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GW2 did a poor job to present the dragon's strength/characters

Slowpokeking.8720Slowpokeking.8720 Member ✭✭✭

The Elder Dragons were set to be the super powerful big bad.

But none of them were really presented well. Zhaitan fight was a joke while its Risen forces was presented well.

Mordremoth was a bit improvement. Overall the best presented dragon so far.

But LWS3 and PoF REALLLY ruined the dragon's threat.

Jormag and Primordus were almost killed together with powered striped Balthazar using a machine. What is this? If you want to keep them as huge future threat, this should be LAST thing you do.

Kralkatorrik was almost killed in EoD and nearly again in PoF. Its last fight didn't feel much as a huge world threat. Even in the 1st battle it was badly wounded, only caught us by surprise.

Comments

  • borgs.6103borgs.6103 Member ✭✭✭

    It's a Catch-22 situation. How could you write defeating a natural, world-ending threat that sees you as a mere ant without a mcguffin or a Deus Ex Machina?
    It's like trying to restart the Sun or fighting a Sentient Earthquake.

    Check out the fable of the Boiling Frog.

  • @borgs.6103 said:
    It's a Catch-22 situation. How could you write defeating a natural, world-ending threat that sees you as a mere ant without a mcguffin or a Deus Ex Machina?
    It's like trying to restart the Sun or fighting a Sentient Earthquake.

    Set the whole world's magic level up, make the leaders/important figures powerful beings like Shiro Tagachi or Mallyx. Let the Six Gods intervene and help with their knowledge. Let the dragons fight each other.

  • Ultramex.1506Ultramex.1506 Member ✭✭✭

    Mordremoth? Huh...he always come of as a cartoony villain to me

  • @Ultramex.1506 said:
    Mordremoth? Huh...he always come of as a cartoony villain to me

    The characterization, yes, only Jormag has some ok plot, Kralkatorrik's twist was too sudden.

    But Mordremoth' threat was shown well enough.

  • Svennis.3852Svennis.3852 Member ✭✭✭

    I've certainly had problems with the writing before. The dragons have always felt a bit uninteresting as antagonists to me, and finding ways to take them down has felt a bit... lazy at times. Or convenient. I thought Kralk was done relatively well, with a few different confrontations and he presented a real threat to the fabric of reality.

    And Mordy worked for me too. The final confrontation was a bit meh, but I felt they hit the beats they needed for that kind of villain. Especially with Mordremoth being recently awakened in HoTs, that to me gave us more opportunity to defeat them.

    I'm really enjoying Jormag so far. The most interesting ED to date.

  • Hannelore.8153Hannelore.8153 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 27, 2020

    Its power creep, basically.

    Back at the start of the game, anything attacking Lion's Arch was a big deal, because it was the capital city of the game where literally every player hung out, the racial cities were completely dead. So Zhaitan seemed like a real threat because of this.

    But over time the stakes had to be higher and higher, while retaking Claw Island in the early 2010s seemed like a monumental achivement, now we walk right into Dragon's lairs (Frost Citadel), and talk to them, and its hard for the devs to keep pace with the power of the dragons when we're so powerful ourselves. The Player Character and their allies have proven more powerful than even the dragons..

    Continuing to escalate the threat will continue to escalate the heroes who overcome it. Its like DBZ.

    Hannah | Daisuki[SUKI] Founder, Ehmry Bay, NA | 22 charas, 16k hours, 27k AP | ♀♥♀
    Mains Mariyuuna/Tempest & Alisha Kei/Druid(PvE), Terakura/Spellbreaker & Kitty Koume/Reaper(WvW)
    No need to be best, only good and kind.

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    I feel that the introduction to HoT set up Mordremoth's strength very well. He literally tore the landscape apart just to swat a fleet of airships out of the sky. It went from a flat and lush jungle to a canyonous region with chunks of land suspended by the dragon's corruption. I really wish the entirety of Orr was like Verdant Brink.

    But aside from Verdant Brink, Kralkatorrik literally tearing apart the fabric of reality is the only time that I felt the Elder Dragons' strength for portrayed as truly threatening.

    That's only after he absorbed 3 powerful sources' magic, before that he almost got killed twice.

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I think the main issue is the constant "eureka" moments to overcome them. We had no idea how to kill Mordy until the final moment. Kralk gets knocked out by a suddenyl resurrected, super powered baby Dragon killing machine. It's looking like Jormag and Primordus will be suddenly taken out this Season as well.

    Given they have apparently confirmed in a discord channel this is indeed the end of the DRagon story arc, it's clear they've realised they aren't able to write for them anymore and want to rush the Dragons out the door in favour of something new and more managemable (problem is, the Balthazar and Lazarus arc alone show they struggle with non-dragon arcs)

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • Svennis.3852Svennis.3852 Member ✭✭✭

    Aren’t the writing teams very different post layoffs?

    Icebrood Saga has felt unlike anything before it, so I think they’ve got some fresh perspectives on their team now. Imo, Icebrood Saga has been the highest quality writing for the franchise in years.

  • Harak.8397Harak.8397 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 27, 2020

    My issue with the Elder Dragons is they became persons. Sure, very large creatures but when they started talking to you they became typical mustache twirling villains. I don't speak to the ants I'm displacing when I'm digging a hole near their hive... I'm just planting flowers. I'm sure they see me as some unfathomable world ending living disaster. That's why I always felt that the logical course would have been to find a way to put them back to sleep with magic, ritual, powerful artifact, what have you. Baring that, blasting them with advanced weaponry but we all saw how the Zhaitan fight went down with players. I mean, I'm sure I would take notice if the ants started shooting at me... maybe.

  • Svennis.3852Svennis.3852 Member ✭✭✭

    Zhaitan was the most uninteresting dragon of the bunch. You really want to go back to that?

    Elder dragons were always 'people,' we just didn't understand them in the early game like we do now. And if ants were as sapient as human beings, they could easily annihilate us. But they're not, so they're not a major threat to our lives. Humans are sapient, and therefore dangerous and worth the attention of elder dragons.

    I'm not saying the past writing around elder dragons has been great, or even good, but there's no 'original sin' here with them revealing the 'personhood' of the elder dragons. Some don't seem as cognizant as others, in any case.

  • Harak.8397Harak.8397 Member ✭✭✭

    My point was : They were originally presented as unfathomable living forces of nature and we got served mustache twirling villains. (especially Mordremoth who keeps harping on about his power and our insignificance ). Zhaitan gets a by since his "mouths" did all the silly talk. Kralkatorrik felt the most genuine of the lot since I don't remember him addressing anyone but his grand daughter. It was even better when he was turning everyone and everything to crystal just by being present. ( as seen is Ghosts of Ascalon )

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Svennis.3852 said:
    Aren’t the writing teams very different post layoffs?

    Icebrood Saga has felt unlike anything before it, so I think they’ve got some fresh perspectives on their team now. Imo, Icebrood Saga has been the highest quality writing for the franchise in years.

    I actually think Season 5 is one of the worst chapters of GW2's story.
    It's all the way down at the bottom, together with Season 3.

  • Svennis.3852Svennis.3852 Member ✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Svennis.3852 said:
    Aren’t the writing teams very different post layoffs?

    Icebrood Saga has felt unlike anything before it, so I think they’ve got some fresh perspectives on their team now. Imo, Icebrood Saga has been the highest quality writing for the franchise in years.

    I actually think Season 5 is one of the worst chapters of GW2's story.
    It's all the way down at the bottom, together with Season 3.

    I disagree, but you do you.

  • To me the bigger turn-off is that the plot is always focused on "we must kill this dragon because is a threat" and blah blah blah. It was kind of interesting at the very beginning with Zhaitan and Moldremoth, but started to get somewhat repetitive after them. Although there was a "shift" somewhere in LS3 (can't remember the chapter) with them finding out that Dragons are indeed a sort of "primal and natural force" that helps to keep magic in balance, later in story they are still aiming to defeat those creatures "and get away with it". Jormag's plot seems to be headed to that too, with the commander and its crew as "the heroes that finished once again the dragon threat".

    I'd like to be surprised though, and see Jormag evolving from being a direct menace, to be something else that no one was expecting; with this said menace being other thing. (A Human God could work nicely)

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 28, 2020

    @Slowpokeking.8720 said:
    The Elder Dragons were set to be the super powerful big bad.

    But none of them were really presented well. Zhaitan fight was a joke while its Risen forces was presented well.

    Mordremoth was a bit improvement. Overall the best presented dragon so far.

    But LWS3 and PoF REALLLY ruined the dragon's threat.

    Jormag and Primordus were almost killed together with powered striped Balthazar using a machine. What is this? If you want to keep them as huge future threat, this should be LAST thing you do.

    Kralkatorrik was almost killed in EoD and nearly again in PoF. Its last fight didn't feel much as a huge world threat. Even in the 1st battle it was badly wounded, only caught us by surprise.

    I have to disagree.

    Zhaitan.. ok yes, it's well known that the big fight against him was really disappointing but also yes his minions were presented well and he did have a pretty massive reach from his home location.
    Not just the landmass either, he had entire undead fleets patroling the ocean which made him a pretty significant threat.

    Mordremoth.. imo he was a significant improvement in just about every way, his mordrem army may have been smaller the Zhaitans Risen but they were far more ruthless.
    Mordremoth himself had massive reach and was able to rip the ground apart and destroy any location with tendrils at will as we saw in Kryta, the Shiverpeaks and even Ascalon.
    He was also highly intelligent and possesed the ability to transfer his conciousness into other plant beings he had corrupted making him nearly invincible.

    Jormag and Primordus in LW3 were not almost killed by a power stripped Balthazar.. they were almost killed by each other.
    The machine Balthazar was using was specifically designed to channel the dragons magic against one another which was extremely effective since Primordus and Jormags magics are each others weaknesses.
    Balthazar was mearly acting as a conduit for this process so he could power himself up off their magic while killing them both.

    Kralkatorrik is pretty much a dragon of rage.. he's called the Elder Dragon of Crystal and Fury for a reason.
    He's not like Mordremoth or Zhaitan, not a Dragon with a strong military mind or as devious but rather a dragon of brute force and overwhelming power.
    Krtalkatorrik is the only dragon that so far we havent had to invade it's territory force a face to face encounter with, he's was more than willing to be directly on the front lines even when he knew there was a plot or plan to kill him, he didn't care.
    So far Kralkatorrik has been the most powerful Elder Dragon, literally ripping apart the fabric of reality, breaking into the mists and destroying God Realms.
    Everywhere Kralkatorrik has gone he has left nothing but carnage and destruction.

    Also the reason he has almost died several times as well is because in all those encounters he was fighting against powerful foes that knew his weakness and how to kill him.
    Destiny's Edge had the Dragonblood Spear and a Dragon Champion on their side.. they still lost and Glint and Snaff died.

    Balthazar had a giant machine channeling Aurines power against him.. again his weakness and again he survived, thanks largely to us interfering and killing a a former God.

    We trapped and fought him in Thunderhead keep with an adolescent crystal dragon, weapons made from his minions blood, resonance crystal's tuned specifically for him.. all of which he was weak against.. we also had an army helping us and even after we smashed a chunk out of his face and destroyed one of his eyes.. he still won and almost killed us.
    After that we chase him into the mists and Aurine destroys several weak spots on his body to damage him before literally blowing one of his wings off.
    He then falls through a portal, crashes into the ocean floor and has multiple island sized chunks of god realms come crashing down on top of him.. and he is still alive!
    And even after we go right up to his face and kill his physical body.. he still refuses to die and we're forced to fly down his throat, kill his torment and then stab him in the heart before he finally dies once and for all.

    If Kralkatorrik has proven anything from the living world.. it's that he is one dragon that was definitely not easy to kill..

    And now we're going up against Jormag.. which I am not going to get into right now since I am 2 episodes behind due to the whole pandemic thing preventing the voice acting.
    I simply don't know what the current developments with Jormag are post Bjora Marches so I can't give a solid opinion on it.

  • @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Slowpokeking.8720 said:
    The Elder Dragons were set to be the super powerful big bad.

    But none of them were really presented well. Zhaitan fight was a joke while its Risen forces was presented well.

    Mordremoth was a bit improvement. Overall the best presented dragon so far.

    But LWS3 and PoF REALLLY ruined the dragon's threat.

    Jormag and Primordus were almost killed together with powered striped Balthazar using a machine. What is this? If you want to keep them as huge future threat, this should be LAST thing you do.

    Kralkatorrik was almost killed in EoD and nearly again in PoF. Its last fight didn't feel much as a huge world threat. Even in the 1st battle it was badly wounded, only caught us by surprise.

    I have to disagree.

    Zhaitan.. ok yes, it's well known that the big fight against him was really disappointing but also yes his minions were presented well and he did have a pretty massive reach from his home location.
    Not just the landmass either, he had entire undead fleets patroling the ocean which made him a pretty significant threat.

    Mordremoth.. imo he was a significant improvement in just about every way, his mordrem army may have been smaller the Zhaitans Risen but they were far more ruthless.
    Mordremoth himself had massive reach and was able to rip the ground apart and destroy any location with tendrils at will as we saw in Kryta, the Shiverpeaks and even Ascalon.
    He was also highly intelligent and possesed the ability to transfer his conciousness into other plant beings he had corrupted making him nearly invincible.

    Jormag and Primordus in LW3 were not almost killed by a power stripped Balthazar.. they were almost killed by each other.
    The machine Balthazar was using was specifically designed to channel the dragons magic against one another which was extremely effective since Primordus and Jormags magics are each others weaknesses.
    Balthazar was mearly acting as a conduit for this process so he could power himself up off their magic while killing them both.

    Kralkatorrik is pretty much a dragon of rage.. he's called the Elder Dragon of Crystal and Fury for a reason.
    He's not like Mordremoth or Zhaitan, not a Dragon with a strong military mind or as devious but rather a dragon of brute force and overwhelming power.
    Krtalkatorrik is the only dragon that so far we havent had to invade it's territory force a face to face encounter with, he's was more than willing to be directly on the front lines even when he knew there was a plot or plan to kill him, he didn't care.
    So far Kralkatorrik has been the most powerful Elder Dragon, literally ripping apart the fabric of reality, breaking into the mists and destroying God Realms.
    Everywhere Kralkatorrik has gone he has left nothing but carnage and destruction.

    Also the reason he has almost died several times as well is because in all those encounters he was fighting against powerful foes that knew his weakness and how to kill him.
    Destiny's Edge had the Dragonblood Spear and a Dragon Champion on their side.. they still lost and Glint and Snaff died.

    Balthazar had a giant machine channeling Aurines power against him.. again his weakness and again he survived, thanks largely to us interfering and killing a a former God.

    We trapped and fought him in Thunderhead keep with an adolescent crystal dragon, weapons made from his minions blood, resonance crystal's tuned specifically for him.. all of which he was weak against.. we also had an army helping us and even after we smashed a chunk out of his face and destroyed one of his eyes.. he still won and almost killed us.
    After that we chase him into the mists and Aurine destroys several weak spots on his body to damage him before literally blowing one of his wings off.
    He then falls through a portal, crashes into the ocean floor and has multiple island sized chunks of god realms come crashing down on top of him.. and he is still alive!
    And even after we go right up to his face and kill his physical body.. he still refuses to die and we're forced to fly down his throat, kill his torment and then stab him in the heart before he finally dies once and for all.

    If Kralkatorrik has proven anything from the living world.. it's that he is one dragon that was definitely not easy to kill..

    And now we're going up against Jormag.. which I am not going to get into right now since I am 2 episodes behind due to the whole pandemic thing preventing the voice acting.
    I simply don't know what the current developments with Jormag are post Bjora Marches so I can't give a solid opinion on it.

    There is no excuse, ok a machine can easily put 2 dragon's power against each other and they could do NOTHING about it, that's a huge letdown.

    Kralkatorrik only became so powerful after absorbing so much energy. If logan was there he would be killed right way. These weapons could kill the dragon=another letdown.

  • @nichoo.9246 said:
    To me the bigger turn-off is that the plot is always focused on "we must kill this dragon because is a threat" and blah blah blah. It was kind of interesting at the very beginning with Zhaitan and Moldremoth, but started to get somewhat repetitive after them. Although there was a "shift" somewhere in LS3 (can't remember the chapter) with them finding out that Dragons are indeed a sort of "primal and natural force" that helps to keep magic in balance, later in story they are still aiming to defeat those creatures "and get away with it". Jormag's plot seems to be headed to that too, with the commander and its crew as "the heroes that finished once again the dragon threat".

    I'd like to be surprised though, and see Jormag evolving from being a direct menace, to be something else that no one was expecting; with this said menace being other thing. (A Human God could work nicely)

    I don't like the shift.

    Sure it might be boring to set them as pure villains. But it's worse to make a sudden switch when the "enemy" setting has been there for so long.

    The problem is that the dragons don't interact with each other. Otherwise it would be very interesting.

  • nichoo.9246nichoo.9246 Member ✭✭
    edited August 29, 2020

    @Slowpokeking.8720 said:

    @nichoo.9246 said:
    To me the bigger turn-off is that the plot is always focused on "we must kill this dragon because is a threat" and blah blah blah. It was kind of interesting at the very beginning with Zhaitan and Moldremoth, but started to get somewhat repetitive after them. Although there was a "shift" somewhere in LS3 (can't remember the chapter) with them finding out that Dragons are indeed a sort of "primal and natural force" that helps to keep magic in balance, later in story they are still aiming to defeat those creatures "and get away with it". Jormag's plot seems to be headed to that too, with the commander and its crew as "the heroes that finished once again the dragon threat".

    I'd like to be surprised though, and see Jormag evolving from being a direct menace, to be something else that no one was expecting; with this said menace being other thing. (A Human God could work nicely)

    I don't like the shift.

    Sure it might be boring to set them as pure villains. But it's worse to make a sudden switch when the "enemy" setting has been there for so long.

    The problem is that the dragons don't interact with each other. Otherwise it would be very interesting.

    Yeah, I understand your point. What I mean with this is that the main problem, for me, lies in they precisely went for that kind of setting from the beginning and when they had the oportunity to make something different, they prefered to stick to it... Going back to the example I put with Jormag, I think the Sons of Svanir lore could have been better approached (especially with this "Corruption" aspect) and much more amplified, but instead what we have is that the Commander is just going to kill (again) an Elder Dragon because reasons.

    It is somewhat predictable, and attaching to the idea of "We good, they bad" only means that the inmense potential Elders Dragons have in the lore, if we're taking into account their supposed nature as Primal Forces, is wasted.

  • @nichoo.9246 said:

    @Slowpokeking.8720 said:

    @nichoo.9246 said:
    To me the bigger turn-off is that the plot is always focused on "we must kill this dragon because is a threat" and blah blah blah. It was kind of interesting at the very beginning with Zhaitan and Moldremoth, but started to get somewhat repetitive after them. Although there was a "shift" somewhere in LS3 (can't remember the chapter) with them finding out that Dragons are indeed a sort of "primal and natural force" that helps to keep magic in balance, later in story they are still aiming to defeat those creatures "and get away with it". Jormag's plot seems to be headed to that too, with the commander and its crew as "the heroes that finished once again the dragon threat".

    I'd like to be surprised though, and see Jormag evolving from being a direct menace, to be something else that no one was expecting; with this said menace being other thing. (A Human God could work nicely)

    I don't like the shift.

    Sure it might be boring to set them as pure villains. But it's worse to make a sudden switch when the "enemy" setting has been there for so long.

    The problem is that the dragons don't interact with each other. Otherwise it would be very interesting.

    Yeah, I understand your point. What I mean with this is that the main problem, for me, lies in they precisely went for that kind of setting from the beginning and when they had the oportunity to make something different, they prefered to stick to it... Going back to the example I put with Jormag, I think the Sons of Svanir lore could have been better approached (especially with this "Corruption" aspect) and much more amplified, but instead what we have is that the Commander is just going to kill (again) an Elder Dragon because reasons.

    It is somewhat predictable, and attaching to the idea of "We good, they bad" only means that the inmense potential Elders Dragons have in the lore, if we're taking into account their supposed nature as Primal Forces, is wasted.

    In the novels and the vanilla game, Jormag's cruelness and directness was already shown. So it's just weird to abandon all the setting and make a big switch. It's just inconsistent. They got 2 hidden dragon when the game was released. But Mordremoth was used too early and nothing but a pure villain. I hope DSD could be handled in a better way.

    Balthazar being a pure villain was also garbage, especially when you have Menizes to use.