Intra-Class Balance Dynamic - My Perspectives - Things I'd Like To See Happen - 8/29/2020 - Page 3 — Guild Wars 2 Forums
Home PVP

Intra-Class Balance Dynamic - My Perspectives - Things I'd Like To See Happen - 8/29/2020

13

Comments

  • Dantheman.3589Dantheman.3589 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Shiyo.3578 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:
    I think thief damage is fairly busted. The dp build is almost entirely specced for mobility, stealth and sustain- granted it uses berserker amulet but it still hits insanely hard granted what it’s specced for. It can get by just spamming backstabs and heartseekers etc which I’ve seen hit like 6-7k per at times. It’s not 100% necessary as some suggest, but it might as well be since it has no boundaries due to mobility and stealth and has instant high impact and also insanely high passive impact due to the idea that “o they can stealth for 10s and get across the map in that time”.

    Yes, thief damage is a huge problem. The fact they can run zerker and still have 15k hp due to daredevil is one of the issues.

    Its not, its quite low.

    UNOwen I recommend you play other classes for a few months so you can get a better perspective on why people(including top players) think thief is the best class in the game next to holo.

    I have been playing core Engineer and only core engineer for about a year now. I know why thief is good, but its the same thing its always been. Thief is not "the best class next to holo" (especially because Scrapper is arguably better than Holo as is). Thief is a mandatory 1-of due to its superior mobility that makes up for its inferior everything else. But you never want more than one thief on your team, else you will lose. Does that sound like a best class to you?

    The truth is that Thieves damage is pretty pathetic. Its enough to win +1s, but you need very little to win +1s. If you compared it to any other roamer, every single one blows thief out of the water. Same with defense, same with CC, same with utility. But it doesnt matter because Thief gets to the +1s fast than anyone else. Thats also why, if you took away shortbow 5, thief would instantly become unplayable. Because suddenly thief doesnt get to them faster than anyone else. And then its inferior everything else just makes it trash tier.

    Is that why legendary rated streamers have been calling thief “the most busted ranked carry next to holo”. This obsession over shortbow 5 is incredibly bizarre too, but u also think thief’s team fight with short bow and swap to dp to decap.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:
    I think thief damage is fairly busted. The dp build is almost entirely specced for mobility, stealth and sustain- granted it uses berserker amulet but it still hits insanely hard granted what it’s specced for. It can get by just spamming backstabs and heartseekers etc which I’ve seen hit like 6-7k per at times. It’s not 100% necessary as some suggest, but it might as well be since it has no boundaries due to mobility and stealth and has instant high impact and also insanely high passive impact due to the idea that “o they can stealth for 10s and get across the map in that time”.

    Its specced almost entirely for damage. You pick Daredevil because its the traitline that gives the most damage (after DA, the traitline previously picked over it, was nerfed hard). You pick SA because its the most reliable damage (it does basically nothing for your sustain, especially now that people are using hidden thief). And you pick Trickery because its mandatory (though it also gives a lot of damage). And ontop of that it runs Berserkers amulet.

    And for how all-in it goes on damage, it hits pretty poor. Backstabs on a squishy class hit for 5k. If the enemy has any toughness, it hits for less. Heartseeker can hit for 5.5k on a squishy class at <25%, less on toughness again. Thats very little. I do close to that damage on core engineer just using grenades. While actually picking an entire traitline purely for defense (Id hit harder if I used Firearms, but core engineer cant run away with ease, so I cant exactly lower my survivability to as low as thieves).

    Shadow arts is and has been a defensive trait line since gw1 are u such an online miracle that you can change the definition of the trait lines since before the game was created? I think not, there are some damage modifiers but the #1 reason for these lines are mobility(DrD) intiative(trickery) and stealth(shadow arts). None of these traitlines are specifically taken to improve damage it’s just in the long run they add some, mostly from modifiers though that are not even close to 100% guaranteed to be present.

    Shadow arts was a defensive traitline. Keyword WAS. While it was a defensive traitline, it was largely unpicked. Then a while back they changed it around a bit, and now its not used as a defensive traitline. In fact, the reason its picked now is because of shadow siphoning, leeching venoms and Rending Shade. 3 traits with no real defensive value. In fact, lets look beyond that. The remaining 3 traits are the 2 minor traits (stealth when using healing skill. Redundant since HiS is used anyway. Provides no defense. Increased stealth duration from skills. Also pointless, no defense.) And Hidden Thief, which gives Stealth on steal (used for quick backstabs) and cd reduction. So tell me, where in this pile of traits do you see any defense. Its used as a damage traitline with minor utility.

    Daredevil is picked 100% for damage, dash is just gravy. Remember, it wasnt so long ago that the meta thief build was DA/SA/Trickery. The only reason Daredevil was picked again over DA was because DAs damage was hard nerfed, and now Daredevil gives more damage. If Daredevil was picked for mobility, why was it ignored in favour of DA? And Trickery is the only one that isnt picked for damage. Its picked because its mandatory for initiative. But even so it provides a decent chunk of damage. In order, the #1 reason to pick these traitlines is damage (Shadow Arts), damage (Daredevil) and initiative with a bit of damage (Trickery). Its more damage-focused than most classes.

    Daredevil is taken for mobility and shadow arts for stealth. Comparing to an old build is well redundant since that build was used for like a month and basically absent for like 5 years. Shadow arts is still by definition a defensive traitline. It has options of stealth or defensive traits and then life shipon which is still fairly defensive. Only offensive one is basically rending shade which isn’t always picked so yeah no.

    You cant just repeat a wrong thing until it turns true. It will stay false. Shadow Arts is not taken for defense, or stealth, its taken for damage. Why do you think it went unpicked entirely (Even while providing boosts to stealth) all the way up until they added leeching venoms and shadow siphoning? In fact, lets take a closer look, shall we? It does actually have a few defensive traits. Shadow's Embrace. No longer picked. Flickering Shadows, not picked (despite being a 33% damage reduction while revealed). Shadow Saviour, not picked. Instead, its only picked for traits that have no defensive value and are purely offensive. Like the siphon traits (that you only proc when you engage a fight 95% of the time, and as such the healing goes to waste). Shadow Siphoning is an offensive trait. Leeching Venoms is the only offensive trait in a slot that has 2 defensive traits, and its picked 100% of the time. Rending Shade is offensive and picked 90+% of the time. Hidden thief is offensive and used 90+% of the time.

    I dont know how I can simplify it further for you, but the simple fact is that its purely taken as a damage traitline. Oh and as for the "oh its picked for stealth thing", D/Ps primary stealth source is black powder + heartseeker, which doesnt benefit from SA. Meld with Shadows theoretically would, but you already have swiftness. The stealth on heal does nothing, since your heal stealths anyway (And you only use your heal in combat, where you want to drop stealth ASAP, so the duration does nothing). The increased stealth from skills does nothing for similar reasons.

    As for Daredevil my point still stands. Of course I can compare it to the build that immediately preceded it. Especially because that build followed from a Daredevil build, where Daredevil was dropped in favour of DA because DA did more damage. And of course it was absent for 5 years, Shadow Arts used to be a defensive traitline after all. Which meant no one ever picked it. But after it was changed to a damage traitline, it replaced DA originally, before people figured out "hey, DA also adds more damage than Daredevil, so lets just drop Daredevil". But then DA was nerfed hard, and people went back to Daredevil. Mind you, when the patch that obliterated DA dropped, Sindrener explained why DD D/P is now recommended over DA D/P, and he specifically said its because DA was nerfed so much it just does less damage. Dash is just gravy.

    You didn’t simplify anything just make it more complicated by mixing stuff up from over the course of many years. And no daredevil isn’t taken for more damage it’s taken becuz the additional mobility is very worth the trade off of slightly higher damage and yeah I’ve seen sinderners argument he said even if you took DA it would only ever be slightly more damage. The additional stealth and mobility are just so huge on this build that the trade offs are barely present and the damage like wise is good enough without these things as well as being incredibly simple and effective with all the stealth and mobility on top.

    Please dont try to evade answering my question. So tell me once again. Which part of SA is supposed to be defensive? Why was it only picked after its defensive capabilities were nerfed, and it instead got several offensive traits added? Why is it that only the offensive traits get picked instead of defensive alternatives in the same slot? Go ahead, answer it.

    No, Daredevil is taken because its more damage than DA. There is no trade-off, DA just adds less damage because it was nerfed. Thats why when DA did provide more damage, you picked it over Daredevil. Because the additional mobility of dash is pretty minor considering you have shortbow 5. There is no additional stealth. Full stop. You could make hidden thief and concealing restoration both do nothing for stealth, and people would still pick SA 100% of the time, because those traits are irrelevant as they are. You pick SA for damage.

    No ones going to answer your question. It’s not the point of a forum. I know you think calling ppl out with your gold facts is cool, but I see no need since this isn’t a thread for that. Feel free to disagree with the op though

    I will give him answer for you :D

    @UNOwen.7132
    1 Concealing restoration -> 2s stealth on healing skill use
    2 Hidden thief -> stealing grants stealth ( 3s ), deception skills reduced recharge -> that includes ( healing skill for stealth/healing, shadowstep for condi cleanse, 2x stunbreake and mobility along with BP for another Stunbreake and stealth )
    3 meld with shadows -> movespeed in stealth
    4 Spider venom -> steal hp 650 each time you stealth
    5 Shadow siphoning -> another 500 siphon from stealth
    6 Boonrip and fear.
    Legit every single trait gives mobility or utility or healing. You pretend its take for the damage since siphons hit for 1k out of stealth every time, its chip damage that adds up but SA is made for utility.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:
    I think thief damage is fairly busted. The dp build is almost entirely specced for mobility, stealth and sustain- granted it uses berserker amulet but it still hits insanely hard granted what it’s specced for. It can get by just spamming backstabs and heartseekers etc which I’ve seen hit like 6-7k per at times. It’s not 100% necessary as some suggest, but it might as well be since it has no boundaries due to mobility and stealth and has instant high impact and also insanely high passive impact due to the idea that “o they can stealth for 10s and get across the map in that time”.

    Its specced almost entirely for damage. You pick Daredevil because its the traitline that gives the most damage (after DA, the traitline previously picked over it, was nerfed hard). You pick SA because its the most reliable damage (it does basically nothing for your sustain, especially now that people are using hidden thief). And you pick Trickery because its mandatory (though it also gives a lot of damage). And ontop of that it runs Berserkers amulet.

    And for how all-in it goes on damage, it hits pretty poor. Backstabs on a squishy class hit for 5k. If the enemy has any toughness, it hits for less. Heartseeker can hit for 5.5k on a squishy class at <25%, less on toughness again. Thats very little. I do close to that damage on core engineer just using grenades. While actually picking an entire traitline purely for defense (Id hit harder if I used Firearms, but core engineer cant run away with ease, so I cant exactly lower my survivability to as low as thieves).

    Shadow arts is and has been a defensive trait line since gw1 are u such an online miracle that you can change the definition of the trait lines since before the game was created? I think not, there are some damage modifiers but the #1 reason for these lines are mobility(DrD) intiative(trickery) and stealth(shadow arts). None of these traitlines are specifically taken to improve damage it’s just in the long run they add some, mostly from modifiers though that are not even close to 100% guaranteed to be present.

    Shadow arts was a defensive traitline. Keyword WAS. While it was a defensive traitline, it was largely unpicked. Then a while back they changed it around a bit, and now its not used as a defensive traitline. In fact, the reason its picked now is because of shadow siphoning, leeching venoms and Rending Shade. 3 traits with no real defensive value. In fact, lets look beyond that. The remaining 3 traits are the 2 minor traits (stealth when using healing skill. Redundant since HiS is used anyway. Provides no defense. Increased stealth duration from skills. Also pointless, no defense.) And Hidden Thief, which gives Stealth on steal (used for quick backstabs) and cd reduction. So tell me, where in this pile of traits do you see any defense. Its used as a damage traitline with minor utility.

    Daredevil is picked 100% for damage, dash is just gravy. Remember, it wasnt so long ago that the meta thief build was DA/SA/Trickery. The only reason Daredevil was picked again over DA was because DAs damage was hard nerfed, and now Daredevil gives more damage. If Daredevil was picked for mobility, why was it ignored in favour of DA? And Trickery is the only one that isnt picked for damage. Its picked because its mandatory for initiative. But even so it provides a decent chunk of damage. In order, the #1 reason to pick these traitlines is damage (Shadow Arts), damage (Daredevil) and initiative with a bit of damage (Trickery). Its more damage-focused than most classes.

    Daredevil is taken for mobility and shadow arts for stealth. Comparing to an old build is well redundant since that build was used for like a month and basically absent for like 5 years. Shadow arts is still by definition a defensive traitline. It has options of stealth or defensive traits and then life shipon which is still fairly defensive. Only offensive one is basically rending shade which isn’t always picked so yeah no.

    You cant just repeat a wrong thing until it turns true. It will stay false. Shadow Arts is not taken for defense, or stealth, its taken for damage. Why do you think it went unpicked entirely (Even while providing boosts to stealth) all the way up until they added leeching venoms and shadow siphoning? In fact, lets take a closer look, shall we? It does actually have a few defensive traits. Shadow's Embrace. No longer picked. Flickering Shadows, not picked (despite being a 33% damage reduction while revealed). Shadow Saviour, not picked. Instead, its only picked for traits that have no defensive value and are purely offensive. Like the siphon traits (that you only proc when you engage a fight 95% of the time, and as such the healing goes to waste). Shadow Siphoning is an offensive trait. Leeching Venoms is the only offensive trait in a slot that has 2 defensive traits, and its picked 100% of the time. Rending Shade is offensive and picked 90+% of the time. Hidden thief is offensive and used 90+% of the time.

    I dont know how I can simplify it further for you, but the simple fact is that its purely taken as a damage traitline. Oh and as for the "oh its picked for stealth thing", D/Ps primary stealth source is black powder + heartseeker, which doesnt benefit from SA. Meld with Shadows theoretically would, but you already have swiftness. The stealth on heal does nothing, since your heal stealths anyway (And you only use your heal in combat, where you want to drop stealth ASAP, so the duration does nothing). The increased stealth from skills does nothing for similar reasons.

    As for Daredevil my point still stands. Of course I can compare it to the build that immediately preceded it. Especially because that build followed from a Daredevil build, where Daredevil was dropped in favour of DA because DA did more damage. And of course it was absent for 5 years, Shadow Arts used to be a defensive traitline after all. Which meant no one ever picked it. But after it was changed to a damage traitline, it replaced DA originally, before people figured out "hey, DA also adds more damage than Daredevil, so lets just drop Daredevil". But then DA was nerfed hard, and people went back to Daredevil. Mind you, when the patch that obliterated DA dropped, Sindrener explained why DD D/P is now recommended over DA D/P, and he specifically said its because DA was nerfed so much it just does less damage. Dash is just gravy.

    You didn’t simplify anything just make it more complicated by mixing stuff up from over the course of many years. And no daredevil isn’t taken for more damage it’s taken becuz the additional mobility is very worth the trade off of slightly higher damage and yeah I’ve seen sinderners argument he said even if you took DA it would only ever be slightly more damage. The additional stealth and mobility are just so huge on this build that the trade offs are barely present and the damage like wise is good enough without these things as well as being incredibly simple and effective with all the stealth and mobility on top.

    Please dont try to evade answering my question. So tell me once again. Which part of SA is supposed to be defensive? Why was it only picked after its defensive capabilities were nerfed, and it instead got several offensive traits added? Why is it that only the offensive traits get picked instead of defensive alternatives in the same slot? Go ahead, answer it.

    No, Daredevil is taken because its more damage than DA. There is no trade-off, DA just adds less damage because it was nerfed. Thats why when DA did provide more damage, you picked it over Daredevil. Because the additional mobility of dash is pretty minor considering you have shortbow 5. There is no additional stealth. Full stop. You could make hidden thief and concealing restoration both do nothing for stealth, and people would still pick SA 100% of the time, because those traits are irrelevant as they are. You pick SA for damage.

    No ones going to answer your question. It’s not the point of a forum. I know you think calling ppl out with your gold facts is cool, but I see no need since this isn’t a thread for that. Feel free to disagree with the op though

    Oh no I have already answered the question. But I know why you wont. Because you cant. Youd have to admit its purely picked for damage, which you clearly dont want to.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 6, 2020

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:
    I think thief damage is fairly busted. The dp build is almost entirely specced for mobility, stealth and sustain- granted it uses berserker amulet but it still hits insanely hard granted what it’s specced for. It can get by just spamming backstabs and heartseekers etc which I’ve seen hit like 6-7k per at times. It’s not 100% necessary as some suggest, but it might as well be since it has no boundaries due to mobility and stealth and has instant high impact and also insanely high passive impact due to the idea that “o they can stealth for 10s and get across the map in that time”.

    Its specced almost entirely for damage. You pick Daredevil because its the traitline that gives the most damage (after DA, the traitline previously picked over it, was nerfed hard). You pick SA because its the most reliable damage (it does basically nothing for your sustain, especially now that people are using hidden thief). And you pick Trickery because its mandatory (though it also gives a lot of damage). And ontop of that it runs Berserkers amulet.

    And for how all-in it goes on damage, it hits pretty poor. Backstabs on a squishy class hit for 5k. If the enemy has any toughness, it hits for less. Heartseeker can hit for 5.5k on a squishy class at <25%, less on toughness again. Thats very little. I do close to that damage on core engineer just using grenades. While actually picking an entire traitline purely for defense (Id hit harder if I used Firearms, but core engineer cant run away with ease, so I cant exactly lower my survivability to as low as thieves).

    Shadow arts is and has been a defensive trait line since gw1 are u such an online miracle that you can change the definition of the trait lines since before the game was created? I think not, there are some damage modifiers but the #1 reason for these lines are mobility(DrD) intiative(trickery) and stealth(shadow arts). None of these traitlines are specifically taken to improve damage it’s just in the long run they add some, mostly from modifiers though that are not even close to 100% guaranteed to be present.

    Shadow arts was a defensive traitline. Keyword WAS. While it was a defensive traitline, it was largely unpicked. Then a while back they changed it around a bit, and now its not used as a defensive traitline. In fact, the reason its picked now is because of shadow siphoning, leeching venoms and Rending Shade. 3 traits with no real defensive value. In fact, lets look beyond that. The remaining 3 traits are the 2 minor traits (stealth when using healing skill. Redundant since HiS is used anyway. Provides no defense. Increased stealth duration from skills. Also pointless, no defense.) And Hidden Thief, which gives Stealth on steal (used for quick backstabs) and cd reduction. So tell me, where in this pile of traits do you see any defense. Its used as a damage traitline with minor utility.

    Daredevil is picked 100% for damage, dash is just gravy. Remember, it wasnt so long ago that the meta thief build was DA/SA/Trickery. The only reason Daredevil was picked again over DA was because DAs damage was hard nerfed, and now Daredevil gives more damage. If Daredevil was picked for mobility, why was it ignored in favour of DA? And Trickery is the only one that isnt picked for damage. Its picked because its mandatory for initiative. But even so it provides a decent chunk of damage. In order, the #1 reason to pick these traitlines is damage (Shadow Arts), damage (Daredevil) and initiative with a bit of damage (Trickery). Its more damage-focused than most classes.

    Daredevil is taken for mobility and shadow arts for stealth. Comparing to an old build is well redundant since that build was used for like a month and basically absent for like 5 years. Shadow arts is still by definition a defensive traitline. It has options of stealth or defensive traits and then life shipon which is still fairly defensive. Only offensive one is basically rending shade which isn’t always picked so yeah no.

    You cant just repeat a wrong thing until it turns true. It will stay false. Shadow Arts is not taken for defense, or stealth, its taken for damage. Why do you think it went unpicked entirely (Even while providing boosts to stealth) all the way up until they added leeching venoms and shadow siphoning? In fact, lets take a closer look, shall we? It does actually have a few defensive traits. Shadow's Embrace. No longer picked. Flickering Shadows, not picked (despite being a 33% damage reduction while revealed). Shadow Saviour, not picked. Instead, its only picked for traits that have no defensive value and are purely offensive. Like the siphon traits (that you only proc when you engage a fight 95% of the time, and as such the healing goes to waste). Shadow Siphoning is an offensive trait. Leeching Venoms is the only offensive trait in a slot that has 2 defensive traits, and its picked 100% of the time. Rending Shade is offensive and picked 90+% of the time. Hidden thief is offensive and used 90+% of the time.

    I dont know how I can simplify it further for you, but the simple fact is that its purely taken as a damage traitline. Oh and as for the "oh its picked for stealth thing", D/Ps primary stealth source is black powder + heartseeker, which doesnt benefit from SA. Meld with Shadows theoretically would, but you already have swiftness. The stealth on heal does nothing, since your heal stealths anyway (And you only use your heal in combat, where you want to drop stealth ASAP, so the duration does nothing). The increased stealth from skills does nothing for similar reasons.

    As for Daredevil my point still stands. Of course I can compare it to the build that immediately preceded it. Especially because that build followed from a Daredevil build, where Daredevil was dropped in favour of DA because DA did more damage. And of course it was absent for 5 years, Shadow Arts used to be a defensive traitline after all. Which meant no one ever picked it. But after it was changed to a damage traitline, it replaced DA originally, before people figured out "hey, DA also adds more damage than Daredevil, so lets just drop Daredevil". But then DA was nerfed hard, and people went back to Daredevil. Mind you, when the patch that obliterated DA dropped, Sindrener explained why DD D/P is now recommended over DA D/P, and he specifically said its because DA was nerfed so much it just does less damage. Dash is just gravy.

    You didn’t simplify anything just make it more complicated by mixing stuff up from over the course of many years. And no daredevil isn’t taken for more damage it’s taken becuz the additional mobility is very worth the trade off of slightly higher damage and yeah I’ve seen sinderners argument he said even if you took DA it would only ever be slightly more damage. The additional stealth and mobility are just so huge on this build that the trade offs are barely present and the damage like wise is good enough without these things as well as being incredibly simple and effective with all the stealth and mobility on top.

    Please dont try to evade answering my question. So tell me once again. Which part of SA is supposed to be defensive? Why was it only picked after its defensive capabilities were nerfed, and it instead got several offensive traits added? Why is it that only the offensive traits get picked instead of defensive alternatives in the same slot? Go ahead, answer it.

    No, Daredevil is taken because its more damage than DA. There is no trade-off, DA just adds less damage because it was nerfed. Thats why when DA did provide more damage, you picked it over Daredevil. Because the additional mobility of dash is pretty minor considering you have shortbow 5. There is no additional stealth. Full stop. You could make hidden thief and concealing restoration both do nothing for stealth, and people would still pick SA 100% of the time, because those traits are irrelevant as they are. You pick SA for damage.

    No ones going to answer your question. It’s not the point of a forum. I know you think calling ppl out with your gold facts is cool, but I see no need since this isn’t a thread for that. Feel free to disagree with the op though

    I will give him answer for you :D

    @UNOwen.7132
    1 Concealing restoration -> 2s stealth on healing skill use

    1 second. The currently used healing skill is Hide in Shadows. This trait does basically nothing.

    2 Hidden thief -> stealing grants stealth ( 3s ), deception skills reduced recharge -> that includes ( healing skill for stealth/healing, shadowstep for condi cleanse, 2x stunbreake and mobility along with BP for another Stunbreake and stealth )

    Used for quick backstabs mid-combat. The cooldown reaction is nice, but its not really defensive, since you dont use them twice in a single fight.

    3 meld with shadows -> movespeed in stealth

    Pointless since you already max out on swiftness and rarely stealth up while still in combat (And you dont stay in combat for long even if you were still suffering from the reduced speed since those rare situations are when you already disengaged but havent broken the in-combat thing yet).

    4 Spider venom -> steal hp 650 each time you stealth

    At the start of the fight where the healing goes completely to waste. Used exclusively for damage.

    5 Shadow siphoning -> another 500 siphon from stealth

    At the start of the fight where the healing goes completely to waste. Used exclusively for damage.

    6 Boonrip and fear.

    Well, boonrip or fear. Its a utility trait used for offense.

    Legit every single trait gives mobility or utility or healing. You pretend its take for the damage since siphons hit for 1k out of stealth every time, its chip damage that adds up but SA is made for utility.

    And yet, the only traits its picked for are leeching venoms, shadow siphoning and to a lesser degree rending shade. The former 2 are exclusively damage traits, since the healing gets wasted while youre at full hp. SA may conceptually be a utility/defensive traitline, but its picked as a damage traitline with every defensive trait being completely ignored. If you wanted defense, youd use Flickering Shadows, not leeching venoms. And yet, no one ever does. Its a similar concept to Valor for burning guard. Its supposed to be a defensive traitline, and you even pick one defensive trait as burn guard. But you pick the traitline purely for Permeating Wrath. A damage trait.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Shiyo.3578 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:
    I think thief damage is fairly busted. The dp build is almost entirely specced for mobility, stealth and sustain- granted it uses berserker amulet but it still hits insanely hard granted what it’s specced for. It can get by just spamming backstabs and heartseekers etc which I’ve seen hit like 6-7k per at times. It’s not 100% necessary as some suggest, but it might as well be since it has no boundaries due to mobility and stealth and has instant high impact and also insanely high passive impact due to the idea that “o they can stealth for 10s and get across the map in that time”.

    Yes, thief damage is a huge problem. The fact they can run zerker and still have 15k hp due to daredevil is one of the issues.

    Its not, its quite low.

    UNOwen I recommend you play other classes for a few months so you can get a better perspective on why people(including top players) think thief is the best class in the game next to holo.

    I have been playing core Engineer and only core engineer for about a year now. I know why thief is good, but its the same thing its always been. Thief is not "the best class next to holo" (especially because Scrapper is arguably better than Holo as is). Thief is a mandatory 1-of due to its superior mobility that makes up for its inferior everything else. But you never want more than one thief on your team, else you will lose. Does that sound like a best class to you?

    The truth is that Thieves damage is pretty pathetic. Its enough to win +1s, but you need very little to win +1s. If you compared it to any other roamer, every single one blows thief out of the water. Same with defense, same with CC, same with utility. But it doesnt matter because Thief gets to the +1s fast than anyone else. Thats also why, if you took away shortbow 5, thief would instantly become unplayable. Because suddenly thief doesnt get to them faster than anyone else. And then its inferior everything else just makes it trash tier.

    Is that why legendary rated streamers have been calling thief “the most busted ranked carry next to holo”. This obsession over shortbow 5 is incredibly bizarre too, but u also think thief’s team fight with short bow and swap to dp to decap.

    Yes, the obsession with the one weapon skill all theif mains have known for year defines their class and is literally the only reason it functions is "bizarre". Also, why are you just saying a simple truth as if its supposed to mean anything?

  • Dantheman.3589Dantheman.3589 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:
    I think thief damage is fairly busted. The dp build is almost entirely specced for mobility, stealth and sustain- granted it uses berserker amulet but it still hits insanely hard granted what it’s specced for. It can get by just spamming backstabs and heartseekers etc which I’ve seen hit like 6-7k per at times. It’s not 100% necessary as some suggest, but it might as well be since it has no boundaries due to mobility and stealth and has instant high impact and also insanely high passive impact due to the idea that “o they can stealth for 10s and get across the map in that time”.

    Its specced almost entirely for damage. You pick Daredevil because its the traitline that gives the most damage (after DA, the traitline previously picked over it, was nerfed hard). You pick SA because its the most reliable damage (it does basically nothing for your sustain, especially now that people are using hidden thief). And you pick Trickery because its mandatory (though it also gives a lot of damage). And ontop of that it runs Berserkers amulet.

    And for how all-in it goes on damage, it hits pretty poor. Backstabs on a squishy class hit for 5k. If the enemy has any toughness, it hits for less. Heartseeker can hit for 5.5k on a squishy class at <25%, less on toughness again. Thats very little. I do close to that damage on core engineer just using grenades. While actually picking an entire traitline purely for defense (Id hit harder if I used Firearms, but core engineer cant run away with ease, so I cant exactly lower my survivability to as low as thieves).

    Shadow arts is and has been a defensive trait line since gw1 are u such an online miracle that you can change the definition of the trait lines since before the game was created? I think not, there are some damage modifiers but the #1 reason for these lines are mobility(DrD) intiative(trickery) and stealth(shadow arts). None of these traitlines are specifically taken to improve damage it’s just in the long run they add some, mostly from modifiers though that are not even close to 100% guaranteed to be present.

    Shadow arts was a defensive traitline. Keyword WAS. While it was a defensive traitline, it was largely unpicked. Then a while back they changed it around a bit, and now its not used as a defensive traitline. In fact, the reason its picked now is because of shadow siphoning, leeching venoms and Rending Shade. 3 traits with no real defensive value. In fact, lets look beyond that. The remaining 3 traits are the 2 minor traits (stealth when using healing skill. Redundant since HiS is used anyway. Provides no defense. Increased stealth duration from skills. Also pointless, no defense.) And Hidden Thief, which gives Stealth on steal (used for quick backstabs) and cd reduction. So tell me, where in this pile of traits do you see any defense. Its used as a damage traitline with minor utility.

    Daredevil is picked 100% for damage, dash is just gravy. Remember, it wasnt so long ago that the meta thief build was DA/SA/Trickery. The only reason Daredevil was picked again over DA was because DAs damage was hard nerfed, and now Daredevil gives more damage. If Daredevil was picked for mobility, why was it ignored in favour of DA? And Trickery is the only one that isnt picked for damage. Its picked because its mandatory for initiative. But even so it provides a decent chunk of damage. In order, the #1 reason to pick these traitlines is damage (Shadow Arts), damage (Daredevil) and initiative with a bit of damage (Trickery). Its more damage-focused than most classes.

    Daredevil is taken for mobility and shadow arts for stealth. Comparing to an old build is well redundant since that build was used for like a month and basically absent for like 5 years. Shadow arts is still by definition a defensive traitline. It has options of stealth or defensive traits and then life shipon which is still fairly defensive. Only offensive one is basically rending shade which isn’t always picked so yeah no.

    You cant just repeat a wrong thing until it turns true. It will stay false. Shadow Arts is not taken for defense, or stealth, its taken for damage. Why do you think it went unpicked entirely (Even while providing boosts to stealth) all the way up until they added leeching venoms and shadow siphoning? In fact, lets take a closer look, shall we? It does actually have a few defensive traits. Shadow's Embrace. No longer picked. Flickering Shadows, not picked (despite being a 33% damage reduction while revealed). Shadow Saviour, not picked. Instead, its only picked for traits that have no defensive value and are purely offensive. Like the siphon traits (that you only proc when you engage a fight 95% of the time, and as such the healing goes to waste). Shadow Siphoning is an offensive trait. Leeching Venoms is the only offensive trait in a slot that has 2 defensive traits, and its picked 100% of the time. Rending Shade is offensive and picked 90+% of the time. Hidden thief is offensive and used 90+% of the time.

    I dont know how I can simplify it further for you, but the simple fact is that its purely taken as a damage traitline. Oh and as for the "oh its picked for stealth thing", D/Ps primary stealth source is black powder + heartseeker, which doesnt benefit from SA. Meld with Shadows theoretically would, but you already have swiftness. The stealth on heal does nothing, since your heal stealths anyway (And you only use your heal in combat, where you want to drop stealth ASAP, so the duration does nothing). The increased stealth from skills does nothing for similar reasons.

    As for Daredevil my point still stands. Of course I can compare it to the build that immediately preceded it. Especially because that build followed from a Daredevil build, where Daredevil was dropped in favour of DA because DA did more damage. And of course it was absent for 5 years, Shadow Arts used to be a defensive traitline after all. Which meant no one ever picked it. But after it was changed to a damage traitline, it replaced DA originally, before people figured out "hey, DA also adds more damage than Daredevil, so lets just drop Daredevil". But then DA was nerfed hard, and people went back to Daredevil. Mind you, when the patch that obliterated DA dropped, Sindrener explained why DD D/P is now recommended over DA D/P, and he specifically said its because DA was nerfed so much it just does less damage. Dash is just gravy.

    You didn’t simplify anything just make it more complicated by mixing stuff up from over the course of many years. And no daredevil isn’t taken for more damage it’s taken becuz the additional mobility is very worth the trade off of slightly higher damage and yeah I’ve seen sinderners argument he said even if you took DA it would only ever be slightly more damage. The additional stealth and mobility are just so huge on this build that the trade offs are barely present and the damage like wise is good enough without these things as well as being incredibly simple and effective with all the stealth and mobility on top.

    Please dont try to evade answering my question. So tell me once again. Which part of SA is supposed to be defensive? Why was it only picked after its defensive capabilities were nerfed, and it instead got several offensive traits added? Why is it that only the offensive traits get picked instead of defensive alternatives in the same slot? Go ahead, answer it.

    No, Daredevil is taken because its more damage than DA. There is no trade-off, DA just adds less damage because it was nerfed. Thats why when DA did provide more damage, you picked it over Daredevil. Because the additional mobility of dash is pretty minor considering you have shortbow 5. There is no additional stealth. Full stop. You could make hidden thief and concealing restoration both do nothing for stealth, and people would still pick SA 100% of the time, because those traits are irrelevant as they are. You pick SA for damage.

    No ones going to answer your question. It’s not the point of a forum. I know you think calling ppl out with your gold facts is cool, but I see no need since this isn’t a thread for that. Feel free to disagree with the op though

    I will give him answer for you :D

    @UNOwen.7132
    1 Concealing restoration -> 2s stealth on healing skill use

    1 second. The currently used healing skill is Hide in Shadows. This trait does basically nothing.

    2 Hidden thief -> stealing grants stealth ( 3s ), deception skills reduced recharge -> that includes ( healing skill for stealth/healing, shadowstep for condi cleanse, 2x stunbreake and mobility along with BP for another Stunbreake and stealth )

    Used for quick backstabs mid-combat. The cooldown reaction is nice, but its not really defensive, since you dont use them twice in a single fight.

    3 meld with shadows -> movespeed in stealth

    Pointless since you already max out on swiftness and rarely stealth up while still in combat (And you dont stay in combat for long even if you were still suffering from the reduced speed since those rare situations are when you already disengaged but havent broken the in-combat thing yet).

    4 Spider venom -> steal hp 650 each time you stealth

    At the start of the fight where the healing goes completely to waste. Used exclusively for damage.

    5 Shadow siphoning -> another 500 siphon from stealth

    At the start of the fight where the healing goes completely to waste. Used exclusively for damage.

    6 Boonrip and fear.

    Well, boonrip or fear. Its a utility trait used for offense.

    Legit every single trait gives mobility or utility or healing. You pretend its take for the damage since siphons hit for 1k out of stealth every time, its chip damage that adds up but SA is made for utility.

    And yet, the only traits its picked for are leeching venoms, shadow siphoning and to a lesser degree rending shade. The former 2 are exclusively damage traits, since the healing gets wasted while youre at full hp. SA may conceptually be a utility/defensive traitline, but its picked as a damage traitline with every defensive trait being completely ignored. If you wanted defense, youd use Flickering Shadows, not leeching venoms. And yet, no one ever does. Its a similar concept to Valor for burning guard. Its supposed to be a defensive traitline, and you even pick one defensive trait as burn guard. But you pick the traitline purely for Permeating Wrath. A damage trait.

    1. Wrong, it gives a total of 2 becuz the trait that gives +1 sec to all stealth skills 2.) Wrong. It’ll reduce your defensive cds and gives stealth which is defensive. You’ll see streamers like bluri use it all the time for defense or just stealth. 3.) Wrong. It gives more MS than swiftness, which is useful. Again I see players like bluri use stealth all the time just for the MS increase. 4.) Wrong. It gives up to 2 poison stacks. Which is useful to prevent healing and for sustain + damage that wouldn’t be present without the siphon trait since your power 5.) wrong. You even pointed out stealth is mid combat yet this isn’t for sustain? You contradicting yourself. 6.) Yeah. But the other 2 options for grandmaster are still very common and the other most used 1 is purely sustain.

    7.) wrong. You’ve probably been spending to much time just attacking golems if you think this trait line is for damage. Considering that a whole match you are constantly using stealth whenever out of combat and even going into and out of stealth in combat. If you go a whole match staying at full hp the whole time you are either already winning by a lot of just being a decap bot or afk

  • Dantheman.3589Dantheman.3589 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 6, 2020

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Shiyo.3578 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:
    I think thief damage is fairly busted. The dp build is almost entirely specced for mobility, stealth and sustain- granted it uses berserker amulet but it still hits insanely hard granted what it’s specced for. It can get by just spamming backstabs and heartseekers etc which I’ve seen hit like 6-7k per at times. It’s not 100% necessary as some suggest, but it might as well be since it has no boundaries due to mobility and stealth and has instant high impact and also insanely high passive impact due to the idea that “o they can stealth for 10s and get across the map in that time”.

    Yes, thief damage is a huge problem. The fact they can run zerker and still have 15k hp due to daredevil is one of the issues.

    Its not, its quite low.

    UNOwen I recommend you play other classes for a few months so you can get a better perspective on why people(including top players) think thief is the best class in the game next to holo.

    I have been playing core Engineer and only core engineer for about a year now. I know why thief is good, but its the same thing its always been. Thief is not "the best class next to holo" (especially because Scrapper is arguably better than Holo as is). Thief is a mandatory 1-of due to its superior mobility that makes up for its inferior everything else. But you never want more than one thief on your team, else you will lose. Does that sound like a best class to you?

    The truth is that Thieves damage is pretty pathetic. Its enough to win +1s, but you need very little to win +1s. If you compared it to any other roamer, every single one blows thief out of the water. Same with defense, same with CC, same with utility. But it doesnt matter because Thief gets to the +1s fast than anyone else. Thats also why, if you took away shortbow 5, thief would instantly become unplayable. Because suddenly thief doesnt get to them faster than anyone else. And then its inferior everything else just makes it trash tier.

    Is that why legendary rated streamers have been calling thief “the most busted ranked carry next to holo”. This obsession over shortbow 5 is incredibly bizarre too, but u also think thief’s team fight with short bow and swap to dp to decap.

    Yes, the obsession with the one weapon skill all theif mains have known for year defines their class and is literally the only reason it functions is "bizarre". Also, why are you just saying a simple truth as if its supposed to mean anything?

    No that skill does not define the class neither does the short bow weapon it’s self. What thief mains say about shortbow is that it’s mandatory- saying just 1 skill in a mandatory weapon defines the class is a huge falsification. Considering have a weapon besides short bow is also mandatory means that short bow it’s self doesn’t define thief let alone 1 skill. Again there are no high rated thief’s that I’ve ever seen that say that nor anyone on metabattle or on streams. Most would say that’s actually bizarre in my experience.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 6, 2020

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:
    I think thief damage is fairly busted. The dp build is almost entirely specced for mobility, stealth and sustain- granted it uses berserker amulet but it still hits insanely hard granted what it’s specced for. It can get by just spamming backstabs and heartseekers etc which I’ve seen hit like 6-7k per at times. It’s not 100% necessary as some suggest, but it might as well be since it has no boundaries due to mobility and stealth and has instant high impact and also insanely high passive impact due to the idea that “o they can stealth for 10s and get across the map in that time”.

    Its specced almost entirely for damage. You pick Daredevil because its the traitline that gives the most damage (after DA, the traitline previously picked over it, was nerfed hard). You pick SA because its the most reliable damage (it does basically nothing for your sustain, especially now that people are using hidden thief). And you pick Trickery because its mandatory (though it also gives a lot of damage). And ontop of that it runs Berserkers amulet.

    And for how all-in it goes on damage, it hits pretty poor. Backstabs on a squishy class hit for 5k. If the enemy has any toughness, it hits for less. Heartseeker can hit for 5.5k on a squishy class at <25%, less on toughness again. Thats very little. I do close to that damage on core engineer just using grenades. While actually picking an entire traitline purely for defense (Id hit harder if I used Firearms, but core engineer cant run away with ease, so I cant exactly lower my survivability to as low as thieves).

    Shadow arts is and has been a defensive trait line since gw1 are u such an online miracle that you can change the definition of the trait lines since before the game was created? I think not, there are some damage modifiers but the #1 reason for these lines are mobility(DrD) intiative(trickery) and stealth(shadow arts). None of these traitlines are specifically taken to improve damage it’s just in the long run they add some, mostly from modifiers though that are not even close to 100% guaranteed to be present.

    Shadow arts was a defensive traitline. Keyword WAS. While it was a defensive traitline, it was largely unpicked. Then a while back they changed it around a bit, and now its not used as a defensive traitline. In fact, the reason its picked now is because of shadow siphoning, leeching venoms and Rending Shade. 3 traits with no real defensive value. In fact, lets look beyond that. The remaining 3 traits are the 2 minor traits (stealth when using healing skill. Redundant since HiS is used anyway. Provides no defense. Increased stealth duration from skills. Also pointless, no defense.) And Hidden Thief, which gives Stealth on steal (used for quick backstabs) and cd reduction. So tell me, where in this pile of traits do you see any defense. Its used as a damage traitline with minor utility.

    Daredevil is picked 100% for damage, dash is just gravy. Remember, it wasnt so long ago that the meta thief build was DA/SA/Trickery. The only reason Daredevil was picked again over DA was because DAs damage was hard nerfed, and now Daredevil gives more damage. If Daredevil was picked for mobility, why was it ignored in favour of DA? And Trickery is the only one that isnt picked for damage. Its picked because its mandatory for initiative. But even so it provides a decent chunk of damage. In order, the #1 reason to pick these traitlines is damage (Shadow Arts), damage (Daredevil) and initiative with a bit of damage (Trickery). Its more damage-focused than most classes.

    Daredevil is taken for mobility and shadow arts for stealth. Comparing to an old build is well redundant since that build was used for like a month and basically absent for like 5 years. Shadow arts is still by definition a defensive traitline. It has options of stealth or defensive traits and then life shipon which is still fairly defensive. Only offensive one is basically rending shade which isn’t always picked so yeah no.

    You cant just repeat a wrong thing until it turns true. It will stay false. Shadow Arts is not taken for defense, or stealth, its taken for damage. Why do you think it went unpicked entirely (Even while providing boosts to stealth) all the way up until they added leeching venoms and shadow siphoning? In fact, lets take a closer look, shall we? It does actually have a few defensive traits. Shadow's Embrace. No longer picked. Flickering Shadows, not picked (despite being a 33% damage reduction while revealed). Shadow Saviour, not picked. Instead, its only picked for traits that have no defensive value and are purely offensive. Like the siphon traits (that you only proc when you engage a fight 95% of the time, and as such the healing goes to waste). Shadow Siphoning is an offensive trait. Leeching Venoms is the only offensive trait in a slot that has 2 defensive traits, and its picked 100% of the time. Rending Shade is offensive and picked 90+% of the time. Hidden thief is offensive and used 90+% of the time.

    I dont know how I can simplify it further for you, but the simple fact is that its purely taken as a damage traitline. Oh and as for the "oh its picked for stealth thing", D/Ps primary stealth source is black powder + heartseeker, which doesnt benefit from SA. Meld with Shadows theoretically would, but you already have swiftness. The stealth on heal does nothing, since your heal stealths anyway (And you only use your heal in combat, where you want to drop stealth ASAP, so the duration does nothing). The increased stealth from skills does nothing for similar reasons.

    As for Daredevil my point still stands. Of course I can compare it to the build that immediately preceded it. Especially because that build followed from a Daredevil build, where Daredevil was dropped in favour of DA because DA did more damage. And of course it was absent for 5 years, Shadow Arts used to be a defensive traitline after all. Which meant no one ever picked it. But after it was changed to a damage traitline, it replaced DA originally, before people figured out "hey, DA also adds more damage than Daredevil, so lets just drop Daredevil". But then DA was nerfed hard, and people went back to Daredevil. Mind you, when the patch that obliterated DA dropped, Sindrener explained why DD D/P is now recommended over DA D/P, and he specifically said its because DA was nerfed so much it just does less damage. Dash is just gravy.

    You didn’t simplify anything just make it more complicated by mixing stuff up from over the course of many years. And no daredevil isn’t taken for more damage it’s taken becuz the additional mobility is very worth the trade off of slightly higher damage and yeah I’ve seen sinderners argument he said even if you took DA it would only ever be slightly more damage. The additional stealth and mobility are just so huge on this build that the trade offs are barely present and the damage like wise is good enough without these things as well as being incredibly simple and effective with all the stealth and mobility on top.

    Please dont try to evade answering my question. So tell me once again. Which part of SA is supposed to be defensive? Why was it only picked after its defensive capabilities were nerfed, and it instead got several offensive traits added? Why is it that only the offensive traits get picked instead of defensive alternatives in the same slot? Go ahead, answer it.

    No, Daredevil is taken because its more damage than DA. There is no trade-off, DA just adds less damage because it was nerfed. Thats why when DA did provide more damage, you picked it over Daredevil. Because the additional mobility of dash is pretty minor considering you have shortbow 5. There is no additional stealth. Full stop. You could make hidden thief and concealing restoration both do nothing for stealth, and people would still pick SA 100% of the time, because those traits are irrelevant as they are. You pick SA for damage.

    No ones going to answer your question. It’s not the point of a forum. I know you think calling ppl out with your gold facts is cool, but I see no need since this isn’t a thread for that. Feel free to disagree with the op though

    I will give him answer for you :D

    @UNOwen.7132
    1 Concealing restoration -> 2s stealth on healing skill use

    1 second. The currently used healing skill is Hide in Shadows. This trait does basically nothing.

    2 Hidden thief -> stealing grants stealth ( 3s ), deception skills reduced recharge -> that includes ( healing skill for stealth/healing, shadowstep for condi cleanse, 2x stunbreake and mobility along with BP for another Stunbreake and stealth )

    Used for quick backstabs mid-combat. The cooldown reaction is nice, but its not really defensive, since you dont use them twice in a single fight.

    3 meld with shadows -> movespeed in stealth

    Pointless since you already max out on swiftness and rarely stealth up while still in combat (And you dont stay in combat for long even if you were still suffering from the reduced speed since those rare situations are when you already disengaged but havent broken the in-combat thing yet).

    4 Spider venom -> steal hp 650 each time you stealth

    At the start of the fight where the healing goes completely to waste. Used exclusively for damage.

    5 Shadow siphoning -> another 500 siphon from stealth

    At the start of the fight where the healing goes completely to waste. Used exclusively for damage.

    6 Boonrip and fear.

    Well, boonrip or fear. Its a utility trait used for offense.

    Legit every single trait gives mobility or utility or healing. You pretend its take for the damage since siphons hit for 1k out of stealth every time, its chip damage that adds up but SA is made for utility.

    And yet, the only traits its picked for are leeching venoms, shadow siphoning and to a lesser degree rending shade. The former 2 are exclusively damage traits, since the healing gets wasted while youre at full hp. SA may conceptually be a utility/defensive traitline, but its picked as a damage traitline with every defensive trait being completely ignored. If you wanted defense, youd use Flickering Shadows, not leeching venoms. And yet, no one ever does. Its a similar concept to Valor for burning guard. Its supposed to be a defensive traitline, and you even pick one defensive trait as burn guard. But you pick the traitline purely for Permeating Wrath. A damage trait.

    1. Wrong, it gives a total of 2 becuz the trait that gives +1 sec to all stealth skills 2.) Wrong. It’ll reduce your defensive cds and gives stealth which is defensive. You’ll see streamers like bluri use it all the time for defense or just stealth. 3.) Wrong. It gives more MS than swiftness, which is useful. Again I see players like bluri use stealth all the time just for the MS increase. 4.) Wrong. It gives up to 2 poison stacks. Which is useful to prevent healing and for sustain + damage that wouldn’t be present without the siphon trait since your power 5.) wrong. You even pointed out stealth is mid combat yet this isn’t for sustain? You contradicting yourself. 6.) Yeah. But the other 2 options for grandmaster are still very common and the other most used 1 is purely sustain.

    Why ruin the formatting, cmon. Lets see. 1) thats a seperate trait, dont conflate 2 traits. Also still not useful. 2) the reduction in CD is nice, but it will rarely end up used for defense. Also, stealth is offensive, not defensive. The stealth on steal is used pretty much only to either A, get a quick backstab in combat, or B, to prolong your stealth out of combat to burst with a backstab. 3) movement speed has a max cap. Out of combat, that max cap is 400, which is reached with Swiftness. The swiftness you have permanently. So the movement speed does absolutely nothing. 4) If you cared just for the poison, DA has you covered. You pick it for damage. 5) I didnt. I pointed out specifically stealth isnt used mid-combat other than exactly with hidden thief. 6) theyre very uncommon. They get picked, but not much.

    7.) wrong. You’ve probably been spending to much time just attacking golems if you think this trait line is for damage. Considering that a whole match you are constantly using stealth whenever out of combat and even going into and out of stealth in combat. If you go a whole match staying at full hp the whole time you are either already winning by a lot of just being a decap bot or afk

    You use stealth out of combat, correct. This however is accomplished without any benefit from SA, as the stealth you use does not get increased duration (combo finishers dont count as skills) and the movement speed is wasted due to the cap. You do not go in and out of stealth in combat. The only time you enter stealth in-combat is either hidden thief backstab, or HiS/Blinding powder. In all 3 cases you exit stealth ASAP, so you do not gain any benefit from SA either, other than possibly some healing and obviously damage. Except, even healing-wise, if you want that, Mug completely outpaces all healing SA provides. The traitline is for damage.

    But let me just ask you one very simple question. If Shadow Siphoning and Leeching Venoms were both removed from the traitline (lets say venoms gets put in DA, and Siphoning just gets removed), and get replaced by very strong defensive traits. Do you think the traitline would be picked? I know the answer, but lets see what you think.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 6, 2020

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Shiyo.3578 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:
    I think thief damage is fairly busted. The dp build is almost entirely specced for mobility, stealth and sustain- granted it uses berserker amulet but it still hits insanely hard granted what it’s specced for. It can get by just spamming backstabs and heartseekers etc which I’ve seen hit like 6-7k per at times. It’s not 100% necessary as some suggest, but it might as well be since it has no boundaries due to mobility and stealth and has instant high impact and also insanely high passive impact due to the idea that “o they can stealth for 10s and get across the map in that time”.

    Yes, thief damage is a huge problem. The fact they can run zerker and still have 15k hp due to daredevil is one of the issues.

    Its not, its quite low.

    UNOwen I recommend you play other classes for a few months so you can get a better perspective on why people(including top players) think thief is the best class in the game next to holo.

    I have been playing core Engineer and only core engineer for about a year now. I know why thief is good, but its the same thing its always been. Thief is not "the best class next to holo" (especially because Scrapper is arguably better than Holo as is). Thief is a mandatory 1-of due to its superior mobility that makes up for its inferior everything else. But you never want more than one thief on your team, else you will lose. Does that sound like a best class to you?

    The truth is that Thieves damage is pretty pathetic. Its enough to win +1s, but you need very little to win +1s. If you compared it to any other roamer, every single one blows thief out of the water. Same with defense, same with CC, same with utility. But it doesnt matter because Thief gets to the +1s fast than anyone else. Thats also why, if you took away shortbow 5, thief would instantly become unplayable. Because suddenly thief doesnt get to them faster than anyone else. And then its inferior everything else just makes it trash tier.

    Is that why legendary rated streamers have been calling thief “the most busted ranked carry next to holo”. This obsession over shortbow 5 is incredibly bizarre too, but u also think thief’s team fight with short bow and swap to dp to decap.

    Yes, the obsession with the one weapon skill all theif mains have known for year defines their class and is literally the only reason it functions is "bizarre". Also, why are you just saying a simple truth as if its supposed to mean anything?

    No that skill does not define the class neither does the short bow weapon it’s self. What thief mains say about shortbow is that it’s mandatory- saying just 1 skill in a mandatory weapon defines the class is a huge falsification. Considering have a weapon besides short bow is also mandatory means that short bow it’s self doesn’t define thief let alone 1 skill. Again there are no high rated thief’s that I’ve ever seen that say that nor anyone on metabattle or on streams. Most would say that’s actually bizarre in my experience.

    Of course it defines the class, and by extension so does shortbow. Now you mightve tuned out when people were discussing it, but thieves say that its mandatory because of shortbow 5, and shortbow is the reason thief is viable. The second weapon is honestly not that important. Thats why thieves change their main weapon between builds, change everything around, but one thing stays unchanged always. Shortbow is the second weapon you use, and shortbow 5 is why youre viable. Also many high rated thieves have said this multiple times, and metabattle says that thief is picked primarily for its insane mobility, which is synonymous with shortbow 5. No, what people would say is bizarre, is acting like shortbow 5 isnt the defining aspect of thief. What youre doing right now.

    But just for fun, try the following: Play thief without ever using shortbow 5. You can keep shortbow if you want, but no shortbow 5. And do it in a MAT to ensure that the competition is good. See how effective you will be. Spoiler: Youll be useless. There is a reason why Thief was the worst class in 2v2/3v3, and that reason is because shortbow 5, their defining skill, isnt useful in it.

  • wevh.2903wevh.2903 Member ✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:
    I think thief damage is fairly busted. The dp build is almost entirely specced for mobility, stealth and sustain- granted it uses berserker amulet but it still hits insanely hard granted what it’s specced for. It can get by just spamming backstabs and heartseekers etc which I’ve seen hit like 6-7k per at times. It’s not 100% necessary as some suggest, but it might as well be since it has no boundaries due to mobility and stealth and has instant high impact and also insanely high passive impact due to the idea that “o they can stealth for 10s and get across the map in that time”.

    Its specced almost entirely for damage. You pick Daredevil because its the traitline that gives the most damage (after DA, the traitline previously picked over it, was nerfed hard). You pick SA because its the most reliable damage (it does basically nothing for your sustain, especially now that people are using hidden thief). And you pick Trickery because its mandatory (though it also gives a lot of damage). And ontop of that it runs Berserkers amulet.

    And for how all-in it goes on damage, it hits pretty poor. Backstabs on a squishy class hit for 5k. If the enemy has any toughness, it hits for less. Heartseeker can hit for 5.5k on a squishy class at <25%, less on toughness again. Thats very little. I do close to that damage on core engineer just using grenades. While actually picking an entire traitline purely for defense (Id hit harder if I used Firearms, but core engineer cant run away with ease, so I cant exactly lower my survivability to as low as thieves).

    Shadow arts is and has been a defensive trait line since gw1 are u such an online miracle that you can change the definition of the trait lines since before the game was created? I think not, there are some damage modifiers but the #1 reason for these lines are mobility(DrD) intiative(trickery) and stealth(shadow arts). None of these traitlines are specifically taken to improve damage it’s just in the long run they add some, mostly from modifiers though that are not even close to 100% guaranteed to be present.

    Shadow arts was a defensive traitline. Keyword WAS. While it was a defensive traitline, it was largely unpicked. Then a while back they changed it around a bit, and now its not used as a defensive traitline. In fact, the reason its picked now is because of shadow siphoning, leeching venoms and Rending Shade. 3 traits with no real defensive value. In fact, lets look beyond that. The remaining 3 traits are the 2 minor traits (stealth when using healing skill. Redundant since HiS is used anyway. Provides no defense. Increased stealth duration from skills. Also pointless, no defense.) And Hidden Thief, which gives Stealth on steal (used for quick backstabs) and cd reduction. So tell me, where in this pile of traits do you see any defense. Its used as a damage traitline with minor utility.

    Daredevil is picked 100% for damage, dash is just gravy. Remember, it wasnt so long ago that the meta thief build was DA/SA/Trickery. The only reason Daredevil was picked again over DA was because DAs damage was hard nerfed, and now Daredevil gives more damage. If Daredevil was picked for mobility, why was it ignored in favour of DA? And Trickery is the only one that isnt picked for damage. Its picked because its mandatory for initiative. But even so it provides a decent chunk of damage. In order, the #1 reason to pick these traitlines is damage (Shadow Arts), damage (Daredevil) and initiative with a bit of damage (Trickery). Its more damage-focused than most classes.

    Daredevil is taken for mobility and shadow arts for stealth. Comparing to an old build is well redundant since that build was used for like a month and basically absent for like 5 years. Shadow arts is still by definition a defensive traitline. It has options of stealth or defensive traits and then life shipon which is still fairly defensive. Only offensive one is basically rending shade which isn’t always picked so yeah no.

    You cant just repeat a wrong thing until it turns true. It will stay false. Shadow Arts is not taken for defense, or stealth, its taken for damage. Why do you think it went unpicked entirely (Even while providing boosts to stealth) all the way up until they added leeching venoms and shadow siphoning? In fact, lets take a closer look, shall we? It does actually have a few defensive traits. Shadow's Embrace. No longer picked. Flickering Shadows, not picked (despite being a 33% damage reduction while revealed). Shadow Saviour, not picked. Instead, its only picked for traits that have no defensive value and are purely offensive. Like the siphon traits (that you only proc when you engage a fight 95% of the time, and as such the healing goes to waste). Shadow Siphoning is an offensive trait. Leeching Venoms is the only offensive trait in a slot that has 2 defensive traits, and its picked 100% of the time. Rending Shade is offensive and picked 90+% of the time. Hidden thief is offensive and used 90+% of the time.

    I dont know how I can simplify it further for you, but the simple fact is that its purely taken as a damage traitline. Oh and as for the "oh its picked for stealth thing", D/Ps primary stealth source is black powder + heartseeker, which doesnt benefit from SA. Meld with Shadows theoretically would, but you already have swiftness. The stealth on heal does nothing, since your heal stealths anyway (And you only use your heal in combat, where you want to drop stealth ASAP, so the duration does nothing). The increased stealth from skills does nothing for similar reasons.

    As for Daredevil my point still stands. Of course I can compare it to the build that immediately preceded it. Especially because that build followed from a Daredevil build, where Daredevil was dropped in favour of DA because DA did more damage. And of course it was absent for 5 years, Shadow Arts used to be a defensive traitline after all. Which meant no one ever picked it. But after it was changed to a damage traitline, it replaced DA originally, before people figured out "hey, DA also adds more damage than Daredevil, so lets just drop Daredevil". But then DA was nerfed hard, and people went back to Daredevil. Mind you, when the patch that obliterated DA dropped, Sindrener explained why DD D/P is now recommended over DA D/P, and he specifically said its because DA was nerfed so much it just does less damage. Dash is just gravy.

    You didn’t simplify anything just make it more complicated by mixing stuff up from over the course of many years. And no daredevil isn’t taken for more damage it’s taken becuz the additional mobility is very worth the trade off of slightly higher damage and yeah I’ve seen sinderners argument he said even if you took DA it would only ever be slightly more damage. The additional stealth and mobility are just so huge on this build that the trade offs are barely present and the damage like wise is good enough without these things as well as being incredibly simple and effective with all the stealth and mobility on top.

    Please dont try to evade answering my question. So tell me once again. Which part of SA is supposed to be defensive? Why was it only picked after its defensive capabilities were nerfed, and it instead got several offensive traits added? Why is it that only the offensive traits get picked instead of defensive alternatives in the same slot? Go ahead, answer it.

    No, Daredevil is taken because its more damage than DA. There is no trade-off, DA just adds less damage because it was nerfed. Thats why when DA did provide more damage, you picked it over Daredevil. Because the additional mobility of dash is pretty minor considering you have shortbow 5. There is no additional stealth. Full stop. You could make hidden thief and concealing restoration both do nothing for stealth, and people would still pick SA 100% of the time, because those traits are irrelevant as they are. You pick SA for damage.

    No ones going to answer your question. It’s not the point of a forum. I know you think calling ppl out with your gold facts is cool, but I see no need since this isn’t a thread for that. Feel free to disagree with the op though

    I will give him answer for you :D

    @UNOwen.7132
    1 Concealing restoration -> 2s stealth on healing skill use
    2 Hidden thief -> stealing grants stealth ( 3s ), deception skills reduced recharge -> that includes ( healing skill for stealth/healing, shadowstep for condi cleanse, 2x stunbreake and mobility along with BP for another Stunbreake and stealth )
    3 meld with shadows -> movespeed in stealth
    4 Spider venom -> steal hp 650 each time you stealth
    5 Shadow siphoning -> another 500 siphon from stealth
    6 Boonrip and fear.
    Legit every single trait gives mobility or utility or healing. You pretend its take for the damage since siphons hit for 1k out of stealth every time, its chip damage that adds up but SA is made for utility.

    Without deadly arts nerf thiefs wouldnt run shadoe arts

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @wevh.2903 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:
    I think thief damage is fairly busted. The dp build is almost entirely specced for mobility, stealth and sustain- granted it uses berserker amulet but it still hits insanely hard granted what it’s specced for. It can get by just spamming backstabs and heartseekers etc which I’ve seen hit like 6-7k per at times. It’s not 100% necessary as some suggest, but it might as well be since it has no boundaries due to mobility and stealth and has instant high impact and also insanely high passive impact due to the idea that “o they can stealth for 10s and get across the map in that time”.

    Its specced almost entirely for damage. You pick Daredevil because its the traitline that gives the most damage (after DA, the traitline previously picked over it, was nerfed hard). You pick SA because its the most reliable damage (it does basically nothing for your sustain, especially now that people are using hidden thief). And you pick Trickery because its mandatory (though it also gives a lot of damage). And ontop of that it runs Berserkers amulet.

    And for how all-in it goes on damage, it hits pretty poor. Backstabs on a squishy class hit for 5k. If the enemy has any toughness, it hits for less. Heartseeker can hit for 5.5k on a squishy class at <25%, less on toughness again. Thats very little. I do close to that damage on core engineer just using grenades. While actually picking an entire traitline purely for defense (Id hit harder if I used Firearms, but core engineer cant run away with ease, so I cant exactly lower my survivability to as low as thieves).

    Shadow arts is and has been a defensive trait line since gw1 are u such an online miracle that you can change the definition of the trait lines since before the game was created? I think not, there are some damage modifiers but the #1 reason for these lines are mobility(DrD) intiative(trickery) and stealth(shadow arts). None of these traitlines are specifically taken to improve damage it’s just in the long run they add some, mostly from modifiers though that are not even close to 100% guaranteed to be present.

    Shadow arts was a defensive traitline. Keyword WAS. While it was a defensive traitline, it was largely unpicked. Then a while back they changed it around a bit, and now its not used as a defensive traitline. In fact, the reason its picked now is because of shadow siphoning, leeching venoms and Rending Shade. 3 traits with no real defensive value. In fact, lets look beyond that. The remaining 3 traits are the 2 minor traits (stealth when using healing skill. Redundant since HiS is used anyway. Provides no defense. Increased stealth duration from skills. Also pointless, no defense.) And Hidden Thief, which gives Stealth on steal (used for quick backstabs) and cd reduction. So tell me, where in this pile of traits do you see any defense. Its used as a damage traitline with minor utility.

    Daredevil is picked 100% for damage, dash is just gravy. Remember, it wasnt so long ago that the meta thief build was DA/SA/Trickery. The only reason Daredevil was picked again over DA was because DAs damage was hard nerfed, and now Daredevil gives more damage. If Daredevil was picked for mobility, why was it ignored in favour of DA? And Trickery is the only one that isnt picked for damage. Its picked because its mandatory for initiative. But even so it provides a decent chunk of damage. In order, the #1 reason to pick these traitlines is damage (Shadow Arts), damage (Daredevil) and initiative with a bit of damage (Trickery). Its more damage-focused than most classes.

    Daredevil is taken for mobility and shadow arts for stealth. Comparing to an old build is well redundant since that build was used for like a month and basically absent for like 5 years. Shadow arts is still by definition a defensive traitline. It has options of stealth or defensive traits and then life shipon which is still fairly defensive. Only offensive one is basically rending shade which isn’t always picked so yeah no.

    You cant just repeat a wrong thing until it turns true. It will stay false. Shadow Arts is not taken for defense, or stealth, its taken for damage. Why do you think it went unpicked entirely (Even while providing boosts to stealth) all the way up until they added leeching venoms and shadow siphoning? In fact, lets take a closer look, shall we? It does actually have a few defensive traits. Shadow's Embrace. No longer picked. Flickering Shadows, not picked (despite being a 33% damage reduction while revealed). Shadow Saviour, not picked. Instead, its only picked for traits that have no defensive value and are purely offensive. Like the siphon traits (that you only proc when you engage a fight 95% of the time, and as such the healing goes to waste). Shadow Siphoning is an offensive trait. Leeching Venoms is the only offensive trait in a slot that has 2 defensive traits, and its picked 100% of the time. Rending Shade is offensive and picked 90+% of the time. Hidden thief is offensive and used 90+% of the time.

    I dont know how I can simplify it further for you, but the simple fact is that its purely taken as a damage traitline. Oh and as for the "oh its picked for stealth thing", D/Ps primary stealth source is black powder + heartseeker, which doesnt benefit from SA. Meld with Shadows theoretically would, but you already have swiftness. The stealth on heal does nothing, since your heal stealths anyway (And you only use your heal in combat, where you want to drop stealth ASAP, so the duration does nothing). The increased stealth from skills does nothing for similar reasons.

    As for Daredevil my point still stands. Of course I can compare it to the build that immediately preceded it. Especially because that build followed from a Daredevil build, where Daredevil was dropped in favour of DA because DA did more damage. And of course it was absent for 5 years, Shadow Arts used to be a defensive traitline after all. Which meant no one ever picked it. But after it was changed to a damage traitline, it replaced DA originally, before people figured out "hey, DA also adds more damage than Daredevil, so lets just drop Daredevil". But then DA was nerfed hard, and people went back to Daredevil. Mind you, when the patch that obliterated DA dropped, Sindrener explained why DD D/P is now recommended over DA D/P, and he specifically said its because DA was nerfed so much it just does less damage. Dash is just gravy.

    You didn’t simplify anything just make it more complicated by mixing stuff up from over the course of many years. And no daredevil isn’t taken for more damage it’s taken becuz the additional mobility is very worth the trade off of slightly higher damage and yeah I’ve seen sinderners argument he said even if you took DA it would only ever be slightly more damage. The additional stealth and mobility are just so huge on this build that the trade offs are barely present and the damage like wise is good enough without these things as well as being incredibly simple and effective with all the stealth and mobility on top.

    Please dont try to evade answering my question. So tell me once again. Which part of SA is supposed to be defensive? Why was it only picked after its defensive capabilities were nerfed, and it instead got several offensive traits added? Why is it that only the offensive traits get picked instead of defensive alternatives in the same slot? Go ahead, answer it.

    No, Daredevil is taken because its more damage than DA. There is no trade-off, DA just adds less damage because it was nerfed. Thats why when DA did provide more damage, you picked it over Daredevil. Because the additional mobility of dash is pretty minor considering you have shortbow 5. There is no additional stealth. Full stop. You could make hidden thief and concealing restoration both do nothing for stealth, and people would still pick SA 100% of the time, because those traits are irrelevant as they are. You pick SA for damage.

    No ones going to answer your question. It’s not the point of a forum. I know you think calling ppl out with your gold facts is cool, but I see no need since this isn’t a thread for that. Feel free to disagree with the op though

    I will give him answer for you :D

    @UNOwen.7132
    1 Concealing restoration -> 2s stealth on healing skill use
    2 Hidden thief -> stealing grants stealth ( 3s ), deception skills reduced recharge -> that includes ( healing skill for stealth/healing, shadowstep for condi cleanse, 2x stunbreake and mobility along with BP for another Stunbreake and stealth )
    3 meld with shadows -> movespeed in stealth
    4 Spider venom -> steal hp 650 each time you stealth
    5 Shadow siphoning -> another 500 siphon from stealth
    6 Boonrip and fear.
    Legit every single trait gives mobility or utility or healing. You pretend its take for the damage since siphons hit for 1k out of stealth every time, its chip damage that adds up but SA is made for utility.

    Without deadly arts nerf thiefs wouldnt run shadoe arts

    Well, theyd drop either SA or Daredevil, whichever adds less damage.

  • wevh.2903wevh.2903 Member ✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @wevh.2903 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:
    I think thief damage is fairly busted. The dp build is almost entirely specced for mobility, stealth and sustain- granted it uses berserker amulet but it still hits insanely hard granted what it’s specced for. It can get by just spamming backstabs and heartseekers etc which I’ve seen hit like 6-7k per at times. It’s not 100% necessary as some suggest, but it might as well be since it has no boundaries due to mobility and stealth and has instant high impact and also insanely high passive impact due to the idea that “o they can stealth for 10s and get across the map in that time”.

    Its specced almost entirely for damage. You pick Daredevil because its the traitline that gives the most damage (after DA, the traitline previously picked over it, was nerfed hard). You pick SA because its the most reliable damage (it does basically nothing for your sustain, especially now that people are using hidden thief). And you pick Trickery because its mandatory (though it also gives a lot of damage). And ontop of that it runs Berserkers amulet.

    And for how all-in it goes on damage, it hits pretty poor. Backstabs on a squishy class hit for 5k. If the enemy has any toughness, it hits for less. Heartseeker can hit for 5.5k on a squishy class at <25%, less on toughness again. Thats very little. I do close to that damage on core engineer just using grenades. While actually picking an entire traitline purely for defense (Id hit harder if I used Firearms, but core engineer cant run away with ease, so I cant exactly lower my survivability to as low as thieves).

    Shadow arts is and has been a defensive trait line since gw1 are u such an online miracle that you can change the definition of the trait lines since before the game was created? I think not, there are some damage modifiers but the #1 reason for these lines are mobility(DrD) intiative(trickery) and stealth(shadow arts). None of these traitlines are specifically taken to improve damage it’s just in the long run they add some, mostly from modifiers though that are not even close to 100% guaranteed to be present.

    Shadow arts was a defensive traitline. Keyword WAS. While it was a defensive traitline, it was largely unpicked. Then a while back they changed it around a bit, and now its not used as a defensive traitline. In fact, the reason its picked now is because of shadow siphoning, leeching venoms and Rending Shade. 3 traits with no real defensive value. In fact, lets look beyond that. The remaining 3 traits are the 2 minor traits (stealth when using healing skill. Redundant since HiS is used anyway. Provides no defense. Increased stealth duration from skills. Also pointless, no defense.) And Hidden Thief, which gives Stealth on steal (used for quick backstabs) and cd reduction. So tell me, where in this pile of traits do you see any defense. Its used as a damage traitline with minor utility.

    Daredevil is picked 100% for damage, dash is just gravy. Remember, it wasnt so long ago that the meta thief build was DA/SA/Trickery. The only reason Daredevil was picked again over DA was because DAs damage was hard nerfed, and now Daredevil gives more damage. If Daredevil was picked for mobility, why was it ignored in favour of DA? And Trickery is the only one that isnt picked for damage. Its picked because its mandatory for initiative. But even so it provides a decent chunk of damage. In order, the #1 reason to pick these traitlines is damage (Shadow Arts), damage (Daredevil) and initiative with a bit of damage (Trickery). Its more damage-focused than most classes.

    Daredevil is taken for mobility and shadow arts for stealth. Comparing to an old build is well redundant since that build was used for like a month and basically absent for like 5 years. Shadow arts is still by definition a defensive traitline. It has options of stealth or defensive traits and then life shipon which is still fairly defensive. Only offensive one is basically rending shade which isn’t always picked so yeah no.

    You cant just repeat a wrong thing until it turns true. It will stay false. Shadow Arts is not taken for defense, or stealth, its taken for damage. Why do you think it went unpicked entirely (Even while providing boosts to stealth) all the way up until they added leeching venoms and shadow siphoning? In fact, lets take a closer look, shall we? It does actually have a few defensive traits. Shadow's Embrace. No longer picked. Flickering Shadows, not picked (despite being a 33% damage reduction while revealed). Shadow Saviour, not picked. Instead, its only picked for traits that have no defensive value and are purely offensive. Like the siphon traits (that you only proc when you engage a fight 95% of the time, and as such the healing goes to waste). Shadow Siphoning is an offensive trait. Leeching Venoms is the only offensive trait in a slot that has 2 defensive traits, and its picked 100% of the time. Rending Shade is offensive and picked 90+% of the time. Hidden thief is offensive and used 90+% of the time.

    I dont know how I can simplify it further for you, but the simple fact is that its purely taken as a damage traitline. Oh and as for the "oh its picked for stealth thing", D/Ps primary stealth source is black powder + heartseeker, which doesnt benefit from SA. Meld with Shadows theoretically would, but you already have swiftness. The stealth on heal does nothing, since your heal stealths anyway (And you only use your heal in combat, where you want to drop stealth ASAP, so the duration does nothing). The increased stealth from skills does nothing for similar reasons.

    As for Daredevil my point still stands. Of course I can compare it to the build that immediately preceded it. Especially because that build followed from a Daredevil build, where Daredevil was dropped in favour of DA because DA did more damage. And of course it was absent for 5 years, Shadow Arts used to be a defensive traitline after all. Which meant no one ever picked it. But after it was changed to a damage traitline, it replaced DA originally, before people figured out "hey, DA also adds more damage than Daredevil, so lets just drop Daredevil". But then DA was nerfed hard, and people went back to Daredevil. Mind you, when the patch that obliterated DA dropped, Sindrener explained why DD D/P is now recommended over DA D/P, and he specifically said its because DA was nerfed so much it just does less damage. Dash is just gravy.

    You didn’t simplify anything just make it more complicated by mixing stuff up from over the course of many years. And no daredevil isn’t taken for more damage it’s taken becuz the additional mobility is very worth the trade off of slightly higher damage and yeah I’ve seen sinderners argument he said even if you took DA it would only ever be slightly more damage. The additional stealth and mobility are just so huge on this build that the trade offs are barely present and the damage like wise is good enough without these things as well as being incredibly simple and effective with all the stealth and mobility on top.

    Please dont try to evade answering my question. So tell me once again. Which part of SA is supposed to be defensive? Why was it only picked after its defensive capabilities were nerfed, and it instead got several offensive traits added? Why is it that only the offensive traits get picked instead of defensive alternatives in the same slot? Go ahead, answer it.

    No, Daredevil is taken because its more damage than DA. There is no trade-off, DA just adds less damage because it was nerfed. Thats why when DA did provide more damage, you picked it over Daredevil. Because the additional mobility of dash is pretty minor considering you have shortbow 5. There is no additional stealth. Full stop. You could make hidden thief and concealing restoration both do nothing for stealth, and people would still pick SA 100% of the time, because those traits are irrelevant as they are. You pick SA for damage.

    No ones going to answer your question. It’s not the point of a forum. I know you think calling ppl out with your gold facts is cool, but I see no need since this isn’t a thread for that. Feel free to disagree with the op though

    I will give him answer for you :D

    @UNOwen.7132
    1 Concealing restoration -> 2s stealth on healing skill use
    2 Hidden thief -> stealing grants stealth ( 3s ), deception skills reduced recharge -> that includes ( healing skill for stealth/healing, shadowstep for condi cleanse, 2x stunbreake and mobility along with BP for another Stunbreake and stealth )
    3 meld with shadows -> movespeed in stealth
    4 Spider venom -> steal hp 650 each time you stealth
    5 Shadow siphoning -> another 500 siphon from stealth
    6 Boonrip and fear.
    Legit every single trait gives mobility or utility or healing. You pretend its take for the damage since siphons hit for 1k out of stealth every time, its chip damage that adds up but SA is made for utility.

    Without deadly arts nerf thiefs wouldnt run shadoe arts

    Well, theyd drop either SA or Daredevil, whichever adds less damage.

    U cant drop daredevil , it was dropped before february cuz core could spike for 8k or 10k easily and pretty much one shot , not the case righr now after power creep nerf

  • Dantheman.3589Dantheman.3589 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 6, 2020

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:
    I think thief damage is fairly busted. The dp build is almost entirely specced for mobility, stealth and sustain- granted it uses berserker amulet but it still hits insanely hard granted what it’s specced for. It can get by just spamming backstabs and heartseekers etc which I’ve seen hit like 6-7k per at times. It’s not 100% necessary as some suggest, but it might as well be since it has no boundaries due to mobility and stealth and has instant high impact and also insanely high passive impact due to the idea that “o they can stealth for 10s and get across the map in that time”.

    Its specced almost entirely for damage. You pick Daredevil because its the traitline that gives the most damage (after DA, the traitline previously picked over it, was nerfed hard). You pick SA because its the most reliable damage (it does basically nothing for your sustain, especially now that people are using hidden thief). And you pick Trickery because its mandatory (though it also gives a lot of damage). And ontop of that it runs Berserkers amulet.

    And for how all-in it goes on damage, it hits pretty poor. Backstabs on a squishy class hit for 5k. If the enemy has any toughness, it hits for less. Heartseeker can hit for 5.5k on a squishy class at <25%, less on toughness again. Thats very little. I do close to that damage on core engineer just using grenades. While actually picking an entire traitline purely for defense (Id hit harder if I used Firearms, but core engineer cant run away with ease, so I cant exactly lower my survivability to as low as thieves).

    Shadow arts is and has been a defensive trait line since gw1 are u such an online miracle that you can change the definition of the trait lines since before the game was created? I think not, there are some damage modifiers but the #1 reason for these lines are mobility(DrD) intiative(trickery) and stealth(shadow arts). None of these traitlines are specifically taken to improve damage it’s just in the long run they add some, mostly from modifiers though that are not even close to 100% guaranteed to be present.

    Shadow arts was a defensive traitline. Keyword WAS. While it was a defensive traitline, it was largely unpicked. Then a while back they changed it around a bit, and now its not used as a defensive traitline. In fact, the reason its picked now is because of shadow siphoning, leeching venoms and Rending Shade. 3 traits with no real defensive value. In fact, lets look beyond that. The remaining 3 traits are the 2 minor traits (stealth when using healing skill. Redundant since HiS is used anyway. Provides no defense. Increased stealth duration from skills. Also pointless, no defense.) And Hidden Thief, which gives Stealth on steal (used for quick backstabs) and cd reduction. So tell me, where in this pile of traits do you see any defense. Its used as a damage traitline with minor utility.

    Daredevil is picked 100% for damage, dash is just gravy. Remember, it wasnt so long ago that the meta thief build was DA/SA/Trickery. The only reason Daredevil was picked again over DA was because DAs damage was hard nerfed, and now Daredevil gives more damage. If Daredevil was picked for mobility, why was it ignored in favour of DA? And Trickery is the only one that isnt picked for damage. Its picked because its mandatory for initiative. But even so it provides a decent chunk of damage. In order, the #1 reason to pick these traitlines is damage (Shadow Arts), damage (Daredevil) and initiative with a bit of damage (Trickery). Its more damage-focused than most classes.

    Daredevil is taken for mobility and shadow arts for stealth. Comparing to an old build is well redundant since that build was used for like a month and basically absent for like 5 years. Shadow arts is still by definition a defensive traitline. It has options of stealth or defensive traits and then life shipon which is still fairly defensive. Only offensive one is basically rending shade which isn’t always picked so yeah no.

    You cant just repeat a wrong thing until it turns true. It will stay false. Shadow Arts is not taken for defense, or stealth, its taken for damage. Why do you think it went unpicked entirely (Even while providing boosts to stealth) all the way up until they added leeching venoms and shadow siphoning? In fact, lets take a closer look, shall we? It does actually have a few defensive traits. Shadow's Embrace. No longer picked. Flickering Shadows, not picked (despite being a 33% damage reduction while revealed). Shadow Saviour, not picked. Instead, its only picked for traits that have no defensive value and are purely offensive. Like the siphon traits (that you only proc when you engage a fight 95% of the time, and as such the healing goes to waste). Shadow Siphoning is an offensive trait. Leeching Venoms is the only offensive trait in a slot that has 2 defensive traits, and its picked 100% of the time. Rending Shade is offensive and picked 90+% of the time. Hidden thief is offensive and used 90+% of the time.

    I dont know how I can simplify it further for you, but the simple fact is that its purely taken as a damage traitline. Oh and as for the "oh its picked for stealth thing", D/Ps primary stealth source is black powder + heartseeker, which doesnt benefit from SA. Meld with Shadows theoretically would, but you already have swiftness. The stealth on heal does nothing, since your heal stealths anyway (And you only use your heal in combat, where you want to drop stealth ASAP, so the duration does nothing). The increased stealth from skills does nothing for similar reasons.

    As for Daredevil my point still stands. Of course I can compare it to the build that immediately preceded it. Especially because that build followed from a Daredevil build, where Daredevil was dropped in favour of DA because DA did more damage. And of course it was absent for 5 years, Shadow Arts used to be a defensive traitline after all. Which meant no one ever picked it. But after it was changed to a damage traitline, it replaced DA originally, before people figured out "hey, DA also adds more damage than Daredevil, so lets just drop Daredevil". But then DA was nerfed hard, and people went back to Daredevil. Mind you, when the patch that obliterated DA dropped, Sindrener explained why DD D/P is now recommended over DA D/P, and he specifically said its because DA was nerfed so much it just does less damage. Dash is just gravy.

    You didn’t simplify anything just make it more complicated by mixing stuff up from over the course of many years. And no daredevil isn’t taken for more damage it’s taken becuz the additional mobility is very worth the trade off of slightly higher damage and yeah I’ve seen sinderners argument he said even if you took DA it would only ever be slightly more damage. The additional stealth and mobility are just so huge on this build that the trade offs are barely present and the damage like wise is good enough without these things as well as being incredibly simple and effective with all the stealth and mobility on top.

    Please dont try to evade answering my question. So tell me once again. Which part of SA is supposed to be defensive? Why was it only picked after its defensive capabilities were nerfed, and it instead got several offensive traits added? Why is it that only the offensive traits get picked instead of defensive alternatives in the same slot? Go ahead, answer it.

    No, Daredevil is taken because its more damage than DA. There is no trade-off, DA just adds less damage because it was nerfed. Thats why when DA did provide more damage, you picked it over Daredevil. Because the additional mobility of dash is pretty minor considering you have shortbow 5. There is no additional stealth. Full stop. You could make hidden thief and concealing restoration both do nothing for stealth, and people would still pick SA 100% of the time, because those traits are irrelevant as they are. You pick SA for damage.

    No ones going to answer your question. It’s not the point of a forum. I know you think calling ppl out with your gold facts is cool, but I see no need since this isn’t a thread for that. Feel free to disagree with the op though

    I will give him answer for you :D

    @UNOwen.7132
    1 Concealing restoration -> 2s stealth on healing skill use

    1 second. The currently used healing skill is Hide in Shadows. This trait does basically nothing.

    2 Hidden thief -> stealing grants stealth ( 3s ), deception skills reduced recharge -> that includes ( healing skill for stealth/healing, shadowstep for condi cleanse, 2x stunbreake and mobility along with BP for another Stunbreake and stealth )

    Used for quick backstabs mid-combat. The cooldown reaction is nice, but its not really defensive, since you dont use them twice in a single fight.

    3 meld with shadows -> movespeed in stealth

    Pointless since you already max out on swiftness and rarely stealth up while still in combat (And you dont stay in combat for long even if you were still suffering from the reduced speed since those rare situations are when you already disengaged but havent broken the in-combat thing yet).

    4 Spider venom -> steal hp 650 each time you stealth

    At the start of the fight where the healing goes completely to waste. Used exclusively for damage.

    5 Shadow siphoning -> another 500 siphon from stealth

    At the start of the fight where the healing goes completely to waste. Used exclusively for damage.

    6 Boonrip and fear.

    Well, boonrip or fear. Its a utility trait used for offense.

    Legit every single trait gives mobility or utility or healing. You pretend its take for the damage since siphons hit for 1k out of stealth every time, its chip damage that adds up but SA is made for utility.

    And yet, the only traits its picked for are leeching venoms, shadow siphoning and to a lesser degree rending shade. The former 2 are exclusively damage traits, since the healing gets wasted while youre at full hp. SA may conceptually be a utility/defensive traitline, but its picked as a damage traitline with every defensive trait being completely ignored. If you wanted defense, youd use Flickering Shadows, not leeching venoms. And yet, no one ever does. Its a similar concept to Valor for burning guard. Its supposed to be a defensive traitline, and you even pick one defensive trait as burn guard. But you pick the traitline purely for Permeating Wrath. A damage trait.

    1. Wrong, it gives a total of 2 becuz the trait that gives +1 sec to all stealth skills 2.) Wrong. It’ll reduce your defensive cds and gives stealth which is defensive. You’ll see streamers like bluri use it all the time for defense or just stealth. 3.) Wrong. It gives more MS than swiftness, which is useful. Again I see players like bluri use stealth all the time just for the MS increase. 4.) Wrong. It gives up to 2 poison stacks. Which is useful to prevent healing and for sustain + damage that wouldn’t be present without the siphon trait since your power 5.) wrong. You even pointed out stealth is mid combat yet this isn’t for sustain? You contradicting yourself. 6.) Yeah. But the other 2 options for grandmaster are still very common and the other most used 1 is purely sustain.

    Why ruin the formatting, cmon. Lets see. 1) thats a seperate trait, dont conflate 2 traits. Also still not useful. 2) the reduction in CD is nice, but it will rarely end up used for defense. Also, stealth is offensive, not defensive. The stealth on steal is used pretty much only to either A, get a quick backstab in combat, or B, to prolong your stealth out of combat to burst with a backstab. 3) movement speed has a max cap. Out of combat, that max cap is 400, which is reached with Swiftness. The swiftness you have permanently. So the movement speed does absolutely nothing. 4) If you cared just for the poison, DA has you covered. You pick it for damage. 5) I didnt. I pointed out specifically stealth isnt used mid-combat other than exactly with hidden thief. 6) theyre very uncommon. They get picked, but not much.

    7.) wrong. You’ve probably been spending to much time just attacking golems if you think this trait line is for damage. Considering that a whole match you are constantly using stealth whenever out of combat and even going into and out of stealth in combat. If you go a whole match staying at full hp the whole time you are either already winning by a lot of just being a decap bot or afk

    You use stealth out of combat, correct. This however is accomplished without any benefit from SA, as the stealth you use does not get increased duration (combo finishers dont count as skills) and the movement speed is wasted due to the cap. You do not go in and out of stealth in combat. The only time you enter stealth in-combat is either hidden thief backstab, or HiS/Blinding powder. In all 3 cases you exit stealth ASAP, so you do not gain any benefit from SA either, other than possibly some healing and obviously damage. Except, even healing-wise, if you want that, Mug completely outpaces all healing SA provides. The traitline is for damage.

    But let me just ask you one very simple question. If Shadow Siphoning and Leeching Venoms were both removed from the traitline (lets say venoms gets put in DA, and Siphoning just gets removed), and get replaced by very strong defensive traits. Do you think the traitline would be picked? I know the answer, but lets see what you think.

    Stealth by definitiontion is defensive. cautious and surreptitious action or movement. Cautious movements are not generally offensive. You clearly have the entire role of thief confused and for some reason you seem be to be out of combat 24-7 and yet going to backstab ppl. Again you are probably staying up late farming bots if that’s the case.

  • Dantheman.3589Dantheman.3589 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Shiyo.3578 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:
    I think thief damage is fairly busted. The dp build is almost entirely specced for mobility, stealth and sustain- granted it uses berserker amulet but it still hits insanely hard granted what it’s specced for. It can get by just spamming backstabs and heartseekers etc which I’ve seen hit like 6-7k per at times. It’s not 100% necessary as some suggest, but it might as well be since it has no boundaries due to mobility and stealth and has instant high impact and also insanely high passive impact due to the idea that “o they can stealth for 10s and get across the map in that time”.

    Yes, thief damage is a huge problem. The fact they can run zerker and still have 15k hp due to daredevil is one of the issues.

    Its not, its quite low.

    UNOwen I recommend you play other classes for a few months so you can get a better perspective on why people(including top players) think thief is the best class in the game next to holo.

    I have been playing core Engineer and only core engineer for about a year now. I know why thief is good, but its the same thing its always been. Thief is not "the best class next to holo" (especially because Scrapper is arguably better than Holo as is). Thief is a mandatory 1-of due to its superior mobility that makes up for its inferior everything else. But you never want more than one thief on your team, else you will lose. Does that sound like a best class to you?

    The truth is that Thieves damage is pretty pathetic. Its enough to win +1s, but you need very little to win +1s. If you compared it to any other roamer, every single one blows thief out of the water. Same with defense, same with CC, same with utility. But it doesnt matter because Thief gets to the +1s fast than anyone else. Thats also why, if you took away shortbow 5, thief would instantly become unplayable. Because suddenly thief doesnt get to them faster than anyone else. And then its inferior everything else just makes it trash tier.

    Is that why legendary rated streamers have been calling thief “the most busted ranked carry next to holo”. This obsession over shortbow 5 is incredibly bizarre too, but u also think thief’s team fight with short bow and swap to dp to decap.

    Yes, the obsession with the one weapon skill all theif mains have known for year defines their class and is literally the only reason it functions is "bizarre". Also, why are you just saying a simple truth as if its supposed to mean anything?

    No that skill does not define the class neither does the short bow weapon it’s self. What thief mains say about shortbow is that it’s mandatory- saying just 1 skill in a mandatory weapon defines the class is a huge falsification. Considering have a weapon besides short bow is also mandatory means that short bow it’s self doesn’t define thief let alone 1 skill. Again there are no high rated thief’s that I’ve ever seen that say that nor anyone on metabattle or on streams. Most would say that’s actually bizarre in my experience.

    Of course it defines the class, and by extension so does shortbow. Now you mightve tuned out when people were discussing it, but thieves say that its mandatory because of shortbow 5, and shortbow is the reason thief is viable. The second weapon is honestly not that important. Thats why thieves change their main weapon between builds, change everything around, but one thing stays unchanged always. Shortbow is the second weapon you use, and shortbow 5 is why youre viable. Also many high rated thieves have said this multiple times, and metabattle says that thief is picked primarily for its insane mobility, which is synonymous with shortbow 5. No, what people would say is bizarre, is acting like shortbow 5 isnt the defining aspect of thief. What youre doing right now.

    But just for fun, try the following: Play thief without ever using shortbow 5. You can keep shortbow if you want, but no shortbow 5. And do it in a MAT to ensure that the competition is good. See how effective you will be. Spoiler: Youll be useless. There is a reason why Thief was the worst class in 2v2/3v3, and that reason is because shortbow 5, their defining skill, isnt useful in it.

    No there are no high rated thief’s that say that. Metabattle does not say it either, in fact the builds are named after the main hand weapon which isn’t shortbow becuz short now is a utility weapon not the offensive one that defines the build. The metabattle moderator has said before that short bow mandatory just like I said and like every high rated thief says. Maybe u got some random person on the forum to agree with you but no there are no high rated thief’s that say and I’m telling you that as probably the highest rated thief in this discussion at least on NA since I don’t know everyone here from Eu

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 6, 2020

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:
    I think thief damage is fairly busted. The dp build is almost entirely specced for mobility, stealth and sustain- granted it uses berserker amulet but it still hits insanely hard granted what it’s specced for. It can get by just spamming backstabs and heartseekers etc which I’ve seen hit like 6-7k per at times. It’s not 100% necessary as some suggest, but it might as well be since it has no boundaries due to mobility and stealth and has instant high impact and also insanely high passive impact due to the idea that “o they can stealth for 10s and get across the map in that time”.

    Its specced almost entirely for damage. You pick Daredevil because its the traitline that gives the most damage (after DA, the traitline previously picked over it, was nerfed hard). You pick SA because its the most reliable damage (it does basically nothing for your sustain, especially now that people are using hidden thief). And you pick Trickery because its mandatory (though it also gives a lot of damage). And ontop of that it runs Berserkers amulet.

    And for how all-in it goes on damage, it hits pretty poor. Backstabs on a squishy class hit for 5k. If the enemy has any toughness, it hits for less. Heartseeker can hit for 5.5k on a squishy class at <25%, less on toughness again. Thats very little. I do close to that damage on core engineer just using grenades. While actually picking an entire traitline purely for defense (Id hit harder if I used Firearms, but core engineer cant run away with ease, so I cant exactly lower my survivability to as low as thieves).

    Shadow arts is and has been a defensive trait line since gw1 are u such an online miracle that you can change the definition of the trait lines since before the game was created? I think not, there are some damage modifiers but the #1 reason for these lines are mobility(DrD) intiative(trickery) and stealth(shadow arts). None of these traitlines are specifically taken to improve damage it’s just in the long run they add some, mostly from modifiers though that are not even close to 100% guaranteed to be present.

    Shadow arts was a defensive traitline. Keyword WAS. While it was a defensive traitline, it was largely unpicked. Then a while back they changed it around a bit, and now its not used as a defensive traitline. In fact, the reason its picked now is because of shadow siphoning, leeching venoms and Rending Shade. 3 traits with no real defensive value. In fact, lets look beyond that. The remaining 3 traits are the 2 minor traits (stealth when using healing skill. Redundant since HiS is used anyway. Provides no defense. Increased stealth duration from skills. Also pointless, no defense.) And Hidden Thief, which gives Stealth on steal (used for quick backstabs) and cd reduction. So tell me, where in this pile of traits do you see any defense. Its used as a damage traitline with minor utility.

    Daredevil is picked 100% for damage, dash is just gravy. Remember, it wasnt so long ago that the meta thief build was DA/SA/Trickery. The only reason Daredevil was picked again over DA was because DAs damage was hard nerfed, and now Daredevil gives more damage. If Daredevil was picked for mobility, why was it ignored in favour of DA? And Trickery is the only one that isnt picked for damage. Its picked because its mandatory for initiative. But even so it provides a decent chunk of damage. In order, the #1 reason to pick these traitlines is damage (Shadow Arts), damage (Daredevil) and initiative with a bit of damage (Trickery). Its more damage-focused than most classes.

    Daredevil is taken for mobility and shadow arts for stealth. Comparing to an old build is well redundant since that build was used for like a month and basically absent for like 5 years. Shadow arts is still by definition a defensive traitline. It has options of stealth or defensive traits and then life shipon which is still fairly defensive. Only offensive one is basically rending shade which isn’t always picked so yeah no.

    You cant just repeat a wrong thing until it turns true. It will stay false. Shadow Arts is not taken for defense, or stealth, its taken for damage. Why do you think it went unpicked entirely (Even while providing boosts to stealth) all the way up until they added leeching venoms and shadow siphoning? In fact, lets take a closer look, shall we? It does actually have a few defensive traits. Shadow's Embrace. No longer picked. Flickering Shadows, not picked (despite being a 33% damage reduction while revealed). Shadow Saviour, not picked. Instead, its only picked for traits that have no defensive value and are purely offensive. Like the siphon traits (that you only proc when you engage a fight 95% of the time, and as such the healing goes to waste). Shadow Siphoning is an offensive trait. Leeching Venoms is the only offensive trait in a slot that has 2 defensive traits, and its picked 100% of the time. Rending Shade is offensive and picked 90+% of the time. Hidden thief is offensive and used 90+% of the time.

    I dont know how I can simplify it further for you, but the simple fact is that its purely taken as a damage traitline. Oh and as for the "oh its picked for stealth thing", D/Ps primary stealth source is black powder + heartseeker, which doesnt benefit from SA. Meld with Shadows theoretically would, but you already have swiftness. The stealth on heal does nothing, since your heal stealths anyway (And you only use your heal in combat, where you want to drop stealth ASAP, so the duration does nothing). The increased stealth from skills does nothing for similar reasons.

    As for Daredevil my point still stands. Of course I can compare it to the build that immediately preceded it. Especially because that build followed from a Daredevil build, where Daredevil was dropped in favour of DA because DA did more damage. And of course it was absent for 5 years, Shadow Arts used to be a defensive traitline after all. Which meant no one ever picked it. But after it was changed to a damage traitline, it replaced DA originally, before people figured out "hey, DA also adds more damage than Daredevil, so lets just drop Daredevil". But then DA was nerfed hard, and people went back to Daredevil. Mind you, when the patch that obliterated DA dropped, Sindrener explained why DD D/P is now recommended over DA D/P, and he specifically said its because DA was nerfed so much it just does less damage. Dash is just gravy.

    You didn’t simplify anything just make it more complicated by mixing stuff up from over the course of many years. And no daredevil isn’t taken for more damage it’s taken becuz the additional mobility is very worth the trade off of slightly higher damage and yeah I’ve seen sinderners argument he said even if you took DA it would only ever be slightly more damage. The additional stealth and mobility are just so huge on this build that the trade offs are barely present and the damage like wise is good enough without these things as well as being incredibly simple and effective with all the stealth and mobility on top.

    Please dont try to evade answering my question. So tell me once again. Which part of SA is supposed to be defensive? Why was it only picked after its defensive capabilities were nerfed, and it instead got several offensive traits added? Why is it that only the offensive traits get picked instead of defensive alternatives in the same slot? Go ahead, answer it.

    No, Daredevil is taken because its more damage than DA. There is no trade-off, DA just adds less damage because it was nerfed. Thats why when DA did provide more damage, you picked it over Daredevil. Because the additional mobility of dash is pretty minor considering you have shortbow 5. There is no additional stealth. Full stop. You could make hidden thief and concealing restoration both do nothing for stealth, and people would still pick SA 100% of the time, because those traits are irrelevant as they are. You pick SA for damage.

    No ones going to answer your question. It’s not the point of a forum. I know you think calling ppl out with your gold facts is cool, but I see no need since this isn’t a thread for that. Feel free to disagree with the op though

    I will give him answer for you :D

    @UNOwen.7132
    1 Concealing restoration -> 2s stealth on healing skill use

    1 second. The currently used healing skill is Hide in Shadows. This trait does basically nothing.

    2 Hidden thief -> stealing grants stealth ( 3s ), deception skills reduced recharge -> that includes ( healing skill for stealth/healing, shadowstep for condi cleanse, 2x stunbreake and mobility along with BP for another Stunbreake and stealth )

    Used for quick backstabs mid-combat. The cooldown reaction is nice, but its not really defensive, since you dont use them twice in a single fight.

    3 meld with shadows -> movespeed in stealth

    Pointless since you already max out on swiftness and rarely stealth up while still in combat (And you dont stay in combat for long even if you were still suffering from the reduced speed since those rare situations are when you already disengaged but havent broken the in-combat thing yet).

    4 Spider venom -> steal hp 650 each time you stealth

    At the start of the fight where the healing goes completely to waste. Used exclusively for damage.

    5 Shadow siphoning -> another 500 siphon from stealth

    At the start of the fight where the healing goes completely to waste. Used exclusively for damage.

    6 Boonrip and fear.

    Well, boonrip or fear. Its a utility trait used for offense.

    Legit every single trait gives mobility or utility or healing. You pretend its take for the damage since siphons hit for 1k out of stealth every time, its chip damage that adds up but SA is made for utility.

    And yet, the only traits its picked for are leeching venoms, shadow siphoning and to a lesser degree rending shade. The former 2 are exclusively damage traits, since the healing gets wasted while youre at full hp. SA may conceptually be a utility/defensive traitline, but its picked as a damage traitline with every defensive trait being completely ignored. If you wanted defense, youd use Flickering Shadows, not leeching venoms. And yet, no one ever does. Its a similar concept to Valor for burning guard. Its supposed to be a defensive traitline, and you even pick one defensive trait as burn guard. But you pick the traitline purely for Permeating Wrath. A damage trait.

    1. Wrong, it gives a total of 2 becuz the trait that gives +1 sec to all stealth skills 2.) Wrong. It’ll reduce your defensive cds and gives stealth which is defensive. You’ll see streamers like bluri use it all the time for defense or just stealth. 3.) Wrong. It gives more MS than swiftness, which is useful. Again I see players like bluri use stealth all the time just for the MS increase. 4.) Wrong. It gives up to 2 poison stacks. Which is useful to prevent healing and for sustain + damage that wouldn’t be present without the siphon trait since your power 5.) wrong. You even pointed out stealth is mid combat yet this isn’t for sustain? You contradicting yourself. 6.) Yeah. But the other 2 options for grandmaster are still very common and the other most used 1 is purely sustain.

    Why ruin the formatting, cmon. Lets see. 1) thats a seperate trait, dont conflate 2 traits. Also still not useful. 2) the reduction in CD is nice, but it will rarely end up used for defense. Also, stealth is offensive, not defensive. The stealth on steal is used pretty much only to either A, get a quick backstab in combat, or B, to prolong your stealth out of combat to burst with a backstab. 3) movement speed has a max cap. Out of combat, that max cap is 400, which is reached with Swiftness. The swiftness you have permanently. So the movement speed does absolutely nothing. 4) If you cared just for the poison, DA has you covered. You pick it for damage. 5) I didnt. I pointed out specifically stealth isnt used mid-combat other than exactly with hidden thief. 6) theyre very uncommon. They get picked, but not much.

    7.) wrong. You’ve probably been spending to much time just attacking golems if you think this trait line is for damage. Considering that a whole match you are constantly using stealth whenever out of combat and even going into and out of stealth in combat. If you go a whole match staying at full hp the whole time you are either already winning by a lot of just being a decap bot or afk

    You use stealth out of combat, correct. This however is accomplished without any benefit from SA, as the stealth you use does not get increased duration (combo finishers dont count as skills) and the movement speed is wasted due to the cap. You do not go in and out of stealth in combat. The only time you enter stealth in-combat is either hidden thief backstab, or HiS/Blinding powder. In all 3 cases you exit stealth ASAP, so you do not gain any benefit from SA either, other than possibly some healing and obviously damage. Except, even healing-wise, if you want that, Mug completely outpaces all healing SA provides. The traitline is for damage.

    But let me just ask you one very simple question. If Shadow Siphoning and Leeching Venoms were both removed from the traitline (lets say venoms gets put in DA, and Siphoning just gets removed), and get replaced by very strong defensive traits. Do you think the traitline would be picked? I know the answer, but lets see what you think.

    Steal by definitiontion is defensive. cautious and surreptitious action or movement. Cautious movements are not generally offensive. You clearly have the entire role of thief confused and for some reason you seem be to be out of combat 24-7 and yet going to backstab ppl. Again you are probably staying up late farming bots if that’s the case.

    >Steal by definition is defensive

    What? No seriously, what? How is teleporting ontop of an enemy in order to backstab them "defensive"? Are you trolling me? Am I being trolled? Ive seen your bad takes before, but this is the first time I see a take where I cannot even begin to understand what your logic is, for lack of a better word.

    The role of theif is simple. Decap and +1. In the former case, you dont fight. In the latter case, you quickly help your teammate take them out before moving on. In neither case do you fight for long periods of time. On the off-chance that does happen, you switch to shortbow to lay down some AoEs. So where is it supposed to help?

    Also, answer my question. If the damage traits were replaced by very strong defensive traits, would thieves still pick Shadow Arts?

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Shiyo.3578 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:
    I think thief damage is fairly busted. The dp build is almost entirely specced for mobility, stealth and sustain- granted it uses berserker amulet but it still hits insanely hard granted what it’s specced for. It can get by just spamming backstabs and heartseekers etc which I’ve seen hit like 6-7k per at times. It’s not 100% necessary as some suggest, but it might as well be since it has no boundaries due to mobility and stealth and has instant high impact and also insanely high passive impact due to the idea that “o they can stealth for 10s and get across the map in that time”.

    Yes, thief damage is a huge problem. The fact they can run zerker and still have 15k hp due to daredevil is one of the issues.

    Its not, its quite low.

    UNOwen I recommend you play other classes for a few months so you can get a better perspective on why people(including top players) think thief is the best class in the game next to holo.

    I have been playing core Engineer and only core engineer for about a year now. I know why thief is good, but its the same thing its always been. Thief is not "the best class next to holo" (especially because Scrapper is arguably better than Holo as is). Thief is a mandatory 1-of due to its superior mobility that makes up for its inferior everything else. But you never want more than one thief on your team, else you will lose. Does that sound like a best class to you?

    The truth is that Thieves damage is pretty pathetic. Its enough to win +1s, but you need very little to win +1s. If you compared it to any other roamer, every single one blows thief out of the water. Same with defense, same with CC, same with utility. But it doesnt matter because Thief gets to the +1s fast than anyone else. Thats also why, if you took away shortbow 5, thief would instantly become unplayable. Because suddenly thief doesnt get to them faster than anyone else. And then its inferior everything else just makes it trash tier.

    Is that why legendary rated streamers have been calling thief “the most busted ranked carry next to holo”. This obsession over shortbow 5 is incredibly bizarre too, but u also think thief’s team fight with short bow and swap to dp to decap.

    Yes, the obsession with the one weapon skill all theif mains have known for year defines their class and is literally the only reason it functions is "bizarre". Also, why are you just saying a simple truth as if its supposed to mean anything?

    No that skill does not define the class neither does the short bow weapon it’s self. What thief mains say about shortbow is that it’s mandatory- saying just 1 skill in a mandatory weapon defines the class is a huge falsification. Considering have a weapon besides short bow is also mandatory means that short bow it’s self doesn’t define thief let alone 1 skill. Again there are no high rated thief’s that I’ve ever seen that say that nor anyone on metabattle or on streams. Most would say that’s actually bizarre in my experience.

    Of course it defines the class, and by extension so does shortbow. Now you mightve tuned out when people were discussing it, but thieves say that its mandatory because of shortbow 5, and shortbow is the reason thief is viable. The second weapon is honestly not that important. Thats why thieves change their main weapon between builds, change everything around, but one thing stays unchanged always. Shortbow is the second weapon you use, and shortbow 5 is why youre viable. Also many high rated thieves have said this multiple times, and metabattle says that thief is picked primarily for its insane mobility, which is synonymous with shortbow 5. No, what people would say is bizarre, is acting like shortbow 5 isnt the defining aspect of thief. What youre doing right now.

    But just for fun, try the following: Play thief without ever using shortbow 5. You can keep shortbow if you want, but no shortbow 5. And do it in a MAT to ensure that the competition is good. See how effective you will be. Spoiler: Youll be useless. There is a reason why Thief was the worst class in 2v2/3v3, and that reason is because shortbow 5, their defining skill, isnt useful in it.

    No there are no high rated thief’s that say that. Metabattle does not say it either, in fact the builds are named after the main hand weapon which isn’t shortbow becuz short now is a utility weapon not the offensive one that defines the build. The metabattle moderator has said before that short bow mandatory just like I said and like every high rated thief says. Maybe u got some random person on the forum to agree with you but no there are no high rated thief’s that say and I’m telling you that as probably the highest rated thief in this discussion at least on NA since I don’t know everyone here from Eu

    Ok now I am convinced you are just hard trolling here. Because I cant believe that even you would believe the nonsense youre writing here. Everyone says it (except you apparently). The builds arent named after shortbow because every build uses shortbow. Youd just have 4 thief builds called "shortbow thief" in that case. You dont see Ranger builds named after GS because every build uses GS, do you? Yes, shortbow is a utility weapon, but its that utility weapon that defines the entire class. Thief is picked because it moves faster than everyone else. It moves faster than everyone else because of shortbow 5. Thief is picked because of shortbow 5. The rest changes and doesnt really matter. Thief stays the same. A class defined by shortbow 5.

  • Dantheman.3589Dantheman.3589 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Shiyo.3578 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:
    I think thief damage is fairly busted. The dp build is almost entirely specced for mobility, stealth and sustain- granted it uses berserker amulet but it still hits insanely hard granted what it’s specced for. It can get by just spamming backstabs and heartseekers etc which I’ve seen hit like 6-7k per at times. It’s not 100% necessary as some suggest, but it might as well be since it has no boundaries due to mobility and stealth and has instant high impact and also insanely high passive impact due to the idea that “o they can stealth for 10s and get across the map in that time”.

    Yes, thief damage is a huge problem. The fact they can run zerker and still have 15k hp due to daredevil is one of the issues.

    Its not, its quite low.

    UNOwen I recommend you play other classes for a few months so you can get a better perspective on why people(including top players) think thief is the best class in the game next to holo.

    I have been playing core Engineer and only core engineer for about a year now. I know why thief is good, but its the same thing its always been. Thief is not "the best class next to holo" (especially because Scrapper is arguably better than Holo as is). Thief is a mandatory 1-of due to its superior mobility that makes up for its inferior everything else. But you never want more than one thief on your team, else you will lose. Does that sound like a best class to you?

    The truth is that Thieves damage is pretty pathetic. Its enough to win +1s, but you need very little to win +1s. If you compared it to any other roamer, every single one blows thief out of the water. Same with defense, same with CC, same with utility. But it doesnt matter because Thief gets to the +1s fast than anyone else. Thats also why, if you took away shortbow 5, thief would instantly become unplayable. Because suddenly thief doesnt get to them faster than anyone else. And then its inferior everything else just makes it trash tier.

    Is that why legendary rated streamers have been calling thief “the most busted ranked carry next to holo”. This obsession over shortbow 5 is incredibly bizarre too, but u also think thief’s team fight with short bow and swap to dp to decap.

    Yes, the obsession with the one weapon skill all theif mains have known for year defines their class and is literally the only reason it functions is "bizarre". Also, why are you just saying a simple truth as if its supposed to mean anything?

    No that skill does not define the class neither does the short bow weapon it’s self. What thief mains say about shortbow is that it’s mandatory- saying just 1 skill in a mandatory weapon defines the class is a huge falsification. Considering have a weapon besides short bow is also mandatory means that short bow it’s self doesn’t define thief let alone 1 skill. Again there are no high rated thief’s that I’ve ever seen that say that nor anyone on metabattle or on streams. Most would say that’s actually bizarre in my experience.

    Of course it defines the class, and by extension so does shortbow. Now you mightve tuned out when people were discussing it, but thieves say that its mandatory because of shortbow 5, and shortbow is the reason thief is viable. The second weapon is honestly not that important. Thats why thieves change their main weapon between builds, change everything around, but one thing stays unchanged always. Shortbow is the second weapon you use, and shortbow 5 is why youre viable. Also many high rated thieves have said this multiple times, and metabattle says that thief is picked primarily for its insane mobility, which is synonymous with shortbow 5. No, what people would say is bizarre, is acting like shortbow 5 isnt the defining aspect of thief. What youre doing right now.

    But just for fun, try the following: Play thief without ever using shortbow 5. You can keep shortbow if you want, but no shortbow 5. And do it in a MAT to ensure that the competition is good. See how effective you will be. Spoiler: Youll be useless. There is a reason why Thief was the worst class in 2v2/3v3, and that reason is because shortbow 5, their defining skill, isnt useful in it.

    No there are no high rated thief’s that say that. Metabattle does not say it either, in fact the builds are named after the main hand weapon which isn’t shortbow becuz short now is a utility weapon not the offensive one that defines the build. The metabattle moderator has said before that short bow mandatory just like I said and like every high rated thief says. Maybe u got some random person on the forum to agree with you but no there are no high rated thief’s that say and I’m telling you that as probably the highest rated thief in this discussion at least on NA since I don’t know everyone here from Eu

    Ok now I am convinced you are just hard trolling here. Because I cant believe that even you would believe the nonsense youre writing here. Everyone says it (except you apparently). The builds arent named after shortbow because every build uses shortbow. Youd just have 4 thief builds called "shortbow thief" in that case. You dont see Ranger builds named after GS because every build uses GS, do you? Yes, shortbow is a utility weapon, but its that utility weapon that defines the entire class. Thief is picked because it moves faster than everyone else. It moves faster than everyone else because of shortbow 5. Thief is picked because of shortbow 5. The rest changes and doesnt really matter. Thief stays the same. A class defined by shortbow 5.

    If that’s what everyone says than get 1 high rated thief in here to agree. But no one would would they? No where on metabattle did it say that. No one who rates a build says “it doesn’t matter what weapon you take as long as you have short bow it’s meta”. There has been like 1 shortbow meta, never since than. Rn it’s a dp DrD meta. Not a short bow stealth meta.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Shiyo.3578 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:
    I think thief damage is fairly busted. The dp build is almost entirely specced for mobility, stealth and sustain- granted it uses berserker amulet but it still hits insanely hard granted what it’s specced for. It can get by just spamming backstabs and heartseekers etc which I’ve seen hit like 6-7k per at times. It’s not 100% necessary as some suggest, but it might as well be since it has no boundaries due to mobility and stealth and has instant high impact and also insanely high passive impact due to the idea that “o they can stealth for 10s and get across the map in that time”.

    Yes, thief damage is a huge problem. The fact they can run zerker and still have 15k hp due to daredevil is one of the issues.

    Its not, its quite low.

    UNOwen I recommend you play other classes for a few months so you can get a better perspective on why people(including top players) think thief is the best class in the game next to holo.

    I have been playing core Engineer and only core engineer for about a year now. I know why thief is good, but its the same thing its always been. Thief is not "the best class next to holo" (especially because Scrapper is arguably better than Holo as is). Thief is a mandatory 1-of due to its superior mobility that makes up for its inferior everything else. But you never want more than one thief on your team, else you will lose. Does that sound like a best class to you?

    The truth is that Thieves damage is pretty pathetic. Its enough to win +1s, but you need very little to win +1s. If you compared it to any other roamer, every single one blows thief out of the water. Same with defense, same with CC, same with utility. But it doesnt matter because Thief gets to the +1s fast than anyone else. Thats also why, if you took away shortbow 5, thief would instantly become unplayable. Because suddenly thief doesnt get to them faster than anyone else. And then its inferior everything else just makes it trash tier.

    Is that why legendary rated streamers have been calling thief “the most busted ranked carry next to holo”. This obsession over shortbow 5 is incredibly bizarre too, but u also think thief’s team fight with short bow and swap to dp to decap.

    Yes, the obsession with the one weapon skill all theif mains have known for year defines their class and is literally the only reason it functions is "bizarre". Also, why are you just saying a simple truth as if its supposed to mean anything?

    No that skill does not define the class neither does the short bow weapon it’s self. What thief mains say about shortbow is that it’s mandatory- saying just 1 skill in a mandatory weapon defines the class is a huge falsification. Considering have a weapon besides short bow is also mandatory means that short bow it’s self doesn’t define thief let alone 1 skill. Again there are no high rated thief’s that I’ve ever seen that say that nor anyone on metabattle or on streams. Most would say that’s actually bizarre in my experience.

    Of course it defines the class, and by extension so does shortbow. Now you mightve tuned out when people were discussing it, but thieves say that its mandatory because of shortbow 5, and shortbow is the reason thief is viable. The second weapon is honestly not that important. Thats why thieves change their main weapon between builds, change everything around, but one thing stays unchanged always. Shortbow is the second weapon you use, and shortbow 5 is why youre viable. Also many high rated thieves have said this multiple times, and metabattle says that thief is picked primarily for its insane mobility, which is synonymous with shortbow 5. No, what people would say is bizarre, is acting like shortbow 5 isnt the defining aspect of thief. What youre doing right now.

    But just for fun, try the following: Play thief without ever using shortbow 5. You can keep shortbow if you want, but no shortbow 5. And do it in a MAT to ensure that the competition is good. See how effective you will be. Spoiler: Youll be useless. There is a reason why Thief was the worst class in 2v2/3v3, and that reason is because shortbow 5, their defining skill, isnt useful in it.

    No there are no high rated thief’s that say that. Metabattle does not say it either, in fact the builds are named after the main hand weapon which isn’t shortbow becuz short now is a utility weapon not the offensive one that defines the build. The metabattle moderator has said before that short bow mandatory just like I said and like every high rated thief says. Maybe u got some random person on the forum to agree with you but no there are no high rated thief’s that say and I’m telling you that as probably the highest rated thief in this discussion at least on NA since I don’t know everyone here from Eu

    Ok now I am convinced you are just hard trolling here. Because I cant believe that even you would believe the nonsense youre writing here. Everyone says it (except you apparently). The builds arent named after shortbow because every build uses shortbow. Youd just have 4 thief builds called "shortbow thief" in that case. You dont see Ranger builds named after GS because every build uses GS, do you? Yes, shortbow is a utility weapon, but its that utility weapon that defines the entire class. Thief is picked because it moves faster than everyone else. It moves faster than everyone else because of shortbow 5. Thief is picked because of shortbow 5. The rest changes and doesnt really matter. Thief stays the same. A class defined by shortbow 5.

    If that’s what everyone says than get 1 high rated thief in here to agree. But no one would would they? No where on metabattle did it say that. No one who rates a build says “it doesn’t matter what weapon you take as long as you have short bow it’s meta”. There has been like 1 shortbow meta, never since than. Rn it’s a dp DrD meta. Not a short bow stealth meta.

    Of course not, but lets take a look at the flipside. "It doesn't matter what weapon you take, as long as you dont have shortbow, you will be useless". I think even you will have trouble saying that this isnt the undeniable truth. And then, if youre useless if you dont have a specific weapon (and also useless if you dont use a specific skill on that specific weapon), Id call that pretty defining. Thats what everyone says. Im not sure if youre trolling or trying to use semantical tricks to cover up your mistake, but either way, youre wrong.

  • Dantheman.3589Dantheman.3589 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Shiyo.3578 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:
    I think thief damage is fairly busted. The dp build is almost entirely specced for mobility, stealth and sustain- granted it uses berserker amulet but it still hits insanely hard granted what it’s specced for. It can get by just spamming backstabs and heartseekers etc which I’ve seen hit like 6-7k per at times. It’s not 100% necessary as some suggest, but it might as well be since it has no boundaries due to mobility and stealth and has instant high impact and also insanely high passive impact due to the idea that “o they can stealth for 10s and get across the map in that time”.

    Yes, thief damage is a huge problem. The fact they can run zerker and still have 15k hp due to daredevil is one of the issues.

    Its not, its quite low.

    UNOwen I recommend you play other classes for a few months so you can get a better perspective on why people(including top players) think thief is the best class in the game next to holo.

    I have been playing core Engineer and only core engineer for about a year now. I know why thief is good, but its the same thing its always been. Thief is not "the best class next to holo" (especially because Scrapper is arguably better than Holo as is). Thief is a mandatory 1-of due to its superior mobility that makes up for its inferior everything else. But you never want more than one thief on your team, else you will lose. Does that sound like a best class to you?

    The truth is that Thieves damage is pretty pathetic. Its enough to win +1s, but you need very little to win +1s. If you compared it to any other roamer, every single one blows thief out of the water. Same with defense, same with CC, same with utility. But it doesnt matter because Thief gets to the +1s fast than anyone else. Thats also why, if you took away shortbow 5, thief would instantly become unplayable. Because suddenly thief doesnt get to them faster than anyone else. And then its inferior everything else just makes it trash tier.

    Is that why legendary rated streamers have been calling thief “the most busted ranked carry next to holo”. This obsession over shortbow 5 is incredibly bizarre too, but u also think thief’s team fight with short bow and swap to dp to decap.

    Yes, the obsession with the one weapon skill all theif mains have known for year defines their class and is literally the only reason it functions is "bizarre". Also, why are you just saying a simple truth as if its supposed to mean anything?

    No that skill does not define the class neither does the short bow weapon it’s self. What thief mains say about shortbow is that it’s mandatory- saying just 1 skill in a mandatory weapon defines the class is a huge falsification. Considering have a weapon besides short bow is also mandatory means that short bow it’s self doesn’t define thief let alone 1 skill. Again there are no high rated thief’s that I’ve ever seen that say that nor anyone on metabattle or on streams. Most would say that’s actually bizarre in my experience.

    Of course it defines the class, and by extension so does shortbow. Now you mightve tuned out when people were discussing it, but thieves say that its mandatory because of shortbow 5, and shortbow is the reason thief is viable. The second weapon is honestly not that important. Thats why thieves change their main weapon between builds, change everything around, but one thing stays unchanged always. Shortbow is the second weapon you use, and shortbow 5 is why youre viable. Also many high rated thieves have said this multiple times, and metabattle says that thief is picked primarily for its insane mobility, which is synonymous with shortbow 5. No, what people would say is bizarre, is acting like shortbow 5 isnt the defining aspect of thief. What youre doing right now.

    But just for fun, try the following: Play thief without ever using shortbow 5. You can keep shortbow if you want, but no shortbow 5. And do it in a MAT to ensure that the competition is good. See how effective you will be. Spoiler: Youll be useless. There is a reason why Thief was the worst class in 2v2/3v3, and that reason is because shortbow 5, their defining skill, isnt useful in it.

    No there are no high rated thief’s that say that. Metabattle does not say it either, in fact the builds are named after the main hand weapon which isn’t shortbow becuz short now is a utility weapon not the offensive one that defines the build. The metabattle moderator has said before that short bow mandatory just like I said and like every high rated thief says. Maybe u got some random person on the forum to agree with you but no there are no high rated thief’s that say and I’m telling you that as probably the highest rated thief in this discussion at least on NA since I don’t know everyone here from Eu

    Ok now I am convinced you are just hard trolling here. Because I cant believe that even you would believe the nonsense youre writing here. Everyone says it (except you apparently). The builds arent named after shortbow because every build uses shortbow. Youd just have 4 thief builds called "shortbow thief" in that case. You dont see Ranger builds named after GS because every build uses GS, do you? Yes, shortbow is a utility weapon, but its that utility weapon that defines the entire class. Thief is picked because it moves faster than everyone else. It moves faster than everyone else because of shortbow 5. Thief is picked because of shortbow 5. The rest changes and doesnt really matter. Thief stays the same. A class defined by shortbow 5.

    If that’s what everyone says than get 1 high rated thief in here to agree. But no one would would they? No where on metabattle did it say that. No one who rates a build says “it doesn’t matter what weapon you take as long as you have short bow it’s meta”. There has been like 1 shortbow meta, never since than. Rn it’s a dp DrD meta. Not a short bow stealth meta.

    Of course not, but lets take a look at the flipside. "It doesn't matter what weapon you take, as long as you dont have shortbow, you will be useless". I think even you will have trouble saying that this isnt the undeniable truth. And then, if youre useless if you dont have a specific weapon (and also useless if you dont use a specific skill on that specific weapon), Id call that pretty defining. Thats what everyone says. Im not sure if youre trolling or trying to use semantical tricks to cover up your mistake, but either way, youre wrong.

    No what that is is backwards logic. That’s why no thief main with a brain says that.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Shiyo.3578 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:
    I think thief damage is fairly busted. The dp build is almost entirely specced for mobility, stealth and sustain- granted it uses berserker amulet but it still hits insanely hard granted what it’s specced for. It can get by just spamming backstabs and heartseekers etc which I’ve seen hit like 6-7k per at times. It’s not 100% necessary as some suggest, but it might as well be since it has no boundaries due to mobility and stealth and has instant high impact and also insanely high passive impact due to the idea that “o they can stealth for 10s and get across the map in that time”.

    Yes, thief damage is a huge problem. The fact they can run zerker and still have 15k hp due to daredevil is one of the issues.

    Its not, its quite low.

    UNOwen I recommend you play other classes for a few months so you can get a better perspective on why people(including top players) think thief is the best class in the game next to holo.

    I have been playing core Engineer and only core engineer for about a year now. I know why thief is good, but its the same thing its always been. Thief is not "the best class next to holo" (especially because Scrapper is arguably better than Holo as is). Thief is a mandatory 1-of due to its superior mobility that makes up for its inferior everything else. But you never want more than one thief on your team, else you will lose. Does that sound like a best class to you?

    The truth is that Thieves damage is pretty pathetic. Its enough to win +1s, but you need very little to win +1s. If you compared it to any other roamer, every single one blows thief out of the water. Same with defense, same with CC, same with utility. But it doesnt matter because Thief gets to the +1s fast than anyone else. Thats also why, if you took away shortbow 5, thief would instantly become unplayable. Because suddenly thief doesnt get to them faster than anyone else. And then its inferior everything else just makes it trash tier.

    Is that why legendary rated streamers have been calling thief “the most busted ranked carry next to holo”. This obsession over shortbow 5 is incredibly bizarre too, but u also think thief’s team fight with short bow and swap to dp to decap.

    Yes, the obsession with the one weapon skill all theif mains have known for year defines their class and is literally the only reason it functions is "bizarre". Also, why are you just saying a simple truth as if its supposed to mean anything?

    No that skill does not define the class neither does the short bow weapon it’s self. What thief mains say about shortbow is that it’s mandatory- saying just 1 skill in a mandatory weapon defines the class is a huge falsification. Considering have a weapon besides short bow is also mandatory means that short bow it’s self doesn’t define thief let alone 1 skill. Again there are no high rated thief’s that I’ve ever seen that say that nor anyone on metabattle or on streams. Most would say that’s actually bizarre in my experience.

    Of course it defines the class, and by extension so does shortbow. Now you mightve tuned out when people were discussing it, but thieves say that its mandatory because of shortbow 5, and shortbow is the reason thief is viable. The second weapon is honestly not that important. Thats why thieves change their main weapon between builds, change everything around, but one thing stays unchanged always. Shortbow is the second weapon you use, and shortbow 5 is why youre viable. Also many high rated thieves have said this multiple times, and metabattle says that thief is picked primarily for its insane mobility, which is synonymous with shortbow 5. No, what people would say is bizarre, is acting like shortbow 5 isnt the defining aspect of thief. What youre doing right now.

    But just for fun, try the following: Play thief without ever using shortbow 5. You can keep shortbow if you want, but no shortbow 5. And do it in a MAT to ensure that the competition is good. See how effective you will be. Spoiler: Youll be useless. There is a reason why Thief was the worst class in 2v2/3v3, and that reason is because shortbow 5, their defining skill, isnt useful in it.

    No there are no high rated thief’s that say that. Metabattle does not say it either, in fact the builds are named after the main hand weapon which isn’t shortbow becuz short now is a utility weapon not the offensive one that defines the build. The metabattle moderator has said before that short bow mandatory just like I said and like every high rated thief says. Maybe u got some random person on the forum to agree with you but no there are no high rated thief’s that say and I’m telling you that as probably the highest rated thief in this discussion at least on NA since I don’t know everyone here from Eu

    Ok now I am convinced you are just hard trolling here. Because I cant believe that even you would believe the nonsense youre writing here. Everyone says it (except you apparently). The builds arent named after shortbow because every build uses shortbow. Youd just have 4 thief builds called "shortbow thief" in that case. You dont see Ranger builds named after GS because every build uses GS, do you? Yes, shortbow is a utility weapon, but its that utility weapon that defines the entire class. Thief is picked because it moves faster than everyone else. It moves faster than everyone else because of shortbow 5. Thief is picked because of shortbow 5. The rest changes and doesnt really matter. Thief stays the same. A class defined by shortbow 5.

    If that’s what everyone says than get 1 high rated thief in here to agree. But no one would would they? No where on metabattle did it say that. No one who rates a build says “it doesn’t matter what weapon you take as long as you have short bow it’s meta”. There has been like 1 shortbow meta, never since than. Rn it’s a dp DrD meta. Not a short bow stealth meta.

    Of course not, but lets take a look at the flipside. "It doesn't matter what weapon you take, as long as you dont have shortbow, you will be useless". I think even you will have trouble saying that this isnt the undeniable truth. And then, if youre useless if you dont have a specific weapon (and also useless if you dont use a specific skill on that specific weapon), Id call that pretty defining. Thats what everyone says. Im not sure if youre trolling or trying to use semantical tricks to cover up your mistake, but either way, youre wrong.

    No what that is is backwards logic. That’s why no thief main with a brain says that.

    Trolling it is then. No, its not "backwards logic", its just logic. What defines a class? The things it cannot go without. The things that make it at all viable. Thief is viable only with shortbow. The rest of the class changes, you can go for different traitlines, different weapons, different gear and runes. But you cannot go without shortbow 5. Thats why it defines thief. And thats why every thief main with a brain says that shortbow 5 defines thief. Well, every one that isnt trolling, I suppose.

    Also you have still not answered the SA question. If SA lost its damage traits and had them replaced with very strong defensive traits. Would thieves still pick SA? Go on.

  • Dantheman.3589Dantheman.3589 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Shiyo.3578 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:
    I think thief damage is fairly busted. The dp build is almost entirely specced for mobility, stealth and sustain- granted it uses berserker amulet but it still hits insanely hard granted what it’s specced for. It can get by just spamming backstabs and heartseekers etc which I’ve seen hit like 6-7k per at times. It’s not 100% necessary as some suggest, but it might as well be since it has no boundaries due to mobility and stealth and has instant high impact and also insanely high passive impact due to the idea that “o they can stealth for 10s and get across the map in that time”.

    Yes, thief damage is a huge problem. The fact they can run zerker and still have 15k hp due to daredevil is one of the issues.

    Its not, its quite low.

    UNOwen I recommend you play other classes for a few months so you can get a better perspective on why people(including top players) think thief is the best class in the game next to holo.

    I have been playing core Engineer and only core engineer for about a year now. I know why thief is good, but its the same thing its always been. Thief is not "the best class next to holo" (especially because Scrapper is arguably better than Holo as is). Thief is a mandatory 1-of due to its superior mobility that makes up for its inferior everything else. But you never want more than one thief on your team, else you will lose. Does that sound like a best class to you?

    The truth is that Thieves damage is pretty pathetic. Its enough to win +1s, but you need very little to win +1s. If you compared it to any other roamer, every single one blows thief out of the water. Same with defense, same with CC, same with utility. But it doesnt matter because Thief gets to the +1s fast than anyone else. Thats also why, if you took away shortbow 5, thief would instantly become unplayable. Because suddenly thief doesnt get to them faster than anyone else. And then its inferior everything else just makes it trash tier.

    Is that why legendary rated streamers have been calling thief “the most busted ranked carry next to holo”. This obsession over shortbow 5 is incredibly bizarre too, but u also think thief’s team fight with short bow and swap to dp to decap.

    Yes, the obsession with the one weapon skill all theif mains have known for year defines their class and is literally the only reason it functions is "bizarre". Also, why are you just saying a simple truth as if its supposed to mean anything?

    No that skill does not define the class neither does the short bow weapon it’s self. What thief mains say about shortbow is that it’s mandatory- saying just 1 skill in a mandatory weapon defines the class is a huge falsification. Considering have a weapon besides short bow is also mandatory means that short bow it’s self doesn’t define thief let alone 1 skill. Again there are no high rated thief’s that I’ve ever seen that say that nor anyone on metabattle or on streams. Most would say that’s actually bizarre in my experience.

    Of course it defines the class, and by extension so does shortbow. Now you mightve tuned out when people were discussing it, but thieves say that its mandatory because of shortbow 5, and shortbow is the reason thief is viable. The second weapon is honestly not that important. Thats why thieves change their main weapon between builds, change everything around, but one thing stays unchanged always. Shortbow is the second weapon you use, and shortbow 5 is why youre viable. Also many high rated thieves have said this multiple times, and metabattle says that thief is picked primarily for its insane mobility, which is synonymous with shortbow 5. No, what people would say is bizarre, is acting like shortbow 5 isnt the defining aspect of thief. What youre doing right now.

    But just for fun, try the following: Play thief without ever using shortbow 5. You can keep shortbow if you want, but no shortbow 5. And do it in a MAT to ensure that the competition is good. See how effective you will be. Spoiler: Youll be useless. There is a reason why Thief was the worst class in 2v2/3v3, and that reason is because shortbow 5, their defining skill, isnt useful in it.

    No there are no high rated thief’s that say that. Metabattle does not say it either, in fact the builds are named after the main hand weapon which isn’t shortbow becuz short now is a utility weapon not the offensive one that defines the build. The metabattle moderator has said before that short bow mandatory just like I said and like every high rated thief says. Maybe u got some random person on the forum to agree with you but no there are no high rated thief’s that say and I’m telling you that as probably the highest rated thief in this discussion at least on NA since I don’t know everyone here from Eu

    Ok now I am convinced you are just hard trolling here. Because I cant believe that even you would believe the nonsense youre writing here. Everyone says it (except you apparently). The builds arent named after shortbow because every build uses shortbow. Youd just have 4 thief builds called "shortbow thief" in that case. You dont see Ranger builds named after GS because every build uses GS, do you? Yes, shortbow is a utility weapon, but its that utility weapon that defines the entire class. Thief is picked because it moves faster than everyone else. It moves faster than everyone else because of shortbow 5. Thief is picked because of shortbow 5. The rest changes and doesnt really matter. Thief stays the same. A class defined by shortbow 5.

    If that’s what everyone says than get 1 high rated thief in here to agree. But no one would would they? No where on metabattle did it say that. No one who rates a build says “it doesn’t matter what weapon you take as long as you have short bow it’s meta”. There has been like 1 shortbow meta, never since than. Rn it’s a dp DrD meta. Not a short bow stealth meta.

    Of course not, but lets take a look at the flipside. "It doesn't matter what weapon you take, as long as you dont have shortbow, you will be useless". I think even you will have trouble saying that this isnt the undeniable truth. And then, if youre useless if you dont have a specific weapon (and also useless if you dont use a specific skill on that specific weapon), Id call that pretty defining. Thats what everyone says. Im not sure if youre trolling or trying to use semantical tricks to cover up your mistake, but either way, youre wrong.

    No what that is is backwards logic. That’s why no thief main with a brain says that.

    Trolling it is then. No, its not "backwards logic", its just logic. What defines a class? The things it cannot go without. The things that make it at all viable. Thief is viable only with shortbow. The rest of the class changes, you can go for different traitlines, different weapons, different gear and runes. But you cannot go without shortbow 5. Thats why it defines thief. And thats why every thief main with a brain says that shortbow 5 defines thief. Well, every one that isnt trolling, I suppose.

    Also you have still not answered the SA question. If SA lost its damage traits and had them replaced with very strong defensive traits. Would thieves still pick SA? Go on.

    That’s definitely backwards logic. Shortbow is mandatory for most builds so why would u go without shortbow 5. You don’t take short bow 5 you take an offensive weapon and short bow as an offhand. That why any thief main with a brain says short bow is mandatory on builds like DP DRD and no thief main with a brain or in high elo has ever said shortbow 5 defines thief

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Shiyo.3578 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:
    I think thief damage is fairly busted. The dp build is almost entirely specced for mobility, stealth and sustain- granted it uses berserker amulet but it still hits insanely hard granted what it’s specced for. It can get by just spamming backstabs and heartseekers etc which I’ve seen hit like 6-7k per at times. It’s not 100% necessary as some suggest, but it might as well be since it has no boundaries due to mobility and stealth and has instant high impact and also insanely high passive impact due to the idea that “o they can stealth for 10s and get across the map in that time”.

    Yes, thief damage is a huge problem. The fact they can run zerker and still have 15k hp due to daredevil is one of the issues.

    Its not, its quite low.

    UNOwen I recommend you play other classes for a few months so you can get a better perspective on why people(including top players) think thief is the best class in the game next to holo.

    I have been playing core Engineer and only core engineer for about a year now. I know why thief is good, but its the same thing its always been. Thief is not "the best class next to holo" (especially because Scrapper is arguably better than Holo as is). Thief is a mandatory 1-of due to its superior mobility that makes up for its inferior everything else. But you never want more than one thief on your team, else you will lose. Does that sound like a best class to you?

    The truth is that Thieves damage is pretty pathetic. Its enough to win +1s, but you need very little to win +1s. If you compared it to any other roamer, every single one blows thief out of the water. Same with defense, same with CC, same with utility. But it doesnt matter because Thief gets to the +1s fast than anyone else. Thats also why, if you took away shortbow 5, thief would instantly become unplayable. Because suddenly thief doesnt get to them faster than anyone else. And then its inferior everything else just makes it trash tier.

    Is that why legendary rated streamers have been calling thief “the most busted ranked carry next to holo”. This obsession over shortbow 5 is incredibly bizarre too, but u also think thief’s team fight with short bow and swap to dp to decap.

    Yes, the obsession with the one weapon skill all theif mains have known for year defines their class and is literally the only reason it functions is "bizarre". Also, why are you just saying a simple truth as if its supposed to mean anything?

    No that skill does not define the class neither does the short bow weapon it’s self. What thief mains say about shortbow is that it’s mandatory- saying just 1 skill in a mandatory weapon defines the class is a huge falsification. Considering have a weapon besides short bow is also mandatory means that short bow it’s self doesn’t define thief let alone 1 skill. Again there are no high rated thief’s that I’ve ever seen that say that nor anyone on metabattle or on streams. Most would say that’s actually bizarre in my experience.

    Of course it defines the class, and by extension so does shortbow. Now you mightve tuned out when people were discussing it, but thieves say that its mandatory because of shortbow 5, and shortbow is the reason thief is viable. The second weapon is honestly not that important. Thats why thieves change their main weapon between builds, change everything around, but one thing stays unchanged always. Shortbow is the second weapon you use, and shortbow 5 is why youre viable. Also many high rated thieves have said this multiple times, and metabattle says that thief is picked primarily for its insane mobility, which is synonymous with shortbow 5. No, what people would say is bizarre, is acting like shortbow 5 isnt the defining aspect of thief. What youre doing right now.

    But just for fun, try the following: Play thief without ever using shortbow 5. You can keep shortbow if you want, but no shortbow 5. And do it in a MAT to ensure that the competition is good. See how effective you will be. Spoiler: Youll be useless. There is a reason why Thief was the worst class in 2v2/3v3, and that reason is because shortbow 5, their defining skill, isnt useful in it.

    No there are no high rated thief’s that say that. Metabattle does not say it either, in fact the builds are named after the main hand weapon which isn’t shortbow becuz short now is a utility weapon not the offensive one that defines the build. The metabattle moderator has said before that short bow mandatory just like I said and like every high rated thief says. Maybe u got some random person on the forum to agree with you but no there are no high rated thief’s that say and I’m telling you that as probably the highest rated thief in this discussion at least on NA since I don’t know everyone here from Eu

    Ok now I am convinced you are just hard trolling here. Because I cant believe that even you would believe the nonsense youre writing here. Everyone says it (except you apparently). The builds arent named after shortbow because every build uses shortbow. Youd just have 4 thief builds called "shortbow thief" in that case. You dont see Ranger builds named after GS because every build uses GS, do you? Yes, shortbow is a utility weapon, but its that utility weapon that defines the entire class. Thief is picked because it moves faster than everyone else. It moves faster than everyone else because of shortbow 5. Thief is picked because of shortbow 5. The rest changes and doesnt really matter. Thief stays the same. A class defined by shortbow 5.

    If that’s what everyone says than get 1 high rated thief in here to agree. But no one would would they? No where on metabattle did it say that. No one who rates a build says “it doesn’t matter what weapon you take as long as you have short bow it’s meta”. There has been like 1 shortbow meta, never since than. Rn it’s a dp DrD meta. Not a short bow stealth meta.

    Of course not, but lets take a look at the flipside. "It doesn't matter what weapon you take, as long as you dont have shortbow, you will be useless". I think even you will have trouble saying that this isnt the undeniable truth. And then, if youre useless if you dont have a specific weapon (and also useless if you dont use a specific skill on that specific weapon), Id call that pretty defining. Thats what everyone says. Im not sure if youre trolling or trying to use semantical tricks to cover up your mistake, but either way, youre wrong.

    No what that is is backwards logic. That’s why no thief main with a brain says that.

    Trolling it is then. No, its not "backwards logic", its just logic. What defines a class? The things it cannot go without. The things that make it at all viable. Thief is viable only with shortbow. The rest of the class changes, you can go for different traitlines, different weapons, different gear and runes. But you cannot go without shortbow 5. Thats why it defines thief. And thats why every thief main with a brain says that shortbow 5 defines thief. Well, every one that isnt trolling, I suppose.

    Also you have still not answered the SA question. If SA lost its damage traits and had them replaced with very strong defensive traits. Would thieves still pick SA? Go on.

    That’s definitely backwards logic. Shortbow is mandatory for most builds so why would u go without shortbow 5. You don’t take short bow 5 you take an offensive weapon and short bow as an offhand. That why any thief main with a brain says short bow is mandatory on builds like DP DRD and no thief main with a brain or in high elo has ever said shortbow 5 defines thief

    Why is shortbow mandatory? Youre so close to realising why youre wrong, but it seems you just dont take that last step. So answer me, why is shortbow mandatory? And if SA lost its damage traits, would it still be picked? Go on. Answer.

  • Ovark.2514Ovark.2514 Member ✭✭✭

    Trevor I agree with your points. I think there are 2 issues beyond just "Passive CC" that are issues on that front: 1) CC skills have too many targets/CC is too prevalent on skills and 2) Certain traits encourage CC spam by saying "deal X damage, apply X condition, and/or gain X boon when disabling your foe." If there are skills that encourage CC, they need to encourage specific gameplay associated with it such as interrupting a foe or knocking them into a wall.

  • Dantheman.3589Dantheman.3589 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Shiyo.3578 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:
    I think thief damage is fairly busted. The dp build is almost entirely specced for mobility, stealth and sustain- granted it uses berserker amulet but it still hits insanely hard granted what it’s specced for. It can get by just spamming backstabs and heartseekers etc which I’ve seen hit like 6-7k per at times. It’s not 100% necessary as some suggest, but it might as well be since it has no boundaries due to mobility and stealth and has instant high impact and also insanely high passive impact due to the idea that “o they can stealth for 10s and get across the map in that time”.

    Yes, thief damage is a huge problem. The fact they can run zerker and still have 15k hp due to daredevil is one of the issues.

    Its not, its quite low.

    UNOwen I recommend you play other classes for a few months so you can get a better perspective on why people(including top players) think thief is the best class in the game next to holo.

    I have been playing core Engineer and only core engineer for about a year now. I know why thief is good, but its the same thing its always been. Thief is not "the best class next to holo" (especially because Scrapper is arguably better than Holo as is). Thief is a mandatory 1-of due to its superior mobility that makes up for its inferior everything else. But you never want more than one thief on your team, else you will lose. Does that sound like a best class to you?

    The truth is that Thieves damage is pretty pathetic. Its enough to win +1s, but you need very little to win +1s. If you compared it to any other roamer, every single one blows thief out of the water. Same with defense, same with CC, same with utility. But it doesnt matter because Thief gets to the +1s fast than anyone else. Thats also why, if you took away shortbow 5, thief would instantly become unplayable. Because suddenly thief doesnt get to them faster than anyone else. And then its inferior everything else just makes it trash tier.

    Is that why legendary rated streamers have been calling thief “the most busted ranked carry next to holo”. This obsession over shortbow 5 is incredibly bizarre too, but u also think thief’s team fight with short bow and swap to dp to decap.

    Yes, the obsession with the one weapon skill all theif mains have known for year defines their class and is literally the only reason it functions is "bizarre". Also, why are you just saying a simple truth as if its supposed to mean anything?

    No that skill does not define the class neither does the short bow weapon it’s self. What thief mains say about shortbow is that it’s mandatory- saying just 1 skill in a mandatory weapon defines the class is a huge falsification. Considering have a weapon besides short bow is also mandatory means that short bow it’s self doesn’t define thief let alone 1 skill. Again there are no high rated thief’s that I’ve ever seen that say that nor anyone on metabattle or on streams. Most would say that’s actually bizarre in my experience.

    Of course it defines the class, and by extension so does shortbow. Now you mightve tuned out when people were discussing it, but thieves say that its mandatory because of shortbow 5, and shortbow is the reason thief is viable. The second weapon is honestly not that important. Thats why thieves change their main weapon between builds, change everything around, but one thing stays unchanged always. Shortbow is the second weapon you use, and shortbow 5 is why youre viable. Also many high rated thieves have said this multiple times, and metabattle says that thief is picked primarily for its insane mobility, which is synonymous with shortbow 5. No, what people would say is bizarre, is acting like shortbow 5 isnt the defining aspect of thief. What youre doing right now.

    But just for fun, try the following: Play thief without ever using shortbow 5. You can keep shortbow if you want, but no shortbow 5. And do it in a MAT to ensure that the competition is good. See how effective you will be. Spoiler: Youll be useless. There is a reason why Thief was the worst class in 2v2/3v3, and that reason is because shortbow 5, their defining skill, isnt useful in it.

    No there are no high rated thief’s that say that. Metabattle does not say it either, in fact the builds are named after the main hand weapon which isn’t shortbow becuz short now is a utility weapon not the offensive one that defines the build. The metabattle moderator has said before that short bow mandatory just like I said and like every high rated thief says. Maybe u got some random person on the forum to agree with you but no there are no high rated thief’s that say and I’m telling you that as probably the highest rated thief in this discussion at least on NA since I don’t know everyone here from Eu

    Ok now I am convinced you are just hard trolling here. Because I cant believe that even you would believe the nonsense youre writing here. Everyone says it (except you apparently). The builds arent named after shortbow because every build uses shortbow. Youd just have 4 thief builds called "shortbow thief" in that case. You dont see Ranger builds named after GS because every build uses GS, do you? Yes, shortbow is a utility weapon, but its that utility weapon that defines the entire class. Thief is picked because it moves faster than everyone else. It moves faster than everyone else because of shortbow 5. Thief is picked because of shortbow 5. The rest changes and doesnt really matter. Thief stays the same. A class defined by shortbow 5.

    If that’s what everyone says than get 1 high rated thief in here to agree. But no one would would they? No where on metabattle did it say that. No one who rates a build says “it doesn’t matter what weapon you take as long as you have short bow it’s meta”. There has been like 1 shortbow meta, never since than. Rn it’s a dp DrD meta. Not a short bow stealth meta.

    Of course not, but lets take a look at the flipside. "It doesn't matter what weapon you take, as long as you dont have shortbow, you will be useless". I think even you will have trouble saying that this isnt the undeniable truth. And then, if youre useless if you dont have a specific weapon (and also useless if you dont use a specific skill on that specific weapon), Id call that pretty defining. Thats what everyone says. Im not sure if youre trolling or trying to use semantical tricks to cover up your mistake, but either way, youre wrong.

    No what that is is backwards logic. That’s why no thief main with a brain says that.

    Trolling it is then. No, its not "backwards logic", its just logic. What defines a class? The things it cannot go without. The things that make it at all viable. Thief is viable only with shortbow. The rest of the class changes, you can go for different traitlines, different weapons, different gear and runes. But you cannot go without shortbow 5. Thats why it defines thief. And thats why every thief main with a brain says that shortbow 5 defines thief. Well, every one that isnt trolling, I suppose.

    Also you have still not answered the SA question. If SA lost its damage traits and had them replaced with very strong defensive traits. Would thieves still pick SA? Go on.

    That’s definitely backwards logic. Shortbow is mandatory for most builds so why would u go without shortbow 5. You don’t take short bow 5 you take an offensive weapon and short bow as an offhand. That why any thief main with a brain says short bow is mandatory on builds like DP DRD and no thief main with a brain or in high elo has ever said shortbow 5 defines thief

    Why is shortbow mandatory? Youre so close to realising why youre wrong, but it seems you just dont take that last step. So answer me, why is shortbow mandatory? And if SA lost its damage traits, would it still be picked? Go on. Answer.

    Your right I’ll just “listen to my self”- a thief main. From now on no more trolls on forums.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @wevh.2903 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:
    I think thief damage is fairly busted. The dp build is almost entirely specced for mobility, stealth and sustain- granted it uses berserker amulet but it still hits insanely hard granted what it’s specced for. It can get by just spamming backstabs and heartseekers etc which I’ve seen hit like 6-7k per at times. It’s not 100% necessary as some suggest, but it might as well be since it has no boundaries due to mobility and stealth and has instant high impact and also insanely high passive impact due to the idea that “o they can stealth for 10s and get across the map in that time”.

    Its specced almost entirely for damage. You pick Daredevil because its the traitline that gives the most damage (after DA, the traitline previously picked over it, was nerfed hard). You pick SA because its the most reliable damage (it does basically nothing for your sustain, especially now that people are using hidden thief). And you pick Trickery because its mandatory (though it also gives a lot of damage). And ontop of that it runs Berserkers amulet.

    And for how all-in it goes on damage, it hits pretty poor. Backstabs on a squishy class hit for 5k. If the enemy has any toughness, it hits for less. Heartseeker can hit for 5.5k on a squishy class at <25%, less on toughness again. Thats very little. I do close to that damage on core engineer just using grenades. While actually picking an entire traitline purely for defense (Id hit harder if I used Firearms, but core engineer cant run away with ease, so I cant exactly lower my survivability to as low as thieves).

    Shadow arts is and has been a defensive trait line since gw1 are u such an online miracle that you can change the definition of the trait lines since before the game was created? I think not, there are some damage modifiers but the #1 reason for these lines are mobility(DrD) intiative(trickery) and stealth(shadow arts). None of these traitlines are specifically taken to improve damage it’s just in the long run they add some, mostly from modifiers though that are not even close to 100% guaranteed to be present.

    Shadow arts was a defensive traitline. Keyword WAS. While it was a defensive traitline, it was largely unpicked. Then a while back they changed it around a bit, and now its not used as a defensive traitline. In fact, the reason its picked now is because of shadow siphoning, leeching venoms and Rending Shade. 3 traits with no real defensive value. In fact, lets look beyond that. The remaining 3 traits are the 2 minor traits (stealth when using healing skill. Redundant since HiS is used anyway. Provides no defense. Increased stealth duration from skills. Also pointless, no defense.) And Hidden Thief, which gives Stealth on steal (used for quick backstabs) and cd reduction. So tell me, where in this pile of traits do you see any defense. Its used as a damage traitline with minor utility.

    Daredevil is picked 100% for damage, dash is just gravy. Remember, it wasnt so long ago that the meta thief build was DA/SA/Trickery. The only reason Daredevil was picked again over DA was because DAs damage was hard nerfed, and now Daredevil gives more damage. If Daredevil was picked for mobility, why was it ignored in favour of DA? And Trickery is the only one that isnt picked for damage. Its picked because its mandatory for initiative. But even so it provides a decent chunk of damage. In order, the #1 reason to pick these traitlines is damage (Shadow Arts), damage (Daredevil) and initiative with a bit of damage (Trickery). Its more damage-focused than most classes.

    Daredevil is taken for mobility and shadow arts for stealth. Comparing to an old build is well redundant since that build was used for like a month and basically absent for like 5 years. Shadow arts is still by definition a defensive traitline. It has options of stealth or defensive traits and then life shipon which is still fairly defensive. Only offensive one is basically rending shade which isn’t always picked so yeah no.

    You cant just repeat a wrong thing until it turns true. It will stay false. Shadow Arts is not taken for defense, or stealth, its taken for damage. Why do you think it went unpicked entirely (Even while providing boosts to stealth) all the way up until they added leeching venoms and shadow siphoning? In fact, lets take a closer look, shall we? It does actually have a few defensive traits. Shadow's Embrace. No longer picked. Flickering Shadows, not picked (despite being a 33% damage reduction while revealed). Shadow Saviour, not picked. Instead, its only picked for traits that have no defensive value and are purely offensive. Like the siphon traits (that you only proc when you engage a fight 95% of the time, and as such the healing goes to waste). Shadow Siphoning is an offensive trait. Leeching Venoms is the only offensive trait in a slot that has 2 defensive traits, and its picked 100% of the time. Rending Shade is offensive and picked 90+% of the time. Hidden thief is offensive and used 90+% of the time.

    I dont know how I can simplify it further for you, but the simple fact is that its purely taken as a damage traitline. Oh and as for the "oh its picked for stealth thing", D/Ps primary stealth source is black powder + heartseeker, which doesnt benefit from SA. Meld with Shadows theoretically would, but you already have swiftness. The stealth on heal does nothing, since your heal stealths anyway (And you only use your heal in combat, where you want to drop stealth ASAP, so the duration does nothing). The increased stealth from skills does nothing for similar reasons.

    As for Daredevil my point still stands. Of course I can compare it to the build that immediately preceded it. Especially because that build followed from a Daredevil build, where Daredevil was dropped in favour of DA because DA did more damage. And of course it was absent for 5 years, Shadow Arts used to be a defensive traitline after all. Which meant no one ever picked it. But after it was changed to a damage traitline, it replaced DA originally, before people figured out "hey, DA also adds more damage than Daredevil, so lets just drop Daredevil". But then DA was nerfed hard, and people went back to Daredevil. Mind you, when the patch that obliterated DA dropped, Sindrener explained why DD D/P is now recommended over DA D/P, and he specifically said its because DA was nerfed so much it just does less damage. Dash is just gravy.

    You didn’t simplify anything just make it more complicated by mixing stuff up from over the course of many years. And no daredevil isn’t taken for more damage it’s taken becuz the additional mobility is very worth the trade off of slightly higher damage and yeah I’ve seen sinderners argument he said even if you took DA it would only ever be slightly more damage. The additional stealth and mobility are just so huge on this build that the trade offs are barely present and the damage like wise is good enough without these things as well as being incredibly simple and effective with all the stealth and mobility on top.

    Please dont try to evade answering my question. So tell me once again. Which part of SA is supposed to be defensive? Why was it only picked after its defensive capabilities were nerfed, and it instead got several offensive traits added? Why is it that only the offensive traits get picked instead of defensive alternatives in the same slot? Go ahead, answer it.

    No, Daredevil is taken because its more damage than DA. There is no trade-off, DA just adds less damage because it was nerfed. Thats why when DA did provide more damage, you picked it over Daredevil. Because the additional mobility of dash is pretty minor considering you have shortbow 5. There is no additional stealth. Full stop. You could make hidden thief and concealing restoration both do nothing for stealth, and people would still pick SA 100% of the time, because those traits are irrelevant as they are. You pick SA for damage.

    No ones going to answer your question. It’s not the point of a forum. I know you think calling ppl out with your gold facts is cool, but I see no need since this isn’t a thread for that. Feel free to disagree with the op though

    I will give him answer for you :D

    @UNOwen.7132
    1 Concealing restoration -> 2s stealth on healing skill use
    2 Hidden thief -> stealing grants stealth ( 3s ), deception skills reduced recharge -> that includes ( healing skill for stealth/healing, shadowstep for condi cleanse, 2x stunbreake and mobility along with BP for another Stunbreake and stealth )
    3 meld with shadows -> movespeed in stealth
    4 Spider venom -> steal hp 650 each time you stealth
    5 Shadow siphoning -> another 500 siphon from stealth
    6 Boonrip and fear.
    Legit every single trait gives mobility or utility or healing. You pretend its take for the damage since siphons hit for 1k out of stealth every time, its chip damage that adds up but SA is made for utility.

    Without deadly arts nerf thiefs wouldnt run shadoe arts

    without dueling nerfs mesmer would not run domination, what does that matter tho? lol

  • wasss.1208wasss.1208 Member ✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    Conditions:

    1. Condition play is too strong and too bursty right now. Since year 1 we've all seen how condition dominant metas always bring in the laziest, spammiest, sloppiest, and most RNG type of play, which players generally have less fun with for several reasons. Most of the condi based attacks in the game are AoE in nature or activated through traits & utilities that create these primer abilities that cause condi damage to happen through any attack the user wants, including auto 1 spam. The real problem here is that the telegraphs for these AoE abilities and primed traits & utilities, have little to no telegraphs at all.

    I agree that conditions became burstier. Back then, when conditions mostly didn't stack in intensity, but duration, fights agains condition builds were much longer. Sadly, since defensive+condition amulets are mostly removed, most of the condition classes can't go back to that previous playstyle. Condition cleansing got powercrept, too.
    About the AoE and spammy nature of condition builds I definitely agree. It feels like they are up way too often. Not sure if it is because the devs expect everyone to have a pocket support, or they want people to pick more condition cleanse, but on a normal build*, fighting against most of the condi builds feels like who bursts faster.
    (*I might be wrong here, as lately I use glassy build, with low condi cleanse.)

    1. All of the attack animations in the game are tied to power side damage. With power side damage, there is always a clear wind up animation and strike animation, regardless of the speed of the attack. However with condi based attacks or condi effects tied onto power based weapon attacks, they have slight tiny animations that don't even occur until after the skill is used or in some cases no animation at all. Without going into too much detail, I'll give a simple example to think about: Situation (A) - You enter a 3v3 at mid against a Holo, a Spellbreaker, and a Reaper. In this situation it is possible to counter play the telegraphs well enough that you can avoid most of the damage or maybe all of it. But in Situation (B) - You enter a 3v3 at mid against a Core Burn Guard, a Scourge, and an Ele. In this situation there is so much no animation no warning pulsing condi AoE, that you will get hit and you will take a lot of damage. I'm not saying that anything is OP or UP here. I am saying that this is the difference between when the game's dynamic feels good, and when it feels bad.

    I disagree here. Condition attacks are well telegraphed, especially for those three you brought up as an example. The old fire Elementalist has around 4 abilities that you have to watch out, one makes the character grow red, one has an obvious pulsing animation, one has a leap animation, and lately they run Signet of Fire, which shows above their head when they cast it. The only problem with the last one, is that your damage numbers, especially if you crit, usually hide the sign.
    Core Burn Guardian puts a burn on you after every 3rd hit... While Symbols are easy to spot, I agree that this one is a bit annoying.
    Scourge abilities, especially the shade ones are really easy to spot, since they got the delay, and "orange circle of death". Weapon abilities could use some work, but honestly, there are power builds with that same problem.

    1. With power dominant metas, we've seen over the years that this is when the difference in player skill levels really shines. Good players can see telegraphs and outplay a class/build that normally should be beating it. But in condi dominant metas, the gap in player effectiveness between a strong player and a weak player begins to shorten. This is because condi dominant metas force a type of playstyle that is less about watching telegraphs & outplaying, and more about just running whatever statistically has the strongest attributes in the current given patching, because no one can really avoid damage. Sure, being experienced does matter, but it matters a lot less in condi dominant metas.

    Kind of agree here, based on personal experience. The last time everyone played condition builds (mirage+scourge, in early PoF days), I had a really easy time climbing with a Purity of Purpose + Mender Holosmith.

    1. My Suggestion - Due to how conditions were implemented into Guild Wars 2 in conjunction with how clears & stun breaks & other effects were implemented, conditions should only ever be attrition. Under no circumstances should any class/build ever be able to burst with conditions in the same way that a power build can burst. Condition based attacks have a negligent amount of telegraphs and too much AoE spam which makes the game dynamic feel sloppy, less skill based, and in general less fun to play.

    Partly agree here. In my oppinion conditions should be mostly slow killers, that wears off the enemy, but that would mean that some defensive options should come back for these builds, and that could lead to an another condi bunker meta. On the other hand, things like Mesmer lives or dies on bursts, their whole playstyle is built around high burst hit and runs. They should be able to burst, even with conditions.

    Passive CC:

    1. We're talking about: "Flashbang" "Shocking Aura Share" and also soft CC skills that passively proc of traits or pulse off pits, spamming soft CCs way too frequently and for way to elongated of amounts of time. When all of these effects start stacking on top of each other, it just turns into a mess of play dynamic that doesn't feel fun. Again, I'm not saying anything is OP or UP. I am saying that it makes the game feel bad to play. Another example to think about: Situation (A) a Spellbreaker and an S/D Thief vs. Power Soulbeast and Power Herald. In situation (A) every single skill used matters, every single CC is active, landing or missing an important CD creates detrimental momentum shifts, everything is high risk high reward, and as such the difference between good players and bad players in the match up is enormous. But most importantly, every single attack used has an actual telegraph that can be seen. There are no random pulsing nearly invisible effects happening at all. But in Situation (B) Tempest & Scourge vs. Tempest & FB, we have a mess on our hands. Players on these classes are rewarded for spamming skills off of CD, they actually don't need to pay that much attention at all to what's happening. There is way too much passive CC going on to where the traffic jam effect is happening. Landing or missing an important CD isn't really very detrimental at all and in fact, there is so much AoE going on here that it's actually hard to miss with a skill. Even if attacks are missed, chances are that the two duos in conjunction with their passive hard & soft CCs, could also support themselves so strongly to such a degree, that neither side would be able to kill the other. There is absolutely nothing risky here for how high the reward is, and every single thing that is happening in this 2v2 is a nearly impossible to see telegraph pulsing pit or aura like effect with little to no animation at all. This kind of dynamic is lame and boring because although the difference between P2 vs. G2 will be very obvious in Spellbreaker & Thief vs. Soulbeast & Herald, the difference between P2 vs. G2 in Tempest & Scourge vs. Tempest & FB will be barely visible at all due to the traffic jam effect.

    Others already pointed out, that calling these "passive" CCs could be untrue, but I find the statement true otherwise. Some classes has access to way too much CC, which feels unfun/unfair to play against.

    1. My Suggestion - Get rid of passive CC completely, at least the hard CCs. This trend needs to stop. Compensate the classes that lose the passive CCs in other ways.

    My suggestion here would be removing the CC from several skills, and give them their damage back. Since the number and duration of stability came down, the number of CCs should do as well. This would also solve the problem, that a lot of professions lost way too much damage, because of many of their skills had CC attached to them.

    Supports:
    3. My Suggestion - The traditional strong Support classes/builds need to lose a sizeable amount of the offensive pressure they have. And instant revive skills all need to be on longer cast times so that there is a more realistic time frame to interrupt those skills.

    This one is kind of tricky. Some supports are built as hybrids, like Blood Scourge, and Sage FB. These should definitely keep doing damage, if they sacreficed a big chunk of their build to do damage. The problem starts when these builds barely lose any support power, while still beign able to dish out damage, or when pure support builds can do similar damage pressure to a pure damage build.

    Disclaimer: I wrote this pretty tired, typos and mindfarts might be included. I either don't have an opinion on the stuff I cut out, or I don't feel like I'm experienced enough to comment on them. It is a well written post, but you should paragraph more inside the points, so it is easier to read and follow.
  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dantheman.3589
    hes not worth having a serious talk with ;p
    hes the only person that can say "The cooldown reaction is nice, but its not really defensive, since you dont use them twice in a single fight." with a straight face.
    Imagine getting a trait that reduced CD of healing skill that cleanses and stealths, and 2 other utility/survivability cooldowns and not calling it defensive. Its delusion incarnate.
    And he is so serious about it that he wont even for a split second stop to think that, kitten. Maybe I am the guy in the wrong here huh?
    you get
    3 different traits for stealth empowerement.
    speed in stealth.
    boonrip + healing on top of cd reductions for defensive skills.
    and he calls it offensive cuz it deals 1k dmg after he stealths, im actually speechless.
    " And yet, the only traits its picked for are leeching venoms, shadow siphoning and to a lesser degree rending shade. "
    XD

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 6, 2020

    @Leonidrex.5649
    Oh you want to join in the fray? Ok sure. If youre so convinced that SA is a defensive traitline, answer me this. If you removed Leeching Venoms and Shadow Siphoning, and replaced them with very good defensive traits. Do you think thieves will still pick SA?

  • Tayga.3192Tayga.3192 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132

    Doesn't crit strikes do more damage than SA?

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tayga.3192 said:
    @UNOwen.7132

    Doesn't crit strikes do more damage than SA?

    I mentioned this before, but sort of yes, sort of no. The issue with Crit Strikes is that, while it does do more damage in a perfect scenario, its a lot less reliable. If one of the multipliers is inactive (which will often be the case), then already it does as much or less damage than SA. If two are inactive (Which will happen a not insignificant amount of time) then it will do a lot less damage than SA. Its damage also doesnt ignore armour, so it does a lot worse vs high toughness targets or targets that have any kind of damage reduction. And if you fail to crit, well, then youre really screwed. SA is picked over CS For the same reason DA was picked over it. Consistency.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    @Leonidrex.5649
    Oh you want to join in the fray? Ok sure. If youre so convinced that SA is a defensive traitline, answer me this. If you removed Leeching Venoms and Shadow Siphoning, and replaced them with very good defensive traits. Do you think thieves will still pick SA?

    Looks like he doesnt want to answer, so lets finish the thought experiment myself real quick. The answer is obviously "no". That version of SA existed, it was the SA pre-changes, and no one played it. Next the question is "if only Leeching Venoms and Shadow Siphoning were kept, and every other trait replaced with offensive traits, would SA still be picked by thieves?". The answer there is obviously "yes". It'd be no different from DA, back when DA was the traitline of choice.

    Now combine those 2 facts. What does that tell you about the traitline? If you can remove just 2 traits and replace them with defense oriented traits and the traitline immediately stops being picked, but if you keep only those 2 and replace all other ones with offense oriented traits and the traitline continues to be picked, well its pretty clear that the traitline is picked only for those 2 traits, and is used as an offensive traitline, not a defensive one.

  • wevh.2903wevh.2903 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 7, 2020

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @wevh.2903 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:
    I think thief damage is fairly busted. The dp build is almost entirely specced for mobility, stealth and sustain- granted it uses berserker amulet but it still hits insanely hard granted what it’s specced for. It can get by just spamming backstabs and heartseekers etc which I’ve seen hit like 6-7k per at times. It’s not 100% necessary as some suggest, but it might as well be since it has no boundaries due to mobility and stealth and has instant high impact and also insanely high passive impact due to the idea that “o they can stealth for 10s and get across the map in that time”.

    Its specced almost entirely for damage. You pick Daredevil because its the traitline that gives the most damage (after DA, the traitline previously picked over it, was nerfed hard). You pick SA because its the most reliable damage (it does basically nothing for your sustain, especially now that people are using hidden thief). And you pick Trickery because its mandatory (though it also gives a lot of damage). And ontop of that it runs Berserkers amulet.

    And for how all-in it goes on damage, it hits pretty poor. Backstabs on a squishy class hit for 5k. If the enemy has any toughness, it hits for less. Heartseeker can hit for 5.5k on a squishy class at <25%, less on toughness again. Thats very little. I do close to that damage on core engineer just using grenades. While actually picking an entire traitline purely for defense (Id hit harder if I used Firearms, but core engineer cant run away with ease, so I cant exactly lower my survivability to as low as thieves).

    Shadow arts is and has been a defensive trait line since gw1 are u such an online miracle that you can change the definition of the trait lines since before the game was created? I think not, there are some damage modifiers but the #1 reason for these lines are mobility(DrD) intiative(trickery) and stealth(shadow arts). None of these traitlines are specifically taken to improve damage it’s just in the long run they add some, mostly from modifiers though that are not even close to 100% guaranteed to be present.

    Shadow arts was a defensive traitline. Keyword WAS. While it was a defensive traitline, it was largely unpicked. Then a while back they changed it around a bit, and now its not used as a defensive traitline. In fact, the reason its picked now is because of shadow siphoning, leeching venoms and Rending Shade. 3 traits with no real defensive value. In fact, lets look beyond that. The remaining 3 traits are the 2 minor traits (stealth when using healing skill. Redundant since HiS is used anyway. Provides no defense. Increased stealth duration from skills. Also pointless, no defense.) And Hidden Thief, which gives Stealth on steal (used for quick backstabs) and cd reduction. So tell me, where in this pile of traits do you see any defense. Its used as a damage traitline with minor utility.

    Daredevil is picked 100% for damage, dash is just gravy. Remember, it wasnt so long ago that the meta thief build was DA/SA/Trickery. The only reason Daredevil was picked again over DA was because DAs damage was hard nerfed, and now Daredevil gives more damage. If Daredevil was picked for mobility, why was it ignored in favour of DA? And Trickery is the only one that isnt picked for damage. Its picked because its mandatory for initiative. But even so it provides a decent chunk of damage. In order, the #1 reason to pick these traitlines is damage (Shadow Arts), damage (Daredevil) and initiative with a bit of damage (Trickery). Its more damage-focused than most classes.

    Daredevil is taken for mobility and shadow arts for stealth. Comparing to an old build is well redundant since that build was used for like a month and basically absent for like 5 years. Shadow arts is still by definition a defensive traitline. It has options of stealth or defensive traits and then life shipon which is still fairly defensive. Only offensive one is basically rending shade which isn’t always picked so yeah no.

    You cant just repeat a wrong thing until it turns true. It will stay false. Shadow Arts is not taken for defense, or stealth, its taken for damage. Why do you think it went unpicked entirely (Even while providing boosts to stealth) all the way up until they added leeching venoms and shadow siphoning? In fact, lets take a closer look, shall we? It does actually have a few defensive traits. Shadow's Embrace. No longer picked. Flickering Shadows, not picked (despite being a 33% damage reduction while revealed). Shadow Saviour, not picked. Instead, its only picked for traits that have no defensive value and are purely offensive. Like the siphon traits (that you only proc when you engage a fight 95% of the time, and as such the healing goes to waste). Shadow Siphoning is an offensive trait. Leeching Venoms is the only offensive trait in a slot that has 2 defensive traits, and its picked 100% of the time. Rending Shade is offensive and picked 90+% of the time. Hidden thief is offensive and used 90+% of the time.

    I dont know how I can simplify it further for you, but the simple fact is that its purely taken as a damage traitline. Oh and as for the "oh its picked for stealth thing", D/Ps primary stealth source is black powder + heartseeker, which doesnt benefit from SA. Meld with Shadows theoretically would, but you already have swiftness. The stealth on heal does nothing, since your heal stealths anyway (And you only use your heal in combat, where you want to drop stealth ASAP, so the duration does nothing). The increased stealth from skills does nothing for similar reasons.

    As for Daredevil my point still stands. Of course I can compare it to the build that immediately preceded it. Especially because that build followed from a Daredevil build, where Daredevil was dropped in favour of DA because DA did more damage. And of course it was absent for 5 years, Shadow Arts used to be a defensive traitline after all. Which meant no one ever picked it. But after it was changed to a damage traitline, it replaced DA originally, before people figured out "hey, DA also adds more damage than Daredevil, so lets just drop Daredevil". But then DA was nerfed hard, and people went back to Daredevil. Mind you, when the patch that obliterated DA dropped, Sindrener explained why DD D/P is now recommended over DA D/P, and he specifically said its because DA was nerfed so much it just does less damage. Dash is just gravy.

    You didn’t simplify anything just make it more complicated by mixing stuff up from over the course of many years. And no daredevil isn’t taken for more damage it’s taken becuz the additional mobility is very worth the trade off of slightly higher damage and yeah I’ve seen sinderners argument he said even if you took DA it would only ever be slightly more damage. The additional stealth and mobility are just so huge on this build that the trade offs are barely present and the damage like wise is good enough without these things as well as being incredibly simple and effective with all the stealth and mobility on top.

    Please dont try to evade answering my question. So tell me once again. Which part of SA is supposed to be defensive? Why was it only picked after its defensive capabilities were nerfed, and it instead got several offensive traits added? Why is it that only the offensive traits get picked instead of defensive alternatives in the same slot? Go ahead, answer it.

    No, Daredevil is taken because its more damage than DA. There is no trade-off, DA just adds less damage because it was nerfed. Thats why when DA did provide more damage, you picked it over Daredevil. Because the additional mobility of dash is pretty minor considering you have shortbow 5. There is no additional stealth. Full stop. You could make hidden thief and concealing restoration both do nothing for stealth, and people would still pick SA 100% of the time, because those traits are irrelevant as they are. You pick SA for damage.

    No ones going to answer your question. It’s not the point of a forum. I know you think calling ppl out with your gold facts is cool, but I see no need since this isn’t a thread for that. Feel free to disagree with the op though

    I will give him answer for you :D

    @UNOwen.7132
    1 Concealing restoration -> 2s stealth on healing skill use
    2 Hidden thief -> stealing grants stealth ( 3s ), deception skills reduced recharge -> that includes ( healing skill for stealth/healing, shadowstep for condi cleanse, 2x stunbreake and mobility along with BP for another Stunbreake and stealth )
    3 meld with shadows -> movespeed in stealth
    4 Spider venom -> steal hp 650 each time you stealth
    5 Shadow siphoning -> another 500 siphon from stealth
    6 Boonrip and fear.
    Legit every single trait gives mobility or utility or healing. You pretend its take for the damage since siphons hit for 1k out of stealth every time, its chip damage that adds up but SA is made for utility.

    Without deadly arts nerf thiefs wouldnt run shadoe arts

    without dueling nerfs mesmer would not run domination, what does that matter tho? lol

    Means thief doenst need shadow arts for its role , ofc shadow arts is cheesy af and if ur bad thief u will likely survive situations where u shouldnt.

    But the point is deadly arts after nerf doenst give that much more dmg than shadow arts.why? Cuz with shadow arts u can spike with steal stealth to use all ur initiative on hearseeker instead of building stealth with it . If deadly arts (like when unnerfed) gives more dmg than shadow arts good thief would run it.

    Being almost inmortal isnt that great on a class wich role is perma +1 fights (u wont stay at any 3v3 and a lot of 2v2) , so good thief would prefer the dmg over survivality trade off (yes daredevil on its own without SA has lot of survivavility), but this actually dont happen so thieves pick SA cuz it have more utility while almost the same dmg and way more survivavility.

  • Shiyo.3578Shiyo.3578 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 7, 2020

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Shiyo.3578 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:
    I think thief damage is fairly busted. The dp build is almost entirely specced for mobility, stealth and sustain- granted it uses berserker amulet but it still hits insanely hard granted what it’s specced for. It can get by just spamming backstabs and heartseekers etc which I’ve seen hit like 6-7k per at times. It’s not 100% necessary as some suggest, but it might as well be since it has no boundaries due to mobility and stealth and has instant high impact and also insanely high passive impact due to the idea that “o they can stealth for 10s and get across the map in that time”.

    Yes, thief damage is a huge problem. The fact they can run zerker and still have 15k hp due to daredevil is one of the issues.

    Its not, its quite low.

    https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/691694648745394268/752357468046229575/unknown.png

    ok.

    All damage on target golem were done without assassin's signet with zerker/divinity daredevil in SPvP. This damage while retaining 15k HP and thiefs absurd stealth/mobility/dodges.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shiyo.3578 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Shiyo.3578 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:
    I think thief damage is fairly busted. The dp build is almost entirely specced for mobility, stealth and sustain- granted it uses berserker amulet but it still hits insanely hard granted what it’s specced for. It can get by just spamming backstabs and heartseekers etc which I’ve seen hit like 6-7k per at times. It’s not 100% necessary as some suggest, but it might as well be since it has no boundaries due to mobility and stealth and has instant high impact and also insanely high passive impact due to the idea that “o they can stealth for 10s and get across the map in that time”.

    Yes, thief damage is a huge problem. The fact they can run zerker and still have 15k hp due to daredevil is one of the issues.

    Its not, its quite low.

    https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/691694648745394268/752357468046229575/unknown.png

    ok.

    All damage on target golem were done without assassin's signet with zerker/divinity daredevil in SPvP. This damage while retaining 15k HP and thiefs absurd stealth/mobility/dodges.

    Ok, now how much might did you stack, and how much vulnerability did you apply? Because I quite recently tested out CS damage vs SA damage on that same golem. Even with CS, 6k was the highest backstab hit for. So why are your damage numbers so much higher?

  • Shiyo.3578Shiyo.3578 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 7, 2020

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Shiyo.3578 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Shiyo.3578 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:
    I think thief damage is fairly busted. The dp build is almost entirely specced for mobility, stealth and sustain- granted it uses berserker amulet but it still hits insanely hard granted what it’s specced for. It can get by just spamming backstabs and heartseekers etc which I’ve seen hit like 6-7k per at times. It’s not 100% necessary as some suggest, but it might as well be since it has no boundaries due to mobility and stealth and has instant high impact and also insanely high passive impact due to the idea that “o they can stealth for 10s and get across the map in that time”.

    Yes, thief damage is a huge problem. The fact they can run zerker and still have 15k hp due to daredevil is one of the issues.

    Its not, its quite low.

    https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/691694648745394268/752357468046229575/unknown.png

    ok.

    All damage on target golem were done without assassin's signet with zerker/divinity daredevil in SPvP. This damage while retaining 15k HP and thiefs absurd stealth/mobility/dodges.

    Ok, now how much might did you stack, and how much vulnerability did you apply? Because I quite recently tested out CS damage vs SA damage on that same golem. Even with CS, 6k was the highest backstab hit for. So why are your damage numbers so much higher?

    The only vuln I'd have is whatever I apply, which is probably zero for d/p? The might is whatever d/p gets natively from trickery stealing so it's probably like 3(thrill of the crime)?

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shiyo.3578 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Shiyo.3578 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Shiyo.3578 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:
    I think thief damage is fairly busted. The dp build is almost entirely specced for mobility, stealth and sustain- granted it uses berserker amulet but it still hits insanely hard granted what it’s specced for. It can get by just spamming backstabs and heartseekers etc which I’ve seen hit like 6-7k per at times. It’s not 100% necessary as some suggest, but it might as well be since it has no boundaries due to mobility and stealth and has instant high impact and also insanely high passive impact due to the idea that “o they can stealth for 10s and get across the map in that time”.

    Yes, thief damage is a huge problem. The fact they can run zerker and still have 15k hp due to daredevil is one of the issues.

    Its not, its quite low.

    https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/691694648745394268/752357468046229575/unknown.png

    ok.

    All damage on target golem were done without assassin's signet with zerker/divinity daredevil in SPvP. This damage while retaining 15k HP and thiefs absurd stealth/mobility/dodges.

    Ok, now how much might did you stack, and how much vulnerability did you apply? Because I quite recently tested out CS damage vs SA damage on that same golem. Even with CS, 6k was the highest backstab hit for. So why are your damage numbers so much higher?

    The only vuln I'd have is whatever I apply, which is probably zero for d/p? The might is whatever d/p gets natively from trickery stealing so it's probably like 3(thrill of the crime)?

    Alright, then let me just ask you: Is your build by any chance DA/CS/DD with executioner and Bound? And did you make sure to get the target below 50% and bound before doing the damage numbers? Because I did the math real quick, and that would line up.

  • Shiyo.3578Shiyo.3578 Member ✭✭✭✭

    trickery/crit strikes/daredevil

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 7, 2020

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    @Trevor Boyer.6524

    Ben P- “GW2 PvP is essentially a team mode”.

    Keyword there bud, is "essentially"

    Conquest is a 5v5 team mode where things like 1/3/1 splits are happening around the map at all times during a match.

    The keywords of Ben’s statement are “team mode”.

    Honestly, what are you expecting the devs to do for balance? Review each weapon skill, slot skill, trait, and class mechanic for 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, 5v5, 5 person pve modes, 10 person pve modes, open world pve modes, and XvXvX wvw mode? How would those balance notes work when the fundamental design of GW2 is as a team based game?

    Q: What am I expecting the balance team to do for balance?
    A: Balance the game.

    Dude no one said it wasn't a team mode. Knock it off with that.

    You want balance decisions for the game to rely heavily off of what happens during 1-3v1-3 player fights inside of a mode that was dropped as an e-sport. This game doesn't need spvp 1-3v fights to dictate how professions perform, mechanics are tweaked, and how combat unfolds in a team based combat game.

    And regarding conditions, the devs want power vs condition to be a real choice. There may be some outliner skills that do too much damage on both ends, as of always, but you completely miss the real issues with the condition system in gw2.

    And the real issue in GW2 isn't really so much the passive hard control effects, its the fact that the game rules allow for continuous chaining of control effects.

    What do you suppose we do with the "traditional classes/builds" that are support? When you spec to something like tempest you automatically get a forced -50% damage debuff? Do we prevent a spec like tempest from using certain amulets? Do we debuff the damage of every heal and non-heal support build if said build uses more that X of 10 skill slots for team support skills? Furthermore, do you realize what poor quality support roles and skill designs we have to use in GW2? Those of us who played support roles regularly and competitively for years have a good understanding of how this game lacks on the support role front, but you want nerfs on top of that...

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shiyo.3578 said:
    trickery/crit strikes/daredevil

    Alright, so its indeed bound, with 15 stacks of lead attacks, and 0 bars of endurance left, on a target with >50% hp. You are aware that not only is your build not meta at all but outright unplayable, but the damage you showed is also not realistic, since there is no real way in a fight scenario to have 15 stacks of lead attacks, 0 bars of endurance, a target with >50% hp and a thief that isnt dead, right?

  • Shiyo.3578Shiyo.3578 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 8, 2020

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Shiyo.3578 said:
    trickery/crit strikes/daredevil

    Alright, so its indeed bound, with 15 stacks of lead attacks, and 0 bars of endurance left, on a target with >50% hp. You are aware that not only is your build not meta at all but outright unplayable, but the damage you showed is also not realistic, since there is no real way in a fight scenario to have 15 stacks of lead attacks, 0 bars of endurance, a target with >50% hp and a thief that isnt dead, right?

    There's nothing that increases my damage on a target below 50% hp in my build. It was 9-12 lead attack stacks and 1 bar of endurance. Pretty realistic scenario since you get 9 lead attack stacks simply from 5 - > 2.

    Unless you mean heartseeker, then yes, that's also a realistic scenario since it's after a big backstab and to demonstrate how powerful HS is.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shiyo.3578 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Shiyo.3578 said:
    trickery/crit strikes/daredevil

    Alright, so its indeed bound, with 15 stacks of lead attacks, and 0 bars of endurance left, on a target with >50% hp. You are aware that not only is your build not meta at all but outright unplayable, but the damage you showed is also not realistic, since there is no real way in a fight scenario to have 15 stacks of lead attacks, 0 bars of endurance, a target with >50% hp and a thief that isnt dead, right?

    There's nothing that increases my damage on a target below 50% hp in my build. It was 9-12 lead attack stacks and 1 bar of endurance. Pretty realistic scenario since you get 9 lead attack stacks simply from 5 - > 2.

    I said >50%, not below 50%. Ferocious strikes needs the target to be above 50%. It was 15 lead attack stacks and 0 bars of endurance. The damage with 9 lead attacks and 1 bar of endurance (with active bound) is 7900. And its of course an extremely unrealistic scenario. Besides the fact that you dont get to just black powder into heartseeker in the middle of combat, you also have to activate bounding dodges with revealing yourself, and be down to 1 bar of endurance. Plus none of the other multipliers can be allowed to be inactive (Which they will. Not a chance youll be above 90% hp for example). And thats with a really bad max glass cannon build that no one plays.

    Unless you mean heartseeker, then yes, that's also a realistic scenario since it's after a big backstab and to demonstrate how powerful HS is.

    As seen before, its unrealistic for the same reasons.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 8, 2020

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    @Trevor Boyer.6524

    Ben P- “GW2 PvP is essentially a team mode”.

    Keyword there bud, is "essentially"

    Conquest is a 5v5 team mode where things like 1/3/1 splits are happening around the map at all times during a match.

    The keywords of Ben’s statement are “team mode”.

    Honestly, what are you expecting the devs to do for balance? Review each weapon skill, slot skill, trait, and class mechanic for 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, 5v5, 5 person pve modes, 10 person pve modes, open world pve modes, and XvXvX wvw mode? How would those balance notes work when the fundamental design of GW2 is as a team based game?

    Q: What am I expecting the balance team to do for balance?
    A: Balance the game.

    Dude no one said it wasn't a team mode. Knock it off with that.

    You want balance decisions for the game to rely heavily off of what happens during 1-3v1-3 player fights inside of a mode that was dropped as an e-sport. This game doesn't need spvp 1-3v fights to dictate how professions perform, mechanics are tweaked, and how combat unfolds in a team based combat game.

    Ok, since my first response was removed, I'm going to post it again:

    1. Not sure what a 1-3v1-3 is, but we were talking about 1/3/1 splits, which is something that commonly happens during a conquest match at all points in time during the match. If you don't know what a 1/3/1 split is, I guess our discussion stops here.
    2. You keep saying that the game shouldn't be balanced around anything other than team mode. What exactly do you mean by this? What you are saying is honestly confusing my good dude.

    And regarding conditions, the devs want power vs condition to be a real choice. There may be some outliner skills that do too much damage on both ends, as of always, but you completely miss the real issues with the condition system in gw2.

    1. Nope, after 8+ years and 20,000 games played, I've got a pretty strong grasp on how condis work and the problems they present to smooth play dynamic.

    And the real issue in GW2 isn't really so much the passive hard control effects, its the fact that the game rules allow for continuous chaining of control effects.

    1. So you're telling me that the problem isn't CCs, but rather the real problem is CCs. Gotcha

    What do you suppose we do with the "traditional classes/builds" that are support?

    1. I already went over this in the OP post and made very clear suggestions.

    When you spec to something like tempest you automatically get a forced -50% damage debuff?

    1. Nothing I said was even the ballpark of such an outrageous suggestion.

    Do we prevent a spec like tempest from using certain amulets? Do we debuff the damage of every heal and non-heal support build if said build uses more that X of 10 skill slots for team support skills?

    1. Hey man, you're the one saying this stuff, not me.

    Furthermore, do you realize what poor quality support roles and skill designs we have to use in GW2? Those of us who played support roles regularly and competitively for years have a good understanding of how this game lacks on the support role front, but you want nerfs on top of that...

    1. We've been in a Godzilla Firebrand Dominant meta since PoF release. When they finally got FB under control, then Tempest appears as an S++ importance in any team comp. And this isn't even to mention the full history of Support builds in previous years. Supports have always been MVP but that isn't the point here. The point is about what's happening right now, and right now Supports are too strong, particularly Tempest Shocking Aura Share & Lightning Rod.
  • Shiyo.3578Shiyo.3578 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    1. We've been in a Godzilla Firebrand Dominant meta since PoF release. When they finally got FB under control, then Tempest appears as an S++ importance in any team comp. And this isn't even to mention the full history of Support builds in previous years. Supports have always been MVP but that isn't the point here. The point is about what's happening right now, and right now Supports are too strong, particularly Tempest Shocking Aura Share & Lightning Rod.

    Lightning rod isn't a support build? Lightning rod weaver isn't even good, it's just zero fun to fight. You also forgot to mention magnetic aura and scrapper. Scrapper + tempest = 2 resses(both can be aoe too LOL), near perma projectile reflect, CONSTANT aoe CC and tons of survival on everyone.

    If you're fighting scrapper+tempest + x comps, you might as well be playing current WoW in 95% dampening games because no one is going to die and the games zero fun. Res utilities do not belong in a much, much slower paced version of the game where it takes so much time, set up, and resources to secure kills.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    Currently in spvp "all modes" I see 3x main problems concerning the intra-class balance & dynamic that are seriously dragging down the fun factor of the game. The first problem is concerning how conditions are currently working in a condi heavy meta. The second is how too much passive CC is making the game feel like being stuck in a traffic jam. The third is that support classes have seriously been buffed way too much.

    Conditions:

    1. Condition play is too strong and too bursty right now. Since year 1 we've all seen how condition dominant metas always bring in the laziest, spammiest, sloppiest, and most RNG type of play, which players generally have less fun with for several reasons. Most of the condi based attacks in the game are AoE in nature or activated through traits & utilities that create these primer abilities that cause condi damage to happen through any attack the user wants, including auto 1 spam. The real problem here is that the telegraphs for these AoE abilities and primed traits & utilities, have little to no telegraphs at all.
    2. All of the attack animations in the game are tied to power side damage. With power side damage, there is always a clear wind up animation and strike animation, regardless of the speed of the attack. However with condi based attacks or condi effects tied onto power based weapon attacks, they have slight tiny animations that don't even occur until after the skill is used or in some cases no animation at all. Without going into too much detail, I'll give a simple example to think about: Situation (A) - You enter a 3v3 at mid against a Holo, a Spellbreaker, and a Reaper. In this situation it is possible to counter play the telegraphs well enough that you can avoid most of the damage or maybe all of it. But in Situation (B) - You enter a 3v3 at mid against a Core Burn Guard, a Scourge, and an Ele. In this situation there is so much no animation no warning pulsing condi AoE, that you will get hit and you will take a lot of damage. I'm not saying that anything is OP or UP here. I am saying that this is the difference between when the game's dynamic feels good, and when it feels bad.
    3. With power dominant metas, we've seen over the years that this is when the difference in player skill levels really shines. Good players can see telegraphs and outplay a class/build that normally should be beating it. But in condi dominant metas, the gap in player effectiveness between a strong player and a weak player begins to shorten. This is because condi dominant metas force a type of playstyle that is less about watching telegraphs & outplaying, and more about just running whatever statistically has the strongest attributes in the current given patching, because no one can really avoid damage. Sure, being experienced does matter, but it matters a lot less in condi dominant metas.
    4. Condition builds also get out of control more easily than power builds in terms of being OP. This is mainly because of the way condi clear & stun breaks & other effects were implemented into the game. Most stun breaks and condi clears are utility skills and are often the same skill. We are talking skills such as "Shake it off" "Contemplation of purity" "Ranger utilities in conjunction with Wilderness Lore" "Plague Sig/Spectral Walk" "ect ect". So what happens is that while vs. power damage, a player only worries about using these skills for stun breaks. But while vs. condi damage, a player has to use these skills for clears and stun breaks. Condi builds, especially ones that can burst, often make a player have to cycle through their utilities & other abilities twice as quickly as normal. When condi builds are left too strong, they become dominant to the point that there is little to no practical counter play at all for this reason for forcing cool downs out of players too quickly with unavoidable nearly no telegraph AoE damage.
    5. My Suggestion - Due to how conditions were implemented into Guild Wars 2 in conjunction with how clears & stun breaks & other effects were implemented, conditions should only ever be attrition. Under no circumstances should any class/build ever be able to burst with conditions in the same way that a power build can burst. Condition based attacks have a negligent amount of telegraphs and too much AoE spam which makes the game dynamic feel sloppy, less skill based, and in general less fun to play.

    Nah.

    Best Dressed Memser NA.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 13, 2020

    Oh and furthermore, please take care of Holosmith next patch.

    The community is a point of beyond frustration with its overperformance.

    1. Tempest Shocking Aura
    2. Grenade Holosaiyan

    ^ Absolute top 2 builds that are seriously overperforming and need to be toned down.

  • Shiyo.3578Shiyo.3578 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Don't forget glyph and any res utility in general.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 17, 2020

    Let me take an alternative way of explaining why passive CC is busted, dumb and in no way healthy for the game.

    Ok so take Flashbang as example, which resets and creates its effect on each dodge roll.

    With classes/builds that deal all of their damage packed into single strikes, these passive hard & soft CCs are straight removing a very large portion of their damage output. So take a Soulbeast as example, when it goes into Greatsword side, all of the damage is within Maul > Worldy > Hilt into Maul. So if a Flashbang dodge interrupt effects this, not only does it remove 1/3rd of that combo damage but it also stops the combo entirely, passively, for free. Then the holo only needs to slap an auto on you to activate the blind, which will immediately negate another 1/3rd of that combo's damage. This same effect applies to everything that lands its damage more sorted into single strike attacks rather than pulsing tick effects.

    Then on the other hand, some classes/builds don't feel the effects of passive CC play like this very much at all. For two reasons. 1) They have more stab, and 2) Most of their attack damage lands in multi-strike ticks. A great example of this is Core Guard or Reaper right now, which both have several attacks that multi strike tick and they both have access to timely stability. When a Guardian's attack combo looks something like: > Focus 5 > Focus 4 multi ticks > Scepter 2 multi ticks > Sword 2 multi ticks > Sword 3 multi ticks > Burn stacks upon this from multi ticks, things like Flashbang or Shock Aura even without vs. stability, are negating a very very small amount of damage from this combo string. Certainly nothing even close to negating 2/3rds of that combo's string. Maybe more like 1/30th or even 1/40th.

    But after really noticing this effect, I am convinced that this ^ is largely why aoe spam builds are the in thing right now, and currently nearly required to compete at higher levels. These passive CCs are too much stopping pressure vs. builds that pack their damage in longer interval single strikes.

    These passive CCs need to be culled. This stuff actually broke the game in ways that it has never been broken before.

  • this game needs condi caps on stacks and duration, same for boons. until then its an aoe spam fest full of clowns pirates and derpnados.

    Te lazla otstara.

  • Shiyo.3578Shiyo.3578 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Yes, passive CC/blinds being given out like candy to literally every new trait revamp is one of the biggest issues right now.