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Bubbles [possible spoilers]

Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited August 26, 2020 in Lore

The trailer ends with this shot https://guildwars2.staticwars.com/img/eod/end-of-dragons-ogimage.51cf1031.jpg

We have already seen concept art with many heads. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Deep_sea_dragon

I'm getting the feeling Bubbles is a two headed dragon and it was called S... because it has two names.

So S... for one head and InsetSecondHeadName for the other.

I think maybe one head is good and one is evil and that's why we are getting mixed messages for the mysterious voice vs the treatment of the largos. Perhaps at this point one head wants to kill the other (which will also kill itself)

"It doesn't have to be this way" is Kuunavang not wanting to replace the siblings. The end of dragons, plural, is their death.

Comments

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Or it's symbolic. The picture has a ying yang similarity (appropriate for Cantha).

    It also could be similar to the ouroboros symbol and link into the continuous cycle and rebirth.

    Or it could signify 2 replacement dragons - Aurene and Kuunavang.

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • Svennis.3852Svennis.3852 Member ✭✭✭

    If we have two replacement dragons, I hope Aurene isn't one of them. Love her and would love her to play a part in this expansion story, but I want new dragons to inherit elder dragon status. I do love the idea of a two-in-one yin and yang dragon though. Even the idea that the DSD may have two distinct personalities.

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 26, 2020

    @Svennis.3852 said:
    If we have two replacement dragons, I hope Aurene isn't one of them. Love her and would love her to play a part in this expansion story, but I want new dragons to inherit elder dragon status. I do love the idea of a two-in-one yin and yang dragon though. Even the idea that the DSD may have two distinct personalities.

    I think its one replacement dragon (Kuunavang) replacing a dragon with two heads/personalities.

  • Fenom.9457Fenom.9457 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The logo is likely symbolic like the others, but I would love to see a two headed ED, none of the others had that so it would be special

    I'd rather keep going.. wherever the wind takes us

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fenom.9457 said:
    The logo is likely symbolic like the others, but I would love to see a two headed ED, none of the others had that so it would be special

    Given the many heads Zhaitan sprouted, I don't think two heads is all that special.

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Fenom.9457 said:
    The logo is likely symbolic like the others, but I would love to see a two headed ED, none of the others had that so it would be special

    Given the many heads Zhaitan sprouted, I don't think two heads is all that special.

    Zhaitan did not have two distinct personalities cooperating, or fighting, for control of the same body.

  • Fenom.9457Fenom.9457 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Fenom.9457 said:
    The logo is likely symbolic like the others, but I would love to see a two headed ED, none of the others had that so it would be special

    Given the many heads Zhaitan sprouted, I don't think two heads is all that special.

    ehh I think a distinctly two-headed dragon is quite different than a monstrosity with a multitude of heads and extremities

    I'd rather keep going.. wherever the wind takes us

  • Ogwom.7940Ogwom.7940 Member ✭✭✭

    @Svennis.3852 Aurene is already an Elder Dragon now.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 27, 2020

    I do want the DSD to be a Hydra, that would defintiely be a change from the other designs we've had, though I still think it should be 1 dragon not multiple personalities.

    I do not know who the voice is in the trailer but I assume it's the Sea Dragon and Kunnavang is disagreeing with it.
    My Guess is the Saltsprey's were once servants of the sea dragon but unlike other minions they were willing servants and not corrupted and forced into servitude.
    This could be why the Jade wind corrupted the Saltsprays rather than petrifying them like it did to everything else it touched.. they may have had the extra benefit of being protected by the Sea Dragon's power.
    We've seen a similar thing occur with the Sylvari, they were able to be twisted into Awakened by Joko's Necromantic Magic despite being immune to other forms of corruption, specifically dragon corruption thanks to the Pale Tree.

    Now that Sea Dragon is awake again it's possible that with only a handful of Saltsprays at most left it would be talking to them providing they share a connection.
    From what it sounds to me the voice wants to "help" humans/Canthans by ending them.

    The voice says: "mortals are little flames, brilliant, hot and then gone.."
    This tells me that this voice believes that it is the natural cycle for mortals to exist only for a brief moment in time and then to disappear.. like many other mortal race's have in this franchise.
    The Mursaat, The Seers, The Forgotten, The Great Giants, To some extent even the Dwarves.. and countless others that have been completely lost to history.

    This is the cycle of life and death that the Elder Dragons have played such a large role in over time.. their purpose being to awaken and destroy the world over and over and then let it renew itself and give birth to new races.

    Then the voice says: "Those who face eternity easily forget what a lifetime means.. what an ending means."
    Those who face eternity obviously being immortal beings like Kunnavang and other Dragons, basically the voice is saying that Kunnavang has forgotten the purpose of mortality, the reason why mortals exist as mortals and not immortals like Dragons.
    To us mortals the knowledge that our lives will end one day often motivates us to strive for brilliance.. it's what gives our lives meaning and value.

    Mortals live but are all doomed to die, and it's this "ending" our destiny to end that also means something to this voice.

    What immortal creature with such unimaginable power could consider it's purpose in life to bring an end to mortals and forfill their destiny to die?
    There are only 2 beings I can think of who may think that way... Gods and Elder Dragons.
    This is largely why I think the Voice is the Sea Dragons.. or at the very least another Dragon like Albax which has decided to serve the Sea Dragon and is trying to convince Kunnavang to serve as well.

    Kunnavang on the other hand respects mortals, their resillience, their ability to fight for their survival and never give up even in the face of beings that seek to end them.
    This is the debate from how I see it.

    Kunnavang argues that Mortals are resillent and that despite the odds they will fight to survive no matter what.

    The Voice believes that mortal races are destined to end and it's this ending which forfills the true purpose of their existence.

    Kunnavang disagree's and says: "You know it doesn't have to be this way"

    The voice disagrees and says: "Yes Kunnavang, it does.. They Need me"

    This last part.. "They need me" I believe this is the Sea Dragon saying that it believes that it is actually helping mortals to achieve their true purpose by ending them.
    And because of how resillient they are as Kunnavang mentioned, the only way mortals can end is through the actions of a being like an Elder Dragon.
    Without the Sea Dragon mortals will live on forever.. they will never end thus they will never forfill this purpose.. this destiny to die.
    In other words the Sea Dragon is "gifting" mortals the death.. the end that gives their existance purpose.

    Least that's my current take on the trailer.
    Ha! I look forward to seeing how accurate or totally off I am further down the road lol
    Anyhow this was a fun comment to think up and write, hope it at least entertains some of you guys ^^

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    My Guess is the Saltsprey's were once servants of the sea dragon but unlike other minions they were willing servants and not corrupted and forced into servitude.
    This could be why the Jade wind corrupted the Saltsprays rather than petrifying them like it did to everything else it touched.. they may have had the extra benefit of being protected by the Sea Dragon's power.
    We've seen a similar thing occur with the Sylvari, they were able to be twisted into Awakened by Joko's Necromantic Magic despite being immune to other forms of corruption, specifically dragon corruption thanks to the Pale Tree.

    The jade Winds were corrupted Dwayna magic that Shiro stole, likely with a touch of Abaddon in it.
    Unless Arenanet retcons that fact, dragon corruption should not protect from it.

    At the example of Caithe, we can also see that Aurene is capable of corrupting Sylvari, so the Sylvari's protection might be gone.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 27, 2020

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    At the example of Caithe, we can also see that Aurene is capable of corrupting Sylvari, so the Sylvari's protection might be gone.

    Aurene did not corrupt Caithe. In fact Caithe explicitly mentions Aurene did not corrupt her to clarify this to the player.

    Draconic corruption in this sense refers to the corrupted entity being under the mental thrall of the dragon. Caithe's transformation by Aurene is like the Frost Legion, Kudu's Monster, Subject Alpha, and Subject Beta, in that they have draconic energy/power in them, but are not under the mental thrall of said dragons, and thus, are not corrupted by them.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 27, 2020

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    At the example of Caithe, we can also see that Aurene is capable of corrupting Sylvari, so the Sylvari's protection might be gone.

    Aurene did not corrupt Caithe. In fact Caithe explicitly mentions Aurene did not corrupt her to clarify this to the player.

    These are just different forms of corruption.Caithe turned into a Crystal being.
    She has been corrupted by Crystal Dragon Magic, even if it's only on a physiological level.
    Even if she is denying it, because it is a rare (or at least rare until the Frost Legion came along) form of corruption, it doesn't change it from being a corruption.

    Draconic corruption in this sense refers to the corrupted entity being under the mental thrall of the dragon.

    There already were few examples of corrupting only the body in the core game.

    Caithe's transformation by Aurene is like the Frost Legion

    That's because Jormag learned from Aurene how to corrupt without taking away the mind.

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 27, 2020

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    At the example of Caithe, we can also see that Aurene is capable of corrupting Sylvari, so the Sylvari's protection might be gone.

    Aurene did not corrupt Caithe. In fact Caithe explicitly mentions Aurene did not corrupt her to clarify this to the player.

    These are just different forms of corruption.Caithe turned into a Crystal being.
    She has been corrupted by Crystal Dragon Magic, even if it's only on a physiological level.
    Even if she is denying it, because it was a previously unseen form of corruption, it doesn't change it from being a corruption.

    Draconic corruption in this sense refers to the corrupted entity being under the mental thrall of the dragon.

    That was before.
    And now it can also just refer to physiological corruption.

    Caithe's transformation by Aurene is like the Frost Legion

    That's because Jormag learned from Aurene how to corrupt without taking away the mind.

    Caithe was already born a dragon minion with free will. I don't think this qualifies as a new ability.

    Moreover, free will is complicated with Jormag's method of corruption. Even with Aurene as well. The Sylvari were free until they weren't and it didn't require them to be corrupted again.

  • Hypnowulf.7403Hypnowulf.7403 Member ✭✭
    edited August 27, 2020

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    [...] because it is a rare (or at least rare until the Frost Legion came along) form of corruption, it doesn't change it from being a corruption.

    [...] Jormag learned from Aurene how to corrupt without taking away the mind.

    This is... wrong on all counts.

    The Svanir have had free will for as long as we've known about them. It is a very... human thing to hold preconceived notions and to try to parse the world through them without ever stopping to question whether any of these notions are actually correct. There are many problems within our world today that stem from this stubbornness to uphold the traditions of old thought and the supposed sanctity of preconceived notions. It's this kind of thing that results in anti-maskers believing somehow that masks are a political statement because they never bothered to stop to think.

    Now, unless we want to say that—as funny as this is—Jormag ordered their thralls to go and relax in hotsprings, I'd say that it's obvious that the Svanir have free will. They always have had. Of course, there will be... confusion over the difference between appreciation and subjugation. This is the same error that lead the kodan down a path of xenophobic paranoia, choosing to slaughter anyone who was simply appreciative of the help a dragon can give.

    It's also a very human perspective to believe in the "sanctity" or "purity" of the body one was born into. I believe that as we progress we're going to move beyond this outmoded belief because it really is just that, outdated and useless. It's this sort of thing that Trans people tend to struggle with due to how humans can stubbornly cling to the idea that the body you were born into defines everything about your nature, whilst not being prescient enough to realise that the body one has even but a few years into life isn't the same body at all that one is born into. The body replaces itself all the time and one's birthcode is long gone. The 11th Doctor put it best: We all change when you think about it. We are all different people, all through our lives. And that's okay, that's good, you got to keep moving so long as you remember all the people that you used to be.

    Dragon "corruption"? This is... a limited human way of thinking. The body changes all the time, it can change, it has the propensity to change. Yet there are those who'll be obsessed with "purity." Any change is terrifying to them. It's a very primal, animal fear to be changed, to be different in any way than the creature you thought you were born as despite how, as I'd already covered, we're never the person we were born as. None of us are. That's simply not how it works.

    Whether dragon branding or age, we all change.

    We all change.

    That's the proper term for it, by the way: branding. It isn't innately corruptive. It's only the presence of the torment that results in a dragon's brand being corruptive. This is why Aurene's and Jormag's brands aren't corruptive, because they aren't riddled with torment. This is opposed to, naturally, Zhaitan, Mordremoth, and Kralkatorrik who all clearly were. The torment brings its own corruption to the brand, the brand in and of itself is not a form of corruption. The brand is change. Nothing more, nothing less. I understand the desire to want the brand to be seen as corruption but that really is just an animal fear. The kind of fear that, to reiterate once again, results in xenophobic paranoia.

    Aurene's brand was never corruptive. Jormag's brand was never corruptive. The brand of neither dragon has ever stolen free will. Appreciation isn't subjugation. Agreeing with an ideology or belief doesn't imply someone has been brainwashed. Unless we'd like to revisit the unmitigated, sordid insanity of the Red Scare.

    I wonder how many millennia it will take for humanity to be ready for transhumanism? Will Sol die before that happens?

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    My Guess is the Saltsprey's were once servants of the sea dragon but unlike other minions they were willing servants and not corrupted and forced into servitude.
    This could be why the Jade wind corrupted the Saltsprays rather than petrifying them like it did to everything else it touched.. they may have had the extra benefit of being protected by the Sea Dragon's power.
    We've seen a similar thing occur with the Sylvari, they were able to be twisted into Awakened by Joko's Necromantic Magic despite being immune to other forms of corruption, specifically dragon corruption thanks to the Pale Tree.

    The jade Winds were corrupted Dwayna magic that Shiro stole, likely with a touch of Abaddon in it.
    Unless Arenanet retcons that fact, dragon corruption should not protect from it.

    At the example of Caithe, we can also see that Aurene is capable of corrupting Sylvari, so the Sylvari's protection might be gone.

    That's the thing, it didn't protect them.

    The Jade wind petrified everything it touched, except the Saltspray's which were instead corrupted by the magic.
    We can chalk this up to Dragons being Dragons but if we learn in Gw2 that the Saltsprays are of the Sea Dragon then it would also be a sufficient explaination as to why they were not also petrified along with everything else the Jade Wind touched.

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 27, 2020

    @Hypnowulf.7403 said:

    The Svanir have had free will for as long as we've known about them.... [snip]

    While your post is very aspirational you are severely mistaken.

    Corruption, use a capital C if it helps you, is the process by which matter is irreversibly replaced by matter within a Elder Dragons sphere of influence.

    Branding is when you do that with the crystal domain. It only applies to Kralkatorrik and now possibly Aurene. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Branded
    And this is/was the Brand. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dragonbrand

    In and of itself it is Corrupted and that does not change when Aurene replaces it. The soil can no longer can support life. It stops being part of nature. The comparison to transpeople is incredibly reductive and I would prefer if you not include it in this discussion. They don't stop being human.

    Cleansed Corruption is when Corruption no longer seeks to spread itself and/or serve. The Pale Tree and Glint were cleansed. The Sylvari and Aurene were born that way. Caithe received some more recently. They are all still Corrupted.

    Jormag does not do that. There was no Forgotten ritual to bestow them with cleansed Corruption. Jormag is the Elder Dragon of Ice and Persuasion. They tempt people with power into corrupting themselves.

    The Svanir relaxing in hotsprings are not these Svanir https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Veteran_Icebrood_Svanir

    But eventually they all turn to ice and start killing and gathering magic.

  • To add to Daniel Handler response: the Sons of Svanir aren't dragon minion, they are Norn that follow and worship Jormag. Some Svanir DO over time become Icebrood, but over all the Svanir are just Norn kitten with their free will intact.

    Hate Is Fuel.

  • Bast.7253Bast.7253 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    At the example of Caithe, we can also see that Aurene is capable of corrupting Sylvari, so the Sylvari's protection might be gone.

    Aurene did not corrupt Caithe. In fact Caithe explicitly mentions Aurene did not corrupt her to clarify this to the player.

    Draconic corruption in this sense refers to the corrupted entity being under the mental thrall of the dragon. Caithe's transformation by Aurene is like the Frost Legion, Kudu's Monster, Subject Alpha, and Subject Beta, in that they have draconic energy/power in them, but are not under the mental thrall of said dragons, and thus, are not corrupted by them.

    I don't know that it would necessarily be a "retcon" though, as much as an expansion on pre-existing knowledge/assumptions.

    I've always thought that whole thing was suspicious, personally. One man steals a remnant of Dwayna's power, just a regular mortal, and manages to somehow scream and petrify a whole sea and forest?

    Meanwhile, an ELDER DRAGON, has to fly above an area and breathe branded breath on a piece of land to make the same dent. It's always felt like there's more at play here, because Shiro really doesn't seem like he should be capable of that much devastation (even if he has some remnant of a God's power). And it seems rather odd in general that Dwayna's magic would have resulted in things petrifying. I wouldn't be surprised at all to find out that it was Dwayna's magic amplified/twisted by the DSD. Because it just doesn't really make sense that a mere mortal would be able to do that, especially in comparison to some of the other comparable characters we've seen in game. Of the most powerful I'm only immediately able to think of Jenna and Xera - both were mesmers and merely created large illusions, not altering the very terrain.

    Was Balthazar, even at demi-god status, even able to perform such a feat?

    Either way, I don't think it would be a retcon. The people of Cantha likely thought it was all Shiro and the magic he stole of Dwayna's, but if they didn't have any experience or knowledge of something like an Elder Dragon they likely wouldn't have reason to question it. Less of a "retcon" and more of an "evolution" of the story.

    Honestly, I'm wondering if this very thing could come into play in the upcoming fractal. Perhaps we will be witnessing the elemental uproar immediately following Shiro's death wail and may see some ambient clues that there's more at play. They did say the reasoning for the elemental uproar would be "surprising." It would be pretty surprising to find out that, (while the main story focuses on the aftermath of Shiro which we presume to be the cause) we actually find out there's something else causing it.

  • @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    At the example of Caithe, we can also see that Aurene is capable of corrupting Sylvari, so the Sylvari's protection might be gone.

    Aurene did not corrupt Caithe. In fact Caithe explicitly mentions Aurene did not corrupt her to clarify this to the player.

    Draconic corruption in this sense refers to the corrupted entity being under the mental thrall of the dragon. Caithe's transformation by Aurene is like the Frost Legion, Kudu's Monster, Subject Alpha, and Subject Beta, in that they have draconic energy/power in them, but are not under the mental thrall of said dragons, and thus, are not corrupted by them.

    1. We have no evidence to say that Subject Alpha, Subject Beta, and Kudu's Monster are not under the mental thrall of Elder Dragons.
    2. They called what happened to the Frost Legion corruption, and if that's the same as Caithe - guess what, corruption.
    3. Dragon corruption has two aspects - mental, and physical. Both aspects are corruption, it is still corruption if one aspect is missing.
    4. Although Caithe retained her free will, she gained a mental connection to Aurene, so Caithe still had both aspects influence her.

    @Hypnowulf.7403 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    [...] because it is a rare (or at least rare until the Frost Legion came along) form of corruption, it doesn't change it from being a corruption.

    [...] Jormag learned from Aurene how to corrupt without taking away the mind.

    This is... wrong on all counts.

    The Svanir have had free will for as long as we've known about them.

    The Sons of Svanir have free will... because they're not corrupted. Once they become Icebrood - or just "Svanir" as per Season 3 and later - then they lose that free will.

    Now, unless we want to say that—as funny as this is—Jormag ordered their thralls to go and relax in hotsprings, I'd say that it's obvious that the Svanir have free will.

    Those are Sons of Svanir, not icebrood. Huge difference - because, again, Sons of Svanir are not corrupted. They don't have Jormag's voice in their mind.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • @Bast.7253 said:
    I don't know that it would necessarily be a "retcon" though, as much as an expansion on pre-existing knowledge/assumptions.

    I've always thought that whole thing was suspicious, personally. One man steals a remnant of Dwayna's power, just a regular mortal, and manages to somehow scream and petrify a whole sea and forest?

    Meanwhile, an ELDER DRAGON, has to fly above an area and breathe branded breath on a piece of land to make the same dent. It's always felt like there's more at play here, because Shiro really doesn't seem like he should be capable of that much devastation (even if he has some remnant of a God's power). And it seems rather odd in general that Dwayna's magic would have resulted in things petrifying. I wouldn't be surprised at all to find out that it was Dwayna's magic amplified/twisted by the DSD. Because it just doesn't really make sense that a mere mortal would be able to do that, especially in comparison to some of the other comparable characters we've seen in game. Of the most powerful I'm only immediately able to think of Jenna and Xera - both were mesmers and merely created large illusions, not altering the very terrain.

    Was Balthazar, even at demi-god status, even able to perform such a feat?

    Shiro didn't just "somehow stole" the magic. He underwent and studied dark rituals and magic, enchanted his weapons, and prepared spells for the process - all through the subtle and unknown-to-Shiro guidance of Abaddon. And it honestly makes sense that the patron of Preservation Magic would petrify - what happens if you preserve something too much? It goes into stasis - it petrifies.

    As to the DSD's involvement - while we know very little about it, the two key things we know about it counter any argument if its relation - first, it is the "Water Dragon", which going by all other thematics, would mean that its corruption liquefies - the opposite of the Jade Wind; second, it woke in the deepest parts of the seas, and pushed krait, karka, and quaggan out of their homelands in the Unending Ocean - which isn't the Jade Sea or even close to the southern inland shores of the Jade Sea. So why would its magic be present near Shiro's death?

    As to whether gods could do such a thing - they turned a sea into a desert, so it seems likely that their magic could turn a sea and forest into stone.

    Either way, I don't think it would be a retcon. The people of Cantha likely thought it was all Shiro and the magic he stole of Dwayna's, but if they didn't have any experience or knowledge of something like an Elder Dragon they likely wouldn't have reason to question it. Less of a "retcon" and more of an "evolution" of the story.

    That's... what a retcon technically is. Retroactive continuity.

    Changing previously established lore to fit a new narrative.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 30, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    1. We have no evidence to say that Subject Alpha, Subject Beta, and Kudu's Monster are not under the mental thrall of Elder Dragons.

    Except the stated purpose of Kudu's Monster, and Subject Alpha, was to create a being, outside the Elder Dragon's control, that could be used to control other dragon minions/artificially made minions, to further Kudu's/the Inquest's goals. Subject Beta, being a continuation of these experiments, would follow in the same design philosophy. The whole narrative point of these creatures was that they weren't, and until said time as something states they were, they weren't. That's how narratives work.

    Quite literally, ALL evidence supports that they weren't, while NOTHING suggests they were.

  • @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    1. We have no evidence to say that Subject Alpha, Subject Beta, and Kudu's Monster are not under the mental thrall of Elder Dragons.

    Except the stated purpose of Kudu's Monster and Subject Alpha, was to create a powerful being, outside the Elder Dragon's control, that could be used to control other artificially made minions, to further Kudu's/the Inquest's goals. And nothing in-game ever suggests they were.

    The whole narrative point of these creatures was that they weren't, and until said time as something states they were, they weren't. That's how narratives work.

    The narrative of Subject Alpha is that it was uncontrollable, and capable of controlling all dragon minions. The later fact is solid proof that Alpha was connected to all five Elder Dragon hive minds enough to command those minions, since its proven multiple times over that it is through the hiveminds that champions command minions.

    Kudu's Monster is the only one who has reason of doubt for any connection, but Alpha? The proof is there that it had that connection.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 30, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    The narrative of Subject Alpha is that it was uncontrollable, and capable of controlling all dragon minions. The later fact is solid proof that Alpha was connected to all five Elder Dragon hive minds enough to command those minions, since its proven multiple times over that it is through the hiveminds that champions command minions.

    Kudu's Monster is the only one who has reason of doubt for any connection, but Alpha? The proof is there that it had that connection.

    It was uncontrollable by the Inquest. Nothing says it was controlled by any of the Elder Dragons(which wouldn't make sense because the moment any one of them got their hands on it they would have no reason to let control go, meaning it wouldn't be able to control any of the other Dragon minions by your own argument, as it would then be locked into that Dragon's hivemind. Which means your own argument disproves itself)

    All that proves is that it had a backdoor into the hivemind, that it could use to control minions around it, but was still separate enough to not be under the direct thrall of any Elder Dragon.

  • Subject Alpha didn't need to be controlled by any Elder Dragon - that's rather irrelevant to the fact that it controlled the minions, thus proved it had a connection to all five hive minds of its corruption.

    Which is enough to prove that it was changed both physically and mentally. Same with Caithe, the Frost Legion, and any other dragon minion.

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  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Which is enough to prove that it was changed both physically and mentally.

    Which still means it wasn't corrupted by any of them, and none of the Elder Dragons did so themselves, and it retained its free will unlike the actual corrupted who don't.

  • The given definition for dragon corruption is that it physically alters the subject to the ED's element, and that it connects the subject to the Elder Dragon's hive mind.

    Two requirements. Both met.

    For Caithe, Frost Legion, Subject Alpha.

    They're corrupted.

    And for the record, nothing says that Subject Alpha had free will.

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  • Bast.7253Bast.7253 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Bast.7253 said:
    I don't know that it would necessarily be a "retcon" though, as much as an expansion on pre-existing knowledge/assumptions.

    I've always thought that whole thing was suspicious, personally. One man steals a remnant of Dwayna's power, just a regular mortal, and manages to somehow scream and petrify a whole sea and forest?

    Meanwhile, an ELDER DRAGON, has to fly above an area and breathe branded breath on a piece of land to make the same dent. It's always felt like there's more at play here, because Shiro really doesn't seem like he should be capable of that much devastation (even if he has some remnant of a God's power). And it seems rather odd in general that Dwayna's magic would have resulted in things petrifying. I wouldn't be surprised at all to find out that it was Dwayna's magic amplified/twisted by the DSD. Because it just doesn't really make sense that a mere mortal would be able to do that, especially in comparison to some of the other comparable characters we've seen in game. Of the most powerful I'm only immediately able to think of Jenna and Xera - both were mesmers and merely created large illusions, not altering the very terrain.

    Was Balthazar, even at demi-god status, even able to perform such a feat?

    Shiro didn't just "somehow stole" the magic. He underwent and studied dark rituals and magic, enchanted his weapons, and prepared spells for the process - all through the subtle and unknown-to-Shiro guidance of Abaddon. And it honestly makes sense that the patron of Preservation Magic would petrify - what happens if you preserve something too much? It goes into stasis - it petrifies.

    As to the DSD's involvement - while we know very little about it, the two key things we know about it counter any argument if its relation - first, it is the "Water Dragon", which going by all other thematics, would mean that its corruption liquefies - the opposite of the Jade Wind; second, it woke in the deepest parts of the seas, and pushed krait, karka, and quaggan out of their homelands in the Unending Ocean - which isn't the Jade Sea or even close to the southern inland shores of the Jade Sea. So why would its magic be present near Shiro's death?

    As to whether gods could do such a thing - they turned a sea into a desert, so it seems likely that their magic could turn a sea and forest into stone.

    Either way, I don't think it would be a retcon. The people of Cantha likely thought it was all Shiro and the magic he stole of Dwayna's, but if they didn't have any experience or knowledge of something like an Elder Dragon they likely wouldn't have reason to question it. Less of a "retcon" and more of an "evolution" of the story.

    That's... what a retcon technically is. Retroactive continuity.

    Changing previously established lore to fit a new narrative.

    Yes, full-powered gods. But demi-god Balthazar? I would think Shiro borrowing Dwayna's magic would be a step below him.

    I guess it's just strange to me that a human mortal could wield god magic in that way, yet I don't recall seeing any other similar events from others. I guess Khilibron reading the scroll could count?

  • To be fair, Balthazar dying did cover all of Vabbi in a magical maelstrom until Kralkatorrik ate it up. Comparatively, Abaddon's death was threatening to destroy the entire world plus the afterlife. So, arguably, Balthazar did pull off a Jade Wind of sorts - both the magical maelstrom and the Jade Wind were death wails of sorts.

    We don't really have any other comparative events because the Harvest Ceremony is the only known case of a blessing from the gods for a continent's good harvest being granted.

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