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Kuunavang and the Voice

EdwinLi.1284EdwinLi.1284 Member ✭✭✭
edited August 25, 2020 in Lore

So the teaser trailer is out now showing glimps of Cantha and the return of Kuunavang while hinting her relationship to the Elder Dragons with a mysterious voice talking to her. What do you think this can all mean?! My own speculation is that the Voice is the Deep Sea Dragon and she has been a Good Elder Dragon compared to others that did her best to avoid interacting with the races because she did not want to harm them until current events that force her hand to help the commander, Aurene, and the other races because of what Jormag is about to do.

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  • EdwinLi.1284EdwinLi.1284 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 25, 2020

    @Gorgaan Peaudesang.8324 said:
    "The cycle is reborn" at the end of the trailer is a powerful sentence.

    I, too, believe Kuunavang is talking with an Elder Dragon, the one known as S(omething).

    I suspect it may hint towards many things but the one thing I suspect is part of that meaning is the reveal of how the Cycle began in the first place since that knowledge has been lost for so long with the only beings who have knowledge of the Cycle origins now are the Elder Dragons themselves which everyone we met so far has not been very friendly towards us. Considering if the Voice is the DSD and she may have always been the friendly one, we may finally learn the truth about the Cycle from her.

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 25, 2020

    Isn't it Aurene talking to Kunavaang?

    Thanks for clarifying below

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  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Well maybe one of the Gods, but that wouldn't be new unless by the "never seen in GW2" definition. They aren't mortal after all and the return of the one or more of the Gods is something some have speculated before.

    Otherwise, it could be this "mother" figure mentioned in that wholly bizarre end scene of Kralkatorrik

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 25, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    What worries me about the expansion title and logo is that it implies that Jormag and Primordus are going to be killed in Icebrood Saga. Unless all three remaining Elder Dragons migrate to Cantha at once.

    Long live the Lich had Joko dying. Titles are misleading. Though I would assume Jormag is going to bite the dust in Icebrood Saga.

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    Well maybe one of the Gods, but that wouldn't be new unless by the "never seen in GW2" definition. They aren't mortal after all and the return of the one or more of the Gods is something some have speculated before.

    Otherwise, it could be this "mother" figure mentioned in that wholly bizarre end scene of Kralkatorrik

    Well we know that there is something up with Lyssa(not saying its her but if it was any of the human gods it would be her), or it could be Kralk's mom yeah.

  • Hannelore.8153Hannelore.8153 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 25, 2020

    Its a metaphor, it doesn't mean the dragons die, it means their time of power is over. That's what the trailer is all about.

    Presumably, https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheMagicGoesAway

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  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    What worries me about the expansion title and logo is that it implies that Jormag and Primordus are going to be killed in Icebrood Saga. Unless all three remaining Elder Dragons migrate to Cantha at once.

    But what about replacements? Is Anet just going to entirely drop that? Or maybe the mysterious voice is Jormag's/Primordus' replacement?

    I am wondering if End of Dragons isnt about Elder Dragons and more about the end of higher Dragons like Glint and Kunnavang etc.

    To my knowledge Kunnavang and Albax are the only two non elder dragons left on Tyria.. Glint and Vlast are dead and Aurine has become an Elder now with no offspring of her own nor do we know if she's even capable of creating any.
    The other Saltspreys were corrupted by the Jade wind so Kunnie and Albax could be the last of their species.. so if they become an Elder Dragon or 2 Elder Dragons then it would technically be the End of Dragons like them
    The only dragons then left in the world would be the lesser species like Skyscales and Wyverns..

  • EdwinLi.1284EdwinLi.1284 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 26, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @EdwinLi.1284 said:
    My own speculation is that the Voice is the Deep Sea Dragon and she has been a Good Elder Dragon compared to others that did her best to avoid interacting with the races because she did not want to harm them until current events that force her hand to help the commander, Aurene, and the other races because of what Jormag is about to do.

    If the DSD was a good Elder Dragon, why did it force out the krait, quaggan, karka, and battle the largos? Or the sailors that are washed ashore after being assaulted by brand new sea monsters that appeared after the DSD woke up (either being the source of said sea monsters, or displaced them into the common sailing routes)? The DSD has not interacted with Central Tyria, but that doesn't mean it hasn't interacted with other races - because it has, and it has acted the same as the other five evil Elder Dragons.

    As I said it is only speculation and DSD can still be basically the generic evil antagonist we view all Elder dragons as but we have always know little about the DSD until maybe the Cantha expansion. For all we know the push out of those races and appearance of new creatures could have been a accident caused by the introduction to DSD into their ecosystem.

    We always assumed DSD is evil because of what others have said about events for their side of the story but we never have been in the areas where those events actually happened thus we never gotten the full picture of the DSD's effects, nature, desires, and reasoning. Only pieces of what happened from the view point of those who were in those places.

    We have learned much about the current Elder Dragons because we have always interacted with them and most cases their minions to get a glimps at their reasoning, desires, and views. The DSD on the other hand has little interactions since we have never encountered DSD minions nor gotten a view on what motivations has been implanted into them to get a glimps into the DSD mind.

    As I said DSD can still be basically the expect Evil Dragon we all assumed her to be since GW2 began but from recent stories we have seen it is certain Anet is bring up the question of what if there is more about the Elder Dragons than we always assumed ever since events of Kralkatorik.

  • Jimbru.6014Jimbru.6014 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 25, 2020

    As Kralk said about Aurene, "She is the first of her kind." Perhaps Kuunavang or this mysterious Voice will be the next.

    Oh and by the way, I'm not counting Jormag or Primordus dead until they actually are. Jormag's motives seem to be in a really weird place right now, and we have no idea what's up with Primordus yet. Let's see how the story develops before jumping to conclusions.

  • Psientist.6437Psientist.6437 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 25, 2020

    Either 'end' is the word for a group of dragons or dragon power and the Elder Dragon cycle is ending. The studio put a lot of effort into Glint's plan, I hope they don't just drop it or drop it with only a sentence or two. They are already in the process of letting her plan whither from neglect. I have always had problems with the idea of replacing the current Elder Dragons with new Elder dragons but players have been convinced it will happen because the studio put so much effort into convincing them. Imo, the studio is fumbling the transition and only have an episode or two to do the transition justice. As far as every Tyrian is concerned, we can't kill Jormag without a replacement but the Commander's attitude is kitten yea we will kill them.

    I doubt we will see magic end with the end of the Elder dragon cycle. I hope what I have been seeing for a while is true, the death of the old gods births a world where the job of maintaining the All is democratized or where the All is returned to a natural state, uncorrupted by dragons. It would make a great segue into GW3. I just wish I could convince myself the plan isn't the death of the old gods, birth of the one true god.

    The logo shows the same dragon locked in a cycle or something similar to the ying-yang symbol. I don't see any connection to Jormag or Primordius.

    Unless the studio has embraced right wing ethno-nationalism, Cantha is no longer a xenophobic country, at least not completely. Cantha and its people are portrayed favorably. Perhaps Canthans put away their racial prejudices to face a common threat just as Tyrians did.

    As for the mysterious voice, perhaps they are a representative from the 'land of dragons', a clan of high dragons who have remained hidden since the beginning of the Elder Dragon cycle.

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  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    What worries me about the expansion title and logo is that it implies that Jormag and Primordus are going to be killed in Icebrood Saga. Unless all three remaining Elder Dragons migrate to Cantha at once.

    Long live the Lich had Joko dying. Titles are misleading. Though I would assume Jormag is going to bite the dust in Icebrood Saga.

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    Well maybe one of the Gods, but that wouldn't be new unless by the "never seen in GW2" definition. They aren't mortal after all and the return of the one or more of the Gods is something some have speculated before.

    Otherwise, it could be this "mother" figure mentioned in that wholly bizarre end scene of Kralkatorrik

    Well we know that there is something up with Lyssa(not saying its her but if it was any of the human gods it would be her), or it could be Kralk's mom yeah.

    Funny that you say Lyssa. Clearly the entity speaking is female, if we are going strictly by voice, is ancient and immortal, has ties to Cantha. It could be Lyssa speaking to Kuunavang. I noticed an awful lot of purple smoke in that trailer too, with given, how Anet threw in a lot of fire sequences in the Flashpoint trailer for Balthazar’s reveal, might be pointing to Lyssa. Lyssa being a human god does have a soft spot for humans, which could explain why “they need her”.

  • Svennis.3852Svennis.3852 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 25, 2020

    The mysterious new character could be Kuunaveng’s champion figure, similar to the commander? Perhaps one uplifted to immortality, or turning down the offer?

    That or I assume it is another dragon. I doubt the DSD because they’ve been portrayed so evilly, even within the limited examples we have. Water morphed into horrors in the deep sounds pretty sinister. The only way I could see it working is some sort of orange and blue dragon morality where they felt the need to block off areas of the ocean to protect mortal races, and scaring/fighting them off was the best means in their mind to do it.

    I think it’s more likely this could be a child of Kuunaveng though. If Glint could spawn alone, why not she? I was going to say Shiny, but if I consider the writer’s tweet literally I assume it’s someone new to the lore/franchise.

  • Ashantara.8731Ashantara.8731 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @EdwinLi.1284 said:
    So the teaser trailer is out now showing glimps of Cantha and the return of Kuunavang while hinting her relationship to the Elder Dragons with a mysterious voice talking to her.

    The Mother of Dragons, I assume, as mentioned by a dying Kralkatorrik?

  • Svennis.3852Svennis.3852 Member ✭✭✭

    We could find a means to literally bring about Elder Dragon rebirth, perhaps. Who needs to kill EDs when you can hit the reset button and guide their development from infancy?

    Obviously that's a long shot, but it would be interesting in theory.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    The next episode is a Vision and after that we'll be getting "an LS1 like event". I'd say we're just over halfway through.

    Only thing I recall them saying was that, after episode 4, they wanted to try some S1 like content. We have no confirmation that said content wont be the next Visions-like update.

    And, right now, we are just at half way though Icebrood Saga. We still have 4 more main chapter left, and one, possibly two, visions like side updates left.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 26, 2020

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    What worries me about the expansion title and logo is that it implies that Jormag and Primordus are going to be killed in Icebrood Saga. Unless all three remaining Elder Dragons migrate to Cantha at once.

    Long live the Lich had Joko dying. Titles are misleading. Though I would assume Jormag is going to bite the dust in Icebrood Saga.

    There was nothing misleading about Long Live the Lich's title.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_king_is_dead,_long_live_the_king!
    It's an obvious play on words to that phrase that is used in medieval times when a king dies and a new one is crowned - it's often showened to just "long live the king" in literature when a king is about to die. Most popular example: Scar killing Mufasa in Lion King, or a more recent usage: Godzilla: King of the Monsters, the female scientist whispers the phrase as Godzilla sneaks up on King Gidorah just before the final death blow is dealt.

    There was NOTHING misleading about using a slightly changed common phrase referencing the death of the subject of said phrase.

    Those who think it's misleading, merely don't know the source material.

    If anything, the title was heavily foreshadowing Aurene gaining Joko's immortality - the lich (Joko) is dead, long live the lich (Aurene)!

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    What worries me about the expansion title and logo is that it implies that Jormag and Primordus are going to be killed in Icebrood Saga. Unless all three remaining Elder Dragons migrate to Cantha at once.

    But what about replacements? Is Anet just going to entirely drop that? Or maybe the mysterious voice is Jormag's/Primordus' replacement?

    I am wondering if End of Dragons isnt about Elder Dragons and more about the end of higher Dragons like Glint and Kunnavang etc.

    To my knowledge Kunnavang and Albax are the only two non elder dragons left on Tyria.. Glint and Vlast are dead and Aurine has become an Elder now with no offspring of her own nor do we know if she's even capable of creating any.
    The other Saltspreys were corrupted by the Jade wind so Kunnie and Albax could be the last of their species.. so if they become an Elder Dragon or 2 Elder Dragons then it would technically be the End of Dragons like them
    The only dragons then left in the world would be the lesser species like Skyscales and Wyverns..

    There's an entire species of Saltspray Dragons, Rockhide Dragons, Dragon Mosses, and more in Cantha. The Jade Wind only twisted the Saltspray's minds, but not all of them - some, like Shiny or the unnamed hatchling in the Alliance Battles map, were perfectly sane and helped the mortals that raised them. Suggesting that it only twisted the living Saltsprays at the time, and the younger ones were just warped by the nurtured harshness of their parents.

    @Jimbru.6014 said:
    Oh and by the way, I'm not counting Jormag or Primordus dead until they actually are. Jormag's motives seem to be in a really weird place right now, and we have no idea what's up with Primordus yet. Let's see how the story develops before jumping to conclusions.

    Indeed, perhaps Primordus will remain forever dormant due to the actions of Jormag and Aurene in Icebrood Saga, rather than killed. Especially since we still need replacements (which seems even more to be the focus of the third expansion).

    @Psientist.6437 said:
    The studio put a lot of effort into Glint's plan, I hope they don't just drop it or drop it with only a sentence or two. They are already in the process of letting her plan whither from neglect.

    Aurene after killing Kralkatorrik:

    Aurene: My grandfather's prophecy is fulfilled. My mother's legacy is complete.

    I'm sure as far as most people are concerned, this line confirms the whole "Glint's Legacy" plot completed. I mean, not according to Sadizi, but according to Aurene...

    Imo, the studio is fumbling the transition and only have an episode or two to do the transition justice.

    Not sure what you mean, we're only halfway through Icebrood Saga. That's 4 episodes, with a few intermission releases too.

    The logo shows the same dragon locked in a cycle or something similar to the ying-yang symbol. I don't see any connection to Jormag or Primordius.

    The bottom design is actually different from the top - the nose particularly, but where the "jaw fin" meets the neck is also different.

    I agree, no similarity to Jormag or Primordus, rather they look like Saltspray Dragon "jaw fins", making me think Kuunavang and Albax (maybe the DSD if they decide to connect Kuunavang to the DSD after all).

    Unless the studio has embraced right wing ethno-nationalism, Cantha is no longer a xenophobic country, at least not completely. Cantha and its people are portrayed favorably. Perhaps Canthans put away their racial prejudices to face a common threat just as Tyrians did.

    I imagine that they'll still be xenophobic, but not to the point of "we will kill any non-Canthan that tries to enter". I imagine it'd be a "you're not like, but you are tolerated because even if non-human, you are diplomats from a foreign nation and we do not want open war" (unless, of course, open war is what brings us to Cantha - though given the title, I'm doubtful).

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  • Rukia.4802Rukia.4802 Member ✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    What worries me about the expansion title and logo is that it implies that Jormag and Primordus are going to be killed in Icebrood Saga. Unless all three remaining Elder Dragons migrate to Cantha at once.

    Long live the Lich had Joko dying. Titles are misleading. Though I would assume Jormag is going to bite the dust in Icebrood Saga.

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    Well maybe one of the Gods, but that wouldn't be new unless by the "never seen in GW2" definition. They aren't mortal after all and the return of the one or more of the Gods is something some have speculated before.

    Otherwise, it could be this "mother" figure mentioned in that wholly bizarre end scene of Kralkatorrik

    Well we know that there is something up with Lyssa(not saying its her but if it was any of the human gods it would be her), or it could be Kralk's mom yeah.

    I think dwayna cuz she had a hand in cantha before giving the emperor power which indirectly caused the jade wind to be so powerful, iirc.

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  • Bast.7253Bast.7253 Member ✭✭✭✭

    So after watching the video a few times, here is my analysis:

    "They need me" is being said by the MALE voice, talking about how life isn't as meaningful for the humans without the cycle. He's saying "they need me," essentially as a villain saying they are a necessary evil.

    It is difficult to distinguish between the two voices at times and I can't help but think this might be intentional. They mentioned a mysterious "new character" but is that to GW2 or Guild Wars in general? Are Kunavang and Albax twins? Because the similarity in voices would make me think the new voice is two siblings talking to each other, Kunavang the female that looks after people, and Albax the one that wants to fulfill the cycle.

    The first bit with the giant purple pool (0:08) is very interesting and I'm not sure what that's eluding to. Further on in the video we're lead under Kaening City with green clouds which I assume to represent the affliction. However there are also very obvious spiked SCALED tentacles/tail of somekind. Just look at the second close up, it's obviously scales. (0:22)

    So, with the line about building above something that tried to destroy them, I'm really thinking that the deep sea dragon DID attack them, and they somehow managed to defeat it and build ontop of it. The two spiked tail things look like they could potentially be necks, perhaps representing the hydra dragon concept art.

    So, with that as a valid possibility, what happened when they killed it? Did Albax absorb the magic and ascend? Is this Albax justifying the elder dragon cycle to Kunavang?
    I suppose it COULD be Shiny as it was missing when we went to the Djinn raid and missing in Elona in general. But I feel like that's a little less likely.

    I really don't think the male voice is the deep sea dragon though, it sounds younger, and it sounds very similar to the female voice. I don't think that's a coincidence. It also seems highly implied, to me at least, that the DSD has been defeated and we see evidence in the trailer. Between the Krakens and the trapped Leviathans in the giant Jade formations in Guild Wars 1, I think DSD has probably been pretty involved in Cantha for quite some time. I wouldn't be surprised if it moved in somewhere between the two franchises and made its move but perhaps the combined military, the celestials, and Kunavang and Albax were able to defeat it. I mean just look at how many we've defeated even before Aurene came along.

    It seems like this is mirroring OUR journey thus far with Elder Dragons and showing a civilization that did it without the help of the great "commander."

    I really don't get the point of the purple fog everywhere or the purple pool. I don't think this is a solid indication of Lyssa though.

    Also, at the end of the video when the male voice says, "They need me" - it zooms in on the saltsprey dragon's eyes, as if it implying that it is the one saying "They need me" which further makes me believe that it isn't Kunavang we're looking at, it's Albax.

    The blue flying light at the beginning makes me think that is Aurene, and she's either overhearing the conversation or about to convene with the two.

    I really don't think the "sought to destroy them" is talking about the affliction, because IT didn't really seek out anything, it was just a plague. And the tentacles at the bottom seem pretty ominous to me.

    All that Dwayna magic used by Shiro probably looked pretty tasty to DSD and they got the best of it when it attacked, imo.

    I suppose as a second theory in terms of the dialogue alone, you could argue that the female voice is eluding to "corrupting" humanity and providing immortality through branding but the male voice is saying, "no, they need me to save you from forcing immortality onto them/branding them."

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭

    All I know is I'm happy that the name of this Expansion hints at ending the whole ED Saga once and for all.

    Like look, the whole story of GW2 so far is cool and all, but it revolved around ED way too much.
    I still like HoT, I still liked Zhaitan story, but it just annoys me that all motivations and plot driving elements in GW2 story so far always leads back to EDs in some way.

    Even PoF was mainly driven by the presence of an ED and while the power hungry Balth is the main focus, he too is driven and motivated by the presence of Kralk.

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  • @Bast.7253 said:
    The first bit with the giant purple pool (0:08) is very interesting and I'm not sure what that's eluding to. Further on in the video we're lead under Kaening City with green clouds which I assume to represent the affliction. However there are also very obvious spiked SCALED tentacles/tail of somekind. Just look at the second close up, it's obviously scales. (0:22)

    So, with the line about building above something that tried to destroy them, I'm really thinking that the deep sea dragon DID attack them, and they somehow managed to defeat it and build ontop of it. The two spiked tail things look like they could potentially be necks, perhaps representing the hydra dragon concept art.

    Those structures are metal, you can find such pipes carrying sewage in GW1. Just go to Tahnnakai Temple outpost, and you can see some, they're all over the underneath maps:

    Nothing to do with the Elder Dragons. Just one of many dragon designs in Canthan architecture. Like their lighthouses.

    Between the Krakens and the trapped Leviathans in the giant Jade formations in Guild Wars 1, I think DSD has probably been pretty involved in Cantha for quite some time.

    Per lore, krakens were also in the seas near Tyria, and Leviathans are just giant undersea wurms (per Solid Ocean Fractal models). No relation to water twisted into tecntacled monsters - they'd look elemental if they were, like all other dragon minions.

    I really don't get the point of the purple fog everywhere or the purple pool. I don't think this is a solid indication of Lyssa though.

    I've seen some folks suggest miasma and the Affliction, which wouldn't be too surprising if the trailer was just showcasing Cantha as it was in GW1, which all the landscape does imply.

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  • Bast.7253Bast.7253 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Bast.7253 said:
    The first bit with the giant purple pool (0:08) is very interesting and I'm not sure what that's eluding to. Further on in the video we're lead under Kaening City with green clouds which I assume to represent the affliction. However there are also very obvious spiked SCALED tentacles/tail of somekind. Just look at the second close up, it's obviously scales. (0:22)

    So, with the line about building above something that tried to destroy them, I'm really thinking that the deep sea dragon DID attack them, and they somehow managed to defeat it and build ontop of it. The two spiked tail things look like they could potentially be necks, perhaps representing the hydra dragon concept art.

    Those structures are metal, you can find such pipes carrying sewage in GW1. Just go to Tahnnakai Temple outpost, and you can see some, they're all over the underneath maps:

    Nothing to do with the Elder Dragons. Just one of many dragon designs in Canthan architecture. Like their lighthouses.

    Between the Krakens and the trapped Leviathans in the giant Jade formations in Guild Wars 1, I think DSD has probably been pretty involved in Cantha for quite some time.

    Per lore, krakens were also in the seas near Tyria, and Leviathans are just giant undersea wurms (per Solid Ocean Fractal models). No relation to water twisted into tecntacled monsters - they'd look elemental if they were, like all other dragon minions.

    I really don't get the point of the purple fog everywhere or the purple pool. I don't think this is a solid indication of Lyssa though.

    I've seen some folks suggest miasma and the Affliction, which wouldn't be too surprising if the trailer was just showcasing Cantha as it was in GW1, which all the landscape does imply.

    The pipe bit is interesting and I wonder why they chose that for their design? Does it look like the saltspray dragons? Seems like they would have chosen something more similar to them. But yeah, I see the similarity.

    As far as the Leviathan bit goes, isn't there a leviathan skeleton in the Durmond Priory implying it to be a dead minion of the deep sea dragon? I'll have to go in game but that's what I was pulling from on that.

  • ThatOddOne.4387ThatOddOne.4387 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 26, 2020

    I do really like the theory that Cantha has already defeated the DSD. It's a nice twist. Plus avoids retreading the same old 'defeat an elder dragon' story steps.

    If both Kuunavang and Albax have taken portions of the DSD's power, then it could quite well be a set-up for a Yin and Yang story.

  • EdwinLi.1284EdwinLi.1284 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 26, 2020

    @ThatOddOne.4387 said:
    I do really like the theory that Cantha has already defeated the DSD. It's a nice twist. Plus avoids retreading the same old 'defeat an elder dragon' story steps.

    If both Kuunavang and Albax have taken portions of the DSD's power, then it could quite well be a set-up for a Yin and Yang story.

    ya it seems even WoodenPotatoes is siding with the possibility that the reason why we never seen the DSD is because it was already defeated in Cantha by the Canthan Empire.

    Though if this is so then we have to ask how, when, and if they have their own Commander or not.

  • Psientist.6437Psientist.6437 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 26, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Psientist.6437 said:
    The studio put a lot of effort into Glint's plan, I hope they don't just drop it or drop it with only a sentence or two. They are already in the process of letting her plan whither from neglect.

    Aurene after killing Kralkatorrik:

    Aurene: My grandfather's prophecy is fulfilled. My mother's legacy is complete.

    I'm sure as far as most people are concerned, this line confirms the whole "Glint's Legacy" plot completed. I mean, not according to Sadizi, but according to Aurene...

    Imo, the studio is fumbling the transition and only have an episode or two to do the transition justice.

    Not sure what you mean, we're only halfway through Icebrood Saga. That's 4 episodes, with a few intermission releases too.

    The logo shows the same dragon locked in a cycle or something similar to the ying-yang symbol. I don't see any connection to Jormag or Primordius.

    The bottom design is actually different from the top - the nose particularly, but where the "jaw fin" meets the neck is also different.

    I agree, no similarity to Jormag or Primordus, rather they look like Saltspray Dragon "jaw fins", making me think Kuunavang and Albax (maybe the DSD if they decide to connect Kuunavang to the DSD after all).

    Unless the studio has embraced right wing ethno-nationalism, Cantha is no longer a xenophobic country, at least not completely. Cantha and its people are portrayed favorably. Perhaps Canthans put away their racial prejudices to face a common threat just as Tyrians did.

    I imagine that they'll still be xenophobic, but not to the point of "we will kill any non-Canthan that tries to enter". I imagine it'd be a "you're not like, but you are tolerated because even if non-human, you are diplomats from a foreign nation and we do not want open war" (unless, of course, open war is what brings us to Cantha - though given the title, I'm doubtful).

    Glint's plan was to replace the current Elder dragons. Their plan included Vlast who died. Aurene may have said her mother's legacy is complete but she is either talking out of her kitten, saw herself as the only replacement needed, or means her mother's legacy and purpose has fallen to her. Distinction between 'Glint's plan' and 'The plan to replace the Elder dragons' is distinction without difference.

    I am not talking about the transition from the Icebrood Saga to the End of Dragons but the transition from 'The plan to replace the Elder dragons' to the end of dragons. There is no apparent irony in the title "End of Dragons" and I doubt 'end' is the term for a group of dragons or refers to a location on a dragon's body. A long dragon would have two ends so it is possible. If we take the title of the expansion seriously, we will see a sea-change in 'the plan to replace the Elder dragons'. Since we are following the path of destiny to kill Jormag, that transition has to happen within the next 2 episodes. We need to see the Commander and other Tyrians talk about what they think will happen if Jormag dies. Please do not respond with some nonsense that they don't have to because Jormag hasn't explicitly said they want to hurt people.

    The logo could show two different dragons or the same dragon in different mediums, water and air. The similarity to a ying-yang symbol can't be a coincidence and works with either interpretation but more easily with two different dragons.

    The studio is describing Canthans in glowing terms. I don't see them describing Canthans in such a way and making them solidly ethno-nationalistic. If they do, the forums will become a cesspool.

    edit: If we take the title at face value, then Aurene's power may end as well.

    all primes work and not tearing down has value
    ready purrlayer @ any parsed feels enhance the value of something that is already worth everything
    what other chordal approach but penultimate singing along with other quantum cuddle clocks

  • @Hannelore.8153 said:
    Its a metaphor, it doesn't mean the dragons die, it means their time of power is over. That's what the trailer is all about.

    Presumably, https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheMagicGoesAway

    I agree its a metaphor, or a play on words, I also tend to think along the lines of

    https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HereThereBeDragons

    Like, you sail past the area of the DSD and you come to the end of dragons.

    There is a whole globe to explore, this is not the end of the road, merely the end of dragons, like you drive to the end of the corn field, the corn hasn't ceased to exist but you are away from where it is.

  • Psientist.6437Psientist.6437 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 26, 2020

    The purple mist could be an illusion spell cast by Lyssa before she left Tyria that partially hides Cantha and the dragons the DSD could corrupt.

    If the structure of the All can be monitored from Tyria, then I don't see how the DSD could die without us knowing. I also don't see the studio abandoning what would be a really interesting fight. I am picturing zones that transition between underwater combat and land combat as they are flooded by the DSD. In terms of zone narrative design, the battle against the DSD could be the most interesting Elder Dragon battle.

    Theoretically, there is no part of the planet beyond the border of the Elder dragons. Taken together, "End of Dragons" and "the cycle is reborn" imply the end to dragon power and their domination of the All.

    Both voices speak favorably of mortals and more importantly, mortality. One sounds willing to remain hiding while the other sounds willing to risk entering the battle against the Elder dragons.

    all primes work and not tearing down has value
    ready purrlayer @ any parsed feels enhance the value of something that is already worth everything
    what other chordal approach but penultimate singing along with other quantum cuddle clocks

  • Genesis.8572Genesis.8572 Member ✭✭✭

    @Gorgaan Peaudesang.8324 said:
    "The cycle is reborn" at the end of the trailer is a powerful sentence.

    I, too, believe Kuunavang is talking with an Elder Dragon, the one known as S(omething).

    "Sarah"

  • EdwinLi.1284EdwinLi.1284 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 26, 2020

    If speculations that the DSD has already been killed off in Cantha for a long time is true then there still remains another question next to the when, how, and why being the Orb for the DSD not disappearing when we looked into the Eternal Alchemy.

    One of my other speculation, following if the death of DSD has already happened in Cantha maybe true, is that the title and rights of the DSD may have been transfered to maybe two dragons creating a DSD of Ying and DSD of Yang thus maybe why the DSD orb never went out and remained bright in the Eternal Alchemy. The old Deep Sea Elder Dragon maybe gone but in its place two new Dragons maintain the position of DSD's influence but both disagree with how they may want to handle the DSD position. However, since they are still only half the DSD powers neither have reach the level of Aurene yet.

    The real Kralkatorik personality mentioned Aurene is the first of her kind and now that meaning has more to it being Aurene is the first of the Dragons in the new Cycle. With this one must ask who maybe the other New Dragons of the new Cycle? It is already implied Aurene will not be the only Dragon to maintain the magic in the new Cycle but she is the first of these New Dragons.

    I suspect one of the Dragons in the new logo maybe the 2nd New Dragon of the New Cycle to be the Elder Dragon that embodies Ying and Yang after one of them dies in the story and transfers their power to the surviving Dragon to become a complete New Dragon. However, another hypothesis is that both of them may become New Dragons of the New Cycle thus creating a Twin Dragons type New Dragon with one acting as the Ying and the other acting as the Yang once both of them reach a understanding to help protect the world in the New Cycle.

  • Psientist.6437Psientist.6437 Member ✭✭✭

    @EdwinLi.1284 said:
    If speculations that the DSD has already been killed off in Cantha for a long time is true then there still remains another question next to the when, how, and why being the Orb for the DSD not disappearing when we looked into the Eternal Alchemy.

    One of my other speculation, following if the death of DSD has already happened in Cantha maybe true, is that the title and rights of the DSD may have been transfered to maybe two dragons creating a DSD of Ying and DSD of Yang thus maybe why the DSD orb never went out and remained bright in the Eternal Alchemy. The old Deep Sea Elder Dragon maybe gone but in its place two new Dragons maintain the position of DSD's influence but both disagree with how they may want to handle the DSD position. However, since they are still only half the DSD powers neither have reach the level of Aurene yet.

    The real Kralkatorik personality mentioned Aurene is the first of her kind and now that meaning has more to it being Aurene is the first of the Dragons in the new Cycle. With this one must ask who maybe the other New Dragons of the new Cycle? It is already implied Aurene will not be the only Dragon to maintain the magic in the new Cycle but she is the first of these New Dragons.

    I suspect one of the Dragons in the new logo maybe the 2nd New Dragon of the New Cycle to be the Elder Dragon that embodies Ying and Yang after one of them dies in the story and transfers their power to the surviving Dragon to become a complete New Dragon. However, another hypothesis is that both of them may become New Dragons of the New Cycle thus creating a Twin Dragons type New Dragon with one acting as the Ying and the other acting as the Yang once both of them reach a understanding to help protect the world in the New Cycle.

    How does this theory explain the title of the expansion? I may be putting too much significance into the title but it is hard not to.

    all primes work and not tearing down has value
    ready purrlayer @ any parsed feels enhance the value of something that is already worth everything
    what other chordal approach but penultimate singing along with other quantum cuddle clocks

  • EdwinLi.1284EdwinLi.1284 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 26, 2020

    @Psientist.6437 said:

    How does this theory explain the title of the expansion? I may be putting too much significance into the title but it is hard not to.

    The Title "End of Dragons" implies the End of the old Elder Dragon Cycle.

    At the end of the trailer teaser the words "A Cycle is Reborn" implies a new Cycle is created. This New Cycle most likely speaks about the birth of a New Dragon Cycle.

    The current Cycle we are in is the old Elder Dragon Cycle and with the death of all old Elder Dragons the old Cycle dies with them but the birth of New Elder Dragons such as Aurene and maybe other New Dragons creates a New Cycle different from the old Cycle.

    It is still a Elder Dragon Cycle but one that has completely new to the world that will act as the new cycle to maintain the flow of Magic reborn to do so without mass genocide of all life on the planet.

    thus combine these two together the full message of the Teaser maybe "The End of the Old Elder Dragon Cycle and Reborn as a New Elder Dragon Cycle"

  • ThatOddOne.4387ThatOddOne.4387 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 26, 2020

    Because it wasn't defeated before that sequence was shown to us?

    I don't think anyone was suggesting that the Canthans could 'easily' defeat the DSD, more that they took a while to do so and likely suffered catastrophically in the process, but ultimately succeeded - "Testament to Mortal Resilience" - Maybe around the time Kralkatorrik was defeated. It doesn't necessarily have to have been around the same time as or before Zhaitan was defeated.

    I also don't think the All is really fully understood yet and the image we were shown with the 'orbs' does not have to be taken as gospel.

    And besides, if the DSD was immediately replaced by Kuunavang and/or Albax, there wouldn't have been disruption to the All, at least visible from Tyria with the means available to us.

    Whether the DSD fight would be interesting or not is irrelevant to me. I'm far more interesting the story, and the fact remains another "Defeat the Elder Dragon" storyline would be rather bland.

  • Psientist.6437Psientist.6437 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 26, 2020

    @EdwinLi.1284 said:

    @Psientist.6437 said:

    How does this theory explain the title of the expansion? I may be putting too much significance into the title but it is hard not to.

    At the end of the trailer teaser the words "A Cycle is Reborn" implies a new Cycle is created. This New Cycle most likely speaks about the birth of a New Dragon Cycle.

    The current Cycle we are in is the old Elder Dragon Cycle and with the death of all old Elder Dragons the old Cycle dies with them but the birth of New Elder Dragons such as Aurene and maybe other New Dragons creates a New Cycle different from the old Cycle.

    Perhaps, but to me at least, the title implies more than just a minor change in All management. It is a powerful choice of words. Both voices speak of the value of mortality and endings. They sound like beings who want something genuinely different.

    Perhaps the title refers to the Dragon Dynasty.

    all primes work and not tearing down has value
    ready purrlayer @ any parsed feels enhance the value of something that is already worth everything
    what other chordal approach but penultimate singing along with other quantum cuddle clocks

  • EdwinLi.1284EdwinLi.1284 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 26, 2020

    @ThatOddOne.4387 said:
    Because it wasn't defeated before that sequence was shown to us?

    I don't think anyone was suggesting that the Canthans could 'easily' defeat the DSD, more that they took a while to do so and likely suffered catastrophically in the process, but ultimately succeeded - "Testament to Mortal Resilience" - Maybe around the time Kralkatorrik was defeated. It doesn't necessarily have to have been around the same time as or before Zhaitan was defeated.

    I also don't think the All is really fully understood yet and the image we were shown with the 'orbs' does not have to be taken as gospel.

    And besides, if the DSD was immediately replaced by Kuunavang and/or Albax, there wouldn't have been disruption to the All, at least visible from Tyria with the means available to us.

    I am not saying it happened before Zhaitan but more that it has been a while since the DSD defeat which most likely maybe between Zhaitan's defeat to Kralkatorik.

    The ingame lore is that it has been already 9 years since the Zhaitan Arc ended which gives a lot of space for when it could have happened.

    If it happened after Zhaitan's defeat and before Mordremoth's defeat then it would explain why no one noticed because DSD death and transfer of rights and influence may not be noticed due to the world not being affected story wise yet. (This covers the year 1325 AE to 1328 AE)

    Though my speculation say it should not be after Mordremoth's death and before Kralkatorik's death since by that point we should have seen a strange shift in magic unless that shift was not calculated due to the already crazy events the Commander and his/her allies were focused on. (1329 AE to 1332 AE)

    After Kralkatorik's death to current events is the least in my opinion because we should have notice a sudden change to the magic unless Jormag was the only one that noticed it and that is the implied danger she speaks about. (1332 AE to current events which is now 1333 AE)

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭

    If the Canthan Empire had defeated Bubbles one would think all of the displaced deep ocean species we have encountered would have noticed the sudden lack of coordination and power that dragon minions tend to get after their dragon dies.

    Given that the Karka only appeared on the surface after Zhaitan's defeat, and did so fleeing the Deep Sea Dragon's minions, it seems to suggest its still alive.

    Not to mention, if it had died, people would have noticed the ley energy buildup/transference of powers to the other Elder Dragons.

  • EdwinLi.1284EdwinLi.1284 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 26, 2020

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    If the Canthan Empire had defeated Bubbles one would think all of the displaced deep ocean species we have encountered would have noticed the sudden lack of coordination and power that dragon minions tend to get after their dragon dies.

    Given that the Karka only appeared on the surface after Zhaitan's defeat, and did so fleeing the Deep Sea Dragon's minions, it seems to suggest its still alive.

    Not to mention, if it had died, people would have noticed the ley energy buildup/transference of powers to the other Elder Dragons.

    As my speculation mentions, i suspect that the lack of Elder Dragon energy getting out of DSD possible death maybe due to Two Dragons being in the area to absorb half/half of the DSD energy and thus taking the DSD place as the current DSD of the current Cycle with both of them only having half of DSD powers each.

    Most of the time the leaking of Elder Dragon Energy into other Elder Dragons was due to some of those energy being missed when the absorbing happens such as how Kralk's energy was not fully absorbed into Aurene and thus the parts missed were dragged into the other Elder Dragons thus giving current surviving Elder Dragons all of Kralk's powers. However, with two fully grown Dragons absorbing the energy it is possible no DSD energy maybe missed thus they may successfully fully contained the DSD energy into the possible new DSD of Ying and DSD of Yang.

  • Svennis.3852Svennis.3852 Member ✭✭✭

    If we've found a way to put elder dragon's to sleep, it's certainly possible Cantha did as well. As we've seen, dragon minions are still active even when their master is not fully active.

    I think the title is more metaphor. 'End of Dragons' could just signify the end of their power in Tyria vs their literal end. The suggestion that it is the end of the Dragon Empire could work, as could marking the end of this old dragon cycle. It's clearly vague enough to have several meanings that we can't really parse at this moment.

    I do hope the DSD hasn't been killed off screen though. It's been my most anticipated dragon, and missing out on the eldritch horror vibes it has seemed to exude from the little info we have, I will be sad to have that unceremoniously dumped. It will depend on the quality of the story I suppose, but it'll be a bummer.

  • Jimbru.6014Jimbru.6014 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    Unless the studio has embraced right wing ethno-nationalism, Cantha is no longer a xenophobic country, at least not completely. Cantha and its people are portrayed favorably. Perhaps Canthans put away their racial prejudices to face a common threat just as Tyrians did.

    I imagine that they'll still be xenophobic, but not to the point of "we will kill any non-Canthan that tries to enter". I imagine it'd be a "you're not like, but you are tolerated because even if non-human, you are diplomats from a foreign nation and we do not want open war" (unless, of course, open war is what brings us to Cantha - though given the title, I'm doubtful).

    It's been over 150 years. Usoku's generation is long gone. I imagine the reactions to non-humans from Canthans today will be more like the cautious curiosity we saw in Elona during PoF. "Oh wow! Plant people! Little people! And big furry...ummm...people too, I guess!"

  • Jimbru.6014Jimbru.6014 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Svennis.3852 said:
    I do hope the DSD hasn't been killed off screen though. It's been my most anticipated dragon, and missing out on the eldritch horror vibes it has seemed to exude from the little info we have, I will be sad to have that unceremoniously dumped. It will depend on the quality of the story I suppose, but it'll be a bummer.

    I have a feeling that when we finally get the big reveal on the DSD, it will be the single most terrifying thing in GW2 since Scarlet's attack on Lion's Arch. Possibly ever.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 26, 2020

    @Jimbru.6014 said:
    It's been over 150 years. Usoku's generation is long gone.

    That's not how humans work. Japan remained in a state of self isolation for 214 years(which is what the Canthan isolationism seemingly parallels), and would have continued to do so had America not used threats of force to make them open again. Once you enter an isolationist mindset, it can easily last centuries.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ThatOddOne.4387 said:
    I do really like the theory that Cantha has already defeated the DSD. It's a nice twist. Plus avoids retreading the same old 'defeat an elder dragon' story steps.

    If both Kuunavang and Albax have taken portions of the DSD's power, then it could quite well be a set-up for a Yin and Yang story.

    I'm not too big a fan of this since the sea dragon has been built up so much as a mystery for all these years.
    Would suck if we finally get onto a story about it and it's already dead.. and we never even got to see it, that would be a big loss since the dragons are this game's main antagonists.

  • ThatOddOne.4387ThatOddOne.4387 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 26, 2020

    I don't agree. There's only so many iterations of the same story that can be done before it's boring and predictable, and we're even going through the unpredictable options at the moment with already existing Elder Dragons.

  • Psientist.6437Psientist.6437 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 26, 2020

    Hard to imagine Aurene not noticing the death of an Elder Dragon. If the DSD is killed by Canthans, then ThatOddOne offers the best speculation; their death occurs in the future. Having the DSD be killed in the background and giving it away in a release announcement would certainly qualify as an approach to building and resolving suspense.

    all primes work and not tearing down has value
    ready purrlayer @ any parsed feels enhance the value of something that is already worth everything
    what other chordal approach but penultimate singing along with other quantum cuddle clocks

  • Psientist.6437Psientist.6437 Member ✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Jimbru.6014 said:
    It's been over 150 years. Usoku's generation is long gone.

    That's not how humans work. Japan remained in a state of self isolation for 214 years(which is what the Canthan isolationism seemingly parallels), and would have continued to do so had America not used threats of force to make them open again. Once you enter an isolationist mindset, it can easily last centuries.

    True, but the DSD could provide a similar demand for change. I would consider defeating pathological xenophobia and ethno-nationalism a more powerful display of Canthan courage than defeating the DSD. Besides, is the studio really willing to try and sell Asian themed xenophobia to an Asian market?

    all primes work and not tearing down has value
    ready purrlayer @ any parsed feels enhance the value of something that is already worth everything
    what other chordal approach but penultimate singing along with other quantum cuddle clocks

  • ThatOddOne.4387ThatOddOne.4387 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 27, 2020

    Or Aurene simply isn't omniscient, can't tell the DSD's power has changed hands, or does not deem it as something she needs to bother Tyria with to say. I still think distance is a massive factor in detecting anything. But yes, the DSD being killed 'shortly', relatively speaking, and not already dead is a solution.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Psientist.6437 said:
    Hard to imagine Aurene not noticing the death of an Elder Dragon. If the DSD is killed by Canthans, then ThatOddOne offers the best speculation; their death occurs in the future. Having the DSD be killed in the background and giving it away in a release announcement would certainly qualify as an approach to building and resolving suspense.

    Perhaps Cantha learned to subjugate the DSD, maybe even recently.

  • Svennis.3852Svennis.3852 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 27, 2020

    It's also possible the DSD is capable of cooperating with mortals similarly to Jormag.

    EDIT: For all we know, Cantha has given the DSD free reign of their waters without resistance so long as they do not threaten Canthan ships/lives. The DSD keeps anyone from crossing into their seas, feeding into their isolationism and everyone is happy.

    Just one idea of many.

  • @Bast.7253 said:
    As far as the Leviathan bit goes, isn't there a leviathan skeleton in the Durmond Priory implying it to be a dead minion of the deep sea dragon? I'll have to go in game but that's what I was pulling from on that.

    Oh you're referring to the Tyrian leviathans before, not the sea wurm leviathans of GW1?

    No, the giant fish are not implied to be deep sea dragon minions - there is an asura in Straits of Devastation that says the leviathans are an ancient species dating back to the previous dragonrise. But nothing links them to being dragon minions of any kind.

    @EdwinLi.1284 said:

    @ThatOddOne.4387 said:
    I do really like the theory that Cantha has already defeated the DSD. It's a nice twist. Plus avoids retreading the same old 'defeat an elder dragon' story steps.

    If both Kuunavang and Albax have taken portions of the DSD's power, then it could quite well be a set-up for a Yin and Yang story.

    ya it seems even WoodenPotatoes is siding with the possibility that the reason why we never seen the DSD is because it was already defeated in Cantha by the Canthan Empire.

    Though if this is so then we have to ask how, when, and if they have their own Commander or not.

    Thing is, without massive retcons, the "when" has to be post Season 3... Which would then negate the whole "the reason why we never seen the DSD".

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Psientist.6437Psientist.6437 Member ✭✭✭

    Looking at the video with fresh eyes....

    The male voice sounds prepared to go and fight an immortal being in the defense of mortals; Kuunavang sounds as though she is unwilling. The bottom dragon in the logo looks more like an Elder dragon, the top dragon looks younger. The dragons are arranged in a cycle. Perhaps we learned the most important parts about the plot in season 2 and HoT and we are on the long coast to the end. I hope not, but that is simply my taste.

    With the line "They built new lives on the very thing that sought to end theirs", Kuunavang is most likely referring to the Jade Sea and Echovald Forest after they were transformed by the Jade Wind. It is very weak evidence for the DSD's death.

    all primes work and not tearing down has value
    ready purrlayer @ any parsed feels enhance the value of something that is already worth everything
    what other chordal approach but penultimate singing along with other quantum cuddle clocks