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How much DPS is "enough"?

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  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @uberkingkong.8041 said:
    How are you finding your dps? How do you turn it on?

    Funny thing, everybody on forums "its ok to do this amount"
    Everybody in game "kick that guy, he is the issue, look at his dps"

    There is no built-in dps meter. Players use third-party software called arcdps. And while I in no way condone players sniping at each other over dps, I haven't personally found this to be in issue in T4 fractals as long as I avoid runs that specifically ask for experienced players.

  • @Arcaniaxs.4519 said:

    @sitarskee.5738 said:
    I run t1, t2 and t3 fractals daily and people average 3-5k dps, once in 20 games there will be this 17k-ish dude. Even with this low dps, fracs up to t3 are fairly easy and fast.

    Wait untill u meet the ppl in fractal CMs doing 75k dps openings and hold 30k dps lol
    Although 17k dps is decent imo too

    Kind of confusing.
    3-5k dps is average but 17k dps is decent

    So the average player does not do decent dps then?

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @uberkingkong.8041 said:

    @Arcaniaxs.4519 said:

    @sitarskee.5738 said:
    I run t1, t2 and t3 fractals daily and people average 3-5k dps, once in 20 games there will be this 17k-ish dude. Even with this low dps, fracs up to t3 are fairly easy and fast.

    Wait untill u meet the ppl in fractal CMs doing 75k dps openings and hold 30k dps lol
    Although 17k dps is decent imo too

    Kind of confusing.
    3-5k dps is average but 17k dps is decent

    So the average player does not do decent dps then?

    I believe the point is that the disparity between experienced players running dps meta builds and inexperienced players running whatever feels good is potentially massive.

  • Arcaniaxs.4519Arcaniaxs.4519 Member ✭✭✭

    @uberkingkong.8041 said:

    @Arcaniaxs.4519 said:

    @sitarskee.5738 said:
    I run t1, t2 and t3 fractals daily and people average 3-5k dps, once in 20 games there will be this 17k-ish dude. Even with this low dps, fracs up to t3 are fairly easy and fast.

    Wait untill u meet the ppl in fractal CMs doing 75k dps openings and hold 30k dps lol
    Although 17k dps is decent imo too

    Kind of confusing.
    3-5k dps is average but 17k dps is decent

    So the average player does not do decent dps then?

    Aw no. Sry if i said it bad. I mean meta specs at full potential do alotta dmg in fractals considering the buffs u can apply on them and debuffs on the boss.
    A average player can do decent dps (if its a dps build of course). Im just saying more experienced+very efficient build(meta build) results in amazing dps. But u sure can do it however u like. Its a game anyways ppl wanna have fun with watever they like :P

  • Arcaniaxs.4519Arcaniaxs.4519 Member ✭✭✭

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @uberkingkong.8041 said:

    @Arcaniaxs.4519 said:

    @sitarskee.5738 said:
    I run t1, t2 and t3 fractals daily and people average 3-5k dps, once in 20 games there will be this 17k-ish dude. Even with this low dps, fracs up to t3 are fairly easy and fast.

    Wait untill u meet the ppl in fractal CMs doing 75k dps openings and hold 30k dps lol
    Although 17k dps is decent imo too

    Kind of confusing.
    3-5k dps is average but 17k dps is decent

    So the average player does not do decent dps then?

    I believe the point is that the disparity between experienced players running dps meta builds and inexperienced players running whatever feels good is potentially massive.

    Not very very massive but basically yes. Both ways work anyways.

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arcaniaxs.4519 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @uberkingkong.8041 said:

    @Arcaniaxs.4519 said:

    @sitarskee.5738 said:
    I run t1, t2 and t3 fractals daily and people average 3-5k dps, once in 20 games there will be this 17k-ish dude. Even with this low dps, fracs up to t3 are fairly easy and fast.

    Wait untill u meet the ppl in fractal CMs doing 75k dps openings and hold 30k dps lol
    Although 17k dps is decent imo too

    Kind of confusing.
    3-5k dps is average but 17k dps is decent

    So the average player does not do decent dps then?

    I believe the point is that the disparity between experienced players running dps meta builds and inexperienced players running whatever feels good is potentially massive.

    Not very very massive but basically yes. Both ways work anyways.

    So 1 person doing the damage of 10-15 others is not a massive damage increase?
    I think it is.

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arcaniaxs.4519 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @uberkingkong.8041 said:

    @Arcaniaxs.4519 said:

    @sitarskee.5738 said:
    I run t1, t2 and t3 fractals daily and people average 3-5k dps, once in 20 games there will be this 17k-ish dude. Even with this low dps, fracs up to t3 are fairly easy and fast.

    Wait untill u meet the ppl in fractal CMs doing 75k dps openings and hold 30k dps lol
    Although 17k dps is decent imo too

    Kind of confusing.
    3-5k dps is average but 17k dps is decent

    So the average player does not do decent dps then?

    I believe the point is that the disparity between experienced players running dps meta builds and inexperienced players running whatever feels good is potentially massive.

    Not very very massive but basically yes. Both ways work anyways.

    It depends on the player, the build, and the scenario. But even in open world I see this routinely where 2 or 3 players are responsible for more than half the damage of a full squad.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @uberkingkong.8041 said:

    @Arcaniaxs.4519 said:

    @sitarskee.5738 said:
    I run t1, t2 and t3 fractals daily and people average 3-5k dps, once in 20 games there will be this 17k-ish dude. Even with this low dps, fracs up to t3 are fairly easy and fast.

    Wait untill u meet the ppl in fractal CMs doing 75k dps openings and hold 30k dps lol
    Although 17k dps is decent imo too

    Kind of confusing.
    3-5k dps is average but 17k dps is decent

    So the average player does not do decent dps then?

    No. The average player barely breaks 10K DPS. The 3-5K is barely auto attacking.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @uberkingkong.8041 said:

    @Arcaniaxs.4519 said:

    @sitarskee.5738 said:
    I run t1, t2 and t3 fractals daily and people average 3-5k dps, once in 20 games there will be this 17k-ish dude. Even with this low dps, fracs up to t3 are fairly easy and fast.

    Wait untill u meet the ppl in fractal CMs doing 75k dps openings and hold 30k dps lol
    Although 17k dps is decent imo too

    Kind of confusing.
    3-5k dps is average but 17k dps is decent

    So the average player does not do decent dps then?

    Yes. According to the devs themselves, the the top player dps is around 10x higher than those of an average player (yes, average, not bottom tier). It is a massive gap. As a consequence, in any content where dps matters at all, you need to be doing well above the average dps.

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    No. The average player barely breaks 10K DPS. The 3-5K is barely auto attacking.

    3-5k is autoattacking range, yes, but only if you are running a meta build. An average player is not running one. If you look at a squad dps in any open world event, you can often see that, even in a full, 50-man squad, 4-5k is easily enough to put your dps in the shown top ten range.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    There was a wonderful website called GW2Raidar in the game where players uploaded their Raid logs. You could see there that the "How much dps is enough?" question really has no answer because it depends heavily on the boss.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    3-5k is autoattacking range, yes, but only if you are running a meta build. An average player is not running one. If you look at a squad dps in any open world event, you can often see that, even in a full, 50-man squad, 4-5k is easily enough to put your dps in the shown top ten range.

    To be fair, when you check a squad dps in an open world event it includes players that are barely playing the game. Is their dps low because they have a terrible build, because they don't know how to play or because they are semi-afk and hardly participate in the event?

  • LadyKitty.6120LadyKitty.6120 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 31, 2020

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @uberkingkong.8041 said:

    @Arcaniaxs.4519 said:

    @sitarskee.5738 said:
    I run t1, t2 and t3 fractals daily and people average 3-5k dps, once in 20 games there will be this 17k-ish dude. Even with this low dps, fracs up to t3 are fairly easy and fast.

    Wait untill u meet the ppl in fractal CMs doing 75k dps openings and hold 30k dps lol
    Although 17k dps is decent imo too

    Kind of confusing.
    3-5k dps is average but 17k dps is decent

    So the average player does not do decent dps then?

    Yes. According to the devs themselves, the the top player dps is around 10x higher than those of an average player (yes, average, not bottom tier). It is a massive gap. As a consequence, in any content where dps matters at all, you need to be doing well above the average dps.

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    No. The average player barely breaks 10K DPS. The 3-5K is barely auto attacking.

    3-5k is autoattacking range, yes, but only if you are running a meta build. An average player is not running one. If you look at a squad dps in any open world event, you can often see that, even in a full, 50-man squad, 4-5k is easily enough to put your dps in the shown top ten range.

    Heh, looks like people haven't actually tested auto-attacks much. But Kitty did some auto-attack benching 2 years ago and here's to give some clue about what some ascended geared builds did with pure 11111 (and we've powercrept 15% since then) : https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DhydH7lgZWUtywqmRK0VecutWTlvZ27fQufl1u-dgOw/edit?usp=drivesdk
    E: Guess Kitty could make updated ones.

    It's Kitty. The young lady who streams and records videos playing various (non-)metabuilds. Raid/fractal videos at youtube.com/LadyKitty, Kittymarks test results at youtube.com/Kittymarks and tinyurl.com/Kittymarks.

  • @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @uberkingkong.8041 said:
    How are you finding your dps? How do you turn it on?

    Funny thing, everybody on forums "its ok to do this amount"
    Everybody in game "kick that guy, he is the issue, look at his dps"

    There is no built-in dps meter. Players use third-party software called arcdps. And while I in no way condone players sniping at each other over dps, I haven't personally found this to be in issue in T4 fractals as long as I avoid runs that specifically ask for experienced players.

    2k-5k is enough anyone saying otherwise is toxic( not uncommon thinking) just play the build you like dont need to listen to anyone forcing you to play something you dont want to

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @LadyKitty.6120 said:
    Heh, looks like people haven't actually tested auto-attacks much. But Kitty did some auto-attack benching 2 years ago and here's to give some clue about what some ascended geared builds did with pure 11111 (and we've powercrept 15% since then) : https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DhydH7lgZWUtywqmRK0VecutWTlvZ27fQufl1u-dgOw/edit?usp=drivesdk
    E: Guess Kitty could make updated ones.

    That's some very exciting information, it's good to have actual data in discussions like this because everyone makes assumptions and posts random, unsupported claims. If I read that correctly (even without the power creep) and comparing your AA results with the current Snowcrows results, simply auto-attacking with a meta build provides about half the dps of using full rotations on a lot of builds. Which in most cases, even on the hardest Raid bosses, is more than enough to beat them, since with the old GW2Raidar information, teams succeeded with 1/4th the top DPS.

    That's some interesting food for thought. It both shows the really low DPS required to beat bosses and at the same time how horrible this community is at playing this game if they can barely do 25% of the damage you can do just by auto-attacking!

  • @Noodle Ant.1605 said:
    I just wanted to comment here to ask how would you determine this if you had a little bit of latency/ping? (let’s just say in the 300-400ms range)

    Just getting up to 80% of a benchmark is actually a struggle (save for the ping-friendly ones, though it’s unclear which specs fall under this category anymore), and I don’t think would be appropriate to assume that other similarly affected people would be able to achieve this normally (i.e. people who don’t mash buttons to queue skills). However, I seem to be keeping up more than OK with a lot of other people I see, but I don’t know or can’t see how benchmark % translates in this case.

    Pretty certain you can still achieve 80% bench on most things with that ping. However in some actual fights it might be difficult due to being impacted by mechanics etc. I play with 70-150 ms (~100 average with spikes let's say), and I'd say 80% should be doable with 300. Better if you can fix it ofc.

  • Noodle Ant.1605Noodle Ant.1605 Member ✭✭✭

    @Antioche.7034 said:

    @Noodle Ant.1605 said:
    I just wanted to comment here to ask how would you determine this if you had a little bit of latency/ping? (let’s just say in the 300-400ms range)

    Just getting up to 80% of a benchmark is actually a struggle (save for the ping-friendly ones, though it’s unclear which specs fall under this category anymore), and I don’t think would be appropriate to assume that other similarly affected people would be able to achieve this normally (i.e. people who don’t mash buttons to queue skills). However, I seem to be keeping up more than OK with a lot of other people I see, but I don’t know or can’t see how benchmark % translates in this case.

    Pretty certain you can still achieve 80% bench on most things with that ping. However in some actual fights it might be difficult due to being impacted by mechanics etc. I play with 70-150 ms (~100 average with spikes let's say), and I'd say 80% should be doable with 300. Better if you can fix it ofc.

    I feel like 80% is within the upper limit (you could probably push up to 90% with ‘ping-friendly’ specs but then again, we don’t know what they are). It’s doable, but when people are claiming that 80% is what should be achieved, it becomes a bit disingenuous, no? Perhaps a better question to ask is: if I know that I suffer from this problem (geographical location is not something I can easily fix), is it acceptable for me to aim for a lower standard?

    I’m guess fortunate that I’m able to reach 80% myself, but that ‘80%’ for someone else with a similar problem could possibly look like 65-70%, which otherwise I feel many people here would consider ‘not enough’.

    Currently meme’ing on core mesmer for PvE content.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 31, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    There was a wonderful website called GW2Raidar in the game where players uploaded their Raid logs. You could see there that the "How much dps is enough?" question really has no answer because it depends heavily on the boss.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    3-5k is autoattacking range, yes, but only if you are running a meta build. An average player is not running one. If you look at a squad dps in any open world event, you can often see that, even in a full, 50-man squad, 4-5k is easily enough to put your dps in the shown top ten range.

    To be fair, when you check a squad dps in an open world event it includes players that are barely playing the game. Is their dps low because they have a terrible build, because they don't know how to play or because they are semi-afk and hardly participate in the event?

    I know how high was my damage when i was still running my original "build", in times before HoT. I knew that the build i had carefully made for myself would not have a top tier dps - it was a bunker build after all. I was completely unaware, though, how low the actual dps was before i installed Arc for the first time and checked it out. When i saw the actual numbers, it was the first time i became aware how high the dps gap actually is.

    Frankly, in open world situation, so, without access to the full complement of boons, 4k would be at the upper tier of what i might have been able to reach with that build. Now, consider someone that didn't even bother to think about their build at all. They might do even worse than that. So, i am quite sure that a lot of the 3-4k players on that squad dps list aren't actually semi-afk, and possibly might even truly believe they are the ones contributing a lot.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • LadyKitty.6120LadyKitty.6120 Member ✭✭✭

    So, Kitty started her auto-attack benchmark project and she's now got power rev and power thief covered in full (though ofc she's wearing full ascended with runes and stuff but still gives some idea...): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1jWo6tEifUD6iF1RmBX3LZ7VJJ0szK9XWk2BfL0YPIY8/

    And ofc if anyone feels like Kitty's cheating or something, she streamed most of testing this far and they're watchable to see the exact test setup and stuff.

    It's Kitty. The young lady who streams and records videos playing various (non-)metabuilds. Raid/fractal videos at youtube.com/LadyKitty, Kittymarks test results at youtube.com/Kittymarks and tinyurl.com/Kittymarks.

  • Quick question all, and forgive my complete ignorance as I’ve never used a dps meter before. When you say dps, that does mean ‘damage per second’ right? If so, some folks can really do 35k damage each second?

    As a follow-up, what is decent mesmer dps?

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Day Trooper.3605 said:
    Quick question all, and forgive my complete ignorance as I’ve never used a dps meter before. When you say dps, that does mean ‘damage per second’ right? If so, some folks can really do 35k damage each second?

    As a follow-up, what is decent mesmer dps?

    Yes, although that is either a short burst, from cleave damage, or with group buffs. Still, you can hit some pretty decent numbers solo with the right build, too. My open world build can stack burning to the point it ticks for 20-25k per second, sometimes even breaking 30k peak! That's solo single-target, so with group buffs I can go higher (e.g. hit 40k peak on Subject 6 while doing my fractal recs a little bit ago).

  • Honestly, more than the banner slave, quickbrand/stm chrono is what i aim for.

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Day Trooper.3605 said:
    Quick question all, and forgive my complete ignorance as I’ve never used a dps meter before. When you say dps, that does mean ‘damage per second’ right? If so, some folks can really do 35k damage each second?

    As a follow-up, what is decent mesmer dps?

    Yes 35k each second over a 2min fight. Much higher in shorter fights. In fact some classes can have 80-140k phase dps in fractals. Thats how you get your 3sec phases.
    Good chronomancer dps would be 39k+ on golem while decent would be 34k+. Condi mirage needs confusion to do damage so you cant really test the dps on golem. Average confusion stacks matter there.

  • @Noodle Ant.1605 said:

    @Antioche.7034 said:

    @Noodle Ant.1605 said:
    I just wanted to comment here to ask how would you determine this if you had a little bit of latency/ping? (let’s just say in the 300-400ms range)

    Just getting up to 80% of a benchmark is actually a struggle (save for the ping-friendly ones, though it’s unclear which specs fall under this category anymore), and I don’t think would be appropriate to assume that other similarly affected people would be able to achieve this normally (i.e. people who don’t mash buttons to queue skills). However, I seem to be keeping up more than OK with a lot of other people I see, but I don’t know or can’t see how benchmark % translates in this case.

    Pretty certain you can still achieve 80% bench on most things with that ping. However in some actual fights it might be difficult due to being impacted by mechanics etc. I play with 70-150 ms (~100 average with spikes let's say), and I'd say 80% should be doable with 300. Better if you can fix it ofc.

    I feel like 80% is within the upper limit (you could probably push up to 90% with ‘ping-friendly’ specs but then again, we don’t know what they are). It’s doable, but when people are claiming that 80% is what should be achieved, it becomes a bit disingenuous, no? Perhaps a better question to ask is: if I know that I suffer from this problem (geographical location is not something I can easily fix), is it acceptable for me to aim for a lower standard?

    I’m guess fortunate that I’m able to reach 80% myself, but that ‘80%’ for someone else with a similar problem could possibly look like 65-70%, which otherwise I feel many people here would consider ‘not enough’.

    With >20 FPS and <200 ms ping, I think you should be able to achieve 80% on pretty much all the specs. Of course if you are playing with 5-10 FPS or >500 ms you'll have troubles, but at that point you'll pretty much be weighting your group down regardless of DPS, not to mention how tilting it must be to play in such conditions.

    All of this is kinda out-of-thread aswell I suppose.

  • @Laila Lightness.8742 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @uberkingkong.8041 said:
    How are you finding your dps? How do you turn it on?

    Funny thing, everybody on forums "its ok to do this amount"
    Everybody in game "kick that guy, he is the issue, look at his dps"

    There is no built-in dps meter. Players use third-party software called arcdps. And while I in no way condone players sniping at each other over dps, I haven't personally found this to be in issue in T4 fractals as long as I avoid runs that specifically ask for experienced players.

    2k-5k is enough anyone saying otherwise is toxic( not uncommon thinking) just play the build you like dont need to listen to anyone forcing you to play something you dont want to

    Yes, if you want to spend 20 hours doing a raid fullclear and three hours doing CMs + T4s + Recs in fractals. And probably one or two hours for strikes. Have fun. Do whatever you want, aslong as you stay out of groups that are asking for experience or efforts, thank you. If you join such groups, yes, you do need to listen, and you are the one being toxic by imposing your game standards to the group.

  • @Antioche.7034 said:

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @uberkingkong.8041 said:
    How are you finding your dps? How do you turn it on?

    Funny thing, everybody on forums "its ok to do this amount"
    Everybody in game "kick that guy, he is the issue, look at his dps"

    There is no built-in dps meter. Players use third-party software called arcdps. And while I in no way condone players sniping at each other over dps, I haven't personally found this to be in issue in T4 fractals as long as I avoid runs that specifically ask for experienced players.

    2k-5k is enough anyone saying otherwise is toxic( not uncommon thinking) just play the build you like dont need to listen to anyone forcing you to play something you dont want to

    Yes, if you want to spend 20 hours doing a raid fullclear and three hours doing CMs + T4s + Recs in fractals. And probably one or two hours for strikes. Have fun. Do whatever you want, aslong as you stay out of groups that are asking for experience or efforts, thank you. If you join such groups, yes, you do need to listen, and you are the one being toxic by imposing your game standards to the group.

    Toxicity aside, coordinating the right strategy is important and that strategy changes based in large part upon the DPS output of the group. I had a group the other day where we wiped a few times on Subject 6 on T4 because there was confusion about which strategy we were using (And some of it was me! Sorry, guys!). Once we were on the same page, however, it was no problem. Subject 6 is a good example of a fight where dps matters and your strategy changes depending upon that. I imagine this would be a very difficult (maybe even impossible?) fight if your damage dealers only bring 2-5k dps to the fight.

    Still, that doesn't mean there isn't room to go off the beaten path with your build. On that T4 Subject 6 kill my group were basically using a meta comp: healbrand, alacren, banner zerker, with power holo as the other dps. But I like to play the way I like to play as long as it isn't causing problems for the group, so I just ran my open world build which is sword/focus fire/arcane weaver with dire stats. We burned the boss in 15 seconds, killing it well before any oozes could come near. Damage breakdown was holo 37.8k, me at 32.5k, banner zerker at 28.1k. For reference, even the healer did 4.3k. As I said, the bigger problem was me botching up the strategy!

    So, I think I have to agree with Antioche.7034 here, but I also think it's possible to play the way you want to play. You just need to be courteous of others. That means not just being polite in word, but also considering the reasonable expectations of others. If you can only manage 5k dps in a fractal, you really shouldn't be joining pickup groups for T4 fractals as dps. It's inconsiderate.

  • ASP.8093ASP.8093 Member ✭✭✭

    @Day Trooper.3605 said:
    Quick question all, and forgive my complete ignorance as I’ve never used a dps meter before. When you say dps, that does mean ‘damage per second’ right? If so, some folks can really do 35k damage each second?

    As a follow-up, what is decent mesmer dps?

    Note that when people say "35k dps," they mean on the test golem with all the boons and conditions applied to it (trying to simulate a full party with optimal role divisions and support). Set those toggles correctly before you go "hmm, why am I only doing 12k???"

    Watch a benchmark video and it should hopefully be clearer:

    (The test golem will tell you your game-calculated DPS every few seconds, so an external monitor like ArcDPS is not required.)

  • @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @Antioche.7034 said:

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @uberkingkong.8041 said:
    How are you finding your dps? How do you turn it on?

    Funny thing, everybody on forums "its ok to do this amount"
    Everybody in game "kick that guy, he is the issue, look at his dps"

    There is no built-in dps meter. Players use third-party software called arcdps. And while I in no way condone players sniping at each other over dps, I haven't personally found this to be in issue in T4 fractals as long as I avoid runs that specifically ask for experienced players.

    2k-5k is enough anyone saying otherwise is toxic( not uncommon thinking) just play the build you like dont need to listen to anyone forcing you to play something you dont want to

    Yes, if you want to spend 20 hours doing a raid fullclear and three hours doing CMs + T4s + Recs in fractals. And probably one or two hours for strikes. Have fun. Do whatever you want, aslong as you stay out of groups that are asking for experience or efforts, thank you. If you join such groups, yes, you do need to listen, and you are the one being toxic by imposing your game standards to the group.

    Toxicity aside, coordinating the right strategy is important and that strategy changes based in large part upon the DPS output of the group. I had a group the other day where we wiped a few times on Subject 6 on T4 because there was confusion about which strategy we were using (And some of it was me! Sorry, guys!). Once we were on the same page, however, it was no problem. Subject 6 is a good example of a fight where dps matters and your strategy changes depending upon that. I imagine this would be a very difficult (maybe even impossible?) fight if your damage dealers only bring 2-5k dps to the fight.

    Still, that doesn't mean there isn't room to go off the beaten path with your build. On that T4 Subject 6 kill my group were basically using a meta comp: healbrand, alacren, banner zerker, with power holo as the other dps. But I like to play the way I like to play as long as it isn't causing problems for the group, so I just ran my open world build which is sword/focus fire/arcane weaver with dire stats. We burned the boss in 15 seconds, killing it well before any oozes could come near. Damage breakdown was holo 37.8k, me at 32.5k, banner zerker at 28.1k. For reference, even the healer did 4.3k. As I said, the bigger problem was me botching up the strategy!

    So, I think I have to agree with Antioche.7034 here, but I also think it's possible to play the way you want to play. You just need to be courteous of others. That means not just being polite in word, but also considering the reasonable expectations of others. If you can only manage 5k dps in a fractal, you really shouldn't be joining pickup groups for T4 fractals as dps. It's inconsiderate.

    I completly agree with your more developed post. You can absolutely play your own DPS build aslong as you are not joining very high-end groups (AKA 300+Kp fractal groups, 100+Kp raid groups etc) where people want specifically top DPS etc or specific classes, or doing incredibly suboptimal DPS/performance.

    What most people mean by 'I wish to play my own build' is 'I don't want to make efforts but still beat the content easely'. If your own builds performs really decently (Idk, 80% of the meta ones or something), you'll have absolutely no troubles in most groups and almost nobody will flame you. If it does 10-30% of the meta DPS build, that's not okay at all, and you should join groups composed of other people playing this kind of build.

    Basically, the only important thing in LFG is to joins group you do meet the requirements for. All the same, if you are one of the top players and head into a random group, you should be expecting people to not be up to your standards, and thus you should be fine with their level.

  • Noodle Ant.1605Noodle Ant.1605 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 1, 2020

    @Antioche.7034 said:

    @Noodle Ant.1605 said:

    @Antioche.7034 said:

    @Noodle Ant.1605 said:
    I just wanted to comment here to ask how would you determine this if you had a little bit of latency/ping? (let’s just say in the 300-400ms range)

    Just getting up to 80% of a benchmark is actually a struggle (save for the ping-friendly ones, though it’s unclear which specs fall under this category anymore), and I don’t think would be appropriate to assume that other similarly affected people would be able to achieve this normally (i.e. people who don’t mash buttons to queue skills). However, I seem to be keeping up more than OK with a lot of other people I see, but I don’t know or can’t see how benchmark % translates in this case.

    Pretty certain you can still achieve 80% bench on most things with that ping. However in some actual fights it might be difficult due to being impacted by mechanics etc. I play with 70-150 ms (~100 average with spikes let's say), and I'd say 80% should be doable with 300. Better if you can fix it ofc.

    I feel like 80% is within the upper limit (you could probably push up to 90% with ‘ping-friendly’ specs but then again, we don’t know what they are). It’s doable, but when people are claiming that 80% is what should be achieved, it becomes a bit disingenuous, no? Perhaps a better question to ask is: if I know that I suffer from this problem (geographical location is not something I can easily fix), is it acceptable for me to aim for a lower standard?

    I’m guess fortunate that I’m able to reach 80% myself, but that ‘80%’ for someone else with a similar problem could possibly look like 65-70%, which otherwise I feel many people here would consider ‘not enough’.

    With >20 FPS and <200 ms ping, I think you should be able to achieve 80% on pretty much all the specs. Of course if you are playing with 5-10 FPS or >500 ms you'll have troubles, but at that point you'll pretty much be weighting your group down regardless of DPS, not to mention how tilting it must be to play in such conditions.

    All of this is kinda out-of-thread aswell I suppose.

    Well you have objective goals such as minimum amount of dps to avoid this mechanic, or clear boss before enrage timer, or basically for x to happen.

    Everything else is kind of subjective or just ‘depends’, such as this 80% benchmark requirement where I guess anyone could stretch or make exceptions if they really wanted to, so long as they keep up with the group or something like that.

    Edit: players who play with >200 ping have likely adapted to such conditions (dodging early is a common example) so it isn’t as bad as it seems. Optimal performance however, is impacted and so we won’t be able to perform as well as those with <200 and especially those <50. We are still able to pump out heals and fart boons as well as any other player, as there’s an actual limit to that.

    Currently meme’ing on core mesmer for PvE content.

  • @Antioche.7034 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @Antioche.7034 said:

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @uberkingkong.8041 said:
    How are you finding your dps? How do you turn it on?

    Funny thing, everybody on forums "its ok to do this amount"
    Everybody in game "kick that guy, he is the issue, look at his dps"

    There is no built-in dps meter. Players use third-party software called arcdps. And while I in no way condone players sniping at each other over dps, I haven't personally found this to be in issue in T4 fractals as long as I avoid runs that specifically ask for experienced players.

    2k-5k is enough anyone saying otherwise is toxic( not uncommon thinking) just play the build you like dont need to listen to anyone forcing you to play something you dont want to

    Yes, if you want to spend 20 hours doing a raid fullclear and three hours doing CMs + T4s + Recs in fractals. And probably one or two hours for strikes. Have fun. Do whatever you want, aslong as you stay out of groups that are asking for experience or efforts, thank you. If you join such groups, yes, you do need to listen, and you are the one being toxic by imposing your game standards to the group.

    Toxicity aside, coordinating the right strategy is important and that strategy changes based in large part upon the DPS output of the group. I had a group the other day where we wiped a few times on Subject 6 on T4 because there was confusion about which strategy we were using (And some of it was me! Sorry, guys!). Once we were on the same page, however, it was no problem. Subject 6 is a good example of a fight where dps matters and your strategy changes depending upon that. I imagine this would be a very difficult (maybe even impossible?) fight if your damage dealers only bring 2-5k dps to the fight.

    Still, that doesn't mean there isn't room to go off the beaten path with your build. On that T4 Subject 6 kill my group were basically using a meta comp: healbrand, alacren, banner zerker, with power holo as the other dps. But I like to play the way I like to play as long as it isn't causing problems for the group, so I just ran my open world build which is sword/focus fire/arcane weaver with dire stats. We burned the boss in 15 seconds, killing it well before any oozes could come near. Damage breakdown was holo 37.8k, me at 32.5k, banner zerker at 28.1k. For reference, even the healer did 4.3k. As I said, the bigger problem was me botching up the strategy!

    So, I think I have to agree with Antioche.7034 here, but I also think it's possible to play the way you want to play. You just need to be courteous of others. That means not just being polite in word, but also considering the reasonable expectations of others. If you can only manage 5k dps in a fractal, you really shouldn't be joining pickup groups for T4 fractals as dps. It's inconsiderate.

    I completly agree with your more developed post. You can absolutely play your own DPS build aslong as you are not joining very high-end groups (AKA 300+Kp fractal groups, 100+Kp raid groups etc) where people want specifically top DPS etc or specific classes, or doing incredibly suboptimal DPS/performance.

    What most people mean by 'I wish to play my own build' is 'I don't want to make efforts but still beat the content easely'. If your own builds performs really decently (Idk, 80% of the meta ones or something), you'll have absolutely no troubles in most groups and almost nobody will flame you. If it does 10-30% of the meta DPS build, that's not okay at all, and you should join groups composed of other people playing this kind of build.

    Basically, the only important thing in LFG is to joins group you do meet the requirements for. All the same, if you are one of the top players and head into a random group, you should be expecting people to not be up to your standards, and thus you should be fine with their level.

    That pretty much summarises the basic rules to follow when joining random groups.

    As experienced player who knows most bosses inside out, Kitty's pretty much set herself a few rules to follow:
    1. Never join super-exp clear group on build that Kitty's benched under 28k dps.
    2. Always use a build that benches above 20k if playing pure dps. (if using proper gears, Kitty very rarely benches below 20k unless the build is like "pure power weapon with viper's stats". Even rifle warrior benches above that.)
    3. If playing off-meta support, bring as close the stuffs a meta support does as you possible can and compensate some other way if you lack something (for ex. scepter+warhorn auramancer is guaranteed perma-boons for 10 and better heals at the cost of losing spirits compared to druid). Healer should always bring boons unless they're otherwise 100% guaranteedly covered by other healer/dpsers. Low dps should also compensate with increased utility.
    5. No bad memes at high dps check bosses (like Xera mid strat, KC and Qadim). The more mech-related movement there is, the more memeing is allowed (since Kitty's executing the mechs very purely usually).

    Obviously there's a big big difference Kitty and new raiders when it comes to skill and gears as Kitty's around 2000 raid kills now and she always uses ascended gears (though rune choices are sometimes quite memeful as Kitty's taken a liking to golemancer runes on asuras lately).
    And as such, Kitty kinda strongly recommends that new raiders use builds that they can do close to or over 20k+ dps at golem IN THEIR CURRENT GEARS (SC settings), no matter what they're wearing, so they can somewhat carry themselves even when getting ported and stuff (which lowers that 20k to 6-8k usually for new players). And though people obviously like to say "metametameta!", Kitty personally kinda recommends simplifying the gameplay and using some safeguards when learning bosses so the newbies can actually looks around during cooldowns instead of constantly looking at skillbar and figuring how to get back into meta skill loop after getting interrupted. ('Cause #1 DPS loss is getting interrupted and NOT knowing how to adapt which confuses and messes new raiders usually).

    As such, some builds Kitty personally recommends are power rene (Battle Scars on power rene is pretty OP heals, js.), condi shortbow-only rene (eeezy but pain to gear), kitless holosmith (relatively simple super-dps), kitless hammer scrapper (literal godmode), power banner tactics PS berserker (Mending Might heals omnom), power staff DD with Staff Mastery and Invigorating Precision (spam 2222 and Fist Flurry, no need to evade even), condi firebrand (blox), power hammer DH (literal 111111 and utilities), power tempest (Fresh Air, super-simpele), condi mirage (pain to gear, like mesmers always are), greatsword-only reaper and condi scourge. And ofc condi shortbow-only soulbeast which is super-OP at any mechanical boss.
    All the builds mentioned above are relatively easy to play and have decent dps combined with good utility and survivability without compromising performance even if playing less-than-optimally in not-so-exp groups with bad healers. It should also be easily possible to breach 20k dps at golem on any of those if gears have proper stats (as Kitty fairly often sees new raiders with random mixmash of stats, traits and weapon type with 0 synergy and she's been correcting them the best she can on the spot). And if less experienced raiders played those builds more, pug raiding might actually have better success rate.

    It's Kitty. The young lady who streams and records videos playing various (non-)metabuilds. Raid/fractal videos at youtube.com/LadyKitty, Kittymarks test results at youtube.com/Kittymarks and tinyurl.com/Kittymarks.

  • @Akin Kudzu Tin.4356 said:
    This thread should be called "whats the bare minimum i have to do?".
    Dont know how some people here are happy with pure mediocrity.

    I get it, some wanna have fun and turn off their brains, however we're talking about GROUP content.
    Cant imagine anybody having fun carrying people who cant perform their roles properly.
    Lets be honest: If the easiest mmo (->gw2) on the market is to hard for ya, you're either kitten bad or lazy as hell.

    A healthy person (not including disorders which affect visuality or reaction time) must be able to do ez 70% of the benchmark
    e.g. DH gs/scepter 33k -> 23k (70%). Investing less than 1h for training rotation at the golem. Done.

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @knite.1542 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    Someone even said raids can be beaten in masterwork gear.. that I found especially amusing lol, would love to see a video on that XD

    That was great, thanks for sharing it XD

    Just shows the guild Lucky Noobs who have won the Finals ERP (Elitist Raiding Party). Doesnt mean anybody can wear masterwork gear and hope to kill a boss.
    Casuals would wipe a 1000 times before even phasing the boss.

    @Shiyo.3578 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:
    I was just curious what people who regularly run various organized PvE content successfully consider reasonable benchmarks in various contexts? Obviously, there are the places like snowcrows you can see the ceiling, but what if we're just talking ordinary players who can get the job done but aren't setting records. What sort of range would you say you look for in a DPS class in raids, fractals, strikes?

    5-10k per player tbh

    Hey wanna know a secret? I'll tell ya. 5k dps is an auto attack chain on any power build with boons.
    Imagine your dps squad just auto attacking, hilarious.
    How dense can you be

    If they are auto attacking you would have no boons. kitten are you talking about?

  • @LadyKitty.6120 said:
    So, Kitty started her auto-attack benchmark project and she's now got power rev and power thief covered in full (though ofc she's wearing full ascended with runes and stuff but still gives some idea...): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1jWo6tEifUD6iF1RmBX3LZ7VJJ0szK9XWk2BfL0YPIY8/

    And ofc if anyone feels like Kitty's cheating or something, she streamed most of testing this far and they're watchable to see the exact test setup and stuff.

    Are those benchmarks with no external boons?

  • @gousgou.5438 said:

    @LadyKitty.6120 said:
    So, Kitty started her auto-attack benchmark project and she's now got power rev and power thief covered in full (though ofc she's wearing full ascended with runes and stuff but still gives some idea...): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1jWo6tEifUD6iF1RmBX3LZ7VJJ0szK9XWk2BfL0YPIY8/

    And ofc if anyone feels like Kitty's cheating or something, she streamed most of testing this far and they're watchable to see the exact test setup and stuff.

    Are those benchmarks with no external boons?

    With SC's raid boons since the basic set of boons is usually present in any instanced squad content with slight variations. No external boons would imply being completely alone and in such case, autoattacking without boons is irrelevant as 111111 just gets you killed and is so extremely ineffective that Kitty finds 0 point in showing how much damage that'd do. And the discussion was about "even xxxxxx does xxxx dps just by auto-attacking and somehow people do less than that by skillspam". Kitty's simply providing numbers on **what a build in optimized gears would do in raid setting by purely auto-attacking. **

    And now that Kitty thinks about it, she's actually sort of done personal autoattack challenge motes on druid and funnily she's been outhealing/booning 99% of druids without weapon skills or by using warhorn-only.

    It's Kitty. The young lady who streams and records videos playing various (non-)metabuilds. Raid/fractal videos at youtube.com/LadyKitty, Kittymarks test results at youtube.com/Kittymarks and tinyurl.com/Kittymarks.

  • I dont want to rely on others for boons

  • LadyKitty.6120LadyKitty.6120 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 2, 2020

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:
    I dont want to rely on others for boons

    Well, you can always make a build that brings its own might and fury at the cost of potential dps but when it comes to quickness and especially alacrity, you don't have much choice about it unless you happen to play the boonbot (and like everyone knows, FB, chrono and renegade have monopoly on those boons) and usually the way to get full quickness+alacrity provides that for others, too, due to those boon skills being mostly AoE. Even then you need to make big enough compromises that you might be better off not trying to get anything (except might and fury) for yourself unless you indeed intend to play a boonbot. But if you create a fully self-supplied dps, you're just simply pointlessly nerfing yourself in squad content if there's any booners present. T4 fractals also used to be B.Y.O.B. but these days people just run a healer with boons for much better efficiency. (and due to nastier instabs than before+much lower skill level than people used to have in T4 so they need a carry now)

    In open-world, bringing your own boons as dps-esque build is usually a good idea, but squad content is whole another story. There's a good reason why they have separate builds, just like the difference between roamer and zerger in WvW.

    It's Kitty. The young lady who streams and records videos playing various (non-)metabuilds. Raid/fractal videos at youtube.com/LadyKitty, Kittymarks test results at youtube.com/Kittymarks and tinyurl.com/Kittymarks.

  • Matze.8429Matze.8429 Member ✭✭
    edited September 4, 2020

    The one and only i can say its never enough. More dps helps to compensate other ppl higher dps have also an higher kill potential. So if u want to carry yourself go to the Golem train aslong as u need to get muscle memory for your rotation. Read a short guide about mechanics of the bosses you Plan to kill there is no number which is enough But as i said you carrry other aswell with good dps. Its alot easier to carry one than to carry more so dont be the worst of the squad. And i know ill get a answers i dont want to Read But maybe i reached you 😄