Why not split full counter?

By split, i mean give it the same treatment as daredavil dodges. Remove functionality from base fc and split it into 3 traits. One can be anti phys, another anti condi and another dps focused.

Make base fc only grant aoe daze, base 16 sec cd. Say you make a trait for fc that gives stability, protection and regen and reduces cd to 10 sec. Another trait grants resistance and copies up to 5 condis but uses the stats of the one who triggers fc for the condi application. The third trait can be unblockable and increase damage by 100% and have it remove 1 boon as a base. All of these should be mutually exclusive.

What do you guys think?

I like the way it is. It's useful but not to useful. I don't want it to be a crutch.

Let's do that if they put steal on a 1 minute cooldown, see how the thieves feel about that one.

@Kaga.7629 said:Let's do that if they put steal on a 1 minute cooldown, see how the thieves feel about that one.

Hyperboles do not help your argument bud

Full counter isn't really the problem. The problem is the synergy between passive regen, dodges, evades, shield block, GS mobility and CC. All full counter did was add another invul/CC to the rotation. Which in turn makes the counter play interval against warrior even smaller. They could technically nerf tons of stuff: Increase the shield block CD, lower health regen of healing signet and adrenal health (which they have done a few times already), nerf full counter for no reason or lower some of the mobility given my GS.

Unlike Scourge, nerfing Spellbreaker will be difficult. One wrong decision might put warrior out of the competition. They don't want that I'm sure.

@Kaga.7629 said:Let's do that if they put steal on a 1 minute cooldown, see how the thieves feel about that one.

Cool because I don't main a thief! Let's do it.

@Aza.2105 said:Full counter isn't really the problem. The problem is the synergy between passive regen, dodges, evades, shield block, GS mobility and CC. All full counter did was add another invul/CC to the rotation. Which in turn makes the counter play interval against warrior even smaller. They could technically nerf tons of stuff: Increase the shield block CD, lower health regen of healing signet and adrenal health (which they have done a few times already), nerf full counter for no reason or lower some of the mobility given my GS.

Unlike Scourge, nerfing Spellbreaker will be difficult. One wrong decision might put warrior out of the competition. They don't want that I'm sure.

The reason why people suggest changing full counter IS because that's guaranteed to not affect core warrior. Most agree, Full Counter isn't "the" problem, you can't really single out any 1 mechanic

Warriors are very polarized in what they do. Kinda like @Chaith.8256 and @"Aza.2105" touched on. Right now they have too many "invuln" frames, be it Blocks, Evades Dodging, Hard dmg mitigation with FC / Endure Pain or Resistance. This all offers very limited counter-play compared to say, Protection and or invisibility.Warriors have very few boons, hence you can't rely on boon-hate to beat them. This also leads into a very absolute defense in that, nerfing them too much will render them completely useless. This is why Warrior has always been either on the very top or the very bottom in terms of Strength.

I for one utterly despise everything about Warrior and would want nothing more than to see them removed from the meta or even the game entirely. What's worse is that most Spellbreaker players somehow feels entitled to being overpowered in PvP because Spellbreaker isn't viable in PvE.

That being said, the only way I can see Spellbreaker being balanced in PvP is if they split the balance of traits / skills from CORE WARRIOR / BERSERKER. Reducing Adrendal Health and or Healing Signet regen even further. Removing evade frames from GS 3 and/ or increasing CD on Shield 5 or the stability trait. (I want to say last stand(?)).

FC was nerf/fixed by about 30% when running revenge counter. It definitely is much less of a problem in 1v1s. Still pretty strong when outnumbered, but warriors damage relies on much more than full counter now that revenge counter is changed.

It could probably still use a bit more tuning on its defense/traits, but like others have said if you over nerf it spellbreaker becomes useless. Core warrior already wins the 1v1 vs spellbreaker every time, but spellbreaker is better vs some other setups.

@Loop.8106 said:Warriors are very polarized in what they do. Kinda like @Chaith.8256 and @"Aza.2105" touched on. Right now they have too many "invuln" frames, be it Blocks, Evades Dodging, Hard dmg mitigation with FC / Endure Pain or Resistance. This all offers very limited counter-play compared to say, Protection and or invisibility.Warriors have very few boons, hence you can't rely on boon-hate to beat them. This also leads into a very absolute defense in that, nerfing them too much will render them completely useless. This is why Warrior has always been either on the very top or the very bottom in terms of Strength.

I for one utterly despise everything about Warrior and would want nothing more than to see them removed from the meta or even the game entirely. What's worse is that most Spellbreaker players somehow feels entitled to being overpowered in PvP because Spellbreaker isn't viable in PvE.

That being said, the only way I can see Spellbreaker being balanced in PvP is if they split the balance of traits / skills from CORE WARRIOR / BERSERKER. Reducing Adrendal Health and or Healing Signet regen even further. Removing evade frames from GS 3 and/ or increasing CD on Shield 5 or the stability trait. (I want to say last stand(?)).

That would be too much. Its hard to balance out and everyone knows it. It would probably take a warrior revamp and we know Anet will not do it. Sure FC could be nerfed but then Spellbreaker becomes not so good because of it. Maybe they could revamp the traits that make FC so loaded and it might help but I don't know. One thing I do know is that the entire defense trait line has always been too loaded. Everything good pvp wise goes there. Maybe if they were to switch a few traits around then it could make balancing them a bit more easier, but again I don't know.

Imo, they should of stuck with their original balance philosophy for each role and there wouldn't be too many balance problems. The current state of warrior and the game is years of making classes into something they were never meant to be.

@ButterPeanut.9746 said:FC was nerf/fixed by about 30% when running revenge counter. It definitely is much less of a problem in 1v1s. Still pretty strong when outnumbered, but warriors damage relies on much more than full counter now that revenge counter is changed.

It could probably still use a bit more tuning on its defense/traits, but like others have said if you over nerf it spellbreaker becomes useless. Core warrior already wins the 1v1 vs spellbreaker every time, but spellbreaker is better vs some other setups.

The problem isn't FC on its own, it's that FC on top of the core warrior defenses and shield skills is simply too much durability for a marauder (or demolisher) build that has that much hard cc, mobility and damage. Personally, FC isn't even that bad, but the fact that they get it every 6 seconds or so is. That's too short a cooldown for a defensive skill that powerful.

Making adrenal health a major trait rather than a minor one and having it compete with defy pain is a good way to not nerf the trait itself but make it harder to stack defenses, forcing you to pick and choose.

@Kuya.6495 said:Making adrenal health a major trait rather than a minor one and having it compete with defy pain is a good way to not nerf the trait itself but make it harder to stack defenses, forcing you to pick and choose.

That wouldn't do much. Defy pain trait isn't even that great. 2 secs immunity and a 60 sec cd. Warriors take it because the competing traits aren't very competitive: Sundering mace and the trait that converts 10% of toughness to power.

@Aza.2105 said:

@Kuya.6495 said:Making adrenal health a major trait rather than a minor one and having it compete with defy pain is a good way to not nerf the trait itself but make it harder to stack defenses, forcing you to pick and choose.

My idea is to avoid over nerfing but to lower sustain a bit by not allowing warriors to stack all the sustain traits together and take berserker amulets.

@Kuya.6495 said:we can put Might Makes Right in the same row as Forceful Greatsword.

My idea is to avoid over nerfing but to lower sustain a bit

haha....hahahah....hahahahahaha....hahahahahahahahaha

Its the traits that are the biggest problem with FC honestly. You'd still be able to> @Aza.2105 said:

@Kuya.6495 said:Making adrenal health a major trait rather than a minor one and having it compete with defy pain is a good way to not nerf the trait itself but make it harder to stack defenses, forcing you to pick and choose.

While true, this would still make them choose either defy pain or adrenal health, which means we wouldn't have any more passive procs of defy pain, which is a good thing.

Bad idea. All this does is encourage build wars.

Also:

@Kuya.6495 said:Well, we don't have to do either/or. We can both split full counter and place adrenal health and defy pain in the same row. Additionally, we can put Might Makes Right in the same row as Forceful Greatsword.

lolwtf?

The overwhelming majority of spellbreaker builds don't even spec the traitline Might makes right is in, so you are asking for a nerf to something that doesn't even get used. MMR also requires constant abilities to land for it to even work making it inferior to adrenal health in many ways which is why few people run it.

If anything MMR could use a buff and adrenal health could use a nerf. Force warriors to have to take both offense and defense traits to get the full sustain.

I'm actually all for some core Warrior reworks. I think there's a possibility of keeping the rough power level the same, while raising the skill floor to make the good Warriors stand out more from the bad.

Last Stand: Only gives one quick pulse of Stability with a slightly shorter ICD. This would mean you could trigger it with a junk CC then capitalize sooner instead of being unable to CC for the next 10 seconds. Either that or take away the ICD decrease and give the trait a stance CD reduction so there's more reason to run the actual Balanced Stance.

Defy Pain: Make this like so many other Warrior traits and have you gain a stacking Toughness and maybe vitality buff when you land burst skills like Berserker's Power and Adrenal Health. This means good Wars that land their bursts get tougher but there's no freebie save at 50%.

Make Full Counter a 10 second CD, 8 with Discipline, and you got yourself a strong class with a lesser reliance on passives but can still be a powerful bruiser if you land your bursts. There will be no having to stop your burst at 50%, but if you keep getting hit your going to be contending with a tough cookie. If you know your big CC early, which is dumb vs every class, you'll be punished, but if you wait a few seconds you can go right back to CCing them. A good War will time their counter and block to avoid that, but now you aren't out of luck if your build is CC focused

@Master Ketsu.4569 said:Bad idea. All this does is encourage build wars.

Also:

@Kuya.6495 said:Well, we don't have to do either/or. We can both split full counter and place adrenal health and defy pain in the same row. Additionally, we can put Might Makes Right in the same row as Forceful Greatsword.

I personally prefer running might makes right on spellbreaker. The sustain you can maintain with this along with magebane tether is amazing, which in turn means you are constantly recovering health. I believe you can also replace adrenal health with might makes right if you take magebane tether.

I think the brunt of complaints about unkillable SBs come from those who are running both might makes right and adrenal health. Might makes right is a trait that was complained about on the forums a few times even by olrun before PoF, so i feel that is also a problematic trait that lets warriors have a high uptime of dodging along with high health regen.

Like i said, despite the laughter from a few, I wana keep the regen levels where they are at. I just want warriors to choose whether they go for damage inmunities (defy pain) or health regen (adrenal health).

In terms of pitting forceful greatsword against might makes right, is because i don't feel there is anything else besides fg that is impactful enough to be worth pitting against mmr. FG is precisely what makes MMR so strong if you take GS. Although taking magebane tether might justify not taking greatsword along with might makes right.

jesus. have to say I fear for my class.

as a peasant who is still playing HoT, because I don't think anet is deserving of my euros. I would much rather the SpellBreaker line itself, and FC get nerfed.

core warrior and berserker and not overperforming. the problem is SpellBreaker, and FC. so nerf those. tweak FCs cooldown/radius/targetcount, change amount of condis copied, change duration of boons etc.

change the elite spec that's actually causing the issues. don't nerf the core spec. that's gonna make it so warrior needs to play SpellBreaker because it's so weak without it (due to nerfing core).

like, maybe I'm still deeply salty after the Berserker AH nerf (I am, I'm still salty) but I'm really not in the mood for Berserker to have to bend over and take a third round of nerfs because SpellBreaker is OP.like go to heck with that!underserved!unfair!not keen!

TLDR: SpellBreaker is the issue, not core warrior so nerf the elite spec

PS. mad props to anyone not taking discipline

@Loop.8106 said:Reducing Adrendal Health and or Healing Signet regen even further.

Are you insane? Healing signet has been nerfed too many times in the past 5 years! You guys are warrior haters.