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Intra-Class Balance Dynamic - My Perspectives - Things I'd Like To See Happen - 8/29/2020

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  • @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    Currently in spvp "all modes" I see 3x main problems concerning the intra-class balance & dynamic that are seriously dragging down the fun factor of the game. The first problem is concerning how conditions are currently working in a condi heavy meta. The second is how too much passive CC is making the game feel like being stuck in a traffic jam. The third is that support classes have seriously been buffed way too much.

    Conditions:

    1. Condition play is too strong and too bursty right now. Since year 1 we've all seen how condition dominant metas always bring in the laziest, spammiest, sloppiest, and most RNG type of play, which players generally have less fun with for several reasons. Most of the condi based attacks in the game are AoE in nature or activated through traits & utilities that create these primer abilities that cause condi damage to happen through any attack the user wants, including auto 1 spam. The real problem here is that the telegraphs for these AoE abilities and primed traits & utilities, have little to no telegraphs at all.
    2. All of the attack animations in the game are tied to power side damage. With power side damage, there is always a clear wind up animation and strike animation, regardless of the speed of the attack. However with condi based attacks or condi effects tied onto power based weapon attacks, they have slight tiny animations that don't even occur until after the skill is used or in some cases no animation at all. Without going into too much detail, I'll give a simple example to think about: Situation (A) - You enter a 3v3 at mid against a Holo, a Spellbreaker, and a Reaper. In this situation it is possible to counter play the telegraphs well enough that you can avoid most of the damage or maybe all of it. But in Situation (B) - You enter a 3v3 at mid against a Core Burn Guard, a Scourge, and an Ele. In this situation there is so much no animation no warning pulsing condi AoE, that you will get hit and you will take a lot of damage. I'm not saying that anything is OP or UP here. I am saying that this is the difference between when the game's dynamic feels good, and when it feels bad.
    3. With power dominant metas, we've seen over the years that this is when the difference in player skill levels really shines. Good players can see telegraphs and outplay a class/build that normally should be beating it. But in condi dominant metas, the gap in player effectiveness between a strong player and a weak player begins to shorten. This is because condi dominant metas force a type of playstyle that is less about watching telegraphs & outplaying, and more about just running whatever statistically has the strongest attributes in the current given patching, because no one can really avoid damage. Sure, being experienced does matter, but it matters a lot less in condi dominant metas.
    4. Condition builds also get out of control more easily than power builds in terms of being OP. This is mainly because of the way condi clear & stun breaks & other effects were implemented into the game. Most stun breaks and condi clears are utility skills and are often the same skill. We are talking skills such as "Shake it off" "Contemplation of purity" "Ranger utilities in conjunction with Wilderness Lore" "Plague Sig/Spectral Walk" "ect ect". So what happens is that while vs. power damage, a player only worries about using these skills for stun breaks. But while vs. condi damage, a player has to use these skills for clears and stun breaks. Condi builds, especially ones that can burst, often make a player have to cycle through their utilities & other abilities twice as quickly as normal. When condi builds are left too strong, they become dominant to the point that there is little to no practical counter play at all for this reason for forcing cool downs out of players too quickly with unavoidable nearly no telegraph AoE damage.
    5. My Suggestion - Due to how conditions were implemented into Guild Wars 2 in conjunction with how clears & stun breaks & other effects were implemented, conditions should only ever be attrition. Under no circumstances should any class/build ever be able to burst with conditions in the same way that a power build can burst. Condition based attacks have a negligent amount of telegraphs and too much AoE spam which makes the game dynamic feel sloppy, less skill based, and in general less fun to play.

    Passive CC:

    1. Before all the passive CC was added, you could be in a 1v1 or team fight and be counter playing all the opponent's active CCs. You had a distinct good satisfying feeling of fluid play dynamic & being free of the hassle of mechanics that stop up and put delay on everything that everyone is doing. After all the passive CC was added, team fights and even 1v1s often feel like being stuck in a traffic jam. Now we have situations where you should be able to deal damage or stomp or revive or just do something, but you can't. Now we have combats that should be ending in 30s to 60s but instead they go on for ridiculously elongated amounts of time in a way that just feels bad man. This is too close of a feel to the old bunker metas, and in my opinion it actually feels worse than the old bunker metas because you're glued to the floor like 50% of the time you're engaged in a combat when too much passive CC is floating about.
    2. We're talking about: "Flashbang" "Shocking Aura Share" and also soft CC skills that passively proc of traits or pulse off pits, spamming soft CCs way too frequently and for way to elongated of amounts of time. When all of these effects start stacking on top of each other, it just turns into a mess of play dynamic that doesn't feel fun. Again, I'm not saying anything is OP or UP. I am saying that it makes the game feel bad to play. Another example to think about: Situation (A) a Spellbreaker and an S/D Thief vs. Power Soulbeast and Power Herald. In situation (A) every single skill used matters, every single CC is active, landing or missing an important CD creates detrimental momentum shifts, everything is high risk high reward, and as such the difference between good players and bad players in the match up is enormous. But most importantly, every single attack used has an actual telegraph that can be seen. There are no random pulsing nearly invisible effects happening at all. But in Situation (B) Tempest & Scourge vs. Tempest & FB, we have a mess on our hands. Players on these classes are rewarded for spamming skills off of CD, they actually don't need to pay that much attention at all to what's happening. There is way too much passive CC going on to where the traffic jam effect is happening. Landing or missing an important CD isn't really very detrimental at all and in fact, there is so much AoE going on here that it's actually hard to miss with a skill. Even if attacks are missed, chances are that the two duos in conjunction with their passive hard & soft CCs, could also support themselves so strongly to such a degree, that neither side would be able to kill the other. There is absolutely nothing risky here for how high the reward is, and every single thing that is happening in this 2v2 is a nearly impossible to see telegraph pulsing pit or aura like effect with little to no animation at all. This kind of dynamic is lame and boring because although the difference between P2 vs. G2 will be very obvious in Spellbreaker & Thief vs. Soulbeast & Herald, the difference between P2 vs. G2 in Tempest & Scourge vs. Tempest & FB will be barely visible at all due to the traffic jam effect.
    3. My Suggestion - Get rid of passive CC completely, at least the hard CCs. This trend needs to stop. Compensate the classes that lose the passive CCs in other ways.

    Supports:

    1. Simply put, things that traditionally played the Support role are too strong right now. In years past it used to work like this: (Team Fighter) Has lots of AoE damage & active CC. Not so strong in 1v1s. Not as mobile as some other builds. Designed in a way that it benefits greatly when being paired with other Team Fighters and especially Supports. (Team Supports) Has lower supportive damage & CC to assist Team Fighters. It's prone to focus if it is alone but is very difficult to kill when being covered by its Team Fight. It greatly benefits Team Fighters who stay around it with frequent heals, buffs, and even debuffs vs. the opponents. Usually amongst the slowest classes/builds. (DPS + Roamer) Sometimes good in some 1v1s but bad in others. Of the highest mobility. Mainly single target strike damage but the damage is very high vs. that single target. Good at escaping, not so good when caught or focused. (Side Node Duelist or Bunker) Excellent in 1v1. Designed to hold a node, sometimes even in 1v2s. Designed to frequently CC opponents off the node. Designed to beat opponents with attrition if they waste enough time in the 1v1 against it. Not nearly as effective in team fights as Team Fighters, Team Supports, or even DPS + Roamers. <- All of this made sense and felt good. Very distinct roles that gave the game a special flavor & feeling with how it was balanced. But somewhere along the lines, anything that was a Support role just started getting buffed to where they were allowed to have the Team Fight damage & CC of Team Fighters, and the self sustain of Side Node Duelists & Bunkers, and even comparable mobility to some DPS + Roamers, all the while maintaining their full original Support capabilities. Now we have Supports that are capable of stacking on top of each other to also be full fledged Team Fighters, who can also wander off alone and be dominant in 1v1s, who are also amongst the most stable Side Noders. Supports are running spvp right now with alpha status.
    2. Yet another example of what I mean: Situation (A) A Tempest & FB vs. Tempest & Scourge are fighting in 2v2 arena. In this situation one team could be P2 and the other G3 and you'll barely be able to see the difference in the outcome of the match of how the skill difference mattered. Situation (B) A D/P Thief and Chrono vs. Tempest & Scourge. In this situation, the D/P Thief and the Chrono will need to be P2 to even be able to realistically threaten the G3 Tempest & Scourge in a 2v2 arena. The level of sustain alone on the G3 Tempest & Scourge duo is enough to deny the P2 Thief & Chrono of any opportunity they have to ever get a downstate, and even if they get a downstate, both supports have instant revive skills. The Thief & Chrono will have a difficult time dealing damage not only due to the large sustain on their opponents, but also because their opponents have a lot more damage output and CC than they should have for being full supports. The G3 Tempest & Scourge can play sloppily, missing most bursts, taking a lot of flat footed damage they don't need to be taking, and heal through all of it. But the Thief & Chrono could greatly mechanically outplay them, flawlessly & perfectly for over two minutes or more, and if either of them messes up just once, they can get caught and put into downstate instantly, with their partner having no way to realistically revive them. Supports are so strong right now, that on a daily basis I am seeing normally G3 players on Supports, bullying their way through and winning against normally P2 players who are on things like Thieves and Warriors and Mesmers. Supports are currently way way too strong.
    3. My Suggestion - The traditional strong Support classes/builds need to lose a sizeable amount of the offensive pressure they have. And instant revive skills all need to be on longer cast times so that there is a more realistic time frame to interrupt those skills.

    There are lots of other things I'd like to go into detail on, like how hack programs & match manipulation needs to be punished. Or how I feel that Ranked mode should be deleted, Ranked rewards shuffled into Unranked, and rating/badge/title rewards shuffled into AT seasons which reset after each MAT. But for now I'll leave this thread as is in hopes that it is heard by someone, anyone, in the Arenanet office.

    ~ Some of us still love this game and we want it to feel good again.

    I hope you're not including Druid in traditional support.

  • wevh.2903wevh.2903 Member ✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @wevh.2903 said:

    @Tayga.3192 said:

    @wevh.2903 said:
    Being meta doesnt mean it is not balanced ,

    Yes I agree, but thief is more than "meta". Look at any competitive team, they have 4 anything and 1 thief in their team.

    mesmer could be with portal

    Yeah the ultimate "nobody uses" skill.

    Ye but thats not bad , thief makes game fluid and counters slowly stuff , i mean ofc it is good af there is no way to negate it but i feel its role totally needed.

    Also thief can co-exist with other roamer specs like power rev/nades holo or including mesmer. With portal i mean the not nerfed portal . This skills made pvp lot more competitive while making mesmer have some value over thief .

    how can a mesmer exist in a game where every team is guarantee to have a hard counter to you? even funny you would put mesmer as a roamer, you know. To contest the thief that hard counters you. As long as thief is overpowered as kitten, and mandatory in every team. Mesmer will not be viable choice unless its equally overpowered as kitten.

    Mesmer was viable with portal roaming together with a thief. Ye both of them on a team comp .

    Mesmer with portal without actual nerf woulf be meta for sure . It allows to do a lot of stuff , conquest is about rotation and portal there is a masterpiece.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @wevh.2903 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @wevh.2903 said:

    @Tayga.3192 said:

    @wevh.2903 said:
    Being meta doesnt mean it is not balanced ,

    Yes I agree, but thief is more than "meta". Look at any competitive team, they have 4 anything and 1 thief in their team.

    mesmer could be with portal

    Yeah the ultimate "nobody uses" skill.

    Ye but thats not bad , thief makes game fluid and counters slowly stuff , i mean ofc it is good af there is no way to negate it but i feel its role totally needed.

    Also thief can co-exist with other roamer specs like power rev/nades holo or including mesmer. With portal i mean the not nerfed portal . This skills made pvp lot more competitive while making mesmer have some value over thief .

    how can a mesmer exist in a game where every team is guarantee to have a hard counter to you? even funny you would put mesmer as a roamer, you know. To contest the thief that hard counters you. As long as thief is overpowered as kitten, and mandatory in every team. Mesmer will not be viable choice unless its equally overpowered as kitten.

    Mesmer was viable with portal roaming together with a thief. Ye both of them on a team comp .

    Mesmer with portal without actual nerf woulf be meta for sure . It allows to do a lot of stuff , conquest is about rotation and portal there is a masterpiece.

    its not a masterpiece when mesmer is so kitten its forced to use portal as a survivability tool every time. Its a win more ability, yes often its fun and you can make cool things but its a win more ability and those in general are unhealthy.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 3, 2020

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @wevh.2903 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @wevh.2903 said:

    @Tayga.3192 said:

    @wevh.2903 said:
    Being meta doesnt mean it is not balanced ,

    Yes I agree, but thief is more than "meta". Look at any competitive team, they have 4 anything and 1 thief in their team.

    mesmer could be with portal

    Yeah the ultimate "nobody uses" skill.

    Ye but thats not bad , thief makes game fluid and counters slowly stuff , i mean ofc it is good af there is no way to negate it but i feel its role totally needed.

    Also thief can co-exist with other roamer specs like power rev/nades holo or including mesmer. With portal i mean the not nerfed portal . This skills made pvp lot more competitive while making mesmer have some value over thief .

    how can a mesmer exist in a game where every team is guarantee to have a hard counter to you? even funny you would put mesmer as a roamer, you know. To contest the thief that hard counters you. As long as thief is overpowered as kitten, and mandatory in every team. Mesmer will not be viable choice unless its equally overpowered as kitten.

    Mesmer was viable with portal roaming together with a thief. Ye both of them on a team comp .

    Mesmer with portal without actual nerf woulf be meta for sure . It allows to do a lot of stuff , conquest is about rotation and portal there is a masterpiece.

    its not a masterpiece when mesmer is so kitten its forced to use portal as a survivability tool every time. Its a win more ability, yes often its fun and you can make cool things but its a win more ability and those in general are unhealthy.

    Remove sb 5 on thief, see how awesome it still is. U go on a out how broken thief is yet if u remove sb5 its basically in same position as mesmer, except mesmers gank outa stealthis 16k not 7k like a booned up power thief's burst. Yeah mesmers get countered by thief but thief has its counters as well, most classes do. Thief is taken every match because its mobility lends greatly to the cap/decap mechanic in conquest, if it was purely combat based thief would drop tiers fast. All mesmer needs is it portal back.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    In testimony to how passive CC has butchered the flow of balance, in conjunction with some other glaring balance issues.

    Right now we are in patching where only 4 classes/builds are considered meta:

    1. Tempest
    2. Reaper
    3. Holosmith
    4. DP Daredevil

    ~ https://metabattle.com/wiki/Conquest

    Why is it happening? Shocking Aura Share and Flashbang are running the direction of the meta and pushing out classes/builds that can't front enough CC & Stability uptime to deal with the chemistry of what's happening while still remaining viable. It's kind of happening like this:

    1. Tempest covers all of the weaknesses that the Reaper has in its defense, and then Reaper covers the Tempest's lack of direct offensive pressure. Then both of their elites Tornado & Lich, also have unusually strong chemistry when used together. It is important to note that these two classes have large amounts of CC, Stability uptime, and Stun Breaks, while still being able to run very powerful build structures. <- This is key to understand where the meta is being driven from. Post ultra nerf patch that removed so much stability & stun breaks from other classes, these two classes have found a very strong position to be able to abuse the new dynamic after the nerf patch, in a new style of "broken" that we've never really seen before. - The Tempest is by far the strongest and only Support Role needed. The Reaper is by far the strongest and only Team Fighter needed.
    2. It all begins with the Tempest & the Reaper combo, but mainly just the Tempest. The Reaper is just the Tempest's ideal right hand man. It's the Shocking Aura Share for the entire team that puts the Tempest and the Tempest alone, in a position where he is driving the current not so diverse meta. What makes the Reaper position #2 is not only because he is the Tempest's best wing man, but also because of his level of access to Stability so that he can get in at the enemy Tempest and actually deal damage without having all of his combo strings being interrupted constantly from enemy Shocking Auras. The Reaper is getting frequent Stab from Shroud 3, plenty of Stab while in Lich, or even extra frequent Stab stacks if he uses Chilled To The Bone. And this isn't to mention the Stun Breaks on his utility bar and all of the CC that his weapon skills and Shroud has, and what the Tempest buffs him with. Again, the level of Stab, CC, Stun break uptime between these two classes is unbelievably high compared to other class configurations. In a nutshell, they make it so you can't move or do anything, while they are able to still move and do things. It's that simple, and the very large bulk of this exploit is due to Shocking Aura Share, which is driving this meta.
    3. Then we have ye good ole' Holosaiyan. He's always the strongest bruiser in the game that has access to the most mechanics, that self sustains fine on his own, and deals a lot of damage while maintaining good mobility. We could argue how OP or if it is OP but that's not really point here. The point to note is that it is able to maintain a top slot in this no diversity meta for 2x reasons. First of all it has Flashbang, another passive CC that is hard and soft CC, and it happens frequently. This new and very powerful over defensive ability is for some reason available on an offensive trait line https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Explosives and it allows the Holosaiyan to passively be super defensive while running a glass cannon berserker amulet full damage grenade build, while it plays 100% aggressively, mechanically. The second reason and probably the bigger reason why it can hang in the remaining 4 metas, is the large amount of Stab access/uptime that it is. This allows it to be able to get in and actually deal damage to a Tempest or those around it, through the instant passive CCs of Shocking Aura. It also allows the Holosaiyan the ability to deal with other Holosaiyan passive CC. - The Holosmith is tweaked SO MUCH as a bruiser, that it can perform 3x job roles equally as well as the other: 1) Team Fighter, 2) DPS + Roamer, 3) Side Node Duelist. This specialization is packing way too much in this patching.
    4. DP Daredevil is the only DPS + Roamer that is needed. Due to how Tempest/Reaper/Holo have pushed certain specific builds/classes out of viability that normally should be able to deal with the DP Daredevil. Due to this effect, right now the DP has no contestation whatsoever in the role of DPS + Roamer. Anyone who would play something that is good at dealing with DP Daredevil, will be getting trashed by the above aforementioned classes when they try to do so. The DP is also strong at +ing against Tempests & Reapers when they are separated, which gives his job a a great deal importance within this patching. Some people may say that Thief is currently OP, but honestly it's just that Tempest/Reaper/Holo is making it look that way. The DP Daredevil doesn't worry so much about the passive CC because it can out rotate anything, especially the above 3 classes/builds.

    So what happened is that the disproportionate nerfing to some classes, concerning removing access & uptime to Stab & Stun Breaks, along with the implementation of entirely passive CC skills, has resulted in a situation where most classes/builds in the game have to sit out and revel in their ineptitude. This is because passive CC play has set a standard where classes/builds are now required to have a certain level of Stab acces & uptime to be able to deal with the passive CC meta. Ironically enough, the very same classes with all of the passive CC are also the classes with high Stab & Stun Break uptime.

    This problem begins and ends with Shocking Aura Share.

    Even though Flashbang is also an entirely broken design, it stands in the shadow of the tall tall problem that is Shocking Aura Share post nerf patch that removed so much Stab access & uptime on so many classes/builds.

    ^ Fix it please. In a game with 9 classes that each have 3 specializations each, surly our meta during a given patching should be a larger list than 4 builds.

  • wevh.2903wevh.2903 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 3, 2020

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @wevh.2903 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @wevh.2903 said:

    @Tayga.3192 said:

    @wevh.2903 said:
    Being meta doesnt mean it is not balanced ,

    Yes I agree, but thief is more than "meta". Look at any competitive team, they have 4 anything and 1 thief in their team.

    mesmer could be with portal

    Yeah the ultimate "nobody uses" skill.

    Ye but thats not bad , thief makes game fluid and counters slowly stuff , i mean ofc it is good af there is no way to negate it but i feel its role totally needed.

    Also thief can co-exist with other roamer specs like power rev/nades holo or including mesmer. With portal i mean the not nerfed portal . This skills made pvp lot more competitive while making mesmer have some value over thief .

    how can a mesmer exist in a game where every team is guarantee to have a hard counter to you? even funny you would put mesmer as a roamer, you know. To contest the thief that hard counters you. As long as thief is overpowered as kitten, and mandatory in every team. Mesmer will not be viable choice unless its equally overpowered as kitten.

    Mesmer was viable with portal roaming together with a thief. Ye both of them on a team comp .

    Mesmer with portal without actual nerf woulf be meta for sure . It allows to do a lot of stuff , conquest is about rotation and portal there is a masterpiece.

    its not a masterpiece when mesmer is so kitten its forced to use portal as a survivability tool every time. Its a win more ability, yes often its fun and you can make cool things but its a win more ability and those in general are unhealthy.

    Portal was proved to be a high skill ability, bad mesmer use to do kitten portals and was a crealy advice to know how good the mesmer was. Ofc is so strong maybe like helseth said one time i was watching his stream anet could increase cd instead of kiling the ability like they did.

    About mesmer being bound to portal well , as a roamer class portals allows to somehow compare mes utility to thief also i think mesmer is way better at ganking due to its condi pressure cc and boon removal.

    Like someone said on the forum ye mes is bounded to portal as thief to shortbow or even mes to blink and thief to shadow step. I dont think this is a problem . I would like to see a power shatter lg mes again , thats the variation mes should have and sharing a utility like portal is not that drastical .

    Yep i played mes myself sometiems and playing vs thief is like one steal and u kitten , plasma maybe shoulx get some nerf but i think thief countering mes state shouldnt change

    I rember both sindrener and helseth playing together and that was so beatiful to watch rly .

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @wevh.2903 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @wevh.2903 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @wevh.2903 said:

    @Tayga.3192 said:

    @wevh.2903 said:
    Being meta doesnt mean it is not balanced ,

    Yes I agree, but thief is more than "meta". Look at any competitive team, they have 4 anything and 1 thief in their team.

    mesmer could be with portal

    Yeah the ultimate "nobody uses" skill.

    Ye but thats not bad , thief makes game fluid and counters slowly stuff , i mean ofc it is good af there is no way to negate it but i feel its role totally needed.

    Also thief can co-exist with other roamer specs like power rev/nades holo or including mesmer. With portal i mean the not nerfed portal . This skills made pvp lot more competitive while making mesmer have some value over thief .

    how can a mesmer exist in a game where every team is guarantee to have a hard counter to you? even funny you would put mesmer as a roamer, you know. To contest the thief that hard counters you. As long as thief is overpowered as kitten, and mandatory in every team. Mesmer will not be viable choice unless its equally overpowered as kitten.

    Mesmer was viable with portal roaming together with a thief. Ye both of them on a team comp .

    Mesmer with portal without actual nerf woulf be meta for sure . It allows to do a lot of stuff , conquest is about rotation and portal there is a masterpiece.

    its not a masterpiece when mesmer is so kitten its forced to use portal as a survivability tool every time. Its a win more ability, yes often its fun and you can make cool things but its a win more ability and those in general are unhealthy.

    Portal was proved to be a high skill ability, bad mesmer use to do kitten portals and was a crealy advice to know how good the mesmer was. Ofc is so strong maybe like helseth said one time i was watching his stream anet could increase cd instead of kiling the ability like they did.

    About mesmer being bound to portal well , as a roamer class portals allows to somehow compare mes utility to thief also i think mesmer is way better at ganking due to its condi pressure cc and boon removal.

    Like someone said on the forum ye mes is bounded to portal as thief to shortbow or even mes to blink and thief to shadow step. I dont think this is a problem . I would like to see a power shatter lg mes again , thats the variation mes should have and sharing a utility like portal is not that drastical .

    Yep i played mes myself sometiems and playing vs thief is like one steal and u kitten , plasma maybe shoulx get some nerf but i think thief countering mes state shouldnt change

    I rember both sindrener and helseth playing together and that was so beatiful to watch rly .

    its hard to see any portal mesmer, the only ones I see are unranked/ranked against scrubs, where you play game of " avoid that 1 good player "
    and whenever I saw mesmer with portal in at/mat he gets farmed off respawn and forced to use portal as a defensive tool.
    I played with portal, its feast and famine skill. Some games things just dont align and its useless, and some others it lets you kitten someone repeatedly with 2-3 people, or constantly keep someone afking on a node similar to how kitten broken shadow portal was ( its still viable btw, so even if you wanted portal you can just use thief for shadowportal instead if you run 2man groups and run with holo/power rev instead ) The bigger advantage your team has over enemy the better portal becomes, you can rotate kill someone ( you have to do it fast or else it wears off and its useless -> this is why you will find 2 top players actually make good value from portal but only sometimes, but if they play on even footing its just bad )
    And after playing with it its cool as kitten skill, but I dont think I want it to be good, it feels kitten to afk on a node cuz mesmer placed his kitten portal there and you are forced to stay there for 40s. And when you really think about it locking someone on side to afk is almost as good if not as good as killing them, and its somewhat risk free.
    And coming back to thief vs mesmer thing, I hate it cuz I play against thief EVERY SINGLE GAME for 5000 games if not more, there is thief in EVERY kitten TEAM ALWAYS. So by default mesmer to be viable, it HAS to be overpowered to manage that. And its unhealthy. I have NEVER played a serious game, where both teams did not have at least 1 thief. It NEVER happens.
    Its fine to have hard counters, problem is that thief is MANDATORY ALWAYS. Its not necro vs ranger when you will get countered and have a kitten game,where you try to avoid/outplay them. no no no, you get kitten repeatedly over and over and over again. And there is no reward for winning either, your victory is not dying.
    It reminds me from AT I had.
    3 kitten duels with a thief, once thief made no mistakes so I died. twice I outplayed the kitten out of him so he fled, and my " victory " was that he used his faster mobility to gank ally thief with plasma he stole by attacking from stealth, there is no winning against good thief as mesmer, there is just losing less.

  • Shiyo.3578Shiyo.3578 Member ✭✭✭✭

    If your hard counter is the most mobile class in the game WITH stealth that ALSO gets every boon in existence for you playing said class, your class is literally useless. IDK why it's so hard for the devs to understand this.

    Thief is a bigger issue than holo in pvp AND wvw small scale.

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭

    It's not really condi meta, but bunker meta.
    Just so happen that the best bunkers, Necro, Herald and Guard, primarily play Condi.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 4, 2020

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @wevh.2903 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @wevh.2903 said:

    @Tayga.3192 said:

    @wevh.2903 said:
    Being meta doesnt mean it is not balanced ,

    Yes I agree, but thief is more than "meta". Look at any competitive team, they have 4 anything and 1 thief in their team.

    mesmer could be with portal

    Yeah the ultimate "nobody uses" skill.

    Ye but thats not bad , thief makes game fluid and counters slowly stuff , i mean ofc it is good af there is no way to negate it but i feel its role totally needed.

    Also thief can co-exist with other roamer specs like power rev/nades holo or including mesmer. With portal i mean the not nerfed portal . This skills made pvp lot more competitive while making mesmer have some value over thief .

    how can a mesmer exist in a game where every team is guarantee to have a hard counter to you? even funny you would put mesmer as a roamer, you know. To contest the thief that hard counters you. As long as thief is overpowered as kitten, and mandatory in every team. Mesmer will not be viable choice unless its equally overpowered as kitten.

    Mesmer was viable with portal roaming together with a thief. Ye both of them on a team comp .

    Mesmer with portal without actual nerf woulf be meta for sure . It allows to do a lot of stuff , conquest is about rotation and portal there is a masterpiece.

    its not a masterpiece when mesmer is so kitten its forced to use portal as a survivability tool every time. Its a win more ability, yes often its fun and you can make cool things but its a win more ability and those in general are unhealthy.

    Remove sb 5 on thief, see how awesome it still is. U go on a out how broken thief is yet if u remove sb5 its basically in same position as mesmer, except mesmers gank outa stealthis 16k not 7k like a booned up power thief's burst. Yeah mesmers get countered by thief but thief has its counters as well, most classes do. Thief is taken every match because its mobility lends greatly to the cap/decap mechanic in conquest, if it was purely combat based thief would drop tiers fast. All mesmer needs is it portal back.

    yes, if you remove ability from a class it becomes worse, what a surprise, guys, holo is not OP, cuz if you dont take explosions you dont 1shot people! so its fine.
    it doesnt matter how much damage mesmer can do from steath if its permanently dead, it cant stealth or run like thief can, so when I whiff my combo, im kitten punished for it. Thief cant be punished so by default its better. Always.

    EDIT
    its better to always do 10k dmg and survive then to sometimes deal 16k and sometimes whiff and die.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @wevh.2903 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @wevh.2903 said:

    @Tayga.3192 said:

    @wevh.2903 said:
    Being meta doesnt mean it is not balanced ,

    Yes I agree, but thief is more than "meta". Look at any competitive team, they have 4 anything and 1 thief in their team.

    mesmer could be with portal

    Yeah the ultimate "nobody uses" skill.

    Ye but thats not bad , thief makes game fluid and counters slowly stuff , i mean ofc it is good af there is no way to negate it but i feel its role totally needed.

    Also thief can co-exist with other roamer specs like power rev/nades holo or including mesmer. With portal i mean the not nerfed portal . This skills made pvp lot more competitive while making mesmer have some value over thief .

    how can a mesmer exist in a game where every team is guarantee to have a hard counter to you? even funny you would put mesmer as a roamer, you know. To contest the thief that hard counters you. As long as thief is overpowered as kitten, and mandatory in every team. Mesmer will not be viable choice unless its equally overpowered as kitten.

    Mesmer was viable with portal roaming together with a thief. Ye both of them on a team comp .

    Mesmer with portal without actual nerf woulf be meta for sure . It allows to do a lot of stuff , conquest is about rotation and portal there is a masterpiece.

    its not a masterpiece when mesmer is so kitten its forced to use portal as a survivability tool every time. Its a win more ability, yes often its fun and you can make cool things but its a win more ability and those in general are unhealthy.

    Remove sb 5 on thief, see how awesome it still is. U go on a out how broken thief is yet if u remove sb5 its basically in same position as mesmer, except mesmers gank outa stealthis 16k not 7k like a booned up power thief's burst. Yeah mesmers get countered by thief but thief has its counters as well, most classes do. Thief is taken every match because its mobility lends greatly to the cap/decap mechanic in conquest, if it was purely combat based thief would drop tiers fast. All mesmer needs is it portal back.

    yes, if you remove ability from a class it becomes worse, what a surprise, guys, holo is not OP, cuz if you dont take explosions you dont 1shot people! so its fine.
    it doesnt matter how much damage mesmer can do from steath if its permanently dead, it cant stealth or run like thief can, so when I whiff my combo, im kitten punished for it. Thief cant be punished so by default its better. Always.

    Can you think of any other class, where, if you remove 1 weapon skill. Not an elite. Not a profession mechanic. Not even a utility skill. But 1 weapon skill. Where if you remove that, the class immediately goes from "you should have one on your team" to "so unplayable that if you get one on your team, you lose".

    EDIT
    its better to always do 10k dmg and survive then to sometimes deal 16k and sometimes whiff and die.

    Thief doesnt do 10k, not even with critical strikes. Let alone 16k.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 4, 2020

    @UNOwen.7132
    Thief would not be underpowered without sb 5, plenty of times as a thief you roam so kitten fast that switching to shortbow will mean that you rotate with sb in hand instead of daggers, after removal of SB thief would go from mandatory in every team or you automatically lose the game to : mandatory on most small maps since it can move between points in 5s but still very good on bigger maps.

    Speaking of overpowered classes there isnt much to choose from, the closest thing that comes to mind is if nades holo with shield would lose shield 5.
    Sure it would still burst people down but with 1 cooldown less it would be dead meat to reaper/power herald and thiefs so it would go from overpowered to average, still propably worse off then thief without sb5.

    BTW if sb wasnt this broken mb something interesting like d/p + s/d could be a thing where you rotate with hearthseeker + sword port, on most maps you would be equally fast if not faster, capable of taking duels much better like s/d does, you would take ini recovery in stealth to cover extra in combat ini costs.
    But you would lose broken clusters+sb autos which both are REALLY good and in general having only melee weapons sucks even as a class with teleports.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @wevh.2903 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @wevh.2903 said:

    @Tayga.3192 said:

    @wevh.2903 said:
    Being meta doesnt mean it is not balanced ,

    Yes I agree, but thief is more than "meta". Look at any competitive team, they have 4 anything and 1 thief in their team.

    mesmer could be with portal

    Yeah the ultimate "nobody uses" skill.

    Ye but thats not bad , thief makes game fluid and counters slowly stuff , i mean ofc it is good af there is no way to negate it but i feel its role totally needed.

    Also thief can co-exist with other roamer specs like power rev/nades holo or including mesmer. With portal i mean the not nerfed portal . This skills made pvp lot more competitive while making mesmer have some value over thief .

    how can a mesmer exist in a game where every team is guarantee to have a hard counter to you? even funny you would put mesmer as a roamer, you know. To contest the thief that hard counters you. As long as thief is overpowered as kitten, and mandatory in every team. Mesmer will not be viable choice unless its equally overpowered as kitten.

    Mesmer was viable with portal roaming together with a thief. Ye both of them on a team comp .

    Mesmer with portal without actual nerf woulf be meta for sure . It allows to do a lot of stuff , conquest is about rotation and portal there is a masterpiece.

    its not a masterpiece when mesmer is so kitten its forced to use portal as a survivability tool every time. Its a win more ability, yes often its fun and you can make cool things but its a win more ability and those in general are unhealthy.

    Remove sb 5 on thief, see how awesome it still is. U go on a out how broken thief is yet if u remove sb5 its basically in same position as mesmer, except mesmers gank outa stealthis 16k not 7k like a booned up power thief's burst. Yeah mesmers get countered by thief but thief has its counters as well, most classes do. Thief is taken every match because its mobility lends greatly to the cap/decap mechanic in conquest, if it was purely combat based thief would drop tiers fast. All mesmer needs is it portal back.

    yes, if you remove ability from a class it becomes worse, what a surprise, guys, holo is not OP, cuz if you dont take explosions you dont 1shot people! so its fine.
    it doesnt matter how much damage mesmer can do from steath if its permanently dead, it cant stealth or run like thief can, so when I whiff my combo, im kitten punished for it. Thief cant be punished so by default its better. Always.

    Can you think of any other class, where, if you remove 1 weapon skill. Not an elite. Not a profession mechanic. Not even a utility skill. But 1 weapon skill. Where if you remove that, the class immediately goes from "you should have one on your team" to "so unplayable that if you get one on your team, you lose".

    Power Herald, Unrelenting Assault.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @UNOwen.7132
    Thief would not be underpowered without sb 5, plenty of times as a thief you roam so kitten fast that switching to shortbow will mean that you rotate with sb in hand instead of daggers, after removal of SB thief would go from mandatory in every team or you automatically lose the game to : mandatory on most small maps since it can move between points in 5s but still very good on bigger maps.

    Thief would not be underpowered without sb 5.

    :lol: Oh Im sorry. I didnt expect you to meme it up here. Whoever writes your material, you gotta pay them more, this stuff is gold.

    Jokes aside, you could not have said anything more ignorant if you tried. Of course thief would be very underpowered without shortbow 5. Without it, you dont rotate faster than other classes. Hell, there are classes which will now rotate faster than you. So, youre a class with the worst survivability (oh yeah, no shortbow 5 means you cant even disengage well anymore. Youre just screwed), the worst damage, and the worst utility. Why do you think it would be playable, let alone mandatory anywhere? I get that "irrational thief hatred and ignorance of how thief works" is your gimmick so to speak, but there is a limit to how far you can push it.

    Speaking of overpowered classes there isnt much to choose from, the closest thing that comes to mind is if nades holo with shield would lose shield 5.

    Nah, Nades Holo without shield 5 would still be good. Worse? Yes. But good. There is no class like this, because no class is defined by 1 weapon skill.

    Sure it would still burst people down but with 1 cooldown less it would be dead meat to reaper/power herald and thiefs so it would go from overpowered to average, still propably worse off then thief without sb5.

    Dead Meat to thieves.
    Worse off than thief without sb5

    Ok just out of curiosity. Are we supposed to take you seriously, or are you legitimately just hard trolling now? I cant actually tell. Because you say things so obviously and hilariously wrong, that I cant fathom that even the forums renowned thief hater would unironically believe it.

    BTW if sb wasnt this broken mb something interesting like d/p + s/d could be a thing where you rotate with hearthseeker + sword port, on most maps you would be equally fast if not faster, capable of taking duels much better like s/d does, you would take ini recovery in stealth to cover extra in combat ini costs.

    You would be way slower. Heartseeker is not good for rotation. Much too slow. You also would gain no benefit from that double combination, since S/D and D/P want different things. SA is totally useless to S/D, so it wouldnt be good at dueling, D/P wouldnt gain any benefit from having a dead weight weaponset on its flipside, and ini recovery in stealth wouldnt help anyone. It would be bad. The only weaponset Id maybe consider on the other side is P/P, but it would not save the class.

    But you would lose broken clusters+sb autos which both are REALLY good and in general having only melee weapons sucks even as a class with teleports.

    Thats not the issue. The fact that youre a kitten class without the mobility that made you relevant is.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @wevh.2903 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @wevh.2903 said:

    @Tayga.3192 said:

    @wevh.2903 said:
    Being meta doesnt mean it is not balanced ,

    Yes I agree, but thief is more than "meta". Look at any competitive team, they have 4 anything and 1 thief in their team.

    mesmer could be with portal

    Yeah the ultimate "nobody uses" skill.

    Ye but thats not bad , thief makes game fluid and counters slowly stuff , i mean ofc it is good af there is no way to negate it but i feel its role totally needed.

    Also thief can co-exist with other roamer specs like power rev/nades holo or including mesmer. With portal i mean the not nerfed portal . This skills made pvp lot more competitive while making mesmer have some value over thief .

    how can a mesmer exist in a game where every team is guarantee to have a hard counter to you? even funny you would put mesmer as a roamer, you know. To contest the thief that hard counters you. As long as thief is overpowered as kitten, and mandatory in every team. Mesmer will not be viable choice unless its equally overpowered as kitten.

    Mesmer was viable with portal roaming together with a thief. Ye both of them on a team comp .

    Mesmer with portal without actual nerf woulf be meta for sure . It allows to do a lot of stuff , conquest is about rotation and portal there is a masterpiece.

    its not a masterpiece when mesmer is so kitten its forced to use portal as a survivability tool every time. Its a win more ability, yes often its fun and you can make cool things but its a win more ability and those in general are unhealthy.

    Remove sb 5 on thief, see how awesome it still is. U go on a out how broken thief is yet if u remove sb5 its basically in same position as mesmer, except mesmers gank outa stealthis 16k not 7k like a booned up power thief's burst. Yeah mesmers get countered by thief but thief has its counters as well, most classes do. Thief is taken every match because its mobility lends greatly to the cap/decap mechanic in conquest, if it was purely combat based thief would drop tiers fast. All mesmer needs is it portal back.

    yes, if you remove ability from a class it becomes worse, what a surprise, guys, holo is not OP, cuz if you dont take explosions you dont 1shot people! so its fine.
    it doesnt matter how much damage mesmer can do from steath if its permanently dead, it cant stealth or run like thief can, so when I whiff my combo, im kitten punished for it. Thief cant be punished so by default its better. Always.

    Can you think of any other class, where, if you remove 1 weapon skill. Not an elite. Not a profession mechanic. Not even a utility skill. But 1 weapon skill. Where if you remove that, the class immediately goes from "you should have one on your team" to "so unplayable that if you get one on your team, you lose".

    Power Herald, Unrelenting Assault.

    Class, not build. Power Herald may die because of Unrelenting Assault, but Revenant as a whole remains playable. Whether its condi rev or Renegade. However every thief build dies with SB 5.

  • Kodama.6453Kodama.6453 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    Class, not build. Power Herald may die because of Unrelenting Assault, but Revenant as a whole remains playable. Whether its condi rev or Renegade. However every thief build dies with SB 5.

    But that is actually an argument for getting rid of SB 5....
    If a skill becomes that mandatory on a class, then it holds too much of the power budget hostage. Without that skill, Anet would be allowed to buff thief in other areas and make them good at something else besides just decapping.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    Class, not build. Power Herald may die because of Unrelenting Assault, but Revenant as a whole remains playable. Whether its condi rev or Renegade. However every thief build dies with SB 5.

    But that is actually an argument for getting rid of SB 5....
    If a skill becomes that mandatory on a class, then it holds too much of the power budget hostage. Without that skill, Anet would be allowed to buff thief in other areas and make them good at something else besides just decapping.

    The problem is that Shortbow 5 is thief. Remove it, and you remove thief and replace it with something new. Dont get me wrong, I would like that, but I know a lot of players wouldnt. So its a non-starter.

  • The viability of thief is dependent on how fast they can get to another node? who would wanna play a boring profession like that

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @FrownyClown.8402 said:
    The viability of thief is dependent on how fast they can get to another node? who would wanna play a boring profession like that

    Yup. And a surprising amount of people, as it turns out.

  • Shiyo.3578Shiyo.3578 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Thief is so strong SB5 isn't even needed anymore. I find myself rarely using it often due to 10s wep swap CD. I find cluster bomb and bouncy autos more impactful if I take out SB.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shiyo.3578 said:
    Thief is so strong SB5 isn't even needed anymore. I find myself rarely using it often due to 10s wep swap CD. I find cluster bomb and bouncy autos more impactful if I take out SB.

    Weren't you trying to argue that you are a thief main? Its not a good look if you say something no thief worth his salt would ever say. "SB5 isnt even needed anymore". What a hilarious joke. Yes, the class that is defined entirely by its ability to outmanouver everyone else doesnt even need the skill that allows it to do that. You do realise how silly that sounds, dont you? Also, why are you swapping from shortbow to dagger in the middle of combat? If youre already on shortbow, that means its a situation where dagger aint great. The 10 second weapon swap CD should never apply.

  • Shiyo.3578Shiyo.3578 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 5, 2020

    Thief is so strong that it does not need SB5, correct. It's too powerful at fighting and team fighting for the mobility it has now. It's why thief is completely busted.

    I wouldn't remove SB5, though. I'd nerf thiefs damage, pressure, and burst. Right now you have to have a seizure at your keyboard to fail at securing kills on thief. I thought getting kills was easy on holo, but it's even easier on thief...lol

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 5, 2020

    @Shiyo.3578 said:
    Thief is so strong that it does not need SB5, correct. It's too powerful at fighting and team fighting for the mobility it has now. It's why thief is completely busted.

    :lol: Man you really dont know when you absolutely shouldnt double down. Its not powerful at fighting at all, let alone team fighting. Its mobility comes entirely from shortbow 5. Thief isnt "completely busted", and youd know that if you actually played thief. And no, you need shortbow 5. Its legitimately the only reason the class is playable. Without it youre like a really, really bad Holo. A fraction of the damage, a fraction of the survivability, worse mobility, worse utility, worse CC and absolutely no advantage.

    I wouldn't remove SB5, though. I'd nerf thiefs damage, pressure, and burst. Right now you have to have a seizure at your keyboard to fail at securing kills on thief. I thought getting kills was easy on holo, but it's even easier on thief...lol

    Yes, nerf the damage of the class that already does very little damage. You do realise that in a +1 scenario, you will secure a kill even if you do very little damage, right? Thats the point of +1ing (and the point of thief, I suppose). Now on the other hand, try to solo-kill someone as thief, and you will realise "wait kitten, I legit have absolutely 0 chance of killing them". So what do you think happens if you remove shortbow 5, and make thief slower than other classes that can solo-kill? Seriously, what is it with thief haters having the weirdest ideas about thief.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 I have noticed a trend with your ideas and thought processes...

    “3v3”

    “3v3”

    “3v3”

    “3v3”

    “1v1”

    “1v1s”

    “2v2”

    “1v1s”

    “1v1s”

    “1v1”

    “1v2s”

    “1v1”

    “1v1s”

    “2v2”

    “2v2”

    “1v2s”

    “1v1”

    GW2 is primarily a team based game, so I’d suggest looking at things from that perspective more.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 5, 2020

    @Swagger.1459

    Not sure what kind of point you're trying to make there, but the most frequent types of combat engagements are in this order:

    1. 3v3s = typical team fight, the most frequent type of engagement for most players.
    2. 1v1s = typical experience while playing side nodes, but there are less side noders than team fighters.
    3. 2v2s = typical experience when needing to bail mid and take sides.
    4. 1v2s = typical experience when you're the highest MMR/Rating in your ranked game and are being forced to carry while you have 1 or 2 of your players exploding on impact and spending 75% or greater of their time in the respawn.

    ^ Literally anyone who plays the game actively right now, knows that this much is true.

    You actually don't see many 4v4s or 5v5s happening in conquest unless one team is steam rolled so hard that they're cornered into their spawn point.

    If you're looking for a reason to come @ me, do it with some kind of accuracy.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 5, 2020

    @Trevor Boyer.6524

    Ben P- “GW2 PvP is essentially a team mode”.

    This isn't a game of dueling 1v1 or 2v2 or 3v3, nor should profession development be based off of those numbers. And if you think we should, then there are a whole lot of things needing to be changed for your 1-3 numbers.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    @Trevor Boyer.6524

    Ben P- “GW2 PvP is essentially a team mode”.

    Keyword there bud, is "essentially"

    Conquest is a 5v5 team mode where things like 1/3/1 splits are happening around the map at all times during a match.

  • Dantheman.3589Dantheman.3589 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I think thief damage is fairly busted. The dp build is almost entirely specced for mobility, stealth and sustain- granted it uses berserker amulet but it still hits insanely hard granted what it’s specced for. It can get by just spamming backstabs and heartseekers etc which I’ve seen hit like 6-7k per at times. It’s not 100% necessary as some suggest, but it might as well be since it has no boundaries due to mobility and stealth and has instant high impact and also insanely high passive impact due to the idea that “o they can stealth for 10s and get across the map in that time”.

  • Megametzler.5729Megametzler.5729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    In testimony to how passive CC has butchered the flow of balance, in conjunction with some other glaring balance issues.

    Right now we are in patching where only 4 classes/builds are considered meta:

    1. Tempest
    2. Reaper
    3. Holosmith
    4. DP Daredevil

    ~ https://metabattle.com/wiki/Conquest

    Why is it happening? Shocking Aura Share and Flashbang are running the direction of the meta and pushing out classes/builds that can't front enough CC & Stability uptime to deal with the chemistry of what's happening while still remaining viable. It's kind of happening like this:

    1. Tempest covers all of the weaknesses that the Reaper has in its defense, and then Reaper covers the Tempest's lack of direct offensive pressure. Then both of their elites Tornado & Lich, also have unusually strong chemistry when used together. It is important to note that these two classes have large amounts of CC, Stability uptime, and Stun Breaks, while still being able to run very powerful build structures. <- This is key to understand where the meta is being driven from. Post ultra nerf patch that removed so much stability & stun breaks from other classes, these two classes have found a very strong position to be able to abuse the new dynamic after the nerf patch, in a new style of "broken" that we've never really seen before. - The Tempest is by far the strongest and only Support Role needed. The Reaper is by far the strongest and only Team Fighter needed.
    2. It all begins with the Tempest & the Reaper combo, but mainly just the Tempest. The Reaper is just the Tempest's ideal right hand man. It's the Shocking Aura Share for the entire team that puts the Tempest and the Tempest alone, in a position where he is driving the current not so diverse meta. What makes the Reaper position #2 is not only because he is the Tempest's best wing man, but also because of his level of access to Stability so that he can get in at the enemy Tempest and actually deal damage without having all of his combo strings being interrupted constantly from enemy Shocking Auras. The Reaper is getting frequent Stab from Shroud 3, plenty of Stab while in Lich, or even extra frequent Stab stacks if he uses Chilled To The Bone. And this isn't to mention the Stun Breaks on his utility bar and all of the CC that his weapon skills and Shroud has, and what the Tempest buffs him with. Again, the level of Stab, CC, Stun break uptime between these two classes is unbelievably high compared to other class configurations. In a nutshell, they make it so you can't move or do anything, while they are able to still move and do things. It's that simple, and the very large bulk of this exploit is due to Shocking Aura Share, which is driving this meta.
    3. Then we have ye good ole' Holosaiyan. He's always the strongest bruiser in the game that has access to the most mechanics, that self sustains fine on his own, and deals a lot of damage while maintaining good mobility. We could argue how OP or if it is OP but that's not really point here. The point to note is that it is able to maintain a top slot in this no diversity meta for 2x reasons. First of all it has Flashbang, another passive CC that is hard and soft CC, and it happens frequently. This new and very powerful over defensive ability is for some reason available on an offensive trait line https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Explosives and it allows the Holosaiyan to passively be super defensive while running a glass cannon berserker amulet full damage grenade build, while it plays 100% aggressively, mechanically. The second reason and probably the bigger reason why it can hang in the remaining 4 metas, is the large amount of Stab access/uptime that it is. This allows it to be able to get in and actually deal damage to a Tempest or those around it, through the instant passive CCs of Shocking Aura. It also allows the Holosaiyan the ability to deal with other Holosaiyan passive CC. - The Holosmith is tweaked SO MUCH as a bruiser, that it can perform 3x job roles equally as well as the other: 1) Team Fighter, 2) DPS + Roamer, 3) Side Node Duelist. This specialization is packing way too much in this patching.
    4. DP Daredevil is the only DPS + Roamer that is needed. Due to how Tempest/Reaper/Holo have pushed certain specific builds/classes out of viability that normally should be able to deal with the DP Daredevil. Due to this effect, right now the DP has no contestation whatsoever in the role of DPS + Roamer. Anyone who would play something that is good at dealing with DP Daredevil, will be getting trashed by the above aforementioned classes when they try to do so. The DP is also strong at +ing against Tempests & Reapers when they are separated, which gives his job a a great deal importance within this patching. Some people may say that Thief is currently OP, but honestly it's just that Tempest/Reaper/Holo is making it look that way. The DP Daredevil doesn't worry so much about the passive CC because it can out rotate anything, especially the above 3 classes/builds.

    So what happened is that the disproportionate nerfing to some classes, concerning removing access & uptime to Stab & Stun Breaks, along with the implementation of entirely passive CC skills, has resulted in a situation where most classes/builds in the game have to sit out and revel in their ineptitude. This is because passive CC play has set a standard where classes/builds are now required to have a certain level of Stab acces & uptime to be able to deal with the passive CC meta. Ironically enough, the very same classes with all of the passive CC are also the classes with high Stab & Stun Break uptime.

    This problem begins and ends with Shocking Aura Share.

    Even though Flashbang is also an entirely broken design, it stands in the shadow of the tall tall problem that is Shocking Aura Share post nerf patch that removed so much Stab access & uptime on so many classes/builds.

    ^ Fix it please. In a game with 9 classes that each have 3 specializations each, surly our meta during a given patching should be a larger list than 4 builds.

    While aura share is surely one problem, it is not the problem. They should not just change support tempest and then wait another six months watching whether holos still dominate.

    Yes, change support tempst. As suggested in other threads: the possibility to mass cleanse in fire was the cause. Make that more egoistic or force support tempests into earth with other changes.

    And then delete all those ridiculous holo traits and adjust grenades. Holos would be just as strong if FB were in tempests place or there would be no support at all.
    Just like thief has always been strong in almost any meta. None of your arguments pointed out how those three enable thief to be strong - which build used to hard counter thieves except a side node heavy meta (looking at you, spellbreaker, but you would be weak no matter how strong or weak tempest/reaper/holos are)?

  • wevh.2903wevh.2903 Member ✭✭✭

    @Yasai.3549 said:
    It's not really condi meta, but bunker meta.
    Just so happen that the best bunkers, Necro, Herald and Guard, primarily play Condi.

    Is not a bunker meta , the only bunker part of pvp is sidenoders , main pvp comp is nades holo ,reaper, tempest(healer suport not a bunker) , daredevil and scrapper . Thr only bunker there is scrapper . Ofc there os comps with triple renegade played by only team but they got beaten r55(who plays that comp)

  • wevh.2903wevh.2903 Member ✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    Class, not build. Power Herald may die because of Unrelenting Assault, but Revenant as a whole remains playable. Whether its condi rev or Renegade. However every thief build dies with SB 5.

    But that is actually an argument for getting rid of SB 5....
    If a skill becomes that mandatory on a class, then it holds too much of the power budget hostage. Without that skill, Anet would be allowed to buff thief in other areas and make them good at something else besides just decapping.

    The problem is that Shortbow 5 is thief. Remove it, and you remove thief and replace it with something new. Dont get me wrong, I would like that, but I know a lot of players wouldnt. So its a non-starter.

    Remove shortbow 5 and u will have all slowly bunker low skill stuff back , nerf shadow arts but dont kill thief wich gives rotations a mean

  • wevh.2903wevh.2903 Member ✭✭✭

    @Shiyo.3578 said:
    If your hard counter is the most mobile class in the game WITH stealth that ALSO gets every boon in existence for you playing said class, your class is literally useless. IDK why it's so hard for the devs to understand this.

    Thief is a bigger issue than holo in pvp AND wvw small scale.

    Wvw small scale ye, u mean thief in wvw is good for killijg big groups on random ppl cuz on a serious gvg small group v snall group no one would pick a thief and this is proven. There is couple of 5v5ing between roaming guids and no one had thief on their comps

  • wevh.2903wevh.2903 Member ✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @wevh.2903 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @wevh.2903 said:

    @Tayga.3192 said:

    @wevh.2903 said:
    Being meta doesnt mean it is not balanced ,

    Yes I agree, but thief is more than "meta". Look at any competitive team, they have 4 anything and 1 thief in their team.

    mesmer could be with portal

    Yeah the ultimate "nobody uses" skill.

    Ye but thats not bad , thief makes game fluid and counters slowly stuff , i mean ofc it is good af there is no way to negate it but i feel its role totally needed.

    Also thief can co-exist with other roamer specs like power rev/nades holo or including mesmer. With portal i mean the not nerfed portal . This skills made pvp lot more competitive while making mesmer have some value over thief .

    how can a mesmer exist in a game where every team is guarantee to have a hard counter to you? even funny you would put mesmer as a roamer, you know. To contest the thief that hard counters you. As long as thief is overpowered as kitten, and mandatory in every team. Mesmer will not be viable choice unless its equally overpowered as kitten.

    Mesmer was viable with portal roaming together with a thief. Ye both of them on a team comp .

    Mesmer with portal without actual nerf woulf be meta for sure . It allows to do a lot of stuff , conquest is about rotation and portal there is a masterpiece.

    its not a masterpiece when mesmer is so kitten its forced to use portal as a survivability tool every time. Its a win more ability, yes often its fun and you can make cool things but its a win more ability and those in general are unhealthy.

    Remove sb 5 on thief, see how awesome it still is. U go on a out how broken thief is yet if u remove sb5 its basically in same position as mesmer, except mesmers gank outa stealthis 16k not 7k like a booned up power thief's burst. Yeah mesmers get countered by thief but thief has its counters as well, most classes do. Thief is taken every match because its mobility lends greatly to the cap/decap mechanic in conquest, if it was purely combat based thief would drop tiers fast. All mesmer needs is it portal back.

    yes, if you remove ability from a class it becomes worse, what a surprise, guys, holo is not OP, cuz if you dont take explosions you dont 1shot people! so its fine.
    it doesnt matter how much damage mesmer can do from steath if its permanently dead, it cant stealth or run like thief can, so when I whiff my combo, im kitten punished for it. Thief cant be punished so by default its better. Always.

    Can you think of any other class, where, if you remove 1 weapon skill. Not an elite. Not a profession mechanic. Not even a utility skill. But 1 weapon skill. Where if you remove that, the class immediately goes from "you should have one on your team" to "so unplayable that if you get one on your team, you lose".

    Power Herald, Unrelenting Assault.

    I dont think sword 3 is that crucial on power rev

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 5, 2020

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    @Trevor Boyer.6524

    Ben P- “GW2 PvP is essentially a team mode”.

    Keyword there bud, is "essentially"

    Conquest is a 5v5 team mode where things like 1/3/1 splits are happening around the map at all times during a match.

    The keywords of Ben’s statement are “team mode”.

    Honestly, what are you expecting the devs to do for balance? Review each weapon skill, slot skill, trait, and class mechanic for 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, 5v5, 5 person pve modes, 10 person pve modes, open world pve modes, and XvXvX wvw mode? How would those balance notes work when the fundamental design of GW2 is as a team based game?

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 5, 2020

    @Dantheman.3589 said:
    I think thief damage is fairly busted. The dp build is almost entirely specced for mobility, stealth and sustain- granted it uses berserker amulet but it still hits insanely hard granted what it’s specced for. It can get by just spamming backstabs and heartseekers etc which I’ve seen hit like 6-7k per at times. It’s not 100% necessary as some suggest, but it might as well be since it has no boundaries due to mobility and stealth and has instant high impact and also insanely high passive impact due to the idea that “o they can stealth for 10s and get across the map in that time”.

    Its specced almost entirely for damage. You pick Daredevil because its the traitline that gives the most damage (after DA, the traitline previously picked over it, was nerfed hard). You pick SA because its the most reliable damage (it does basically nothing for your sustain, especially now that people are using hidden thief). And you pick Trickery because its mandatory (though it also gives a lot of damage). And ontop of that it runs Berserkers amulet.

    And for how all-in it goes on damage, it hits pretty poor. Backstabs on a squishy class hit for 5k. If the enemy has any toughness, it hits for less. Heartseeker can hit for 5.5k on a squishy class at <25%, less on toughness again. Thats very little. I do close to that damage on core engineer just using grenades. While actually picking an entire traitline purely for defense (Id hit harder if I used Firearms, but core engineer cant run away with ease, so I cant exactly lower my survivability to as low as thieves).

  • Dantheman.3589Dantheman.3589 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:
    I think thief damage is fairly busted. The dp build is almost entirely specced for mobility, stealth and sustain- granted it uses berserker amulet but it still hits insanely hard granted what it’s specced for. It can get by just spamming backstabs and heartseekers etc which I’ve seen hit like 6-7k per at times. It’s not 100% necessary as some suggest, but it might as well be since it has no boundaries due to mobility and stealth and has instant high impact and also insanely high passive impact due to the idea that “o they can stealth for 10s and get across the map in that time”.

    Its specced almost entirely for damage. You pick Daredevil because its the traitline that gives the most damage (after DA, the traitline previously picked over it, was nerfed hard). You pick SA because its the most reliable damage (it does basically nothing for your sustain, especially now that people are using hidden thief). And you pick Trickery because its mandatory (though it also gives a lot of damage). And ontop of that it runs Berserkers amulet.

    And for how all-in it goes on damage, it hits pretty poor. Backstabs on a squishy class hit for 5k. If the enemy has any toughness, it hits for less. Heartseeker can hit for 5.5k on a squishy class at <25%, less on toughness again. Thats very little. I do close to that damage on core engineer just using grenades. While actually picking an entire traitline purely for defense (Id hit harder if I used Firearms, but core engineer cant run away with ease, so I cant exactly lower my survivability to as low as thieves).

    Shadow arts is and has been a defensive trait line since gw1 are u such an online miracle that you can change the definition of the trait lines since before the game was created? I think not, there are some damage modifiers but the #1 reason for these lines are mobility(DrD) intiative(trickery) and stealth(shadow arts). None of these traitlines are specifically taken to improve damage it’s just in the long run they add some, mostly from modifiers though that are not even close to 100% guaranteed to be present.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 5, 2020

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:
    I think thief damage is fairly busted. The dp build is almost entirely specced for mobility, stealth and sustain- granted it uses berserker amulet but it still hits insanely hard granted what it’s specced for. It can get by just spamming backstabs and heartseekers etc which I’ve seen hit like 6-7k per at times. It’s not 100% necessary as some suggest, but it might as well be since it has no boundaries due to mobility and stealth and has instant high impact and also insanely high passive impact due to the idea that “o they can stealth for 10s and get across the map in that time”.

    Its specced almost entirely for damage. You pick Daredevil because its the traitline that gives the most damage (after DA, the traitline previously picked over it, was nerfed hard). You pick SA because its the most reliable damage (it does basically nothing for your sustain, especially now that people are using hidden thief). And you pick Trickery because its mandatory (though it also gives a lot of damage). And ontop of that it runs Berserkers amulet.

    And for how all-in it goes on damage, it hits pretty poor. Backstabs on a squishy class hit for 5k. If the enemy has any toughness, it hits for less. Heartseeker can hit for 5.5k on a squishy class at <25%, less on toughness again. Thats very little. I do close to that damage on core engineer just using grenades. While actually picking an entire traitline purely for defense (Id hit harder if I used Firearms, but core engineer cant run away with ease, so I cant exactly lower my survivability to as low as thieves).

    Shadow arts is and has been a defensive trait line since gw1 are u such an online miracle that you can change the definition of the trait lines since before the game was created? I think not, there are some damage modifiers but the #1 reason for these lines are mobility(DrD) intiative(trickery) and stealth(shadow arts). None of these traitlines are specifically taken to improve damage it’s just in the long run they add some, mostly from modifiers though that are not even close to 100% guaranteed to be present.

    Shadow arts was a defensive traitline. Keyword WAS. While it was a defensive traitline, it was largely unpicked. Then a while back they changed it around a bit, and now its not used as a defensive traitline. In fact, the reason its picked now is because of shadow siphoning, leeching venoms and Rending Shade. 3 traits with no real defensive value. In fact, lets look beyond that. The remaining 3 traits are the 2 minor traits (stealth when using healing skill. Redundant since HiS is used anyway. Provides no defense. Increased stealth duration from skills. Also pointless, no defense.) And Hidden Thief, which gives Stealth on steal (used for quick backstabs) and cd reduction. So tell me, where in this pile of traits do you see any defense. Its used as a damage traitline with minor utility.

    Daredevil is picked 100% for damage, dash is just gravy. Remember, it wasnt so long ago that the meta thief build was DA/SA/Trickery. The only reason Daredevil was picked again over DA was because DAs damage was hard nerfed, and now Daredevil gives more damage. If Daredevil was picked for mobility, why was it ignored in favour of DA? And Trickery is the only one that isnt picked for damage. Its picked because its mandatory for initiative. But even so it provides a decent chunk of damage. In order, the #1 reason to pick these traitlines is damage (Shadow Arts), damage (Daredevil) and initiative with a bit of damage (Trickery). Its more damage-focused than most classes.

  • Dantheman.3589Dantheman.3589 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:
    I think thief damage is fairly busted. The dp build is almost entirely specced for mobility, stealth and sustain- granted it uses berserker amulet but it still hits insanely hard granted what it’s specced for. It can get by just spamming backstabs and heartseekers etc which I’ve seen hit like 6-7k per at times. It’s not 100% necessary as some suggest, but it might as well be since it has no boundaries due to mobility and stealth and has instant high impact and also insanely high passive impact due to the idea that “o they can stealth for 10s and get across the map in that time”.

    Its specced almost entirely for damage. You pick Daredevil because its the traitline that gives the most damage (after DA, the traitline previously picked over it, was nerfed hard). You pick SA because its the most reliable damage (it does basically nothing for your sustain, especially now that people are using hidden thief). And you pick Trickery because its mandatory (though it also gives a lot of damage). And ontop of that it runs Berserkers amulet.

    And for how all-in it goes on damage, it hits pretty poor. Backstabs on a squishy class hit for 5k. If the enemy has any toughness, it hits for less. Heartseeker can hit for 5.5k on a squishy class at <25%, less on toughness again. Thats very little. I do close to that damage on core engineer just using grenades. While actually picking an entire traitline purely for defense (Id hit harder if I used Firearms, but core engineer cant run away with ease, so I cant exactly lower my survivability to as low as thieves).

    Shadow arts is and has been a defensive trait line since gw1 are u such an online miracle that you can change the definition of the trait lines since before the game was created? I think not, there are some damage modifiers but the #1 reason for these lines are mobility(DrD) intiative(trickery) and stealth(shadow arts). None of these traitlines are specifically taken to improve damage it’s just in the long run they add some, mostly from modifiers though that are not even close to 100% guaranteed to be present.

    Shadow arts was a defensive traitline. Keyword WAS. While it was a defensive traitline, it was largely unpicked. Then a while back they changed it around a bit, and now its not used as a defensive traitline. In fact, the reason its picked now is because of shadow siphoning, leeching venoms and Rending Shade. 3 traits with no real defensive value. In fact, lets look beyond that. The remaining 3 traits are the 2 minor traits (stealth when using healing skill. Redundant since HiS is used anyway. Provides no defense. Increased stealth duration from skills. Also pointless, no defense.) And Hidden Thief, which gives Stealth on steal (used for quick backstabs) and cd reduction. So tell me, where in this pile of traits do you see any defense. Its used as a damage traitline with minor utility.

    Daredevil is picked 100% for damage, dash is just gravy. Remember, it wasnt so long ago that the meta thief build was DA/SA/Trickery. The only reason Daredevil was picked again over DA was because DAs damage was hard nerfed, and now Daredevil gives more damage. If Daredevil was picked for mobility, why was it ignored in favour of DA? And Trickery is the only one that isnt picked for damage. Its picked because its mandatory for initiative. But even so it provides a decent chunk of damage. In order, the #1 reason to pick these traitlines is damage (Shadow Arts), damage (Daredevil) and initiative with a bit of damage (Trickery). Its more damage-focused than most classes.

    Daredevil is taken for mobility and shadow arts for stealth. Comparing to an old build is well redundant since that build was used for like a month and basically absent for like 5 years. Shadow arts is still by definition a defensive traitline. It has options of stealth or defensive traits and then life shipon which is still fairly defensive. Only offensive one is basically rending shade which isn’t always picked so yeah no.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 6, 2020

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:
    I think thief damage is fairly busted. The dp build is almost entirely specced for mobility, stealth and sustain- granted it uses berserker amulet but it still hits insanely hard granted what it’s specced for. It can get by just spamming backstabs and heartseekers etc which I’ve seen hit like 6-7k per at times. It’s not 100% necessary as some suggest, but it might as well be since it has no boundaries due to mobility and stealth and has instant high impact and also insanely high passive impact due to the idea that “o they can stealth for 10s and get across the map in that time”.

    Its specced almost entirely for damage. You pick Daredevil because its the traitline that gives the most damage (after DA, the traitline previously picked over it, was nerfed hard). You pick SA because its the most reliable damage (it does basically nothing for your sustain, especially now that people are using hidden thief). And you pick Trickery because its mandatory (though it also gives a lot of damage). And ontop of that it runs Berserkers amulet.

    And for how all-in it goes on damage, it hits pretty poor. Backstabs on a squishy class hit for 5k. If the enemy has any toughness, it hits for less. Heartseeker can hit for 5.5k on a squishy class at <25%, less on toughness again. Thats very little. I do close to that damage on core engineer just using grenades. While actually picking an entire traitline purely for defense (Id hit harder if I used Firearms, but core engineer cant run away with ease, so I cant exactly lower my survivability to as low as thieves).

    Shadow arts is and has been a defensive trait line since gw1 are u such an online miracle that you can change the definition of the trait lines since before the game was created? I think not, there are some damage modifiers but the #1 reason for these lines are mobility(DrD) intiative(trickery) and stealth(shadow arts). None of these traitlines are specifically taken to improve damage it’s just in the long run they add some, mostly from modifiers though that are not even close to 100% guaranteed to be present.

    Shadow arts was a defensive traitline. Keyword WAS. While it was a defensive traitline, it was largely unpicked. Then a while back they changed it around a bit, and now its not used as a defensive traitline. In fact, the reason its picked now is because of shadow siphoning, leeching venoms and Rending Shade. 3 traits with no real defensive value. In fact, lets look beyond that. The remaining 3 traits are the 2 minor traits (stealth when using healing skill. Redundant since HiS is used anyway. Provides no defense. Increased stealth duration from skills. Also pointless, no defense.) And Hidden Thief, which gives Stealth on steal (used for quick backstabs) and cd reduction. So tell me, where in this pile of traits do you see any defense. Its used as a damage traitline with minor utility.

    Daredevil is picked 100% for damage, dash is just gravy. Remember, it wasnt so long ago that the meta thief build was DA/SA/Trickery. The only reason Daredevil was picked again over DA was because DAs damage was hard nerfed, and now Daredevil gives more damage. If Daredevil was picked for mobility, why was it ignored in favour of DA? And Trickery is the only one that isnt picked for damage. Its picked because its mandatory for initiative. But even so it provides a decent chunk of damage. In order, the #1 reason to pick these traitlines is damage (Shadow Arts), damage (Daredevil) and initiative with a bit of damage (Trickery). Its more damage-focused than most classes.

    Daredevil is taken for mobility and shadow arts for stealth. Comparing to an old build is well redundant since that build was used for like a month and basically absent for like 5 years. Shadow arts is still by definition a defensive traitline. It has options of stealth or defensive traits and then life shipon which is still fairly defensive. Only offensive one is basically rending shade which isn’t always picked so yeah no.

    You cant just repeat a wrong thing until it turns true. It will stay false. Shadow Arts is not taken for defense, or stealth, its taken for damage. Why do you think it went unpicked entirely (Even while providing boosts to stealth) all the way up until they added leeching venoms and shadow siphoning? In fact, lets take a closer look, shall we? It does actually have a few defensive traits. Shadow's Embrace. No longer picked. Flickering Shadows, not picked (despite being a 33% damage reduction while revealed). Shadow Saviour, not picked. Instead, its only picked for traits that have no defensive value and are purely offensive. Like the siphon traits (that you only proc when you engage a fight 95% of the time, and as such the healing goes to waste). Shadow Siphoning is an offensive trait. Leeching Venoms is the only offensive trait in a slot that has 2 defensive traits, and its picked 100% of the time. Rending Shade is offensive and picked 90+% of the time. Hidden thief is offensive and used 90+% of the time.

    I dont know how I can simplify it further for you, but the simple fact is that its purely taken as a damage traitline. Oh and as for the "oh its picked for stealth thing", D/Ps primary stealth source is black powder + heartseeker, which doesnt benefit from SA. Meld with Shadows theoretically would, but you already have swiftness. The stealth on heal does nothing, since your heal stealths anyway (And you only use your heal in combat, where you want to drop stealth ASAP, so the duration does nothing). The increased stealth from skills does nothing for similar reasons.

    As for Daredevil my point still stands. Of course I can compare it to the build that immediately preceded it. Especially because that build followed from a Daredevil build, where Daredevil was dropped in favour of DA because DA did more damage. And of course it was absent for 5 years, Shadow Arts used to be a defensive traitline after all. Which meant no one ever picked it. But after it was changed to a damage traitline, it replaced DA originally, before people figured out "hey, DA also adds more damage than Daredevil, so lets just drop Daredevil". But then DA was nerfed hard, and people went back to Daredevil. Mind you, when the patch that obliterated DA dropped, Sindrener explained why DD D/P is now recommended over DA D/P, and he specifically said its because DA was nerfed so much it just does less damage. Dash is just gravy.

  • Dantheman.3589Dantheman.3589 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:
    I think thief damage is fairly busted. The dp build is almost entirely specced for mobility, stealth and sustain- granted it uses berserker amulet but it still hits insanely hard granted what it’s specced for. It can get by just spamming backstabs and heartseekers etc which I’ve seen hit like 6-7k per at times. It’s not 100% necessary as some suggest, but it might as well be since it has no boundaries due to mobility and stealth and has instant high impact and also insanely high passive impact due to the idea that “o they can stealth for 10s and get across the map in that time”.

    Its specced almost entirely for damage. You pick Daredevil because its the traitline that gives the most damage (after DA, the traitline previously picked over it, was nerfed hard). You pick SA because its the most reliable damage (it does basically nothing for your sustain, especially now that people are using hidden thief). And you pick Trickery because its mandatory (though it also gives a lot of damage). And ontop of that it runs Berserkers amulet.

    And for how all-in it goes on damage, it hits pretty poor. Backstabs on a squishy class hit for 5k. If the enemy has any toughness, it hits for less. Heartseeker can hit for 5.5k on a squishy class at <25%, less on toughness again. Thats very little. I do close to that damage on core engineer just using grenades. While actually picking an entire traitline purely for defense (Id hit harder if I used Firearms, but core engineer cant run away with ease, so I cant exactly lower my survivability to as low as thieves).

    Shadow arts is and has been a defensive trait line since gw1 are u such an online miracle that you can change the definition of the trait lines since before the game was created? I think not, there are some damage modifiers but the #1 reason for these lines are mobility(DrD) intiative(trickery) and stealth(shadow arts). None of these traitlines are specifically taken to improve damage it’s just in the long run they add some, mostly from modifiers though that are not even close to 100% guaranteed to be present.

    Shadow arts was a defensive traitline. Keyword WAS. While it was a defensive traitline, it was largely unpicked. Then a while back they changed it around a bit, and now its not used as a defensive traitline. In fact, the reason its picked now is because of shadow siphoning, leeching venoms and Rending Shade. 3 traits with no real defensive value. In fact, lets look beyond that. The remaining 3 traits are the 2 minor traits (stealth when using healing skill. Redundant since HiS is used anyway. Provides no defense. Increased stealth duration from skills. Also pointless, no defense.) And Hidden Thief, which gives Stealth on steal (used for quick backstabs) and cd reduction. So tell me, where in this pile of traits do you see any defense. Its used as a damage traitline with minor utility.

    Daredevil is picked 100% for damage, dash is just gravy. Remember, it wasnt so long ago that the meta thief build was DA/SA/Trickery. The only reason Daredevil was picked again over DA was because DAs damage was hard nerfed, and now Daredevil gives more damage. If Daredevil was picked for mobility, why was it ignored in favour of DA? And Trickery is the only one that isnt picked for damage. Its picked because its mandatory for initiative. But even so it provides a decent chunk of damage. In order, the #1 reason to pick these traitlines is damage (Shadow Arts), damage (Daredevil) and initiative with a bit of damage (Trickery). Its more damage-focused than most classes.

    Daredevil is taken for mobility and shadow arts for stealth. Comparing to an old build is well redundant since that build was used for like a month and basically absent for like 5 years. Shadow arts is still by definition a defensive traitline. It has options of stealth or defensive traits and then life shipon which is still fairly defensive. Only offensive one is basically rending shade which isn’t always picked so yeah no.

    You cant just repeat a wrong thing until it turns true. It will stay false. Shadow Arts is not taken for defense, or stealth, its taken for damage. Why do you think it went unpicked entirely (Even while providing boosts to stealth) all the way up until they added leeching venoms and shadow siphoning? In fact, lets take a closer look, shall we? It does actually have a few defensive traits. Shadow's Embrace. No longer picked. Flickering Shadows, not picked (despite being a 33% damage reduction while revealed). Shadow Saviour, not picked. Instead, its only picked for traits that have no defensive value and are purely offensive. Like the siphon traits (that you only proc when you engage a fight 95% of the time, and as such the healing goes to waste). Shadow Siphoning is an offensive trait. Leeching Venoms is the only offensive trait in a slot that has 2 defensive traits, and its picked 100% of the time. Rending Shade is offensive and picked 90+% of the time. Hidden thief is offensive and used 90+% of the time.

    I dont know how I can simplify it further for you, but the simple fact is that its purely taken as a damage traitline. Oh and as for the "oh its picked for stealth thing", D/Ps primary stealth source is black powder + heartseeker, which doesnt benefit from SA. Meld with Shadows theoretically would, but you already have swiftness. The stealth on heal does nothing, since your heal stealths anyway (And you only use your heal in combat, where you want to drop stealth ASAP, so the duration does nothing). The increased stealth from skills does nothing for similar reasons.

    As for Daredevil my point still stands. Of course I can compare it to the build that immediately preceded it. Especially because that build followed from a Daredevil build, where Daredevil was dropped in favour of DA because DA did more damage. And of course it was absent for 5 years, Shadow Arts used to be a defensive traitline after all. Which meant no one ever picked it. But after it was changed to a damage traitline, it replaced DA originally, before people figured out "hey, DA also adds more damage than Daredevil, so lets just drop Daredevil". But then DA was nerfed hard, and people went back to Daredevil. Mind you, when the patch that obliterated DA dropped, Sindrener explained why DD D/P is now recommended over DA D/P, and he specifically said its because DA was nerfed so much it just does less damage. Dash is just gravy.

    You didn’t simplify anything just make it more complicated by mixing stuff up from over the course of many years. And no daredevil isn’t taken for more damage it’s taken becuz the additional mobility is very worth the trade off of slightly higher damage and yeah I’ve seen sinderners argument he said even if you took DA it would only ever be slightly more damage. The additional stealth and mobility are just so huge on this build that the trade offs are barely present and the damage like wise is good enough without these things as well as being incredibly simple and effective with all the stealth and mobility on top.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 6, 2020

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    @Trevor Boyer.6524

    Ben P- “GW2 PvP is essentially a team mode”.

    Keyword there bud, is "essentially"

    Conquest is a 5v5 team mode where things like 1/3/1 splits are happening around the map at all times during a match.

    The keywords of Ben’s statement are “team mode”.

    Honestly, what are you expecting the devs to do for balance? Review each weapon skill, slot skill, trait, and class mechanic for 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, 5v5, 5 person pve modes, 10 person pve modes, open world pve modes, and XvXvX wvw mode? How would those balance notes work when the fundamental design of GW2 is as a team based game?

    Q: What am I expecting the balance team to do for balance?
    A: Balance the game.

    Dude no one said it wasn't a team mode. Knock it off with that.

  • Shiyo.3578Shiyo.3578 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 6, 2020

    @Dantheman.3589 said:
    I think thief damage is fairly busted. The dp build is almost entirely specced for mobility, stealth and sustain- granted it uses berserker amulet but it still hits insanely hard granted what it’s specced for. It can get by just spamming backstabs and heartseekers etc which I’ve seen hit like 6-7k per at times. It’s not 100% necessary as some suggest, but it might as well be since it has no boundaries due to mobility and stealth and has instant high impact and also insanely high passive impact due to the idea that “o they can stealth for 10s and get across the map in that time”.

    Yes, thief damage is a huge problem. The fact they can run zerker and still have 15k hp due to daredevil is one of the issues.

    UNOwen I recommend you play other classes for a few months so you can get a better perspective on why people(including top players) think thief is the best class in the game next to holo.

  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 6, 2020

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    Remove sb 5 on thief, see how awesome it still is. U go on a out how broken thief is yet if u remove sb5 its basically in same position as mesmer, except mesmers gank outa stealthis 16k not 7k like a booned up power thief's burst. Yeah mesmers get countered by thief but thief has its counters as well, most classes do. Thief is taken every match because its mobility lends greatly to the cap/decap mechanic in conquest, if it was purely combat based thief would drop tiers fast. All mesmer needs is it portal back.

    People would switch to rifle as secondary weaponset and spam 4 for fast travel. As long as there exists a not too trashy deadeye build for the +1 and decap role, a removal of sb5 would not change anything for thief.

    I guarantee you that for all the silver gold division players this would be even worse than what we have now because the deadeye build has a much higher damage potential and still superior disengage capability. Such a meta is just held back because no one has to adapt to it currently because shortbow is more braindead to use.

    The game is full of really strong things most of the community is not aware of because 99% of the players just copy paste matabattle and godsofpvp. Sindrener has shown several times how builds that everyone calls trash become meta over night.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 6, 2020

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:
    I think thief damage is fairly busted. The dp build is almost entirely specced for mobility, stealth and sustain- granted it uses berserker amulet but it still hits insanely hard granted what it’s specced for. It can get by just spamming backstabs and heartseekers etc which I’ve seen hit like 6-7k per at times. It’s not 100% necessary as some suggest, but it might as well be since it has no boundaries due to mobility and stealth and has instant high impact and also insanely high passive impact due to the idea that “o they can stealth for 10s and get across the map in that time”.

    Its specced almost entirely for damage. You pick Daredevil because its the traitline that gives the most damage (after DA, the traitline previously picked over it, was nerfed hard). You pick SA because its the most reliable damage (it does basically nothing for your sustain, especially now that people are using hidden thief). And you pick Trickery because its mandatory (though it also gives a lot of damage). And ontop of that it runs Berserkers amulet.

    And for how all-in it goes on damage, it hits pretty poor. Backstabs on a squishy class hit for 5k. If the enemy has any toughness, it hits for less. Heartseeker can hit for 5.5k on a squishy class at <25%, less on toughness again. Thats very little. I do close to that damage on core engineer just using grenades. While actually picking an entire traitline purely for defense (Id hit harder if I used Firearms, but core engineer cant run away with ease, so I cant exactly lower my survivability to as low as thieves).

    Shadow arts is and has been a defensive trait line since gw1 are u such an online miracle that you can change the definition of the trait lines since before the game was created? I think not, there are some damage modifiers but the #1 reason for these lines are mobility(DrD) intiative(trickery) and stealth(shadow arts). None of these traitlines are specifically taken to improve damage it’s just in the long run they add some, mostly from modifiers though that are not even close to 100% guaranteed to be present.

    Shadow arts was a defensive traitline. Keyword WAS. While it was a defensive traitline, it was largely unpicked. Then a while back they changed it around a bit, and now its not used as a defensive traitline. In fact, the reason its picked now is because of shadow siphoning, leeching venoms and Rending Shade. 3 traits with no real defensive value. In fact, lets look beyond that. The remaining 3 traits are the 2 minor traits (stealth when using healing skill. Redundant since HiS is used anyway. Provides no defense. Increased stealth duration from skills. Also pointless, no defense.) And Hidden Thief, which gives Stealth on steal (used for quick backstabs) and cd reduction. So tell me, where in this pile of traits do you see any defense. Its used as a damage traitline with minor utility.

    Daredevil is picked 100% for damage, dash is just gravy. Remember, it wasnt so long ago that the meta thief build was DA/SA/Trickery. The only reason Daredevil was picked again over DA was because DAs damage was hard nerfed, and now Daredevil gives more damage. If Daredevil was picked for mobility, why was it ignored in favour of DA? And Trickery is the only one that isnt picked for damage. Its picked because its mandatory for initiative. But even so it provides a decent chunk of damage. In order, the #1 reason to pick these traitlines is damage (Shadow Arts), damage (Daredevil) and initiative with a bit of damage (Trickery). Its more damage-focused than most classes.

    Daredevil is taken for mobility and shadow arts for stealth. Comparing to an old build is well redundant since that build was used for like a month and basically absent for like 5 years. Shadow arts is still by definition a defensive traitline. It has options of stealth or defensive traits and then life shipon which is still fairly defensive. Only offensive one is basically rending shade which isn’t always picked so yeah no.

    You cant just repeat a wrong thing until it turns true. It will stay false. Shadow Arts is not taken for defense, or stealth, its taken for damage. Why do you think it went unpicked entirely (Even while providing boosts to stealth) all the way up until they added leeching venoms and shadow siphoning? In fact, lets take a closer look, shall we? It does actually have a few defensive traits. Shadow's Embrace. No longer picked. Flickering Shadows, not picked (despite being a 33% damage reduction while revealed). Shadow Saviour, not picked. Instead, its only picked for traits that have no defensive value and are purely offensive. Like the siphon traits (that you only proc when you engage a fight 95% of the time, and as such the healing goes to waste). Shadow Siphoning is an offensive trait. Leeching Venoms is the only offensive trait in a slot that has 2 defensive traits, and its picked 100% of the time. Rending Shade is offensive and picked 90+% of the time. Hidden thief is offensive and used 90+% of the time.

    I dont know how I can simplify it further for you, but the simple fact is that its purely taken as a damage traitline. Oh and as for the "oh its picked for stealth thing", D/Ps primary stealth source is black powder + heartseeker, which doesnt benefit from SA. Meld with Shadows theoretically would, but you already have swiftness. The stealth on heal does nothing, since your heal stealths anyway (And you only use your heal in combat, where you want to drop stealth ASAP, so the duration does nothing). The increased stealth from skills does nothing for similar reasons.

    As for Daredevil my point still stands. Of course I can compare it to the build that immediately preceded it. Especially because that build followed from a Daredevil build, where Daredevil was dropped in favour of DA because DA did more damage. And of course it was absent for 5 years, Shadow Arts used to be a defensive traitline after all. Which meant no one ever picked it. But after it was changed to a damage traitline, it replaced DA originally, before people figured out "hey, DA also adds more damage than Daredevil, so lets just drop Daredevil". But then DA was nerfed hard, and people went back to Daredevil. Mind you, when the patch that obliterated DA dropped, Sindrener explained why DD D/P is now recommended over DA D/P, and he specifically said its because DA was nerfed so much it just does less damage. Dash is just gravy.

    You didn’t simplify anything just make it more complicated by mixing stuff up from over the course of many years. And no daredevil isn’t taken for more damage it’s taken becuz the additional mobility is very worth the trade off of slightly higher damage and yeah I’ve seen sinderners argument he said even if you took DA it would only ever be slightly more damage. The additional stealth and mobility are just so huge on this build that the trade offs are barely present and the damage like wise is good enough without these things as well as being incredibly simple and effective with all the stealth and mobility on top.

    Please dont try to evade answering my question. So tell me once again. Which part of SA is supposed to be defensive? Why was it only picked after its defensive capabilities were nerfed, and it instead got several offensive traits added? Why is it that only the offensive traits get picked instead of defensive alternatives in the same slot? Go ahead, answer it.

    No, Daredevil is taken because its more damage than DA. There is no trade-off, DA just adds less damage because it was nerfed. Thats why when DA did provide more damage, you picked it over Daredevil. Because the additional mobility of dash is pretty minor considering you have shortbow 5. There is no additional stealth. Full stop. You could make hidden thief and concealing restoration both do nothing for stealth, and people would still pick SA 100% of the time, because those traits are irrelevant as they are. You pick SA for damage.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shiyo.3578 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:
    I think thief damage is fairly busted. The dp build is almost entirely specced for mobility, stealth and sustain- granted it uses berserker amulet but it still hits insanely hard granted what it’s specced for. It can get by just spamming backstabs and heartseekers etc which I’ve seen hit like 6-7k per at times. It’s not 100% necessary as some suggest, but it might as well be since it has no boundaries due to mobility and stealth and has instant high impact and also insanely high passive impact due to the idea that “o they can stealth for 10s and get across the map in that time”.

    Yes, thief damage is a huge problem. The fact they can run zerker and still have 15k hp due to daredevil is one of the issues.

    Its not, its quite low.

    UNOwen I recommend you play other classes for a few months so you can get a better perspective on why people(including top players) think thief is the best class in the game next to holo.

    I have been playing core Engineer and only core engineer for about a year now. I know why thief is good, but its the same thing its always been. Thief is not "the best class next to holo" (especially because Scrapper is arguably better than Holo as is). Thief is a mandatory 1-of due to its superior mobility that makes up for its inferior everything else. But you never want more than one thief on your team, else you will lose. Does that sound like a best class to you?

    The truth is that Thieves damage is pretty pathetic. Its enough to win +1s, but you need very little to win +1s. If you compared it to any other roamer, every single one blows thief out of the water. Same with defense, same with CC, same with utility. But it doesnt matter because Thief gets to the +1s fast than anyone else. Thats also why, if you took away shortbow 5, thief would instantly become unplayable. Because suddenly thief doesnt get to them faster than anyone else. And then its inferior everything else just makes it trash tier.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @KrHome.1920 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    Remove sb 5 on thief, see how awesome it still is. U go on a out how broken thief is yet if u remove sb5 its basically in same position as mesmer, except mesmers gank outa stealthis 16k not 7k like a booned up power thief's burst. Yeah mesmers get countered by thief but thief has its counters as well, most classes do. Thief is taken every match because its mobility lends greatly to the cap/decap mechanic in conquest, if it was purely combat based thief would drop tiers fast. All mesmer needs is it portal back.

    People would switch to rifle as secondary weaponset and spam 4 for fast travel. As long as there exists a not too trashy deadeye build for the +1 and decap role, a removal of sb5 would not change anything for thief.

    They wouldnt. Ignoring how janky Deaths Retreat is, its also just not faster than what other classes can bring. Suddenly thief would not be the fastest, and the fact that theyre the weakest would kill the class.

    I guarantee you that for all the silver gold division players this would be even worse than what we have now because the deadeye build has a much higher damage potential and still superior disengage capability. Such a meta is just held back because no one has to adapt to it currently because shortbow is more braindead to use.

    Much higher damage potential than "very little damage" doesnt mean much. And disengage capability is inferior, because shortbow 5 is thieves disengage cpability.