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Kuunavang and the Voice

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  • Tanith.5264Tanith.5264 Member ✭✭✭

    @Psientist.6437 said:
    Looking at the video with fresh eyes....

    The male voice sounds prepared to go and fight an immortal being in the defense of mortals; Kuunavang sounds as though she is unwilling. The bottom dragon in the logo looks more like an Elder dragon, the top dragon looks younger. The dragons are arranged in a cycle. Perhaps we learned the most important parts about the plot in season 2 and HoT and we are on the long coast to the end. I hope not, but that is simply my taste.

    With the line "They built new lives on the very thing that sought to end theirs", Kuunavang is most likely referring to the Jade Sea and Echovald Forest after they were transformed by the Jade Wind. It is very weak evidence for the DSD's death.

    That was my assumption as well. Also, the line "Mortals are little flames...brilliant, hot, and gone" is rather telling. I interpret that as "The mortals are very determined, but they still need my help." Whether the mortals wish it or not.

    What male voice, by the way? The only two voices I hear are both distinctly female...Kunny, and whoever she's arguing with.

  • Psientist.6437Psientist.6437 Member ✭✭✭

    @Tanith.5264 said:

    @Psientist.6437 said:
    Looking at the video with fresh eyes....

    The male voice sounds prepared to go and fight an immortal being in the defense of mortals; Kuunavang sounds as though she is unwilling. The bottom dragon in the logo looks more like an Elder dragon, the top dragon looks younger. The dragons are arranged in a cycle. Perhaps we learned the most important parts about the plot in season 2 and HoT and we are on the long coast to the end. I hope not, but that is simply my taste.

    With the line "They built new lives on the very thing that sought to end theirs", Kuunavang is most likely referring to the Jade Sea and Echovald Forest after they were transformed by the Jade Wind. It is very weak evidence for the DSD's death.

    That was my assumption as well. Also, the line "Mortals are little flames...brilliant, hot, and gone" is rather telling. I interpret that as "The mortals are very determined, but they still need my help." Whether the mortals wish it or not.

    What male voice, by the way? The only two voices I hear are both distinctly female...Kunny, and whoever she's arguing with.

    The second voice sounds male to me but their gender isn't significant. Mysterious voice works as well.

    I would go even further and say the Mysterious voice values mortality and possibly sees immortality as somewhat corrupt or lacking. I am still holding out hope that the cycle is reborn without needing immortal Elder beings. Let dragons be dragons without having to be responsible for the All, without having to isolate themselves from mortals.

    all primes work and not tearing down has value
    ready purrlayer @ any parsed feels enhance the value of something that is already worth everything
    what other chordal approach but penultimate singing along with other quantum cuddle clocks

  • Svennis.3852Svennis.3852 Member ✭✭✭

    The voice sounds more masculine to me, but there's definitely an androgynous tinge to it (if nothing else evident by the fact that myriad peoples are attributing different genders to it). I could see them going in any direction for the character behind it - male, female, or non-binary all feel plausible.

  • Tanith.5264Tanith.5264 Member ✭✭✭

    More significant than the gender to me is the argument that the other voice is making ("They need me"). Sounds identical to the things we've heard Jormag say.

    Earlier I watched WP's video speculating on all this, and between him, the convos on this forum, and my guildmates' theorycrafting I confess to being totally bumfuzzled now.

    Which is the dragons is in charge of bumfuzzlement? Or is that still Lyssa's turf? :)

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 27, 2020

    One thing I feel about the trailer is that neither voice seems hostile, or to have negative intent, which is why I don't think the mysterious voice is another dragon. Even Jormag's speech has always had obvious hostile undertones and vocal shifts.

    If the voice turns out to be Lyssa, then the line "Those who face eternity easily forget what a lifetime means. What an ending means" could refer to the other human gods, and their dispassionate response to the Elder Dragons. Lyssa was stated all the way back in vanilla to be the one closest to humanity, staying with them to help them forget their troubled past, and the other gods having to forcibly command her to go to Arah once it was complete.

  • Svennis.3852Svennis.3852 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 27, 2020

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    One thing I feel about the trailer is that neither voice seems hostile, or to have negative intent, which is why I don't think the mysterious voice is another dragon. Even Jormag's speech has always had obvious hostile undertones and vocal shifts.

    If the voice turns out to be Lyssa, then the line "Those who face eternity easily forget what a lifetime means. What an ending means" could refer to the other human gods, and their dispassionate response to the Elder Dragons. Lyssa was stated all the way back in vanilla to be the one closest to humanity, staying with them to help them forget their troubled past, and the other gods having to forcibly command her to go to Arah once it was complete.

    Yeah, if either of these were antagonists, we would know it. GW2 doesn't do vague, and this video is full of color, light, positive vibes. It is a pretty easy line to draw that these two are benevolent entities, or at the very least that they have respect and appreciation for short-lived mortals. In GW1, Kuunavang was demonstrably friendly to mortals and aided the heroes of Factions in their quest to stop Shiro (going so far as to give them magical boons). So based off her history and the tone of this teaser, it wouldn't make any sense for her or the other voice to be bad guys or dubiously aligned.

    On the official EoDs page on the GW2 site, the video specifically refers to these two as "ancient voices" reflecting on the world. If it's not another dragon, there's a limited pool of sapient beings around that really have the capacity to be ancient, which typically refers to things from the very distant past (ancient Greece, ancient Egypt) when it's not exaggerating a person's age. We know there are a couple other saltspray dragons in canon, and there could've been more we didn't meet in GW1. My gut tells me it is another dragon in this video, but who knows? I can't wait for more information.

    EDIT: Potentially ancient beings off the top of my head - dragons, ghosts, exalted, forgotten, gods, liches (if another besides Joko exists), and some mortals can obtain longevity (Livia, a necromancer). There's also beings like Razah who are born from the mist, and likely don't experience time similarly to mortals. So I suppose there's a great deal to draw upon when we're discussing possibly 'ancient' beings, though a dragon seems most straightforward.

    EDIT2: I would love it if this second voice could be Brother Mhenlo. He was native to Cantha, and we've yet to discover what happened to him post-GW1. He's been speculated before as a prime replacement for Balthazar (who was stripped of his godhood well before PoF). 250~ years ago isn't really 'ancient' though, so I'm not sure a newer god would make as much sense to describe that way (though I suppose he could have become something else besides a god, like a ghost).

  • Psientist.6437Psientist.6437 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 27, 2020

    I watched WP's video. He talks about Canthans rebuilding their lives on top of the Jade Sea without making the obvious connection to Kuunavang's line "they built new lives on the very thing that sought to end theirs". As Konig mentions earlier, the pipes WP describes as dragons are identical to pipes we see in GW.

    I think we can believe the narrative lead when they say the Mysterious Voice belongs to a new character. It isn't Lyssa. I like the theory that it is Kralkatorik's mother. If we approach the overall story as Aurene's hero journey with the Commander's hero journey nested within, the Mother of Dragons is the wise mentor who sets her on the right path. If so, Aurene may be do for a big kitten up. Perhaps she convinces everyone that a replacement for Jormag is unnecessary because she is the Prismatic Elder Dragon of Light and her grandfather said she is one of a kind.

    all primes work and not tearing down has value
    ready purrlayer @ any parsed feels enhance the value of something that is already worth everything
    what other chordal approach but penultimate singing along with other quantum cuddle clocks

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Psientist.6437 said:
    I watched WP's video. He talks about Canthans rebuilding their lives on top of the Jade Sea without making the obvious connection to Kuunavang's line "they built new lives on the very thing that sought to end theirs". As Konig mentions earlier, the pipes WP describes as dragons are identical to pipes we see in GW.

    I think we can believe the narrative lead when they say the Mysterious Voice belongs to a new character. It isn't Lyssa. I like the theory that it is Kralkatorik's mother. If we approach the overall story as Aurene's hero journey with the Commander's hero journey nested within, the Mother of Dragons is the wise mentor who sets her on the right path. If so, Aurene may be do for a big kitten up. Perhaps she convinces everyone that a replacement for Jormag is unnecessary because she is the Prismatic Elder Dragon of Light and her grandfather said she is one of a kind.

    Just like the all shown in The Machine, the centre sphere that represents Tyria, could also represent the mother dragon too

  • Psientist.6437Psientist.6437 Member ✭✭✭

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Psientist.6437 said:
    I watched WP's video. He talks about Canthans rebuilding their lives on top of the Jade Sea without making the obvious connection to Kuunavang's line "they built new lives on the very thing that sought to end theirs". As Konig mentions earlier, the pipes WP describes as dragons are identical to pipes we see in GW.

    I think we can believe the narrative lead when they say the Mysterious Voice belongs to a new character. It isn't Lyssa. I like the theory that it is Kralkatorik's mother. If we approach the overall story as Aurene's hero journey with the Commander's hero journey nested within, the Mother of Dragons is the wise mentor who sets her on the right path. If so, Aurene may be do for a big kitten up. Perhaps she convinces everyone that a replacement for Jormag is unnecessary because she is the Prismatic Elder Dragon of Light and her grandfather said she is one of a kind.

    Just like the all shown in The Machine, the centre sphere that represents Tyria, could also represent the mother dragon too

    Or (please, please, please Arenanet) it represents all that remains of the natural form of the All before it was corrupted by the Elder Dragons into the six sphere abomination. Primordius is curled around it, jealously gate keeping the flow magic like "too big to fail banks" gate keep the flow of money. If we can get to it, we can transform the All back into its distributed ledger configuration. If the Mother of Dragons and her Dodd Frank configuration must fall, then long live the Mother of Dragons.

    all primes work and not tearing down has value
    ready purrlayer @ any parsed feels enhance the value of something that is already worth everything
    what other chordal approach but penultimate singing along with other quantum cuddle clocks

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 27, 2020

    @Psientist.6437 said:
    I think we can believe the narrative lead when they say the Mysterious Voice belongs to a new character. It isn't Lyssa.

    Anet has used the term "new character" to refer to characters we had already heard about, but had never seen. And we have never seen Lyssa. By your argument it couldn't be Kralk's mother either because she isn't a new character, as she was mentioned back in LWS4.

    Not saying its either, but the phrase "new character" doesn't disqualify either of them.

  • Psientist.6437Psientist.6437 Member ✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Psientist.6437 said:
    I think we can believe the narrative lead when they say the Mysterious Voice belongs to a new character. It isn't Lyssa.

    Anet has used the term "new character" to refer to characters we had already heard about, but had never seen. And we have never seen Lyssa. By your argument it couldn't be Kralk's mother either because she isn't a new character, as she was mentioned back in LWS4.

    Not saying its either, but the phrase "new character" doesn't disqualify either of them.

    kitten they're sneeky. I swear, writers act like it is their job to make things up.

    all primes work and not tearing down has value
    ready purrlayer @ any parsed feels enhance the value of something that is already worth everything
    what other chordal approach but penultimate singing along with other quantum cuddle clocks

  • Bast.7253Bast.7253 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Psientist.6437 said:
    I think we can believe the narrative lead when they say the Mysterious Voice belongs to a new character. It isn't Lyssa.

    Anet has used the term "new character" to refer to characters we had already heard about, but had never seen. And we have never seen Lyssa. By your argument it couldn't be Kralk's mother either because she isn't a new character, as she was mentioned back in LWS4.

    Not saying its either, but the phrase "new character" doesn't disqualify either of them.

    I think the main reason why it seems HIGHLY unlikely to be Lyssa is that she doesn't really have anything to do with Kunavang. Why would she be talking about the cycle of the elder dragons or advocating for it to Kunavang when she may very well have given Balthazar her mirror in his pursuit to kill Kralk?

    Lyssa just doesn't make any sense. I think people are reading too much into the purple mist. I get that she's been hinted at for quite awhile now, but I feel like they're setting that up for after this expansion. With the revised Utopia lore and this potentially revising the cycle, it may make room for the gods to reenter the picture as a whole. Lyssa potentially being the introductory character.

    As far as the "End of Dragons, The Cycle Reborn" bit, it may not even be eluding to the elder dragons or dragons at all. It may be hinting at other things being able to take the place that the Elder Dragons are currently taking. I.e., The Pale Tree, the spirits of the wild, Aurene and perhaps some other dragons. Maybe even something entirely new that we discover in Cantha, especially given all the weirdness that was going on in Echovald with the Wardens and whatever magic they were using.

    Who knows, but Lyssa doesn't really make sense, especially in terms of this trailer.

    The mother thing is a lot more plausible. Saying she isn't "new" because the idea of her existence was mentioned in one line of dialogue feels like an extreme grasping of straws. But no, we haven't seen either one. Unless the above poster was going with the theory that Jenna = Lyssa, (or one part of Lyssa) which could fit I suppose but I'm sure there are a dozen reasons why that doesn't fit and this post will be picked apart sentence by sentence explaining why at some point.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 28, 2020

    @Bast.7253 said:
    I think the main reason why it seems HIGHLY unlikely to be Lyssa is that she doesn't really have anything to do with Kunavang. Why would she be talking about the cycle of the elder dragons or advocating for it to Kunavang when she may very well have given Balthazar her mirror in his pursuit to kill Kralk?

    Kuunavang is an incredibly ancient dragon-entity whose history stretches back into the unknown past. She is essentially the Canthan version of Glint. And much like how Glint talked to the human gods, I find it almost certain the human gods talked to Kuunavang as well. Asking what does Lyssa, or any of the gods for that matter, have to do with Kuunavang is like asking what do they have to do with Glint. They would have obviously known each other. Especially when we consider that, outside of some early transfers they brought to Orr, the human gods brought most of humanity to Cantha first. They probably had some sort of deal going on so she wouldn't attack humanity.

    If Kuunavang is in any way connected to the Elder Dragons, either being related to Bubbles like Glint was to Kralk, or being a viable Elder Dragon replacement entity, Lyssa wold obviously go to her for assistance for much the same reason Balthazar went after Vlast and Aurene. If you are going to combat an Elder Dragon, having something related to said Dragon is helpful. Not to mention Kuunavang is just really powerful on her own.

    Also, the voice doesn't advocate for the cycle of Elder Dragons in the trailer.

    Lyssa just doesn't make any sense. I think people are reading too much into the purple mist. I get that she's been hinted at for quite awhile now, but I feel like they're setting that up for after this expansion. With the revised Utopia lore and this potentially revising the cycle, it may make room for the gods to reenter the picture as a whole. Lyssa potentially being the introductory character.

    I doubt the gods as a whole are going to renter the picture. Balthazar is dead, and we have direct confirmation that Kormir, Grenth, and Melandru, have left, and have abandoned their followers and realms, with zero suggestion there is anything else at play for them. That just leaves Lyssa and Dwayna, and we know Lyssa is up to something.

    As it stands, the Icebrood Saga is set to wrap up all the big Norn and Charr story beats, and with the Cantha expansion and LW content, that will cover the last major human kingdom on Tyria. The only thing left after Cantha is to deal with Primordus, which will probably deal with the Asura story beats, with some dwarven and skritt lore thrown in.

    All the other major and minor plot points have really been done at this point.

    • The human/centaur was is over, with a decisive win for humanity.
    • The White Mantle/bandit/sepratist storylines are wrapped up, with the Mantle being crushed, and Lazarus dead.
    • The Flame Legion plot is over, now that Efhram has brought the Flame Legion back into the greater Charr society.
    • The Charr civil war/Renegade plot is done now that Bangar has been defeated. all thats left is to do something about how the Charr leadership will go moving forward
    • Icebrood Saga is dealing with all the Asgeir/missing spirits/Svanir/tooth prophecy stuff for the Norn
    • The Sylvari had their big story with Heart of Thorns
    • Path of Fire and its LW content dealt with Elona, Joko, the Sunspears, and all that

    If they are going to do something with Lyssa its either the expansion, or the connected Canthan LW season. There just not anywhere else for it to fit in, since there's really not much left to do in the first place besides Cantha and the Primrodus/Asura stuff.

  • Bast.7253Bast.7253 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Bast.7253 said:
    I think the main reason why it seems HIGHLY unlikely to be Lyssa is that she doesn't really have anything to do with Kunavang. Why would she be talking about the cycle of the elder dragons or advocating for it to Kunavang when she may very well have given Balthazar her mirror in his pursuit to kill Kralk?

    Kuunavang is an incredibly ancient dragon-entity whose history stretches back into the unknown past. She is essentially the Canthan version of Glint. And much like how Glint talked to the human gods, I find it almost certain the human gods talked to Kuunavang as well. Asking what does Lyssa, or any of the gods for that matter, have to do with Kuunavang is like asking what do they have to do with Glint. They would have obviously known each other. Especially when we consider that, outside of some early transfers they brought to Orr, the human gods brought most of humanity to Cantha first. They probably had some sort of deal going on so she wouldn't attack humanity.

    If Kuunavang is in any way connected to the Elder Dragons, either being related to Bubbles like Glint was to Kralk, or being a viable Elder Dragon replacement entity, Lyssa wold obviously go to her for assistance for much the same reason Balthazar went after Vlast and Aurene. If you are going to combat an Elder Dragon, having something related to said Dragon is helpful. Not to mention Kuunavang is just really powerful on her own.

    Also, the voice doesn't advocate for the cycle of Elder Dragons in the trailer.

    Lyssa just doesn't make any sense. I think people are reading too much into the purple mist. I get that she's been hinted at for quite awhile now, but I feel like they're setting that up for after this expansion. With the revised Utopia lore and this potentially revising the cycle, it may make room for the gods to reenter the picture as a whole. Lyssa potentially being the introductory character.

    I doubt the gods as a whole are going to renter the picture. Balthazar is dead, and we have direct confirmation that Kormir, Grenth, and Melandru, have left, and have abandoned their followers and realms, with zero suggestion there is anything else at play for them. That just leaves Lyssa and Dwayna, and we know Lyssa is up to something.

    As it stands, the Icebrood Saga is set to wrap up all the big Norn and Charr story beats, and with the Cantha expansion and LW content, that will cover the last major human kingdom on Tyria. The only thing left after Cantha is to deal with Primordus, which will probably deal with the Asura story beats, with some dwarven and skritt lore thrown in.

    All the other major and minor plot points have really been done at this point.

    • The human/centaur was is over, with a decisive win for humanity.
    • The White Mantle/bandit/sepratist storylines are wrapped up, with the Mantle being crushed, and Lazarus dead.
    • The Flame Legion plot is over, now that Efhram has brought the Flame Legion back into the greater Charr society.
    • The Charr civil war/Renegade plot is done now that Bangar has been defeated. all thats left is to do something about how the Charr leadership will go moving forward
    • Icebrood Saga is dealing with all the Asgeir/missing spirits/Svanir/tooth prophecy stuff for the Norn
    • The Sylvari had their big story with Heart of Thorns
    • Path of Fire and its LW content dealt with Elona, Joko, the Sunspears, and all that

    If they are going to do something with Lyssa its either the expansion, or the connected Canthan LW season. There just not anywhere else for it to fit in, since there's really not much left to do in the first place besides Cantha and the Primrodus/Asura stuff.

    You're right, the voice doesn't specifically mention the cycle of the elder dragons. Kunavang is insisting that mortal's lives don't have to be brilliant, hot, and then gone. The other voice implies that they do. That that mortality is necessary to make life meaningful.

    They could:
    1. Be opposing Kunavang who is actually the "enemy" here in the sense that they want to brand humanity in an effort to make them immortal.
    2. Be implying the necessity of the elder dragons and their destructive role, because it keeps them seeing the value of life.
    3. Something else entirely, and it's a different kind of immortal being. But of all the "immortal" beings we have in Cantha, Lyssa seems the least likely.

    Going from Path of Fire, where our main focus is on Balthazar, straight to Lyssa, seems equally unlikely.
    Also, the name of the expansion is End of Dragons and talking about the rebirth of the cycle, so it's logical to assume that what they're actually talking about in the trailer is the cycle of the elder dragons.

    And there's plenty to do with Lyssa outside of the expansion. I agree that it could come in the form of the living story afterwards, leading up to another expansion (if there is another expansion). They revised a bunch of Utopian lore in the art book and they've been pretty heavily dealing with the mists for the past two living story seasons. Plenty of opportunity for the gods to show up and for them to tie in Lyssa later on.

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 28, 2020

    @Bast.7253 said:

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Bast.7253 said:
    I think the main reason why it seems HIGHLY unlikely to be Lyssa is that she doesn't really have anything to do with Kunavang. Why would she be talking about the cycle of the elder dragons or advocating for it to Kunavang when she may very well have given Balthazar her mirror in his pursuit to kill Kralk?

    Kuunavang is an incredibly ancient dragon-entity whose history stretches back into the unknown past. She is essentially the Canthan version of Glint. And much like how Glint talked to the human gods, I find it almost certain the human gods talked to Kuunavang as well. Asking what does Lyssa, or any of the gods for that matter, have to do with Kuunavang is like asking what do they have to do with Glint. They would have obviously known each other. Especially when we consider that, outside of some early transfers they brought to Orr, the human gods brought most of humanity to Cantha first. They probably had some sort of deal going on so she wouldn't attack humanity.

    If Kuunavang is in any way connected to the Elder Dragons, either being related to Bubbles like Glint was to Kralk, or being a viable Elder Dragon replacement entity, Lyssa wold obviously go to her for assistance for much the same reason Balthazar went after Vlast and Aurene. If you are going to combat an Elder Dragon, having something related to said Dragon is helpful. Not to mention Kuunavang is just really powerful on her own.

    Also, the voice doesn't advocate for the cycle of Elder Dragons in the trailer.

    Lyssa just doesn't make any sense. I think people are reading too much into the purple mist. I get that she's been hinted at for quite awhile now, but I feel like they're setting that up for after this expansion. With the revised Utopia lore and this potentially revising the cycle, it may make room for the gods to reenter the picture as a whole. Lyssa potentially being the introductory character.

    I doubt the gods as a whole are going to renter the picture. Balthazar is dead, and we have direct confirmation that Kormir, Grenth, and Melandru, have left, and have abandoned their followers and realms, with zero suggestion there is anything else at play for them. That just leaves Lyssa and Dwayna, and we know Lyssa is up to something.

    As it stands, the Icebrood Saga is set to wrap up all the big Norn and Charr story beats, and with the Cantha expansion and LW content, that will cover the last major human kingdom on Tyria. The only thing left after Cantha is to deal with Primordus, which will probably deal with the Asura story beats, with some dwarven and skritt lore thrown in.

    All the other major and minor plot points have really been done at this point.

    • The human/centaur was is over, with a decisive win for humanity.
    • The White Mantle/bandit/sepratist storylines are wrapped up, with the Mantle being crushed, and Lazarus dead.
    • The Flame Legion plot is over, now that Efhram has brought the Flame Legion back into the greater Charr society.
    • The Charr civil war/Renegade plot is done now that Bangar has been defeated. all thats left is to do something about how the Charr leadership will go moving forward
    • Icebrood Saga is dealing with all the Asgeir/missing spirits/Svanir/tooth prophecy stuff for the Norn
    • The Sylvari had their big story with Heart of Thorns
    • Path of Fire and its LW content dealt with Elona, Joko, the Sunspears, and all that

    If they are going to do something with Lyssa its either the expansion, or the connected Canthan LW season. There just not anywhere else for it to fit in, since there's really not much left to do in the first place besides Cantha and the Primrodus/Asura stuff.

    You're right, the voice doesn't specifically mention the cycle of the elder dragons. Kunavang is insisting that mortal's lives don't have to be brilliant, hot, and then gone. The other voice implies that they do. That that mortality is necessary to make life meaningful.

    They could:
    1. Be opposing Kunavang who is actually the "enemy" here in the sense that they want to brand humanity in an effort to make them immortal.
    2. Be implying the necessity of the elder dragons and their destructive role, because it keeps them seeing the value of life.
    3. Something else entirely, and it's a different kind of immortal being. But of all the "immortal" beings we have in Cantha, Lyssa seems the least likely.

    Going from Path of Fire, where our main focus is on Balthazar, straight to Lyssa, seems equally unlikely.
    Also, the name of the expansion is End of Dragons and talking about the rebirth of the cycle, so it's logical to assume that what they're actually talking about in the trailer is the cycle of the elder dragons.

    And there's plenty to do with Lyssa outside of the expansion. I agree that it could come in the form of the living story afterwards, leading up to another expansion (if there is another expansion). They revised a bunch of Utopian lore in the art book and they've been pretty heavily dealing with the mists for the past two living story seasons. Plenty of opportunity for the gods to show up and for them to tie in Lyssa later on.

    Could the voice be an Envoy? Mortality is kind of their thing, without it they‘d be out of a job.
    My 2nd guess would have been a new Oracle of the Mists talking to Kuunavang.

    The teaser is full of purple mist. I thought that could be a connection to the spirit realm we see in Nahpui Quarters during the Weh No Su mission.

    You have a heart of gold. Don't let them take it from you.
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  • ThatOddOne.4387ThatOddOne.4387 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 28, 2020

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    I doubt the gods as a whole are going to renter the picture. Balthazar is dead, and we have direct confirmation that Kormir, Grenth, and Melandru, have left, and have abandoned their followers and realms, with zero suggestion there is anything else at play for them. That just leaves Lyssa and Dwayna, and we know Lyssa is up to something.

    Whilst I also don't think the Gods are going to be involved in this expansion, this is still not accurate. ArenaNet have said we still haven't seen the last of the Gods, and there absolutely is a suggestion as to what they are doing - Looking for a new world.

  • Psientist.6437Psientist.6437 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 28, 2020

    @Bast.7253 said:

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Bast.7253 said:
    I think the main reason why it seems HIGHLY unlikely to be Lyssa is that she doesn't really have anything to do with Kunavang. Why would she be talking about the cycle of the elder dragons or advocating for it to Kunavang when she may very well have given Balthazar her mirror in his pursuit to kill Kralk?

    Kuunavang is an incredibly ancient dragon-entity whose history stretches back into the unknown past. She is essentially the Canthan version of Glint. And much like how Glint talked to the human gods, I find it almost certain the human gods talked to Kuunavang as well. Asking what does Lyssa, or any of the gods for that matter, have to do with Kuunavang is like asking what do they have to do with Glint. They would have obviously known each other. Especially when we consider that, outside of some early transfers they brought to Orr, the human gods brought most of humanity to Cantha first. They probably had some sort of deal going on so she wouldn't attack humanity.

    If Kuunavang is in any way connected to the Elder Dragons, either being related to Bubbles like Glint was to Kralk, or being a viable Elder Dragon replacement entity, Lyssa wold obviously go to her for assistance for much the same reason Balthazar went after Vlast and Aurene. If you are going to combat an Elder Dragon, having something related to said Dragon is helpful. Not to mention Kuunavang is just really powerful on her own.

    Also, the voice doesn't advocate for the cycle of Elder Dragons in the trailer.

    Lyssa just doesn't make any sense. I think people are reading too much into the purple mist. I get that she's been hinted at for quite awhile now, but I feel like they're setting that up for after this expansion. With the revised Utopia lore and this potentially revising the cycle, it may make room for the gods to reenter the picture as a whole. Lyssa potentially being the introductory character.

    I doubt the gods as a whole are going to renter the picture. Balthazar is dead, and we have direct confirmation that Kormir, Grenth, and Melandru, have left, and have abandoned their followers and realms, with zero suggestion there is anything else at play for them. That just leaves Lyssa and Dwayna, and we know Lyssa is up to something.

    As it stands, the Icebrood Saga is set to wrap up all the big Norn and Charr story beats, and with the Cantha expansion and LW content, that will cover the last major human kingdom on Tyria. The only thing left after Cantha is to deal with Primordus, which will probably deal with the Asura story beats, with some dwarven and skritt lore thrown in.

    All the other major and minor plot points have really been done at this point.

    • The human/centaur was is over, with a decisive win for humanity.
    • The White Mantle/bandit/sepratist storylines are wrapped up, with the Mantle being crushed, and Lazarus dead.
    • The Flame Legion plot is over, now that Efhram has brought the Flame Legion back into the greater Charr society.
    • The Charr civil war/Renegade plot is done now that Bangar has been defeated. all thats left is to do something about how the Charr leadership will go moving forward
    • Icebrood Saga is dealing with all the Asgeir/missing spirits/Svanir/tooth prophecy stuff for the Norn
    • The Sylvari had their big story with Heart of Thorns
    • Path of Fire and its LW content dealt with Elona, Joko, the Sunspears, and all that

    If they are going to do something with Lyssa its either the expansion, or the connected Canthan LW season. There just not anywhere else for it to fit in, since there's really not much left to do in the first place besides Cantha and the Primrodus/Asura stuff.

    You're right, the voice doesn't specifically mention the cycle of the elder dragons. Kunavang is insisting that mortal's lives don't have to be brilliant, hot, and then gone. The other voice implies that they do. That that mortality is necessary to make life meaningful.

    They could:
    1. Be opposing Kunavang who is actually the "enemy" here in the sense that they want to brand humanity in an effort to make them immortal.
    2. Be implying the necessity of the elder dragons and their destructive role, because it keeps them seeing the value of life.
    3. Something else entirely, and it's a different kind of immortal being. But of all the "immortal" beings we have in Cantha, Lyssa seems the least likely.

    Going from Path of Fire, where our main focus is on Balthazar, straight to Lyssa, seems equally unlikely.
    Also, the name of the expansion is End of Dragons and talking about the rebirth of the cycle, so it's logical to assume that what they're actually talking about in the trailer is the cycle of the elder dragons.

    And there's plenty to do with Lyssa outside of the expansion. I agree that it could come in the form of the living story afterwards, leading up to another expansion (if there is another expansion). They revised a bunch of Utopian lore in the art book and they've been pretty heavily dealing with the mists for the past two living story seasons. Plenty of opportunity for the gods to show up and for them to tie in Lyssa later on.

    In the spirit of mildly competitive speculation....

    I think you are misinterpreting Kuunavang, she is defending mortality. The line about brilliant, hot and gone is a standard way to describe mortals favorably in fantasy. For instance, the dialogue of the movie Clash of the Titans is mostly versions of this line. Before that line, she is clearly speaking favorably of mortals. Her line about not needing to be like this follows a gap in the conversation. We can fill in the gap using the Mysterious voice's line about having to go and help because they need me. In the gap they were likely discussing ways to defend mortals from immortal beings, the Elder dragons. Kuunavang and the Mysterious voice appear to be on the same side.

    all primes work and not tearing down has value
    ready purrlayer @ any parsed feels enhance the value of something that is already worth everything
    what other chordal approach but penultimate singing along with other quantum cuddle clocks

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 28, 2020

    @Bast.7253 said:
    You're right, the voice doesn't specifically mention the cycle of the elder dragons. Kunavang is insisting that mortal's lives don't have to be brilliant, hot, and then gone. The other voice implies that they do. That that mortality is necessary to make life meaningful.

    Neither Kuunavang or the Voice say this either. Kuunavang's line of "it doesn't have to be this way" has no direct connection to any specific thing. For all we know from the trailer Kuunavang is saying to Lyssa she doesn't have to do whatever she is doing(just an example)

    Going from Path of Fire, where our main focus is on Balthazar, straight to Lyssa, seems equally unlikely.

    Well we wouldn't be going straight to Lyssa, we have had all of LWS4, and Icebrood Saga, which had jack all to do with the gods, in between.

    They revised a bunch of Utopian lore in the art book and they've been pretty heavily dealing with the mists for the past two living story seasons. Plenty of opportunity for the gods to show up and for them to tie in Lyssa later on.

    I think this is wishing too much for Utopia to come back as a thing when I don't see it happening.

    @ThatOddOne.4387 said:
    Whilst I also don't think the Gods are going to be involved in this expansion, this is still not accurate. ArenaNet have said we still haven't seen the last of the Gods, and there absolutely is a suggestion as to what they are doing - Looking for a new world.

    Please read the thread before responding next time, hell, read the quoted post before you respond next time. Nothing you said relates to what I said.

    Obviously the god story isn't done if Lyssa comes back. I said the gods wouldn't be returning as a whole, as in all of them. Also the book that claims they are looking for a new world was written by a crazed fanatic. If the gods were actually doing this one would think they would have told people instead of just leaving Tyria, their realms, and everyone who follows them, without saying a word.

    @Psientist.6437 said:
    I think you are misinterpreting Kuunavang, she is defending mortality. The line about brilliant, hot and gone is a standard way to describe mortals favorably in fantasy.

    That line was said by the other voice, not Kuunavang though.

  • Bast.7253Bast.7253 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Bast.7253 said:
    You're right, the voice doesn't specifically mention the cycle of the elder dragons. Kunavang is insisting that mortal's lives don't have to be brilliant, hot, and then gone. The other voice implies that they do. That that mortality is necessary to make life meaningful.

    Neither Kuunavang or the Voice say this either. Kuunavang's line of "it doesn't have to be this way" has no direct connection to any specific thing. For all we know from the trailer Kuunavang is saying to Lyssa she doesn't have to do whatever she is doing(just an example)

    Going from Path of Fire, where our main focus is on Balthazar, straight to Lyssa, seems equally unlikely.

    Well we wouldn't be going straight to Lyssa, we have had all of LWS4, and Icebrood Saga, which had jack all to do with the gods, in between.

    They revised a bunch of Utopian lore in the art book and they've been pretty heavily dealing with the mists for the past two living story seasons. Plenty of opportunity for the gods to show up and for them to tie in Lyssa later on.

    I think this is wishing too much for Utopia to come back as a thing when I don't see it happening.

    @ThatOddOne.4387 said:
    Whilst I also don't think the Gods are going to be involved in this expansion, this is still not accurate. ArenaNet have said we still haven't seen the last of the Gods, and there absolutely is a suggestion as to what they are doing - Looking for a new world.

    Please read the thread before responding next time, hell, read the quoted post before you respond next time. Nothing you said relates to what I said.

    Obviously the god story isn't done if Lyssa comes back. I said the gods wouldn't be returning as a whole, as in all of them. Also the book that claims they are looking for a new world was written by a crazed fanatic. If the gods were actually doing this one would think they would have told people instead of just leaving Tyria, their realms, and everyone who follows them, without saying a word.

    @Psientist.6437 said:
    I think you are misinterpreting Kuunavang, she is defending mortality. The line about brilliant, hot and gone is a standard way to describe mortals favorably in fantasy.

    That line was said by the other voice, not Kuunavang though.

    You seem to be pretty stuck on this idea of Lyssa. So what's her reasoning? Why now? Why in Cantha? What would her plan have to do with Kunavang? I mean, I do like the idea of her being involved in a potentially water themed expansion given water is one of her inherited domains, but if we take the lines of dialogue that the other voice says: (Despite the voice sounding male to me and several others)

    Transcript:

    (Kunavang):
    This land...
    It's a monument to mortal resillience.
    They built new lives upon the very thing..
    That sought to end theirs.

    (Mysterious Voice):
    Mortals are little flames.
    Brilliant, hot, then gone.
    Those who face eternity easily forget...
    What a lifetime means.
    What an ending means.

    (Kunavang)
    You know it doesn't have to be this way.

    (Mysterious voice)
    No, Kunavang, it does.
    They need me.

    1. The mysterious voice is talking about "mortals", not just "humans" but presumably all mortal races.
    2. The voice is talking about eternity, but also an "ending."

    What ending would Lyssa be referring to?

    My interpretation, mortals is referring to all the mortal races. The cycle of the elder dragons seems most plausible as ending, to me, would imply the ending of civilizations.

    Reading this, it seems pretty obvious that the mysterious voice is advocating against immortality, implying either:

    "They need me to fulfill the role that I do, to remind them of their mortality and give their lives meaning."
    "They need me to prevent you from allowing them immortality."

    The latter seems a bit off after rewatching.

    So what would her goal be? What do you think her plan could be, if it were Lyssa?

    Balthazar was pretty straight forward, he felt betrayed and he wanted power. But what's Lyssa's objective here? Assuming she gifted the mirror and he didn't just snipe it from her reliquary, why would she knowingly give Balthazar her mirror and help him on his mission just to involve herself after his defeat? And then, ignoring the part about "ending" presumably show somekind of compassion for mortals even if it's talking about giving their life meaning by reminding them of their mortality?

    I'm just not getting the logic behind assuming that this is Lyssa, from a story perspective, or why Kunavang would have any interest/say in their plan. I mean, Lyssa is presumably still a full-powered god, so why would she even be debating with a lesser dragon or explaining her reasoning?

  • ThatOddOne.4387ThatOddOne.4387 Member ✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    Obviously the god story isn't done if Lyssa comes back. I said the gods wouldn't be returning as a whole, as in all of them. Also the book that claims they are looking for a new world was written by a crazed fanatic. If the gods were actually doing this one would think they would have told people instead of just leaving Tyria, their realms, and everyone who follows them, without saying a word.

    That is still a 'suggestion' as to what they are doing, and in the absence of any others, it's as good as any we've received, don't be obtuse.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 28, 2020

    @Bast.7253 said:
    You seem to be pretty stuck on this idea of Lyssa. So what's her reasoning? Why now? Why in Cantha? What would her plan have to do with Kunavang? I mean, I do like the idea of her being involved in a potentially water themed expansion given water is one of her inherited domains, but if we take the lines of dialogue that the other voice says: (Despite the voice sounding male to me and several others)

    I don't care either way. All I have done is point out why most of these arguments that it isn't her don't really add up. I've made it clear it could be anyone since the get go.

    To answer your questions
    1. Whats her reasoning? Lyssa has been stated since vanilla to be the one closest to mortals. While all the other gods were off building their great holy city of Arah, it was Lyssa who walked among the people and used her powers to help them forget whatever troubled past they had before arriving on Tyria. And when construction Arah was done, the other gods had to force her to leave the mortals behind to go live there. During Path of Fire, Kormir states that "even Lyssa" was(supposedly) in favor of leaving Tyria to emphasize that, even the one who cared the most, was(supposedly) OK with leaving. Her reasoning would simply be she has always cared about mortals more then the other gods did. Something that, if it is her in the trailer, is reflected in her dialog.
    2. Why now? Well, it isn't just now. Its been noted that Balthazar didn't curse Lyssa like he did the other gods at the end of Path of Fire. Lyssa was likely helping him even back then, and was probably the one who told Balthazar about the mirror in her reliquary that Balthazar used to masquerade as Lazarus. She's been involved since LWS3, which was several years ago now. She was just in the background.
    3. Why Cantha? Because even back in Guild Wars 1 it was noted that Cantha had, by far, the most developed nation, and the most powerful army of any human nation. Its also the last remaining major bastion of humanity that the game hasn't covered. If you want an army, Cantha can provide the largest one.
    4. What would her plan have to do with Kuunavang. Well Kuuavang is an incredibly ancient and powerful dragon creature similar to Glint, and likely has information about the Elder Dragons like Glint did. If Kuunavang has said information, or if shes a viable Elder Dragon replacement, she would be a great ally in fighting the Dragons, for all the same reasons Glint and Aurene were.

    What ending would Lyssa be referring to?

    Read that whole section of dialog again. Her dialog is "Those who face eternity easily forget... What a lifetime means. What an ending means." The "ending" she is referring to is that of life. The voice is saying that ancient entities like the gods, and dragons, who can live forever, forget what the meaning of living and dying is.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Before jumping to too many conclusions regarding Lyssa, it is worth noting that in Kormir's journal, she mentions that Lyssa was mocking Kormir for staying behind. Which implies that, whatever Lyssa's past thoughts might have been in Arah, she's now in favour of leaving. (Keeping in mind that it was also Lyssa that was the spokesperson for the "this world is yours now" speech near the end of Nightfall). It's possible that events since the gods were in Arah (particularly the destruction that happened during the war with Abaddon) has caused her to shift perspective.

    That said, it's also possible, particularly given that it's Lyssa, that her mockery of Kormir was intended to disguise her actual feelings on the matter, and possibly to get Kormir out of the way so she could proceed with her own plans. Still, it is worth noting that there are inconsistencies with the narrative that Lyssa still holds the views she did over a thousand years ago.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    Before jumping to too many conclusions regarding Lyssa, it is worth noting that in Kormir's journal, she mentions that Lyssa was mocking Kormir for staying behind. Which implies that, whatever Lyssa's past thoughts might have been in Arah, she's now in favour of leaving. (Keeping in mind that it was also Lyssa that was the spokesperson for the "this world is yours now" speech near the end of Nightfall). It's possible that events since the gods were in Arah (particularly the destruction that happened during the war with Abaddon) has caused her to shift perspective.

    That said, it's also possible, particularly given that it's Lyssa, that her mockery of Kormir was intended to disguise her actual feelings on the matter, and possibly to get Kormir out of the way so she could proceed with her own plans. Still, it is worth noting that there are inconsistencies with the narrative that Lyssa still holds the views she did over a thousand years ago.

    Or Anet could play on the lore that Lyssa is two people, the twins Llya and Lyss, and one of them was OK with leaving, but the other wasn't.

  • Bast.7253Bast.7253 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Bast.7253 said:
    You seem to be pretty stuck on this idea of Lyssa. So what's her reasoning? Why now? Why in Cantha? What would her plan have to do with Kunavang? I mean, I do like the idea of her being involved in a potentially water themed expansion given water is one of her inherited domains, but if we take the lines of dialogue that the other voice says: (Despite the voice sounding male to me and several others)

    I don't care either way. All I have done is point out why most of these arguments that it isn't her don't really add up. I've made it clear it could be anyone since the get go.

    To answer your questions
    1. Whats her reasoning? Lyssa has been stated since vanilla to be the one closest to mortals. While all the other gods were off building their great holy city of Arah, it was Lyssa who walked among the people and used her powers to help them forget whatever troubled past they had before arriving on Tyria. And when construction Arah was done, the other gods had to force her to leave the mortals behind to go live there. During Path of Fire, Kormir states that "even Lyssa" was(supposedly) in favor of leaving Tyria to emphasize that, even the one who cared the most, was(supposedly) OK with leaving. Her reasoning would simply be she has always cared about mortals more then the other gods did. Something that, if it is her in the trailer, is reflected in her dialog.
    2. Why now? Well, it isn't just now. Its been noted that Balthazar didn't curse Lyssa like he did the other gods at the end of Path of Fire. Lyssa was likely helping him even back then, and was probably the one who told Balthazar about the mirror in her reliquary that Balthazar used to masquerade as Lazarus. She's been involved since LWS3, which was several years ago now. She was just in the background.
    3. Why Cantha? Because even back in Guild Wars 1 it was noted that Cantha had, by far, the most developed nation, and the most powerful army of any human nation. Its also the last remaining major bastion of humanity that the game hasn't covered. If you want an army, Cantha can provide the largest one.
    4. What would her plan have to do with Kuunavang. Well Kuuavang is an incredibly ancient and powerful dragon creature similar to Glint, and likely has information about the Elder Dragons like Glint did. If Kuunavang has said information, or if shes a viable Elder Dragon replacement, she would be a great ally in fighting the Dragons, for all the same reasons Glint and Aurene were.

    What ending would Lyssa be referring to?

    Read that whole section of dialog again. Her dialog is "Those who face eternity easily forget... What a lifetime means. What an ending means." The "ending" she is referring to is that of life. The voice is saying that ancient entities like the gods, and dragons, who can live forever, forget what the meaning of living and dying is.

    1. Humanity, sure, but ALL mortals? I suppose there were some non-human races in Arah.
    2. Why act directly now though? And again, why aid Balthazar in his journey to aid Kralk knowing that it could have resulted in the end of Tyria? So much for the mortal races... Unless there's some larger plan involved and she's having to step in now for some reason. But do you really think they're going to be able to cover that elaborate of a plot in what.. 10 hours of episodes and a few story instances?
    3. We also have no idea what's happened to Cantha since isolation. They had the largest army at the time, but we have no idea what's happened since then. Even still, why wouldn't have Balthazar pursued gaining his army the same way? If he just wanted an army, why use the exalted to create the forged? The only reason I can think of would be if they had immunity to Kralk's corruption. Seems like he could have used quite a few of his human followers to further his agenda though, and despite that he still chose to hid his true identity. Why though? It's not like the humans would have been exiled from the pantheon because the other gods weren't around to say otherwise.
    4. Sure, Lyssa gets insight from Kunavang on how to combat the elder dragons. But again, the gods left because of the havoc they were afraid of causing from going to battle with them. Surely, at this point, she would know that killing one would cause mass destruction/completely destroy what's left to the balance of Tyria. So if she is seeking to do this, it's certainly not out of good will or concern for the mortal races. And it's really not all that different from the exact same course Balthazar took.

    After watching WP's latest video he mentioned someone else's comment about the dialogue, specifically "they."

    Implying that "they" could be referencing the elder dragons, or even some other immortal entity. "They need me" could be indicating that whoever is speaking needs to correct/alter that immortality, to give them meaning. So, to the possibility that this is Lyssa, it could be understandable because she either 1. Wants to be the end of dragons and their immortality, correct their mindset and stop the cycle of destruction by forcing them to empathize with the mortal races. 2. She's not talking about the dragons and is instead talking about the gods. Perhaps she's upset with the others for leaving, or feels betrayed by them similarly to Balthazar. She feels they've been neglectful of humanity and wants to force them to empathize.

    On those notes, I'd imagine it would have to be number 1, because it's not really a conversation Kunavang would have any insight into or even care.

    If it's not Lyssa, "Mother" and DSD don't really seem like great fits. I suppose it could be something else entirely upset with the cycle of dragons and their immortality, but again, how does having this conversation fit with Kunavang?

    It seems too soon to rule out anybody, it just feels like Lyssa would be a bit more of a stretch. I do like the idea that she could be involved though and the logo and aesthetics of the trailer, in retrospect, do feel like visual cues outside of the "purple mist" everywhere. I.e., the general color scheme, the humans running in the video look similar to mesmer illusions that just sort of shatter and disentegrate, the duality of the logo and (despite being dragons) look like it could be a reflection of the same dragon, and the general predictable water theme.

  • @Bast.7253 said:
    Lyssa just doesn't make any sense. I think people are reading too much into the purple mist. I get that she's been hinted at for quite awhile now, but I feel like they're setting that up for after this expansion. With the revised Utopia lore and this potentially revising the cycle, it may make room for the gods to reenter the picture as a whole. Lyssa potentially being the introductory character.

    Definitely agree there, on every bit of it.

    I'm thinking the second character is going to be some other dragon scion. The dialogue definitely implies, to me, to be two not-yet-but-could-be-elder lesser dragons talking.

    I'm still not convinced that "non-dragons can take the place of Elder Dragons" though. The Pale Tree is possible, given it's a dragon champion. But Spirits of the Wild? I'm doubtful they could take the burden either singularly or collectively.

    Maybe even something entirely new that we discover in Cantha, especially given all the weirdness that was going on in Echovald with the Wardens and whatever magic they were using.

    The wardens are tied to Urgoz who was a forest spirit, a nature spirit of the Echovald Forest - this puts Urgoz (and Zhu Hanuku, a sea spirit) in similar - if not the same - category as the Spirits of the Wild and Nulfastu.

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    I doubt the gods as a whole are going to renter the picture. Balthazar is dead, and we have direct confirmation that Kormir, Grenth, and Melandru, have left, and have abandoned their followers and realms, with zero suggestion there is anything else at play for them. That just leaves Lyssa and Dwayna, and we know Lyssa is up to something.

    ANet did specifically state that the gods' plot isn't over in GW2 - specifically gods, plural - and this was after Path of Fire.

    Keep in mind, that the gods left because of the Elder Dragons. No more Elder Dragon threat, no more reason for the gods to go looking for a world without Elder Dragons to - supposedly - bring Tyrians to.

    Also, we got direct confirmation that Kormir was the last god to leave Tyria. So Lyssa and Dwayna left a long time ago.

    And we do not know Lyssa is up to something. People suspect Lyssa is.

    All the other major and minor plot points have really been done at this point.

    • The human/centaur was is over, with a decisive win for humanity.

    Technically speaking, the Icebrood Saga trailer shows that the human/centaur war is not over. They lost their leader, but Season 3 showed that Harathi and Modniir were still warring, and the trailer shows the centaurs are still enslaving.

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    Before jumping to too many conclusions regarding Lyssa, it is worth noting that in Kormir's journal, she mentions that Lyssa was mocking Kormir for staying behind. Which implies that, whatever Lyssa's past thoughts might have been in Arah, she's now in favour of leaving. (Keeping in mind that it was also Lyssa that was the spokesperson for the "this world is yours now" speech near the end of Nightfall). It's possible that events since the gods were in Arah (particularly the destruction that happened during the war with Abaddon) has caused her to shift perspective.

    That said, it's also possible, particularly given that it's Lyssa, that her mockery of Kormir was intended to disguise her actual feelings on the matter, and possibly to get Kormir out of the way so she could proceed with her own plans. Still, it is worth noting that there are inconsistencies with the narrative that Lyssa still holds the views she did over a thousand years ago.

    Then there's also the matter that everything that makes us doubt Lyssa ultimately comes from a) Balthazar robbing reliquaries and b) Kormir. And A is the opposite of incriminating despite common argument otherwise in this community.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 30, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    I'm still not convinced that "non-dragons can take the place of Elder Dragons" though. The Pale Tree is possible, given it's a dragon champion. But Spirits of the Wild? I'm doubtful they could take the burden either singularly or collectively.

    Before IBS I would have agreed about the Spirits, but IBS has rather consistently been pushing the notion that the Spirits are giant balls of magic, so much so that they are effectively limitless sources of it. If there is anything in Guild Wars canon that could take on the energy of an Elder Dragon, without being destroyed by it, its them. Not saying that they will do so.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    ANet did specifically state that the gods' plot isn't over in GW2 - specifically gods, plural - and this was after Path of Fire.

    Yes, the "gods' plot", which includes Balthazar's plot, and could possibly involve Lyssa's plot in some hypothetical story. You could have only those two appear, meaning, we could only see one more god, and that would fit the criteria of the "gods' plot", as we would have two gods, justifying the use of a plural. This is how the English language works Konig. And that applies for if ANY one god appeared at some point later in the story, and that was the only god to ever appear. This ignoring that the gods' plot in GW2 has already featured both Balthazar and Kormir, meaning we have already reached the plural, and only further proving the point we could only have one more appear, and still be in the plural. Not to mention things like the Hall of Chains raid, and the appearance of fragments of several god realms, being added since Path of fire, continuing the plot of the gods without having to show us them directly.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Also, we got direct confirmation that Kormir was the last god to leave Tyria. So Lyssa and Dwayna left a long time ago.

    From Kormir herself, which honestly means nothing as any of the gods could have left, and then secretly came back while keeping a low profile. That's the most non-evidence possible, and a classic trope.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Technically speaking, the Icebrood Saga trailer shows that the human/centaur war is not over. They lost their leader, but Season 3 showed that Harathi and Modniir were still warring, and the trailer shows the centaurs are still enslaving.

    Konig, do you understand what war is? I am going to guess not, because the fact that centaurs are still enslaving humans, or still have enslaved humans from before, has literally absolutely to do with the human/centaur war, and neither does the centaur's presence in the northern region of Lake Doric, which is around the border between Kryta and centaur lands anyways. War is a very specific kind of conflict between two groups, and you can still have conflict between said two groups after the war is over, without being in another war. The human/Charr war is long over, but there are still some Charr who attack humans, doesn't mean the humans and Charr are at war. Not all conflict between two groups is a war. Even with the Human/centaur war being over there's still going to be centaur bands attacking Kryta, and centaur's aren't going to just release all of the humans they had enslaved. Just like they were doing that BEFORE the human/centaur war started.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Then there's also the matter that everything that makes us doubt Lyssa ultimately comes from a) Balthazar robbing reliquaries and b) Kormir. And A is the opposite of incriminating despite common argument otherwise in this community.

    and c) Balthazar cursed the names of all the gods, except Lyssa, as he died, and Anet has confirmed there is a reason for that. Which would tie back into point a, under the assumption Lyssa told him about it and suggested he use it, or something similar in terms of assistance. You choosing to intentionally ignore the biggest piece of evidence behind the theory doesn't mean it doesn't exist, nor does it erase the dev's comments about it.

    You do not have the right to attempt to rewrite history, stop trying to do so constantly.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Bast.7253 said:
    Lyssa just doesn't make any sense. I think people are reading too much into the purple mist. I get that she's been hinted at for quite awhile now, but I feel like they're setting that up for after this expansion. With the revised Utopia lore and this potentially revising the cycle, it may make room for the gods to reenter the picture as a whole. Lyssa potentially being the introductory character.

    Definitely agree there, on every bit of it.

    I'm thinking the second character is going to be some other dragon scion. The dialogue definitely implies, to me, to be two not-yet-but-could-be-elder lesser dragons talking.

    I'm still not convinced that "non-dragons can take the place of Elder Dragons" though. The Pale Tree is possible, given it's a dragon champion. But Spirits of the Wild? I'm doubtful they could take the burden either singularly or collectively.

    Maybe even something entirely new that we discover in Cantha, especially given all the weirdness that was going on in Echovald with the Wardens and whatever magic they were using.

    The wardens are tied to Urgoz who was a forest spirit, a nature spirit of the Echovald Forest - this puts Urgoz (and Zhu Hanuku, a sea spirit) in similar - if not the same - category as the Spirits of the Wild and Nulfastu.

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    I doubt the gods as a whole are going to renter the picture. Balthazar is dead, and we have direct confirmation that Kormir, Grenth, and Melandru, have left, and have abandoned their followers and realms, with zero suggestion there is anything else at play for them. That just leaves Lyssa and Dwayna, and we know Lyssa is up to something.

    ANet did specifically state that the gods' plot isn't over in GW2 - specifically gods, plural - and this was after Path of Fire.

    Keep in mind, that the gods left because of the Elder Dragons. No more Elder Dragon threat, no more reason for the gods to go looking for a world without Elder Dragons to - supposedly - bring Tyrians to.

    Also, we got direct confirmation that Kormir was the last god to leave Tyria. So Lyssa and Dwayna left a long time ago.

    And we do not know Lyssa is up to something. People suspect Lyssa is.

    All the other major and minor plot points have really been done at this point.

    • The human/centaur was is over, with a decisive win for humanity.

    Technically speaking, the Icebrood Saga trailer shows that the human/centaur war is not over. They lost their leader, but Season 3 showed that Harathi and Modniir were still warring, and the trailer shows the centaurs are still enslaving.

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    Before jumping to too many conclusions regarding Lyssa, it is worth noting that in Kormir's journal, she mentions that Lyssa was mocking Kormir for staying behind. Which implies that, whatever Lyssa's past thoughts might have been in Arah, she's now in favour of leaving. (Keeping in mind that it was also Lyssa that was the spokesperson for the "this world is yours now" speech near the end of Nightfall). It's possible that events since the gods were in Arah (particularly the destruction that happened during the war with Abaddon) has caused her to shift perspective.

    That said, it's also possible, particularly given that it's Lyssa, that her mockery of Kormir was intended to disguise her actual feelings on the matter, and possibly to get Kormir out of the way so she could proceed with her own plans. Still, it is worth noting that there are inconsistencies with the narrative that Lyssa still holds the views she did over a thousand years ago.

    Then there's also the matter that everything that makes us doubt Lyssa ultimately comes from a) Balthazar robbing reliquaries and b) Kormir. And A is the opposite of incriminating despite common argument otherwise in this community.

    Well according to Kormir in PoF, the gods can be fooled by Lyssa’s illusions, so its entirely possible that she stayed behind in hiding in a human form in Cantha which given the scriptures was a common tactic that Lyssa used. Perhaps Lyssa also wanted to deal with the dragons like Balthazar, however had different methods of doing such.

    Lyssa is also an enigma too because of duality, where she could have many contradictions as well as illusions on her side. Given how Anet “bread crumbed” Balthazar with very subtle hints, this purple mist could be what they are doing for Lyssa.

  • Bast.7253Bast.7253 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Bast.7253 said:
    Lyssa just doesn't make any sense. I think people are reading too much into the purple mist. I get that she's been hinted at for quite awhile now, but I feel like they're setting that up for after this expansion. With the revised Utopia lore and this potentially revising the cycle, it may make room for the gods to reenter the picture as a whole. Lyssa potentially being the introductory character.

    Definitely agree there, on every bit of it.

    I'm thinking the second character is going to be some other dragon scion. The dialogue definitely implies, to me, to be two not-yet-but-could-be-elder lesser dragons talking.

    I'm still not convinced that "non-dragons can take the place of Elder Dragons" though. The Pale Tree is possible, given it's a dragon champion. But Spirits of the Wild? I'm doubtful they could take the burden either singularly or collectively.

    Maybe even something entirely new that we discover in Cantha, especially given all the weirdness that was going on in Echovald with the Wardens and whatever magic they were using.

    The wardens are tied to Urgoz who was a forest spirit, a nature spirit of the Echovald Forest - this puts Urgoz (and Zhu Hanuku, a sea spirit) in similar - if not the same - category as the Spirits of the Wild and Nulfastu.

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    I doubt the gods as a whole are going to renter the picture. Balthazar is dead, and we have direct confirmation that Kormir, Grenth, and Melandru, have left, and have abandoned their followers and realms, with zero suggestion there is anything else at play for them. That just leaves Lyssa and Dwayna, and we know Lyssa is up to something.

    ANet did specifically state that the gods' plot isn't over in GW2 - specifically gods, plural - and this was after Path of Fire.

    Keep in mind, that the gods left because of the Elder Dragons. No more Elder Dragon threat, no more reason for the gods to go looking for a world without Elder Dragons to - supposedly - bring Tyrians to.

    Also, we got direct confirmation that Kormir was the last god to leave Tyria. So Lyssa and Dwayna left a long time ago.

    And we do not know Lyssa is up to something. People suspect Lyssa is.

    All the other major and minor plot points have really been done at this point.

    • The human/centaur was is over, with a decisive win for humanity.

    Technically speaking, the Icebrood Saga trailer shows that the human/centaur war is not over. They lost their leader, but Season 3 showed that Harathi and Modniir were still warring, and the trailer shows the centaurs are still enslaving.

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    Before jumping to too many conclusions regarding Lyssa, it is worth noting that in Kormir's journal, she mentions that Lyssa was mocking Kormir for staying behind. Which implies that, whatever Lyssa's past thoughts might have been in Arah, she's now in favour of leaving. (Keeping in mind that it was also Lyssa that was the spokesperson for the "this world is yours now" speech near the end of Nightfall). It's possible that events since the gods were in Arah (particularly the destruction that happened during the war with Abaddon) has caused her to shift perspective.

    That said, it's also possible, particularly given that it's Lyssa, that her mockery of Kormir was intended to disguise her actual feelings on the matter, and possibly to get Kormir out of the way so she could proceed with her own plans. Still, it is worth noting that there are inconsistencies with the narrative that Lyssa still holds the views she did over a thousand years ago.

    Then there's also the matter that everything that makes us doubt Lyssa ultimately comes from a) Balthazar robbing reliquaries and b) Kormir. And A is the opposite of incriminating despite common argument otherwise in this community.

    Well according to Kormir in PoF, the gods can be fooled by Lyssa’s illusions, so its entirely possible that she stayed behind in hiding in a human form in Cantha which given the scriptures was a common tactic that Lyssa used. Perhaps Lyssa also wanted to deal with the dragons like Balthazar, however had different methods of doing such.

    Lyssa is also an enigma too because of duality, where she could have many contradictions as well as illusions on her side. Given how Anet “bread crumbed” Balthazar with very subtle hints, this purple mist could be what they are doing for Lyssa.

    Maybe, but I feel like the breadcrumb of a vague buff on an npc's bar is a little different than littering an entire teaser with purple. :lol:

    I guess the charred marks of the white mantle at the bloodstone's pedestal could count too.

    But yeah, there are other things in the teaser that could hint to Lyssa, like the illuion-looking humanoids running (but I think that's just a neat art technique) and the general duality of the logo looking like a dragon and a reflection of the dragon (though more likely two different dragons on opposing sides.)

    I just think it's unlikely unless she's a character that is going to either introduce us to Cantha somehow or be introduced slowly as a character leading into the next season while we're in Cantha. In either case I'm not sure the purple mist would really be appropriate as whatever it is tends to be pretty front and center.

    I'm also leaning more towards this being a vision that we witness through Aurene at the scrying pool, given the introduction being these glimmering multi-colored lights on the sides as we fly through the city. Reminds me of Aurene doing her light speed flight like she did in Grothmar during the opening ceremony before branding the devourer.
    If that's the case, it could be the long distant past, or the past soon after the defeat of Shiro after they were "building their new lives." Personally I don't think the building new lives part is in reference to the Jade Wind or the Affliction because neither were really sentient things that "sought" to destroy them, so much as after effects of someone else that was manipulated.

    But anyway, who knows. There's certainly no shortage of possibilities.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Bast.7253 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Bast.7253 said:
    Lyssa just doesn't make any sense. I think people are reading too much into the purple mist. I get that she's been hinted at for quite awhile now, but I feel like they're setting that up for after this expansion. With the revised Utopia lore and this potentially revising the cycle, it may make room for the gods to reenter the picture as a whole. Lyssa potentially being the introductory character.

    Definitely agree there, on every bit of it.

    I'm thinking the second character is going to be some other dragon scion. The dialogue definitely implies, to me, to be two not-yet-but-could-be-elder lesser dragons talking.

    I'm still not convinced that "non-dragons can take the place of Elder Dragons" though. The Pale Tree is possible, given it's a dragon champion. But Spirits of the Wild? I'm doubtful they could take the burden either singularly or collectively.

    Maybe even something entirely new that we discover in Cantha, especially given all the weirdness that was going on in Echovald with the Wardens and whatever magic they were using.

    The wardens are tied to Urgoz who was a forest spirit, a nature spirit of the Echovald Forest - this puts Urgoz (and Zhu Hanuku, a sea spirit) in similar - if not the same - category as the Spirits of the Wild and Nulfastu.

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    I doubt the gods as a whole are going to renter the picture. Balthazar is dead, and we have direct confirmation that Kormir, Grenth, and Melandru, have left, and have abandoned their followers and realms, with zero suggestion there is anything else at play for them. That just leaves Lyssa and Dwayna, and we know Lyssa is up to something.

    ANet did specifically state that the gods' plot isn't over in GW2 - specifically gods, plural - and this was after Path of Fire.

    Keep in mind, that the gods left because of the Elder Dragons. No more Elder Dragon threat, no more reason for the gods to go looking for a world without Elder Dragons to - supposedly - bring Tyrians to.

    Also, we got direct confirmation that Kormir was the last god to leave Tyria. So Lyssa and Dwayna left a long time ago.

    And we do not know Lyssa is up to something. People suspect Lyssa is.

    All the other major and minor plot points have really been done at this point.

    • The human/centaur was is over, with a decisive win for humanity.

    Technically speaking, the Icebrood Saga trailer shows that the human/centaur war is not over. They lost their leader, but Season 3 showed that Harathi and Modniir were still warring, and the trailer shows the centaurs are still enslaving.

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    Before jumping to too many conclusions regarding Lyssa, it is worth noting that in Kormir's journal, she mentions that Lyssa was mocking Kormir for staying behind. Which implies that, whatever Lyssa's past thoughts might have been in Arah, she's now in favour of leaving. (Keeping in mind that it was also Lyssa that was the spokesperson for the "this world is yours now" speech near the end of Nightfall). It's possible that events since the gods were in Arah (particularly the destruction that happened during the war with Abaddon) has caused her to shift perspective.

    That said, it's also possible, particularly given that it's Lyssa, that her mockery of Kormir was intended to disguise her actual feelings on the matter, and possibly to get Kormir out of the way so she could proceed with her own plans. Still, it is worth noting that there are inconsistencies with the narrative that Lyssa still holds the views she did over a thousand years ago.

    Then there's also the matter that everything that makes us doubt Lyssa ultimately comes from a) Balthazar robbing reliquaries and b) Kormir. And A is the opposite of incriminating despite common argument otherwise in this community.

    Well according to Kormir in PoF, the gods can be fooled by Lyssa’s illusions, so its entirely possible that she stayed behind in hiding in a human form in Cantha which given the scriptures was a common tactic that Lyssa used. Perhaps Lyssa also wanted to deal with the dragons like Balthazar, however had different methods of doing such.

    Lyssa is also an enigma too because of duality, where she could have many contradictions as well as illusions on her side. Given how Anet “bread crumbed” Balthazar with very subtle hints, this purple mist could be what they are doing for Lyssa.

    Maybe, but I feel like the breadcrumb of a vague buff on an npc's bar is a little different than littering an entire teaser with purple. :lol:

    I guess the charred marks of the white mantle at the bloodstone's pedestal could count too.

    But yeah, there are other things in the teaser that could hint to Lyssa, like the illuion-looking humanoids running (but I think that's just a neat art technique) and the general duality of the logo looking like a dragon and a reflection of the dragon (though more likely two different dragons on opposing sides.)

    I just think it's unlikely unless she's a character that is going to either introduce us to Cantha somehow or be introduced slowly as a character leading into the next season while we're in Cantha. In either case I'm not sure the purple mist would really be appropriate as whatever it is tends to be pretty front and center.

    I'm also leaning more towards this being a vision that we witness through Aurene at the scrying pool, given the introduction being these glimmering multi-colored lights on the sides as we fly through the city. Reminds me of Aurene doing her light speed flight like she did in Grothmar during the opening ceremony before branding the devourer.
    If that's the case, it could be the long distant past, or the past soon after the defeat of Shiro after they were "building their new lives." Personally I don't think the building new lives part is in reference to the Jade Wind or the Affliction because neither were really sentient things that "sought" to destroy them, so much as after effects of someone else that was manipulated.

    But anyway, who knows. There's certainly no shortage of possibilities.

    If you look back at the flashpoint trailer it’s also littered with fire, which could represent Primordus, however it never really stated where we would be going in the trailer and was focussed on who Lazarus really was. Lazarus used fire and spoke of divine light as well as the abilities he used. They also snuck in a Balthazar shield in one of the cutscenes.

    I just find it strange to have purple mist in the trailer at all, since it’s clearly deliberate as well as an introduction to a “new” character.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 30, 2020

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    Not to mention things like the Hall of Chains raid, and the appearance of fragments of several god realms, being added since Path of fire, continuing the plot of the gods without having to show us them directly.

    Those are hardly continuation of the gods' plots. Especially so for Dragonfall.

    And also rather hypocritical of you, since that has weaker ties of "continuing plot" than the Renegades' involvement with Bangar and Icebrood Saga, which you vehemently denied there being a continued plot of Renegades previously.

    From Kormir herself, which honestly means nothing as any of the gods could have left, and then secretly came back while keeping a low profile. That's the most non-evidence possible, and a classic trope.

    If you trust Kormir's statements - as you seem to - then she is fully aware of the ongoings of the actions of Tyria aside from using illusion magic. Which would deny Dwayna as coming back.

    Technically speaking, the Icebrood Saga trailer shows that the human/centaur war is not over. They lost their leader, but Season 3 showed that Harathi and Modniir were still warring, and the trailer shows the centaurs are still enslaving.

    Konig, do you understand what war is? I am going to guess not, because the fact that centaurs are still enslaving humans, or still have enslaved humans from before, has literally absolutely to do with the human/centaur war, and neither does the centaur's presence in the northern region of Lake Doric, which is around the border between Kryta and centaur lands anyways. War is a very specific kind of conflict between two groups, and you can still have conflict between said two groups after the war is over, without being in another war. The human/Charr war is long over, but there are still some Charr who attack humans, doesn't mean the humans and Charr are at war. Not all conflict between two groups is a war. Even with the Human/centaur war being over there's still going to be centaur bands attacking Kryta, and centaur's aren't going to just release all of the humans they had enslaved. Just like they were doing that BEFORE the human/centaur war started.

    I'm aware of what a war is, I'm also aware that simply assassinating the leader does not end wars. There is nothing to indicate that the Centaur War has ended, especially since it has waged on since 300 AE with ebbs and flows in activity since then.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Then there's also the matter that everything that makes us doubt Lyssa ultimately comes from a) Balthazar robbing reliquaries and b) Kormir. And A is the opposite of incriminating despite common argument otherwise in this community.

    and c) Balthazar cursed the names of all the gods, except Lyssa, as he died, and Anet has confirmed there is a reason for that. Which would tie back into point a, under the assumption Lyssa told him about it and suggested he use it, or something similar in terms of assistance. You choosing to intentionally ignore the biggest piece of evidence behind the theory doesn't mean it doesn't exist, nor does it erase the dev's comments about it.

    You do not have the right to attempt to rewrite history, stop trying to do so constantly.

    I lump that into point A, actually. I wasn't ignoring it, nor denying it, and I knew well that ANet confirmed there's a reason for such. But that does not incriminate Lyssa in of itself. If Kormir's lying - she is the goddess of secrets after all - then that line could have any number of meanings. Even if she wasn't lying, Balthazar not cursing Lyssa could still have any number of reasons.

    I am not attempting to rewrite history. I'm just pointing out the fact that you have to make assumptions like "Lyssa told him about it and suggested he use it, or something similar in terms of assistance" for it to have a reason for being said (or rather, not said).

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Well according to Kormir in PoF, the gods can be fooled by Lyssa’s illusions, so its entirely possible that she stayed behind in hiding in a human form in Cantha which given the scriptures was a common tactic that Lyssa used. Perhaps Lyssa also wanted to deal with the dragons like Balthazar, however had different methods of doing such.

    Lyssa is also an enigma too because of duality, where she could have many contradictions as well as illusions on her side. Given how Anet “bread crumbed” Balthazar with very subtle hints, this purple mist could be what they are doing for Lyssa.

    Why Cantha, when everything going on has been happening in Central Tyria?

    Why bring in the gods in an expansion about dragons, and titled about dragons?

    All arguments I see about Lyssa being involved is more out of want, than legitimate reasons for it to happen. And every single time such has happened, the theory proves false.

    About the purple mist, I am 90% sure that if it is representing anything, it's representing Miasma, which was a purple mist from GW1. Why would it still be there? Because the entire trailer shows Cantha in the state of GW1. This is most evident in the Jade Sea, which is fully solid in the trailer, despite all lore stating it had begun to thaw 250 years ago.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    Not to mention things like the Hall of Chains raid, and the appearance of fragments of several god realms, being added since Path of fire, continuing the plot of the gods without having to show us them directly.

    Those are hardly continuation of the gods' plots. Especially so for Dragonfall.

    And also rather hypocritical of you, since that has weaker ties of "continuing plot" than the Renegades' involvement with Bangar and Icebrood Saga, which you vehemently denied there being a continued plot of Renegades previously.

    From Kormir herself, which honestly means nothing as any of the gods could have left, and then secretly came back while keeping a low profile. That's the most non-evidence possible, and a classic trope.

    If you trust Kormir's statements - as you seem to - then she is fully aware of the ongoings of the actions of Tyria aside from using illusion magic. Which would deny Dwayna as coming back.

    Technically speaking, the Icebrood Saga trailer shows that the human/centaur war is not over. They lost their leader, but Season 3 showed that Harathi and Modniir were still warring, and the trailer shows the centaurs are still enslaving.

    Konig, do you understand what war is? I am going to guess not, because the fact that centaurs are still enslaving humans, or still have enslaved humans from before, has literally absolutely to do with the human/centaur war, and neither does the centaur's presence in the northern region of Lake Doric, which is around the border between Kryta and centaur lands anyways. War is a very specific kind of conflict between two groups, and you can still have conflict between said two groups after the war is over, without being in another war. The human/Charr war is long over, but there are still some Charr who attack humans, doesn't mean the humans and Charr are at war. Not all conflict between two groups is a war. Even with the Human/centaur war being over there's still going to be centaur bands attacking Kryta, and centaur's aren't going to just release all of the humans they had enslaved. Just like they were doing that BEFORE the human/centaur war started.

    I'm aware of what a war is, I'm also aware that simply assassinating the leader does not end wars. There is nothing to indicate that the Centaur War has ended, especially since it has waged on since 300 AE with ebbs and flows in activity since then.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Then there's also the matter that everything that makes us doubt Lyssa ultimately comes from a) Balthazar robbing reliquaries and b) Kormir. And A is the opposite of incriminating despite common argument otherwise in this community.

    and c) Balthazar cursed the names of all the gods, except Lyssa, as he died, and Anet has confirmed there is a reason for that. Which would tie back into point a, under the assumption Lyssa told him about it and suggested he use it, or something similar in terms of assistance. You choosing to intentionally ignore the biggest piece of evidence behind the theory doesn't mean it doesn't exist, nor does it erase the dev's comments about it.

    You do not have the right to attempt to rewrite history, stop trying to do so constantly.

    I lump that into point A, actually. I wasn't ignoring it, nor denying it, and I knew well that ANet confirmed there's a reason for such. But that does not incriminate Lyssa in of itself. If Kormir's lying - she is the goddess of secrets after all - then that line could have any number of meanings. Even if she wasn't lying, Balthazar not cursing Lyssa could still have any number of reasons.

    I am not attempting to rewrite history. I'm just pointing out the fact that you have to make assumptions like "Lyssa told him about it and suggested he use it, or something similar in terms of assistance" for it to have a reason for being said (or rather, not said).

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Well according to Kormir in PoF, the gods can be fooled by Lyssa’s illusions, so its entirely possible that she stayed behind in hiding in a human form in Cantha which given the scriptures was a common tactic that Lyssa used. Perhaps Lyssa also wanted to deal with the dragons like Balthazar, however had different methods of doing such.

    Lyssa is also an enigma too because of duality, where she could have many contradictions as well as illusions on her side. Given how Anet “bread crumbed” Balthazar with very subtle hints, this purple mist could be what they are doing for Lyssa.

    Why Cantha, when everything going on has been happening in Central Tyria?

    Why bring in the gods in an expansion about dragons, and titled about dragons?

    All arguments I see about Lyssa being involved is more out of want, than legitimate reasons for it to happen. And every single time such has happened, the theory proves false.

    About the purple mist, I am 90% sure that if it is representing anything, it's representing Miasma, which was a purple mist from GW1. Why would it still be there? Because the entire trailer shows Cantha in the state of GW1. This is most evident in the Jade Sea, which is fully solid in the trailer, despite all lore stating it had begun to thaw 250 years ago.

    To be fair though the story can shift drastically in a single episode. When we were playing Season 3 how many figured we would be going to the Crystal Desert after Balthazar.

    Yeah, I wouldn’t mind Lyssa being in the expansion, mainly because I want that window closed from what was open in Season 3 and PoF.

    Would also explain the voice because that seems to fit as well.

  • @Tyson.5160 said:
    To be fair though the story can shift drastically in a single episode. When we were playing Season 3 how many figured we would be going to the Crystal Desert after Balthazar.

    Yeah, I wouldn’t mind Lyssa being in the expansion, mainly because I want that window closed from what was open in Season 3 and PoF.

    Would also explain the voice because that seems to fit as well.

    To be fair, the revelation of Flashpoint was very, very poorly done and is probably the only case of a drastic change in direction (aside from the very episodic Season 1). And it didn't have its name lie either - Flashpoint, One Path Ends, and Path of Fire were all very much on point for their content. End of Dragons dealing with a god? Not so much.

    And I would disagree with the voice. People have been calling it male, female, or simply androgenous. It's very much one person speaking. So it doesn't fit a double clearly female goddess. I imagine that when we get to Lyssa, she'll be speaking with an echo that sounds like two identical voices overlapped. Since they are "two who are one" and all that.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Dante.1508Dante.1508 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 31, 2020

    I think then Kuunavang could be talking to the Zodiacs. The Zodiacs were a big thing in Cantha, they were literally their gods.

  • Well, Sajuuk, since you once again prove you can't discuss lore without hostility, guess I'm done responding to you.

    @Dante.1508 said:
    I think then Kuunavang could be talking to the Zodiacs. The Zodiacs were a big thing in Cantha, they were literally their gods.

    Which Celestial would you think, then? There were at least 15.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Dante.1508Dante.1508 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 31, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Well, Sajuuk, since you once again prove you can't discuss lore without hostility, guess I'm done responding to you.

    @Dante.1508 said:
    I think then Kuunavang could be talking to the Zodiacs. The Zodiacs were a big thing in Cantha, they were literally their gods.

    Which Celestial would you think, then? There were at least 15.

    At this point its hard to say but i'd guess which ever is considered the lead or wisest.
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Celestial
    Bit of lore i guess.
    Could Be Tahmu or Kuonghsang who knows?

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 31, 2020

    @Dante.1508 said:
    I think then Kuunavang could be talking to the Zodiacs. The Zodiacs were a big thing in Cantha, they were literally their gods.

    The gods of Cantha were the 6 human gods. The Celestials were just other things they worshiped.

  • Dante.1508Dante.1508 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:
    I think then Kuunavang could be talking to the Zodiacs. The Zodiacs were a big thing in Cantha, they were literally their gods.

    The gods of Cantha were the 6 human gods. The Celestials were just other things they worshiped.

    Worshipping something by definition is a god?

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 31, 2020

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Worshipping something by definition is a god?

    Uhh no?

    Not to delve to far into real world religions, but Buddhists worship Buddha, and his teachings, but admit he isn't a god, just a guy who was really wise. Even in-game, the Norn worship the Spirits of the Wild, but also admit they don't see them as gods, just wise beings worthy of respect and worship for the wisdom and powers they give.

  • Jimbru.6014Jimbru.6014 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 31, 2020

    I'm not sure where y'all are getting the Lyssa thing. She is mentioned nowhere in the video and has always been portrayed as human and female. The Voice, which is definitely male or y'all need to have your hearing checked, is the dragon that is swirling around in the video, as it comes full face with the words, "They need me." Furthermore, the Voice is NOT the DSD, since its behavior is clearly benevolent and what little we know of the DSD is not. Perhaps a scion of the DSD and/or Kuunavang would be my guess.

  • Jimbru.6014Jimbru.6014 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Psientist.6437 said:
    The bottom dragon in the logo looks more like an Elder dragon, the top dragon looks younger. The dragons are arranged in a cycle.

    Perhaps we are simply reaching the end of this cycle of dragon awakening. It has wrought great change upon Tyria, as all the cycles have. What future cycles will hold is unknown.

    Related thought regarding Primordus: we haven't seen or heard from Primordus since LS3, and even in LS3 he wasn't a major active threat like Zhaitan or Mordremoth. If not for him being Balthazar's target -- and actually seeing him in LS3 Ep 5 -- he would have been just a bit player. Perhaps when the other EDs started getting killed and/or when the mess with Balthazar knocked the wind out of him, Primordus was smart enough to realize that the mortals of this age were a new breed. So he's decided to stay hidden underground snacking on magic and not draw hostile attention to himself, and if we did go looking for him he might offer a pretty straightforward message. "Of all the Elder Dragons, I am the one most directly tied to the physical structure of Tyria. The very ground you stand on cannot exist without me, and vice versa. You need me in the cycle of magic to continue your existence, and I would like to continue mine. Therefore I offer you a simple deal, mortals. You leave me alone, and I leave you alone. Fair enough?" That actually would be a refreshing way to deal with one of the EDs, I think.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jimbru.6014 said:
    The Voice, which is definitely male

    Most people I've seen have said its a female voice, and it sounds exactly like a female voice to me. It would have to be a very effeminate man for the voice to belong to one IMO.

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Jimbru.6014 said:
    The Voice, which is definitely male

    Most people I've seen have said its a female voice, and it sounds exactly like a female voice to me. It would have to be a very effeminate man for the voice to belong to one IMO.

    It is without question a female voice. It’s not even close to being confused with a males voice imo

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Randulf.7614 said:

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Jimbru.6014 said:
    The Voice, which is definitely male

    Most people I've seen have said its a female voice, and it sounds exactly like a female voice to me. It would have to be a very effeminate man for the voice to belong to one IMO.

    It is without question a female voice. It’s not even close to being confused with a males voice imo

    I agree, it’s a female voice

  • @Jimbru.6014 said:
    The Voice, which is definitely male or y'all need to have your hearing checked, is the dragon that is swirling around in the video, as it comes full face with the words, "They need me."

    The dragon at the end is confirmed to be Kuunavang, not the unknown character.

    As to the voice being "definitely male" - disagreed. It's definitely deeper than Kuunavang's voice, but it is in no way absolutely male. Honestly, to me it sounds like the deeper range of female voice tones more than higher male voice tone.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Svennis.3852Svennis.3852 Member ✭✭✭

    The first time I watched the trailer, I absolutely pegged that as a male voice actor. After watching/listening to the trailer a million times, I see the argument for a female VA. But honestly it would have to be a woman like Gina Davis who has a very deep voice. Even listening closely it very much skirts the gender lines which must be intentional.

    In the end it doesn't really matter. I just love the vocal quality of the second speaker. So soothing.

  • Xaylin.1860Xaylin.1860 Member ✭✭✭

    While leaning towards two females voices I wasn't 100% sure. They have released the German trailer since then and it's definitely two female voices. Even though one is still rather deep. I doubt they'd change gender for localization purposes (although, for example, the gender of Sun and Moon may differ depending on your language). Unless it's a genderless entity. Who knows? ;)

  • Bast.7253Bast.7253 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Plot twist:

    The other voice IS the DSD, and it's a two-headed dragon with a male voice, and a female voice. It's Mother AND Father.

    It's interesting that the German was is definitely two female voices though. Because I've listened to it countless times and it still seemed like it could be male to me.

    Another non-binary dragon like Jormag probably makes the most sense though. So far I guess Zhaitan, Mordremoth, and Kralk were all confirmed male?

    Primordus is... male as well right? Jormag is non-binary. I does seem odd that they wouldn't have a specifically female elder dragon? Unless that's another reason why Aurene is "unique." Not only in the way she can handle magic, but that she could be the only definitively female elder dragon. And as we don't really know how dragons reproduce, could she be the first elder dragon to birth more elder dragons?

    I mean it would seem that Glint had to come from somewhere in order to have Aurene and the others.

  • @Bast.7253 said:
    So far I guess Zhaitan, Mordremoth, and Kralk were all confirmed male?

    Primordus is... male as well right? Jormag is non-binary.

    Kralkatorrik is the only confirmed gendered Elder Dragon. And this is (almost?) exclusively by Glint, Vlast, and Aurene and those who got it from them (e.g., the Commander and Dragon's Watch).

    Zhaitan, Mordremoth, Primordus - they're usually "it" more than "he" or "she", and in the rare cases of a "he" gets used, it's more in line with how pre-social movement English users commonly used male pronouns to denote a figure of unknown or unclear gender. Jormag is technically the only exception, being viewed as male by Sons of Svanir and by extension, most norn - non-norn usually used "it" though, until Season 5 where almost everyone (except Sons of Svanir - that means, including non-Sons of Svanir norn) would use they (which has become increasingly common as the pronoun of choice for unknown/unclear/otherwise ambiguous gender). Mordremoth has a male voice actor, however, and an artificially deepened voice. So people often associate it as male.

    But technically, every Elder Dragon and their scions are mono-gendered (and thus by definition, non-binary), or as it was put back in 2010: genderless (more specifically, that they "do not have genders as Tyrians know them"). Any use of male or female pronouns tend to be for association with, or comprehension by, mortals. Which is why it's the dragons that interact most with mortals that have pronoun associations made - the crystal family, Jormag, and loosely, Mordremoth.

    IIRC, 90% of referencing Zhaitan and Mordremoth is as "the [jungle] dragon", rather than "he" or "it". Having just briefly looked through Hearts and Minds (HoT final instance), Mordremoth is only called "it", never he/him/his. Personally, given Zhaitan's roar is very high pitched, I like to believe that if it had a voice, it'd have had a female VA (or a higher-pitched male VA like our mysterious voice may be).

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Bast.7253 said:
    So far I guess Zhaitan, Mordremoth, and Kralk were all confirmed male?

    Primordus is... male as well right? Jormag is non-binary.

    Kralkatorrik is the only confirmed gendered Elder Dragon. And this is (almost?) exclusively by Glint, Vlast, and Aurene and those who got it from them (e.g., the Commander and Dragon's Watch).

    Zhaitan, Mordremoth, Primordus - they're usually "it" more than "he" or "she", and in the rare cases of a "he" gets used, it's more in line with how pre-social movement English users commonly used male pronouns to denote a figure of unknown or unclear gender. Jormag is technically the only exception, being viewed as male by Sons of Svanir and by extension, most norn - non-norn usually used "it" though, until Season 5 where almost everyone (except Sons of Svanir - that means, including non-Sons of Svanir norn) would use they (which has become increasingly common as the pronoun of choice for unknown/unclear/otherwise ambiguous gender). Mordremoth has a male voice actor, however, and an artificially deepened voice. So people often associate it as male.

    But technically, every Elder Dragon and their scions are mono-gendered (and thus by definition, non-binary), or as it was put back in 2010: genderless (more specifically, that they "do not have genders as Tyrians know them"). Any use of male or female pronouns tend to be for association with, or comprehension by, mortals. Which is why it's the dragons that interact most with mortals that have pronoun associations made - the crystal family, Jormag, and loosely, Mordremoth.

    IIRC, 90% of referencing Zhaitan and Mordremoth is as "the [jungle] dragon", rather than "he" or "it". Having just briefly looked through Hearts and Minds (HoT final instance), Mordremoth is only called "it", never he/him/his. Personally, given Zhaitan's roar is very high pitched, I like to believe that if it had a voice, it'd have had a female VA (or a higher-pitched male VA like our mysterious voice may be).

    I’ve always hoped for a a fractal where you get to play as a Risen and would hear Zhaitan’s voice as well as potentially show Zhaitan again. Would be a good way of opening up Zhaitan posthumous.