I wish support classes were better balanced for end game content — Guild Wars 2 Forums
Home Professions

I wish support classes were better balanced for end game content

Aisling.5901Aisling.5901 Member ✭✭
edited August 30, 2020 in Professions

It's so annoying to see how even though engineer, revenant and necromancer all have viable healing builds, most groups will specify that they only want a firebrand or druid. Just really sucks that the support classes are so unbalanced so that firebrand and druid are pretty much the only meta. There's almost never any specifications for damage classes because for the most part every class has a decent damage build, but even though there are nine classes in the game only two are support meta. Yet as said; engineer, revenant and necromancer have healing builds while thief and mesmer have fragments of them.

Doesn't seem like much effort has been put into balancing the support meta so that each support class brings a unique benefit which makes them all similarly appealing in end game content.

Comments

  • Solanum.6983Solanum.6983 Member ✭✭✭

    Maybe with the expansion some of the classes will finally get elite specializations that look into those roles they lack in. I'd assume so anyway.

  • Mewcifer.5198Mewcifer.5198 Member ✭✭✭✭

    It is very frustrating how you have two supports that can output both more than enough heals and good offensive boons.

    Them being able to give the boons while the others really can't is what makes them meta. Just being able to heal just isn't good enough in the end game. Making the options very limited.

    My list of suggestions for GW2
    Max Masteries | 20k AP

  • Kuma.1503Kuma.1503 Member ✭✭✭

    If not for Druid giving out 25 might on it's own, Heal tempest may have had a niche, but alas.

  • @Kuma.1503 said:
    If not for Druid giving out 25 might on it's own, Heal tempest may have had a niche, but alas.

    Without that might druid would be gone from end game as its heals are weak spirit is not as good as tempest heal and dmg

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 28, 2020

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:

    @Kuma.1503 said:
    If not for Druid giving out 25 might on it's own, Heal tempest may have had a niche, but alas.

    Without that might druid would be gone from end game as its heals are weak spirit is not as good as tempest heal and dmg

    I would prefer Druids Heal output being buffed (or every other Support being brought down, further incentivizing running double supports) over being stuck forever and ever with Druid being the only viable solo heal.

    Spirits and Spotter (among other unique per boss Utility) already give it it's spot as most uniquely offensive Support and requiring a second Might Stacker/Support would open up the way for Tempest, Firebrand, Scrapper, Scourge (at least if it's Might stacking capabilities are buffed) etc. a lot, making them a lot more viable choices over always just running a Druid.

    Damage is already creeped by so much, I don't think 10 man Supports should be a thing personally, especially if there's really just one choice for it.
    Just like what Chronos used to be for Boon supports, having one class/spec being the only viable choice for a role for years just gets boring, and design wise no other support will ever compete with Druid unless it essentially does the same exact thing with 10 Man Might, Heals + Spotter and Spirit equivalent.
    5 Man supports open up so much comp customisation depending on sub group needs, but as long as there is a 10 Man support doing it all on top of providing unique buffs, we are forever stuck with that.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Laila Lightness.8742Laila Lightness.8742 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 28, 2020

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:

    @Kuma.1503 said:
    If not for Druid giving out 25 might on it's own, Heal tempest may have had a niche, but alas.

    Without that might druid would be gone from end game as its heals are weak spirit is not as good as tempest heal and dmg

    I would prefer Druids Heal output being buffed (or every other Support being brought down, further incentivizing running double supports) over being stuck forever and ever with Druid being the only viable solo heal.

    Spirits and Spotter (among other unique per boss Utility) already give it it's spot as most uniquely offensive Support and requiring a second Might Stacker/Support would open up the way for Tempest, Firebrand, Scrapper, Scourge (at least if it's Might stacking capabilities are buffed) etc. a lot, making them a lot more viable choices over always just running a Druid.

    Damage is already creeped by so much, I don't think 10 man Supports should be a thing personally, especially if there's really just one choice for it.
    Just like what Chronos used to be for Boon supports, having one class/spec being the only viable choice for a role for years just gets boring.

    I would want spirit to be toned down maybe change their passive effect over to necro who needs it more. Ranger already got dps role it dont need to be healer. And no druid shouldnt get heal buffed it would just make bunker druid comeback. I rather want support to be moved to other classes like tempest,scourge and scrapper. I dont want druid viable as ranger can choose to be a dps now instead and it would be better over all that anet just let chrono druid meta fade away. I dont like unique buffs like frost spirit as it forces the skill in. Gotl can have swiftness instead of might

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 28, 2020

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:

    @Kuma.1503 said:
    If not for Druid giving out 25 might on it's own, Heal tempest may have had a niche, but alas.

    Without that might druid would be gone from end game as its heals are weak spirit is not as good as tempest heal and dmg

    I would prefer Druids Heal output being buffed (or every other Support being brought down, further incentivizing running double supports) over being stuck forever and ever with Druid being the only viable solo heal.

    Spirits and Spotter (among other unique per boss Utility) already give it it's spot as most uniquely offensive Support and requiring a second Might Stacker/Support would open up the way for Tempest, Firebrand, Scrapper, Scourge (at least if it's Might stacking capabilities are buffed) etc. a lot, making them a lot more viable choices over always just running a Druid.

    Damage is already creeped by so much, I don't think 10 man Supports should be a thing personally, especially if there's really just one choice for it.
    Just like what Chronos used to be for Boon supports, having one class/spec being the only viable choice for a role for years just gets boring.

    I would want spirit to be toned down maybe change their passive effect over to necro who needs it more.

    Necro desperately needs something extra, I agree. Especially since Anet seems committed to never make it a top Tier DPS, Healer, Tank, Boon Support, anything - something to incentivize at least bringing one along could go a long way for diversity, and Vampiric Presence just ain't cutting it.

    Ranger already got dps role it dont need to be healer.
    I dont want druid viable as ranger can choose to be a dps now instead and it would be better over all that anet just let chrono druid meta fade away.

    I don't agree with that. Just like I don't want anyone who enjoys playing main healer but just happens to not like Druid to be screwed, I also don't want those who do enjoy Druid to be screwed. More class/spec diversity is always a good thing, and viability doesn't need to be "exchanged".
    Anet always does this (ex. nerfing condi Reaper to "make room" for Scourge, just leading to Reaper having a dead Grandmaster for years to come, and neither Reaper nor Scourge being a sufficiently powerful cDPS for years).
    It's great to have one profession be viable as Healer and DPS, or hell, even having two different viable Specs for the same role, leaving it to player preference.
    Player choice is king for longevity.

    And no druid shouldnt get heal buffed it would just make bunker druid comeback.

    Heal buffs could obviously be split to be PvE only (although I personally think supports are too powerful to begin with).

    I rather want support to be moved to other classes like tempest,scourge and scrapper. I dont like unique buffs like frost spirit as it forces the skill in. Gotl can have swiftness instead of might

    I'm not a huge fan of unique buffs either, especially if there is no parity between Professions. Otherwise they could provide unique choices for different on par comps.
    But as it is we just have specific meta roles like 10 man Might Stacker and Healer, filled by really only one Spec of one Profession, on top of that one profession having unique buffs for which no one else can provide something on par.

    That's how we get stuck with always playing with/as one and the same thing for years.
    So either other specs need unique on par buffs, or they need to be phased out completely. Same with 10 man target caps. They might be fine for niche use skills like Stand Your Ground (although I'm not 100% sold on that either), but not as whole role defining constant thing like Might stacking.

    Overall though, I still want Druid to be a viable choice, I just don't want it to be the only choice.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Galmac.4680Galmac.4680 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 28, 2020

    For me I can't get into my head, that a necromancer is supportive. Someone who deals with the dead, with conditions (even that he can't do really good). And then called scourge.

    Praise Joko! And Bangar, we need to talk!

  • @Asum.4960 said:

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:

    @Kuma.1503 said:
    If not for Druid giving out 25 might on it's own, Heal tempest may have had a niche, but alas.

    Without that might druid would be gone from end game as its heals are weak spirit is not as good as tempest heal and dmg

    I would prefer Druids Heal output being buffed (or every other Support being brought down, further incentivizing running double supports) over being stuck forever and ever with Druid being the only viable solo heal.

    Spirits and Spotter (among other unique per boss Utility) already give it it's spot as most uniquely offensive Support and requiring a second Might Stacker/Support would open up the way for Tempest, Firebrand, Scrapper, Scourge (at least if it's Might stacking capabilities are buffed) etc. a lot, making them a lot more viable choices over always just running a Druid.

    Damage is already creeped by so much, I don't think 10 man Supports should be a thing personally, especially if there's really just one choice for it.
    Just like what Chronos used to be for Boon supports, having one class/spec being the only viable choice for a role for years just gets boring.

    I would want spirit to be toned down maybe change their passive effect over to necro who needs it more.

    Necro desperately needs something extra, I agree. Especially since Anet seems committed to never make it a top Tier DPS, Healer, Tank, Boon Support, anything - something to incentivize at least bringing one along could go a long way for diversity, and Vampiric Presence just ain't cutting it.

    Ranger already got dps role it dont need to be healer.
    I dont want druid viable as ranger can choose to be a dps now instead and it would be better over all that anet just let chrono druid meta fade away.

    I don't agree with that. Just like I don't want anyone who enjoys playing support but just happens to not like Druid to be screwed, I also don't want those who do enjoy Druid to be screwed. More class/spec diversity is always a good thing, and viability doesn't need to be "exchanged".
    Anet always does this (ex. nerfing condi Reaper to "make room" for Scourge, just leading to Reaper having a dead Grandmaster for years to come, and neither Reaper nor Scourge being a sufficiently powerful cDPS for years).
    It's great to have one profession be viable as Healer and DPS, or hell, even having two different viable Specs for the same role, leaving it to player preference.
    Player choice is king for longevity.

    And no druid shouldnt get heal buffed it would just make bunker druid comeback.

    Heal buffs could obviously be split to be PvE only (although I personally think supports are too powerful to begin with).

    I rather want support to be moved to other classes like tempest,scourge and scrapper. I dont like unique buffs like frost spirit as it forces the skill in. Gotl can have swiftness instead of might

    I'm not a huge fan of unique buffs either, especially if there is no parity between Professions. Otherwise they could provide unique choices for different on par comps.
    But as it is we just have specific meta roles like 10 man Might Stacker and Healer, filled by really only one Spec of one Profession, on top of that one profession having unique buffs for which no one else can provide something on par.

    That's how we get stuck with always playing with/as one and the same thing for years.
    So either other specs need unique on par buffs, or they need to be phased out completely. Same with 10 man target caps. They might be fine for niche use skills like Stand Your Ground (although I'm not 100% sold on that either), but not as whole role defining constant thing like Might stacking.

    Overall though, I still want Druid to be a viable choice, I just don't want it to be the only choice.

    I dont like 100% upkeep idea either as it encourages reliance on others boons . Everyone should be contributing to buffing

  • @Aisling.5901 said:
    It's so annoying to see how even though engineer, revenant and necromancer all have viable healing builds, most groups will specify that they only want a firebrand or druid. Just really sucks that the support classes are so unbalanced so that firebrand and druid are pretty much the only meta. There's almost never any specifications for damage classes because for the most part every class has a decent damage build, but even though there are nine classes in the game only two are support meta. Yet as said; engineer, revenant and necromancer have healing builds while thief and mesmer have fragments of them.

    Doesn't seem like much effort has been put into balancing the support meta so that each support class brings a unique benefit which makes them all similarly appealing in end game content.

    If all classes have a support build that is equal in terms of boon and heal output, it's kinda pointless even having different classes, since they would all be the same.

    No balancing is needed, player adaptation is needed to simply use the builds that work for particular encounters. That said, more build diversity is always better.

    There is already a LOT of diversity when it comes to support builds, the problem is not the builds, it's the players who refuse to accept them. Not just that, but (I assume you are talking about PvE) there are many encounters where condi removal is not required on a large scale, this means that while
    Engineer support is awesome in WvW where there are a lot of targets, one of its main strengths is condition removal and that is just not required in 99% of PvE encounters. Same goes for D/F Auramancer. Or Shout Warrior. Necro is also excellent in WvW but nobody uses it there either, Transfusion is one of the best support traits in the game, if not THE best. Necro as an off-healer is a hard carry in all content, Marshalls stats and it can do respectable damage at the same time.

    Not every class can be equal. Why not just play a different class?

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 28, 2020

    @Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

    @Aisling.5901 said:
    It's so annoying to see how even though engineer, revenant and necromancer all have viable healing builds, most groups will specify that they only want a firebrand or druid. Just really sucks that the support classes are so unbalanced so that firebrand and druid are pretty much the only meta. There's almost never any specifications for damage classes because for the most part every class has a decent damage build, but even though there are nine classes in the game only two are support meta. Yet as said; engineer, revenant and necromancer have healing builds while thief and mesmer have fragments of them.

    Doesn't seem like much effort has been put into balancing the support meta so that each support class brings a unique benefit which makes them all similarly appealing in end game content.

    If all classes have a support build that is equal in terms of boon and heal output, it's kinda pointless even having different classes, since they would all be the same.

    No balancing is needed, player adaptation is needed to simply use the builds that work for particular encounters. That said, more build diversity is always better.

    There is already a LOT of diversity when it comes to support builds, the problem is not the builds, it's the players who refuse to accept them. Not just that, but (I assume you are talking about PvE) there are many encounters where condi removal is not required on a large scale, this means that while
    Engineer support is awesome in WvW where there are a lot of targets, one of its main strengths is condition removal and that is just not required in 99% of PvE encounters. Same goes for D/F Auramancer. Or Shout Warrior. Necro is also excellent in WvW but nobody uses it there either, Transfusion is one of the best support traits in the game, if not THE best. Necro as an off-healer is a hard carry in all content, Marshalls stats and it can do respectable damage at the same time.

    Not every class can be equal. Why not just play a different class?

    It's not really about every Spec being able to do everything in pretty much the same way which yes isn't ideal either, but we are very far from that being an issue.
    Point is if you run one heal, it's 100% of the time going to be Druid.
    If you run a past training mostly unneeded offheal, sure there is more variety for that slot, but it's still going to be pretty much 100% of the time Druid + X.

    It doesn't matter how many support builds there are if you technically only need one healer, and there is only one healer with 10 man Might stacking + heals, as well as being stacked with unique damage increasing buffs that no other 5 man support can compete with on top of that.

    If Druid had the 10 man Might and Heals and let's say Scourge for example Spirits and Spotter like effects or vice versa, there could be a better case for diversity and taking both even in proficient groups, but as is Druid is the be all and end all Heal support for 10 man content, and has been for many stale years now.

    Sure you can make running two 5 man healers/might stackers work, but why do that when one Spec can fill that role alone and get extra unique buffs like Spirits and Spotter on top of that and freeing a slot for another DPS? The tradeoff is just way too big, making it not really surprising that most players aren't particularly accepting of other builds over the more simple, better and tried and used to solution.

    Then in 5 man content the problem torch is passed on from unique target caps and buffs to rather exclusive boons like Quickness and Alacrity.
    Ofc not every profession should be able to chose to provide any given buff or boon as that would feel rather samey, but the game could do with a lot more choice still imo.

    In 10 man content though, currently there just isn't a choice for the Heal spot. Ideally you would ask yourself, do we want Spirit's and Spotter (Druid), Transfusion (Scourge), build in Quickness with our heal (Firebrand), etc.
    But only one can support and buff 10 people, so the answer is always get a Druid and those extra damage buffs, and every other support is overlooked unless getting shooed-in as mostly unnecessary "off-heal".

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 28, 2020

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

    @Aisling.5901 said:
    It's so annoying to see how even though engineer, revenant and necromancer all have viable healing builds, most groups will specify that they only want a firebrand or druid. Just really sucks that the support classes are so unbalanced so that firebrand and druid are pretty much the only meta. There's almost never any specifications for damage classes because for the most part every class has a decent damage build, but even though there are nine classes in the game only two are support meta. Yet as said; engineer, revenant and necromancer have healing builds while thief and mesmer have fragments of them.

    Doesn't seem like much effort has been put into balancing the support meta so that each support class brings a unique benefit which makes them all similarly appealing in end game content.

    If all classes have a support build that is equal in terms of boon and heal output, it's kinda pointless even having different classes, since they would all be the same.

    No balancing is needed, player adaptation is needed to simply use the builds that work for particular encounters. That said, more build diversity is always better.

    There is already a LOT of diversity when it comes to support builds, the problem is not the builds, it's the players who refuse to accept them. Not just that, but (I assume you are talking about PvE) there are many encounters where condi removal is not required on a large scale, this means that while
    Engineer support is awesome in WvW where there are a lot of targets, one of its main strengths is condition removal and that is just not required in 99% of PvE encounters. Same goes for D/F Auramancer. Or Shout Warrior. Necro is also excellent in WvW but nobody uses it there either, Transfusion is one of the best support traits in the game, if not THE best. Necro as an off-healer is a hard carry in all content, Marshalls stats and it can do respectable damage at the same time.

    Not every class can be equal. Why not just play a different class?

    It's not really about every Spec being able to do everything in pretty much the same way which yes isn't ideal either, but we are very far from that being an issue.
    Point is if you run one heal, it's 100% of the time going to be Druid.
    If you run a past training mostly unneeded offheal, sure there is more variety for that slot, but it's still going to be pretty much 100% of the time Druid + X.

    It doesn't matter how many support builds there are if you technically only need one healer, and there is only one healer with 10 man Might stacking + heals, as well as being stacked with unique damage increasing buffs that no other 5 man support can compete with on top of that.

    If Druid had the 10 man Might and Heals and let's say Scourge for example Spirits and Spotter like effects or vice versa, there could be a better case for diversity and taking both even in proficient groups, but as is Druid is the be all and end all Heal support for 10 man content, and has been for many stale years now.

    Sure you can make running two 5 man healers/might stackers work, but why do that when one Spec can fill that role alone and get extra unique buffs like Spirits and Spotter on top of that and freeing a slot for another DPS? The tradeoff is just way too big, making it not really surprising that most players aren't particularly accepting of other builds over the more simple, better and tried and used to solution.

    Then in 5 man content the problem torch is passed on from unique target caps and buffs to rather exclusive boons like Quickness and Alacrity.
    Ofc not every profession should be able to chose to provide any given buff or boon as that would feel rather samey, but the game could do with a lot more choice still imo.

    In 10 man content though, currently there just isn't a choice for the Heal spot. Ideally you would ask yourself, do we want Spirit's and Spotter (Druid), Transfusion (Scourge), build in Quickness with our heal (Firebrand), etc.
    But only one can support and buff 10 people, so the answer is always get a Druid and those extra damage buffs.

    But one will always be better than the rest for some particular content, therefore, it will be preferred. If you make multiple classes as good as each other for that content, then they will need to be the same. Which is pointless.

    For instance, Druid is not used in WvW like it is in PvE because there are better options for support. Spirits are not mobile enough and Druid has massive telegraphs. If you want to make something else as good as Druid for existing PvE content then you need to make something else have the same unique buffs, spotter, might stacking and healing options, otherwise Druid will still be better than the other options and therefore preferred.

    A change in the content is what is needed, not a change to the other classes to make them as good as a Druid. This is just going to result in homogenous classes. There are already many good support builds as mentioned, but the PvE content does not require their strengths. Do not balance the classes around the content, balance the content around the classes.

    Add encounters that favor different types of support. Require a lot of condition removal, areas/mechanics that need to be skipped with stealth or result in death, bosses like sloth (but faster and in a larger area) that move around a lot more so the effect of spirits are not as good because the boss will move out of range before the CD on the spirit teleport is up. Like the Leyline Anomaly, what good are spirits in that content? Useless. Along these lines, add a boss where you will need super speed to keep up with it. Or one that downs people regularly regardless of what you do. Or one that swaps positions and a portal from a mesmer is needed. Or one that eats people, but mesmer clones make it vulnerable or something.

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:

    @Kuma.1503 said:
    If not for Druid giving out 25 might on it's own, Heal tempest may have had a niche, but alas.

    Without that might druid would be gone from end game as its heals are weak spirit is not as good as tempest heal and dmg

    I would prefer Druids Heal output being buffed (or every other Support being brought down, further incentivizing running double supports) over being stuck forever and ever with Druid being the only viable solo heal.

    Spirits and Spotter (among other unique per boss Utility) already give it it's spot as most uniquely offensive Support and requiring a second Might Stacker/Support would open up the way for Tempest, Firebrand, Scrapper, Scourge (at least if it's Might stacking capabilities are buffed) etc. a lot, making them a lot more viable choices over always just running a Druid.

    Damage is already creeped by so much, I don't think 10 man Supports should be a thing personally, especially if there's really just one choice for it.
    Just like what Chronos used to be for Boon supports, having one class/spec being the only viable choice for a role for years just gets boring.

    I would want spirit to be toned down maybe change their passive effect over to necro who needs it more.

    Necro desperately needs something extra, I agree. Especially since Anet seems committed to never make it a top Tier DPS, Healer, Tank, Boon Support, anything - something to incentivize at least bringing one along could go a long way for diversity, and Vampiric Presence just ain't cutting it.

    Ranger already got dps role it dont need to be healer.
    I dont want druid viable as ranger can choose to be a dps now instead and it would be better over all that anet just let chrono druid meta fade away.

    I don't agree with that. Just like I don't want anyone who enjoys playing support but just happens to not like Druid to be screwed, I also don't want those who do enjoy Druid to be screwed. More class/spec diversity is always a good thing, and viability doesn't need to be "exchanged".
    Anet always does this (ex. nerfing condi Reaper to "make room" for Scourge, just leading to Reaper having a dead Grandmaster for years to come, and neither Reaper nor Scourge being a sufficiently powerful cDPS for years).
    It's great to have one profession be viable as Healer and DPS, or hell, even having two different viable Specs for the same role, leaving it to player preference.
    Player choice is king for longevity.

    And no druid shouldnt get heal buffed it would just make bunker druid comeback.

    Heal buffs could obviously be split to be PvE only (although I personally think supports are too powerful to begin with).

    I rather want support to be moved to other classes like tempest,scourge and scrapper. I dont like unique buffs like frost spirit as it forces the skill in. Gotl can have swiftness instead of might

    I'm not a huge fan of unique buffs either, especially if there is no parity between Professions. Otherwise they could provide unique choices for different on par comps.
    But as it is we just have specific meta roles like 10 man Might Stacker and Healer, filled by really only one Spec of one Profession, on top of that one profession having unique buffs for which no one else can provide something on par.

    That's how we get stuck with always playing with/as one and the same thing for years.
    So either other specs need unique on par buffs, or they need to be phased out completely. Same with 10 man target caps. They might be fine for niche use skills like Stand Your Ground (although I'm not 100% sold on that either), but not as whole role defining constant thing like Might stacking.

    Overall though, I still want Druid to be a viable choice, I just don't want it to be the only choice.

    Cant agree with the 5 man might/spirts on druid not just becouse I play one but we had that before rememeber?
    And what did people take 2 druids so the change actualy helped getting diffrent support into the squads that play safe with 2 healers instead of 1.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:

    @Kuma.1503 said:
    If not for Druid giving out 25 might on it's own, Heal tempest may have had a niche, but alas.

    Without that might druid would be gone from end game as its heals are weak spirit is not as good as tempest heal and dmg

    I would prefer Druids Heal output being buffed (or every other Support being brought down, further incentivizing running double supports) over being stuck forever and ever with Druid being the only viable solo heal.

    Spirits and Spotter (among other unique per boss Utility) already give it it's spot as most uniquely offensive Support and requiring a second Might Stacker/Support would open up the way for Tempest, Firebrand, Scrapper, Scourge (at least if it's Might stacking capabilities are buffed) etc. a lot, making them a lot more viable choices over always just running a Druid.

    Damage is already creeped by so much, I don't think 10 man Supports should be a thing personally, especially if there's really just one choice for it.
    Just like what Chronos used to be for Boon supports, having one class/spec being the only viable choice for a role for years just gets boring.

    I would want spirit to be toned down maybe change their passive effect over to necro who needs it more.

    Necro desperately needs something extra, I agree. Especially since Anet seems committed to never make it a top Tier DPS, Healer, Tank, Boon Support, anything - something to incentivize at least bringing one along could go a long way for diversity, and Vampiric Presence just ain't cutting it.

    Ranger already got dps role it dont need to be healer.
    I dont want druid viable as ranger can choose to be a dps now instead and it would be better over all that anet just let chrono druid meta fade away.

    I don't agree with that. Just like I don't want anyone who enjoys playing support but just happens to not like Druid to be screwed, I also don't want those who do enjoy Druid to be screwed. More class/spec diversity is always a good thing, and viability doesn't need to be "exchanged".
    Anet always does this (ex. nerfing condi Reaper to "make room" for Scourge, just leading to Reaper having a dead Grandmaster for years to come, and neither Reaper nor Scourge being a sufficiently powerful cDPS for years).
    It's great to have one profession be viable as Healer and DPS, or hell, even having two different viable Specs for the same role, leaving it to player preference.
    Player choice is king for longevity.

    And no druid shouldnt get heal buffed it would just make bunker druid comeback.

    Heal buffs could obviously be split to be PvE only (although I personally think supports are too powerful to begin with).

    I rather want support to be moved to other classes like tempest,scourge and scrapper. I dont like unique buffs like frost spirit as it forces the skill in. Gotl can have swiftness instead of might

    I'm not a huge fan of unique buffs either, especially if there is no parity between Professions. Otherwise they could provide unique choices for different on par comps.
    But as it is we just have specific meta roles like 10 man Might Stacker and Healer, filled by really only one Spec of one Profession, on top of that one profession having unique buffs for which no one else can provide something on par.

    That's how we get stuck with always playing with/as one and the same thing for years.
    So either other specs need unique on par buffs, or they need to be phased out completely. Same with 10 man target caps. They might be fine for niche use skills like Stand Your Ground (although I'm not 100% sold on that either), but not as whole role defining constant thing like Might stacking.

    Overall though, I still want Druid to be a viable choice, I just don't want it to be the only choice.

    Cant agree with the 5 man might/spirts on druid not just becouse I play one but we had that before rememeber?
    And what did people take 2 druids so the change actualy helped getting diffrent support into the squads that play safe with 2 healers instead of 1.

    Not the Spirits, no, they are likely better kept as some of the 10 man exceptions (or reworked to be entirely defensive/supportive in effect with Frost and Sun), bc as you say otherwise it's just always two Druid's instead of one again.
    Grace of the Land (and probably things like Heat Sync) though I personally would prefer as 5 man, making room for another Support/Might Stacker.

    Otherwise I just don't really see the opportunity for any other spec to ever be really viable as main heal other than Druid over the lifetime of GW2, unless they are just given the same 10 Man Might Stacking and Spirit/Spotter like damage buffs as well.

    It's pretty much the same issue we had with Chrono for years, that unless another spec just got to do basically everything as well, nothing would ever compete with it, but people argued against nerfing it stating that would just mean running more Chronos.
    But in the end the nerfs did what they were supposed to, even if it was a painful road of Trial and Error, and I for one am glad we aren't stuck with Chrono for every 5 man and double Chrono for every 10 man content anymore for all eternity, and instead went to at least Chrono, Renegade and Firebrand being used, which while still not immense diversity is at least triple the viable boon support specs than what we had before.

    I just think it's about time the same happens for the Might and heal main support role, how exactly idc.
    I just don't want to see the same spec in every single group for years and years and years without any diversity or consideration of alternatives because it's simply so far ahead/provides tools nothing else can come even close to.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • @Asum.4960 said:

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:

    @Kuma.1503 said:
    If not for Druid giving out 25 might on it's own, Heal tempest may have had a niche, but alas.

    Without that might druid would be gone from end game as its heals are weak spirit is not as good as tempest heal and dmg

    I would prefer Druids Heal output being buffed (or every other Support being brought down, further incentivizing running double supports) over being stuck forever and ever with Druid being the only viable solo heal.

    Spirits and Spotter (among other unique per boss Utility) already give it it's spot as most uniquely offensive Support and requiring a second Might Stacker/Support would open up the way for Tempest, Firebrand, Scrapper, Scourge (at least if it's Might stacking capabilities are buffed) etc. a lot, making them a lot more viable choices over always just running a Druid.

    Damage is already creeped by so much, I don't think 10 man Supports should be a thing personally, especially if there's really just one choice for it.
    Just like what Chronos used to be for Boon supports, having one class/spec being the only viable choice for a role for years just gets boring.

    I would want spirit to be toned down maybe change their passive effect over to necro who needs it more.

    Necro desperately needs something extra, I agree. Especially since Anet seems committed to never make it a top Tier DPS, Healer, Tank, Boon Support, anything - something to incentivize at least bringing one along could go a long way for diversity, and Vampiric Presence just ain't cutting it.

    Ranger already got dps role it dont need to be healer.
    I dont want druid viable as ranger can choose to be a dps now instead and it would be better over all that anet just let chrono druid meta fade away.

    I don't agree with that. Just like I don't want anyone who enjoys playing support but just happens to not like Druid to be screwed, I also don't want those who do enjoy Druid to be screwed. More class/spec diversity is always a good thing, and viability doesn't need to be "exchanged".
    Anet always does this (ex. nerfing condi Reaper to "make room" for Scourge, just leading to Reaper having a dead Grandmaster for years to come, and neither Reaper nor Scourge being a sufficiently powerful cDPS for years).
    It's great to have one profession be viable as Healer and DPS, or hell, even having two different viable Specs for the same role, leaving it to player preference.
    Player choice is king for longevity.

    And no druid shouldnt get heal buffed it would just make bunker druid comeback.

    Heal buffs could obviously be split to be PvE only (although I personally think supports are too powerful to begin with).

    I rather want support to be moved to other classes like tempest,scourge and scrapper. I dont like unique buffs like frost spirit as it forces the skill in. Gotl can have swiftness instead of might

    I'm not a huge fan of unique buffs either, especially if there is no parity between Professions. Otherwise they could provide unique choices for different on par comps.
    But as it is we just have specific meta roles like 10 man Might Stacker and Healer, filled by really only one Spec of one Profession, on top of that one profession having unique buffs for which no one else can provide something on par.

    That's how we get stuck with always playing with/as one and the same thing for years.
    So either other specs need unique on par buffs, or they need to be phased out completely. Same with 10 man target caps. They might be fine for niche use skills like Stand Your Ground (although I'm not 100% sold on that either), but not as whole role defining constant thing like Might stacking.

    Overall though, I still want Druid to be a viable choice, I just don't want it to be the only choice.

    Cant agree with the 5 man might/spirts on druid not just becouse I play one but we had that before rememeber?
    And what did people take 2 druids so the change actualy helped getting diffrent support into the squads that play safe with 2 healers instead of 1.

    Not the Spirits, no, they are likely better kept as some of the 10 man exceptions (or reworked to be entirely defensive/supportive in effect with Frost and Sun), bc as you say otherwise it's just always two Druid's instead of one again.
    Grace of the Land (and probably things like Heat Sync) though I personally would prefer as 5 man, making room for another Support/Might Stacker.

    Otherwise I just don't really see the opportunity for any other spec to ever be really viable as main heal other than Druid over the lifetime of GW2, unless they are just given the same 10 Man Might Stacking and Spirit/Spotter like damage buffs as well.

    It's pretty much the same issue we had with Chrono for years, that unless another spec just got to do basically everything as well, nothing would ever compete with it, but people argued against nerfing it stating that would just mean running more Chronos.
    But in the end the nerfs did what they were supposed to, even if it was a painful road of Trial and Error, and I for one am glad we aren't stuck with Chrono for every 5 man and double Chrono for every 10 man content anymore for all eternity, and instead went to at least Chrono, Renegade and Firebrand being used, which while still not immense diversity is at least triple the viable boon support specs than what we had before.

    I just think it's about time the same happens for the Might and heal main support role, how exactly idc.
    I just don't want to see the same spec in every single group for years and years and years without any diversity or consideration of alternatives because it's simply so far ahead/provides tools nothing else can come even close to.

    My issue with gotl is its to easy to use for might if it was an more common boon like swiftness its ok but it shouldnt have might. Might is what guardians and eles do after all. Always felt that it was out of place on ranger

  • Kuma.1503Kuma.1503 Member ✭✭✭

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:

    @Kuma.1503 said:
    If not for Druid giving out 25 might on it's own, Heal tempest may have had a niche, but alas.

    Without that might druid would be gone from end game as its heals are weak spirit is not as good as tempest heal and dmg

    I would prefer Druids Heal output being buffed (or every other Support being brought down, further incentivizing running double supports) over being stuck forever and ever with Druid being the only viable solo heal.

    Spirits and Spotter (among other unique per boss Utility) already give it it's spot as most uniquely offensive Support and requiring a second Might Stacker/Support would open up the way for Tempest, Firebrand, Scrapper, Scourge (at least if it's Might stacking capabilities are buffed) etc. a lot, making them a lot more viable choices over always just running a Druid.

    Damage is already creeped by so much, I don't think 10 man Supports should be a thing personally, especially if there's really just one choice for it.
    Just like what Chronos used to be for Boon supports, having one class/spec being the only viable choice for a role for years just gets boring.

    I would want spirit to be toned down maybe change their passive effect over to necro who needs it more.

    Necro desperately needs something extra, I agree. Especially since Anet seems committed to never make it a top Tier DPS, Healer, Tank, Boon Support, anything - something to incentivize at least bringing one along could go a long way for diversity, and Vampiric Presence just ain't cutting it.

    Ranger already got dps role it dont need to be healer.
    I dont want druid viable as ranger can choose to be a dps now instead and it would be better over all that anet just let chrono druid meta fade away.

    I don't agree with that. Just like I don't want anyone who enjoys playing support but just happens to not like Druid to be screwed, I also don't want those who do enjoy Druid to be screwed. More class/spec diversity is always a good thing, and viability doesn't need to be "exchanged".
    Anet always does this (ex. nerfing condi Reaper to "make room" for Scourge, just leading to Reaper having a dead Grandmaster for years to come, and neither Reaper nor Scourge being a sufficiently powerful cDPS for years).
    It's great to have one profession be viable as Healer and DPS, or hell, even having two different viable Specs for the same role, leaving it to player preference.
    Player choice is king for longevity.

    And no druid shouldnt get heal buffed it would just make bunker druid comeback.

    Heal buffs could obviously be split to be PvE only (although I personally think supports are too powerful to begin with).

    I rather want support to be moved to other classes like tempest,scourge and scrapper. I dont like unique buffs like frost spirit as it forces the skill in. Gotl can have swiftness instead of might

    I'm not a huge fan of unique buffs either, especially if there is no parity between Professions. Otherwise they could provide unique choices for different on par comps.
    But as it is we just have specific meta roles like 10 man Might Stacker and Healer, filled by really only one Spec of one Profession, on top of that one profession having unique buffs for which no one else can provide something on par.

    That's how we get stuck with always playing with/as one and the same thing for years.
    So either other specs need unique on par buffs, or they need to be phased out completely. Same with 10 man target caps. They might be fine for niche use skills like Stand Your Ground (although I'm not 100% sold on that either), but not as whole role defining constant thing like Might stacking.

    Overall though, I still want Druid to be a viable choice, I just don't want it to be the only choice.

    Cant agree with the 5 man might/spirts on druid not just becouse I play one but we had that before rememeber?
    And what did people take 2 druids so the change actualy helped getting diffrent support into the squads that play safe with 2 healers instead of 1.

    Not the Spirits, no, they are likely better kept as some of the 10 man exceptions (or reworked to be entirely defensive/supportive in effect with Frost and Sun), bc as you say otherwise it's just always two Druid's instead of one again.
    Grace of the Land (and probably things like Heat Sync) though I personally would prefer as 5 man, making room for another Support/Might Stacker.

    Otherwise I just don't really see the opportunity for any other spec to ever be really viable as main heal other than Druid over the lifetime of GW2, unless they are just given the same 10 Man Might Stacking and Spirit/Spotter like damage buffs as well.

    It's pretty much the same issue we had with Chrono for years, that unless another spec just got to do basically everything as well, nothing would ever compete with it, but people argued against nerfing it stating that would just mean running more Chronos.
    But in the end the nerfs did what they were supposed to, even if it was a painful road of Trial and Error, and I for one am glad we aren't stuck with Chrono for every 5 man and double Chrono for every 10 man content anymore for all eternity, and instead went to at least Chrono, Renegade and Firebrand being used, which while still not immense diversity is at least triple the viable boon support specs than what we had before.

    I just think it's about time the same happens for the Might and heal main support role, how exactly idc.
    I just don't want to see the same spec in every single group for years and years and years without any diversity or consideration of alternatives because it's simply so far ahead/provides tools nothing else can come even close to.

    My issue with gotl is its to easy to use for might if it was an more common boon like swiftness its ok but it shouldnt have might. Might is what guardians and eles do after all. Always felt that it was out of place on ranger

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:

    @Kuma.1503 said:
    If not for Druid giving out 25 might on it's own, Heal tempest may have had a niche, but alas.

    Without that might druid would be gone from end game as its heals are weak spirit is not as good as tempest heal and dmg

    I would prefer Druids Heal output being buffed (or every other Support being brought down, further incentivizing running double supports) over being stuck forever and ever with Druid being the only viable solo heal.

    Spirits and Spotter (among other unique per boss Utility) already give it it's spot as most uniquely offensive Support and requiring a second Might Stacker/Support would open up the way for Tempest, Firebrand, Scrapper, Scourge (at least if it's Might stacking capabilities are buffed) etc. a lot, making them a lot more viable choices over always just running a Druid.

    Damage is already creeped by so much, I don't think 10 man Supports should be a thing personally, especially if there's really just one choice for it.
    Just like what Chronos used to be for Boon supports, having one class/spec being the only viable choice for a role for years just gets boring.

    I would want spirit to be toned down maybe change their passive effect over to necro who needs it more.

    Necro desperately needs something extra, I agree. Especially since Anet seems committed to never make it a top Tier DPS, Healer, Tank, Boon Support, anything - something to incentivize at least bringing one along could go a long way for diversity, and Vampiric Presence just ain't cutting it.

    Ranger already got dps role it dont need to be healer.
    I dont want druid viable as ranger can choose to be a dps now instead and it would be better over all that anet just let chrono druid meta fade away.

    I don't agree with that. Just like I don't want anyone who enjoys playing support but just happens to not like Druid to be screwed, I also don't want those who do enjoy Druid to be screwed. More class/spec diversity is always a good thing, and viability doesn't need to be "exchanged".
    Anet always does this (ex. nerfing condi Reaper to "make room" for Scourge, just leading to Reaper having a dead Grandmaster for years to come, and neither Reaper nor Scourge being a sufficiently powerful cDPS for years).
    It's great to have one profession be viable as Healer and DPS, or hell, even having two different viable Specs for the same role, leaving it to player preference.
    Player choice is king for longevity.

    And no druid shouldnt get heal buffed it would just make bunker druid comeback.

    Heal buffs could obviously be split to be PvE only (although I personally think supports are too powerful to begin with).

    I rather want support to be moved to other classes like tempest,scourge and scrapper. I dont like unique buffs like frost spirit as it forces the skill in. Gotl can have swiftness instead of might

    I'm not a huge fan of unique buffs either, especially if there is no parity between Professions. Otherwise they could provide unique choices for different on par comps.
    But as it is we just have specific meta roles like 10 man Might Stacker and Healer, filled by really only one Spec of one Profession, on top of that one profession having unique buffs for which no one else can provide something on par.

    That's how we get stuck with always playing with/as one and the same thing for years.
    So either other specs need unique on par buffs, or they need to be phased out completely. Same with 10 man target caps. They might be fine for niche use skills like Stand Your Ground (although I'm not 100% sold on that either), but not as whole role defining constant thing like Might stacking.

    Overall though, I still want Druid to be a viable choice, I just don't want it to be the only choice.

    Cant agree with the 5 man might/spirts on druid not just becouse I play one but we had that before rememeber?
    And what did people take 2 druids so the change actualy helped getting diffrent support into the squads that play safe with 2 healers instead of 1.

    Not the Spirits, no, they are likely better kept as some of the 10 man exceptions (or reworked to be entirely defensive/supportive in effect with Frost and Sun), bc as you say otherwise it's just always two Druid's instead of one again.
    Grace of the Land (and probably things like Heat Sync) though I personally would prefer as 5 man, making room for another Support/Might Stacker.

    Otherwise I just don't really see the opportunity for any other spec to ever be really viable as main heal other than Druid over the lifetime of GW2, unless they are just given the same 10 Man Might Stacking and Spirit/Spotter like damage buffs as well.

    It's pretty much the same issue we had with Chrono for years, that unless another spec just got to do basically everything as well, nothing would ever compete with it, but people argued against nerfing it stating that would just mean running more Chronos.
    But in the end the nerfs did what they were supposed to, even if it was a painful road of Trial and Error, and I for one am glad we aren't stuck with Chrono for every 5 man and double Chrono for every 10 man content anymore for all eternity, and instead went to at least Chrono, Renegade and Firebrand being used, which while still not immense diversity is at least triple the viable boon support specs than what we had before.

    I just think it's about time the same happens for the Might and heal main support role, how exactly idc.
    I just don't want to see the same spec in every single group for years and years and years without any diversity or consideration of alternatives because it's simply so far ahead/provides tools nothing else can come even close to.

    My issue with gotl is its to easy to use for might if it was an more common boon like swiftness its ok but it shouldnt have might. Might is what guardians and eles do after all. Always felt that it was out of place on ranger

    They could give Grace of the land Prot and allow Ranger to apply Rugged Growth to all allies they apply protection to. Ranger would still grant some might from Call of The Wild and Frost spirit, but not 25 might, opening up room to run A Tempest or Renegade in the 2nd slot

    For Tempest, On top of Granting might, perhaps the damage bonus from Transcendent Tempest could apply to up to 5-10 targets in an area around the tempest. That would make tempest more desirable as an offensive support.

    Another idea would be to change the functionality of Sand Squall. Instead of extending boons, it could reduce the cooldown of all skills by 3 seconds for all allies affected. This would allow Tempest to boost the effectiveness of Alacrity, making them a desirable choice even if they cannot grant Alacrity themselves.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Rev two top tier builds. Condi renegede and support renegade. They are in very high demand everywhere.

    Engi has strong power holo build

    Ya.. necro the unwanted step child of PvE. It has no good damage or support builds. GL

  • Tiilimon.6094Tiilimon.6094 Member ✭✭✭

    Imo all support is perfectly viable, but people prefer to have the fastest possible runs.

    As a srapper I can drag players through pve content who simply cant find the dodge key, but I dont contribute to dps in any other way than keeping others alive and booned up through condi conversion.

    A druid for example, will have a harder time keeping low skilled players alive, but will provide a quicker run for a higher skilled group.

  • DirtyDan.4759DirtyDan.4759 Member ✭✭✭

    Firebrand and Druid are picked because of the offensive buffs. If you have double chrono can you bring literally any offhealer. Druid is a fixed build but can still be replaced by a soulbeast with spirits and a tempest or herald.

  • The issue is that the healers are too unique. While most dps can be swapped out 1 to 1 swapping out a druid requires that you swap the healer, the squad might source, and bring a soulbeast for spirits.

    Similar thing for healbrand in fractals.

    Druid is actually easy to replace when you have a different might source such as a boon thief just bring a soulbeast as well and you're fine.

    Similar thing for healbrand in fractals.

    A lot of groups aren't going to do that so you have the rigid support meta.

  • Kodama.6453Kodama.6453 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Engineer is still open to get a dedicated support elite spec.
    If they give us an elite spec that is able to give important boons to allies (high might stacks + either quickness or alacrity), then engineer can very well be a meta support.

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 1, 2020

    @Tiilimon.6094 said:
    Imo all support is perfectly viable, but people prefer to have the fastest possible runs.

    I wouldn't say that. Yes every support spec has an use. But perfectly viable? I doubt that. Fastest runs? Yes definetly. That's just how the world works nowadays. People want fast and smooth kills for bosses, so they can use the time they saved by being fast, to do something else.

    The problem is more like:
    Why is support druid allowed to be meta for 5 years.
    Yes you can completely swap it out right now.
    For example: my group runs double heal/tank firebrand on soulless horror, 3 condi-renegades with righteous rebel for alacrity, 1 berserker for banners, 1 dps scourge for epi, and at least one soulbeast for sunspirit.

    The problem with some of the support specs: they are completely busted op.
    Druid can heal and provide important boons and unique buffs to the group (spirits, spotter)
    Firebrand can heal, and provide it's subgroup with quickness and aegis + stability. Which lets you ignore a lot of mechanics.
    Renegade (healer) has insane healing output, and can do perma 10 man alacrity

    That's the three busted healers.

    Now there's some others:
    Heal/boonthief: theoretically busted, as it provides all boons except alacrity and heals a bit. The fact that not every boss gives plasma when stealing, makes it not busted. I think this is actually balanced.

    Tempest: while it can provide very good boons, it's lacking alacrity or quickness, or other unique buffs. But I don't think giving these boons to the tempest would be a good idea.

    Scrapper: extremely good condi cleanser and good healer. Big problem with this class: there's no e game boss, that requires this amount of condi cleanse + it doesn't offer unique buffs as well. + I dont even know, if it can provide good might and it's only a 5man healer.

    Scourge: can pre-heal. Which is pretty strong. But the complete lack of any boons it can give makes it pretty useless for very good, good and normal groups. It's only good for carrying really bad players, because of short cooldowns on rez- supporting abilities.

    And you could also say:
    Warrior: healshout warrior. Meta in wvw. Bad in pve. Not enough boons to allies, + if you want a support warrior it should take the banners as well, so pretty restricted in it's ability choice. And its biggest strength is cleansing which isn't needed in pve.

    And there's mesmer. I don't exactly know what the problem is with this class, butt it seems that the healing abilities are just not enough. You basically only have one direct heal, everything else is coming from your "illusions".

    And the biggest problem: some classes can give some very important boons, by choosing to change gear a bit or just choosing another trait, but only loosing very little dps:
    Firebrand: perma quickness together with very good dps.
    Renegade: perma alacrity (need 3 for permanent uptime, but that's still to strong)

    As a srapper I can drag players through pve content who simply cant find the dodge key, but I dont contribute to dps in any other way than keeping others alive and booned up through condi conversion.

    A druid for example, will have a harder time keeping low skilled players alive, but will provide a quicker run for a higher skilled group.

  • Kodama.6453Kodama.6453 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 31, 2020

    @Nimon.7840 said:
    Druid can heal and provide important boons and unique buffs to the group (spirits, spotter, one wolf pack, moa stance)

    Druid can't use one wolf pack and moa stance.

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 1, 2020

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @Nimon.7840 said:
    Druid can heal and provide important boons and unique buffs to the group (spirits, spotter, one wolf pack, moa stance)

    Druid can't use one wolf pack and moa stance.

    Oh yeah my bad. I'll correct that.
    But soulbeast can, which increases group dps or can provide perma quickness with this setup: 3x guardian spec with feel my wrath, 1 soulbeast with moa stance and one wolf pack + one chrono (doesn't have to be in same group) with 10man signet.

    I thought they wanted to give different classes different boons to provide.
    But in my opinion, it gets worse and worse from patch to patch.

    We are currently messing around with 10man quickness chrono on some bosses. In combination with alacrigade that frees up another spot for a dps player.

    As you basically only have 3 supporters left: chrono, alacrigade, druid.
    (If you put alac dps + warrior together that's more than a full dps, so I don't count the banner slave as supporter)

    When I started raiding, there were 2 chronos, 2 bs, 2healer in every group.

    Yes it's good that some support abilities got changed to do 10 man support (like banners) so we don't have as many set classes for raids anymore.
    But at the same time, I don't like it. Because these abilities are absolutely overpowered.

    If at least multiple classes had such skills and anet would use the same mentality on all skills and traits...

    Yet we have banners, that boost dps of 10 players. While you don't have to sacrifice a lot of dps to use them.
    And on the other hand you have traits like vampiric presence that only affect 5 people, while only boosting dps by a little bit (basically a flat amount. If I remember correctly it was around 2k dps increase for the group, but a 3-4k personal dps loss.
    And that was, before they removed the wells trait out of the blue, to introduce the worst grandmaster trait of all classes.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Asum.4960 said:
    Necro desperately needs something extra, I agree. Especially since Anet seems committed to never make it a top Tier DPS, Healer, Tank, Boon Support, anything - something to incentivize at least bringing one along could go a long way for diversity, and Vampiric Presence just ain't cutting it.

    It's not that the necromancer need "extras", it's that the "extras" he already have are incredibly inadapted to PvE and thus hold no value for a group/raid. Debilitating conditions are either hard nerfed by defiance or simply without value due to how mobs/boss behave (when it's not both), boon corruption isn't adapted to fights in which you outnumber your foes nor does it's effect is especially valuble due to mobs/bosses imperviousness to debilitating conditions, the environment still don't output conditions at a steady pace that could be sent back reliably and life leeching just isn't that much of a thing in PvE.

    That said, elementalist's auras aren't much more valuable in PvE then what the necromancer got (imo their only value is in the boons/effect they can grant through traits when applied), ANet thoroughly killed projectile reflect in PvE (because lupicus projectiles were so OP he was killing himself with them), mobs conditions output is and have always been terrible which make cleansing terrible as well and, above all, defense in PvE is severly undervalued compared to offense because in this game your best defense is offense.

    More than any specific profession, it's PvE itself that need to be looked at. Defiance (whether there is a breakbar or not) need to show a reaction to boon hate, Projectile hate need to hod some value, The environment need to be able to weaken players through slow ramping conditions... etc.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 1, 2020

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    Necro desperately needs something extra, I agree. Especially since Anet seems committed to never make it a top Tier DPS, Healer, Tank, Boon Support, anything - something to incentivize at least bringing one along could go a long way for diversity, and Vampiric Presence just ain't cutting it.

    It's not that the necromancer need "extras", it's that the "extras" he already have are incredibly inadapted to PvE and thus hold no value for a group/raid. Debilitating conditions are either hard nerfed by defiance or simply without value due to how mobs/boss behave (when it's not both), boon corruption isn't adapted to fights in which you outnumber your foes nor does it's effect is especially valuble due to mobs/bosses imperviousness to debilitating conditions, the environment still don't output conditions at a steady pace that could be sent back reliably and life leeching just isn't that much of a thing in PvE.

    That said, elementalist's auras aren't much more valuable in PvE then what the necromancer got (imo their only value is in the boons/effect they can grant through traits when applied), ANet thoroughly killed projectile reflect in PvE (because lupicus projectiles were so OP he was killing himself with them), mobs conditions output is and have always been terrible which make cleansing terrible as well and, above all, defense in PvE is severly undervalued compared to offense because in this game your best defense is offense.

    More than any specific profession, it's PvE itself that need to be looked at. Defiance (whether there is a breakbar or not) need to show a reaction to boon hate, Projectile hate need to hod some value, The environment need to be able to weaken players through slow ramping conditions... etc.

    I do agree with you, although I don't think a major PvE rework to make the game more adaptive and complex is ever coming, quite the opposite. Anet seems very keen to simplify and tune down everything they can.

    I've for years floated around and advocated for the idea of introducing the need for a debuffer/utility archetype to GW2, in addition to the DPS, Boonsupport, Healer ish trinity we have, making room for more viable builds and varied compositions, and both helping along some underused specs in PvE as well as lessening the divide between the gamemodes and the need to split balance by making more traditionally PvP centric mechanics relevant in PvE.

    Now ofc for years we suffered from the Chronomancer problem, a spec which no matter how content was designed could just cover everything in one slot, be it boon rips, pulls, CC, debilitating conditions, tanking, boon support, portal/skips, reflects etc. etc., which imo massively held back the game, be in terms of content design, class design or composition diversity - but even with that issue slightly lessened now, I don't really see the game moving into a direction where more such utilities are needed much more frequently (and even more so, the majority of content, old content, being updated to make it relevant across the board).
    And even if they did, Necromancer still would not be anyones first choice in covering any of those aspects, especially with much more diverse and powerful kits like Mesmer and Revenant in play.

    So one can only hope (not really) that eventually after 8-10 years since launch they will design Necro for the game we have, rather than something else it could be.
    Other professions just got more lucky in that the designers didn't decide to shoehorn them into a small thematic niche, giving them the option to opt in and out of certain utilities, damage or tankiness, etc.
    Necro design, in the context of the game we got, is just fundamentally flawed in it's (lack of) choices.
    You can't choose between baked in selfish boon support and extra damage or group support, between corrupts and another (more fit for PvE) type of utility, Shroud centric or mostly Shroud less gameplay, etc.
    No matter what you do on Necro you will always be a form of tanky and immobile with some corrupts and mediocre to bad damage and heavily relying on it's Profession mechanic to do anything, which just doesn't work well for organised/endgame PvE as it' always been, is, and most likely will be.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Galmac.4680 said:
    For me I can't get into my head, that a necromancer is supportive. Someone who deals with the dead, with conditions (even that he can't do really good). And then called scourge.

    Necromancer was a supporter class in GW1. It was also a support in Diablo 2 which the original founders worked on. Necromancers might also take inspiration from real world Carrion feeders which reduce the spread of disease and help to keep land fertile.

  • Lazze.9870Lazze.9870 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 1, 2020

    @Nimon.7840 said:
    The problem with some of the support specs: they are completely busted op.
    Druid can heal and provide important boons and unique buffs to the group (spirits, spotter)
    Firebrand can heal, and provide it's subgroup with quickness and aegis + stability. Which lets you ignore a lot of mechanics.
    Renegade (healer) has insane healing output, and can do perma 10 man alacrity

    That's the three busted healers.

    Spirits and spotter are core ranger utitlities. That's not the fault of druid.

    Druid brings might and some healing. Nothing else. There is a reason this elite spec is pure garbage compared to other support options in PvP and WvW (with one exception; using it as an immobilizer in a wvw zerg, aka an utility spot). And the elite spec is stuck being garbage in every other game mode just because the combination of core ranger utilities and the might + healing from the druid elite spec has given it a role in the raiding meta from day 1. Even now, when it has fallen out of favor in fractal metas and easily can be replaced in raids too, people complain about it because it is a solid choice for raiding and the default go-to for a lot of pug groups.

    Druid isn't busted. Not even close. It's carried by core ranger. Firebrand on the other hand has meta builds in pve, pvp and wvw. THAT is busted. Scrapper is the meta cleanser and healer in wvw, and tempest are solid support in both pvp and wvw. There is variety. A lot of it. If you stick your head outside of pve once in a while.

    Druid is the least busted support spec in the entire game. It's underwhelming. In any content where spirits aren't useable, it falls completely flat. It needs a serious design overhaul, or at least refinement and changes to several of the glyphs and traits. And core ranger needs support utilities other than spirits that brings some synergy between the core class and druid. Several traits in Nature Magic has room for reworks to make that happen. Sadly, none of that will happen because people still still call it "busted" in pve and that's where Anet leaves it at.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 1, 2020

    @Asum.4960 said:
    No matter what you do on Necro you will always be a form of tanky and immobile with some corrupts and mediocre to bad damage and heavily relying on it's Profession mechanic to do anything, which just doesn't work well for organised/endgame PvE as it' always been, is, and most likely will be.

    While I do agree on everything else, I do think that not much is needed to make the "tank" role "viable" through an e-spec (the necromancer basicaly just need a trait or skill that transfert incoming CCs from him to a minion).
    I know it's a nerf but moving the boon ripping effect of the mesmer's sword AA to Illusionary leap and swap would help a lot in making boon hate on other professions less useless.
    Making boon corruption proc a bleed when corrupting a defiant foe without boons is a pretty easy fix as well that would ease in fixing the "mediocre" dps of the necromancer (it also open the door for boon hate to have an effect on defiance and thus have the effects related proc naturally).
    Replacing the boss arena damage from raw power damage every 2 seconds by an 8-10 seconds bleed stack every 10 seconds shouldn't be challenging to do either. And it would both promote condition manipulation/cleansing and increase the necromancer's dps. (You'd easily have some raid comp that would be designed around the idea for more efficiency)

    I mean, I'm not a genius yet this kind of solutions come easily to my mind, I don't get what prevent ANet from doing these simple things instead of playing their eternal numbers waltz with the necromancer's skills and traits.

  • Kodama.6453Kodama.6453 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lazze.9870 said:

    @Nimon.7840 said:
    The problem with some of the support specs: they are completely busted op.
    Druid can heal and provide important boons and unique buffs to the group (spirits, spotter)
    Firebrand can heal, and provide it's subgroup with quickness and aegis + stability. Which lets you ignore a lot of mechanics.
    Renegade (healer) has insane healing output, and can do perma 10 man alacrity

    That's the three busted healers.

    Spirits and spotter are core ranger utitlities. That's not the fault of druid.

    Druid brings might and some healing. Nothing else. There is a reason this elite spec is pure garbage compared to other support options in PvP and WvW (with one exception; using it as an immobilizer in a wvw zerg, aka an utility spot). And the elite spec is stuck being garbage in every other game mode just because the combination of core ranger utilities and the might + healing from the druid elite spec has given it a role in the raiding meta from day 1. Even now, when it has fallen out of favor in fractal metas and easily can be replaced in raids too, people complain about it because it is a solid choice for raiding and the default go-to for a lot of pug groups.

    Druid isn't busted. Not even close. It's carried by core ranger. Firebrand on the other hand has meta builds in pve, pvp and wvw. THAT is busted. Scrapper is the meta cleanser and healer in wvw, and tempest are solid support in both pvp and wvw. There is variety. A lot of it. If you stick your head outside of pve once in a while.

    Druid is the least busted support spec in the entire game. It's underwhelming. In any content where spirits aren't useable, it falls completely flat. It needs a serious design overhaul, or at least refinement and changes to several of the glyphs and traits. And core ranger needs support utilities other than spirits that brings some synergy between the core class and druid. Several traits in Nature Magic has room for reworks to make that happen. Sadly, none of that will happen because people still still call it "busted" in pve and that's where Anet leaves it at.

    Druid is not busted, but OP is pointing out something that is a problem, in my opinion.

    Druid is the defining support in raids and such because of the unique buffs core ranger provides: spotter, frost spirit, etc.
    It would be great if every class would have some unique buffs which are powerful enough to make them compete for a healer slot in raids.

    For example, engineer is quite good at healing with the current scrapper healer build. However, everyone will tell you that it is not recommended to take a scrapper as a healer. Why? Because engineer as a class lacks unique buffs to increase the dps of their team, unlike druid.

    Engineer has exactly 1 unique buff it can share, pinpoint distribution. But it is located in firearms, which engineer can't take for their healer build since it literally provides nothing except that one condition damage buff. And even in situations in which your team has alot of condition damage, it wouldn't be worth it, since other classes can provide more additional condition damage for their team than engineer. Firebrand and druid once again come in mind. Oh and then is also the fact that unlike other healer specs, engineer deals absolutely no damage whatsoever while healing, since you have to camp med kit.

    More classes need powerful unique buffs so you can actually run them as healers without putting your team at a huge disadvantage. Some classes are still in need of their support elite spec (warrior, thief, engineer), so this is something that Anet should keep in mind if they are designing support specs for them. They need unique buffs which are actually desired in high end PvE.

  • LadyKitty.6120LadyKitty.6120 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 1, 2020

    Boost druid's PVE heals, turn Frost Spirit to apply freeze and might on hit (as thematical opposite of Sun Spirit) while it still has might available thru Nature's Vengeance and druid is finally a rather equivalent option compared to others. (Spotter isn't mandatory even for many power builds.)
    Make Engi's turrets pulse 10-target boons with Improvised Turrets-trait (Kitty's been asking for this one for over 2 years now) and return quickness to Toss Elixir U (engi used to provide 60% quickness uptime for 5 with it), maybe also add the 5-target quickness to Kinetic Battery in Tools (to make it a choice of full might for 5 or 90% quickness for 5 as scrapper while core engi can get both while losing Function Gyro. Choicessss...).
    Give necromancer some partial group fury source (now it's literally the only class that can't provide fury for allies), you can name it "Fury of the Dead" or something.
    Make warrior's Mending Might also heal allies receiving the might by 69 + 0.04*healpower per stack they receive (so warr gets heals from all shared might stacks with reduced co-efficient while allies get heals with increased co-efficient thru received stacks).
    Give thief a quickness source through Leeching Venoms (replace siphon with 1s of quickness per stack used for everyone who hits enemy with venom) and Shadow Siphoning (Stealth attacks provide 2 seconds of quickness for 5, 3s cooldown).

    Those changes should make all healers more or less equal. Providing quickness would still require quite a snackrifice and even thief can't quickness, might+fury and dps/heal properly at same time, always a choice (while FB is still capable of that and more, hmm hmm).

    E: And in case people wonder how mesmer brings fury and might for allies now, keyword: staff ambush. If you rotate properly, full might and fury for 10 with Aristocracy runes while doing 70% of dps mirage's normal dps by using staff/axe+pistol swapping weapon off-CD and spamming ambushes in staff with 3 clones.

    It's Kitty. The young lady who streams and records videos playing various (non-)metabuilds. Raid/fractal videos at youtube.com/LadyKitty, Kittymarks test results at youtube.com/Kittymarks and tinyurl.com/Kittymarks.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 1, 2020

    @Lazze.9870 said:

    @Nimon.7840 said:
    The problem with some of the support specs: they are completely busted op.
    Druid can heal and provide important boons and unique buffs to the group (spirits, spotter)
    Firebrand can heal, and provide it's subgroup with quickness and aegis + stability. Which lets you ignore a lot of mechanics.
    Renegade (healer) has insane healing output, and can do perma 10 man alacrity

    That's the three busted healers.

    Spirits and spotter are core ranger utitlities. That's not the fault of druid.

    Druid brings might and some healing. Nothing else. There is a reason this elite spec is pure garbage compared to other support options in PvP and WvW (with one exception; using it as an immobilizer in a wvw zerg, aka an utility spot). And the elite spec is stuck being garbage in every other game mode just because the combination of core ranger utilities and the might + healing from the druid elite spec has given it a role in the raiding meta from day 1. Even now, when it has fallen out of favor in fractal metas and easily can be replaced in raids too, people complain about it because it is a solid choice for raiding and the default go-to for a lot of pug groups.

    Druid isn't busted. Not even close. It's carried by core ranger. Firebrand on the other hand has meta builds in pve, pvp and wvw. THAT is busted. Scrapper is the meta cleanser and healer in wvw, and tempest are solid support in both pvp and wvw. There is variety. A lot of it. If you stick your head outside of pve once in a while.

    Druid is the least busted support spec in the entire game. It's underwhelming. In any content where spirits aren't useable, it falls completely flat. It needs a serious design overhaul, or at least refinement and changes to several of the glyphs and traits. And core ranger needs support utilities other than spirits that brings some synergy between the core class and druid. Several traits in Nature Magic has room for reworks to make that happen. Sadly, none of that will happen because people still still call it "busted" in pve and that's where Anet leaves it at.

    I personally don't consider one spec being viable in all gamemodes as busted, that should imo be the case/desirable for pretty much all specs.
    While I get where you are coming from with looking at it from a cross gamemode PoV, I do think it's problematic when for 5+ years pretty much exclusively only a single spec is used for a specific role in an entire gamemode, namely Raids.
    While I do play all gamemodes and there is some variety between them, the discussion at hand is about PvE engame and for example Tempest being borderline broken in PvP as hard carrying support doesn't really help to bring variety to the Raid experience, so it's not really relevant for anyone finding groups/compositions stale in that mode.

    Druid brings might and some healing. Nothing else

    Plus this is a slight understating of the value of one player being able to cover 10 man Might. The Spirits, Spotter, Pushes, Immob/control, group res etc. are all just gravy on top of that which further beats every alternative out, but even without that, save for maybe Boon Tempest if that's still a thing, you would still need two supports or at least hybrids to replace that one thing on Druid, which with 10 available slots total in a Squad is a big difference.

    Additionally Druid did and to a some extend still has a presence in PvP as well. If I recall correctly it was actually quite oppressive at times and had to be brought down there. Just to say it's not always just been the Raid Healer, but even if that were the case, I'd much rather see it get more viability in other gamemodes (and staying a viable choice for Raids too) than being the almost exclusive choice for one.

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    No matter what you do on Necro you will always be a form of tanky and immobile with some corrupts and mediocre to bad damage and heavily relying on it's Profession mechanic to do anything, which just doesn't work well for organised/endgame PvE as it' always been, is, and most likely will be.

    While I do agree on everything else, I do think that not much is needed to make the "tank" role "viable" through an e-spec (the necromancer basicaly just need a trait or skill that transfert incoming CCs from him to a minion).
    I know it's a nerf but moving the boon ripping effect of the mesmer's sword AA to Illusionary leap and swap would help a lot in making boon hate on other professions less useless.
    Making boon corruption proc a bleed when corrupting a defiant foe without boons is a pretty easy fix as well that would ease in fixing the "mediocre" dps of the necromancer (it also open the door for boon hate to have an effect on defiance and thus have the effects related proc naturally).
    Replacing the boss arena damage from raw power damage every 2 seconds by an 8-10 seconds bleed stack every 10 seconds shouldn't be challenging to do either. And it would both promote condition manipulation/cleansing and increase the necromancer's dps. (You'd easily have some raid comp that would be designed around the idea for more efficiency)

    I mean, I'm not a genius yet this kind of solutions come easily to my mind, I don't get what prevent ANet from doing these simple things instead of playing their eternal numbers waltz with the necromancer's skills and traits.

    I don't consider Tank an archetype in GW2, as it's more a consolidated secondary role, usually also done by a major role/archetype of the Boon Support (Chrono mainly, or FB), or increasingly also the main Heal, aka Druid.
    And Necro can already tank, quite well on bosses like Soulless Horror actually, but aside form that there are usually better options for it.

    Pulsing conditions on players definitely would help a lot to make supports like Scourge and Scrapper more desirable, and there are many content adjustments one can fairly quickly come up with (pulsing boons on a wide variety of enemies, etc.) that would certainly bring some more variety to the game and make Necromancer especially more at home in PvE, but it's been 8 years now that I and many others have suggested such things.

    I do think though that Necro has plenty of bad Traits which could be redesigned to make some "PvP Tools" more viable in PvE, without having to redesign the whole of PvE content (even though they would be minor and easy to do changes), namely things like what you suggested, for example Insidious Disruption, currently a fairly dead Trait in all gamemodes as it can't compete with both the higher damage and Utility of Plague Sending in all gamemodes, could also trigger on Corrupt usage on top of disables (and possibly be buffed to 2 stacks in PvE).

    Suddenly another Weapon in form of off hand Dagger to transfer BiP is viable together with Torch (as Plague Sending has to be given up) and corrupts now serve as a DPS increase in PvE like they pretty much do in PvP, making Scourge slightly more competitive as cDPS.
    That would ofc also mean that Garish Pillar would be used as part of the rotation for the CC to trigger Insidious Disruption as well, which would lead to much tighter LF management and a harder rotation and not leave much room to use Nefarious Favor and Sand Cascade, reducing the Condi Cleanses and Barrier a DPS Scourge provides as trade off for the higher DPS.

    As you say, it doesn't take a genius.

    It's just a bunch of little changes like that they would have to trickle in, rather than for some reason throwing a whole Toughness mechanic at us in a Death Magic "rework".

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Lazze.9870 said:

    @Nimon.7840 said:
    The problem with some of the support specs: they are completely busted op.
    Druid can heal and provide important boons and unique buffs to the group (spirits, spotter)
    Firebrand can heal, and provide it's subgroup with quickness and aegis + stability. Which lets you ignore a lot of mechanics.
    Renegade (healer) has insane healing output, and can do perma 10 man alacrity

    That's the three busted healers.

    Spirits and spotter are core ranger utitlities. That's not the fault of druid.

    Druid brings might and some healing. Nothing else. There is a reason this elite spec is pure garbage compared to other support options in PvP and WvW (with one exception; using it as an immobilizer in a wvw zerg, aka an utility spot). And the elite spec is stuck being garbage in every other game mode just because the combination of core ranger utilities and the might + healing from the druid elite spec has given it a role in the raiding meta from day 1. Even now, when it has fallen out of favor in fractal metas and easily can be replaced in raids too, people complain about it because it is a solid choice for raiding and the default go-to for a lot of pug groups.

    Druid isn't busted. Not even close. It's carried by core ranger. Firebrand on the other hand has meta builds in pve, pvp and wvw. THAT is busted. Scrapper is the meta cleanser and healer in wvw, and tempest are solid support in both pvp and wvw. There is variety. A lot of it. If you stick your head outside of pve once in a while.

    Druid is the least busted support spec in the entire game. It's underwhelming. In any content where spirits aren't useable, it falls completely flat. It needs a serious design overhaul, or at least refinement and changes to several of the glyphs and traits. And core ranger needs support utilities other than spirits that brings some synergy between the core class and druid. Several traits in Nature Magic has room for reworks to make that happen. Sadly, none of that will happen because people still still call it "busted" in pve and that's where Anet leaves it at.

    I personally don't consider one spec being viable in all gamemodes as busted, that should imo be the case/desirable for pretty much all specs.
    While I get where you are coming from with looking at it from a cross gamemode PoV, I do think it's problematic when for 5+ years pretty much exclusively only a single spec is used for a specific role in an entire gamemode, namely Raids.
    While I do play all gamemodes and there is some variety between them, the discussion at hand is about PvE engame and for example Tempest being borderline broken in PvP as hard carrying support doesn't really help to bring variety to the Raid experience, so it's not really relevant for anyone finding groups/compositions stale in that mode.

    I don't know. Guard is definetly the strongest class in the game right now.

    Endgame pve:

    • coreguard is playable at some raidbosses but not that good
    • dragonhunter still meta on a lot of bosses
    • firebrand meta or very good on a lot of bosses, as either condo, condi quickness, or healer can be played (mostly fractals)

    PvP (I don't play that gamemode, so I can only repeat, what someone said that plays spvp)

    • coreguard playable as support and damage dealer
    • dragonhunter very good in middle tier
    • firebrand extremely good

    Wvw:

    • coreguard playable as condi or power in zergs (one of best damage dealers) and playable as power for roaming
    • dragonhunter: good as condo for zergs, very good power and condi roamer
    • firebrand: the only reliant source for stability in wvw, therefore mandatory in every single group of a zerg and can also be played as roamer

    Shall we compare that to other classes?
    I take necro as I know that class the best and thief:

    Pve:

    • core: both classes have no good build here, maybe thief as a boo support, but can't be played on all raidbosses
    • hot-espec: necro - still the lowest benchmark of all full dps classes, not really so good in good groups and also very bad on a lot of encounters. Thief - playable as boonsupport and good as damage dealer on some bosses
    • pof-espec: necro - worst of all dps builds, only exists because of epidemic. Thief - rifle build is playable at some encounters

    PvP:

    • core: necro has a meta build. Didn't hear about thief.
    • hot-espec: necro is playable but needs support. From watching streams of very good players, thief seems to be extremly strong, basically 2 thieves every match (one on each team)
    • pof-espec: both not good

    Wvw:

    • core: necro - only playable as roamer.
    • hot-espec: necro - good roamer but has a lot of easy to abuse weaknesses and good damage dealer for zergs if they go melee
    • pof-espec: still the most played necro spec. Still very good as damage dealer/corrupts but the things scourge does, other classes can do it better: short fights corrupts/strips best stripper is spellbreakers, longer fights, best stripper is chrono. Damage wise, scourge gets outshined by basically every other existing damage build. Has a little bit of support in forms of barrier and condi remove. All points together make it a good to play spec, but it's not playable as support.
    • thief is the king of roaming. Most seen spec is Daredevil, but core and deadeye are both very strong. Downside is, the class is not good in zergs. And not so good in guildgroups, but still playable as Daredevil.

    So you see, guard has a lot more very good builds with a lot more build diversity (specs can be played as different roles)

    So we can either say, all classes aren't where they should be, or just: guard is too strong/overpowered

    Druid brings might and some healing. Nothing else

    Plus this is a slight understating of the value of one player being able to cover 10 man Might. The Spirits, Spotter, Pushes, Immob/control, group res etc. are all just gravy on top of that which further beats every alternative out, but even without that, save for maybe Boon Tempest if that's still a thing, you would still need two supports or at least hybrids to replace that one thing on Druid, which with 10 available slots total in a Squad is a big difference.

    Additionally Druid did and to a some extend still has a presence in PvP as well. If I recall correctly it was actually quite oppressive at times and had to be brought down there. Just to say it's not always just been the Raid Healer, but even if that were the case, I'd much rather see it get more viability in other gamemodes (and staying a viable choice for Raids too) than being the almost exclusive choice for one.

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    No matter what you do on Necro you will always be a form of tanky and immobile with some corrupts and mediocre to bad damage and heavily relying on it's Profession mechanic to do anything, which just doesn't work well for organised/endgame PvE as it' always been, is, and most likely will be.

    While I do agree on everything else, I do think that not much is needed to make the "tank" role "viable" through an e-spec (the necromancer basicaly just need a trait or skill that transfert incoming CCs from him to a minion).
    I know it's a nerf but moving the boon ripping effect of the mesmer's sword AA to Illusionary leap and swap would help a lot in making boon hate on other professions less useless.
    Making boon corruption proc a bleed when corrupting a defiant foe without boons is a pretty easy fix as well that would ease in fixing the "mediocre" dps of the necromancer (it also open the door for boon hate to have an effect on defiance and thus have the effects related proc naturally).
    Replacing the boss arena damage from raw power damage every 2 seconds by an 8-10 seconds bleed stack every 10 seconds shouldn't be challenging to do either. And it would both promote condition manipulation/cleansing and increase the necromancer's dps. (You'd easily have some raid comp that would be designed around the idea for more efficiency)

    I mean, I'm not a genius yet this kind of solutions come easily to my mind, I don't get what prevent ANet from doing these simple things instead of playing their eternal numbers waltz with the necromancer's skills and traits.

    I don't consider Tank an archetype in GW2, as it's more a consolidated secondary role, usually also done by a major role/archetype of the Boon Support (Chrono mainly, or FB), or increasingly also the main Heal, aka Druid.
    And Necro can already tank, quite well on bosses like Soulless Horror actually, but aside form that there are usually better options for it.

    Pulsing conditions on players definitely would help a lot to make supports like Scourge and Scrapper more desirable, and there are many content adjustments one can fairly quickly come up with (pulsing boons on a wide variety of enemies, etc.) that would certainly bring some more variety to the game and make Necromancer especially more at home in PvE, but it's been 8 years now that I and many others have suggested such things.

    I do think though that Necro has plenty of bad Traits which could be redesigned to make some "PvP Tools" more viable in PvE, without having to redesign the whole of PvE content (even though they would be minor and easy to do changes), namely things like what you suggested, for example Insidious Disruption, currently a fairly dead Trait in all gamemodes as it can't compete with both the higher damage and Utility of Plague Sending in all gamemodes, could also trigger on Corrupt usage on top of disables (and possibly be buffed to 2 stacks in PvE).

    Suddenly another Weapon in form of off hand Dagger to transfer BiP is viable together with Torch (as Plague Sending has to be given up) and corrupts now serve as a DPS increase in PvE like they pretty much do in PvP, making Scourge slightly more competitive as cDPS.
    That would ofc also mean that Garish Pillar would be used as part of the rotation for the CC to trigger Insidious Disruption as well, which would lead to much tighter LF management and a harder rotation and not leave much room to use Nefarious Favor and Sand Cascade, reducing the Condi Cleanses and Barrier a DPS Scourge provides as trade off for the higher DPS.

    As you say, it doesn't take a genius.

    It's just a bunch of little changes like that they would have to trickle in, rather than for some reason throwing a whole Toughness mechanic at us in a Death Magic "rework".

  • @Asum.4960 said:

    @Lazze.9870 said:

    @Nimon.7840 said:
    The problem with some of the support specs: they are completely busted op.
    Druid can heal and provide important boons and unique buffs to the group (spirits, spotter)
    Firebrand can heal, and provide it's subgroup with quickness and aegis + stability. Which lets you ignore a lot of mechanics.
    Renegade (healer) has insane healing output, and can do perma 10 man alacrity

    That's the three busted healers.

    Spirits and spotter are core ranger utitlities. That's not the fault of druid.

    Druid brings might and some healing. Nothing else. There is a reason this elite spec is pure garbage compared to other support options in PvP and WvW (with one exception; using it as an immobilizer in a wvw zerg, aka an utility spot). And the elite spec is stuck being garbage in every other game mode just because the combination of core ranger utilities and the might + healing from the druid elite spec has given it a role in the raiding meta from day 1. Even now, when it has fallen out of favor in fractal metas and easily can be replaced in raids too, people complain about it because it is a solid choice for raiding and the default go-to for a lot of pug groups.

    Druid isn't busted. Not even close. It's carried by core ranger. Firebrand on the other hand has meta builds in pve, pvp and wvw. THAT is busted. Scrapper is the meta cleanser and healer in wvw, and tempest are solid support in both pvp and wvw. There is variety. A lot of it. If you stick your head outside of pve once in a while.

    Druid is the least busted support spec in the entire game. It's underwhelming. In any content where spirits aren't useable, it falls completely flat. It needs a serious design overhaul, or at least refinement and changes to several of the glyphs and traits. And core ranger needs support utilities other than spirits that brings some synergy between the core class and druid. Several traits in Nature Magic has room for reworks to make that happen. Sadly, none of that will happen because people still still call it "busted" in pve and that's where Anet leaves it at.

    I personally don't consider one spec being viable in all gamemodes as busted, that should imo be the case/desirable for pretty much all specs.
    While I get where you are coming from with looking at it from a cross gamemode PoV, I do think it's problematic when for 5+ years pretty much exclusively only a single spec is used for a specific role in an entire gamemode, namely Raids.
    While I do play all gamemodes and there is some variety between them, the discussion at hand is about PvE engame and for example Tempest being borderline broken in PvP as hard carrying support doesn't really help to bring variety to the Raid experience, so it's not really relevant for anyone finding groups/compositions stale in that mode.

    Druid brings might and some healing. Nothing else

    Plus this is a slight understating of the value of one player being able to cover 10 man Might. The Spirits, Spotter, Pushes, Immob/control, group res etc. are all just gravy on top of that which further beats every alternative out, but even without that, save for maybe Boon Tempest if that's still a thing, you would still need two supports or at least hybrids to replace that one thing on Druid, which with 10 available slots total in a Squad is a big difference.

    Additionally Druid did and to a some extend still has a presence in PvP as well. If I recall correctly it was actually quite oppressive at times and had to be brought down there. Just to say it's not always just been the Raid Healer, but even if that were the case, I'd much rather see it get more viability in other gamemodes (and staying a viable choice for Raids too) than being the almost exclusive choice for one.

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    No matter what you do on Necro you will always be a form of tanky and immobile with some corrupts and mediocre to bad damage and heavily relying on it's Profession mechanic to do anything, which just doesn't work well for organised/endgame PvE as it' always been, is, and most likely will be.

    While I do agree on everything else, I do think that not much is needed to make the "tank" role "viable" through an e-spec (the necromancer basicaly just need a trait or skill that transfert incoming CCs from him to a minion).
    I know it's a nerf but moving the boon ripping effect of the mesmer's sword AA to Illusionary leap and swap would help a lot in making boon hate on other professions less useless.
    Making boon corruption proc a bleed when corrupting a defiant foe without boons is a pretty easy fix as well that would ease in fixing the "mediocre" dps of the necromancer (it also open the door for boon hate to have an effect on defiance and thus have the effects related proc naturally).
    Replacing the boss arena damage from raw power damage every 2 seconds by an 8-10 seconds bleed stack every 10 seconds shouldn't be challenging to do either. And it would both promote condition manipulation/cleansing and increase the necromancer's dps. (You'd easily have some raid comp that would be designed around the idea for more efficiency)

    I mean, I'm not a genius yet this kind of solutions come easily to my mind, I don't get what prevent ANet from doing these simple things instead of playing their eternal numbers waltz with the necromancer's skills and traits.

    I don't consider Tank an archetype in GW2, as it's more a consolidated secondary role, usually also done by a major role/archetype of the Boon Support (Chrono mainly, or FB), or increasingly also the main Heal, aka Druid.
    And Necro can already tank, quite well on bosses like Soulless Horror actually, but aside form that there are usually better options for it.

    Pulsing conditions on players definitely would help a lot to make supports like Scourge and Scrapper more desirable, and there are many content adjustments one can fairly quickly come up with (pulsing boons on a wide variety of enemies, etc.) that would certainly bring some more variety to the game and make Necromancer especially more at home in PvE, but it's been 8 years now that I and many others have suggested such things.

    I do think though that Necro has plenty of bad Traits which could be redesigned to make some "PvP Tools" more viable in PvE, without having to redesign the whole of PvE content (even though they would be minor and easy to do changes), namely things like what you suggested, for example Insidious Disruption, currently a fairly dead Trait in all gamemodes as it can't compete with both the higher damage and Utility of Plague Sending in all gamemodes, could also trigger on Corrupt usage on top of disables (and possibly be buffed to 2 stacks in PvE).

    Suddenly another Weapon in form of off hand Dagger to transfer BiP is viable together with Torch (as Plague Sending has to be given up) and corrupts now serve as a DPS increase in PvE like they pretty much do in PvP, making Scourge slightly more competitive as cDPS.
    That would ofc also mean that Garish Pillar would be used as part of the rotation for the CC to trigger Insidious Disruption as well, which would lead to much tighter LF management and a harder rotation and not leave much room to use Nefarious Favor and Sand Cascade, reducing the Condi Cleanses and Barrier a DPS Scourge provides as trade off for the higher DPS.

    As you say, it doesn't take a genius.

    It's just a bunch of little changes like that they would have to trickle in, rather than for some reason throwing a whole Toughness mechanic at us in a Death Magic "rework".

    Druid is only usefull in raids tho, hfb can be used in all modes. But druid is limited

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I don't see how breadth of viability is an issue or OP though, ideally every Profession should be viable in as many avenues of the game as possible.
    Not really the same to me as something being pretty much exclusively viable in a mode, such as Druid as solo/main heal in Raids/10 man instanced PvE.

    I don't feel the game would benefit from for example Guardian being less viable in more gamemodes, but I do think the game would benefit from more variability in terms of main/solo Raid healers.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The premise is wrong here. Wishing for better balance for support classes doesn't fix anything ... wishing for content that has more need for and wider breadth of support ... THAT'S the wish.

    If you're on a highway and roadrunner goes "beep beep"
    Just step aside or you might end up in a heap

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I mean... same with tanking. The only REAL tank with the tools to tank and not be a detriment to the party is Chrono~ Kind of sucks honestly. So I feel your pain. (I really hate how druid is designed in this game, needs a re-do in my opinion)

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    I mean... same with tanking. The only REAL tank with the tools to tank and not be a detriment to the party is Chrono~ Kind of sucks honestly. So I feel your pain. (I really hate how druid is designed in this game, needs a re-do in my opinion)

    Objectively, druid have the tools to tank but not in PvE, which is probably what you find frustrating. It got focus on crowd control and glyphs with ideal tools for a tank. What's unfortunate is that PvE end game just disregard those tools and focus.

    It's the problem of the game, PvE and it's defiance are terribly unfit for a lot of the characters tools. Defiance almost nullify half of the debilitating conditions in game making them useless, the end game content have been designed to prevent player from exploiting stealth/projectile block/projectile reflect, retaliating effects (retaliation/glyph of unity/auras) are reindered useless by the usual slow but hard hitting mob/boss design (when players basically strive on stacking attack speed and multiple source of damage that make such mechanisms deadly for them), boon hate is a terrible fit in encounters that oppose a single big foe that don't need boons to 10 players, the way PvE encounters make use of conditions is even worse than conditions in PvP/WvW... etc.

    How can any other profession tank better than a chronomancer when the chronomancer have boon ripping on it's auto attack (getting rid of any boon that could pop) and good offensive/defensive support unhindered by PvE mechanisms, all while keeping hit nullifying skills on it's weaponset? No other profession have that much. I mean some rely on blind to nullify hits but that's worthless in PvE...

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    I mean... same with tanking. The only REAL tank with the tools to tank and not be a detriment to the party is Chrono~ Kind of sucks honestly. So I feel your pain. (I really hate how druid is designed in this game, needs a re-do in my opinion)

    Objectively, druid have the tools to tank but not in PvE, which is probably what you find frustrating. It got focus on crowd control and glyphs with ideal tools for a tank. What's unfortunate is that PvE end game just disregard those tools and focus.

    It's the problem of the game, PvE and it's defiance are terribly unfit for a lot of the characters tools. Defiance almost nullify half of the debilitating conditions in game making them useless, the end game content have been designed to prevent player from exploiting stealth/projectile block/projectile reflect, retaliating effects (retaliation/glyph of unity/auras) are reindered useless by the usual slow but hard hitting mob/boss design (when players basically strive on stacking attack speed and multiple source of damage that make such mechanisms deadly for them), boon hate is a terrible fit in encounters that oppose a single big foe that don't need boons to 10 players, the way PvE encounters make use of conditions is even worse than conditions in PvP/WvW... etc.

    How can any other profession tank better than a chronomancer when the chronomancer have boon ripping on it's auto attack (getting rid of any boon that could pop) and good offensive/defensive support unhindered by PvE mechanisms, all while keeping hit nullifying skills on it's weaponset? No other profession have that much. I mean some rely on blind to nullify hits but that's worthless in PvE...

    Its one of the reasons I loathe guild wars 2 PvE when it comes to end-game, it literally feels like im playing a linear story-based game with luke-warm narratives but being forced to play it with a bunch of other people so its not really a single player game. I honestly stopped raiding in HoT and likely never will raid again for example, and after the cold war grind for my bear armor unless they add more armors that are norn stuff behind it (or something I like) I likely wont do those either. Even though I want the bone-skinner ascended weps I just cant be bothered as the content is boring~

    I quit mythic raiding in WoW because of the cesspit that was the community, here its the content that drives me off. Im a WvW player really... and even there most of the mechanics of the game are either wasted or not applicable. To me that is a sign of bad game design...

  • Laila Lightness.8742Laila Lightness.8742 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 7, 2020

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    I mean... same with tanking. The only REAL tank with the tools to tank and not be a detriment to the party is Chrono~ Kind of sucks honestly. So I feel your pain. (I really hate how druid is designed in this game, needs a re-do in my opinion)

    Objectively, druid have the tools to tank but not in PvE, which is probably what you find frustrating. It got focus on crowd control and glyphs with ideal tools for a tank. What's unfortunate is that PvE end game just disregard those tools and focus.

    It's the problem of the game, PvE and it's defiance are terribly unfit for a lot of the characters tools. Defiance almost nullify half of the debilitating conditions in game making them useless, the end game content have been designed to prevent player from exploiting stealth/projectile block/projectile reflect, retaliating effects (retaliation/glyph of unity/auras) are reindered useless by the usual slow but hard hitting mob/boss design (when players basically strive on stacking attack speed and multiple source of damage that make such mechanisms deadly for them), boon hate is a terrible fit in encounters that oppose a single big foe that don't need boons to 10 players, the way PvE encounters make use of conditions is even worse than conditions in PvP/WvW... etc.

    How can any other profession tank better than a chronomancer when the chronomancer have boon ripping on it's auto attack (getting rid of any boon that could pop) and good offensive/defensive support unhindered by PvE mechanisms, all while keeping hit nullifying skills on it's weaponset? No other profession have that much. I mean some rely on blind to nullify hits but that's worthless in PvE...

    I dislike the defiance bar it was better before it came and made open world feel like you had to use skills you dont like or want to. Solution is to remove mesmer boon rip tone down evades and change soi to only affect chrono

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:
    I dislike the defiance bar it was better before it came and made open world feel like you had to use skills you dont like or want to.

    Nope it wasn't. Most of what the defiance bar is doing was already there before, it's just that you had a number of "stability" stack to remove to manage a CC instead of the window of breakbar you have now. It was a very poor mechanism, even poorer than the current mechanism.

    Solution is to remove mesmer boon rip tone down evades and change soi to only affect chrono

    Just moving the boon rip from the AA to the 3rd skill would open thing up. Ripping the mesmer from anything else would be pointless and would just meaninglessly hurt the profession's viability.

    However, as I said somewhere else on the forum, to fix PvE in order for the boon hate role to be viable there you just need to make Boon hate proc a "reaction" when it hit a defiant foe. (in such a way that traits and skills effects related procs even if there is no boon removed. For boon corruption they can just let it proc a mere bleed stack, making defiance being considered as a stack of vigor).

    Doing just this single changes would improve considerably the way boon hate based specializations are seen in PvE. There would no longer be any competition between teammates for scarce boons to rip or corrupt, spellbreaker would build it's Attacker's insight without hindrance, the necromancer could probably squeeze out a bit of extra condition damage and scourge would be able to finally make full use of it's punishments in PvE. They could even make it give a boon to the thief when he steal on a defiant foe with Bountiful theft (10 seconds of regeneration for example, this would help the support thief a lot).