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ED domains....

Bast.7253Bast.7253 Member ✭✭✭✭

There doesn't seem to be a whole lot of consistency with the different domains, but we have so far:

Primordus - Fire and Conflagration
Jormag - Ice and Persuasion
Zhaitan - Death and Shadow
Kralk - Crystal and Fury
Mordremoth - Plant and Mind
DSD - presumably Water and something else.

Conflagration seems as though it could mean fire or conflict/war. It would be a little odd to have Fire twice.

Without seeing a pattern it's hard to speculate as to why the domains would have been devised this way. Am I missing a correlation here?
Conflagration, Persuasion, Shadow, Fury, Mind. Seems odd that Jormag would have domain over persuasion which seems oddly specific compared to the rest.

I wonder what the intention of this design was in terms of the natural cycle of life on Tyria.

Also thinking in terms of opposites and weaknesses, why Primordus and Jormag? Is it solely fire versus ice? Is it conflict versus persuasion?

Was just trying to think of what the DSD could be but some of these just seem a little too random and like there isn't much of a point in trying to find a pattern.

Comments

  • Svennis.3852Svennis.3852 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 1, 2020

    Water and Knowledge (or Secrets)

    Water and Terror (or Fear)

    Those are just based off the themes we've seen surrounding the DSD. We don't know anything about it (power to suppress knowledge about its identity, perhaps) and what we do know makes it sound strange, incomprehensible, and potentially terrifying (hence, terror/fear). Not exactly evidence, but it's the best I can come up with.

    However, if the DSD turns out to be benevolent (unlikely based on what little we do know of it), all of this could be moot and perhaps it's water and rainbows. /shrug

  • Bast.7253Bast.7253 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Hmm, what about Water and Spirit?

    One would have originally thought Jormag would have been Spirit given how it coaxes people, but now that we know it's persuasion it seems like a possibility. I mean really anything is a possibility at this point. Just throwing things out there.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Bast.7253 said:
    There doesn't seem to be a whole lot of consistency with the different domains, but we have so far:

    Primordus - Fire and Conflagration
    Jormag - Ice and Persuasion
    Zhaitan - Death and Shadow
    Kralk - Crystal and Fury
    Mordremoth - Plant and Mind
    DSD - presumably Water and something else.

    Conflagration seems as though it could mean fire or conflict/war. It would be a little odd to have Fire twice.

    Without seeing a pattern it's hard to speculate as to why the domains would have been devised this way. Am I missing a correlation here?
    Conflagration, Persuasion, Shadow, Fury, Mind. Seems odd that Jormag would have domain over persuasion which seems oddly specific compared to the rest.

    I wonder what the intention of this design was in terms of the natural cycle of life on Tyria.

    Also thinking in terms of opposites and weaknesses, why Primordus and Jormag? Is it solely fire versus ice? Is it conflict versus persuasion?

    Was just trying to think of what the DSD could be but some of these just seem a little too random and like there isn't much of a point in trying to find a pattern.

    I suspect Primordus secondary domain of conflagration is supposed to be destruction.

    Jormag’s Persuasion domain is pretty self explanatory.

    I had a theory with some support from in game mobs that Zhaitan’s Shadow domain is how he suppressed the divine energy of the gods in Orr.

    Kralkatorrik’s Fury domain is a tough one. Not sure if this suppose to be angry rage. A number of his skills have to do with anger or ire, as well as several skills that have fury in it including Aurene’s skills and Fury of the Brand. Hard to determine, but could be as simple as anger.

    Mordremoth Mind domain is much like Jormag’s pretty self explanatory.

    Unknown about DSD, though I like the fear aspect.

    The secondary domains appear to be for the most part meta physical or intangible, except maybe the Shadow domain and perhaps conflagration. That being said perhaps there are some simple connections between these domain such as Shadow and Conflagration are somewhat physical. Mind and Persuasion are mental and if the DSD does end up with fear, Fury and Fear would be emotional.

  • Bast.7253Bast.7253 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Also have to wonder still why Jormag and Primordus seem to be the only two with solid evidence that they directly counter each other. It can't be as simple as fire and ice.

    Why do none of the others seem to?

    I find the whole Koda thing really interesting to. When it mentions the Fire Spirit growing and causing destruction in its wake. Could this fire spirit have been Primordus?
    It mentions Spirits of Stone, Water, Wind, Soil, Plants, and essentially all life.

    Could these spirits have manifested in the same way the Spirit of Fire did? Becoming the elder dragons we know today?

    It feels like we have so little left of this Saga and still so much lore that hasn't been touched in terms of the Norn, Spirits, or Koda.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 1, 2020

    @Bast.7253 said:
    Also have to wonder still why Jormag and Primordus seem to be the only two with solid evidence that they directly counter each other. It can't be as simple as fire and ice.

    Why do none of the others seem to?

    Zhaitan and Mordremoth do seem to counter each other, based on Season 3.

    In Season 3 Episode 3 A Crack in the Ice, we have the Unstable Abomination in which we see plant and death magic creatures explode and harm the opposite upon death. In Episode 6 One Path Ends, there's dialogue in Siren's Landing that suggests that where Zhaitan was death, Mordremoth was life, making them opposites.

    If Anet ever decides to solidify the implication, then Kralkatorrik/Aurene and the DSD are also opposites.

    This would also indicate that Jormag's unique weakness is not Primordus (and vice versa) and that there is another method to kill both, that may be less harmful to the world.

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  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 1, 2020

    @Bast.7253 said:
    It feels like we have so little left of this Saga and still so much lore that hasn't been touched in terms of the Norn, Spirits, or Koda.

    Well, there was a book back in episode 2 that said Jormag knows something about the Kodan, the other races of Tyria, and the Mists. I could see them expanding upon that if/when we got back into the Shiverpeaks.

    I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Anet pull a "Koda is actually Jormag" twist(and I use that word with heavy sarcasm). People have already pointed out how the claw/voice system the Kodan use is the same of Jormag's claw and voice. Some Kodan in Still Waters speaking speculate on the possibility. And Jormag claims to want to spare the Norn because it sees them as strong, and worthy, perhaps it did the same with the Kodan last cycle.

  • Bast.7253Bast.7253 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Bast.7253 said:
    Also have to wonder still why Jormag and Primordus seem to be the only two with solid evidence that they directly counter each other. It can't be as simple as fire and ice.

    Why do none of the others seem to?

    Zhaitan and Mordremoth do seem to counter each other, based on Season 3.

    In Season 3 Episode 3 A Crack in the Ice, we have the Unstable Abomination in which we see plant and death magic creatures explode and harm the opposite upon death. In Episode 6 One Path Ends, there's dialogue in Siren's Landing that suggests that where Zhaitan was death, Mordremoth was life, making them opposites.

    If Anet ever decides to solidify the implication, then Kralkatorrik/Aurene and the DSD are also opposites.

    This would also indicate that Jormag's unique weakness is not Primordus (and vice versa) and that there is another method to kill both, that may be less harmful to the world.

    That makes sense. And provides a good excuse as to why Aurene wouldn't be able to be heavily involved in the upcoming expansion. I forgot about Season 3 and the unstable abomination but it did seem like Zhaitan and Mordremoth should have been conflicting forces.

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Bast.7253 said:
    It feels like we have so little left of this Saga and still so much lore that hasn't been touched in terms of the Norn, Spirits, or Koda.

    Well, there was a book back in episode 2 that said Jormag knows something about the Kodan, the other races of Tyria, and the Mists. I could see them expanding upon that if/when we got back into the Shiverpeaks.

    I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Anet pull a "Koda is actually Jormag" twist(and I use that word with heavy sarcasm). People have already pointed out how the claw/voice system the Kodan use is the same of Jormag's claw and voice. Some Kodan in Still Waters speaking speculate on the possibility. And Jormag claims to want to spare the Norn because it sees them as strong, and worthy, perhaps it did the same with the Kodan last cycle.

    I'd buy it. It would be nice to get a little background on Koda either way. I wonder if Jormag was once GOOD, or if it was just much more mild in terms of using its persuasion and has gone mad over the centuries like Kralk did, corrupting its original intent then. I guess this would mean that Jormag created the spirits of the wild.

    So many interesting possibilities.

  • Taril.8619Taril.8619 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Bast.7253 said:
    Also have to wonder still why Jormag and Primordus seem to be the only two with solid evidence that they directly counter each other. It can't be as simple as fire and ice.

    Why do none of the others seem to?

    Zhaitan and Mordremoth do seem to counter each other, based on Season 3.

    In Season 3 Episode 3 A Crack in the Ice, we have the Unstable Abomination in which we see plant and death magic creatures explode and harm the opposite upon death. In Episode 6 One Path Ends, there's dialogue in Siren's Landing that suggests that where Zhaitan was death, Mordremoth was life, making them opposites.

    If Anet ever decides to solidify the implication, then Kralkatorrik/Aurene and the DSD are also opposites.

    This would also indicate that Jormag's unique weakness is not Primordus (and vice versa) and that there is another method to kill both, that may be less harmful to the world.

    It's also worth noting, that the main "Counter" we would see beyond Jormag (Ice) and Primordus (Fire) would be Zhaitan (Death) and Mordremoth (Life).

    The latter, however, is mixed due to we only tackle Mordremoth after having defeated Zhaitan which split his power between the other dragons (Including primarily Mordremoth)

    Beyond that, well, for the purposes of looking to defeat Elder Dragons, we've only really been looking at the 2 that are close to home, Jormag and Primordus. We have not considered taking on the DSD yet. However, one could argue that Jormag and Primordus could both have a similar "Counter" relationship with DSD:

    • Jormag (Ice) vs DSD (Water). Ice is literally frozen Water... Using Ice magic vs DSD would likely counter it by freezing it.
    • Primordus (Fire) vs DSD (Water). Water can quench Fire. But Fire can also evaporate Water.

    It's just, this hasn't been looked into as of yet. Nor does it seem too likely that it will, if we're taking out Jormag in the current IBS, before we go to Cantha and deal with the DSD.

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  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    One thing I did notice when reading the magazine article before IBS was released was that they described Aurene as the dragon of light. If hypothetically Primordus is the last dragon and acquired varying pieces of magic domain from each Elder Dragon, will he become the Dragon of Darkness.

  • EdwinLi.1284EdwinLi.1284 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 1, 2020

    Well if some how the hypothesis that Kanaxai maybe a ancient DSD minion, then DSD maybe related to Water and Nightmares.

    The thing about the Deep part of the ocean is that it is a common ideal place for horror stories to hide being of nightmare due to how dark and unknown the deep part of the oceans are.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @EdwinLi.1284 said:
    Well if some how the hypothesis that Kanaxai maybe a ancient DSD minion, then DSD maybe related to Water and Nightmares.

    Kanaxi doesn't really fit the profile of a water based lifeform, nor does it match the description of DSD minions, which are described as tentacled horrors.

    Back in GW1 he was classified as a demon, so he likely came from the Mists.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 1, 2020

    @EdwinLi.1284 said:
    Well if some how the hypothesis that Kanaxai maybe a ancient DSD minion, then DSD maybe related to Water and Nightmares.

    The thing about the Deep part of the ocean is that it is a common ideal place for horror stories to hide being of nightmare due to how dark and unknown the deep part of the oceans are.

    Fear would be a good secondary domain for the DSD though as described by the dark and murky depths of the ocean.

    Though I’m curious of the DSD minions and their name.

  • EdwinLi.1284EdwinLi.1284 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 2, 2020

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @EdwinLi.1284 said:
    Well if some how the hypothesis that Kanaxai maybe a ancient DSD minion, then DSD maybe related to Water and Nightmares.

    Kanaxi doesn't really fit the profile of a water based lifeform, nor does it match the description of DSD minions, which are described as tentacled horrors.

    Back in GW1 he was classified as a demon, so he likely came from the Mists.

    It is unknown what Kanaxai really is even to this day. The Luxons only called it a demon due to his appearance and at that time it was the best they could do with describing him since little is known about him.

    A lot of unknowns about where Kanaxai comes from and why he remained that "deep" in the Jade Sea is still in question which I do hope they answer in GW2 since we are returning to Cantha.

    He could be just a normal demon that got accidently trapped there in the deep part of the Jade Sea or maybe a humanoid race corrupted during the previous elder dragon rising who is only in the early stages of the corrupt before the whole tentacle horrors takes form.

    To this day I am still very curious about Kanaxai and why he was down there in the Deep because from what little we know about him, we know so far that he has always been down there in the deep for unknown reasons even before the Jade wind turned the sea into Jade.

    Though the best thing I can guess if Anet decides to finally explain who and what Kanaxai is will either be the Cantha Expansion Raid or actually make Kanaxai or atleast lore about him part of Cantha's Main storyline.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @EdwinLi.1284 said:
    Though the best thing I can guess if Anet decides to finally explain who and what Kanaxai is will either be the Cantha Expansion Raid or actually make Kanaxai or atleast lore about him part of Cantha's Main storyline.

    I would love to see Kanaxai and Urgoz reborn as raids in GW2, even though I have never touched raids, and never will. Would be a nice callback to how they were in GW1.

  • @EdwinLi.1284 said:
    Well if some how the hypothesis that Kanaxai maybe a ancient DSD minion, then DSD maybe related to Water and Nightmares.

    The thing about the Deep part of the ocean is that it is a common ideal place for horror stories to hide being of nightmare due to how dark and unknown the deep part of the oceans are.

    The Deep is actually a cave system, it has nothing to do with the ocean. It's a Luxon jade quarry on the edge of the Jade Sea that broke into an ancient underground cave system that was turned into a prison by the Jade Wind solidifying the Jade Sea.

    @EdwinLi.1284 said:
    It is unknown what Kanaxai really is even to this day. The Luxons only called it a demon due to his appearance and at that time it was the best they could do with describing him since little is known about him.

    A lot of unknowns about where Kanaxai comes from and why he remained that "deep" in the Jade Sea is still in question which I do hope they answer in GW2 since we are returning to Cantha.

    It's unknown if you disregard the Prima Guide and Luxon dialogue that repeatedly calls it a nightmare demon / demon of nightmares, which feeds on and utilize victims' fears and nightmares (not to be confused with evil souls known as Nightmares).

    He didn't remain there by choice. The Jade Wind imprisoned him in the cave system due to the petrification of the Jade Sea.

    Like was said, there's no visual similarity between Kanaxai and the small description of the DSD. While it very well might be possible that they'll retcon to reveal it as a champion or something of the DSD, it seems unlikely to me given we are told what it is and why it is there in GW1. Its history may be unknown, but not its nature.

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  • EdwinLi.1284EdwinLi.1284 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 2, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    It's unknown if you disregard the Prima Guide and Luxon dialogue that repeatedly calls it a nightmare demon / demon of nightmares, which feeds on and utilize victims' fears and nightmares (not to be confused with evil souls known as Nightmares).

    He didn't remain there by choice. The Jade Wind imprisoned him in the cave system due to the petrification of the Jade Sea.

    Like was said, there's no visual similarity between Kanaxai and the small description of the DSD. While it very well might be possible that they'll retcon to reveal it as a champion or something of the DSD, it seems unlikely to me given we are told what it is and why it is there in GW1. Its history may be unknown, but not its nature.

    Keep in mind I did say IF the hypothesis ends up being true. I am not in absolute certainty the nature of Kanaxai maybe related to DSD or not due to kanaxai's mysterious history about his past as the only info we have on Kanaxai is based around what Luxon's known about him from the short amount of time they encountered him and what he did in GW1.

    I am aware what the Luxon called it and why but as I said their views about Kanaxai is based on what they believe the best explanation for what Kanaxai is since he was myteriously found in the deep and his appearance looked like a Demon. The title Demon of Nightmares most likely came from the Luxons because of his powers to cause nightmares, obsessive nature with nightmares, and affect people with nightmares.

    Yes the Jade Wind made it into his prison but that also means Kanaxai was already down in the Deep before the events of the Jade Wind for currently unknown reasons. They never explained why Kanaxai was down in the Deep before events of the Jade Wind which is one of the big mysteries surrounding Kanaxai. Only thing we know about Kanaxai is what the Luxon called him and what he did in GW1.

    Basically everything about Kanaxai before events of GW1 is unknown from Origins, Backstory, reason for being in the Deep before Jade Wind, if he has any allegiance, and etc.

    It is because of this why I expect to some degree for Anet to answer the mystery behind Kanaxai either through Main Story, Side story, or Raid even if he has no relation to the DSD assuming Anet have not forgotten him. They left Kanaxai's story far too mysterious and open for future use.

    If Anet does choose to relate Kanaxai to the DSD then they already have the current materials to explain why without any retcons since all information about Kanaxai is based on what little the Luxon knows about him and assumes about him during the events of GW1 and nothing about Kanaxai before the Jade Wind. They just need the right story to bridge the events to the moment when Kanaxai became trapped in the Deep by the Jade Wind. However, as I said this is only a IF Anet choose to relate Kanaxai to DSD since Kanaxai's mysterious past makes this character very flexable with his use in GW2 storyline for even a story unrelated to the Elder Dragons.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 2, 2020

    @EdwinLi.1284 said:
    I am aware what the Luxon called it and why but as I said their views about Kanaxai is based on what they believe the best explanation for what Kanaxai is since he was myteriously found in the deep and his appearance looked like a Demon. The title Demon of Nightmares most likely came from the Luxons because of his powers to cause nightmares, obsessive nature with nightmares, and affect people with nightmares.

    It should be noted that just because ANet didn't have Luxons tell us about Kanaxai's origins, doesn't mean that they don't know it. I mean, Eurayle shows he knew about Kanaxai from ancient times, they would no doubt have known more than what Eurayle says - that Kanaxai was a demon of nightmares trapped by the Jade Wind. They would know of something Kanaxai did before being trapped, otherwise they wouldn't know of Kanaxai.

    ANet just never added it to the game.

    As to this:

    Yes the Jade Wind made it into his prison but that also means Kanaxai was already down in the Deep before the events of the Jade Wind for currently unknown reasons. They never explained why Kanaxai was down in the Deep before events of the Jade Wind which is one of the big mysteries surrounding Kanaxai. Only thing we know about Kanaxai is what the Luxon called him and what he did in GW1.

    My point in specifying what The Deep is, was to denote that despite its name, it has nothing to do with the deep sea.

    It is because of this why I expect to some degree for Anet to answer the mystery behind Kanaxai either through Main Story, Side story, or Raid even if he has no relation to the DSD assuming Anet have not forgotten him. They left Kanaxai's story far too mysterious and open for future use.

    I doubt Kanaxai will show up at all.

    We've been in areas of characters with little to no history in GW1, and heard nothing of them in GW2 (e.g., the lich Zoldark). Kanaxai was killed, and by all rights his history and influence gone with it.

    And ANet has had an ever-growing habit of ignoring choice pieces of pre-Season 3 lore and aesthetics ever since Season 3 began.

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  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @EdwinLi.1284 said:
    Though the best thing I can guess if Anet decides to finally explain who and what Kanaxai is will either be the Cantha Expansion Raid or actually make Kanaxai or atleast lore about him part of Cantha's Main storyline.

    I would love to see Kanaxai and Urgoz reborn as raids in GW2, even though I have never touched raids, and never will. Would be a nice callback to how they were in GW1.

    It would definitely be an area that I think raids should go. It was an elite mission after all. If Anet decided this our last two raids or whatever, then I’m satisfied with that.

  • Fenom.9457Fenom.9457 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Water and fear is the best and most likely choice. I could also see it being “mystery” (the ability to hide itself I guess, or keep people confused) or “knowledge”, as in its own ability to hide knowledge of itself and it being a very wise and possibly all-knowing dragon

    I'd rather keep going.. wherever the wind takes us

  • Hannelore.8153Hannelore.8153 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 8, 2020

    Zhaitan had two weaknesses, firstly overreliance on specialised minions, and secondly Modremoth.

    A sword created by Sylvari, Modremoth's minions, and a Sylvari champion (Trahearne, and possibly the PC), were responsible for the cleansing of Orr. Even though they weren't under his control they were still born from his genetics and magics.

    Its specifically stated that breathing life into Orr was the dragon's downfall, and in LS3 Modremoth is said to bring life. This means that Modremoth possibly could've defeated Zhaitan in a direct conflict by simply returning life to Orr, even if it meant it was "dark and dangerous" life, because Zhaitan thrived on the land being dead, since Death is his domain and thus the source of his power.

    Sylvari were also immune to Zhaitan's corruption. Against Modremoth's minions, Zhaitan would've had no chance.

    Each dragon has a unique, respective weakness, but some are suggested to have multiple weaknesses. Its not known if Modremoth would've been weak to Zhaitan in any way, but given Jormag/Primordus relationship, its likely.

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  • @Hannelore.8153 said:
    Zhaitan had two weaknesses, firstly overreliance on specialised minions, and secondly Modremoth.

    A sword created by Sylvari, Modremoth's minions, and a Sylvari champion (Trahearne, and possibly the PC), were responsible for the cleansing of Orr. Even though they weren't under his control they were still born from his genetics and magics.

    Its specifically stated that breathing life into Orr was the dragon's downfall, and in LS3 Modremoth is said to bring life. This means that Modremoth possibly could've defeated Zhaitan in a direct conflict by simply returning life to Orr, even if it meant it was "dark and dangerous" life, because Zhaitan thrived on the land being dead, since Death is his domain and thus the source of his power.

    What Trahearne did was effectively remove Zhaitan's corruption from the Artesian Waters. Another way to look at it was that Trahearne "corrupted" it with Mordremoth's domain - this wouldn't necessarily make it Zhaitan's weakness, since what weakened him from this act was the removal of his corruption. In theory, any Elder Dragon could have corrupted the Artesian Waters and removed Zhaitan's corruption, or a Forgotten or Divine spell could have been used for similar effects. In any of these scenarios, Zhaitan would have been weakened simply because of the removal of his corruption over the ley line hub that was underneath The Artesian Waters.

    What weakened him wasn't Trahearne or Caladbolg, but him no longer being able to draw magic from the ley line hub beneath Orr. Just like Kralkatorrik was weakened by Aurene branding over and blocking the three ley lines that Kralkatorrik was feeding off of in The Descent, before we entered his body.

    Sylvari were also immune to Zhaitan's corruption. Against Modremoth's minions, Zhaitan would've had no chance.

    Sylvari are immune to all dragon corruption. Risen and Branded are explicitly mentioned, but all dragon corruption is indicated. Though it isn't true immunity - what happens is that a sylvari dies when exposed to dragon corruption; which means it's more of a defense mechanism than actual immunity. Further, Season 2 and HoT promotions establish this "immunity" is caused by the "protection of the Pale Tree", and their connection to the Dream - it's established that Soundless are not protected, thus could theoretically be corrupted (we, sadly, never see this happen - the closest we get is Scarlet and Aerin falling to Mordremoth far sooner than any other sylvari).

    Each dragon has a unique, respective weakness, but some are suggested to have multiple weaknesses. Its not known if Modremoth would've been weak to Zhaitan in any way, but given Jormag/Primordus relationship, its likely.

    Based on the Unstable Abomination, Mordremoth was indeed weak to Zhaitan too.

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  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    Zhaitan had two weaknesses, firstly overreliance on specialised minions, and secondly Modremoth.

    A sword created by Sylvari, Modremoth's minions, and a Sylvari champion (Trahearne, and possibly the PC), were responsible for the cleansing of Orr. Even though they weren't under his control they were still born from his genetics and magics.

    Its specifically stated that breathing life into Orr was the dragon's downfall, and in LS3 Modremoth is said to bring life. This means that Modremoth possibly could've defeated Zhaitan in a direct conflict by simply returning life to Orr, even if it meant it was "dark and dangerous" life, because Zhaitan thrived on the land being dead, since Death is his domain and thus the source of his power.

    What Trahearne did was effectively remove Zhaitan's corruption from the Artesian Waters. Another way to look at it was that Trahearne "corrupted" it with Mordremoth's domain - this wouldn't necessarily make it Zhaitan's weakness, since what weakened him from this act was the removal of his corruption. In theory, any Elder Dragon could have corrupted the Artesian Waters and removed Zhaitan's corruption, or a Forgotten or Divine spell could have been used for similar effects. In any of these scenarios, Zhaitan would have been weakened simply because of the removal of his corruption over the ley line hub that was underneath The Artesian Waters.

    What weakened him wasn't Trahearne or Caladbolg, but him no longer being able to draw magic from the ley line hub beneath Orr. Just like Kralkatorrik was weakened by Aurene branding over and blocking the three ley lines that Kralkatorrik was feeding off of in The Descent, before we entered his body.

    Sylvari were also immune to Zhaitan's corruption. Against Modremoth's minions, Zhaitan would've had no chance.

    Sylvari are immune to all dragon corruption. Risen and Branded are explicitly mentioned, but all dragon corruption is indicated. Though it isn't true immunity - what happens is that a sylvari dies when exposed to dragon corruption; which means it's more of a defense mechanism than actual immunity. Further, Season 2 and HoT promotions establish this "immunity" is caused by the "protection of the Pale Tree", and their connection to the Dream - it's established that Soundless are not protected, thus could theoretically be corrupted (we, sadly, never see this happen - the closest we get is Scarlet and Aerin falling to Mordremoth far sooner than any other sylvari).

    Each dragon has a unique, respective weakness, but some are suggested to have multiple weaknesses. Its not known if Modremoth would've been weak to Zhaitan in any way, but given Jormag/Primordus relationship, its likely.

    Based on the Unstable Abomination, Mordremoth was indeed weak to Zhaitan too.

    What’s really odd is that Zhaitan was not able to make Risen out of Sylvari that died. You would think that once there spirit had left their body then Zhaitan could corrupt that corpse, since you would think that the Pale Tree could not offer its protection on something that’s deceased, unless the body was still somehow protected, which doesn’t make a lot of sense.

  • While Zhaitan was capable of corrupting plants (as we see in Bloodtide Coast and Sparkfly Fen), but never bothered turning any into minions. Similarly, Zhaitan never made minions out of elements, unlike most other Elder Dragons. So either the Dream continues to touch sylvari post-mortem, or Zhaitan simply didn't want to make minions out of plants.

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  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    While Zhaitan was capable of corrupting plants (as we see in Bloodtide Coast and Sparkfly Fen), but never bothered turning any into minions. Similarly, Zhaitan never made minions out of elements, unlike most other Elder Dragons. So either the Dream continues to touch sylvari post-mortem, or Zhaitan simply didn't want to make minions out of plants.

    I would hope the former, because the latter makes no sense. Actually, neither makes sense to be honest.

    I would think that Zhaitan would need something biological, so that probably rules out elementals. Zhaitan corrupting the flora fauna probably because that appeared to what happened when his influence entered an area. A live plant reacts much like an undead plant, neither are really animated.

  • I dunno about needing something biological and ruling out elementals - Zhaitan's corruption does influence the sky, land, and water - just like every other dragon corruption. And Primordus, Jormag, Kralkatorrik, and the DSD are all capable of making minions out of elements. I imagine Mordremoth is too, but it never had much chance to do more than corrupting local plantlife into mordrem (its primary method of corrupting) as far as we are aware.

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    A live plant reacts much like an undead plant, neither are really animated.

    I would disagree here, on the basis that mobile plants aren't an abnormality in the world, and based on lore, mobile plants are a thing due to abundance of magical energy. As such, dragon corruption of plants should result in mobile plants, regardless of magical domain.

    Plus, there were bound to be treants nearby where Zhaitan's risen have moved, and even if "undead plants act the same as live plants", well, those live plants are certainly mobile and interactive.

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  • Can Zhaitan's corruption bind the soul to the minion. I believe so. At least the most powerful minions has souls/ghosts like King Reza bound to them (why was Reza's ghost still around after 100 years and not passing into the mists I don't really know). There is dialogue indicating Kralkatorric's brand does so, and Jormag can torment a soul even after separation from the body. Maybe Jormag can even corrupt a ghost/soul that died a while ago. For example Jormag seems to be trying to take/torment souls from kodan shrines for the dead.

    Perhaps Zhaitan only creates minions for which it can also take/use the soul or take memories from and there where plenty of bodies with ghosts around to not really care about creating elemental like minions from plant matter. The sylvari pact soldiers in the Zhaitain campaign couldn't betray military tactics and secrets in death, and that is probably more important than a few more bodies in the horde of undead. (Against Mordremoth sylvari couldn't be trusted with such information when alive).
    So the choice to not corrupt sylvari bodies or create elementals might have been quite simple, it didn't consider such things worth it. There are plenty more useful things to take.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @PseudoNewb.5468 said:
    Can Zhaitan's corruption bind the soul to the minion. I believe so. At least the most powerful minions has souls/ghosts like King Reza bound to them (why was Reza's ghost still around after 100 years and not passing into the mists I don't really know). There is dialogue indicating Kralkatorric's brand does so, and Jormag can torment a soul even after separation from the body. Maybe Jormag can even corrupt a ghost/soul that died a while ago. For example Jormag seems to be trying to take/torment souls from kodan shrines for the dead.

    Perhaps Zhaitan only creates minions for which it can also take/use the soul or take memories from and there where plenty of bodies with ghosts around to not really care about creating elemental like minions from plant matter. The sylvari pact soldiers in the Zhaitain campaign couldn't betray military tactics and secrets in death, and that is probably more important than a few more bodies in the horde of undead. (Against Mordremoth sylvari couldn't be trusted with such information when alive).
    So the choice to not corrupt sylvari bodies or create elementals might have been quite simple, it didn't consider such things worth it. There are plenty more useful things to take.

    A corpse of a Sylvari is just so much valuable when you have these large battles. Each battle you raise up more undead. That’s the why the Sylvari were a key tactic to the victory in Orr, they didn’t add to Zhaitan’s number when they died. Which would really be a stupid move on Zhaitan’s part to not corrupt them. Which really points to that Zhaitan couldn’t raise them or he would have and deny the strategy that the Sylvari provided the pact. Which means that Sylvari must have protection from Zhaitan from the Pale Tree even in death.

    What’s a little strange though is how Mordremoth was able to corrupt Sylvari when they died, like in the case of Diarmid. You would think the protection from death would carry over like from Zhaitan. Maybe the protection didn’t matter once Mordremoth acquired the death spectrum and just overwrought whatever little protection the Pale Tree provided in her weakened state.

  • Eekasqueak.7850Eekasqueak.7850 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @PseudoNewb.5468 said:
    Can Zhaitan's corruption bind the soul to the minion. I believe so. At least the most powerful minions has souls/ghosts like King Reza bound to them (why was Reza's ghost still around after 100 years and not passing into the mists I don't really know). There is dialogue indicating Kralkatorric's brand does so, and Jormag can torment a soul even after separation from the body. Maybe Jormag can even corrupt a ghost/soul that died a while ago. For example Jormag seems to be trying to take/torment souls from kodan shrines for the dead.

    Perhaps Zhaitan only creates minions for which it can also take/use the soul or take memories from and there where plenty of bodies with ghosts around to not really care about creating elemental like minions from plant matter. The sylvari pact soldiers in the Zhaitain campaign couldn't betray military tactics and secrets in death, and that is probably more important than a few more bodies in the horde of undead. (Against Mordremoth sylvari couldn't be trusted with such information when alive).
    So the choice to not corrupt sylvari bodies or create elementals might have been quite simple, it didn't consider such things worth it. There are plenty more useful things to take.

    A corpse of a Sylvari is just so much valuable when you have these large battles. Each battle you raise up more undead. That’s the why the Sylvari were a key tactic to the victory in Orr, they didn’t add to Zhaitan’s number when they died. Which would really be a stupid move on Zhaitan’s part to not corrupt them. Which really points to that Zhaitan couldn’t raise them or he would have and deny the strategy that the Sylvari provided the pact. Which means that Sylvari must have protection from Zhaitan from the Pale Tree even in death.

    What’s a little strange though is how Mordremoth was able to corrupt Sylvari when they died, like in the case of Diarmid. You would think the protection from death would carry over like from Zhaitan. Maybe the protection didn’t matter once Mordremoth acquired the death spectrum and just overwrought whatever little protection the Pale Tree provided in her weakened state.

    Didn't Mordy put the pale tree and her protection out of commission for awhile during its attack in season 2?

  • @PseudoNewb.5468 said:
    Can Zhaitan's corruption bind the soul to the minion. I believe so. At least the most powerful minions has souls/ghosts like King Reza bound to them (why was Reza's ghost still around after 100 years and not passing into the mists I don't really know). There is dialogue indicating Kralkatorric's brand does so, and Jormag can torment a soul even after separation from the body. Maybe Jormag can even corrupt a ghost/soul that died a while ago. For example Jormag seems to be trying to take/torment souls from kodan shrines for the dead.

    Perhaps Zhaitan only creates minions for which it can also take/use the soul or take memories from and there where plenty of bodies with ghosts around to not really care about creating elemental like minions from plant matter. The sylvari pact soldiers in the Zhaitain campaign couldn't betray military tactics and secrets in death, and that is probably more important than a few more bodies in the horde of undead. (Against Mordremoth sylvari couldn't be trusted with such information when alive).
    So the choice to not corrupt sylvari bodies or create elementals might have been quite simple, it didn't consider such things worth it. There are plenty more useful things to take.

    Crusader Aliyana indicates that not all risen have bound souls. Similarly, Romke and his entire crew's bodies were made risen, but their ghosts are separate and roaming Orr. So we have two examples of bound souls (King Reza and the Keeper of the Shrine) and about eight unbound souls (Aliyana, Romke, and Romke's crew. Both Reza and the Keeper are intelligent risen commanding other risen, while Aliyana's body as well as Romke's crew, are all Risen Thralls/Brutes - among the most basic, mindless minions.

    This suggests that Zhaitan only needs the soul for intelligent minions, and is more than willing to make soulless, mindless minions. Even if Zhaitan always required a soul - sylvari have been confirmed to have souls in PoF, so that's not a reason for them to not be corruptible.

    As for Kralkatorrik's brand - it does not corrupt souls, but branding someone does not kill them, so that may result in branded still having souls, simply because they were never killed (Death-Branded may be another story then). Jormag's ability to corrupt souls comes from the Lost Spirits (specifically Ox and Wolverine), so that's not a good example.

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  • @Eekasqueak.7850 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @PseudoNewb.5468 said:
    Can Zhaitan's corruption bind the soul to the minion. I believe so. At least the most powerful minions has souls/ghosts like King Reza bound to them (why was Reza's ghost still around after 100 years and not passing into the mists I don't really know). There is dialogue indicating Kralkatorric's brand does so, and Jormag can torment a soul even after separation from the body. Maybe Jormag can even corrupt a ghost/soul that died a while ago. For example Jormag seems to be trying to take/torment souls from kodan shrines for the dead.

    Perhaps Zhaitan only creates minions for which it can also take/use the soul or take memories from and there where plenty of bodies with ghosts around to not really care about creating elemental like minions from plant matter. The sylvari pact soldiers in the Zhaitain campaign couldn't betray military tactics and secrets in death, and that is probably more important than a few more bodies in the horde of undead. (Against Mordremoth sylvari couldn't be trusted with such information when alive).
    So the choice to not corrupt sylvari bodies or create elementals might have been quite simple, it didn't consider such things worth it. There are plenty more useful things to take.

    A corpse of a Sylvari is just so much valuable when you have these large battles. Each battle you raise up more undead. That’s the why the Sylvari were a key tactic to the victory in Orr, they didn’t add to Zhaitan’s number when they died. Which would really be a stupid move on Zhaitan’s part to not corrupt them. Which really points to that Zhaitan couldn’t raise them or he would have and deny the strategy that the Sylvari provided the pact. Which means that Sylvari must have protection from Zhaitan from the Pale Tree even in death.

    What’s a little strange though is how Mordremoth was able to corrupt Sylvari when they died, like in the case of Diarmid. You would think the protection from death would carry over like from Zhaitan. Maybe the protection didn’t matter once Mordremoth acquired the death spectrum and just overwrought whatever little protection the Pale Tree provided in her weakened state.

    Didn't Mordy put the pale tree and her protection out of commission for awhile during its attack in season 2?

    Mostly correct - the Shadow of the Dragon's attack during The World Summit weakened the sylvari's protection which allowed him to more easily turn them into the Mordrem Guard. They still had some protection overall, but not as much, which was why those with strong wills could still resist Mordremoth - there was enough protection that Mordremoth couldn't just corrupt them, but there was little enough that he could twist them to serve him, and corrupt certain individuals under certain conditions, like Faolain.

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  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Eekasqueak.7850 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @PseudoNewb.5468 said:
    Can Zhaitan's corruption bind the soul to the minion. I believe so. At least the most powerful minions has souls/ghosts like King Reza bound to them (why was Reza's ghost still around after 100 years and not passing into the mists I don't really know). There is dialogue indicating Kralkatorric's brand does so, and Jormag can torment a soul even after separation from the body. Maybe Jormag can even corrupt a ghost/soul that died a while ago. For example Jormag seems to be trying to take/torment souls from kodan shrines for the dead.

    Perhaps Zhaitan only creates minions for which it can also take/use the soul or take memories from and there where plenty of bodies with ghosts around to not really care about creating elemental like minions from plant matter. The sylvari pact soldiers in the Zhaitain campaign couldn't betray military tactics and secrets in death, and that is probably more important than a few more bodies in the horde of undead. (Against Mordremoth sylvari couldn't be trusted with such information when alive).
    So the choice to not corrupt sylvari bodies or create elementals might have been quite simple, it didn't consider such things worth it. There are plenty more useful things to take.

    A corpse of a Sylvari is just so much valuable when you have these large battles. Each battle you raise up more undead. That’s the why the Sylvari were a key tactic to the victory in Orr, they didn’t add to Zhaitan’s number when they died. Which would really be a stupid move on Zhaitan’s part to not corrupt them. Which really points to that Zhaitan couldn’t raise them or he would have and deny the strategy that the Sylvari provided the pact. Which means that Sylvari must have protection from Zhaitan from the Pale Tree even in death.

    What’s a little strange though is how Mordremoth was able to corrupt Sylvari when they died, like in the case of Diarmid. You would think the protection from death would carry over like from Zhaitan. Maybe the protection didn’t matter once Mordremoth acquired the death spectrum and just overwrought whatever little protection the Pale Tree provided in her weakened state.

    Didn't Mordy put the pale tree and her protection out of commission for awhile during its attack in season 2?

    I would imagine that if a Sylvari alive or dead were thrown into either a blighting tree or blighting pod, you would still get a Mordrem, just like Diarmid. So I guess the Pale Trees protection does not extend to dead Sylvari as Diarmid was clearly deceased as advised by Occam.