Can raids be completed without meta builds? — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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Can raids be completed without meta builds?

chrispy.7182chrispy.7182 Member ✭✭

I am fully aware that meta builds make raid clears quicker and more efficient.
But I just want to know, is it possible to complete raid wings without having all meta builds, as long as you have 2 healers + tank and **As long as the damage is good enough **

Letting people run their own builds will obviously mean that there would potentially be a lot of quickness and alacrity downtime on the group. Is it absolutely necessary that a group has a boon chrono to complete the raids? Is it it possible without one? as long as someone played a tanking roll.

Comments

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @chrispy.7182 said:
    I am fully aware that meta builds make raid clears quicker and more efficient.
    But I just want to know, is it possible to complete raid wings without having all meta builds, as long as you have 2 healers + tank and **As long as the damage is good enough **

    Letting people run their own builds will obviously mean that there would potentially be a lot of quickness and alacrity downtime on the group. Is it absolutely necessary that a group has a boon chrono to complete the raids? Is it it possible without one? as long as someone played a tanking roll.

    Its not needed no but it will limit the nr of misstakes people are allowed to do since you lack critical boons like alacrity and/or quickness uptime.
    Unless you go 2 quickness firebrand and a alacri renegade that is.

  • Fenella.2634Fenella.2634 Member ✭✭✭

    Of course it's possible. Meta builds are usually designed for speedrun groups, so for simply clearing a raid, there is some room for improvisation.
    As long as you've got the essential mechanics covered and your group does enough DPS to avoid Enrage, you can play around with roles and classes.

    What works and what doesn't depends on the boss, though.

  • Arcaniaxs.4519Arcaniaxs.4519 Member ✭✭✭

    2healers+tank+enough dmg results in success most of the time if u dont fail mechanics

  • LadyKitty.6120LadyKitty.6120 Member ✭✭✭

    Meta totally isn't needed though it makes kills faster which helps avoid dying to extra mech hits since people want to maximize dps to minimize mechanics (aka. they don't know how to actually do the mechs well and don't bother learning either). And for less skilled groups, speedclear-esque meta comps are actually less guaranteed to kill the bosses compared using safer comps with slightly lower dps.
    Healrene+Illusionary Inspiration 10-quick heal chrono+power ps mightbot banner berserker+7dpsers (power scrappers, power IP daredevils, power renegades, trailblazer's tormenting-rune mirages/renes, trailblazer's BM scourge...) is pretty much the safest comp available with all boons covered but people literally never use it despite it actually being faster at clearing wings with not-100%-certainly experienced groups. And if you stack power scrappers, superspeed makes transitions between bosses a lot faster (and imagine Glenna with perma-superspeed...) and that 7th dps slot covers a bit for builds' lower dps potential. Even for stuff like Xera tanking, Kitty's actually found power scrapper, PS warr and trailblazer's scourge extremely tanky and they're way less vulnerable to that killing Blurred Frenzy's confusion than likes of dps-esque tank chrono or druid.

    But good luck convincing people about how effective that comp truly is. Many players just wanna be pro and rather fail a dozen times than admit they're not in top 1% and use the safe strat to one-shot.

    It's Kitty. The young lady who streams and records videos playing various (non-)metabuilds. Raid/fractal videos at youtube.com/LadyKitty, Kittymarks test results at youtube.com/Kittymarks and tinyurl.com/Kittymarks.

  • There was a time when Mystic Builds were a thing.
    People rolled random traitlines, skills, weapons and stats. Then they would try to kill bosses with that setup. And a lot of the time it was completly fine given that you would know how to deal with the mechanics.

    So yes. You can kill every boss with offmeta setups.

  • kratan.4619kratan.4619 Member ✭✭✭

    Sure they can, just have to find a group of non-tryhards to bring them.

  • skarpak.8594skarpak.8594 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 24, 2020

    i've cleared a vale guardian once in a complete new random group i joined via the lfg.
    i was playing healscourge and had total count of 62 rezzes. in the end we were 4 ppl alive and 42 seconds into enrage. the group had a scrapper tank running all over the place, a single chrono with arround 15% quickness uptime, a druid, 3 condi necros with like 4k dps...and the rest were just random "dps". basically 1 dps and me knowing the stuff, the rest were first timers. basically no boons at all.

    so yeah, you can clear certain bosses, but definitly not all. needless to say: the rest of w1 is not clearable with such a group. gorseval and sabetha will rip you a new one if you try memeing arround like this.

    you do not need meta builds / compostition to clear something, but having your bases covered makes it easier. stacking might is not hard...a lax group which do not care about efficency probably does not care if the druid is stacking, a elementalist, a warrior or a scrapper. but its highly advised that someone is doing the job at least.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Just for the record the answer like so many other people said is no.
    Ive been in a group that successfully completed
    Wing 1 all bosses
    Wing 2 Sloth and Trio
    Wing 3 Escort and KC
    Wing 4 all bosses (we had a pro scourge hand kite lol)

    With a 10 man necro only group.
    The only reason we didn't do Matt on wing 2 is because that required reflects which no necro has in its kit.
    Xera could have been done but we were running short on time and the dps on that one is pretty tight in terms of mechanics (But totally could have been done)

    So yes its possible to do raids without being meta you can be really far off meta even and get the job done for most wings but from a community perspective most people wont want non meta things unless you can play the non meta thing at the level of something that is meta aka its nearly or just as effective as something that is meta but people dont play it because its either not their cup of tea or its not fun to them or its too complicated for them to play etc.

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    Just for the record the answer like so many other people said is no.
    Ive been in a group that successfully completed
    Wing 1 all bosses
    Wing 2 Sloth and Trio
    Wing 3 Escort and KC
    Wing 4 all bosses (we had a pro scourge hand kite lol)

    With a 10 man necro only group.
    The only reason we didn't do Matt on wing 2 is because that required reflects which no necro has in its kit.
    Xera could have been done but we were running short on time and the dps on that one is pretty tight in terms of mechanics (But totally could have been done)

    So yes its possible to do raids without being meta you can be really far off meta even and get the job done for most wings but from a community perspective most people wont want non meta things unless you can play the non meta thing at the level of something that is meta aka its nearly or just as effective as something that is meta but people dont play it because its either not their cup of tea or its not fun to them or its too complicated for them to play etc.

    Your first line make no sence most people have said yes it can be done and you later in second section say yes aswell.

  • Shikaru.7618Shikaru.7618 Member ✭✭✭

    @chrispy.7182 said:
    I am fully aware that meta builds make raid clears quicker and more efficient.
    But I just want to know, is it possible to complete raid wings without having all meta builds, as long as you have 2 healers + tank and **As long as the damage is good enough **

    Letting people run their own builds will obviously mean that there would potentially be a lot of quickness and alacrity downtime on the group. Is it absolutely necessary that a group has a boon chrono to complete the raids? Is it it possible without one? as long as someone played a tanking roll.

    You can absolutely complete raids without a meta build/team comp assuming your players are good enough. There are some nuances with meta that you should be aware of when looking at this question.

    1. People's definition of "off-meta" varies from person to person. Player A might think off meta is running a condi dps firebrand with Stand your Ground instead of flame mantra on some bosses but with all of the same gear and traits. Player B might think a full viper with Balthazar rune firebrand is "off-meta". Generally if you're close-ish to whats listed, you're likely running something close enough to meta that it's not going to make a difference. However, if you have something thats fairly unexplored like power dps Herald, you'll need to make sure it can output enough to clear the boss by enrage. Generally the dps requirements for raid bosses are actually really low assuming you can execute mechanics perfectly for that long.
    2. A side of the "meta only" perspective that is generally unspoken but important nonetheless is how far you deviate from meta and whether or not you have objective data to prove your results has a correlation to how skilled/knowledgeable a person is at the game. There is a very big difference between these two types of players: Player A plays power scrapper because they find it fun. Can produce log parses of 20k+ on most bosses. Brings specialized utility skills per boss fight to fit the situation. Player B plays power scourge because it worked in open world, it works for him so why wouldn't it work for the team, and doesn't like playing cookie cutter. Dont be player B.
  • Cynder.2509Cynder.2509 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Yes they can when everyone in the team is coordinated to eachother well enough. However it might take multiple tries and perhaps much more time. You'll most definitely wipe a lot instead of getting it first try in a speedkill (this is what the majority if not the entire raid community wants) if you don't stick to the snowcrows composition.
    Also there are certain bosses that have a dps check like Gorseval (although the dps phase can be skipped with updrafts) or Dhuum which obviously fails off meta. These benchmarks are there for a reason and it is demanded of everyone to reach at least 90% [preferably 100% ;)] of said benchmark.

    I'm Hunter, he/him
    Character infos: https://is-it-because-im-charr.tumblr.com/charactersgw2

    canthaconfirmed

  • As others have said - what constitute offmeta is quite a wide spread, and you can clear everything without a single build that is exactly as SC/LN/etc prescribe in the squad.

    Bringing suitable boons is important for DPS, try hitting the golem with your DPS rotation with and without boons, they make up for around 2/3rds of your potential damage (assuming your class does not generate many).

    However, if you are pugging raids with very offmeta builds, please ensure that you can fulfill the role you sign up for - sign up as DPS, be on par with the other DPS or at least above the BS. sign up as a quickness provider, provide enough quickness while dealing reasonable damage, etc.

    Some of the reasons why the meta builds exist are squad synergy, and unique buffs - for example tempest or renegade can out heal a druid at every encounter, however you don't have access to spirits, or the very fast 10 player might stacking that druid brings.

  • sitarskee.5738sitarskee.5738 Member ✭✭✭

    As long as you have enough damage and people know what to do. Meta isn't a set standard required for completion, it's a preference. Meta is there to make raids etc. the easiest and fastest.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 26, 2020

    @chrispy.7182 said:
    I am fully aware that meta builds make raid clears quicker and more efficient.
    But I just want to know, is it possible to complete raid wings without having all meta builds, as long as you have 2 healers + tank and **As long as the damage is good enough **

    The answer is yes, with the caveat that if you don't have the boons covered, then you will be much less likely to have "good enough" dps. Also, "good enough" varies from boss to boss, and can also depend on many other things, like, for example, how likely the players in your group are to fail mechanics.
    One example: Cairn. A relatively easy boss, that can be done with very low dps and next to no group synergy (and is a boss where few good players can carry the whole group). If at least some players can do the mechanics well, that is. The more the players have a problem with mechanics there, the more dps you need to finish the boss as fast as possible before it wipes the whole group. On the other hand, if you have no problem with mechanics, there are some YT movies of people taking few hours to solo that boss.
    Another example: Gorseval. With big enough level of dps you can skip the updraft mechanic. You don't have to do it, but from my experience doing updrafts is going to make the whole fight way, way more difficult. First or second updraft phase is generally relatively easy, even for learning groups, but third one is probably going to wipe you - doing it is much harder than trying to push dps high enough to skip it.

    Letting people run their own builds will obviously mean that there would potentially be a lot of quickness and alacrity downtime on the group. Is it absolutely necessary that a group has a boon chrono to complete the raids? Is it it possible without one? as long as someone played a tanking roll.

    Quickness and alacrity are two of the main buffs needed for good dps. Running without buffs will make the encounters significantly harder. If for some reason you can't get a chrono (or your chrono is not yet experienced enough to supply a good uptime of buffs), there are other options (for example, getting a quickness-supplying Firebrand). If you can, definitely use those, they will make the whole raid experience much better for you.
    Same with other boons - might is a no-brainer. It doesn't matter what source of it you're going to use, but it is an essential boon whose lack you are going to feel. Banner warrior is a no-brainer as well, seeing as it is a build that is very easy to play at a decent level, with banners being very beneficial (actually, a group of builds - at the level of play you're talking about any of those builds will do, so your warrior can just pick whatever, or even play some personal build, as long as they're supplying banners and do decent dps).

    So, again, the answer is yes, you can go nonmeta, but you need to remember that meta is meta for a reason. The further you go from it in individual builds and (even more) in overall group composition, the more problems it's going to cause. Especially if you're just starting to learn raids, because in the learning phase you will need as many advantages as you can get.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Lurana.7506Lurana.7506 Member ✭✭✭

    Yes but :)

    It is absolutely possible to clear raid wings without meta builds. I even cleared wings with group comps such as 10 thiefs and other funny stuff with my guild. And in our Static we often run comps and sometimes builds that aren't meta either. And I personally don't see the comp part as that important. Yes, at certain bosses certain dps classes for example do shine. But better let people play classes they can play instead of forcing them to play classes they don't like or can't play. For example: You don't have to play pDH at Deimos, power Daredevil is also good. Sometimes we switch certain skills (so it's not the meta build anymore) to get better utility or whatever to suit our comp.

    BUT you surely get the smoothest tries with a meta comp and meta builds IF everybody is comfortable with their respective classes. But it makes no sense to force players to play a certain class or build if they are more comfortable with another one that performs quite as good. Because they will never achieve as much dps with a class they are not comfortable with.

  • Ubi.4136Ubi.4136 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @chrispy.7182 said:
    I am fully aware that meta builds make raid clears quicker and more efficient.
    But I just want to know, is it possible to complete raid wings without having all meta builds, as long as you have 2 healers + tank and **As long as the damage is good enough **

    Letting people run their own builds will obviously mean that there would potentially be a lot of quickness and alacrity downtime on the group. Is it absolutely necessary that a group has a boon chrono to complete the raids? Is it it possible without one? as long as someone played a tanking roll.

    It's already been proven that the raids can be done in all masterwork gear. So, as long as you meet the minimum dps, you should be fine.