Suggestion: Grenadier

I read some complaints about grenadier in PvP contexts recently and I can't help to keep thinking that this trait should probably get changed.The lesser grenade barrage on healing skill always felt odd for me. Getting random AoE damage around yourself when using a healing skill feels really clunky in my opinion.

So I would suggest to replace the lesser grenade barrage with another effect. This goes along with an opportunity to change another trait in the explosives tree.Shrapnel as a trait only ever got taken in the past in combination with grenades. 33% chance to get 1 stack of bleeding and cripple is not really exciting as an effect and the only way to make this trait really worth and reliable was by using it with grenades, since these allowed you to spam 3 explosions at once.

So my suggestion is to remove shrapnel as a grandmaster trait and change grenadier that it applies 1 stack of bleeding per grenade.That stack should have way shorter duration on PvP, of course, to prevent sudden condition spikes, especially if used with grenade barrage.

This would fortify grenade kit as a great condition weapon, giving you condition damage from every grenade (now even on the blinding and chilling grenades).Even the toolbelt skill, grenade barrage, which to this point has been solely power damage focused, now would also provide good condition damage by giving you up to 6 stacks of bleeding. In PvE, these could also get allowed to persist longer, so you might get some pretty good damage output here.

The cripple from shrapnel would get removed. I don't want to overload the trait too much and also spammable cripple is not fun to fight.Shrapnel would see a rework, preferably into another condition focused trait. It was always weird to just have 1 single trait in explosives working with conditions. These changes would at least give condition builds 1 option for the adept and grandmaster tier respectively. Possibly we could also tag a damaging condition on aim assisted rocket, so condition builds can use the entire trait line.

TL,DRRemove lesser grenade barrage from grenadier, let grenades apply 1 stack of bleeding instead.Rework shrapnel into another condition focused trait.

Id just like a working auto attack for grenade kit and mortar kit

@Lynx.9058 said:Id just like a working auto attack for grenade kit and mortar kit

How would you like grenade and mortar auto attacks to function? That the character is automatically placing the AoE on the position of the enemy?

I might be a bit mean saying that, but does grenadier really need more than the grenade velocity and the increased radius? I think it's already pretty strong in itself for an adept trait, the proc on using a heal skill feel out of place. I understand that trait that only affect a lone kit are pretty restrictive but the effect itself is definitely to strong for the tier it is in. If they really feel the need to add something and want to keep the current layout of the trait, make using a heal skill drop a single flash grenade at the engineer's feets.

Shrapnel should just be a 100% chance for explosions that make a critical hit to cause bleeding and cripple, I don't get the fetish that ANet got with random procs.

@"Dadnir.5038" said:I might be a bit mean saying that, but does grenadier really need more than the grenade velocity and the increased radius? I think it's already pretty strong in itself for an adept trait, the proc on using a heal skill feel out of place. I understand that trait that only affect a lone kit are pretty restrictive but the effect itself is definitely to strong for the tier it is in. If they really feel the need to add something and want to keep the current layout of the trait, make using a heal skill drop a single flash grenade at the engineer's feets.

Shrapnel should just be a 100% chance for explosions that make a critical hit to cause bleeding and cripple, I don't get the fetish that ANet got with random procs.

I guess it depends how you want to look at it.

The increased velocity and radius definitely are strong benefits of the trait.... I would say it is even required to make grenades usable against moving targets.And that is my main concern, that the trait is increasing the performance of grenades that should actually be baseline, since it is determining that the kit is even effective at all. Try to hit someone in PvP without that trait...

Removing the lesser grenade barrage without any compensation might feel bad for players, since they are left with a trait that is required to make the kit even working. It wouldn't feel like an upgrade, but more like a stolen trait choice if you want to take grenades in some environments.

I don't know if replacing the lesser grenade barrage with a flash grenade of all things would be a good choice. People are already up in arms for "blind spam" with the flashbang trait. Giving engineer another traited AoE blind might not be the best decision here.

About shrapnel: I guess they went with 33% chance mostly because they were afraid that the cripple spam would become overbearing. The trait currently applies 1 second of cripple kinda reliable per grenade skill thrown, since 3 grenades with 33% chance to proc it will result in almost always one grenade doing so.However, if they change it to 100%, then this means 3 seconds of cripple per grenade throw. Additionally, up to 6 seconds of cripple from grenade barrage.You can stack this condition to pretty long durations this way and I think this is what Anet wanted to prevent.

Which, unfortunately, now leads to the effect I was talking about: if you are using shrapnel at all, then you are using it with grenades, since these are the only explosions you can spam fast and frequent enough to get reliable results from this grandmaster trait.

And putting a doubled barrier on it like having to use explosions and then these explosions also need to crit feels a bit much restrictive again.Might just be me, tho.

I thought putting the bleeding onto grenades would therefore be the best. Especially since grenades are also already used in condition heavy builds.

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Lynx.9058 said:Id just like a working auto attack for grenade kit and mortar kit

Yes. I tried to get that effect with the settings like some players suggested, but it still doesnt really autoattack, I have to sit there mashing 1, and I've got arthritis and carpal tunnel issues that make constant button presses uncomfortable and sometimes painful.

@"Kodama.6453" said:I guess it depends how you want to look at it.

The increased velocity and radius definitely are strong benefits of the trait.... I would say it is even required to make grenades usable against moving targets.And that is my main concern, that the trait is increasing the performance of grenades that should actually be baseline, since it is determining that the kit is even effective at all. Try to hit someone in PvP without that trait...

Removing the lesser grenade barrage without any compensation might feel bad for players, since they are left with a trait that is required to make the kit even working. It wouldn't feel like an upgrade, but more like a stolen trait choice if you want to take grenades in some environments.

I think you choose well your words here: "might feel bad for players". Yes indeed players would feel bad. Players like their gimmicks and are always reluctant to lose them. The thing is that however you put it, the grenade barrage certainly have to go and players that enjoyed this gimmick will feel bad when they will lose it. Some will even argue that it seldom worked or that it was "weak".

I don't now if replacing the lesser grenade barrage with a flash grenade of all things would be a good choice. People are already up in arms for "blind spam" with the flashbang trait. Giving engineer another traited AoE blind might not be the best decision here.

I'm pretty sure players prefer to miss a single attack every 20-30 seconds than take 5K burst. (now medic kit is an issue in itself but, from experience, ANet know how to build ICD within a trait.)

About shrapnel: I guess they went with 33% chance mostly because they were afraid that the cripple spam would become overbearing. The trait currently applies 1 second of cripple kinda reliable per grenade skill thrown, since 3 grenades with 33% chance to proc it will result in almost always one grenade doing so.However, if they change it to 100%, then this means 3 seconds of cripple per grenade throw. Additionally, up to 6 seconds of cripple from grenade barrage.You can stack this condition to pretty long durations this way and I think this is what Anet wanted to prevent.

Nope, cripple like other condition that stack in duration can only stack 5 time. Beside with enough luck that's already possible.

Which, unfortunately, now leads to the effect I was talking about: if you are using shrapnel at all, then you are using it with grenades, since these are the only explosions you can spam fast and frequent enough to get reliable results from this grandmaster trait.

That's why I tend to want to remove the random part, because without this random part other source of explosion like pistol AA, bomb kit and so on become more attractive.

And putting a doubled barrier on it like having to use explosions and then these explosions also need to crit feels a bit much restrictive again.Might just be me, tho.

I thought putting the bleeding onto grenades would therefore be the best. Especially since grenades are also already used in condition heavy builds.

The issue is more that thus you end up with 2 traits dedicated to a single kit which is wrong in itself since it reduce usability of the trait and thus build diversity. By looking for efficiency you narrow the wideness of the trait and create a gimmick (not that the gimmick isn't already there, just that you strengthen it. And gimmick aren't good for balance). The "better" move would be to somehow make it less interesting for grenade kit and more for other sources of explosion.

@Lynx.9058 said:

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Lynx.9058 said:Id just like a working auto attack for grenade kit and mortar kit

F11 -> optionCombat movementSnap Ground Target to Current Target — The ground-target marker will reposition itself to your current target's position so long as it is within range.

That's the most you can gain for grenade kit or mortar kit. Afterall they launch AoE.

@Dadnir.5038

I don't quite understand why you say that my suggestion would create 2 dedicated traits for one specific kit...My suggestion is to merge 2 traits which are already specific to grenade kit into one, then reworking the grandmaster trait shrapnel into something that has broader appeal.

So I am suggesting the absolute opposite here: to get rid of 2 dedicated grenade kit traits and at the same time remove the lesser grenade barrage, which you agree on that it should get removed.

And just removing lesser grenade barrage from grenadier without giving something back is not really an attractive option for me, since, as I said, grenadier is basically just a trait that makes grenade kit function. And traits which are required for a specific weapon to be able to perform at all are mostly not really good design. Maybe we should even go as far as making the bigger radius and faster throw velocity baseline, then replace grenadier with a different effect altogether.

Side note: Pistol AA is not an explosion.

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Lynx.9058 said:

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Lynx.9058 said:Id just like a working auto attack for grenade kit and mortar kit

One might wonder, why cant they just be projectile AoEs instead of ground targetting though. Atleast for skill 1

Like I said, I've tried the snap to target, but you still have to sit there mashing 1 repeatedly. Even when it's set to auto it wont continue to cast on its own.

I think itd be better if they change the 1 attack for grenade kit and mortar kit to a projectile ability that does area damage around the target.

Personally, I'd kinda like to see grenades going back to throwing one at a time. Which could fix the problem of Shrapnel coming from the other side by allowing it (and other explosion traits) to be balanced according to there generally being only one explosion going off at once rather than three.

Lesser Grenade Barrage could then have its power damage reduced substantially, on the basis that its real effect is triggering all those explosive traits in one go.

@draxynnic.3719 said:Personally, I'd kinda like to see grenades going back to throwing one at a time. Which could fix the problem of Shrapnel coming from the other side by allowing it (and other explosion traits) to be balanced according to there generally being only one explosion going off at once rather than three.

Lesser Grenade Barrage could then have its power damage reduced substantially, on the basis that its real effect is triggering all those explosive traits in one go.

Disagreed.

That you are throwing multiple grenades is one of the advantages of the grenade kit and also makes the kit as a whole more interesting.Without that feature, grenade kit basically just becomes a mortar kit clone.

These 2 kits are already too similar.Both kits have an auto attack scaling with power without any other benefits, both have a poison AoE, both have a chill AoE, both have a blind AoE.Only difference between them now becomes that mortar kit leaves pulsing combo fields and that grenades have a bleeding grenade, while mortar has a healing water combo field.

Are they really THAT similar, though?

Putting aside that being in the elite slot rather than a utility slot is significant in its own way, you say it yourself: mortar skills, apart from the autoattack, are all about pulsing combo fields, and are often used for support builds. Grenades, on the other hand, are more about dealing their damage and/or inflicting their conditions right away. Which does make mortar more of an area control and/or support tool, while grenade kit is a pretty straightforward area DPS option (sure, it has some debilitating conditions, but most DPS weapons do). These distinctions mean that even if they were competing for the same slot, there'd be some situations when you'd want one and some where you'd want the other.

The key point, though, is that as long as grenades continue to be thrown in threes, no trait that triggers on explosions can really be balanced for both grenades and other explosives kits unless they have an ICD or a cap (and grenades will always get to that cap much faster than any other source of explosions). Which is the balance reason why Shrapnel has ended up as an only-useful-with-grenades trait - because if it was balanced to work with, say, bombs, it'd become a bit insane when used with a kit that generates three times as many explosions.

@draxynnic.3719 said:Are they really THAT similar, though?

Putting aside that being in the elite slot rather than a utility slot is significant in its own way, you say it yourself: mortar skills, apart from the autoattack, are all about pulsing combo fields, and are often used for support builds. Grenades, on the other hand, are more about dealing their damage and/or inflicting their conditions right away. Which does make mortar more of an area control and/or support tool, while grenade kit is a pretty straightforward area DPS option (sure, it has some debilitating conditions, but most DPS weapons do). These distinctions mean that even if they were competing for the same slot, there'd be some situations when you'd want one and some where you'd want the other.

The key point, though, is that as long as grenades continue to be thrown in threes, no trait that triggers on explosions can really be balanced for both grenades and other explosives kits unless they have an ICD or a cap (and grenades will always get to that cap much faster than any other source of explosions). Which is the balance reason why Shrapnel has ended up as an only-useful-with-grenades trait - because if it was balanced to work with, say, bombs, it'd become a bit insane when used with a kit that generates three times as many explosions.

The shrapnel trait is literally the only one which needed restrictions because of the grenade kit.All other traits working with explosions are fine.

• steel packed powder applies vulnerability, which caps at 25 anyway
• short fuse has an icd of 3 seconds
• explosive temper caps at 10 stacks
• big boomer's buff lasts for 3 seconds, enough time to reapply it with other explosives

Hence why I suggested these changes here. Shrapnel basically is already a grenade specific trait and people dislike the current lesser grenade barrage, so I thought we can solve 2 problems at once here by merging shrapnel with grenadier and removing the lesser grenade barrage.

And while mortar kit leaves pulsing AoE fields, it also applies the damage and condition associated right away.The only difference between the mortar kit skills and grenade kit skills would be that grenades would deal some more damage while mortar kit skills leave combo fields.

Grenade kit having multiple explosions makes it more interesting in my opinion and also helps enforcing it's role as a primary dps kit, since it helps stacking vulnerability and explosive temper. Grenade kit is also helping condition builds with it's multi hits by making sharpshooter (33% chance to inflict bleeding on critical strikes) more reliable.

I stand by that. Taking away the multiple grenades is no option for me, it would make the kit more boring, make it even more similar to mortar kit than it already is, would weaken it's performance as a dps kit in general (you mentioned that you would want grenade barrage to get a damage nerf with this change)....I don't see any upsides to this change except that we could make shrapnel more reliable. Which wouldn't make it worth, considering what engineer would lose in return.

Actually, I was putting forward Lesser Grenade Barrage having a damage nerf - the thing that you're proposing removing altogether.

As for the rest: Well, maybe that can all be changes that will come with any such rework. Make the mortar kit's fields have continuous effects rather than just being combo fields, for instance.

But you'll note that your list of other traits all fall into the category of having an ICD (short fuse) or a cap (the other three - Big Boomer effectively having a cap of 1). With the exception of Big Boomer and Short Fuse, though, they're still much better with grenades than with other explosives. Knock grenades down to one explosion, and the effect from a single explosion from Steel Packed Powder, Explosive Temper, and Shrapnel could be doubled, making them much more attractive and useful for builds that don't use grenades. As things are, not only is there the situation with Shrapnel, but traits like SPP and Explosive Temper that ramp will do so much faster (and therefore be much more effective) with grenades. Heck, at the moment, it's pretty hard to cap Explosive Temper or build up significant Vulnerability with SPP unless you're running grenades or have extra condition duration. Grenades having so much synergy with those traits is coming at the cost of those traits having to be balanced for use with grenades, which makes them weaker than they might otherwise be able to be when used with builds that don't use grenades - which is probably a large contributing factor to the overwhelming majority of builds with Explosives having grenade kit stapled to their bar.

@draxynnic.3719 said:Actually, I was putting forward Lesser Grenade Barrage having a damage nerf - the thing that you're proposing removing altogether.

As for the rest: Well, maybe that can all be changes that will come with any such rework. Make the mortar kit's fields have continuous effects rather than just being combo fields, for instance.

But you'll note that your list of other traits all fall into the category of having an ICD (short fuse) or a cap (the other three - Big Boomer effectively having a cap of 1). With the exception of Big Boomer and Short Fuse, though, they're still much better with grenades than with other explosives. Knock grenades down to one explosion, and the effect from a single explosion from Steel Packed Powder, Explosive Temper, and Shrapnel could be doubled, making them much more attractive and useful for builds that don't use grenades. As things are, not only is there the situation with Shrapnel, but traits like SPP and Explosive Temper that ramp will do so much faster (and therefore be much more effective) with grenades. Heck, at the moment, it's pretty hard to cap Explosive Temper or build up significant Vulnerability with SPP unless you're running grenades or have extra condition duration. Grenades having so much synergy with those traits is coming at the cost of those traits having to be balanced for use with grenades, which makes them weaker than they might otherwise be able to be when used with builds that don't use grenades - which is probably a large contributing factor to the overwhelming majority of builds with Explosives having grenade kit stapled to their bar.

Overlooked the lesser part, yeah. I still feel we should remove the lesser grenade barrage entirely. It is janky, especially with the random spread of the grenades around you. It is unreliable and we all know that unreliable effects are terrible. This has been the entire reason why Anet changed all the elixirs (except elixir x.... WHEN DOES IT GET REWORKED?!) from random effects to fixed effects.

It also seems there was a misunderstanding regarding mortar kit. The combo fields have persistent pulse effects, they pulse their associated condition in the field. I just meant that the first strike also applies this condition, not just the follow up ticks. Meaning it would also apply the condition upfront, like the grenades.

Yes, the traits I mentioned have caps and icds. Hence why grenades are not problematic with them, that's the entire point.And I don't think that anet would change alot about these traits even if they made grenades just throw a single one again.

Let's look at explosive temper, for example. You mention that explosive temper could get doubled in effect with this change.How exactly doubled? There are 2 ways to achieve this here.Either they would double the ferocity bonus from this trait to 400, which I highly doubt since this would be alot for a master tier trait.Of they would half the stacks required to reach the max, meaning that one stack grants 40 ferocity with 5 stacks max, still 200 in total.

Considering that you state that stacking explosive temper with grenades is so much easier, I guess that you tend to the second approach here.I don't know if you are even actively playing engineer, but stacking this trait is not as hard as it might seem.You have to consider that you get 1 stack of explosive temper for every enemy you hit with an explosion.I am running many different builds, some just for fun. Since they added the explosive tag to electro-whirl on scrapper, it is really easy to stack explosive temper on hammer. You can hit up to 5 targets with electro-whirl and it strikes 2 times. If you are hitting 5 targets, you can literally stack explosive temper completely with one electro-whirl.Same applies for corona burst on holosmith. Or you hit multiple enemies with bombs, or mines.....

The only situation where it takes a few more seconds to reach max stacks of explosive temper is against single target enemies. Which mostly will be the case in high end PvE content against bosses. But once you stacked explosive temper, you will most likely keep up the stacks anyway, even if you are using bombs or anything.

@Kodama.6453 said:It also seems there was a misunderstanding regarding mortar kit. The combo fields have persistent pulse effects, they pulse their associated condition in the field. I just meant that the first strike also applies this condition, not just the follow up ticks. Meaning it would also apply the condition upfront, like the grenades.

Yeah, that's how I thought it worked, but I'd admit I generally don't pay a huge amount of attention to how the conditions stack after dropping a field.

I don't really think the fact that a field delivering the first condition on the first tick makes it the same as a grenade that delivers the full effect as soon as it lands. One is more oriented towards keeping the fight in (or out of) an area, while grenades respond to a moving combat by simply changing where they aim the grenades.

Yes, the traits I mentioned have caps and icds. Hence why grenades are not problematic with them, that's the entire point.And I don't think that anet would change alot about these traits even if they made grenades just throw a single one again.

Let's look at explosive temper, for example. You mention that explosive temper could get doubled in effect with this change.How exactly doubled? There are 2 ways to achieve this here.Either they would double the ferocity bonus from this trait to 400, which I highly doubt since this would be alot for a master tier trait.Of they would half the stacks required to reach the max, meaning that one stack grants 40 ferocity with 5 stacks max, still 200 in total.

Considering that you state that stacking explosive temper with grenades is so much easier, I guess that you tend to the second approach here.I don't know if you are even actively playing engineer, but stacking this trait is not as hard as it might seem.You have to consider that you get 1 stack of explosive temper for every enemy you hit with an explosion.I am running many different builds, some just for fun. Since they added the explosive tag to electro-whirl on scrapper, it is really easy to stack explosive temper on hammer. You can hit up to 5 targets with electro-whirl and it strikes 2 times. If you are hitting 5 targets, you can literally stack explosive temper completely with one electro-whirl.Same applies for corona burst on holosmith. Or you hit multiple enemies with bombs, or mines.....

The only situation where it takes a few more seconds to reach max stacks of explosive temper is against single target enemies. Which mostly will be the case in high end PvE content against bosses. But once you stacked explosive temper, you will most likely keep up the stacks anyway, even if you are using bombs or anything.

I was thinking the latter, but I would have to admit that I hadn't played with explosive temper enough to really get a feel as to how it worked.

I think my observation is still fairly accurate for SPP, though. It's one stack of Vulnerability, with a default duration of just five seconds. If you're chucking grenades three (and sometimes six) at a time, this can stack up pretty quickly. On the other end of the scale, if you're playing a build that isn't using grenades or bombs and is bringing Explosives primarily because it's the DPS traitline, then it's doing basically nothing. And that's a minor trait. Which, if you're playing solo rather than having a ton of allies around applying additional vulnerability stacks, is also possibly what you're relying on to build vulnerability stacks for Shaped Charge. Is it any wonder that builds that use Explosives that don't also use grenade kit are a clear minority?

@Lynx.9058 said:Like I said, I've tried the snap to target, but you still have to sit there mashing 1 repeatedly. Even when it's set to auto it wont continue to cast on its own.

I think itd be better if they change the 1 attack for grenade kit and mortar kit to a projectile ability that does area damage around the target.

I'd meant to comment on this as well...

One thing I think could be interesting is an option to make it so that area autoattacks just automatically throw at the target. This would not only make things like grenade and mortar kit more user-friendly, it'd also mean that some other autoattacks like Fireball can be made so that they CAN be ground-targeted if the player wishes.

The people who like the ground-targeted skillshots can have them, while the people who are fed up with having to spam 1 to use these kits can get some relief.

@draxynnic.3719 said:I was thinking the latter, but I would have to admit that I hadn't played with explosive temper enough to really get a feel as to how it worked.

I think my observation is still fairly accurate for SPP, though. It's one stack of Vulnerability, with a default duration of just five seconds. If you're chucking grenades three (and sometimes six) at a time, this can stack up pretty quickly. On the other end of the scale, if you're playing a build that isn't using grenades or bombs and is bringing Explosives primarily because it's the DPS traitline, then it's doing basically nothing. And that's a minor trait. Which, if you're playing solo rather than having a ton of allies around applying additional vulnerability stacks, is also possibly what you're relying on to build vulnerability stacks for Shaped Charge. Is it any wonder that builds that use Explosives that don't also use grenade kit are a clear minority?

What I would like to ask you: why is it a bad thing in your eyes that you can get higher stacks of vulnerability with grenades than with other kits?

Look at what grenade kit provides. It is literally just damage. It has some impedimental conditions with chill and blind, but as you say yourself, every dps weapon has some of these.Also lets keep in mind that the blind just applies a single time, you can prevent one attack with it.

Now look at the other explosive kits, bombs and mortar.Bombs provides quite alot of damage, the auto attack deals a good chunk of power damage and the fire bomb also is always used in condition damage rotations.But on top of that, bomb kit also has:

• 2 combo fields (fire and smoke), grenades lost the only combo field it had 5 years ago
• hard CC (big ol' bomb), grenades don't have any
• combo finisher (explosion from big ol' bomb), grenades don't have any
• pulsing blind (smoke bomb) against grenades single application, meaning that bombs can potentially prevent 3 attacks with smoke bomb while grenades can just blind once

We can do the same for mortar, it provides:

• 4 combo fields (poison, light, ice, water)
• combo finisher (explosion from orbital strike)
• pulsing blind (flash shell), potentially preventing 5 attacks against grenades single blind application

Mortar and bomb provide quite some utility through different means. The situational utility from mortar's combo fields alone can contribute alot already. You can use it to cleanse conditions, heal, get additional poison stacks on enemies, applying weakness on enemies, applying chill, granting allies frost aura which gives damage reduction....

Meanwhile grenades are doing exactly one thing: damage. It is a pure dps kit and provides basically nothing else.Are we really surprised that builds which are looking to optimize their damage are using the one kit in engineer's arsenal which does nothing but damage?And how I see it, the additional vulnerability from steel packed powder helps grenade kit filling it's function. If you take grenades, you want to deal damage. Increased vulnerability stacks are helping with that task.

I actually never saw someone complaining that bombs or mortar are not applying enough vulnerability with the trait. You are the first one I met so far.And I kinda doubt that Anet will improve vulnerability application even after your suggested change, because, as I said, engineer already has alot of access to vulnerability. Not just through explosives with grenades, but many other sources as well.

So I ask again: why do you think it is a bad thing that a pure damage focused kit is able to stack vulnerability higher than the other explosive kits, which have alot more utility and other benefits. And bombs are even pretty good at dealing damage, too. The kit is used alongside grenades in rifle power holo builds as well as all meta condition builds for engineer.

Mortar might not have so much damage, but damage is not the focus of that kit anyway. So it doesn't really care about vulnerability application anyway.

You've answered it already, albeit in a dismissive fashion - because while grenades are around generating 3 stacks of vulnerability per toss, that trait is never going to be buffed for the sake of other kits because they can't afford to make it even stronger with grenades. You're suggesting making Shrapnel explicitly a grenade trait, but cripple on explosives seems like something that could be kinda useful when using bomb kit, but the bleeds when using a bomb kit are never going to amount to much because Shrapnel is balanced for use with grenades.

As long as grenades get to receive triple the benefit of such traits as other kits do, those traits are going to be held back for the sake of not becoming absolutely, completely ridiculous when used with grenades.

We might disagree with the importance of that. We might disagree with the likelihood that a change to grenades will result in a change to the traits (personally, I'd only consider it in the context of coming alongside a trait rework, otherwise other alternatives like the single grenade with three concentric blasts of increasing diameter would be more appropriate). But it is an inevitable consequence that when one weapon - whether a regular weapon, kit, or some other weapon substitute - gets triple the benefit from a trait than any other option, the trait will be balanced with that weapon in mind, because it has to be.

And thus you get traits that are only useful with one kit. I mean, seriously, Shrapnel looks like it should be a good trait for bomb kit, until you look at the numbers. Extra condi damage, and cripple helps keep the enemy where you want them. But in practice, Shrapnel isn't useful for bombs... because its numbers have to be tuned for a weapon kit that can generate three times as many explosions and can do so from range.

You're looking at this and thinking "well, if it's only useful with grenades, might as well make it official". I'm looking at it and thinking "well, there's a root cause of why it's only useful with grenades, maybe it would be better to address that."

@draxynnic.3719

My point of view is also that grenade, as I repeatedly said, is a pure damage kit, unlike the other explosive kits.The higher vulnerability you get from steel packed powder helps grenades fulfill that purpose. Meanwhile I can't remember anyone except you stating that they think bombs or mortar are not applying enough vulnerability....

If you want that rework to happen, then this would need to come with major buffs to the grenade kit. Most likely to it's damage output, since this is literally all that this kit is about and all that damage will then get dealt in one instance instead of spread on 3 hits which are currently randomly distributed.

I don't know how many people might actually be happy with the thought that we would buff grenades damage and making their damage application more reliable.Just think that it makes sense that a kit that is providing nothing else but damage is able to stack alot of vulnerability, while other kits which have other upsides and alot more utility are not getting that benefit.

I am for kits having different strengths. Grenades applying steel packed powder 3 times is one of these strengths that makes the kit interesting.A trait doesn't have to synergise with everything it interacts with at the same level.

To show what I mean: The trait mass momentum pulses might as long as the scrapper has stability. Engineer's have multiple different sources for stability:

• toss elixir b
• defense field
• function gyro
• elixir u
• elixir x
• rumble
• kinetic stabilizers

Yet there is one source of stability with way stronger synergy than these other sources. It is juggernaut, which makes might last longer, grants might on it's own and also provides perma stability.We don't see mass momentum changed to have the same level of synergy with all these other stability sources like with juggernaut. Having stronger synergies is totally fine in the game and actually often intended design.

I see grenades interaction with steel packed powder as the same, it is an intended stronger synergy with that one specific kit, since this kit is about dealing damage in the first place.And most other explosive traits don't work better with grenades than with other stuff.

You're focusing on SPP to try to prove me wrong, while avoiding responding to my point that half the premise of this thread is that Shrapnel is pretty much balanced out of being useful with anything other than grenades.

Still, to refer to SPP... sure, engineer has other sources of generating vulnerability, but the usual source of any Explosives build tends to be to pack grenades in one fashion or another. Unless you're running solo, the number of vulnerability stacks you generate is often glossed over by the fact that some of the players around you will also be generating vulnerability stacks, and you probably don't see complaints about bombs or mortar "not generating enough vulnerability" because... people use grenades to build the vulnerability stacks.

Rebalancing SPP, however, would reduce some of the dominance of grenades. Sure, grenades are the DPS kit, while bombs have a bit more utility, but hey... bombs don't have 900 range. Slow projectile velocity or not, one can expect bombs to get something in return for being effectively a quasi-melee kit, whether that's more damage, more utility, more defensive skills, more control, or whatever. And, heck, if you wanted grenades to be a Designated Vulnerability Stacker, there are other ways of doing it - for example, Grenadier could be made to inflict Vulnerability as well.

Your example of synergy is a valid one, but I think it's a false equivalence since Juggernaut isn't automatically three times as strong a synergy with Mass Momentum. Mass Momentum on its own provides 20% uptime, potentially more with increased boon duration. Adding one skill to your skillbar that generates Stability such as Bulwark Gyro can push this to over 40%, and doesn't lock you into only using flamethrower. If you're willing to put more investment in, such as taking Kinetic Stabilisers or another source of stability, you can push this up further... again, without being locked into flamethrower (which is something which, at the moment, is only really worth sitting in if you're making use of all the synergies).

Another distinction is that Mass Momentum isn't a minor, so if it doesn't fit with your build, you can take something else. SPP is a minor, so if you use Explosives you're locked into it regardless of whether you can make good use of it or not. So grenades become almost required to stop it from becoming a wasted minor.

@"draxynnic.3719"

Might have to do with my strong opinion on kits. I personally dislike that literally all our kits are mixed damage, we don't have dedicated condition damage or power damage kits yet.

In my opinion, bomb kit should eventually get reworked into being a pure power based kit, while I would like to see grenades reworked into a condition focused kit. Hence why I would also like to fuse shrapnel with the grenade trait, since this trait is increasing condition damage by adding additional bleeding stacks.

But I think the equivalence with juggernaut fits actually pretty well. Mass momentum provides 40% uptime on it's own, using defense field from bulwark gyro ups that to 40%. Meanwhile taking juggernaut increasing the uptime to 100%. So how is that not "3 times as effective"? Also keep in mind that juggernaut increases might duration on top for additional synergy, which other stability sources don't.

Bulwark gyro adds 20% uptime to mass momentum. Juggernaut adds 80% uptime. So compared to other stand alone stability sources, juggernaut heavily outweights the uptime increase. You can generate the same effect like juggernaut by taking multiple stability sources, sure, but the same applies to SPP. If you take the trait that generates mines on crit, take the aim assisted rocket, take last round, take the throw mine skill (with minefield toolbelt).... then you can also increase your vulnerability output in that way. But it requires way more investment than simply taking grenades, which is the same situation like with juggernaut.

And I just can't stress enough how much I would dislike to lose the additional grenades... It is one of the things that makes grenade kit feel distinct from mortar kit for me and losing that would make them feel too much alike for my taste.

@"Kodama.6453" said:But I think the equivalence with juggernaut fits actually pretty well. Mass momentum provides 40% uptime on it's own, using defense field from bulwark gyro ups that to 40%. Meanwhile taking juggernaut increasing the uptime to 100%. So how is that not "3 times as effective"? Also keep in mind that juggernaut increases might duration on top for additional synergy, which other stability sources don't.

Two reasons:

First, because Juggernaut only provides 100% uptime on its own if you stay in Flamethrower permanently, which being a fairly mediocre kit to stick in, is not always desirable. It works, in environments where self-sufficiency is valuable, by stacking synergies of three traitlines, but at that point we're not just talking about a couple of traits and a utility slot. We're talking about pretty much the entire build being built around camping flamethrower, while grenades are just a utility slot and a single traitline.

Second, because how much uptime you can get of stability without Juggernaut for Mass Momentum caries depending on your build. There are several utility skills that can be chosen to increase stability uptime. You can take Kinetic Stabilisers, and if combined with a build with a lot of CC, that could get you a lot of uptime (Thunderclap alone with Kinetic Stabilisers is 25% uptime). I'm pretty certain that you could get 100% uptime without Juggernaut if you put together the right build.

Grenades, though, are always going to get about 3x as much benefit from Shrapnel as bombs, mortar, or holosmith with Crystal Configuration:Storm is going to get. As long as you're not reaching the vulnerability cap, they're always going to get about 3x as much benefit out of SPP. You can take traits to get additional explosions (aim-assisted rocket has an ICD of 3s, though, so that's only a roughly 25% increase while switching to grenades is a 200% increase, and Explosive Entrance is limited to dodges), you can get Quickness to increase your attack rate, but hey, you can take all of these options with grenades too. There's no getting around the fact that whatever you do with bombs, you can switch to grenades at get more than double the benefit from the traits.

By contrast, with Mass Momentum, you can set up a build without Juggernaut that achieves, if not 100% uptime of Stability, at least something well over 50%. Or, since Mass Momentum is a major trait rather than a minor, if Stability isn't going to be a focus of the build, you can choose another trait.

DO IT!!! EVERYONE AGREES GRENADES ARE TOO DAMN OP NOT TO TAKE ON ANY ENGINEER BUILD

AND OF COURSE, THEY GOT AN INDIRECT +33% DAMAGE BUFFNot to mention grenade barrage was also overlooked XD

ANET CAN U PLS BUFF EVERYTHING ELSE AND GUT GRENADES? PLS ITS FOR DIVERSITY

THX <3 BYE > @draxynnic.3719 said:

Personally, I'd kinda like to see grenades going back to throwing one at a time. Which could fix the problem of Shrapnel coming from the other side by allowing it (and other explosion traits) to be balanced according to there generally being only one explosion going off at once rather than three.

Lesser Grenade Barrage could then have its power damage reduced substantially, on the basis that its real effect is triggering all those explosive traits in one go.

ALSO THIS

It has way more RP value that way, and the ridiculous stacking of vulnerability and ferocity that grenades have compared to all other explosives (literally 300% increased) would be fixed lmfao