WvW Event Proposal: Week Long Social Awkwardness Instability

I am quite enjoying the no downstate event. It seems to demonstrate how the downstate mostly acts as a carry mechanic for the side with larger numbers, and perhaps is Anets way of acknowledging the problem - and perhaps the precursor to correcting it.

There is another large problem in WvW we have always taken for granted that an event like this could look to address. The issue of stacking inside players. The idea of being able to walk inside your ally/opponent for mechanical advantage never made much sense from a practical standpoint. It has strongly incentivized peak organzied zerg combat to evolve into a monstrosity we call 'the stack' - a blob the size of a few people containing 30 or more that avoid AoE targeting while maintaining grp heal/boon priority. While nearly universal amongst organized guilds, it isnt a very complex strategy, and after you have done it a while not that interesting to watch or participate in.

Thus, this WvW Event Proposal: A week of Social Awkwardness Instability, which would behave similar to the fractal variant, with some small adjustments. This event would have all players in Wvw unable to blob or stack into one player sized radius for the week. Additionally it would allow players to push eachother and push back, enabling all sorts of shenanigans.

The change would both dramatically increase the potential tactics available in Wvw as well as better reflect the realities of actual combat that Wvw has always tried to mimic.

What do you guys think?

IMO go the full mile instead, player collision and friendly fire.

The thing with Social Awkwardness in Fractals is that there's just five of you, and if someone is a jerk you kick them and find someone who actually wants to play.

In WvW, there's, what, 50? 70? people per map per side. And you don't choose who's on your team, short of moving to a different map or spending gems to transfer servers. So the trolling potential is rather severe.

Actually, the idea about adding some mistlock instabilities to wvw would be fun(but maybe, keep it to EotM for better memes) like Frailty or Last Laugh or others.

Social Awkwardness week? I think you mean Afk Pip Farm week.

@ASP.8093 said:In WvW, there's, what, 50? 70? people per map per side. And you don't choose who's on your team, short of moving to a different map or spending gems to transfer servers. So the trolling potential is rather severe.What do you mean, commanders tell people not on voice to gtfo all the time. I'm certain it's effective.

The reason why players stack is actually the boon system. There are plenty of other games with no collision that have less stacking happening.

@Dawdler.8521 said:IMO go the full mile instead, player collision and friendly fire.

I'm on board with collision.

I always thought that there were performance issues when you implement collision detection, though.

@Ganathar.4956 said:The reason why players stack is actually the boon system. There are plenty of other games with no collision that have less stacking happening.

Finally, someone who gets it. Add in the combo field/finisher mechanics. Social awkwardness discourages those mechanics.

@Chaba.5410 said:

@Ganathar.4956 said:The reason why players stack is actually the boon system. There are plenty of other games with no collision that have less stacking happening.

But come on you can’t say the image of everyone being bumped off a wall or cliff wouldn’t be funny. I can imagine our commanders going “for gods sake quit pushing me!!!!”

We need that and also No Pain No Gain, so every fight (even against guards) is unwinnable without boon strip.

Also imagine if 2 zergs were trying to shove each other off a cliff.

@Sinfullysweet.4517 said:

@Chaba.5410 said:

@Ganathar.4956 said:The reason why players stack is actually the boon system. There are plenty of other games with no collision that have less stacking happening.

Now that you put it that way... I'd lead zergs to cliffs myself lol!

+1 here. Would be game to try.

keep pve to pve…. don't bring social awkwardness in wvw.many wvw players will stop playing. the same in fractal, when Ben brought in mistlock, big chunk of players left the game.

@Talindra.4958 said:keep pve to pve…. don't bring social awkwardness in wvw.many wvw players will stop playing. the same in fractal, when Ben brought in mistlock, big chunk of players left the game.Agreed, Was a funny image In my head but wvw won’t get changed.

If they put in the fractal social awkwardness version it will be annoying to deal with as you can push people away.The only way it would work is if the collisionbox was used as the limit of how much distance people need to spread apart and if people couldn't push others (as in if you try to stack it stops where the collisionbox is).

So the things needed to make it work:

1. limit the collision to the character models (not sure if asura have smaller collision boxes , if so just standardize it)
2. no pushing, only stopping when it is about to go inside another collisionbox (i.e. no "bumper cars" momentum)--> if stopping and no pushing, what is the precaution against a guild griefing others by blocking the exits to spawn? Would you limit it to squad only? If it's limited to squad then would people just get in comms and not join squad?
3. enemies would also need to have collision or it would be pointless , frontlining would actually mean something (see Frost Citadel's Phalanx in Drizzlewood Coast)
4. heal scrappper and heal tempest would be the preferred healing methods due to their ranges , how would you address this? I think most people would just run guardians for Stand your Ground and run them as some sort of sage amulet-like burn firebrand (of course the resolve passive is also a large radius ; you get ~75% effectiveness with just 500ish heal power due to the heal scaling nerfs).
5. in such a scenario, how would you deal with Coalescence of Ruin from hammer heralds or Gunflame gimmick tactics? It's a given that power revs would still be a thing due to the 600 radius on facets.
6. how would transfusion work on any scourges that are running support in some form? Would the downed just port into a neat pile but spaced apart?
7. how would pulls work? Namely mesmer focus 4 , chrono gravity well, guardian Greatsword 5, spectral grasp on necro, etc have more or less functionality based on grouping things up.
8. what's stopping deadeyes and full zerk rangers or rifle gunflame warriors from pinsniping?
9. address server performance limitations with regards to desync and lag (intentional or unintentional)

Give it a little more thought , address these things first.

@"Infusion.7149" said:

1. limit the collision to the character models (not sure if asura have smaller collision boxes , if so just standardize it)
2. no pushing, only stopping when it is about to go inside another collisionbox (i.e. no "bumper cars" momentum)--> if stopping and no pushing, what is the precaution against a guild griefing others by blocking the exits to spawn? Would you limit it to squad only? If it's limited to squad then would people just get in comms and not join squad?
3. enemies would also need to have collision or it would be pointless , frontlining would actually mean something (see Frost Citadel's Phalanx in Drizzlewood Coast)
4. heal scrappper and heal tempest would be the preferred healing methods due to their ranges , how would you address this? I think most people would just run guardians for Stand your Ground and run them as some sort of sage amulet-like burn firebrand (of course the resolve passive is also a large radius ; you get ~75% effectiveness with just 500ish heal power due to the heal scaling nerfs).
5. in such a scenario, how would you deal with Coalescence of Ruin from hammer heralds or Gunflame gimmick tactics? It's a given that power revs would still be a thing due to the 600 radius on facets.
6. how would transfusion work on any scourges that are running support in some form? Would the downed just port into a neat pile but spaced apart?
7. how would pulls work? Namely mesmer focus 4 , chrono gravity well, guardian Greatsword 5, spectral grasp on necro, etc have more or less functionality based on grouping things up.
8. what's stopping deadeyes and full zerk rangers or rifle gunflame warriors from pinsniping?
9. address server performance limitations with regards to desync and lag (intentional or unintentional)

1. The collision from the fractal instability is already identical for each character.
2. Pushing should absolutely be a thing. If that means you need to be more careful or strategic fighting near a cliff, that adds an additional dimension to combat complexity and is good for wvw.
3. Invalidated by 2.
4. Enemies would also have collision.
5. Managing healing with increased radius is trivial, as you have demonstrated. However, the on access mindless heal spam would be significantly cut, adding more strategy to the healing role in a zerg.
6. 'Gimmicks', otherwise known as gameplay as designed are already an issue in WvW, this event would only reveal it to more scrutiny, as is such with burst stealth teleport builds in the current No Downstate event. Such builds were gimmicks beforehand and should be balanced accordingly - but is otherwise irrelevant to this suggestion.
7. Transfusion would work the same it does in Fractals. You pull them, they appear in a circular spaced apart pile.
8. Pulls would work as currently, with the new adjustment of target pushing the puller slightly on impact.
9. Pinsniping has always been a thing and is a fair strategy. Organized commanders would not be threatened by this due to nearby support, and pugmanders will do as they always have done.
10. Desync is currently an issue. This event is unrelated. There is no difference in FPS between a fractal with the instability and one without according to my performance measurements. I imagine Anet would speak up if this is still a limitation, but afaik that issue was corrected long ago.

Ultimately, addition of collision would vastly improve the strategy components of WvW while removing the nonsense aspect of a 30 man zerg stacking to the radius of 2-3 players for the purposes of avoiding mechanics. I suspect, like the No Downstate event, there will be many benefits from hosting such a thing that will improve our gamemode for the better.

@Dawdler.8521 said:IMO go the full mile instead, player collision and friendly fire.

Honestly dude, I have been saying for a while that if the game had collision detection and friendly fire (think AoEs) that the game would be totally different and would finally also break up the zerg meta and get people to spread out more.

So, of course this will not happen because the casuals can't fight without the stack.

I hoped they would introduce social awkwardness as april's fool, especially when corona kicked in...Would have been really funny to watch zergs in wvw xD

But instead we got cats :(

@Apokriphos.7042 said:

@"Infusion.7149" said:

1. limit the collision to the character models (not sure if asura have smaller collision boxes , if so just standardize it)
2. no pushing, only stopping when it is about to go inside another collisionbox (i.e. no "bumper cars" momentum)--> if stopping and no pushing, what is the precaution against a guild griefing others by blocking the exits to spawn? Would you limit it to squad only? If it's limited to squad then would people just get in comms and not join squad?
3. enemies would also need to have collision or it would be pointless , frontlining would actually mean something (see Frost Citadel's Phalanx in Drizzlewood Coast)
4. heal scrappper and heal tempest would be the preferred healing methods due to their ranges , how would you address this? I think most people would just run guardians for Stand your Ground and run them as some sort of sage amulet-like burn firebrand (of course the resolve passive is also a large radius ; you get ~75% effectiveness with just 500ish heal power due to the heal scaling nerfs).
5. in such a scenario, how would you deal with Coalescence of Ruin from hammer heralds or Gunflame gimmick tactics? It's a given that power revs would still be a thing due to the 600 radius on facets.
6. how would transfusion work on any scourges that are running support in some form? Would the downed just port into a neat pile but spaced apart?
7. how would pulls work? Namely mesmer focus 4 , chrono gravity well, guardian Greatsword 5, spectral grasp on necro, etc have more or less functionality based on grouping things up.
8. what's stopping deadeyes and full zerk rangers or rifle gunflame warriors from pinsniping?
9. address server performance limitations with regards to desync and lag (intentional or unintentional)

1. The collision from the fractal instability is already identical for each character.
2. Pushing should absolutely be a thing. If that means you need to be more careful or strategic fighting near a cliff, that adds an additional dimension to combat complexity and is good for wvw.
3. Invalidated by 2.
4. Enemies would also have collision.
5. Managing healing with increased radius is trivial, as you have demonstrated. However, the on access mindless heal spam would be significantly cut, adding more strategy to the healing role in a zerg.
6. 'Gimmicks', otherwise known as gameplay as designed are already an issue in WvW, this event would only reveal it to more scrutiny, as is such with burst stealth teleport builds in the current No Downstate event. Such builds were gimmicks beforehand and should be balanced accordingly - but is otherwise irrelevant to this suggestion.
7. Transfusion would work the same it does in Fractals. You pull them, they appear in a circular spaced apart pile.
8. Pulls would work as currently, with the new adjustment of target pushing the puller slightly on impact.
9. Pinsniping has always been a thing and is a fair strategy. Organized commanders would not be threatened by this due to nearby support, and pugmanders will do as they always have done.
10. Desync is currently an issue. This event is unrelated. There is no difference in FPS between a fractal with the instability and one without according to my performance measurements. I imagine Anet would speak up if this is still a limitation, but afaik that issue was corrected long ago.

Pushing allies would be detrimental because it would be prone to griefing as mentioned above by someone else. It's counterproductive to your main goal you outlined, which is to prevent stacking inside each others' hitboxes.

When I say performance limitations I mean if you have up to 150 -200 people in an area such as Stonemist castle and because you have collision each person has to get the movement information of 149-199 other people with collision to influence their movement. I'm not sure if you remember the lagfest slideshow that was the laser event on Desert Borderlands at its inception. (In preview testing it was fine but the amount of testers at a given moment is never as high as on live even when a stresstest is called for.)

Even at a smaller scale of say 25-30 people (total including both sides), you would need to have movement data from all the other people. I am not talking about FPS, as that is related to the rendering of the engine : I mean the actual compute server-side and communication between all clients involved. You'd probably end up with movement lag of some sort similar to current skill lag where you can move but cannot use skills even if not dazed.

This is exponentially more difficult than for 5-10 people , especially since it's hosted on AWS. Even if it can be done, it would likely be at a severe data usage penalty which results in even higher running costs. I wouldn't mind seeing it in action, but all aspects of performance ingame and server-side would need to be scrutinized. For one, it's in Arenanet's best interest to have players actually see character models more often in WvW while playing as it sells more skins: stacking means it's inconsequential especially for asura and sylvari.

@Nimon.7840 said:I hoped they would introduce social awkwardness as april's fool, especially when corona kicked in...Would have been really funny to watch zergs in wvw xD

But instead we got cats :(

The cats were good, tho.

@"Infusion.7149" said:If they put in the fractal social awkwardness version it will be annoying to deal with as you can push people away.The only way it would work is if the collisionbox was used as the limit of how much distance people need to spread apart and if people couldn't push others (as in if you try to stack it stops where the collisionbox is).

So the things needed to make it work:

1. limit the collision to the character models (not sure if asura have smaller collision boxes , if so just standardize it)
2. no pushing, only stopping when it is about to go inside another collisionbox (i.e. no "bumper cars" momentum)--> if stopping and no pushing, what is the precaution against a guild griefing others by blocking the exits to spawn? Would you limit it to squad only? If it's limited to squad then would people just get in comms and not join squad?
3. enemies would also need to have collision or it would be pointless , frontlining would actually mean something (see Frost Citadel's Phalanx in Drizzlewood Coast)
4. heal scrappper and heal tempest would be the preferred healing methods due to their ranges , how would you address this? I think most people would just run guardians for Stand your Ground and run them as some sort of sage amulet-like burn firebrand (of course the resolve passive is also a large radius ; you get ~75% effectiveness with just 500ish heal power due to the heal scaling nerfs).
5. in such a scenario, how would you deal with Coalescence of Ruin from hammer heralds or Gunflame gimmick tactics? It's a given that power revs would still be a thing due to the 600 radius on facets.
6. how would transfusion work on any scourges that are running support in some form? Would the downed just port into a neat pile but spaced apart?
7. how would pulls work? Namely mesmer focus 4 , chrono gravity well, guardian Greatsword 5, spectral grasp on necro, etc have more or less functionality based on grouping things up.
8. what's stopping deadeyes and full zerk rangers or rifle gunflame warriors from pinsniping?
9. address server performance limitations with regards to desync and lag (intentional or unintentional)

Give it a little more thought , address these things first.

The ability to push other players away is the proper way to do collisions, and is a good thing. Other games tend to use collision only, and this results in griefing as you can just block someone from entering buildings ,etc. Of course, enemies should just be blocked, but allies should be pushable because its alot less stressful to be pushed around a bit than to be completely blocked off from chokes, even unintentionally.

I'd just make it so it checks the edges of the terrain so you can't be pushed off anything. The game already has code to do this, NPCs in PvE can't be knocked off any terrain by players, so this would just need to be modified so that it responds to player collusion instead of knockback skills, which should be kept as they are and still able to knock players off of edges.

As for how things like pulls would work, use the same mechanic as in Blizzard's RTS games. Players are allowed to group up on a single spot (stack), briefly and then will naturally separate over time, this way they can't stay focused on a point.

Anyway we'll never see this happen, the reason games don't implement collision is because of performance (lag).

What we might see however is the ability to body block (Social Awardness) on player skills, so that they're only used occasionally and won't impact server performance very much, while still allowing defensive strategy in choke points.

Imagine your front-line tanks stopping the enemy blob from running over yours until they're defeated.

It would only be fun for first 30 minutes or so. Given that radius of AOE skills is rathe small it'll make "two zergs growl at each other" and "single-target sniper night" happen (while number of players per tick is limited, generally you can hit more of them when there's no stacking limitation)

I think we should have "you don't get any stealth" events first. Having zergs not be able to stealth and sniping squads be out in the open would be a fun event.

I seem to remember a certain excellent game that used to have body blocking. Oh yes, now I remember. It was Guild Wars.