even to GOD level, you guys will still use that kitten excuses. Heres a real life example on how this excuse is kitten: 1 tank vs 1 human, the tank will win 99% of the time, but you guys will say: "the human had the option to put a grenade into the tank canon". That dosnt make it balanced. In the end, the result will still be the tank winning 99% of the time, like right now thief trolling entire zerg as they please.

    The real result on the battlefield is how you see if a class is balanced or not.

  • choovanski.5462choovanski.5462 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Caedmon.6798 said:

    @MasterDeere.3417 said:
    You guys can try to defend thieves as much as you want, the fact of the matter is that RIGHT NOW, as you are reading this, there is a thief trolling an entire zerg and keeping a keep contested for whatever amount of time he please. No need to go in detail and think like madmen, its not rocket science, the result in action is the best proof. I dont know if its intended by developpers, but its hard to take this game seriously when you have unballanced stuff like that.

    Yeah its not rocket science to use a stealth trap or the stealth throwable object neither.

    yo I want a warrior build you need to use supply to fight too. maybe some kind of new endure pain that just lasts until you use a new type of trap on me that removes it

    I mean, if it's no issue for you to need to use supply and a trap to fight thief, I can't see why warrior shouldn't be permanent endure pain until they get hit by a new type of trap

    if it's ok to have to use a trap and supply to kill one class, why can't it be my class? can't see why not. can't see how if it's fine for thief it wouldn't be OP for warrior too

    seems fair. please add

    It's coming for me through the trees
    Help me someone
    Help me please
    Take my shoes off and throw them in the lake

  • DemonSeed.3528DemonSeed.3528 Member ✭✭✭✭

    and then you will get affected by sentries, tricks/traps, watchtower, marked etc taking away your endure pain/blocks/etc

  • Caedmon.6798Caedmon.6798 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 8, 2020

    @MasterDeere.3417 said:

    @Caedmon.6798 said:

    @MasterDeere.3417 said:
    You guys can try to defend thieves as much as you want, the fact of the matter is that RIGHT NOW, as you are reading this, there is a thief trolling an entire zerg and keeping a keep contested for whatever amount of time he please. No need to go in detail and think like madmen, its not rocket science, the result in action is the best proof. I dont know if its intended by developpers, but its hard to take this game seriously when you have unballanced stuff like that.

    Yeah its not rocket science to use a stealth trap or the stealth throwable object neither.

    Since when they need invisibility to troll, invisibility is the cherry on the sunday.

    Anyway, whatever you say, we all know a good thief can do WHATEVER he please. End of the story.

    And saying stuff like to use traps and such is really a weak excuse. Because lets say they make the thief even more OP, even to GOD level, you guys will still use that kitten excuses. Heres a real life example on how this excuse is kitten: 1 tank vs 1 human, the tank will win 99% of the time, but you guys will say: "the human had the option to put a grenade into the tank canon". That dosnt make it balanced. In the end, the result will still be the tank winning 99% of the time, like right now thief trolling entire zerg as they please.

    The real result on the battlefield is how you see if a class is balanced or not.

    Ive been succesful using stealth traps against them 9 out of 10 times when they try to hide,its also not hard to ask some people to do the same. Just because you arent able to or willing to do this is an issue on your side.

  • KeyOrion.9506KeyOrion.9506 Member ✭✭✭

    @Burnfall.9573 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    6 sec non stack able stealth but replenisheable would be reasonable since the thief can re apply but not stack. Be a nerf but still serviceable by the thieves. That said any major changes to stealth this many yrs into the game are very unlikely

    Since Guild Wars 2 beta; Thief Profession players gave countless, endless positive constructive suggestions, ideas and healthy advices to improve a near-healthy competitive experience for Thief Profession

    What did Anet do? Ignore them.

    Countless of Thief Nerf Wish lists and Thief Balance Suggestions Threads by Thief Profession players follow suit. What did Anet do in return?
    Threw all of them in the trash, setting a clear stage for creating a Toxic experience and a hostile environment for Thief Profession Players with the gaming community

    You've never played ranger have you.

  • Burnfall.9573Burnfall.9573 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 8, 2020

    @KeyOrion.9506 said:

    @Burnfall.9573 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    6 sec non stack able stealth but replenisheable would be reasonable since the thief can re apply but not stack. Be a nerf but still serviceable by the thieves. That said any major changes to stealth this many yrs into the game are very unlikely

    Since Guild Wars 2 beta; Thief Profession players gave countless, endless positive constructive suggestions, ideas and healthy advices to improve a near-healthy competitive experience for Thief Profession

    What did Anet do? Ignore them.

    Countless of Thief Nerf Wish lists and Thief Balance Suggestions Threads by Thief Profession players follow suit. What did Anet do in return?
    Threw all of them in the trash, setting a clear stage for creating a Toxic experience and a hostile environment for Thief Profession Players with the gaming community

    You've never played ranger have you.

    https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Do-you-feel-powerful

    https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Rangers-why-specifically-do-you-hate-them

    -As a former Ranger Profession player, we did once had our own dev who stood up for us and gave up everything to fight for the Ranger Profession including the Ranger community-

    'Situations that are present are there because you allow and tolerate them to continue'

  • choovanski.5462choovanski.5462 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @DemonSeed.3528 said:
    and then you will get affected by sentries, tricks/traps, watchtower, marked etc taking away your endure pain/blocks/etc

    well, it would just be endure pain. thief has blocks evades, etc too and they are not effected by revealed, plus they even have an elite that removes reveal.

    but yeah, that seems fine, glad you think it's fine too. perma endure pain (no power dmg at all) on warrior unless you hit the boy with a trap, or mark em with a watchtower/sentry.

    so now to even do direct damage to a warrior you need to use supply or lead him to an objective that can mark him. seems like a great change for the warrior class that would introduce a lot of high skill gameplay.

    finally we can be a too tier high skill class like Thief that needs supply to fight :dizzy:

    I'm excited for this change, but I have another idea too.

    what if when you fight a necromancer- just give me a second here- you are just feared 100% of the time unless you get him with a trap. I know it sounds pretty cool, and you're excited to see what other high skill changes I have in mind for roaming so everyone can display as much skill as those beautiful thief players. so keep tuned. more ideas are in the works.

    perma endure pain warrior. perma fear necro. I'm just getting started. soon every class will be so high skill you'll need supply to fight anyone at all.

    It's coming for me through the trees
    Help me someone
    Help me please
    Take my shoes off and throw them in the lake

  • Fat Disgrace.4275Fat Disgrace.4275 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @jpsssss.7530 said:

    @kash.9213 said:
    Why not just limit Stealth Attack window instead of making a mess like that?

    Stealth attacks aren't the issue. The issue is thief literally has so many on command stealth abilities and that stealth is the best defensive (and offensive if you're a condi build) tool in the game with no real counter play.

    Stealth is the worst defensive tool. Block, Evade, Invuln are all far better. Hell its so bad at it Im not even sure stealth counts as a defensive tool.

    Sure it is. Except you can use it whenever you want and in combination with other skills. If stealth were one skill that lasted 3 seconds, required a channel, and had a 50s cd the way invuln does nobody would have a problem with it! But no. Stealth is an auto disengage with way too few restrictions on it. Worst design in the game.

    "You can use it whenever you want", uh, as opposed to blocks, invulns and evades which ... you also can use whenever you want? Hell, its worse than that, because Evades, Blocks and Invulns tend to activate instantly, whereas stealth does not, and usually has a lengthy cast time. Also, "you can use it in combination with other skills", in that case its those other skills doing all the work, and invisiblity provided next to nothing. Stealth is not "an auto disengage with way too few restrictions on it" (quite the opposite, its the only way a thief can get himself killed). Shortbow 5 is that.

    Like I said. Too much stealth and mobility. Too few counters and restrictions. A class that is designed to be unhittable and to escape from any fight whenever they want is poor design.

    Too much mobility you can argue. Too much stealth? Stealth is not even useful outside of out of combat scenarios, and in those cases "too much" seems to mean "any access to it at all". Thief is not at all designed to be unhittable (quite the opposite. If the thief doesnt run, theyre one of the easiest classes to hit. Part of why they always have to run). And sure, you could argue that thief always being able to escape from any fight is problematic. But A, that has nothing to do with stealth and is an entirely different conversation, and B, so can Warrior and Ranger, and I dont see you calling for their head.

    Talking to you is pointless. Stealth is a massive advantage, particularly the completely unrestricted version of it they use in this game. It's been explained to you a million times. Agree to disagree. In my opinion, we need to spend less time disengaging and more time fighting.

    If youre unwilling to ever consider the possibility that youre wrong, then yes, talking to the guy who points out that youre wrong is pointless for you. Because youre wrong. Stealth is good, at times problematic, but not for the reasons you say. Its an incredible offensive tool out of combat. It lets you hide cast times and get the drop on enemies who never knew you were even there. But as a defensive tool? Its bad. Its the worst defensive tool by far, and most of the time its worse than just not using it in the first place.

    Sure, I can agree with that. But that would require a WvW split on infiltrators arrow, a nerf to it, and massive buffs to thieves 1v1 capabilities, because currently they are trash.

    Why is stealth pointless while in combat? Nobody really bothers to try a kill a d/p thief but a stealthess s/d or staff theif is a different story, ? Because their stealth is so low and are 90% visable.

    Why is stealth pointless in combat, may be a lot of us are clueless so explain why it's pointless, tell us please.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @choovanski.5462 said:

    @DemonSeed.3528 said:
    and then you will get affected by sentries, tricks/traps, watchtower, marked etc taking away your endure pain/blocks/etc

    well, it would just be endure pain. thief has blocks evades, etc too and they are not effected by revealed, plus they even have an elite that removes reveal.

    but yeah, that seems fine, glad you think it's fine too. perma endure pain (no power dmg at all) on warrior unless you hit the boy with a trap, or mark em with a watchtower/sentry.

    so now to even do direct damage to a warrior you need to use supply or lead him to an objective that can mark him. seems like a great change for the warrior class that would introduce a lot of high skill gameplay.

    finally we can be a too tier high skill class like Thief that needs supply to fight :dizzy:

    I'm excited for this change, but I have another idea too.

    what if when you fight a necromancer- just give me a second here- you are just feared 100% of the time unless you get him with a trap. I know it sounds pretty cool, and you're excited to see what other high skill changes I have in mind for roaming so everyone can display as much skill as those beautiful thief players. so keep tuned. more ideas are in the works.

    perma endure pain warrior. perma fear necro. I'm just getting started. soon every class will be so high skill you'll need supply to fight anyone at all.

    So to make a proper comparison does warrior endure pain skill now constantly need reapplying as well a restocking using a global resource of the warrior to keep up? Can 1 damage types still damage the warrior during endure pain being active like as with how stealth'd opponents can still take all forms of damage?
    Seriously the fact ur comparing a invulnerability skill being constant(in ur discussions) as being the same as stealth in it's current forms shows u guys seriously should not be providing balance input on this game yet.

  • choovanski.5462choovanski.5462 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 9, 2020

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @choovanski.5462 said:

    @DemonSeed.3528 said:
    and then you will get affected by sentries, tricks/traps, watchtower, marked etc taking away your endure pain/blocks/etc

    well, it would just be endure pain. thief has blocks evades, etc too and they are not effected by revealed, plus they even have an elite that removes reveal.

    but yeah, that seems fine, glad you think it's fine too. perma endure pain (no power dmg at all) on warrior unless you hit the boy with a trap, or mark em with a watchtower/sentry.

    so now to even do direct damage to a warrior you need to use supply or lead him to an objective that can mark him. seems like a great change for the warrior class that would introduce a lot of high skill gameplay.

    finally we can be a too tier high skill class like Thief that needs supply to fight :dizzy:

    I'm excited for this change, but I have another idea too.

    what if when you fight a necromancer- just give me a second here- you are just feared 100% of the time unless you get him with a trap. I know it sounds pretty cool, and you're excited to see what other high skill changes I have in mind for roaming so everyone can display as much skill as those beautiful thief players. so keep tuned. more ideas are in the works.

    perma endure pain warrior. perma fear necro. I'm just getting started. soon every class will be so high skill you'll need supply to fight anyone at all.

    So to make a proper comparison does warrior endure pain skill now constantly need reapplying as well a restocking using a global resource of the warrior to keep up? Can 1 damage types still damage the warrior during endure pain being active like as with how stealth'd opponents can still take all forms of damage?
    Seriously the fact ur comparing a invulnerability skill being constant(in ur discussions) as being the same as stealth in it's current forms shows u guys seriously should not be providing balance input on this game yet.

    obviously you don't know how endure pain work if you have to ask these questions. perhaps take a look at the skill on wiki if you are unsure of its properties (clue it doesn't make you invulnerable to all damage like you seem to think).

    regardless, you missed the point. it's this: why is thief the only class you have to use traps built with supply to fight? why is the counter to stealth builds on Thief using supply to build a trap, when no other build in the game on any other class needs something built with supply to fight it.

    these are obviously not serious balance suggestions, I am making them in jest- but not without purpose. I'm trying to illustrate how ridiculous it would be if every class had a mechanic that had to be countered with a supply built trap to have a good chance of fighting it.

    if necro had a perma boon on it that feared you on attack, unless you used a trap to remove that boon, but they also had an elite skill that reapplied it- that would be pretty silly. imagine having to use supply to build a trap just to fight a necro.

    so when I see people suggesting supply built traps as a way to fight thief, I have to wonder what it would be like for every class. what if every class needed a special supply built trap to fight it, like Thief does? wouldn't that be a meme

    It's coming for me through the trees
    Help me someone
    Help me please
    Take my shoes off and throw them in the lake

  • ASP.8093ASP.8093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The stealth trap isn't really an "I want to beat thieves" mechanic, it's an "I don't want to fight thieves" mechanic.