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Imagine having an MMO 8 years old

Rukia.4802Rukia.4802 Member ✭✭✭

1 recognized (?) pvp mode

Let's count how much pvp content GW1 got.. with a much smaller budget and team.

<1

Comments

  • Blocki.4931Blocki.4931 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Imagine splitting the small playerbase so that people can have the illusion of choice.
    Or do you think it would get more people to play?

    Look at festivals. Look at the activities there. They're empty, because they're not interesting enough to keep people playing them without rewards. That's how alternate modes will look too.

  • Avatar.3568Avatar.3568 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Blocki.4931 said:
    Imagine splitting the small playerbase so that people can have the illusion of choice.
    Or do you think it would get more people to play?

    Look at festivals. Look at the activities there. They're empty, because they're not interesting enough to keep people playing them without rewards. That's how alternate modes will look too.

    You can't compare Pve to pvp, Pve has the big player base we're the big money is to make, the most efficient way, that's with pvp not the case

  • Alin.2468Alin.2468 Member ✭✭✭

    @Avatar.3568 said:

    @Blocki.4931 said:
    Imagine splitting the small playerbase so that people can have the illusion of choice.
    Or do you think it would get more people to play?

    Look at festivals. Look at the activities there. They're empty, because they're not interesting enough to keep people playing them without rewards. That's how alternate modes will look too.

    You can't compare Pve to pvp, Pve has the big player base we're the big money is to make, the most efficient way, that's with pvp not the case

    Yet PvP offers that continuity, keeping the player connected until late times, after legendaries are crafted, raids are completed, and he/she wishes to spike adrenaline.

    One man trash another man treasure.

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Rukia.4802 said:
    1 recognized (?) pvp mode

    Let's count how much pvp content GW1 got.. with a much smaller budget and team.

    Yep, because GW 1 was designed as a PvP game. Guild Wars 2 wasn't. : Even in Guild Wars 1 developed as time progressed, the updates were more and more PvE. And didn't expect PvE to be as popular as it was, but it was undeniably what ended up driving the game. The evidence is that Anet made Guild Wars 2 about PvE predominantly. You can tell by the number of updates PvE gets by comparison.

    Anet said, before Guild Wars 2 launched that they intentionally didn't talk about PVP for the first year after the announcement to try to break people out of the idea this was a PvP based game. They said this at shows and on panels. The focus of this game was always been PvE from day one. That's why it talked on the official website about the game being a living breathing world. That's why they focused on dynamic events.

  • It would definitely be nice to have an alternative but on the other hand the PvP playerbase isn't a big one and my fear is it would result in even longer q times. The other thing is keeping balance in every mode. They can't handle 1 mode to be balanced at all times.

  • Zawn.9647Zawn.9647 Member ✭✭✭

    @wevh.2903 said:
    This is ridiculous , lol has one competitive map xdd the point is switching the meta and playstyle

    HAHAHAHA are you serious? what an argument
    LoL is a moba, it has only one map because that's the game. 3 lanes, jungles and 2 bases, same as DotA.

    World of Warcraft is a MMO just like GW2... still, WoW has capture the flag, conquest, king of the hill, arena, etc. lots of game modes :)

  • wevh.2903wevh.2903 Member ✭✭✭

    @Zawn.9647 said:

    @wevh.2903 said:
    This is ridiculous , lol has one competitive map xdd the point is switching the meta and playstyle

    HAHAHAHA are you serious? what an argument
    LoL is a moba, it has only one map because that's the game. 3 lanes, jungles and 2 bases, same as DotA.

    World of Warcraft is a MMO just like GW2... still, WoW has capture the flag, conquest, king of the hill, arena, etc. lots of game modes :)

    As lol has 3 lanes , gw2 has three points and a secondary objetive thats the game and balance should be made around it .
    Gw2 pvp is totally different of other mmos

  • Zawn.9647Zawn.9647 Member ✭✭✭

    @wevh.2903 said:

    @Zawn.9647 said:

    @wevh.2903 said:
    This is ridiculous , lol has one competitive map xdd the point is switching the meta and playstyle

    HAHAHAHA are you serious? what an argument
    LoL is a moba, it has only one map because that's the game. 3 lanes, jungles and 2 bases, same as DotA.

    World of Warcraft is a MMO just like GW2... still, WoW has capture the flag, conquest, king of the hill, arena, etc. lots of game modes :)

    As lol has 3 lanes , gw2 has three points and a secondary objetive thats the game and balance should be made around it .
    Gw2 pvp is totally different of other mmos

    rofl ok
    if you want to compare apples to dogs, (not even oranges) go ahead :)

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    SPvP was a mistake to begin with. Should of been GvG/Alliance battles like the original game. Reinforcing guild importance and guild play, as well you could of added a mercenary feature where you "hire yourself out" to a guild when they need more people for a guild battle/alliance battle and get unique rewards. This way even if you're NOT IN A GUILD and DONT LIKE GUILDS you could get something from it.

    All Spvp seems to be a botched version of other PvP games, with MoBa's being the last addition~

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Rukia.4802 said:
    1 recognized (?) pvp mode

    Let's count how much pvp content GW1 got.. with a much smaller budget and team.

    Yep, because GW 1 was designed as a PvP game. Guild Wars 2 wasn't. : Even in Guild Wars 1 developed as time progressed, the updates were more and more PvE. And didn't expect PvE to be as popular as it was, but it was undeniably what ended up driving the game. The evidence is that Anet made Guild Wars 2 about PvE predominantly. You can tell by the number of updates PvE gets by comparison.

    Anet said, before Guild Wars 2 launched that they intentionally didn't talk about PVP for the first year after the announcement to try to break people out of the idea this was a PvP based game. They said this at shows and on panels. The focus of this game was always been PvE from day one. That's why it talked on the official website about the game being a living breathing world. That's why they focused on dynamic events.

    Thats why their steam page DIRECTLY talks about competitive play and that its a competitive game?
    https://gyazo.com/7c04627da02a77ffc38f65d04853cae2

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Rukia.4802 said:
    1 recognized (?) pvp mode

    Let's count how much pvp content GW1 got.. with a much smaller budget and team.

    Yep, because GW 1 was designed as a PvP game. Guild Wars 2 wasn't. : Even in Guild Wars 1 developed as time progressed, the updates were more and more PvE. And didn't expect PvE to be as popular as it was, but it was undeniably what ended up driving the game. The evidence is that Anet made Guild Wars 2 about PvE predominantly. You can tell by the number of updates PvE gets by comparison.

    Anet said, before Guild Wars 2 launched that they intentionally didn't talk about PVP for the first year after the announcement to try to break people out of the idea this was a PvP based game. They said this at shows and on panels. The focus of this game was always been PvE from day one. That's why it talked on the official website about the game being a living breathing world. That's why they focused on dynamic events.

    Thats why their steam page DIRECTLY talks about competitive play and that its a competitive game?
    https://gyazo.com/7c04627da02a77ffc38f65d04853cae2

    Sure they mention it. Just like a hotel that has tennis courts might mention them in an ad, but it doesn't make it a tennis hotel. There are four paragrpahs there, and one of them talks about competitive play which obviously from the wording covers both PvP and WvW. They're lumped in together in one paragraph. They don't even get their own seperate paragraph. Looks to me that one of the paragraphis there is about story, one is about dynamic events, one is about combat in general and one paragraph is shared between two completely different types of PvP.

    I don't know a lot of people who would argue at this point that this game is centered on PvP. Just look at the game updates Anet absolutely said what I said they said. That they didn't talk about PvP for the first year to make it clear this wasn't a PvP centric game. Because they had trouble getting people into GW 1 later on because everyone assumed it was a PvP centric game. They've never had the bulk of their devs working on PvP. And I don't know any PvPers who think they have.

    You can believe anything you want, but the evidence doesn't really support what you're implying here.

  • @Zawn.9647 said:

    @wevh.2903 said:
    This is ridiculous , lol has one competitive map xdd the point is switching the meta and playstyle

    HAHAHAHA are you serious? what an argument
    LoL is a moba, it has only one map because that's the game. 3 lanes, jungles and 2 bases, same as DotA.

    World of Warcraft is a MMO just like GW2... still, WoW has capture the flag, conquest, king of the hill, arena, etc. lots of game modes :)

    Arena is the only mode people care about in WoW, and WoW's PvP balance is atrocious right now. Even rated BGs are totally unimportant.

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Rukia.4802 said:
    1 recognized (?) pvp mode

    Let's count how much pvp content GW1 got.. with a much smaller budget and team.

    Yep, because GW 1 was designed as a PvP game. Guild Wars 2 wasn't. : Even in Guild Wars 1 developed as time progressed, the updates were more and more PvE. And didn't expect PvE to be as popular as it was, but it was undeniably what ended up driving the game. The evidence is that Anet made Guild Wars 2 about PvE predominantly. You can tell by the number of updates PvE gets by comparison.

    Anet said, before Guild Wars 2 launched that they intentionally didn't talk about PVP for the first year after the announcement to try to break people out of the idea this was a PvP based game. They said this at shows and on panels. The focus of this game was always been PvE from day one. That's why it talked on the official website about the game being a living breathing world. That's why they focused on dynamic events.

    Thats why their steam page DIRECTLY talks about competitive play and that its a competitive game?
    https://gyazo.com/7c04627da02a77ffc38f65d04853cae2

    Sure they mention it. Just like a hotel that has tennis courts might mention them in an ad, but it doesn't make it a tennis hotel. There are four paragrpahs there, and one of them talks about competitive play which obviously from the wording covers both PvP and WvW. They're lumped in together in one paragraph. They don't even get their own seperate paragraph. Looks to me that one of the paragraphis there is about story, one is about dynamic events, one is about combat in general and one paragraph is shared between two completely different types of PvP.

    I don't know a lot of people who would argue at this point that this game is centered on PvP. Just look at the game updates Anet absolutely said what I said they said. That they didn't talk about PvP for the first year to make it clear this wasn't a PvP centric game. Because they had trouble getting people into GW 1 later on because everyone assumed it was a PvP centric game. They've never had the bulk of their devs working on PvP. And I don't know any PvPers who think they have.

    You can believe anything you want, but the evidence doesn't really support what you're implying here.

    Actually it does, you don't need a combat engine or system like they have for PvE. Simple. Dodging was made popular by guild wars 2, sure tera online and a few others tried it but not to the extent this game has. It only shines in Competitive play; Its nice in PvE but most time its stack and spank unless in raids and even then most of the time its stack and spank. The combat engine was built for PvP, E-sports was their plan in HoT and failed due to balance, WvW was their end-game mode with dungeons and fractals as well new maps being the only thing PvE had.

    Ontop of that WvW DIRECTLY effected PvE and vice versa before the mega-servers. The game was built with PvP in mind and a bunch of PvE players began whining because it was the end-game, which was back when everyone claimed it had no end-game. Now end-game PvE exists and its more niche than WvW and it still gets more content Cadence (not saying alot here). Im sorry but the evidence points to end-game anything outside of PvE maps not being the focus, be it fractals, PvP, WvW, Raiding or what have you. The game is made to sell you new maps and mastery's and it has been this way since mid way through S3 of the living world~ And from the looks of it I'd say they are turning course back around to where ALL modes are taken better care of.

    You, as a PvE fiend who sit here and diminish the importance of competitive modes don't understand that there is a big market for PvP in mmo's. And when we go to steam there will be a pretty big fire being burnt because a lot of those people want competition. Just because you don't care/like/want or acknowledge the mode as anything more than a waste of time (guessing based on how you dismiss it) Doesn't mean everyone else does. I personally see raids and strikes, as well fractals as a waste of time as they offer no power increase for the BS that exist within those game modes. And the shenanigans and rude people who exist within them; Id rather those resources be put the work elsewhere but surprise, surprise... new fractal in sep. And fractals aren't even a focus in the game~ And haven't been for a long time.

    This game as never focused on PvP. For years and years and y ears, people in the PvP and WvW community have complained about lack of updates compared to PvE. You can try to spin this any way you like but it's just not the case. From launch, count the updates that affected each, it really is that simple.

    You may have a different opinion but the raised voices of the WvW and PvP community tell a completely different story. So does the raid community for that matter.

  • Omernon.9762Omernon.9762 Member ✭✭✭

    @Zawn.9647 said:

    @wevh.2903 said:
    This is ridiculous , lol has one competitive map xdd the point is switching the meta and playstyle

    HAHAHAHA are you serious? what an argument
    LoL is a moba, it has only one map because that's the game. 3 lanes, jungles and 2 bases, same as DotA.

    World of Warcraft is a MMO just like GW2... still, WoW has capture the flag, conquest, king of the hill, arena, etc. lots of game modes :)

    LMAO

    WoW has 2 pvp modes - BGs and Arena (both having rated version). EoT.

    By you logic GW2 also has MobA-style PvP with 2 lanes, Domination-style PvP, large scale PvP (WvW), Capture the Flag PvP (the one unranked map where u are carrying white orb for extra points), castle defense and huge amount of PvP modes in festivals.

    Does all that matter? No? So does all the pvp modes in WoW - the only end-game, legit PvP there is Rated Arena and that knows every PvP player that is worth something. And trust me - all the rank 1 players would swap pillar hugging pvp for objective-based, 5-man PvP like the one in GW2, because it is impossible to balance WoW in it's current state, last-man standing game mode that is Rated Arena.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Rukia.4802 said:
    1 recognized (?) pvp mode

    Let's count how much pvp content GW1 got.. with a much smaller budget and team.

    Yep, because GW 1 was designed as a PvP game. Guild Wars 2 wasn't. : Even in Guild Wars 1 developed as time progressed, the updates were more and more PvE. And didn't expect PvE to be as popular as it was, but it was undeniably what ended up driving the game. The evidence is that Anet made Guild Wars 2 about PvE predominantly. You can tell by the number of updates PvE gets by comparison.

    Anet said, before Guild Wars 2 launched that they intentionally didn't talk about PVP for the first year after the announcement to try to break people out of the idea this was a PvP based game. They said this at shows and on panels. The focus of this game was always been PvE from day one. That's why it talked on the official website about the game being a living breathing world. That's why they focused on dynamic events.

    Thats why their steam page DIRECTLY talks about competitive play and that its a competitive game?
    https://gyazo.com/7c04627da02a77ffc38f65d04853cae2

    Sure they mention it. Just like a hotel that has tennis courts might mention them in an ad, but it doesn't make it a tennis hotel. There are four paragrpahs there, and one of them talks about competitive play which obviously from the wording covers both PvP and WvW. They're lumped in together in one paragraph. They don't even get their own seperate paragraph. Looks to me that one of the paragraphis there is about story, one is about dynamic events, one is about combat in general and one paragraph is shared between two completely different types of PvP.

    I don't know a lot of people who would argue at this point that this game is centered on PvP. Just look at the game updates Anet absolutely said what I said they said. That they didn't talk about PvP for the first year to make it clear this wasn't a PvP centric game. Because they had trouble getting people into GW 1 later on because everyone assumed it was a PvP centric game. They've never had the bulk of their devs working on PvP. And I don't know any PvPers who think they have.

    You can believe anything you want, but the evidence doesn't really support what you're implying here.

    Actually it does, you don't need a combat engine or system like they have for PvE. Simple. Dodging was made popular by guild wars 2, sure tera online and a few others tried it but not to the extent this game has. It only shines in Competitive play; Its nice in PvE but most time its stack and spank unless in raids and even then most of the time its stack and spank. The combat engine was built for PvP, E-sports was their plan in HoT and failed due to balance, WvW was their end-game mode with dungeons and fractals as well new maps being the only thing PvE had.

    Ontop of that WvW DIRECTLY effected PvE and vice versa before the mega-servers. The game was built with PvP in mind and a bunch of PvE players began whining because it was the end-game, which was back when everyone claimed it had no end-game. Now end-game PvE exists and its more niche than WvW and it still gets more content Cadence (not saying alot here). Im sorry but the evidence points to end-game anything outside of PvE maps not being the focus, be it fractals, PvP, WvW, Raiding or what have you. The game is made to sell you new maps and mastery's and it has been this way since mid way through S3 of the living world~ And from the looks of it I'd say they are turning course back around to where ALL modes are taken better care of.

    You, as a PvE fiend who sit here and diminish the importance of competitive modes don't understand that there is a big market for PvP in mmo's. And when we go to steam there will be a pretty big fire being burnt because a lot of those people want competition. Just because you don't care/like/want or acknowledge the mode as anything more than a waste of time (guessing based on how you dismiss it) Doesn't mean everyone else does. I personally see raids and strikes, as well fractals as a waste of time as they offer no power increase for the BS that exist within those game modes. And the shenanigans and rude people who exist within them; Id rather those resources be put the work elsewhere but surprise, surprise... new fractal in sep. And fractals aren't even a focus in the game~ And haven't been for a long time.

    This game as never focused on PvP. For years and years and y ears, people in the PvP and WvW community have complained about lack of updates compared to PvE. You can try to spin this any way you like but it's just not the case. From launch, count the updates that affected each, it really is that simple.

    You may have a different opinion but the raised voices of the WvW and PvP community tell a completely different story. So does the raid community for that matter.

    Raids have been abandoned and you'll likely be hard pressed to see another one. PvE end-game is not successful here so HONESTLY looking at what A-net themselves have said, Fractals are the most succesful of the PvE end-game. So outside of living world maps/expansion maps stop developing everything else and focus there, close down those waste of space modes and roll their rewards into those two modes. Cull the player-base of the ones you dont want or care about, and just do more of the same because honestly NONE but Open world PvE have the participation to warrant existence. Even fractals likely don't have enough to really warrant development, how long has it been since we got a new one? We get one this month. How long until the next one?

    It was PvP focused, Go back and look at HoT and look at Core and how they marketed it. WvW and PvP even had their own trailers and they were talked about once they knew what they wanted to do; The combat engine was designed for it. Your opinion is wrong and willfully ignorant and Ill call you on it, Dodge rolling and the like of what we have combat wise is not needed for PvE once so ever and honestly offer WAAAY too many balancing problems for them to have willfully made the game this way. The game changed directions because of their inability and lack of drive to balance the game; E-sports is pretty dang boring when its two teams of the same class/classes duking it out because its literally more of a western stand-off than it is a sporting event.

    E-sports require variation and diversity in builds, characters and skill-sets and this game? Never has and likely never will offer or demand that. Think what you will, but I suggest we walk away from communication with one another. Im not about to conceded to your ludicrous point and you refuse to acknowledge or understand mine, there is a communication barrier and we can't co-exist because frankly Im unable to not come at you over an opinion based on a lie. So respectfully do not reply, let it go and I shall do the same and we will part with this. Or we can continue to do this for the next two weeks and argue; Im leaving that choice entirely up to you but Im not going to be as forthcoming or tolerant going forward.

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 3, 2020

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Rukia.4802 said:
    1 recognized (?) pvp mode

    Let's count how much pvp content GW1 got.. with a much smaller budget and team.

    Yep, because GW 1 was designed as a PvP game. Guild Wars 2 wasn't. : Even in Guild Wars 1 developed as time progressed, the updates were more and more PvE. And didn't expect PvE to be as popular as it was, but it was undeniably what ended up driving the game. The evidence is that Anet made Guild Wars 2 about PvE predominantly. You can tell by the number of updates PvE gets by comparison.

    Anet said, before Guild Wars 2 launched that they intentionally didn't talk about PVP for the first year after the announcement to try to break people out of the idea this was a PvP based game. They said this at shows and on panels. The focus of this game was always been PvE from day one. That's why it talked on the official website about the game being a living breathing world. That's why they focused on dynamic events.

    Thats why their steam page DIRECTLY talks about competitive play and that its a competitive game?
    https://gyazo.com/7c04627da02a77ffc38f65d04853cae2

    Sure they mention it. Just like a hotel that has tennis courts might mention them in an ad, but it doesn't make it a tennis hotel. There are four paragrpahs there, and one of them talks about competitive play which obviously from the wording covers both PvP and WvW. They're lumped in together in one paragraph. They don't even get their own seperate paragraph. Looks to me that one of the paragraphis there is about story, one is about dynamic events, one is about combat in general and one paragraph is shared between two completely different types of PvP.

    I don't know a lot of people who would argue at this point that this game is centered on PvP. Just look at the game updates Anet absolutely said what I said they said. That they didn't talk about PvP for the first year to make it clear this wasn't a PvP centric game. Because they had trouble getting people into GW 1 later on because everyone assumed it was a PvP centric game. They've never had the bulk of their devs working on PvP. And I don't know any PvPers who think they have.

    You can believe anything you want, but the evidence doesn't really support what you're implying here.

    Actually it does, you don't need a combat engine or system like they have for PvE. Simple. Dodging was made popular by guild wars 2, sure tera online and a few others tried it but not to the extent this game has. It only shines in Competitive play; Its nice in PvE but most time its stack and spank unless in raids and even then most of the time its stack and spank. The combat engine was built for PvP, E-sports was their plan in HoT and failed due to balance, WvW was their end-game mode with dungeons and fractals as well new maps being the only thing PvE had.

    Ontop of that WvW DIRECTLY effected PvE and vice versa before the mega-servers. The game was built with PvP in mind and a bunch of PvE players began whining because it was the end-game, which was back when everyone claimed it had no end-game. Now end-game PvE exists and its more niche than WvW and it still gets more content Cadence (not saying alot here). Im sorry but the evidence points to end-game anything outside of PvE maps not being the focus, be it fractals, PvP, WvW, Raiding or what have you. The game is made to sell you new maps and mastery's and it has been this way since mid way through S3 of the living world~ And from the looks of it I'd say they are turning course back around to where ALL modes are taken better care of.

    You, as a PvE fiend who sit here and diminish the importance of competitive modes don't understand that there is a big market for PvP in mmo's. And when we go to steam there will be a pretty big fire being burnt because a lot of those people want competition. Just because you don't care/like/want or acknowledge the mode as anything more than a waste of time (guessing based on how you dismiss it) Doesn't mean everyone else does. I personally see raids and strikes, as well fractals as a waste of time as they offer no power increase for the BS that exist within those game modes. And the shenanigans and rude people who exist within them; Id rather those resources be put the work elsewhere but surprise, surprise... new fractal in sep. And fractals aren't even a focus in the game~ And haven't been for a long time.

    This game as never focused on PvP. For years and years and y ears, people in the PvP and WvW community have complained about lack of updates compared to PvE. You can try to spin this any way you like but it's just not the case. From launch, count the updates that affected each, it really is that simple.

    You may have a different opinion but the raised voices of the WvW and PvP community tell a completely different story. So does the raid community for that matter.

    Raids have been abandoned and you'll likely be hard pressed to see another one. PvE end-game is not successful here so HONESTLY looking at what A-net themselves have said, Fractals are the most succesful of the PvE end-game. So outside of living world maps/expansion maps stop developing everything else and focus there, close down those waste of space modes and roll their rewards into those two modes. Cull the player-base of the ones you dont want or care about, and just do more of the same because honestly NONE but Open world PvE have the participation to warrant existence. Even fractals likely don't have enough to really warrant development, how long has it been since we got a new one? We get one this month. How long until the next one?

    It was PvP focused, Go back and look at HoT and look at Core and how they marketed it. WvW and PvP even had their own trailers and they were talked about once they knew what they wanted to do; The combat engine was designed for it. Your opinion is wrong and willfully ignorant and Ill call you on it, Dodge rolling and the like of what we have combat wise is not needed for PvE once so ever and honestly offer WAAAY too many balancing problems for them to have willfully made the game this way. The game changed directions because of their inability and lack of drive to balance the game; E-sports is pretty dang boring when its two teams of the same class/classes duking it out because its literally more of a western stand-off than it is a sporting event.

    E-sports require variation and diversity in builds, characters and skill-sets and this game? Never has and likely never will offer or demand that. Think what you will, but I suggest we walk away from communication with one another. Im not about to conceded to your ludicrous point and you refuse to acknowledge or understand mine, there is a communication barrier and we can't co-exist because frankly Im unable to not come at you over an opinion based on a lie. So respectfully do not reply, let it go and I shall do the same and we will part with this. Or we can continue to do this for the next two weeks and argue; Im leaving that choice entirely up to you but Im not going to be as forthcoming or tolerant going forward.

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Rukia.4802 said:
    1 recognized (?) pvp mode

    Let's count how much pvp content GW1 got.. with a much smaller budget and team.

    Yep, because GW 1 was designed as a PvP game. Guild Wars 2 wasn't. : Even in Guild Wars 1 developed as time progressed, the updates were more and more PvE. And didn't expect PvE to be as popular as it was, but it was undeniably what ended up driving the game. The evidence is that Anet made Guild Wars 2 about PvE predominantly. You can tell by the number of updates PvE gets by comparison.

    Anet said, before Guild Wars 2 launched that they intentionally didn't talk about PVP for the first year after the announcement to try to break people out of the idea this was a PvP based game. They said this at shows and on panels. The focus of this game was always been PvE from day one. That's why it talked on the official website about the game being a living breathing world. That's why they focused on dynamic events.

    Thats why their steam page DIRECTLY talks about competitive play and that its a competitive game?
    https://gyazo.com/7c04627da02a77ffc38f65d04853cae2

    Sure they mention it. Just like a hotel that has tennis courts might mention them in an ad, but it doesn't make it a tennis hotel. There are four paragrpahs there, and one of them talks about competitive play which obviously from the wording covers both PvP and WvW. They're lumped in together in one paragraph. They don't even get their own seperate paragraph. Looks to me that one of the paragraphis there is about story, one is about dynamic events, one is about combat in general and one paragraph is shared between two completely different types of PvP.

    I don't know a lot of people who would argue at this point that this game is centered on PvP. Just look at the game updates Anet absolutely said what I said they said. That they didn't talk about PvP for the first year to make it clear this wasn't a PvP centric game. Because they had trouble getting people into GW 1 later on because everyone assumed it was a PvP centric game. They've never had the bulk of their devs working on PvP. And I don't know any PvPers who think they have.

    You can believe anything you want, but the evidence doesn't really support what you're implying here.

    Actually it does, you don't need a combat engine or system like they have for PvE. Simple. Dodging was made popular by guild wars 2, sure tera online and a few others tried it but not to the extent this game has. It only shines in Competitive play; Its nice in PvE but most time its stack and spank unless in raids and even then most of the time its stack and spank. The combat engine was built for PvP, E-sports was their plan in HoT and failed due to balance, WvW was their end-game mode with dungeons and fractals as well new maps being the only thing PvE had.

    Ontop of that WvW DIRECTLY effected PvE and vice versa before the mega-servers. The game was built with PvP in mind and a bunch of PvE players began whining because it was the end-game, which was back when everyone claimed it had no end-game. Now end-game PvE exists and its more niche than WvW and it still gets more content Cadence (not saying alot here). Im sorry but the evidence points to end-game anything outside of PvE maps not being the focus, be it fractals, PvP, WvW, Raiding or what have you. The game is made to sell you new maps and mastery's and it has been this way since mid way through S3 of the living world~ And from the looks of it I'd say they are turning course back around to where ALL modes are taken better care of.

    You, as a PvE fiend who sit here and diminish the importance of competitive modes don't understand that there is a big market for PvP in mmo's. And when we go to steam there will be a pretty big fire being burnt because a lot of those people want competition. Just because you don't care/like/want or acknowledge the mode as anything more than a waste of time (guessing based on how you dismiss it) Doesn't mean everyone else does. I personally see raids and strikes, as well fractals as a waste of time as they offer no power increase for the BS that exist within those game modes. And the shenanigans and rude people who exist within them; Id rather those resources be put the work elsewhere but surprise, surprise... new fractal in sep. And fractals aren't even a focus in the game~ And haven't been for a long time.

    This game as never focused on PvP. For years and years and y ears, people in the PvP and WvW community have complained about lack of updates compared to PvE. You can try to spin this any way you like but it's just not the case. From launch, count the updates that affected each, it really is that simple.

    You may have a different opinion but the raised voices of the WvW and PvP community tell a completely different story. So does the raid community for that matter.

    Raids have been abandoned and you'll likely be hard pressed to see another one. PvE end-game is not successful here so HONESTLY looking at what A-net themselves have said, Fractals are the most succesful of the PvE end-game. So outside of living world maps/expansion maps stop developing everything else and focus there, close down those waste of space modes and roll their rewards into those two modes. Cull the player-base of the ones you dont want or care about, and just do more of the same because honestly NONE but Open world PvE have the participation to warrant existence. Even fractals likely don't have enough to really warrant development, how long has it been since we got a new one? We get one this month. How long until the next one?

    It was PvP focused, Go back and look at HoT and look at Core and how they marketed it. WvW and PvP even had their own trailers and they were talked about once they knew what they wanted to do; The combat engine was designed for it. Your opinion is wrong and willfully ignorant and Ill call you on it, Dodge rolling and the like of what we have combat wise is not needed for PvE once so ever and honestly offer WAAAY too many balancing problems for them to have willfully made the game this way. The game changed directions because of their inability and lack of drive to balance the game; E-sports is pretty dang boring when its two teams of the same class/classes duking it out because its literally more of a western stand-off than it is a sporting event.

    E-sports require variation and diversity in builds, characters and skill-sets and this game? Never has and likely never will offer or demand that. Think what you will, but I suggest we walk away from communication with one another. Im not about to conceded to your ludicrous point and you refuse to acknowledge or understand mine, there is a communication barrier and we can't co-exist because frankly Im unable to not come at you over an opinion based on a lie. So respectfully do not reply, let it go and I shall do the same and we will part with this. Or we can continue to do this for the next two weeks and argue; Im leaving that choice entirely up to you but Im not going to be as forthcoming or tolerant going forward.

    You've said it yourself. For many many years now, the main focus of development has been story, meta events, dynamic events, and the occasional fractal. That's pretty much it. But back in the days of Season 1 of the Living World. PvE was getting content every two weeks and all I heard, even back then, were PvPers who felt abandoned by the company. You can write as many paragraphs as you like but the PvE focus has been here since Season 1, when PvE was getting the vast majority of updates.

    Edit: Traditional end game definitions NEVER applied to this game. The game didn't launch with raids. The devs themselves said they considered the three Orr zones end game. Dungeons too were obviously end game, but it wasn't what the devs were talking about, when they talked about the game, at least not by percentage of time. In HoT, zone metas were considered end game and still probably are for most people. Raids and Fractals are the instanced end game, but this game has been focused more on the open world.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Rukia.4802 said:
    1 recognized (?) pvp mode

    Let's count how much pvp content GW1 got.. with a much smaller budget and team.

    Yep, because GW 1 was designed as a PvP game. Guild Wars 2 wasn't. : Even in Guild Wars 1 developed as time progressed, the updates were more and more PvE. And didn't expect PvE to be as popular as it was, but it was undeniably what ended up driving the game. The evidence is that Anet made Guild Wars 2 about PvE predominantly. You can tell by the number of updates PvE gets by comparison.

    Anet said, before Guild Wars 2 launched that they intentionally didn't talk about PVP for the first year after the announcement to try to break people out of the idea this was a PvP based game. They said this at shows and on panels. The focus of this game was always been PvE from day one. That's why it talked on the official website about the game being a living breathing world. That's why they focused on dynamic events.

    Thats why their steam page DIRECTLY talks about competitive play and that its a competitive game?
    https://gyazo.com/7c04627da02a77ffc38f65d04853cae2

    Sure they mention it. Just like a hotel that has tennis courts might mention them in an ad, but it doesn't make it a tennis hotel. There are four paragrpahs there, and one of them talks about competitive play which obviously from the wording covers both PvP and WvW. They're lumped in together in one paragraph. They don't even get their own seperate paragraph. Looks to me that one of the paragraphis there is about story, one is about dynamic events, one is about combat in general and one paragraph is shared between two completely different types of PvP.

    I don't know a lot of people who would argue at this point that this game is centered on PvP. Just look at the game updates Anet absolutely said what I said they said. That they didn't talk about PvP for the first year to make it clear this wasn't a PvP centric game. Because they had trouble getting people into GW 1 later on because everyone assumed it was a PvP centric game. They've never had the bulk of their devs working on PvP. And I don't know any PvPers who think they have.

    You can believe anything you want, but the evidence doesn't really support what you're implying here.

    Actually it does, you don't need a combat engine or system like they have for PvE. Simple. Dodging was made popular by guild wars 2, sure tera online and a few others tried it but not to the extent this game has. It only shines in Competitive play; Its nice in PvE but most time its stack and spank unless in raids and even then most of the time its stack and spank. The combat engine was built for PvP, E-sports was their plan in HoT and failed due to balance, WvW was their end-game mode with dungeons and fractals as well new maps being the only thing PvE had.

    Ontop of that WvW DIRECTLY effected PvE and vice versa before the mega-servers. The game was built with PvP in mind and a bunch of PvE players began whining because it was the end-game, which was back when everyone claimed it had no end-game. Now end-game PvE exists and its more niche than WvW and it still gets more content Cadence (not saying alot here). Im sorry but the evidence points to end-game anything outside of PvE maps not being the focus, be it fractals, PvP, WvW, Raiding or what have you. The game is made to sell you new maps and mastery's and it has been this way since mid way through S3 of the living world~ And from the looks of it I'd say they are turning course back around to where ALL modes are taken better care of.

    You, as a PvE fiend who sit here and diminish the importance of competitive modes don't understand that there is a big market for PvP in mmo's. And when we go to steam there will be a pretty big fire being burnt because a lot of those people want competition. Just because you don't care/like/want or acknowledge the mode as anything more than a waste of time (guessing based on how you dismiss it) Doesn't mean everyone else does. I personally see raids and strikes, as well fractals as a waste of time as they offer no power increase for the BS that exist within those game modes. And the shenanigans and rude people who exist within them; Id rather those resources be put the work elsewhere but surprise, surprise... new fractal in sep. And fractals aren't even a focus in the game~ And haven't been for a long time.

    This game as never focused on PvP. For years and years and y ears, people in the PvP and WvW community have complained about lack of updates compared to PvE. You can try to spin this any way you like but it's just not the case. From launch, count the updates that affected each, it really is that simple.

    You may have a different opinion but the raised voices of the WvW and PvP community tell a completely different story. So does the raid community for that matter.

    Raids have been abandoned and you'll likely be hard pressed to see another one. PvE end-game is not successful here so HONESTLY looking at what A-net themselves have said, Fractals are the most succesful of the PvE end-game. So outside of living world maps/expansion maps stop developing everything else and focus there, close down those waste of space modes and roll their rewards into those two modes. Cull the player-base of the ones you dont want or care about, and just do more of the same because honestly NONE but Open world PvE have the participation to warrant existence. Even fractals likely don't have enough to really warrant development, how long has it been since we got a new one? We get one this month. How long until the next one?

    It was PvP focused, Go back and look at HoT and look at Core and how they marketed it. WvW and PvP even had their own trailers and they were talked about once they knew what they wanted to do; The combat engine was designed for it. Your opinion is wrong and willfully ignorant and Ill call you on it, Dodge rolling and the like of what we have combat wise is not needed for PvE once so ever and honestly offer WAAAY too many balancing problems for them to have willfully made the game this way. The game changed directions because of their inability and lack of drive to balance the game; E-sports is pretty dang boring when its two teams of the same class/classes duking it out because its literally more of a western stand-off than it is a sporting event.

    E-sports require variation and diversity in builds, characters and skill-sets and this game? Never has and likely never will offer or demand that. Think what you will, but I suggest we walk away from communication with one another. Im not about to conceded to your ludicrous point and you refuse to acknowledge or understand mine, there is a communication barrier and we can't co-exist because frankly Im unable to not come at you over an opinion based on a lie. So respectfully do not reply, let it go and I shall do the same and we will part with this. Or we can continue to do this for the next two weeks and argue; Im leaving that choice entirely up to you but Im not going to be as forthcoming or tolerant going forward.

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Rukia.4802 said:
    1 recognized (?) pvp mode

    Let's count how much pvp content GW1 got.. with a much smaller budget and team.

    Yep, because GW 1 was designed as a PvP game. Guild Wars 2 wasn't. : Even in Guild Wars 1 developed as time progressed, the updates were more and more PvE. And didn't expect PvE to be as popular as it was, but it was undeniably what ended up driving the game. The evidence is that Anet made Guild Wars 2 about PvE predominantly. You can tell by the number of updates PvE gets by comparison.

    Anet said, before Guild Wars 2 launched that they intentionally didn't talk about PVP for the first year after the announcement to try to break people out of the idea this was a PvP based game. They said this at shows and on panels. The focus of this game was always been PvE from day one. That's why it talked on the official website about the game being a living breathing world. That's why they focused on dynamic events.

    Thats why their steam page DIRECTLY talks about competitive play and that its a competitive game?
    https://gyazo.com/7c04627da02a77ffc38f65d04853cae2

    Sure they mention it. Just like a hotel that has tennis courts might mention them in an ad, but it doesn't make it a tennis hotel. There are four paragrpahs there, and one of them talks about competitive play which obviously from the wording covers both PvP and WvW. They're lumped in together in one paragraph. They don't even get their own seperate paragraph. Looks to me that one of the paragraphis there is about story, one is about dynamic events, one is about combat in general and one paragraph is shared between two completely different types of PvP.

    I don't know a lot of people who would argue at this point that this game is centered on PvP. Just look at the game updates Anet absolutely said what I said they said. That they didn't talk about PvP for the first year to make it clear this wasn't a PvP centric game. Because they had trouble getting people into GW 1 later on because everyone assumed it was a PvP centric game. They've never had the bulk of their devs working on PvP. And I don't know any PvPers who think they have.

    You can believe anything you want, but the evidence doesn't really support what you're implying here.

    Actually it does, you don't need a combat engine or system like they have for PvE. Simple. Dodging was made popular by guild wars 2, sure tera online and a few others tried it but not to the extent this game has. It only shines in Competitive play; Its nice in PvE but most time its stack and spank unless in raids and even then most of the time its stack and spank. The combat engine was built for PvP, E-sports was their plan in HoT and failed due to balance, WvW was their end-game mode with dungeons and fractals as well new maps being the only thing PvE had.

    Ontop of that WvW DIRECTLY effected PvE and vice versa before the mega-servers. The game was built with PvP in mind and a bunch of PvE players began whining because it was the end-game, which was back when everyone claimed it had no end-game. Now end-game PvE exists and its more niche than WvW and it still gets more content Cadence (not saying alot here). Im sorry but the evidence points to end-game anything outside of PvE maps not being the focus, be it fractals, PvP, WvW, Raiding or what have you. The game is made to sell you new maps and mastery's and it has been this way since mid way through S3 of the living world~ And from the looks of it I'd say they are turning course back around to where ALL modes are taken better care of.

    You, as a PvE fiend who sit here and diminish the importance of competitive modes don't understand that there is a big market for PvP in mmo's. And when we go to steam there will be a pretty big fire being burnt because a lot of those people want competition. Just because you don't care/like/want or acknowledge the mode as anything more than a waste of time (guessing based on how you dismiss it) Doesn't mean everyone else does. I personally see raids and strikes, as well fractals as a waste of time as they offer no power increase for the BS that exist within those game modes. And the shenanigans and rude people who exist within them; Id rather those resources be put the work elsewhere but surprise, surprise... new fractal in sep. And fractals aren't even a focus in the game~ And haven't been for a long time.

    This game as never focused on PvP. For years and years and y ears, people in the PvP and WvW community have complained about lack of updates compared to PvE. You can try to spin this any way you like but it's just not the case. From launch, count the updates that affected each, it really is that simple.

    You may have a different opinion but the raised voices of the WvW and PvP community tell a completely different story. So does the raid community for that matter.

    Raids have been abandoned and you'll likely be hard pressed to see another one. PvE end-game is not successful here so HONESTLY looking at what A-net themselves have said, Fractals are the most succesful of the PvE end-game. So outside of living world maps/expansion maps stop developing everything else and focus there, close down those waste of space modes and roll their rewards into those two modes. Cull the player-base of the ones you dont want or care about, and just do more of the same because honestly NONE but Open world PvE have the participation to warrant existence. Even fractals likely don't have enough to really warrant development, how long has it been since we got a new one? We get one this month. How long until the next one?

    It was PvP focused, Go back and look at HoT and look at Core and how they marketed it. WvW and PvP even had their own trailers and they were talked about once they knew what they wanted to do; The combat engine was designed for it. Your opinion is wrong and willfully ignorant and Ill call you on it, Dodge rolling and the like of what we have combat wise is not needed for PvE once so ever and honestly offer WAAAY too many balancing problems for them to have willfully made the game this way. The game changed directions because of their inability and lack of drive to balance the game; E-sports is pretty dang boring when its two teams of the same class/classes duking it out because its literally more of a western stand-off than it is a sporting event.

    E-sports require variation and diversity in builds, characters and skill-sets and this game? Never has and likely never will offer or demand that. Think what you will, but I suggest we walk away from communication with one another. Im not about to conceded to your ludicrous point and you refuse to acknowledge or understand mine, there is a communication barrier and we can't co-exist because frankly Im unable to not come at you over an opinion based on a lie. So respectfully do not reply, let it go and I shall do the same and we will part with this. Or we can continue to do this for the next two weeks and argue; Im leaving that choice entirely up to you but Im not going to be as forthcoming or tolerant going forward.

    You've said it yourself. For many many years now, the main focus of development has been story, meta events, dynamic events, and the occasional fractal. That's pretty much it. But back in the days of Season 1 of the Living World. PvE was getting content every two weeks and all I heard, even back then, were PvPers who felt abandoned by the company. You can write as many paragraphs as you like but the PvE focus has been here since Season 1, when PvE was getting the vast majority of updates.

    Edit: Traditional end game definitions NEVER applied to this game. The game didn't launch with raids. The devs themselves said they considered the three Orr zones end game. Dungeons too were obviously end game, but it wasn't what the devs were talking about, when they talked about the game, at least not by percentage of time. In HoT, zone metas were considered end game and still probably are for most people. Raids and Fractals are the instanced end game, but this game has been focused more on the open world.

    Which simply is why its doomed to not live as long as the competition. If End of dragons doesn't do well I wont be surprised if NCsoft pulls the plug, they've done so to games more successful for less.

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Rukia.4802 said:
    1 recognized (?) pvp mode

    Let's count how much pvp content GW1 got.. with a much smaller budget and team.

    Yep, because GW 1 was designed as a PvP game. Guild Wars 2 wasn't. : Even in Guild Wars 1 developed as time progressed, the updates were more and more PvE. And didn't expect PvE to be as popular as it was, but it was undeniably what ended up driving the game. The evidence is that Anet made Guild Wars 2 about PvE predominantly. You can tell by the number of updates PvE gets by comparison.

    Anet said, before Guild Wars 2 launched that they intentionally didn't talk about PVP for the first year after the announcement to try to break people out of the idea this was a PvP based game. They said this at shows and on panels. The focus of this game was always been PvE from day one. That's why it talked on the official website about the game being a living breathing world. That's why they focused on dynamic events.

    Thats why their steam page DIRECTLY talks about competitive play and that its a competitive game?
    https://gyazo.com/7c04627da02a77ffc38f65d04853cae2

    Sure they mention it. Just like a hotel that has tennis courts might mention them in an ad, but it doesn't make it a tennis hotel. There are four paragrpahs there, and one of them talks about competitive play which obviously from the wording covers both PvP and WvW. They're lumped in together in one paragraph. They don't even get their own seperate paragraph. Looks to me that one of the paragraphis there is about story, one is about dynamic events, one is about combat in general and one paragraph is shared between two completely different types of PvP.

    I don't know a lot of people who would argue at this point that this game is centered on PvP. Just look at the game updates Anet absolutely said what I said they said. That they didn't talk about PvP for the first year to make it clear this wasn't a PvP centric game. Because they had trouble getting people into GW 1 later on because everyone assumed it was a PvP centric game. They've never had the bulk of their devs working on PvP. And I don't know any PvPers who think they have.

    You can believe anything you want, but the evidence doesn't really support what you're implying here.

    Actually it does, you don't need a combat engine or system like they have for PvE. Simple. Dodging was made popular by guild wars 2, sure tera online and a few others tried it but not to the extent this game has. It only shines in Competitive play; Its nice in PvE but most time its stack and spank unless in raids and even then most of the time its stack and spank. The combat engine was built for PvP, E-sports was their plan in HoT and failed due to balance, WvW was their end-game mode with dungeons and fractals as well new maps being the only thing PvE had.

    Ontop of that WvW DIRECTLY effected PvE and vice versa before the mega-servers. The game was built with PvP in mind and a bunch of PvE players began whining because it was the end-game, which was back when everyone claimed it had no end-game. Now end-game PvE exists and its more niche than WvW and it still gets more content Cadence (not saying alot here). Im sorry but the evidence points to end-game anything outside of PvE maps not being the focus, be it fractals, PvP, WvW, Raiding or what have you. The game is made to sell you new maps and mastery's and it has been this way since mid way through S3 of the living world~ And from the looks of it I'd say they are turning course back around to where ALL modes are taken better care of.

    You, as a PvE fiend who sit here and diminish the importance of competitive modes don't understand that there is a big market for PvP in mmo's. And when we go to steam there will be a pretty big fire being burnt because a lot of those people want competition. Just because you don't care/like/want or acknowledge the mode as anything more than a waste of time (guessing based on how you dismiss it) Doesn't mean everyone else does. I personally see raids and strikes, as well fractals as a waste of time as they offer no power increase for the BS that exist within those game modes. And the shenanigans and rude people who exist within them; Id rather those resources be put the work elsewhere but surprise, surprise... new fractal in sep. And fractals aren't even a focus in the game~ And haven't been for a long time.

    This game as never focused on PvP. For years and years and y ears, people in the PvP and WvW community have complained about lack of updates compared to PvE. You can try to spin this any way you like but it's just not the case. From launch, count the updates that affected each, it really is that simple.

    You may have a different opinion but the raised voices of the WvW and PvP community tell a completely different story. So does the raid community for that matter.

    Raids have been abandoned and you'll likely be hard pressed to see another one. PvE end-game is not successful here so HONESTLY looking at what A-net themselves have said, Fractals are the most succesful of the PvE end-game. So outside of living world maps/expansion maps stop developing everything else and focus there, close down those waste of space modes and roll their rewards into those two modes. Cull the player-base of the ones you dont want or care about, and just do more of the same because honestly NONE but Open world PvE have the participation to warrant existence. Even fractals likely don't have enough to really warrant development, how long has it been since we got a new one? We get one this month. How long until the next one?

    It was PvP focused, Go back and look at HoT and look at Core and how they marketed it. WvW and PvP even had their own trailers and they were talked about once they knew what they wanted to do; The combat engine was designed for it. Your opinion is wrong and willfully ignorant and Ill call you on it, Dodge rolling and the like of what we have combat wise is not needed for PvE once so ever and honestly offer WAAAY too many balancing problems for them to have willfully made the game this way. The game changed directions because of their inability and lack of drive to balance the game; E-sports is pretty dang boring when its two teams of the same class/classes duking it out because its literally more of a western stand-off than it is a sporting event.

    E-sports require variation and diversity in builds, characters and skill-sets and this game? Never has and likely never will offer or demand that. Think what you will, but I suggest we walk away from communication with one another. Im not about to conceded to your ludicrous point and you refuse to acknowledge or understand mine, there is a communication barrier and we can't co-exist because frankly Im unable to not come at you over an opinion based on a lie. So respectfully do not reply, let it go and I shall do the same and we will part with this. Or we can continue to do this for the next two weeks and argue; Im leaving that choice entirely up to you but Im not going to be as forthcoming or tolerant going forward.

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Rukia.4802 said:
    1 recognized (?) pvp mode

    Let's count how much pvp content GW1 got.. with a much smaller budget and team.

    Yep, because GW 1 was designed as a PvP game. Guild Wars 2 wasn't. : Even in Guild Wars 1 developed as time progressed, the updates were more and more PvE. And didn't expect PvE to be as popular as it was, but it was undeniably what ended up driving the game. The evidence is that Anet made Guild Wars 2 about PvE predominantly. You can tell by the number of updates PvE gets by comparison.

    Anet said, before Guild Wars 2 launched that they intentionally didn't talk about PVP for the first year after the announcement to try to break people out of the idea this was a PvP based game. They said this at shows and on panels. The focus of this game was always been PvE from day one. That's why it talked on the official website about the game being a living breathing world. That's why they focused on dynamic events.

    Thats why their steam page DIRECTLY talks about competitive play and that its a competitive game?
    https://gyazo.com/7c04627da02a77ffc38f65d04853cae2

    Sure they mention it. Just like a hotel that has tennis courts might mention them in an ad, but it doesn't make it a tennis hotel. There are four paragrpahs there, and one of them talks about competitive play which obviously from the wording covers both PvP and WvW. They're lumped in together in one paragraph. They don't even get their own seperate paragraph. Looks to me that one of the paragraphis there is about story, one is about dynamic events, one is about combat in general and one paragraph is shared between two completely different types of PvP.

    I don't know a lot of people who would argue at this point that this game is centered on PvP. Just look at the game updates Anet absolutely said what I said they said. That they didn't talk about PvP for the first year to make it clear this wasn't a PvP centric game. Because they had trouble getting people into GW 1 later on because everyone assumed it was a PvP centric game. They've never had the bulk of their devs working on PvP. And I don't know any PvPers who think they have.

    You can believe anything you want, but the evidence doesn't really support what you're implying here.

    Actually it does, you don't need a combat engine or system like they have for PvE. Simple. Dodging was made popular by guild wars 2, sure tera online and a few others tried it but not to the extent this game has. It only shines in Competitive play; Its nice in PvE but most time its stack and spank unless in raids and even then most of the time its stack and spank. The combat engine was built for PvP, E-sports was their plan in HoT and failed due to balance, WvW was their end-game mode with dungeons and fractals as well new maps being the only thing PvE had.

    Ontop of that WvW DIRECTLY effected PvE and vice versa before the mega-servers. The game was built with PvP in mind and a bunch of PvE players began whining because it was the end-game, which was back when everyone claimed it had no end-game. Now end-game PvE exists and its more niche than WvW and it still gets more content Cadence (not saying alot here). Im sorry but the evidence points to end-game anything outside of PvE maps not being the focus, be it fractals, PvP, WvW, Raiding or what have you. The game is made to sell you new maps and mastery's and it has been this way since mid way through S3 of the living world~ And from the looks of it I'd say they are turning course back around to where ALL modes are taken better care of.

    You, as a PvE fiend who sit here and diminish the importance of competitive modes don't understand that there is a big market for PvP in mmo's. And when we go to steam there will be a pretty big fire being burnt because a lot of those people want competition. Just because you don't care/like/want or acknowledge the mode as anything more than a waste of time (guessing based on how you dismiss it) Doesn't mean everyone else does. I personally see raids and strikes, as well fractals as a waste of time as they offer no power increase for the BS that exist within those game modes. And the shenanigans and rude people who exist within them; Id rather those resources be put the work elsewhere but surprise, surprise... new fractal in sep. And fractals aren't even a focus in the game~ And haven't been for a long time.

    This game as never focused on PvP. For years and years and y ears, people in the PvP and WvW community have complained about lack of updates compared to PvE. You can try to spin this any way you like but it's just not the case. From launch, count the updates that affected each, it really is that simple.

    You may have a different opinion but the raised voices of the WvW and PvP community tell a completely different story. So does the raid community for that matter.

    Raids have been abandoned and you'll likely be hard pressed to see another one. PvE end-game is not successful here so HONESTLY looking at what A-net themselves have said, Fractals are the most succesful of the PvE end-game. So outside of living world maps/expansion maps stop developing everything else and focus there, close down those waste of space modes and roll their rewards into those two modes. Cull the player-base of the ones you dont want or care about, and just do more of the same because honestly NONE but Open world PvE have the participation to warrant existence. Even fractals likely don't have enough to really warrant development, how long has it been since we got a new one? We get one this month. How long until the next one?

    It was PvP focused, Go back and look at HoT and look at Core and how they marketed it. WvW and PvP even had their own trailers and they were talked about once they knew what they wanted to do; The combat engine was designed for it. Your opinion is wrong and willfully ignorant and Ill call you on it, Dodge rolling and the like of what we have combat wise is not needed for PvE once so ever and honestly offer WAAAY too many balancing problems for them to have willfully made the game this way. The game changed directions because of their inability and lack of drive to balance the game; E-sports is pretty dang boring when its two teams of the same class/classes duking it out because its literally more of a western stand-off than it is a sporting event.

    E-sports require variation and diversity in builds, characters and skill-sets and this game? Never has and likely never will offer or demand that. Think what you will, but I suggest we walk away from communication with one another. Im not about to conceded to your ludicrous point and you refuse to acknowledge or understand mine, there is a communication barrier and we can't co-exist because frankly Im unable to not come at you over an opinion based on a lie. So respectfully do not reply, let it go and I shall do the same and we will part with this. Or we can continue to do this for the next two weeks and argue; Im leaving that choice entirely up to you but Im not going to be as forthcoming or tolerant going forward.

    You've said it yourself. For many many years now, the main focus of development has been story, meta events, dynamic events, and the occasional fractal. That's pretty much it. But back in the days of Season 1 of the Living World. PvE was getting content every two weeks and all I heard, even back then, were PvPers who felt abandoned by the company. You can write as many paragraphs as you like but the PvE focus has been here since Season 1, when PvE was getting the vast majority of updates.

    Edit: Traditional end game definitions NEVER applied to this game. The game didn't launch with raids. The devs themselves said they considered the three Orr zones end game. Dungeons too were obviously end game, but it wasn't what the devs were talking about, when they talked about the game, at least not by percentage of time. In HoT, zone metas were considered end game and still probably are for most people. Raids and Fractals are the instanced end game, but this game has been focused more on the open world.

    Which simply is why its doomed to not live as long as the competition. If End of dragons doesn't do well I wont be surprised if NCsoft pulls the plug, they've done so to games more successful for less.

    In the 8 years GW2 has been alive it outlived most of its competition ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    Took NCSoft long enough to pull the plug on Wildstar and Aion is still alive with less sales.
    Also they only recently gave Tencent the publishing rights in China.

    You have a heart of gold. Don't let them take it from you.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 3, 2020

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Rukia.4802 said:
    1 recognized (?) pvp mode

    Let's count how much pvp content GW1 got.. with a much smaller budget and team.

    Yep, because GW 1 was designed as a PvP game. Guild Wars 2 wasn't. : Even in Guild Wars 1 developed as time progressed, the updates were more and more PvE. And didn't expect PvE to be as popular as it was, but it was undeniably what ended up driving the game. The evidence is that Anet made Guild Wars 2 about PvE predominantly. You can tell by the number of updates PvE gets by comparison.

    Anet said, before Guild Wars 2 launched that they intentionally didn't talk about PVP for the first year after the announcement to try to break people out of the idea this was a PvP based game. They said this at shows and on panels. The focus of this game was always been PvE from day one. That's why it talked on the official website about the game being a living breathing world. That's why they focused on dynamic events.

    Thats why their steam page DIRECTLY talks about competitive play and that its a competitive game?
    https://gyazo.com/7c04627da02a77ffc38f65d04853cae2

    Sure they mention it. Just like a hotel that has tennis courts might mention them in an ad, but it doesn't make it a tennis hotel. There are four paragrpahs there, and one of them talks about competitive play which obviously from the wording covers both PvP and WvW. They're lumped in together in one paragraph. They don't even get their own seperate paragraph. Looks to me that one of the paragraphis there is about story, one is about dynamic events, one is about combat in general and one paragraph is shared between two completely different types of PvP.

    I don't know a lot of people who would argue at this point that this game is centered on PvP. Just look at the game updates Anet absolutely said what I said they said. That they didn't talk about PvP for the first year to make it clear this wasn't a PvP centric game. Because they had trouble getting people into GW 1 later on because everyone assumed it was a PvP centric game. They've never had the bulk of their devs working on PvP. And I don't know any PvPers who think they have.

    You can believe anything you want, but the evidence doesn't really support what you're implying here.

    Actually it does, you don't need a combat engine or system like they have for PvE. Simple. Dodging was made popular by guild wars 2, sure tera online and a few others tried it but not to the extent this game has. It only shines in Competitive play; Its nice in PvE but most time its stack and spank unless in raids and even then most of the time its stack and spank. The combat engine was built for PvP, E-sports was their plan in HoT and failed due to balance, WvW was their end-game mode with dungeons and fractals as well new maps being the only thing PvE had.

    Ontop of that WvW DIRECTLY effected PvE and vice versa before the mega-servers. The game was built with PvP in mind and a bunch of PvE players began whining because it was the end-game, which was back when everyone claimed it had no end-game. Now end-game PvE exists and its more niche than WvW and it still gets more content Cadence (not saying alot here). Im sorry but the evidence points to end-game anything outside of PvE maps not being the focus, be it fractals, PvP, WvW, Raiding or what have you. The game is made to sell you new maps and mastery's and it has been this way since mid way through S3 of the living world~ And from the looks of it I'd say they are turning course back around to where ALL modes are taken better care of.

    You, as a PvE fiend who sit here and diminish the importance of competitive modes don't understand that there is a big market for PvP in mmo's. And when we go to steam there will be a pretty big fire being burnt because a lot of those people want competition. Just because you don't care/like/want or acknowledge the mode as anything more than a waste of time (guessing based on how you dismiss it) Doesn't mean everyone else does. I personally see raids and strikes, as well fractals as a waste of time as they offer no power increase for the BS that exist within those game modes. And the shenanigans and rude people who exist within them; Id rather those resources be put the work elsewhere but surprise, surprise... new fractal in sep. And fractals aren't even a focus in the game~ And haven't been for a long time.

    This game as never focused on PvP. For years and years and y ears, people in the PvP and WvW community have complained about lack of updates compared to PvE. You can try to spin this any way you like but it's just not the case. From launch, count the updates that affected each, it really is that simple.

    You may have a different opinion but the raised voices of the WvW and PvP community tell a completely different story. So does the raid community for that matter.

    Raids have been abandoned and you'll likely be hard pressed to see another one. PvE end-game is not successful here so HONESTLY looking at what A-net themselves have said, Fractals are the most succesful of the PvE end-game. So outside of living world maps/expansion maps stop developing everything else and focus there, close down those waste of space modes and roll their rewards into those two modes. Cull the player-base of the ones you dont want or care about, and just do more of the same because honestly NONE but Open world PvE have the participation to warrant existence. Even fractals likely don't have enough to really warrant development, how long has it been since we got a new one? We get one this month. How long until the next one?

    It was PvP focused, Go back and look at HoT and look at Core and how they marketed it. WvW and PvP even had their own trailers and they were talked about once they knew what they wanted to do; The combat engine was designed for it. Your opinion is wrong and willfully ignorant and Ill call you on it, Dodge rolling and the like of what we have combat wise is not needed for PvE once so ever and honestly offer WAAAY too many balancing problems for them to have willfully made the game this way. The game changed directions because of their inability and lack of drive to balance the game; E-sports is pretty dang boring when its two teams of the same class/classes duking it out because its literally more of a western stand-off than it is a sporting event.

    E-sports require variation and diversity in builds, characters and skill-sets and this game? Never has and likely never will offer or demand that. Think what you will, but I suggest we walk away from communication with one another. Im not about to conceded to your ludicrous point and you refuse to acknowledge or understand mine, there is a communication barrier and we can't co-exist because frankly Im unable to not come at you over an opinion based on a lie. So respectfully do not reply, let it go and I shall do the same and we will part with this. Or we can continue to do this for the next two weeks and argue; Im leaving that choice entirely up to you but Im not going to be as forthcoming or tolerant going forward.

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Rukia.4802 said:
    1 recognized (?) pvp mode

    Let's count how much pvp content GW1 got.. with a much smaller budget and team.

    Yep, because GW 1 was designed as a PvP game. Guild Wars 2 wasn't. : Even in Guild Wars 1 developed as time progressed, the updates were more and more PvE. And didn't expect PvE to be as popular as it was, but it was undeniably what ended up driving the game. The evidence is that Anet made Guild Wars 2 about PvE predominantly. You can tell by the number of updates PvE gets by comparison.

    Anet said, before Guild Wars 2 launched that they intentionally didn't talk about PVP for the first year after the announcement to try to break people out of the idea this was a PvP based game. They said this at shows and on panels. The focus of this game was always been PvE from day one. That's why it talked on the official website about the game being a living breathing world. That's why they focused on dynamic events.

    Thats why their steam page DIRECTLY talks about competitive play and that its a competitive game?
    https://gyazo.com/7c04627da02a77ffc38f65d04853cae2

    Sure they mention it. Just like a hotel that has tennis courts might mention them in an ad, but it doesn't make it a tennis hotel. There are four paragrpahs there, and one of them talks about competitive play which obviously from the wording covers both PvP and WvW. They're lumped in together in one paragraph. They don't even get their own seperate paragraph. Looks to me that one of the paragraphis there is about story, one is about dynamic events, one is about combat in general and one paragraph is shared between two completely different types of PvP.

    I don't know a lot of people who would argue at this point that this game is centered on PvP. Just look at the game updates Anet absolutely said what I said they said. That they didn't talk about PvP for the first year to make it clear this wasn't a PvP centric game. Because they had trouble getting people into GW 1 later on because everyone assumed it was a PvP centric game. They've never had the bulk of their devs working on PvP. And I don't know any PvPers who think they have.

    You can believe anything you want, but the evidence doesn't really support what you're implying here.

    Actually it does, you don't need a combat engine or system like they have for PvE. Simple. Dodging was made popular by guild wars 2, sure tera online and a few others tried it but not to the extent this game has. It only shines in Competitive play; Its nice in PvE but most time its stack and spank unless in raids and even then most of the time its stack and spank. The combat engine was built for PvP, E-sports was their plan in HoT and failed due to balance, WvW was their end-game mode with dungeons and fractals as well new maps being the only thing PvE had.

    Ontop of that WvW DIRECTLY effected PvE and vice versa before the mega-servers. The game was built with PvP in mind and a bunch of PvE players began whining because it was the end-game, which was back when everyone claimed it had no end-game. Now end-game PvE exists and its more niche than WvW and it still gets more content Cadence (not saying alot here). Im sorry but the evidence points to end-game anything outside of PvE maps not being the focus, be it fractals, PvP, WvW, Raiding or what have you. The game is made to sell you new maps and mastery's and it has been this way since mid way through S3 of the living world~ And from the looks of it I'd say they are turning course back around to where ALL modes are taken better care of.

    You, as a PvE fiend who sit here and diminish the importance of competitive modes don't understand that there is a big market for PvP in mmo's. And when we go to steam there will be a pretty big fire being burnt because a lot of those people want competition. Just because you don't care/like/want or acknowledge the mode as anything more than a waste of time (guessing based on how you dismiss it) Doesn't mean everyone else does. I personally see raids and strikes, as well fractals as a waste of time as they offer no power increase for the BS that exist within those game modes. And the shenanigans and rude people who exist within them; Id rather those resources be put the work elsewhere but surprise, surprise... new fractal in sep. And fractals aren't even a focus in the game~ And haven't been for a long time.

    This game as never focused on PvP. For years and years and y ears, people in the PvP and WvW community have complained about lack of updates compared to PvE. You can try to spin this any way you like but it's just not the case. From launch, count the updates that affected each, it really is that simple.

    You may have a different opinion but the raised voices of the WvW and PvP community tell a completely different story. So does the raid community for that matter.

    Raids have been abandoned and you'll likely be hard pressed to see another one. PvE end-game is not successful here so HONESTLY looking at what A-net themselves have said, Fractals are the most succesful of the PvE end-game. So outside of living world maps/expansion maps stop developing everything else and focus there, close down those waste of space modes and roll their rewards into those two modes. Cull the player-base of the ones you dont want or care about, and just do more of the same because honestly NONE but Open world PvE have the participation to warrant existence. Even fractals likely don't have enough to really warrant development, how long has it been since we got a new one? We get one this month. How long until the next one?

    It was PvP focused, Go back and look at HoT and look at Core and how they marketed it. WvW and PvP even had their own trailers and they were talked about once they knew what they wanted to do; The combat engine was designed for it. Your opinion is wrong and willfully ignorant and Ill call you on it, Dodge rolling and the like of what we have combat wise is not needed for PvE once so ever and honestly offer WAAAY too many balancing problems for them to have willfully made the game this way. The game changed directions because of their inability and lack of drive to balance the game; E-sports is pretty dang boring when its two teams of the same class/classes duking it out because its literally more of a western stand-off than it is a sporting event.

    E-sports require variation and diversity in builds, characters and skill-sets and this game? Never has and likely never will offer or demand that. Think what you will, but I suggest we walk away from communication with one another. Im not about to conceded to your ludicrous point and you refuse to acknowledge or understand mine, there is a communication barrier and we can't co-exist because frankly Im unable to not come at you over an opinion based on a lie. So respectfully do not reply, let it go and I shall do the same and we will part with this. Or we can continue to do this for the next two weeks and argue; Im leaving that choice entirely up to you but Im not going to be as forthcoming or tolerant going forward.

    You've said it yourself. For many many years now, the main focus of development has been story, meta events, dynamic events, and the occasional fractal. That's pretty much it. But back in the days of Season 1 of the Living World. PvE was getting content every two weeks and all I heard, even back then, were PvPers who felt abandoned by the company. You can write as many paragraphs as you like but the PvE focus has been here since Season 1, when PvE was getting the vast majority of updates.

    Edit: Traditional end game definitions NEVER applied to this game. The game didn't launch with raids. The devs themselves said they considered the three Orr zones end game. Dungeons too were obviously end game, but it wasn't what the devs were talking about, when they talked about the game, at least not by percentage of time. In HoT, zone metas were considered end game and still probably are for most people. Raids and Fractals are the instanced end game, but this game has been focused more on the open world.

    Which simply is why its doomed to not live as long as the competition. If End of dragons doesn't do well I wont be surprised if NCsoft pulls the plug, they've done so to games more successful for less.

    Except we aren't talking about whether End of Dragons doing well or not is the end of the game ...we are talking about the PVE focus of GW2. So far ... that's worked for them. Put it this way ... if Anet WAS to change gears and start focusing on the competitive aspects of the game at the expense of PVE ... the game would be FAR shorter lived than if they continued down the current PVE focused path.

    I mean, you are fearmongering; if Anet doesn't accept a more traditional MMO approach the game will be doomed. Except that ignores the inevitable demise of the game in the first place. The question isn't IF it happens, it's when it happens. I'm willing to bet that even in 'maintenance' mode ... GW2 is still way more successful as a PVE focused game than a competitive one. Why? because that focus was why it's successful to begin with.

    If you're on a highway and roadrunner goes "beep beep"
    Just step aside or you might end up in a heap

  • All i know is that this game had (has? maybe..) everything to be a top tier PvP MMO but Anet just didnt care much, and its a shame. I think you guys are right, Anet primary focus IS PvE and thats why im leaving gw2 after the release of any other PvP MMO (Looking forward to play AoC). I wish nothing but good luck for the PvE community that remains, cuz im sure that soon the PvP community will die hard.

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Rukia.4802 said:
    1 recognized (?) pvp mode

    Let's count how much pvp content GW1 got.. with a much smaller budget and team.

    Yep, because GW 1 was designed as a PvP game. Guild Wars 2 wasn't. : Even in Guild Wars 1 developed as time progressed, the updates were more and more PvE. And didn't expect PvE to be as popular as it was, but it was undeniably what ended up driving the game. The evidence is that Anet made Guild Wars 2 about PvE predominantly. You can tell by the number of updates PvE gets by comparison.

    Anet said, before Guild Wars 2 launched that they intentionally didn't talk about PVP for the first year after the announcement to try to break people out of the idea this was a PvP based game. They said this at shows and on panels. The focus of this game was always been PvE from day one. That's why it talked on the official website about the game being a living breathing world. That's why they focused on dynamic events.

    Thats why their steam page DIRECTLY talks about competitive play and that its a competitive game?
    https://gyazo.com/7c04627da02a77ffc38f65d04853cae2

    Sure they mention it. Just like a hotel that has tennis courts might mention them in an ad, but it doesn't make it a tennis hotel. There are four paragrpahs there, and one of them talks about competitive play which obviously from the wording covers both PvP and WvW. They're lumped in together in one paragraph. They don't even get their own seperate paragraph. Looks to me that one of the paragraphis there is about story, one is about dynamic events, one is about combat in general and one paragraph is shared between two completely different types of PvP.

    I don't know a lot of people who would argue at this point that this game is centered on PvP. Just look at the game updates Anet absolutely said what I said they said. That they didn't talk about PvP for the first year to make it clear this wasn't a PvP centric game. Because they had trouble getting people into GW 1 later on because everyone assumed it was a PvP centric game. They've never had the bulk of their devs working on PvP. And I don't know any PvPers who think they have.

    You can believe anything you want, but the evidence doesn't really support what you're implying here.

    Actually it does, you don't need a combat engine or system like they have for PvE. Simple. Dodging was made popular by guild wars 2, sure tera online and a few others tried it but not to the extent this game has. It only shines in Competitive play; Its nice in PvE but most time its stack and spank unless in raids and even then most of the time its stack and spank. The combat engine was built for PvP, E-sports was their plan in HoT and failed due to balance, WvW was their end-game mode with dungeons and fractals as well new maps being the only thing PvE had.

    Ontop of that WvW DIRECTLY effected PvE and vice versa before the mega-servers. The game was built with PvP in mind and a bunch of PvE players began whining because it was the end-game, which was back when everyone claimed it had no end-game. Now end-game PvE exists and its more niche than WvW and it still gets more content Cadence (not saying alot here). Im sorry but the evidence points to end-game anything outside of PvE maps not being the focus, be it fractals, PvP, WvW, Raiding or what have you. The game is made to sell you new maps and mastery's and it has been this way since mid way through S3 of the living world~ And from the looks of it I'd say they are turning course back around to where ALL modes are taken better care of.

    You, as a PvE fiend who sit here and diminish the importance of competitive modes don't understand that there is a big market for PvP in mmo's. And when we go to steam there will be a pretty big fire being burnt because a lot of those people want competition. Just because you don't care/like/want or acknowledge the mode as anything more than a waste of time (guessing based on how you dismiss it) Doesn't mean everyone else does. I personally see raids and strikes, as well fractals as a waste of time as they offer no power increase for the BS that exist within those game modes. And the shenanigans and rude people who exist within them; Id rather those resources be put the work elsewhere but surprise, surprise... new fractal in sep. And fractals aren't even a focus in the game~ And haven't been for a long time.

    This game as never focused on PvP. For years and years and y ears, people in the PvP and WvW community have complained about lack of updates compared to PvE. You can try to spin this any way you like but it's just not the case. From launch, count the updates that affected each, it really is that simple.

    You may have a different opinion but the raised voices of the WvW and PvP community tell a completely different story. So does the raid community for that matter.

    Raids have been abandoned and you'll likely be hard pressed to see another one. PvE end-game is not successful here so HONESTLY looking at what A-net themselves have said, Fractals are the most succesful of the PvE end-game. So outside of living world maps/expansion maps stop developing everything else and focus there, close down those waste of space modes and roll their rewards into those two modes. Cull the player-base of the ones you dont want or care about, and just do more of the same because honestly NONE but Open world PvE have the participation to warrant existence. Even fractals likely don't have enough to really warrant development, how long has it been since we got a new one? We get one this month. How long until the next one?

    It was PvP focused, Go back and look at HoT and look at Core and how they marketed it. WvW and PvP even had their own trailers and they were talked about once they knew what they wanted to do; The combat engine was designed for it. Your opinion is wrong and willfully ignorant and Ill call you on it, Dodge rolling and the like of what we have combat wise is not needed for PvE once so ever and honestly offer WAAAY too many balancing problems for them to have willfully made the game this way. The game changed directions because of their inability and lack of drive to balance the game; E-sports is pretty dang boring when its two teams of the same class/classes duking it out because its literally more of a western stand-off than it is a sporting event.

    E-sports require variation and diversity in builds, characters and skill-sets and this game? Never has and likely never will offer or demand that. Think what you will, but I suggest we walk away from communication with one another. Im not about to conceded to your ludicrous point and you refuse to acknowledge or understand mine, there is a communication barrier and we can't co-exist because frankly Im unable to not come at you over an opinion based on a lie. So respectfully do not reply, let it go and I shall do the same and we will part with this. Or we can continue to do this for the next two weeks and argue; Im leaving that choice entirely up to you but Im not going to be as forthcoming or tolerant going forward.

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Rukia.4802 said:
    1 recognized (?) pvp mode

    Let's count how much pvp content GW1 got.. with a much smaller budget and team.

    Yep, because GW 1 was designed as a PvP game. Guild Wars 2 wasn't. : Even in Guild Wars 1 developed as time progressed, the updates were more and more PvE. And didn't expect PvE to be as popular as it was, but it was undeniably what ended up driving the game. The evidence is that Anet made Guild Wars 2 about PvE predominantly. You can tell by the number of updates PvE gets by comparison.

    Anet said, before Guild Wars 2 launched that they intentionally didn't talk about PVP for the first year after the announcement to try to break people out of the idea this was a PvP based game. They said this at shows and on panels. The focus of this game was always been PvE from day one. That's why it talked on the official website about the game being a living breathing world. That's why they focused on dynamic events.

    Thats why their steam page DIRECTLY talks about competitive play and that its a competitive game?
    https://gyazo.com/7c04627da02a77ffc38f65d04853cae2

    Sure they mention it. Just like a hotel that has tennis courts might mention them in an ad, but it doesn't make it a tennis hotel. There are four paragrpahs there, and one of them talks about competitive play which obviously from the wording covers both PvP and WvW. They're lumped in together in one paragraph. They don't even get their own seperate paragraph. Looks to me that one of the paragraphis there is about story, one is about dynamic events, one is about combat in general and one paragraph is shared between two completely different types of PvP.

    I don't know a lot of people who would argue at this point that this game is centered on PvP. Just look at the game updates Anet absolutely said what I said they said. That they didn't talk about PvP for the first year to make it clear this wasn't a PvP centric game. Because they had trouble getting people into GW 1 later on because everyone assumed it was a PvP centric game. They've never had the bulk of their devs working on PvP. And I don't know any PvPers who think they have.

    You can believe anything you want, but the evidence doesn't really support what you're implying here.

    Actually it does, you don't need a combat engine or system like they have for PvE. Simple. Dodging was made popular by guild wars 2, sure tera online and a few others tried it but not to the extent this game has. It only shines in Competitive play; Its nice in PvE but most time its stack and spank unless in raids and even then most of the time its stack and spank. The combat engine was built for PvP, E-sports was their plan in HoT and failed due to balance, WvW was their end-game mode with dungeons and fractals as well new maps being the only thing PvE had.

    Ontop of that WvW DIRECTLY effected PvE and vice versa before the mega-servers. The game was built with PvP in mind and a bunch of PvE players began whining because it was the end-game, which was back when everyone claimed it had no end-game. Now end-game PvE exists and its more niche than WvW and it still gets more content Cadence (not saying alot here). Im sorry but the evidence points to end-game anything outside of PvE maps not being the focus, be it fractals, PvP, WvW, Raiding or what have you. The game is made to sell you new maps and mastery's and it has been this way since mid way through S3 of the living world~ And from the looks of it I'd say they are turning course back around to where ALL modes are taken better care of.

    You, as a PvE fiend who sit here and diminish the importance of competitive modes don't understand that there is a big market for PvP in mmo's. And when we go to steam there will be a pretty big fire being burnt because a lot of those people want competition. Just because you don't care/like/want or acknowledge the mode as anything more than a waste of time (guessing based on how you dismiss it) Doesn't mean everyone else does. I personally see raids and strikes, as well fractals as a waste of time as they offer no power increase for the BS that exist within those game modes. And the shenanigans and rude people who exist within them; Id rather those resources be put the work elsewhere but surprise, surprise... new fractal in sep. And fractals aren't even a focus in the game~ And haven't been for a long time.

    This game as never focused on PvP. For years and years and y ears, people in the PvP and WvW community have complained about lack of updates compared to PvE. You can try to spin this any way you like but it's just not the case. From launch, count the updates that affected each, it really is that simple.

    You may have a different opinion but the raised voices of the WvW and PvP community tell a completely different story. So does the raid community for that matter.

    Raids have been abandoned and you'll likely be hard pressed to see another one. PvE end-game is not successful here so HONESTLY looking at what A-net themselves have said, Fractals are the most succesful of the PvE end-game. So outside of living world maps/expansion maps stop developing everything else and focus there, close down those waste of space modes and roll their rewards into those two modes. Cull the player-base of the ones you dont want or care about, and just do more of the same because honestly NONE but Open world PvE have the participation to warrant existence. Even fractals likely don't have enough to really warrant development, how long has it been since we got a new one? We get one this month. How long until the next one?

    It was PvP focused, Go back and look at HoT and look at Core and how they marketed it. WvW and PvP even had their own trailers and they were talked about once they knew what they wanted to do; The combat engine was designed for it. Your opinion is wrong and willfully ignorant and Ill call you on it, Dodge rolling and the like of what we have combat wise is not needed for PvE once so ever and honestly offer WAAAY too many balancing problems for them to have willfully made the game this way. The game changed directions because of their inability and lack of drive to balance the game; E-sports is pretty dang boring when its two teams of the same class/classes duking it out because its literally more of a western stand-off than it is a sporting event.

    E-sports require variation and diversity in builds, characters and skill-sets and this game? Never has and likely never will offer or demand that. Think what you will, but I suggest we walk away from communication with one another. Im not about to conceded to your ludicrous point and you refuse to acknowledge or understand mine, there is a communication barrier and we can't co-exist because frankly Im unable to not come at you over an opinion based on a lie. So respectfully do not reply, let it go and I shall do the same and we will part with this. Or we can continue to do this for the next two weeks and argue; Im leaving that choice entirely up to you but Im not going to be as forthcoming or tolerant going forward.

    You've said it yourself. For many many years now, the main focus of development has been story, meta events, dynamic events, and the occasional fractal. That's pretty much it. But back in the days of Season 1 of the Living World. PvE was getting content every two weeks and all I heard, even back then, were PvPers who felt abandoned by the company. You can write as many paragraphs as you like but the PvE focus has been here since Season 1, when PvE was getting the vast majority of updates.

    Edit: Traditional end game definitions NEVER applied to this game. The game didn't launch with raids. The devs themselves said they considered the three Orr zones end game. Dungeons too were obviously end game, but it wasn't what the devs were talking about, when they talked about the game, at least not by percentage of time. In HoT, zone metas were considered end game and still probably are for most people. Raids and Fractals are the instanced end game, but this game has been focused more on the open world.

    Which simply is why its doomed to not live as long as the competition. If End of dragons doesn't do well I wont be surprised if NCsoft pulls the plug, they've done so to games more successful for less.

    Or it found an audience that likes it the way it is and changing it will kill that audience without ever finding the new audience which does everything the way everyone else does. I'm here, specifically because this is different from most MMOs. THis is the reason I play. There are two MMOs that have come out around the same time this one has that are as or more successful and many have come out. Of those two, both are older, bigger names with more games before it and both have console versions. ESO wasn't doing better before it had console versions. At best it was running about even. So you have Final Fantasy XIV the XIVth of it's na;me, that already had a movie made of it, that blew it when it came out and had to completely redo itself.

    At this time Final Fantasy is the only game even close to challenging WoW, but it has the Final Fantasy franchise behind it, it has console versions, it has a longer history of a more popular series. Beyond that this game has been successful it it will likely continue to be, even if it isn't the game you want to play. You're making a definitive statement. That this game would b;e more popular if this just changed it to this. The way you like it. But there are plenty of games that are more focused on raids or PvP and those games havent' done as well as this game. There's a lot more at stake here when you change a product while ignoring the fan base that followed to product to where it was.

    When did this game take it's biggest hit. When HoT came out. When they pissed off their largest and most dedicated audience to add raids and make hard open world and add PvP tournaments. IN the 9 months after HoT, PvP and Raids were the only updates. And after it all changed. Now if that made money, why would they change it? It didn't make money, it LOST money for the company and the company hadn't ever really recovered from it, because they lost part of their biggest player base to cater to a smaller playerbase. How do I know?

    Because Anet came back and took a quarterly update to rein HoT back in. They stopped support raids as much and PvP. They came out with POF which was easier in the open world, with an easier story, with less grindy masteries, with bounties that weren't on timers...essentially it's the anti-HoT. IT's everything that HoT didn't do. The zones aren't as vertical or confusing. The grind is less, you can finish it faster.

    And some hard core players claim HoT was better, but you'd never know due to the support it got from the fan base, because the fan base that plays the game casually might not post on Reddit or the official forums. This game spent 3.5 years filtering out hard core players, tried to get them back with HOT and it didn't work. They didn't gain enough hard core players they just lost a decent percentage of their casuals. The reason why the game is the way it is is because the core playerbase wants what it wants, and people who wan't something else don't understand what they see in it. This game is being made right now for people like me, and adding more PvP won't affect me and adding more raids won't affect me, except to see rewards placed behind those that I'm not likely to get. I'm still a bit bitter about legendary armor, considering I have 29 legendary weapons and 2 legendary trinkets, but I don't want to raid. And now it looks like there might be no more raids. I knew this would happen ages ago and said so. I was hardly the only voice raised against bringing raids into the game. Because the game didn't ramp up to them. You don't just make something because X guy will like it, if it's going to kitten off Y guy who is a loyal fan already. Anet has done that and it's cost them.

  • Shiyo.3578Shiyo.3578 Member ✭✭✭✭

    GW2 is PvP MMO with diablo PvE. Not sure how anyone thinks this is a PvE MMO because it's absolutely not, you mindlessly grind gold to get your legendary gear to show off in WvW and PvP.

    End game is WvW.

  • Guild wars is a pvp game. I mean it says it in the name Guild Wars.... Guilds Vs Guilds People vs People. how much its not called Central Tyria. its called Guild Wars 2

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Yosmo.5306 said:
    Guild wars is a pvp game. I mean it says it in the name Guild Wars.... Guilds Vs Guilds People vs People. how much its not called Central Tyria. its called Guild Wars 2

    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/The_Guild_Wars

    You have a heart of gold. Don't let them take it from you.

  • Seryi.7936Seryi.7936 Member ✭✭
    edited September 4, 2020

    @Yosmo.5306 said:
    Guild wars is a pvp game. I mean it says it in the name Guild Wars.... Guilds Vs Guilds People vs People. how much its not called Central Tyria. its called Guild Wars 2

    GW1 was more of a PvP oriented game, with PvE added later in development. GW2 has always been more of a casual themepark where you choose how you want to play. I agree, I wish there was more of a focus on PvP/WvW, but we have enough issues with queue times already. I won't scoff at more maps for existing modes, though.

  • Edge.8724Edge.8724 Member ✭✭✭

    I'm gonna really lame here but here's this anyway:

    -This game was clearly built with PvE coop in mind and even with its PvP content, PvE is where the majority of players seems to be and so, they chosed to focus that.

    -Please. For everyone. Don't put a "suspense" title in your post's title with the real subject hidden in the said post. Don't. Everyone. Stop.

    I think I'll just stop clicking on post wathever I have a doubt.

    You should be more clear and forward with the title of your post.

  • Widmo.3186Widmo.3186 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 4, 2020

    @Omernon.9762 said:

    @Zawn.9647 said:

    @wevh.2903 said:
    This is ridiculous , lol has one competitive map xdd the point is switching the meta and playstyle

    HAHAHAHA are you serious? what an argument
    LoL is a moba, it has only one map because that's the game. 3 lanes, jungles and 2 bases, same as DotA.

    World of Warcraft is a MMO just like GW2... still, WoW has capture the flag, conquest, king of the hill, arena, etc. lots of game modes :)

    LMAO

    WoW has 2 pvp modes - BGs and Arena (both having rated version). EoT.

    By you logic GW2 also has MobA-style PvP with 2 lanes, Domination-style PvP, large scale PvP (WvW), Capture the Flag PvP (the one unranked map where u are carrying white orb for extra points), castle defense and huge amount of PvP modes in festivals.

    Does all that matter? No? So does all the pvp modes in WoW - the only end-game, legit PvP there is Rated Arena and that knows every PvP player that is worth something. And trust me - all the rank 1 players would swap pillar hugging pvp for objective-based, 5-man PvP like the one in GW2, because it is impossible to balance WoW in it's current state, last-man standing game mode that is Rated Arena.

    I agree that WoW has generally 2 pvp modes, and I agree that the only competetive one that counts is the arena (or for some even more specific - 3v3 mode). But I dont think we should compare WoW pvp gamemodes and GW2. Lets be honest, who plays stronghold? We had deathmatch map, which was removed (kek). 2v2 and 3v3 is total clownfiesta who gets more ca**cerous team comp (faaaar more than what it looks like in WoW, because gw2 is not optimised for 2v2 or 3v3). WvW is like open world pvp but...not really. Few years ago maybe, sieges, castles, battles. But now its just a bunch of boomers and newcomers that are welcomed by last roamers and hardnoped to never come again (maybe for daily purposes only).
    That leaves only 5v5 conquest with some side quests like slaying beasts in forest or nuking lord. In WoW you have plenty of different maps with different MAIN quests. Hold/capture flags, assault/defend castle, assault/defend fortress, get resources, escort minecarts, escort and cap flag, hold orbs. Its like over 10 completly different maps and then you get weekly brawl which is another story. And those are only BGs, that are 'casually' played since 16 years and trust me, theyre all still fun. Then there are open world pvp and arenas. You dont have to make all pvp modes competetive, you have to make them fun to play, diverse so that after playing same game 8 years, majority of audience still wants to que (and when we look at que times, amounts of bots and cheaters, its a sad truth).
    I speak as a person that reached leg division in gw2 many times and so did glad in wow. And no, I dont think that we would swap our pillar hugging pvp for holding 3 circles. Im not saying that gw2 pvp is bad or worse than wow, nooo, combat is great. Its different, but for sure its far far less diverse than what its big brother WoW has to offer

    PS: comparing MOBA to MMO, lol. Yes, it has 1 map, but the amount of possibilities with different champs, tactics, items, builds etc etc. Just...dont. Dont compare those 2 modes please.

    Dont mind me, I just randomly spam 35 skill-buttons
    25.02.2020 edit - Nevermind, now I spam only 29 skill-buttons

  • Zawn.9647Zawn.9647 Member ✭✭✭

    @Widmo.3186 said:

    @Omernon.9762 said:

    @Zawn.9647 said:

    @wevh.2903 said:
    This is ridiculous , lol has one competitive map xdd the point is switching the meta and playstyle

    HAHAHAHA are you serious? what an argument
    LoL is a moba, it has only one map because that's the game. 3 lanes, jungles and 2 bases, same as DotA.

    World of Warcraft is a MMO just like GW2... still, WoW has capture the flag, conquest, king of the hill, arena, etc. lots of game modes :)

    LMAO

    WoW has 2 pvp modes - BGs and Arena (both having rated version). EoT.

    By you logic GW2 also has MobA-style PvP with 2 lanes, Domination-style PvP, large scale PvP (WvW), Capture the Flag PvP (the one unranked map where u are carrying white orb for extra points), castle defense and huge amount of PvP modes in festivals.

    Does all that matter? No? So does all the pvp modes in WoW - the only end-game, legit PvP there is Rated Arena and that knows every PvP player that is worth something. And trust me - all the rank 1 players would swap pillar hugging pvp for objective-based, 5-man PvP like the one in GW2, because it is impossible to balance WoW in it's current state, last-man standing game mode that is Rated Arena.

    I agree that WoW has generally 2 pvp modes, and I agree that the only competetive one that counts is the arena (or for some even more specific - 3v3 mode). But I dont think we should compare WoW pvp gamemodes and GW2. Lets be honest, who plays stronghold? We had deathmatch map, which was removed (kek). 2v2 and 3v3 is total clownfiesta who gets more ca**cerous team comp (faaaar more than what it looks like in WoW, because gw2 is not optimised for 2v2 or 3v3). WvW is like open world pvp but...not really. Few years ago maybe, sieges, castles, battles. But now its just a bunch of boomers and newcomers that are welcomed by last roamers and hardnoped to never come again (maybe for daily purposes only).
    That leaves only 5v5 conquest with some side quests like slaying beasts in forest or nuking lord. In WoW you have plenty of different maps with different MAIN quests. Hold/capture flags, assault/defend castle, assault/defend fortress, get resources, escort minecarts, escort and cap flag, hold orbs. Its like over 10 completly different maps and then you get weekly brawl which is another story. And those are only BGs, that are 'casually' played since 16 years and trust me, theyre all still fun. Then there are open world pvp and arenas. You dont have to make all pvp modes competetive, you have to make them fun to play, diverse so that after playing same game 8 years, majority of audience still wants to que (and when we look at que times, amounts of bots and cheaters, its a sad truth).
    I speak as a person that reached leg division in gw2 many times and so did glad in wow. And no, I dont think that we would swap our pillar hugging pvp for holding 3 circles. Im not saying that gw2 pvp is bad or worse than wow, nooo, combat is great. Its different, but for sure its far far less diverse than what its big brother WoW has to offer

    PS: comparing MOBA to MMO, lol. Yes, it has 1 map, but the amount of possibilities with different champs, tactics, items, builds etc etc. Just...dont. Dont compare those 2 modes please.

    don't even try... these people doesn't even have a clue about what they're talking :/

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 4, 2020

    @Shiyo.3578 said:
    GW2 is PvP MMO with diablo PvE. Not sure how anyone thinks this is a PvE MMO because it's absolutely not, you mindlessly grind gold to get your legendary gear to show off in WvW and PvP.

    End game is WvW.

    Let's be honest ... what this game is at it's core is PVE with enabled competitive zones; that is a very important to see how this is different from a game that correctly differentiates competitive and PVE play and designs around each. The game was in NO WAY imagined to be designed around competitive play when released because class skills were designed for PVE and it had no skill splits to design those class skills with competitive play in mind until MUCH later in the game.

    If the game was designed around competitive zones, those splits and skills would have been implemented in the game right from the beginning or VERY soon after release. Do not convince yourself that somehow GW2 was intended to be focused on competitive play when it was released or even until recently when Anet realized class skills must be different between PVE and competitive play.

    If you're on a highway and roadrunner goes "beep beep"
    Just step aside or you might end up in a heap

  • Eddbopkins.2630Eddbopkins.2630 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 4, 2020

    A game called guildwars that doesnt focus on guild warsing at all....and after 8 years. Im embarressed for them. Gw1 had everytging a mmo pvp game should have for the time. Gw2 fell far far far from the tree and is essentially a completely different game witch should have a different name, not a name implying something somewhat resembaling its predecessor but with little to no focus on what made its predecessor great.

  • Rukia.4802Rukia.4802 Member ✭✭✭

    @Widmo.3186 said:

    @Omernon.9762 said:

    @Zawn.9647 said:

    @wevh.2903 said:
    This is ridiculous , lol has one competitive map xdd the point is switching the meta and playstyle

    HAHAHAHA are you serious? what an argument
    LoL is a moba, it has only one map because that's the game. 3 lanes, jungles and 2 bases, same as DotA.

    World of Warcraft is a MMO just like GW2... still, WoW has capture the flag, conquest, king of the hill, arena, etc. lots of game modes :)

    LMAO

    WoW has 2 pvp modes - BGs and Arena (both having rated version). EoT.

    By you logic GW2 also has MobA-style PvP with 2 lanes, Domination-style PvP, large scale PvP (WvW), Capture the Flag PvP (the one unranked map where u are carrying white orb for extra points), castle defense and huge amount of PvP modes in festivals.

    Does all that matter? No? So does all the pvp modes in WoW - the only end-game, legit PvP there is Rated Arena and that knows every PvP player that is worth something. And trust me - all the rank 1 players would swap pillar hugging pvp for objective-based, 5-man PvP like the one in GW2, because it is impossible to balance WoW in it's current state, last-man standing game mode that is Rated Arena.

    I agree that WoW has generally 2 pvp modes, and I agree that the only competetive one that counts is the arena (or for some even more specific - 3v3 mode). But I dont think we should compare WoW pvp gamemodes and GW2. Lets be honest, who plays stronghold? We had deathmatch map, which was removed (kek). 2v2 and 3v3 is total clownfiesta who gets more ca**cerous team comp (faaaar more than what it looks like in WoW, because gw2 is not optimised for 2v2 or 3v3). WvW is like open world pvp but...not really. Few years ago maybe, sieges, castles, battles. But now its just a bunch of boomers and newcomers that are welcomed by last roamers and hardnoped to never come again (maybe for daily purposes only).
    That leaves only 5v5 conquest with some side quests like slaying beasts in forest or nuking lord. In WoW you have plenty of different maps with different MAIN quests. Hold/capture flags, assault/defend castle, assault/defend fortress, get resources, escort minecarts, escort and cap flag, hold orbs. Its like over 10 completly different maps and then you get weekly brawl which is another story. And those are only BGs, that are 'casually' played since 16 years and trust me, theyre all still fun. Then there are open world pvp and arenas. You dont have to make all pvp modes competetive, you have to make them fun to play, diverse so that after playing same game 8 years, majority of audience still wants to que (and when we look at que times, amounts of bots and cheaters, its a sad truth).
    I speak as a person that reached leg division in gw2 many times and so did glad in wow. And no, I dont think that we would swap our pillar hugging pvp for holding 3 circles. Im not saying that gw2 pvp is bad or worse than wow, nooo, combat is great. Its different, but for sure its far far less diverse than what its big brother WoW has to offer

    PS: comparing MOBA to MMO, lol. Yes, it has 1 map, but the amount of possibilities with different champs, tactics, items, builds etc etc. Just...dont. Dont compare those 2 modes please.

    Well said, I've been enjoying myself in WoW BGs

    I am willing to go with the gear grind at this point, because it should be more about fun than competitiveness, I realized this more as I got older. The BGs are where the FUN is at and that's why they have so many maps and modes. The brawls are awesome, currently its on eots where you get shot up in the air and can fly to any part of the map, simply hilarious and fun. Is it balanced? Hell no. But who cares.. The only reason to play GW2 is because of no gear grind to pvp. That reason alone doesn't carry this game anymore, pvp is dead because it is neglected and has only a competitive mode.

    I will play cantha no doubt, its my favorite campaign from 1 but pvp is a clown fiesta with 0 variety. GW1 pvp was so great because it had casual fun maps and competitive maps as well. I mean who didn't enjoy FA/JQ/AB even as a pver.. everyone played those because is was simple mindless fun. I just want to bring FUN back to pvp not sweat my balls off carrying a team of scrubs in 5v5 every day.

    There is a time to be competitive, and there's a time to relax and slay some nerds for the lulz in a fun environment.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 18, 2020

    @Rukia.4802 said:

    @Widmo.3186 said:

    @Omernon.9762 said:

    @Zawn.9647 said:

    @wevh.2903 said:
    This is ridiculous , lol has one competitive map xdd the point is switching the meta and playstyle

    HAHAHAHA are you serious? what an argument
    LoL is a moba, it has only one map because that's the game. 3 lanes, jungles and 2 bases, same as DotA.

    World of Warcraft is a MMO just like GW2... still, WoW has capture the flag, conquest, king of the hill, arena, etc. lots of game modes :)

    LMAO

    WoW has 2 pvp modes - BGs and Arena (both having rated version). EoT.

    By you logic GW2 also has MobA-style PvP with 2 lanes, Domination-style PvP, large scale PvP (WvW), Capture the Flag PvP (the one unranked map where u are carrying white orb for extra points), castle defense and huge amount of PvP modes in festivals.

    Does all that matter? No? So does all the pvp modes in WoW - the only end-game, legit PvP there is Rated Arena and that knows every PvP player that is worth something. And trust me - all the rank 1 players would swap pillar hugging pvp for objective-based, 5-man PvP like the one in GW2, because it is impossible to balance WoW in it's current state, last-man standing game mode that is Rated Arena.

    I agree that WoW has generally 2 pvp modes, and I agree that the only competetive one that counts is the arena (or for some even more specific - 3v3 mode). But I dont think we should compare WoW pvp gamemodes and GW2. Lets be honest, who plays stronghold? We had deathmatch map, which was removed (kek). 2v2 and 3v3 is total clownfiesta who gets more ca**cerous team comp (faaaar more than what it looks like in WoW, because gw2 is not optimised for 2v2 or 3v3). WvW is like open world pvp but...not really. Few years ago maybe, sieges, castles, battles. But now its just a bunch of boomers and newcomers that are welcomed by last roamers and hardnoped to never come again (maybe for daily purposes only).
    That leaves only 5v5 conquest with some side quests like slaying beasts in forest or nuking lord. In WoW you have plenty of different maps with different MAIN quests. Hold/capture flags, assault/defend castle, assault/defend fortress, get resources, escort minecarts, escort and cap flag, hold orbs. Its like over 10 completly different maps and then you get weekly brawl which is another story. And those are only BGs, that are 'casually' played since 16 years and trust me, theyre all still fun. Then there are open world pvp and arenas. You dont have to make all pvp modes competetive, you have to make them fun to play, diverse so that after playing same game 8 years, majority of audience still wants to que (and when we look at que times, amounts of bots and cheaters, its a sad truth).
    I speak as a person that reached leg division in gw2 many times and so did glad in wow. And no, I dont think that we would swap our pillar hugging pvp for holding 3 circles. Im not saying that gw2 pvp is bad or worse than wow, nooo, combat is great. Its different, but for sure its far far less diverse than what its big brother WoW has to offer

    PS: comparing MOBA to MMO, lol. Yes, it has 1 map, but the amount of possibilities with different champs, tactics, items, builds etc etc. Just...dont. Dont compare those 2 modes please.

    Well said, I've been enjoying myself in WoW BGs

    I am willing to go with the gear grind at this point, because it should be more about fun than competitiveness, I realized this more as I got older. The BGs are where the FUN is at and that's why they have so many maps and modes. The brawls are awesome, currently its on eots where you get shot up in the air and can fly to any part of the map, simply hilarious and fun. Is it balanced? Hell no. But who cares.. The only reason to play GW2 is because of no gear grind to pvp. That reason alone doesn't carry this game anymore, pvp is dead because it is neglected and has only a competitive mode.

    I will play cantha no doubt, its my favorite campaign from 1 but pvp is a clown fiesta with 0 variety. GW1 pvp was so great because it had casual fun maps and competitive maps as well. I mean who didn't enjoy FA/JQ/AB even as a pver.. everyone played those because is was simple mindless fun. I just want to bring FUN back to pvp not sweat my balls off carrying a team of scrubs in 5v5 every day.

    There is a time to be competitive, and there's a time to relax and slay some nerds for the lulz in a fun environment.

    Same here, made the switch to wow 3 weeks ago after finally listening to a bud. I'm not nearly as good in bg's and arena as I am in gw2 but were having a blast, gw2 combat mechanics may have a slight edge but wow's pvp is just more fun which is what matters most in the end. With SL on the horizon they've been doing alpha/beta testing of the changes to all the classes and the forum has a specific section for feedback on each. They are big changes as well not a couple number changes to a few classes or lmao a number change/nerf that's just thrown onto all classes and call it a day like gw2 feb patch.
    Gw2 definitely started out as a pvp oriented game but I think maintaining it proved to difficult for the team and was easier just to release pve content which is easier to maintain unlike pvp which needs constant maintenance, gw2 now is def pve oriented with pvp being a forethought.
    One thing I cant understand is with games like ff14 and wow existing why would u chose gw2 for pve? I can only think maybe because its f2p.

  • uh... gw2 is obviously a pve game. the very damage system is 100% made for grinding down millions of hp, not balanced pvp game play. all the updates and focus is pve. its the most obvious thing in the world.

    Te lazla otstara.

  • KryTiKaL.3125KryTiKaL.3125 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Rukia.4802 said:
    1 recognized (?) pvp mode

    Let's count how much pvp content GW1 got.. with a much smaller budget and team.

    Yep, because GW 1 was designed as a PvP game. Guild Wars 2 wasn't. : Even in Guild Wars 1 developed as time progressed, the updates were more and more PvE. And didn't expect PvE to be as popular as it was, but it was undeniably what ended up driving the game. The evidence is that Anet made Guild Wars 2 about PvE predominantly. You can tell by the number of updates PvE gets by comparison.

    Anet said, before Guild Wars 2 launched that they intentionally didn't talk about PVP for the first year after the announcement to try to break people out of the idea this was a PvP based game. They said this at shows and on panels. The focus of this game was always been PvE from day one. That's why it talked on the official website about the game being a living breathing world. That's why they focused on dynamic events.

    Thats why their steam page DIRECTLY talks about competitive play and that its a competitive game?
    https://gyazo.com/7c04627da02a77ffc38f65d04853cae2

    Sure they mention it. Just like a hotel that has tennis courts might mention them in an ad, but it doesn't make it a tennis hotel. There are four paragrpahs there, and one of them talks about competitive play which obviously from the wording covers both PvP and WvW. They're lumped in together in one paragraph. They don't even get their own seperate paragraph. Looks to me that one of the paragraphis there is about story, one is about dynamic events, one is about combat in general and one paragraph is shared between two completely different types of PvP.

    I don't know a lot of people who would argue at this point that this game is centered on PvP. Just look at the game updates Anet absolutely said what I said they said. That they didn't talk about PvP for the first year to make it clear this wasn't a PvP centric game. Because they had trouble getting people into GW 1 later on because everyone assumed it was a PvP centric game. They've never had the bulk of their devs working on PvP. And I don't know any PvPers who think they have.

    You can believe anything you want, but the evidence doesn't really support what you're implying here.

    Actually it does, you don't need a combat engine or system like they have for PvE. Simple. Dodging was made popular by guild wars 2, sure tera online and a few others tried it but not to the extent this game has. It only shines in Competitive play; Its nice in PvE but most time its stack and spank unless in raids and even then most of the time its stack and spank. The combat engine was built for PvP, E-sports was their plan in HoT and failed due to balance, WvW was their end-game mode with dungeons and fractals as well new maps being the only thing PvE had.

    Ontop of that WvW DIRECTLY effected PvE and vice versa before the mega-servers. The game was built with PvP in mind and a bunch of PvE players began whining because it was the end-game, which was back when everyone claimed it had no end-game. Now end-game PvE exists and its more niche than WvW and it still gets more content Cadence (not saying alot here). Im sorry but the evidence points to end-game anything outside of PvE maps not being the focus, be it fractals, PvP, WvW, Raiding or what have you. The game is made to sell you new maps and mastery's and it has been this way since mid way through S3 of the living world~ And from the looks of it I'd say they are turning course back around to where ALL modes are taken better care of.

    You, as a PvE fiend who sit here and diminish the importance of competitive modes don't understand that there is a big market for PvP in mmo's. And when we go to steam there will be a pretty big fire being burnt because a lot of those people want competition. Just because you don't care/like/want or acknowledge the mode as anything more than a waste of time (guessing based on how you dismiss it) Doesn't mean everyone else does. I personally see raids and strikes, as well fractals as a waste of time as they offer no power increase for the BS that exist within those game modes. And the shenanigans and rude people who exist within them; Id rather those resources be put the work elsewhere but surprise, surprise... new fractal in sep. And fractals aren't even a focus in the game~ And haven't been for a long time.

    This game as never focused on PvP. For years and years and y ears, people in the PvP and WvW community have complained about lack of updates compared to PvE. You can try to spin this any way you like but it's just not the case. From launch, count the updates that affected each, it really is that simple.

    You may have a different opinion but the raised voices of the WvW and PvP community tell a completely different story. So does the raid community for that matter.

    Raids have been abandoned and you'll likely be hard pressed to see another one. PvE end-game is not successful here so HONESTLY looking at what A-net themselves have said, Fractals are the most succesful of the PvE end-game. So outside of living world maps/expansion maps stop developing everything else and focus there, close down those waste of space modes and roll their rewards into those two modes. Cull the player-base of the ones you dont want or care about, and just do more of the same because honestly NONE but Open world PvE have the participation to warrant existence. Even fractals likely don't have enough to really warrant development, how long has it been since we got a new one? We get one this month. How long until the next one?

    It was PvP focused, Go back and look at HoT and look at Core and how they marketed it. WvW and PvP even had their own trailers and they were talked about once they knew what they wanted to do; The combat engine was designed for it. Your opinion is wrong and willfully ignorant and Ill call you on it, Dodge rolling and the like of what we have combat wise is not needed for PvE once so ever and honestly offer WAAAY too many balancing problems for them to have willfully made the game this way. The game changed directions because of their inability and lack of drive to balance the game; E-sports is pretty dang boring when its two teams of the same class/classes duking it out because its literally more of a western stand-off than it is a sporting event.

    E-sports require variation and diversity in builds, characters and skill-sets and this game? Never has and likely never will offer or demand that. Think what you will, but I suggest we walk away from communication with one another. Im not about to conceded to your ludicrous point and you refuse to acknowledge or understand mine, there is a communication barrier and we can't co-exist because frankly Im unable to not come at you over an opinion based on a lie. So respectfully do not reply, let it go and I shall do the same and we will part with this. Or we can continue to do this for the next two weeks and argue; Im leaving that choice entirely up to you but Im not going to be as forthcoming or tolerant going forward.

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Rukia.4802 said:
    1 recognized (?) pvp mode

    Let's count how much pvp content GW1 got.. with a much smaller budget and team.

    Yep, because GW 1 was designed as a PvP game. Guild Wars 2 wasn't. : Even in Guild Wars 1 developed as time progressed, the updates were more and more PvE. And didn't expect PvE to be as popular as it was, but it was undeniably what ended up driving the game. The evidence is that Anet made Guild Wars 2 about PvE predominantly. You can tell by the number of updates PvE gets by comparison.

    Anet said, before Guild Wars 2 launched that they intentionally didn't talk about PVP for the first year after the announcement to try to break people out of the idea this was a PvP based game. They said this at shows and on panels. The focus of this game was always been PvE from day one. That's why it talked on the official website about the game being a living breathing world. That's why they focused on dynamic events.

    Thats why their steam page DIRECTLY talks about competitive play and that its a competitive game?
    https://gyazo.com/7c04627da02a77ffc38f65d04853cae2

    Sure they mention it. Just like a hotel that has tennis courts might mention them in an ad, but it doesn't make it a tennis hotel. There are four paragrpahs there, and one of them talks about competitive play which obviously from the wording covers both PvP and WvW. They're lumped in together in one paragraph. They don't even get their own seperate paragraph. Looks to me that one of the paragraphis there is about story, one is about dynamic events, one is about combat in general and one paragraph is shared between two completely different types of PvP.

    I don't know a lot of people who would argue at this point that this game is centered on PvP. Just look at the game updates Anet absolutely said what I said they said. That they didn't talk about PvP for the first year to make it clear this wasn't a PvP centric game. Because they had trouble getting people into GW 1 later on because everyone assumed it was a PvP centric game. They've never had the bulk of their devs working on PvP. And I don't know any PvPers who think they have.

    You can believe anything you want, but the evidence doesn't really support what you're implying here.

    Actually it does, you don't need a combat engine or system like they have for PvE. Simple. Dodging was made popular by guild wars 2, sure tera online and a few others tried it but not to the extent this game has. It only shines in Competitive play; Its nice in PvE but most time its stack and spank unless in raids and even then most of the time its stack and spank. The combat engine was built for PvP, E-sports was their plan in HoT and failed due to balance, WvW was their end-game mode with dungeons and fractals as well new maps being the only thing PvE had.

    Ontop of that WvW DIRECTLY effected PvE and vice versa before the mega-servers. The game was built with PvP in mind and a bunch of PvE players began whining because it was the end-game, which was back when everyone claimed it had no end-game. Now end-game PvE exists and its more niche than WvW and it still gets more content Cadence (not saying alot here). Im sorry but the evidence points to end-game anything outside of PvE maps not being the focus, be it fractals, PvP, WvW, Raiding or what have you. The game is made to sell you new maps and mastery's and it has been this way since mid way through S3 of the living world~ And from the looks of it I'd say they are turning course back around to where ALL modes are taken better care of.

    You, as a PvE fiend who sit here and diminish the importance of competitive modes don't understand that there is a big market for PvP in mmo's. And when we go to steam there will be a pretty big fire being burnt because a lot of those people want competition. Just because you don't care/like/want or acknowledge the mode as anything more than a waste of time (guessing based on how you dismiss it) Doesn't mean everyone else does. I personally see raids and strikes, as well fractals as a waste of time as they offer no power increase for the BS that exist within those game modes. And the shenanigans and rude people who exist within them; Id rather those resources be put the work elsewhere but surprise, surprise... new fractal in sep. And fractals aren't even a focus in the game~ And haven't been for a long time.

    This game as never focused on PvP. For years and years and y ears, people in the PvP and WvW community have complained about lack of updates compared to PvE. You can try to spin this any way you like but it's just not the case. From launch, count the updates that affected each, it really is that simple.

    You may have a different opinion but the raised voices of the WvW and PvP community tell a completely different story. So does the raid community for that matter.

    Raids have been abandoned and you'll likely be hard pressed to see another one. PvE end-game is not successful here so HONESTLY looking at what A-net themselves have said, Fractals are the most succesful of the PvE end-game. So outside of living world maps/expansion maps stop developing everything else and focus there, close down those waste of space modes and roll their rewards into those two modes. Cull the player-base of the ones you dont want or care about, and just do more of the same because honestly NONE but Open world PvE have the participation to warrant existence. Even fractals likely don't have enough to really warrant development, how long has it been since we got a new one? We get one this month. How long until the next one?

    It was PvP focused, Go back and look at HoT and look at Core and how they marketed it. WvW and PvP even had their own trailers and they were talked about once they knew what they wanted to do; The combat engine was designed for it. Your opinion is wrong and willfully ignorant and Ill call you on it, Dodge rolling and the like of what we have combat wise is not needed for PvE once so ever and honestly offer WAAAY too many balancing problems for them to have willfully made the game this way. The game changed directions because of their inability and lack of drive to balance the game; E-sports is pretty dang boring when its two teams of the same class/classes duking it out because its literally more of a western stand-off than it is a sporting event.

    E-sports require variation and diversity in builds, characters and skill-sets and this game? Never has and likely never will offer or demand that. Think what you will, but I suggest we walk away from communication with one another. Im not about to conceded to your ludicrous point and you refuse to acknowledge or understand mine, there is a communication barrier and we can't co-exist because frankly Im unable to not come at you over an opinion based on a lie. So respectfully do not reply, let it go and I shall do the same and we will part with this. Or we can continue to do this for the next two weeks and argue; Im leaving that choice entirely up to you but Im not going to be as forthcoming or tolerant going forward.

    You've said it yourself. For many many years now, the main focus of development has been story, meta events, dynamic events, and the occasional fractal. That's pretty much it. But back in the days of Season 1 of the Living World. PvE was getting content every two weeks and all I heard, even back then, were PvPers who felt abandoned by the company. You can write as many paragraphs as you like but the PvE focus has been here since Season 1, when PvE was getting the vast majority of updates.

    Edit: Traditional end game definitions NEVER applied to this game. The game didn't launch with raids. The devs themselves said they considered the three Orr zones end game. Dungeons too were obviously end game, but it wasn't what the devs were talking about, when they talked about the game, at least not by percentage of time. In HoT, zone metas were considered end game and still probably are for most people. Raids and Fractals are the instanced end game, but this game has been focused more on the open world.

    Which simply is why its doomed to not live as long as the competition. If End of dragons doesn't do well I wont be surprised if NCsoft pulls the plug, they've done so to games more successful for less.

    In the 8 years GW2 has been alive it outlived most of its competition ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    Took NCSoft long enough to pull the plug on Wildstar and Aion is still alive with less sales.
    Also they only recently gave Tencent the publishing rights in China.

    Those aren't "most of its competition" though. TERA is still going (unfortunately), WoW is still going much stronger, FFXIV is also going much stronger, BDO pushes GW2 out with its larger daily populations and better player retention, ESO (which is probably GW2s closest "competitor" in terms of combat mechanics and otherwise) is going stronger than GW2 with active population. Runescape, and I mean Oldschool Runescape, holds players better than GW2.

    Not to mention upcoming MMOs are probably going to siphon even more playerbase from GW2. Lost Ark is confirmed for Western release in 2021, it might not have the "lack of a gear treadmill" that GW2 has, but it does have completely equalized PvP arenas which will undoubtedly pull most of whatever remains of the PvP population away from this game.> @Rukia.4802 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Rukia.4802 said:
    1 recognized (?) pvp mode

    Let's count how much pvp content GW1 got.. with a much smaller budget and team.

    Yep, because GW 1 was designed as a PvP game. Guild Wars 2 wasn't. : Even in Guild Wars 1 developed as time progressed, the updates were more and more PvE. And didn't expect PvE to be as popular as it was, but it was undeniably what ended up driving the game. The evidence is that Anet made Guild Wars 2 about PvE predominantly. You can tell by the number of updates PvE gets by comparison.

    Anet said, before Guild Wars 2 launched that they intentionally didn't talk about PVP for the first year after the announcement to try to break people out of the idea this was a PvP based game. They said this at shows and on panels. The focus of this game was always been PvE from day one. That's why it talked on the official website about the game being a living breathing world. That's why they focused on dynamic events.

    I know you are ANets biggest simp but let me get this str8.

    You think GW1 was designed purely as a pvp game, with all its great detail into the campaign modes, tons of extra zones that have nothing to do with the actual main story (prophecies alone is credibly HUGE).. a fully fleshed out lore base, elite capturing, armor and weapons, I could go on.. but you're kidding, right? It was both right from the start, only difference is GW1 succeeded because it had a competent team of developers and GW2 didn't.

    Now lets look at GW2, where you (insanely) claim that it was designed purely as a pve game and never took pvp seriously. Oh boy, I guess you weren't around when ANet really pushed legitimate e-sports with spvp. They tried hard, and failed miserably. The pvp just wasn't interesting or fun to watch, much less play.

    Just because GW1 pvp was successful along with its pve doesn't mean that it was a pvp game, but a game with great pvp. Right from the start you could choose to create a pvp character instead of pve, so why would they even bother with pve then and all that crazy amount of content it had. your claims , to put it nicely, are quite hilarious at best.

    Also thank you for saying this so I didn't have to. Very much so its a terrible misconception to think that GW2 was designed only as a PvE experience, same as it is a terrible misconception that GW1 was designed only as a PvP experience. It did well in both areas. GW2 even started out, to some extent, with that intention in mind but they had difficulties in the beginning to try and flesh out a meaningful PvE experience and even now I think they still haven't even done that. PvE in GW2 is extremely shallow...and is bloated with all these different "projects" of theirs that haven't fully panned out how they want. Dungeons don't get updated ever anymore, Fractals are stagnant with scarcely added new Fractals, Raids have even less being added to them, Strikes became their new baby for the PvE "endgame" but I feel like that has also fallen off and will likely get dumped soon enough, and open world is laughably easy where "spamming 1" is the extent of what you need to do for a majority of practically any mob fight.

    ANet dropped the ball hard on how it has handled GW2 over the years. Is it dead or dying? No. Is it a worse experience when paired against other MMOs in its assumed weight class in the genre? Yes, absolutely it is.

  • Jekkt.6045Jekkt.6045 Member ✭✭✭

    i remember when we had frequent dev streams for pvp where they showed balance updates, trait reworks and new skills (well, we only got new skills once in vanilla..).

    back then they at least tried to care. now everything is functionally bloated and feels cookie cutterish.

    as far as what the game was designed for.. who knows? who cares? but it turns out the combat system is way better for pvp than pve in this game. and that's what they should have gone for. it would have even been fine to seperate them into two games running on the same engine. if we talk pve, the combat just sucks and there's no need to sugarcoat anything. skill rotations are bland and there's no complexity to it, no proce just mindlessly pressing skill b after skill a and repeat. other games like wow and ffxiv do a much better job with pve. on the other hand, i firmly believe those two games' combat is worse for pvp. and just to say this, when i talk about the gw2 combat system i strictly talk about the system, not about how horrendeous the balance is since pre HoT.

  • zinkz.7045zinkz.7045 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 17, 2020

    Seems we have a lot of new players here.

    The combat, class skills/traits, mechanics, etc were originally designed around PvP, because Anet's original "vision" was PvP was the serious bit, whilst PvE / WvW were the casual fun (they even made a virtue of the game not having "toxic" raids). Which is why early in the game when the devs (Jon Peters, etc) used to do Twitch streams going through the balance patches, the vast majority of the changes were justified in relation to the PvP meta.

    It is also why Sacrx a "famous" WvW player who was in alpha, made a notorious video about the neglect of WvW from Anet, which included how pre-launch WvW (and PvE) were basically ignored in regard to design / balance for combat and the only feedback the devs gave any consideration to was what Teldo & Co thought in PvP.

    PvP remained the focus (in terms of combat, balance, etc) until they decided to add "serious" PvE to the game with HoT.

    So in terms of combat (mechanics, class skills, traits, etc), GW2 was very much originally designed with PvP as the focus.

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 16, 2020

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Rukia.4802 said:
    1 recognized (?) pvp mode

    Let's count how much pvp content GW1 got.. with a much smaller budget and team.

    Yep, because GW 1 was designed as a PvP game. Guild Wars 2 wasn't. : Even in Guild Wars 1 developed as time progressed, the updates were more and more PvE. And didn't expect PvE to be as popular as it was, but it was undeniably what ended up driving the game. The evidence is that Anet made Guild Wars 2 about PvE predominantly. You can tell by the number of updates PvE gets by comparison.

    Anet said, before Guild Wars 2 launched that they intentionally didn't talk about PVP for the first year after the announcement to try to break people out of the idea this was a PvP based game. They said this at shows and on panels. The focus of this game was always been PvE from day one. That's why it talked on the official website about the game being a living breathing world. That's why they focused on dynamic events.

    Thats why their steam page DIRECTLY talks about competitive play and that its a competitive game?
    https://gyazo.com/7c04627da02a77ffc38f65d04853cae2

    Sure they mention it. Just like a hotel that has tennis courts might mention them in an ad, but it doesn't make it a tennis hotel. There are four paragrpahs there, and one of them talks about competitive play which obviously from the wording covers both PvP and WvW. They're lumped in together in one paragraph. They don't even get their own seperate paragraph. Looks to me that one of the paragraphis there is about story, one is about dynamic events, one is about combat in general and one paragraph is shared between two completely different types of PvP.

    I don't know a lot of people who would argue at this point that this game is centered on PvP. Just look at the game updates Anet absolutely said what I said they said. That they didn't talk about PvP for the first year to make it clear this wasn't a PvP centric game. Because they had trouble getting people into GW 1 later on because everyone assumed it was a PvP centric game. They've never had the bulk of their devs working on PvP. And I don't know any PvPers who think they have.

    You can believe anything you want, but the evidence doesn't really support what you're implying here.

    Actually it does, you don't need a combat engine or system like they have for PvE. Simple. Dodging was made popular by guild wars 2, sure tera online and a few others tried it but not to the extent this game has. It only shines in Competitive play; Its nice in PvE but most time its stack and spank unless in raids and even then most of the time its stack and spank. The combat engine was built for PvP, E-sports was their plan in HoT and failed due to balance, WvW was their end-game mode with dungeons and fractals as well new maps being the only thing PvE had.

    Ontop of that WvW DIRECTLY effected PvE and vice versa before the mega-servers. The game was built with PvP in mind and a bunch of PvE players began whining because it was the end-game, which was back when everyone claimed it had no end-game. Now end-game PvE exists and its more niche than WvW and it still gets more content Cadence (not saying alot here). Im sorry but the evidence points to end-game anything outside of PvE maps not being the focus, be it fractals, PvP, WvW, Raiding or what have you. The game is made to sell you new maps and mastery's and it has been this way since mid way through S3 of the living world~ And from the looks of it I'd say they are turning course back around to where ALL modes are taken better care of.

    You, as a PvE fiend who sit here and diminish the importance of competitive modes don't understand that there is a big market for PvP in mmo's. And when we go to steam there will be a pretty big fire being burnt because a lot of those people want competition. Just because you don't care/like/want or acknowledge the mode as anything more than a waste of time (guessing based on how you dismiss it) Doesn't mean everyone else does. I personally see raids and strikes, as well fractals as a waste of time as they offer no power increase for the BS that exist within those game modes. And the shenanigans and rude people who exist within them; Id rather those resources be put the work elsewhere but surprise, surprise... new fractal in sep. And fractals aren't even a focus in the game~ And haven't been for a long time.

    This game as never focused on PvP. For years and years and y ears, people in the PvP and WvW community have complained about lack of updates compared to PvE. You can try to spin this any way you like but it's just not the case. From launch, count the updates that affected each, it really is that simple.

    You may have a different opinion but the raised voices of the WvW and PvP community tell a completely different story. So does the raid community for that matter.

    Raids have been abandoned and you'll likely be hard pressed to see another one. PvE end-game is not successful here so HONESTLY looking at what A-net themselves have said, Fractals are the most succesful of the PvE end-game. So outside of living world maps/expansion maps stop developing everything else and focus there, close down those waste of space modes and roll their rewards into those two modes. Cull the player-base of the ones you dont want or care about, and just do more of the same because honestly NONE but Open world PvE have the participation to warrant existence. Even fractals likely don't have enough to really warrant development, how long has it been since we got a new one? We get one this month. How long until the next one?

    It was PvP focused, Go back and look at HoT and look at Core and how they marketed it. WvW and PvP even had their own trailers and they were talked about once they knew what they wanted to do; The combat engine was designed for it. Your opinion is wrong and willfully ignorant and Ill call you on it, Dodge rolling and the like of what we have combat wise is not needed for PvE once so ever and honestly offer WAAAY too many balancing problems for them to have willfully made the game this way. The game changed directions because of their inability and lack of drive to balance the game; E-sports is pretty dang boring when its two teams of the same class/classes duking it out because its literally more of a western stand-off than it is a sporting event.

    E-sports require variation and diversity in builds, characters and skill-sets and this game? Never has and likely never will offer or demand that. Think what you will, but I suggest we walk away from communication with one another. Im not about to conceded to your ludicrous point and you refuse to acknowledge or understand mine, there is a communication barrier and we can't co-exist because frankly Im unable to not come at you over an opinion based on a lie. So respectfully do not reply, let it go and I shall do the same and we will part with this. Or we can continue to do this for the next two weeks and argue; Im leaving that choice entirely up to you but Im not going to be as forthcoming or tolerant going forward.

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Rukia.4802 said:
    1 recognized (?) pvp mode

    Let's count how much pvp content GW1 got.. with a much smaller budget and team.

    Yep, because GW 1 was designed as a PvP game. Guild Wars 2 wasn't. : Even in Guild Wars 1 developed as time progressed, the updates were more and more PvE. And didn't expect PvE to be as popular as it was, but it was undeniably what ended up driving the game. The evidence is that Anet made Guild Wars 2 about PvE predominantly. You can tell by the number of updates PvE gets by comparison.

    Anet said, before Guild Wars 2 launched that they intentionally didn't talk about PVP for the first year after the announcement to try to break people out of the idea this was a PvP based game. They said this at shows and on panels. The focus of this game was always been PvE from day one. That's why it talked on the official website about the game being a living breathing world. That's why they focused on dynamic events.

    Thats why their steam page DIRECTLY talks about competitive play and that its a competitive game?
    https://gyazo.com/7c04627da02a77ffc38f65d04853cae2

    Sure they mention it. Just like a hotel that has tennis courts might mention them in an ad, but it doesn't make it a tennis hotel. There are four paragrpahs there, and one of them talks about competitive play which obviously from the wording covers both PvP and WvW. They're lumped in together in one paragraph. They don't even get their own seperate paragraph. Looks to me that one of the paragraphis there is about story, one is about dynamic events, one is about combat in general and one paragraph is shared between two completely different types of PvP.

    I don't know a lot of people who would argue at this point that this game is centered on PvP. Just look at the game updates Anet absolutely said what I said they said. That they didn't talk about PvP for the first year to make it clear this wasn't a PvP centric game. Because they had trouble getting people into GW 1 later on because everyone assumed it was a PvP centric game. They've never had the bulk of their devs working on PvP. And I don't know any PvPers who think they have.

    You can believe anything you want, but the evidence doesn't really support what you're implying here.

    Actually it does, you don't need a combat engine or system like they have for PvE. Simple. Dodging was made popular by guild wars 2, sure tera online and a few others tried it but not to the extent this game has. It only shines in Competitive play; Its nice in PvE but most time its stack and spank unless in raids and even then most of the time its stack and spank. The combat engine was built for PvP, E-sports was their plan in HoT and failed due to balance, WvW was their end-game mode with dungeons and fractals as well new maps being the only thing PvE had.

    Ontop of that WvW DIRECTLY effected PvE and vice versa before the mega-servers. The game was built with PvP in mind and a bunch of PvE players began whining because it was the end-game, which was back when everyone claimed it had no end-game. Now end-game PvE exists and its more niche than WvW and it still gets more content Cadence (not saying alot here). Im sorry but the evidence points to end-game anything outside of PvE maps not being the focus, be it fractals, PvP, WvW, Raiding or what have you. The game is made to sell you new maps and mastery's and it has been this way since mid way through S3 of the living world~ And from the looks of it I'd say they are turning course back around to where ALL modes are taken better care of.

    You, as a PvE fiend who sit here and diminish the importance of competitive modes don't understand that there is a big market for PvP in mmo's. And when we go to steam there will be a pretty big fire being burnt because a lot of those people want competition. Just because you don't care/like/want or acknowledge the mode as anything more than a waste of time (guessing based on how you dismiss it) Doesn't mean everyone else does. I personally see raids and strikes, as well fractals as a waste of time as they offer no power increase for the BS that exist within those game modes. And the shenanigans and rude people who exist within them; Id rather those resources be put the work elsewhere but surprise, surprise... new fractal in sep. And fractals aren't even a focus in the game~ And haven't been for a long time.

    This game as never focused on PvP. For years and years and y ears, people in the PvP and WvW community have complained about lack of updates compared to PvE. You can try to spin this any way you like but it's just not the case. From launch, count the updates that affected each, it really is that simple.

    You may have a different opinion but the raised voices of the WvW and PvP community tell a completely different story. So does the raid community for that matter.

    Raids have been abandoned and you'll likely be hard pressed to see another one. PvE end-game is not successful here so HONESTLY looking at what A-net themselves have said, Fractals are the most succesful of the PvE end-game. So outside of living world maps/expansion maps stop developing everything else and focus there, close down those waste of space modes and roll their rewards into those two modes. Cull the player-base of the ones you dont want or care about, and just do more of the same because honestly NONE but Open world PvE have the participation to warrant existence. Even fractals likely don't have enough to really warrant development, how long has it been since we got a new one? We get one this month. How long until the next one?

    It was PvP focused, Go back and look at HoT and look at Core and how they marketed it. WvW and PvP even had their own trailers and they were talked about once they knew what they wanted to do; The combat engine was designed for it. Your opinion is wrong and willfully ignorant and Ill call you on it, Dodge rolling and the like of what we have combat wise is not needed for PvE once so ever and honestly offer WAAAY too many balancing problems for them to have willfully made the game this way. The game changed directions because of their inability and lack of drive to balance the game; E-sports is pretty dang boring when its two teams of the same class/classes duking it out because its literally more of a western stand-off than it is a sporting event.

    E-sports require variation and diversity in builds, characters and skill-sets and this game? Never has and likely never will offer or demand that. Think what you will, but I suggest we walk away from communication with one another. Im not about to conceded to your ludicrous point and you refuse to acknowledge or understand mine, there is a communication barrier and we can't co-exist because frankly Im unable to not come at you over an opinion based on a lie. So respectfully do not reply, let it go and I shall do the same and we will part with this. Or we can continue to do this for the next two weeks and argue; Im leaving that choice entirely up to you but Im not going to be as forthcoming or tolerant going forward.

    You've said it yourself. For many many years now, the main focus of development has been story, meta events, dynamic events, and the occasional fractal. That's pretty much it. But back in the days of Season 1 of the Living World. PvE was getting content every two weeks and all I heard, even back then, were PvPers who felt abandoned by the company. You can write as many paragraphs as you like but the PvE focus has been here since Season 1, when PvE was getting the vast majority of updates.

    Edit: Traditional end game definitions NEVER applied to this game. The game didn't launch with raids. The devs themselves said they considered the three Orr zones end game. Dungeons too were obviously end game, but it wasn't what the devs were talking about, when they talked about the game, at least not by percentage of time. In HoT, zone metas were considered end game and still probably are for most people. Raids and Fractals are the instanced end game, but this game has been focused more on the open world.

    Which simply is why its doomed to not live as long as the competition. If End of dragons doesn't do well I wont be surprised if NCsoft pulls the plug, they've done so to games more successful for less.

    In the 8 years GW2 has been alive it outlived most of its competition ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    Took NCSoft long enough to pull the plug on Wildstar and Aion is still alive with less sales.
    Also they only recently gave Tencent the publishing rights in China.

    Those aren't "most of its competition" though. TERA is still going (unfortunately), WoW is still going much stronger, FFXIV is also going much stronger, BDO pushes GW2 out with its larger daily populations and better player retention, ESO (which is probably GW2s closest "competitor" in terms of combat mechanics and otherwise) is going stronger than GW2 with active population. Runescape, and I mean Oldschool Runescape, holds players better than GW2.

    Not to mention upcoming MMOs are probably going to siphon even more playerbase from GW2. Lost Ark is confirmed for Western release in 2021, it might not have the "lack of a gear treadmill" that GW2 has, but it does have completely equalized PvP arenas which will undoubtedly pull most of whatever remains of the PvP population away from this game.

    So you mentioned 6 still living MMORPGs out of how many MMORPGs that died out while GW2 keeps on living?
    Those games you mentioned aren't "most of its competition". Just the current competition that survived.
    I'm also wondering where you're pulling BDO and ESO population playerbase numbers from, I'm interested how they compare to other games.

    Placing your hope in Lost Ark is funny to see. Do you know which games will pull what remains of the PvP population? Actual PvP games, not Lost Ark.
    And that's without mentioning that Lost Ark has a different target audience than GW2.

    You have a heart of gold. Don't let them take it from you.

  • KryTiKaL.3125KryTiKaL.3125 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Rukia.4802 said:
    1 recognized (?) pvp mode

    Let's count how much pvp content GW1 got.. with a much smaller budget and team.

    Yep, because GW 1 was designed as a PvP game. Guild Wars 2 wasn't. : Even in Guild Wars 1 developed as time progressed, the updates were more and more PvE. And didn't expect PvE to be as popular as it was, but it was undeniably what ended up driving the game. The evidence is that Anet made Guild Wars 2 about PvE predominantly. You can tell by the number of updates PvE gets by comparison.

    Anet said, before Guild Wars 2 launched that they intentionally didn't talk about PVP for the first year after the announcement to try to break people out of the idea this was a PvP based game. They said this at shows and on panels. The focus of this game was always been PvE from day one. That's why it talked on the official website about the game being a living breathing world. That's why they focused on dynamic events.

    Thats why their steam page DIRECTLY talks about competitive play and that its a competitive game?
    https://gyazo.com/7c04627da02a77ffc38f65d04853cae2

    Sure they mention it. Just like a hotel that has tennis courts might mention them in an ad, but it doesn't make it a tennis hotel. There are four paragrpahs there, and one of them talks about competitive play which obviously from the wording covers both PvP and WvW. They're lumped in together in one paragraph. They don't even get their own seperate paragraph. Looks to me that one of the paragraphis there is about story, one is about dynamic events, one is about combat in general and one paragraph is shared between two completely different types of PvP.

    I don't know a lot of people who would argue at this point that this game is centered on PvP. Just look at the game updates Anet absolutely said what I said they said. That they didn't talk about PvP for the first year to make it clear this wasn't a PvP centric game. Because they had trouble getting people into GW 1 later on because everyone assumed it was a PvP centric game. They've never had the bulk of their devs working on PvP. And I don't know any PvPers who think they have.

    You can believe anything you want, but the evidence doesn't really support what you're implying here.

    Actually it does, you don't need a combat engine or system like they have for PvE. Simple. Dodging was made popular by guild wars 2, sure tera online and a few others tried it but not to the extent this game has. It only shines in Competitive play; Its nice in PvE but most time its stack and spank unless in raids and even then most of the time its stack and spank. The combat engine was built for PvP, E-sports was their plan in HoT and failed due to balance, WvW was their end-game mode with dungeons and fractals as well new maps being the only thing PvE had.

    Ontop of that WvW DIRECTLY effected PvE and vice versa before the mega-servers. The game was built with PvP in mind and a bunch of PvE players began whining because it was the end-game, which was back when everyone claimed it had no end-game. Now end-game PvE exists and its more niche than WvW and it still gets more content Cadence (not saying alot here). Im sorry but the evidence points to end-game anything outside of PvE maps not being the focus, be it fractals, PvP, WvW, Raiding or what have you. The game is made to sell you new maps and mastery's and it has been this way since mid way through S3 of the living world~ And from the looks of it I'd say they are turning course back around to where ALL modes are taken better care of.

    You, as a PvE fiend who sit here and diminish the importance of competitive modes don't understand that there is a big market for PvP in mmo's. And when we go to steam there will be a pretty big fire being burnt because a lot of those people want competition. Just because you don't care/like/want or acknowledge the mode as anything more than a waste of time (guessing based on how you dismiss it) Doesn't mean everyone else does. I personally see raids and strikes, as well fractals as a waste of time as they offer no power increase for the BS that exist within those game modes. And the shenanigans and rude people who exist within them; Id rather those resources be put the work elsewhere but surprise, surprise... new fractal in sep. And fractals aren't even a focus in the game~ And haven't been for a long time.

    This game as never focused on PvP. For years and years and y ears, people in the PvP and WvW community have complained about lack of updates compared to PvE. You can try to spin this any way you like but it's just not the case. From launch, count the updates that affected each, it really is that simple.

    You may have a different opinion but the raised voices of the WvW and PvP community tell a completely different story. So does the raid community for that matter.

    Raids have been abandoned and you'll likely be hard pressed to see another one. PvE end-game is not successful here so HONESTLY looking at what A-net themselves have said, Fractals are the most succesful of the PvE end-game. So outside of living world maps/expansion maps stop developing everything else and focus there, close down those waste of space modes and roll their rewards into those two modes. Cull the player-base of the ones you dont want or care about, and just do more of the same because honestly NONE but Open world PvE have the participation to warrant existence. Even fractals likely don't have enough to really warrant development, how long has it been since we got a new one? We get one this month. How long until the next one?

    It was PvP focused, Go back and look at HoT and look at Core and how they marketed it. WvW and PvP even had their own trailers and they were talked about once they knew what they wanted to do; The combat engine was designed for it. Your opinion is wrong and willfully ignorant and Ill call you on it, Dodge rolling and the like of what we have combat wise is not needed for PvE once so ever and honestly offer WAAAY too many balancing problems for them to have willfully made the game this way. The game changed directions because of their inability and lack of drive to balance the game; E-sports is pretty dang boring when its two teams of the same class/classes duking it out because its literally more of a western stand-off than it is a sporting event.

    E-sports require variation and diversity in builds, characters and skill-sets and this game? Never has and likely never will offer or demand that. Think what you will, but I suggest we walk away from communication with one another. Im not about to conceded to your ludicrous point and you refuse to acknowledge or understand mine, there is a communication barrier and we can't co-exist because frankly Im unable to not come at you over an opinion based on a lie. So respectfully do not reply, let it go and I shall do the same and we will part with this. Or we can continue to do this for the next two weeks and argue; Im leaving that choice entirely up to you but Im not going to be as forthcoming or tolerant going forward.

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Rukia.4802 said:
    1 recognized (?) pvp mode

    Let's count how much pvp content GW1 got.. with a much smaller budget and team.

    Yep, because GW 1 was designed as a PvP game. Guild Wars 2 wasn't. : Even in Guild Wars 1 developed as time progressed, the updates were more and more PvE. And didn't expect PvE to be as popular as it was, but it was undeniably what ended up driving the game. The evidence is that Anet made Guild Wars 2 about PvE predominantly. You can tell by the number of updates PvE gets by comparison.

    Anet said, before Guild Wars 2 launched that they intentionally didn't talk about PVP for the first year after the announcement to try to break people out of the idea this was a PvP based game. They said this at shows and on panels. The focus of this game was always been PvE from day one. That's why it talked on the official website about the game being a living breathing world. That's why they focused on dynamic events.

    Thats why their steam page DIRECTLY talks about competitive play and that its a competitive game?
    https://gyazo.com/7c04627da02a77ffc38f65d04853cae2

    Sure they mention it. Just like a hotel that has tennis courts might mention them in an ad, but it doesn't make it a tennis hotel. There are four paragrpahs there, and one of them talks about competitive play which obviously from the wording covers both PvP and WvW. They're lumped in together in one paragraph. They don't even get their own seperate paragraph. Looks to me that one of the paragraphis there is about story, one is about dynamic events, one is about combat in general and one paragraph is shared between two completely different types of PvP.

    I don't know a lot of people who would argue at this point that this game is centered on PvP. Just look at the game updates Anet absolutely said what I said they said. That they didn't talk about PvP for the first year to make it clear this wasn't a PvP centric game. Because they had trouble getting people into GW 1 later on because everyone assumed it was a PvP centric game. They've never had the bulk of their devs working on PvP. And I don't know any PvPers who think they have.

    You can believe anything you want, but the evidence doesn't really support what you're implying here.

    Actually it does, you don't need a combat engine or system like they have for PvE. Simple. Dodging was made popular by guild wars 2, sure tera online and a few others tried it but not to the extent this game has. It only shines in Competitive play; Its nice in PvE but most time its stack and spank unless in raids and even then most of the time its stack and spank. The combat engine was built for PvP, E-sports was their plan in HoT and failed due to balance, WvW was their end-game mode with dungeons and fractals as well new maps being the only thing PvE had.

    Ontop of that WvW DIRECTLY effected PvE and vice versa before the mega-servers. The game was built with PvP in mind and a bunch of PvE players began whining because it was the end-game, which was back when everyone claimed it had no end-game. Now end-game PvE exists and its more niche than WvW and it still gets more content Cadence (not saying alot here). Im sorry but the evidence points to end-game anything outside of PvE maps not being the focus, be it fractals, PvP, WvW, Raiding or what have you. The game is made to sell you new maps and mastery's and it has been this way since mid way through S3 of the living world~ And from the looks of it I'd say they are turning course back around to where ALL modes are taken better care of.

    You, as a PvE fiend who sit here and diminish the importance of competitive modes don't understand that there is a big market for PvP in mmo's. And when we go to steam there will be a pretty big fire being burnt because a lot of those people want competition. Just because you don't care/like/want or acknowledge the mode as anything more than a waste of time (guessing based on how you dismiss it) Doesn't mean everyone else does. I personally see raids and strikes, as well fractals as a waste of time as they offer no power increase for the BS that exist within those game modes. And the shenanigans and rude people who exist within them; Id rather those resources be put the work elsewhere but surprise, surprise... new fractal in sep. And fractals aren't even a focus in the game~ And haven't been for a long time.

    This game as never focused on PvP. For years and years and y ears, people in the PvP and WvW community have complained about lack of updates compared to PvE. You can try to spin this any way you like but it's just not the case. From launch, count the updates that affected each, it really is that simple.

    You may have a different opinion but the raised voices of the WvW and PvP community tell a completely different story. So does the raid community for that matter.

    Raids have been abandoned and you'll likely be hard pressed to see another one. PvE end-game is not successful here so HONESTLY looking at what A-net themselves have said, Fractals are the most succesful of the PvE end-game. So outside of living world maps/expansion maps stop developing everything else and focus there, close down those waste of space modes and roll their rewards into those two modes. Cull the player-base of the ones you dont want or care about, and just do more of the same because honestly NONE but Open world PvE have the participation to warrant existence. Even fractals likely don't have enough to really warrant development, how long has it been since we got a new one? We get one this month. How long until the next one?

    It was PvP focused, Go back and look at HoT and look at Core and how they marketed it. WvW and PvP even had their own trailers and they were talked about once they knew what they wanted to do; The combat engine was designed for it. Your opinion is wrong and willfully ignorant and Ill call you on it, Dodge rolling and the like of what we have combat wise is not needed for PvE once so ever and honestly offer WAAAY too many balancing problems for them to have willfully made the game this way. The game changed directions because of their inability and lack of drive to balance the game; E-sports is pretty dang boring when its two teams of the same class/classes duking it out because its literally more of a western stand-off than it is a sporting event.

    E-sports require variation and diversity in builds, characters and skill-sets and this game? Never has and likely never will offer or demand that. Think what you will, but I suggest we walk away from communication with one another. Im not about to conceded to your ludicrous point and you refuse to acknowledge or understand mine, there is a communication barrier and we can't co-exist because frankly Im unable to not come at you over an opinion based on a lie. So respectfully do not reply, let it go and I shall do the same and we will part with this. Or we can continue to do this for the next two weeks and argue; Im leaving that choice entirely up to you but Im not going to be as forthcoming or tolerant going forward.

    You've said it yourself. For many many years now, the main focus of development has been story, meta events, dynamic events, and the occasional fractal. That's pretty much it. But back in the days of Season 1 of the Living World. PvE was getting content every two weeks and all I heard, even back then, were PvPers who felt abandoned by the company. You can write as many paragraphs as you like but the PvE focus has been here since Season 1, when PvE was getting the vast majority of updates.

    Edit: Traditional end game definitions NEVER applied to this game. The game didn't launch with raids. The devs themselves said they considered the three Orr zones end game. Dungeons too were obviously end game, but it wasn't what the devs were talking about, when they talked about the game, at least not by percentage of time. In HoT, zone metas were considered end game and still probably are for most people. Raids and Fractals are the instanced end game, but this game has been focused more on the open world.

    Which simply is why its doomed to not live as long as the competition. If End of dragons doesn't do well I wont be surprised if NCsoft pulls the plug, they've done so to games more successful for less.

    In the 8 years GW2 has been alive it outlived most of its competition ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    Took NCSoft long enough to pull the plug on Wildstar and Aion is still alive with less sales.
    Also they only recently gave Tencent the publishing rights in China.

    Those aren't "most of its competition" though. TERA is still going (unfortunately), WoW is still going much stronger, FFXIV is also going much stronger, BDO pushes GW2 out with its larger daily populations and better player retention, ESO (which is probably GW2s closest "competitor" in terms of combat mechanics and otherwise) is going stronger than GW2 with active population. Runescape, and I mean Oldschool Runescape, holds players better than GW2.

    Not to mention upcoming MMOs are probably going to siphon even more playerbase from GW2. Lost Ark is confirmed for Western release in 2021, it might not have the "lack of a gear treadmill" that GW2 has, but it does have completely equalized PvP arenas which will undoubtedly pull most of whatever remains of the PvP population away from this game.

    So you mentioned 6 still living MMORPGs out of how many MMORPGs that died out while GW2 keeps on living?
    Those games you mentioned aren't "most of its competition". Just the current competition that survived.
    I'm also wondering where you're pulling BDO and ESO population playerbase numbers from, I'm interested how they compare to other games.

    Placing your hope in Lost Ark is funny to see. Do you know which games will pull what remains of the PvP population? Actual PvP games, not Lost Ark.
    And that's without mentioning that Lost Ark has a different target audience than GW2.

    The thing you're forgetting to account for, though, in regards to the "MMORPGs that died while GW2 keeps on living" is that those other MMORPGs also "keep on living". I also never said GW2 is dying, didn't imply it either if you read the rest of the post.

    Also yes, sure, Lost Ark might be aiming for a different target audience than GW2, but they still exist in the same genre...thats like saying WoW and GW2 aren't competitors with each other in the MMORPG genre, which would be wildly inaccurate. Yes its a KR grind MMORPG, yes it has gear treadmill, yes it has top down perspective, but those likely won't be deterrents for players. Or at least not big enough concerns to deter them. Its also presumably being published by Amazon, that marketing endeavor is unlikely to be minimal. So if anything, Lost Arks "target audience" is the typical MMO player...not the "hardcore casual" that GW2 seems to cater to pretty heavily.

    But why do I also say it will probably pull most of whatever remains of the PvP population? Mostly because many likely stick around because they don't have to worry about gear to PvP, which Lost Ark also has. If "actual PvP games" were the only thing that those players were looking for then they would have just simply left already, but give them another option with a system similar to GW2 sPvP and they will probably go to it. Probably not the "top" players, though, considering how they probably enjoy being able to sit in their leaderboard positions with little effort and minimal competition.

    Also I'm curious as to what you mean by "placing my hope in"? To me that sounds like you're assuming that I'm thinking Lost Ark is going to revolutionize the genre, or that it will get me back into MMORPGs, or that it will "kill" GW2. It could be that you just didn't use the right phrasing or I could be wrong but none of that is accurate. For one, no...I don't jump onto hype trains, I'm realistic with my expectations. Its the same reason why I don't believe GW2 is dead or dying, just that its horribly managed, handled and the devs seem like they have a distinct lack of actual passion for this game anymore. Second, I haven't stopped playing MMORPGs, I am playing Destiny 2 right now, I consistently play WoW, and FFXIV is on my list of revisiting sooner rather than later since I can only afford to sub to one of them at a time. Thirdly, I don't even want GW2 to die, I want them to do better, handle it better. I'm not going to fluff their ego, I'm not going to pander to them and feel sorry for them when they get criticism, or adamantly defend them when warranted criticisms are made. I don't discount that its still alive and it still has a population, but I do at the very least recognize that it has issues that I believe ANet needs to resolve, but they have done nothing to resolve them and the game feels like they don't even care, especially with their abysmal approach to communication.

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 16, 2020

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Rukia.4802 said:
    1 recognized (?) pvp mode

    Let's count how much pvp content GW1 got.. with a much smaller budget and team.

    Yep, because GW 1 was designed as a PvP game. Guild Wars 2 wasn't. : Even in Guild Wars 1 developed as time progressed, the updates were more and more PvE. And didn't expect PvE to be as popular as it was, but it was undeniably what ended up driving the game. The evidence is that Anet made Guild Wars 2 about PvE predominantly. You can tell by the number of updates PvE gets by comparison.

    Anet said, before Guild Wars 2 launched that they intentionally didn't talk about PVP for the first year after the announcement to try to break people out of the idea this was a PvP based game. They said this at shows and on panels. The focus of this game was always been PvE from day one. That's why it talked on the official website about the game being a living breathing world. That's why they focused on dynamic events.

    Thats why their steam page DIRECTLY talks about competitive play and that its a competitive game?
    https://gyazo.com/7c04627da02a77ffc38f65d04853cae2

    Sure they mention it. Just like a hotel that has tennis courts might mention them in an ad, but it doesn't make it a tennis hotel. There are four paragrpahs there, and one of them talks about competitive play which obviously from the wording covers both PvP and WvW. They're lumped in together in one paragraph. They don't even get their own seperate paragraph. Looks to me that one of the paragraphis there is about story, one is about dynamic events, one is about combat in general and one paragraph is shared between two completely different types of PvP.

    I don't know a lot of people who would argue at this point that this game is centered on PvP. Just look at the game updates Anet absolutely said what I said they said. That they didn't talk about PvP for the first year to make it clear this wasn't a PvP centric game. Because they had trouble getting people into GW 1 later on because everyone assumed it was a PvP centric game. They've never had the bulk of their devs working on PvP. And I don't know any PvPers who think they have.

    You can believe anything you want, but the evidence doesn't really support what you're implying here.

    Actually it does, you don't need a combat engine or system like they have for PvE. Simple. Dodging was made popular by guild wars 2, sure tera online and a few others tried it but not to the extent this game has. It only shines in Competitive play; Its nice in PvE but most time its stack and spank unless in raids and even then most of the time its stack and spank. The combat engine was built for PvP, E-sports was their plan in HoT and failed due to balance, WvW was their end-game mode with dungeons and fractals as well new maps being the only thing PvE had.

    Ontop of that WvW DIRECTLY effected PvE and vice versa before the mega-servers. The game was built with PvP in mind and a bunch of PvE players began whining because it was the end-game, which was back when everyone claimed it had no end-game. Now end-game PvE exists and its more niche than WvW and it still gets more content Cadence (not saying alot here). Im sorry but the evidence points to end-game anything outside of PvE maps not being the focus, be it fractals, PvP, WvW, Raiding or what have you. The game is made to sell you new maps and mastery's and it has been this way since mid way through S3 of the living world~ And from the looks of it I'd say they are turning course back around to where ALL modes are taken better care of.

    You, as a PvE fiend who sit here and diminish the importance of competitive modes don't understand that there is a big market for PvP in mmo's. And when we go to steam there will be a pretty big fire being burnt because a lot of those people want competition. Just because you don't care/like/want or acknowledge the mode as anything more than a waste of time (guessing based on how you dismiss it) Doesn't mean everyone else does. I personally see raids and strikes, as well fractals as a waste of time as they offer no power increase for the BS that exist within those game modes. And the shenanigans and rude people who exist within them; Id rather those resources be put the work elsewhere but surprise, surprise... new fractal in sep. And fractals aren't even a focus in the game~ And haven't been for a long time.

    This game as never focused on PvP. For years and years and y ears, people in the PvP and WvW community have complained about lack of updates compared to PvE. You can try to spin this any way you like but it's just not the case. From launch, count the updates that affected each, it really is that simple.

    You may have a different opinion but the raised voices of the WvW and PvP community tell a completely different story. So does the raid community for that matter.

    Raids have been abandoned and you'll likely be hard pressed to see another one. PvE end-game is not successful here so HONESTLY looking at what A-net themselves have said, Fractals are the most succesful of the PvE end-game. So outside of living world maps/expansion maps stop developing everything else and focus there, close down those waste of space modes and roll their rewards into those two modes. Cull the player-base of the ones you dont want or care about, and just do more of the same because honestly NONE but Open world PvE have the participation to warrant existence. Even fractals likely don't have enough to really warrant development, how long has it been since we got a new one? We get one this month. How long until the next one?

    It was PvP focused, Go back and look at HoT and look at Core and how they marketed it. WvW and PvP even had their own trailers and they were talked about once they knew what they wanted to do; The combat engine was designed for it. Your opinion is wrong and willfully ignorant and Ill call you on it, Dodge rolling and the like of what we have combat wise is not needed for PvE once so ever and honestly offer WAAAY too many balancing problems for them to have willfully made the game this way. The game changed directions because of their inability and lack of drive to balance the game; E-sports is pretty dang boring when its two teams of the same class/classes duking it out because its literally more of a western stand-off than it is a sporting event.

    E-sports require variation and diversity in builds, characters and skill-sets and this game? Never has and likely never will offer or demand that. Think what you will, but I suggest we walk away from communication with one another. Im not about to conceded to your ludicrous point and you refuse to acknowledge or understand mine, there is a communication barrier and we can't co-exist because frankly Im unable to not come at you over an opinion based on a lie. So respectfully do not reply, let it go and I shall do the same and we will part with this. Or we can continue to do this for the next two weeks and argue; Im leaving that choice entirely up to you but Im not going to be as forthcoming or tolerant going forward.

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Rukia.4802 said:
    1 recognized (?) pvp mode

    Let's count how much pvp content GW1 got.. with a much smaller budget and team.

    Yep, because GW 1 was designed as a PvP game. Guild Wars 2 wasn't. : Even in Guild Wars 1 developed as time progressed, the updates were more and more PvE. And didn't expect PvE to be as popular as it was, but it was undeniably what ended up driving the game. The evidence is that Anet made Guild Wars 2 about PvE predominantly. You can tell by the number of updates PvE gets by comparison.

    Anet said, before Guild Wars 2 launched that they intentionally didn't talk about PVP for the first year after the announcement to try to break people out of the idea this was a PvP based game. They said this at shows and on panels. The focus of this game was always been PvE from day one. That's why it talked on the official website about the game being a living breathing world. That's why they focused on dynamic events.

    Thats why their steam page DIRECTLY talks about competitive play and that its a competitive game?
    https://gyazo.com/7c04627da02a77ffc38f65d04853cae2

    Sure they mention it. Just like a hotel that has tennis courts might mention them in an ad, but it doesn't make it a tennis hotel. There are four paragrpahs there, and one of them talks about competitive play which obviously from the wording covers both PvP and WvW. They're lumped in together in one paragraph. They don't even get their own seperate paragraph. Looks to me that one of the paragraphis there is about story, one is about dynamic events, one is about combat in general and one paragraph is shared between two completely different types of PvP.

    I don't know a lot of people who would argue at this point that this game is centered on PvP. Just look at the game updates Anet absolutely said what I said they said. That they didn't talk about PvP for the first year to make it clear this wasn't a PvP centric game. Because they had trouble getting people into GW 1 later on because everyone assumed it was a PvP centric game. They've never had the bulk of their devs working on PvP. And I don't know any PvPers who think they have.

    You can believe anything you want, but the evidence doesn't really support what you're implying here.

    Actually it does, you don't need a combat engine or system like they have for PvE. Simple. Dodging was made popular by guild wars 2, sure tera online and a few others tried it but not to the extent this game has. It only shines in Competitive play; Its nice in PvE but most time its stack and spank unless in raids and even then most of the time its stack and spank. The combat engine was built for PvP, E-sports was their plan in HoT and failed due to balance, WvW was their end-game mode with dungeons and fractals as well new maps being the only thing PvE had.

    Ontop of that WvW DIRECTLY effected PvE and vice versa before the mega-servers. The game was built with PvP in mind and a bunch of PvE players began whining because it was the end-game, which was back when everyone claimed it had no end-game. Now end-game PvE exists and its more niche than WvW and it still gets more content Cadence (not saying alot here). Im sorry but the evidence points to end-game anything outside of PvE maps not being the focus, be it fractals, PvP, WvW, Raiding or what have you. The game is made to sell you new maps and mastery's and it has been this way since mid way through S3 of the living world~ And from the looks of it I'd say they are turning course back around to where ALL modes are taken better care of.

    You, as a PvE fiend who sit here and diminish the importance of competitive modes don't understand that there is a big market for PvP in mmo's. And when we go to steam there will be a pretty big fire being burnt because a lot of those people want competition. Just because you don't care/like/want or acknowledge the mode as anything more than a waste of time (guessing based on how you dismiss it) Doesn't mean everyone else does. I personally see raids and strikes, as well fractals as a waste of time as they offer no power increase for the BS that exist within those game modes. And the shenanigans and rude people who exist within them; Id rather those resources be put the work elsewhere but surprise, surprise... new fractal in sep. And fractals aren't even a focus in the game~ And haven't been for a long time.

    This game as never focused on PvP. For years and years and y ears, people in the PvP and WvW community have complained about lack of updates compared to PvE. You can try to spin this any way you like but it's just not the case. From launch, count the updates that affected each, it really is that simple.

    You may have a different opinion but the raised voices of the WvW and PvP community tell a completely different story. So does the raid community for that matter.

    Raids have been abandoned and you'll likely be hard pressed to see another one. PvE end-game is not successful here so HONESTLY looking at what A-net themselves have said, Fractals are the most succesful of the PvE end-game. So outside of living world maps/expansion maps stop developing everything else and focus there, close down those waste of space modes and roll their rewards into those two modes. Cull the player-base of the ones you dont want or care about, and just do more of the same because honestly NONE but Open world PvE have the participation to warrant existence. Even fractals likely don't have enough to really warrant development, how long has it been since we got a new one? We get one this month. How long until the next one?

    It was PvP focused, Go back and look at HoT and look at Core and how they marketed it. WvW and PvP even had their own trailers and they were talked about once they knew what they wanted to do; The combat engine was designed for it. Your opinion is wrong and willfully ignorant and Ill call you on it, Dodge rolling and the like of what we have combat wise is not needed for PvE once so ever and honestly offer WAAAY too many balancing problems for them to have willfully made the game this way. The game changed directions because of their inability and lack of drive to balance the game; E-sports is pretty dang boring when its two teams of the same class/classes duking it out because its literally more of a western stand-off than it is a sporting event.

    E-sports require variation and diversity in builds, characters and skill-sets and this game? Never has and likely never will offer or demand that. Think what you will, but I suggest we walk away from communication with one another. Im not about to conceded to your ludicrous point and you refuse to acknowledge or understand mine, there is a communication barrier and we can't co-exist because frankly Im unable to not come at you over an opinion based on a lie. So respectfully do not reply, let it go and I shall do the same and we will part with this. Or we can continue to do this for the next two weeks and argue; Im leaving that choice entirely up to you but Im not going to be as forthcoming or tolerant going forward.

    You've said it yourself. For many many years now, the main focus of development has been story, meta events, dynamic events, and the occasional fractal. That's pretty much it. But back in the days of Season 1 of the Living World. PvE was getting content every two weeks and all I heard, even back then, were PvPers who felt abandoned by the company. You can write as many paragraphs as you like but the PvE focus has been here since Season 1, when PvE was getting the vast majority of updates.

    Edit: Traditional end game definitions NEVER applied to this game. The game didn't launch with raids. The devs themselves said they considered the three Orr zones end game. Dungeons too were obviously end game, but it wasn't what the devs were talking about, when they talked about the game, at least not by percentage of time. In HoT, zone metas were considered end game and still probably are for most people. Raids and Fractals are the instanced end game, but this game has been focused more on the open world.

    Which simply is why its doomed to not live as long as the competition. If End of dragons doesn't do well I wont be surprised if NCsoft pulls the plug, they've done so to games more successful for less.

    In the 8 years GW2 has been alive it outlived most of its competition ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    Took NCSoft long enough to pull the plug on Wildstar and Aion is still alive with less sales.
    Also they only recently gave Tencent the publishing rights in China.

    Those aren't "most of its competition" though. TERA is still going (unfortunately), WoW is still going much stronger, FFXIV is also going much stronger, BDO pushes GW2 out with its larger daily populations and better player retention, ESO (which is probably GW2s closest "competitor" in terms of combat mechanics and otherwise) is going stronger than GW2 with active population. Runescape, and I mean Oldschool Runescape, holds players better than GW2.

    Not to mention upcoming MMOs are probably going to siphon even more playerbase from GW2. Lost Ark is confirmed for Western release in 2021, it might not have the "lack of a gear treadmill" that GW2 has, but it does have completely equalized PvP arenas which will undoubtedly pull most of whatever remains of the PvP population away from this game.

    So you mentioned 6 still living MMORPGs out of how many MMORPGs that died out while GW2 keeps on living?
    Those games you mentioned aren't "most of its competition". Just the current competition that survived.
    I'm also wondering where you're pulling BDO and ESO population playerbase numbers from, I'm interested how they compare to other games.

    Placing your hope in Lost Ark is funny to see. Do you know which games will pull what remains of the PvP population? Actual PvP games, not Lost Ark.
    And that's without mentioning that Lost Ark has a different target audience than GW2.

    The thing you're forgetting to account for, though, in regards to the "MMORPGs that died while GW2 keeps on living" is that those other MMORPGs also "keep on living". I also never said GW2 is dying, didn't imply it either if you read the rest of the post.

    Also yes, sure, Lost Ark might be aiming for a different target audience than GW2, but they still exist in the same genre...thats like saying WoW and GW2 aren't competitors with each other in the MMORPG genre, which would be wildly inaccurate. Yes its a KR grind MMORPG, yes it has gear treadmill, yes it has top down perspective, but those likely won't be deterrents for players. Or at least not big enough concerns to deter them. Its also presumably being published by Amazon, that marketing endeavor is unlikely to be minimal. So if anything, Lost Arks "target audience" is the typical MMO player...not the "hardcore casual" that GW2 seems to cater to pretty heavily.

    But why do I also say it will probably pull most of whatever remains of the PvP population? Mostly because many likely stick around because they don't have to worry about gear to PvP, which Lost Ark also has. If "actual PvP games" were the only thing that those players were looking for then they would have just simply left already, but give them another option with a system similar to GW2 sPvP and they will probably go to it. Probably not the "top" players, though, considering how they probably enjoy being able to sit in their leaderboard positions with little effort and minimal competition.

    Also I'm curious as to what you mean by "placing my hope in"? To me that sounds like you're assuming that I'm thinking Lost Ark is going to revolutionize the genre, or that it will get me back into MMORPGs, or that it will "kill" GW2. It could be that you just didn't use the right phrasing or I could be wrong but none of that is accurate. For one, no...I don't jump onto hype trains, I'm realistic with my expectations. Its the same reason why I don't believe GW2 is dead or dying, just that its horribly managed, handled and the devs seem like they have a distinct lack of actual passion for this game anymore. Second, I haven't stopped playing MMORPGs, I am playing Destiny 2 right now, I consistently play WoW, and FFXIV is on my list of revisiting sooner rather than later since I can only afford to sub to one of them at a time. Thirdly, I don't even want GW2 to die, I want them to do better, handle it better. I'm not going to fluff their ego, I'm not going to pander to them and feel sorry for them when they get criticism, or adamantly defend them when warranted criticisms are made. I don't discount that its still alive and it still has a population, but I do at the very least recognize that it has issues that I believe ANet needs to resolve, but they have done nothing to resolve them and the game feels like they don't even care, especially with their abysmal approach to communication.

    Man you assume a lot of things. I‘ve never said that you‘re saying that GW2 is dying, if you read my post.
    Asymetrical gaming and third person gaming is a huge difference, especially for MMORPGs. Diablo 4 and PoE2 are the biggest competitors for Lost Ark. I bet most GW2 pvp players haven‘t even heard of the game.
    Tells a lot that you‘re speaking of „hardcore casuals“. Hint: GW2‘s average players are just as bad as any average WoW, LoL, BDO, ESO, Rift, PoE, Diablo player. Get off your high horse.

    Lost Arks PvP is so different from GW2 you‘d better compare it to Battlerite.

    For a „horribly managed“ game GW2 survived 8 years just fine, even with an expansion in the horizon. Maybe it isn‘t as badly managed as you think and you‘re just the wrong target audience?

    I also wouldn‘t call Destiny 2 a MMORPG, but i guess the term changed over time to include lobby shooters /shrug

    You have a heart of gold. Don't let them take it from you.

  • KryTiKaL.3125KryTiKaL.3125 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Rukia.4802 said:
    1 recognized (?) pvp mode

    Let's count how much pvp content GW1 got.. with a much smaller budget and team.

    Yep, because GW 1 was designed as a PvP game. Guild Wars 2 wasn't. : Even in Guild Wars 1 developed as time progressed, the updates were more and more PvE. And didn't expect PvE to be as popular as it was, but it was undeniably what ended up driving the game. The evidence is that Anet made Guild Wars 2 about PvE predominantly. You can tell by the number of updates PvE gets by comparison.

    Anet said, before Guild Wars 2 launched that they intentionally didn't talk about PVP for the first year after the announcement to try to break people out of the idea this was a PvP based game. They said this at shows and on panels. The focus of this game was always been PvE from day one. That's why it talked on the official website about the game being a living breathing world. That's why they focused on dynamic events.

    Thats why their steam page DIRECTLY talks about competitive play and that its a competitive game?
    https://gyazo.com/7c04627da02a77ffc38f65d04853cae2

    Sure they mention it. Just like a hotel that has tennis courts might mention them in an ad, but it doesn't make it a tennis hotel. There are four paragrpahs there, and one of them talks about competitive play which obviously from the wording covers both PvP and WvW. They're lumped in together in one paragraph. They don't even get their own seperate paragraph. Looks to me that one of the paragraphis there is about story, one is about dynamic events, one is about combat in general and one paragraph is shared between two completely different types of PvP.

    I don't know a lot of people who would argue at this point that this game is centered on PvP. Just look at the game updates Anet absolutely said what I said they said. That they didn't talk about PvP for the first year to make it clear this wasn't a PvP centric game. Because they had trouble getting people into GW 1 later on because everyone assumed it was a PvP centric game. They've never had the bulk of their devs working on PvP. And I don't know any PvPers who think they have.

    You can believe anything you want, but the evidence doesn't really support what you're implying here.

    Actually it does, you don't need a combat engine or system like they have for PvE. Simple. Dodging was made popular by guild wars 2, sure tera online and a few others tried it but not to the extent this game has. It only shines in Competitive play; Its nice in PvE but most time its stack and spank unless in raids and even then most of the time its stack and spank. The combat engine was built for PvP, E-sports was their plan in HoT and failed due to balance, WvW was their end-game mode with dungeons and fractals as well new maps being the only thing PvE had.

    Ontop of that WvW DIRECTLY effected PvE and vice versa before the mega-servers. The game was built with PvP in mind and a bunch of PvE players began whining because it was the end-game, which was back when everyone claimed it had no end-game. Now end-game PvE exists and its more niche than WvW and it still gets more content Cadence (not saying alot here). Im sorry but the evidence points to end-game anything outside of PvE maps not being the focus, be it fractals, PvP, WvW, Raiding or what have you. The game is made to sell you new maps and mastery's and it has been this way since mid way through S3 of the living world~ And from the looks of it I'd say they are turning course back around to where ALL modes are taken better care of.

    You, as a PvE fiend who sit here and diminish the importance of competitive modes don't understand that there is a big market for PvP in mmo's. And when we go to steam there will be a pretty big fire being burnt because a lot of those people want competition. Just because you don't care/like/want or acknowledge the mode as anything more than a waste of time (guessing based on how you dismiss it) Doesn't mean everyone else does. I personally see raids and strikes, as well fractals as a waste of time as they offer no power increase for the BS that exist within those game modes. And the shenanigans and rude people who exist within them; Id rather those resources be put the work elsewhere but surprise, surprise... new fractal in sep. And fractals aren't even a focus in the game~ And haven't been for a long time.

    This game as never focused on PvP. For years and years and y ears, people in the PvP and WvW community have complained about lack of updates compared to PvE. You can try to spin this any way you like but it's just not the case. From launch, count the updates that affected each, it really is that simple.

    You may have a different opinion but the raised voices of the WvW and PvP community tell a completely different story. So does the raid community for that matter.

    Raids have been abandoned and you'll likely be hard pressed to see another one. PvE end-game is not successful here so HONESTLY looking at what A-net themselves have said, Fractals are the most succesful of the PvE end-game. So outside of living world maps/expansion maps stop developing everything else and focus there, close down those waste of space modes and roll their rewards into those two modes. Cull the player-base of the ones you dont want or care about, and just do more of the same because honestly NONE but Open world PvE have the participation to warrant existence. Even fractals likely don't have enough to really warrant development, how long has it been since we got a new one? We get one this month. How long until the next one?

    It was PvP focused, Go back and look at HoT and look at Core and how they marketed it. WvW and PvP even had their own trailers and they were talked about once they knew what they wanted to do; The combat engine was designed for it. Your opinion is wrong and willfully ignorant and Ill call you on it, Dodge rolling and the like of what we have combat wise is not needed for PvE once so ever and honestly offer WAAAY too many balancing problems for them to have willfully made the game this way. The game changed directions because of their inability and lack of drive to balance the game; E-sports is pretty dang boring when its two teams of the same class/classes duking it out because its literally more of a western stand-off than it is a sporting event.

    E-sports require variation and diversity in builds, characters and skill-sets and this game? Never has and likely never will offer or demand that. Think what you will, but I suggest we walk away from communication with one another. Im not about to conceded to your ludicrous point and you refuse to acknowledge or understand mine, there is a communication barrier and we can't co-exist because frankly Im unable to not come at you over an opinion based on a lie. So respectfully do not reply, let it go and I shall do the same and we will part with this. Or we can continue to do this for the next two weeks and argue; Im leaving that choice entirely up to you but Im not going to be as forthcoming or tolerant going forward.

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Rukia.4802 said:
    1 recognized (?) pvp mode

    Let's count how much pvp content GW1 got.. with a much smaller budget and team.

    Yep, because GW 1 was designed as a PvP game. Guild Wars 2 wasn't. : Even in Guild Wars 1 developed as time progressed, the updates were more and more PvE. And didn't expect PvE to be as popular as it was, but it was undeniably what ended up driving the game. The evidence is that Anet made Guild Wars 2 about PvE predominantly. You can tell by the number of updates PvE gets by comparison.

    Anet said, before Guild Wars 2 launched that they intentionally didn't talk about PVP for the first year after the announcement to try to break people out of the idea this was a PvP based game. They said this at shows and on panels. The focus of this game was always been PvE from day one. That's why it talked on the official website about the game being a living breathing world. That's why they focused on dynamic events.

    Thats why their steam page DIRECTLY talks about competitive play and that its a competitive game?
    https://gyazo.com/7c04627da02a77ffc38f65d04853cae2

    Sure they mention it. Just like a hotel that has tennis courts might mention them in an ad, but it doesn't make it a tennis hotel. There are four paragrpahs there, and one of them talks about competitive play which obviously from the wording covers both PvP and WvW. They're lumped in together in one paragraph. They don't even get their own seperate paragraph. Looks to me that one of the paragraphis there is about story, one is about dynamic events, one is about combat in general and one paragraph is shared between two completely different types of PvP.

    I don't know a lot of people who would argue at this point that this game is centered on PvP. Just look at the game updates Anet absolutely said what I said they said. That they didn't talk about PvP for the first year to make it clear this wasn't a PvP centric game. Because they had trouble getting people into GW 1 later on because everyone assumed it was a PvP centric game. They've never had the bulk of their devs working on PvP. And I don't know any PvPers who think they have.

    You can believe anything you want, but the evidence doesn't really support what you're implying here.

    Actually it does, you don't need a combat engine or system like they have for PvE. Simple. Dodging was made popular by guild wars 2, sure tera online and a few others tried it but not to the extent this game has. It only shines in Competitive play; Its nice in PvE but most time its stack and spank unless in raids and even then most of the time its stack and spank. The combat engine was built for PvP, E-sports was their plan in HoT and failed due to balance, WvW was their end-game mode with dungeons and fractals as well new maps being the only thing PvE had.

    Ontop of that WvW DIRECTLY effected PvE and vice versa before the mega-servers. The game was built with PvP in mind and a bunch of PvE players began whining because it was the end-game, which was back when everyone claimed it had no end-game. Now end-game PvE exists and its more niche than WvW and it still gets more content Cadence (not saying alot here). Im sorry but the evidence points to end-game anything outside of PvE maps not being the focus, be it fractals, PvP, WvW, Raiding or what have you. The game is made to sell you new maps and mastery's and it has been this way since mid way through S3 of the living world~ And from the looks of it I'd say they are turning course back around to where ALL modes are taken better care of.

    You, as a PvE fiend who sit here and diminish the importance of competitive modes don't understand that there is a big market for PvP in mmo's. And when we go to steam there will be a pretty big fire being burnt because a lot of those people want competition. Just because you don't care/like/want or acknowledge the mode as anything more than a waste of time (guessing based on how you dismiss it) Doesn't mean everyone else does. I personally see raids and strikes, as well fractals as a waste of time as they offer no power increase for the BS that exist within those game modes. And the shenanigans and rude people who exist within them; Id rather those resources be put the work elsewhere but surprise, surprise... new fractal in sep. And fractals aren't even a focus in the game~ And haven't been for a long time.

    This game as never focused on PvP. For years and years and y ears, people in the PvP and WvW community have complained about lack of updates compared to PvE. You can try to spin this any way you like but it's just not the case. From launch, count the updates that affected each, it really is that simple.

    You may have a different opinion but the raised voices of the WvW and PvP community tell a completely different story. So does the raid community for that matter.

    Raids have been abandoned and you'll likely be hard pressed to see another one. PvE end-game is not successful here so HONESTLY looking at what A-net themselves have said, Fractals are the most succesful of the PvE end-game. So outside of living world maps/expansion maps stop developing everything else and focus there, close down those waste of space modes and roll their rewards into those two modes. Cull the player-base of the ones you dont want or care about, and just do more of the same because honestly NONE but Open world PvE have the participation to warrant existence. Even fractals likely don't have enough to really warrant development, how long has it been since we got a new one? We get one this month. How long until the next one?

    It was PvP focused, Go back and look at HoT and look at Core and how they marketed it. WvW and PvP even had their own trailers and they were talked about once they knew what they wanted to do; The combat engine was designed for it. Your opinion is wrong and willfully ignorant and Ill call you on it, Dodge rolling and the like of what we have combat wise is not needed for PvE once so ever and honestly offer WAAAY too many balancing problems for them to have willfully made the game this way. The game changed directions because of their inability and lack of drive to balance the game; E-sports is pretty dang boring when its two teams of the same class/classes duking it out because its literally more of a western stand-off than it is a sporting event.

    E-sports require variation and diversity in builds, characters and skill-sets and this game? Never has and likely never will offer or demand that. Think what you will, but I suggest we walk away from communication with one another. Im not about to conceded to your ludicrous point and you refuse to acknowledge or understand mine, there is a communication barrier and we can't co-exist because frankly Im unable to not come at you over an opinion based on a lie. So respectfully do not reply, let it go and I shall do the same and we will part with this. Or we can continue to do this for the next two weeks and argue; Im leaving that choice entirely up to you but Im not going to be as forthcoming or tolerant going forward.

    You've said it yourself. For many many years now, the main focus of development has been story, meta events, dynamic events, and the occasional fractal. That's pretty much it. But back in the days of Season 1 of the Living World. PvE was getting content every two weeks and all I heard, even back then, were PvPers who felt abandoned by the company. You can write as many paragraphs as you like but the PvE focus has been here since Season 1, when PvE was getting the vast majority of updates.

    Edit: Traditional end game definitions NEVER applied to this game. The game didn't launch with raids. The devs themselves said they considered the three Orr zones end game. Dungeons too were obviously end game, but it wasn't what the devs were talking about, when they talked about the game, at least not by percentage of time. In HoT, zone metas were considered end game and still probably are for most people. Raids and Fractals are the instanced end game, but this game has been focused more on the open world.

    Which simply is why its doomed to not live as long as the competition. If End of dragons doesn't do well I wont be surprised if NCsoft pulls the plug, they've done so to games more successful for less.

    In the 8 years GW2 has been alive it outlived most of its competition ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    Took NCSoft long enough to pull the plug on Wildstar and Aion is still alive with less sales.
    Also they only recently gave Tencent the publishing rights in China.

    Those aren't "most of its competition" though. TERA is still going (unfortunately), WoW is still going much stronger, FFXIV is also going much stronger, BDO pushes GW2 out with its larger daily populations and better player retention, ESO (which is probably GW2s closest "competitor" in terms of combat mechanics and otherwise) is going stronger than GW2 with active population. Runescape, and I mean Oldschool Runescape, holds players better than GW2.

    Not to mention upcoming MMOs are probably going to siphon even more playerbase from GW2. Lost Ark is confirmed for Western release in 2021, it might not have the "lack of a gear treadmill" that GW2 has, but it does have completely equalized PvP arenas which will undoubtedly pull most of whatever remains of the PvP population away from this game.

    So you mentioned 6 still living MMORPGs out of how many MMORPGs that died out while GW2 keeps on living?
    Those games you mentioned aren't "most of its competition". Just the current competition that survived.
    I'm also wondering where you're pulling BDO and ESO population playerbase numbers from, I'm interested how they compare to other games.

    Placing your hope in Lost Ark is funny to see. Do you know which games will pull what remains of the PvP population? Actual PvP games, not Lost Ark.
    And that's without mentioning that Lost Ark has a different target audience than GW2.

    The thing you're forgetting to account for, though, in regards to the "MMORPGs that died while GW2 keeps on living" is that those other MMORPGs also "keep on living". I also never said GW2 is dying, didn't imply it either if you read the rest of the post.

    Also yes, sure, Lost Ark might be aiming for a different target audience than GW2, but they still exist in the same genre...thats like saying WoW and GW2 aren't competitors with each other in the MMORPG genre, which would be wildly inaccurate. Yes its a KR grind MMORPG, yes it has gear treadmill, yes it has top down perspective, but those likely won't be deterrents for players. Or at least not big enough concerns to deter them. Its also presumably being published by Amazon, that marketing endeavor is unlikely to be minimal. So if anything, Lost Arks "target audience" is the typical MMO player...not the "hardcore casual" that GW2 seems to cater to pretty heavily.

    But why do I also say it will probably pull most of whatever remains of the PvP population? Mostly because many likely stick around because they don't have to worry about gear to PvP, which Lost Ark also has. If "actual PvP games" were the only thing that those players were looking for then they would have just simply left already, but give them another option with a system similar to GW2 sPvP and they will probably go to it. Probably not the "top" players, though, considering how they probably enjoy being able to sit in their leaderboard positions with little effort and minimal competition.

    Also I'm curious as to what you mean by "placing my hope in"? To me that sounds like you're assuming that I'm thinking Lost Ark is going to revolutionize the genre, or that it will get me back into MMORPGs, or that it will "kill" GW2. It could be that you just didn't use the right phrasing or I could be wrong but none of that is accurate. For one, no...I don't jump onto hype trains, I'm realistic with my expectations. Its the same reason why I don't believe GW2 is dead or dying, just that its horribly managed, handled and the devs seem like they have a distinct lack of actual passion for this game anymore. Second, I haven't stopped playing MMORPGs, I am playing Destiny 2 right now, I consistently play WoW, and FFXIV is on my list of revisiting sooner rather than later since I can only afford to sub to one of them at a time. Thirdly, I don't even want GW2 to die, I want them to do better, handle it better. I'm not going to fluff their ego, I'm not going to pander to them and feel sorry for them when they get criticism, or adamantly defend them when warranted criticisms are made. I don't discount that its still alive and it still has a population, but I do at the very least recognize that it has issues that I believe ANet needs to resolve, but they have done nothing to resolve them and the game feels like they don't even care, especially with their abysmal approach to communication.

    Man you assume a lot of things. I‘ve never said that you‘re saying that GW2 is dying, if you read my post.
    Asymetrical gaming and third person gaming is a huge difference, especially for MMORPGs. Diablo 4 and PoE2 are the biggest competitors for Lost Ark. I bet most GW2 pvp players haven‘t even heard of the game.
    Tells a lot that you‘re speaking of „hardcore casuals“. Hint: GW2‘s average players are just as bad as any average WoW, LoL, BDO, ESO, Rift, PoE, Diablo player. Get off your high horse.

    Lost Arks PvP is so different from GW2 you‘d better compare it to Battlerite.

    For a „horribly managed“ game GW2 survived 8 years just fine, even with an expansion in the horizon. Maybe it isn‘t as badly managed as you think and you‘re just the wrong target audience?

    I also wouldn‘t call Destiny 2 a MMORPG, but i guess the term changed over time to include lobby shooters /shrug

    Thats why I asked what you meant by "placing my hope in". Seemed an odd phrase to use in the context. I also don't think casual players are "bad" players, I'm fine with casuals I have no issues with them existing and I don't even shove my min/max tryhard mentality onto them. Even in the context of "capability" in a game I don't think casual = not capable, they just want and like different things, its also a matter of mentality. A casual doesn't necessarily do what I do in most games that I play, again which is fine, but they are a different kind of player. I said "hardcore casuals" because GW2's casual playerbase is historically, and vehemently, averse to any kind of gearing/character progression that games like WoW, FFXIV, BDO, or otherwise have. Again, this is fine.

    Also GW2 wasn't horribly managed for all of the 8 years, but things over the last 3 and a half years I'd say have been compounding into it becoming more and more of an issue. The game 100% had more of an actual direction and vision before Colin left, but ever since then I honestly think its been all over the place. Also, I've been with the Guild Wars franchise since 2005 when GW1 first came out, and I've stuck with GW2 over the years until very recently. Its still very much in my wheelhouse, but how they execute things and how things have been handled these last few years I just couldn't anymore. Abysmal communication, PvP balance has gotten worse over time, WvW and sPvP have been for the most part neglected, sPvP Ranked and even ATs are mostly a joke and ANet hasn't taken the right steps to remedy that issue, and the shallowness of the content updates along with the system upon system and abandoned map upon abandoned map bloat in PvE, for me it all compounded into me just being done. If I want meaty PvE content, there are other games for that. If I want at least decent MMORPG PvP, there are other games for that. If I want an MMORPG with a good and engaging story, very much so other games for that. If I want a ton of visual customization that I can earn ingame for my character (also including mounts and other cosmetics), again very much so other games for that.

    GW2, for me, just doesn't do it anymore with the direction they have headed. Its unfortunate, its sad, but that doesn't mean these problems don't exist or that they aren't problems just because you and others like the game. Plenty of people can be blinded by their enjoyment of something to the point of not even bothering to acknowledge the faults or the flaws that it might have. Take my "fanboying" over Lost Ark, as some might consider it at least. Yes, I'm excited for the game and to be able to play it soon, but I also am fully aware that its going to be gear grinding and thats not to everyone's liking, there are also time gated lockouts for certain pieces of content, the PvP arena, Ranked, doesn't allow for full team queueing (3v3), being able to participate in the equalized PvP will also still require you to level a character all the way to 50 first, and so on and so on. No game is without faults, no game is perfect, and GW2 is certainly flawed and thats all I have ever endeavored to point out. The game has its issues, its not unreasonable for myself or others to point them out as criticisms and ask for at least communication from the company on it, but they don't even do that.

    Also yes Destiny 2 is an MMORPG, by definition it is. They tried to dodge the term for years with the "shared world shooter" nonsense...but that is what it is. Its an MMORPG.

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 16, 2020

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Rukia.4802 said:
    1 recognized (?) pvp mode

    Let's count how much pvp content GW1 got.. with a much smaller budget and team.

    Yep, because GW 1 was designed as a PvP game. Guild Wars 2 wasn't. : Even in Guild Wars 1 developed as time progressed, the updates were more and more PvE. And didn't expect PvE to be as popular as it was, but it was undeniably what ended up driving the game. The evidence is that Anet made Guild Wars 2 about PvE predominantly. You can tell by the number of updates PvE gets by comparison.

    Anet said, before Guild Wars 2 launched that they intentionally didn't talk about PVP for the first year after the announcement to try to break people out of the idea this was a PvP based game. They said this at shows and on panels. The focus of this game was always been PvE from day one. That's why it talked on the official website about the game being a living breathing world. That's why they focused on dynamic events.

    Thats why their steam page DIRECTLY talks about competitive play and that its a competitive game?
    https://gyazo.com/7c04627da02a77ffc38f65d04853cae2

    Sure they mention it. Just like a hotel that has tennis courts might mention them in an ad, but it doesn't make it a tennis hotel. There are four paragrpahs there, and one of them talks about competitive play which obviously from the wording covers both PvP and WvW. They're lumped in together in one paragraph. They don't even get their own seperate paragraph. Looks to me that one of the paragraphis there is about story, one is about dynamic events, one is about combat in general and one paragraph is shared between two completely different types of PvP.

    I don't know a lot of people who would argue at this point that this game is centered on PvP. Just look at the game updates Anet absolutely said what I said they said. That they didn't talk about PvP for the first year to make it clear this wasn't a PvP centric game. Because they had trouble getting people into GW 1 later on because everyone assumed it was a PvP centric game. They've never had the bulk of their devs working on PvP. And I don't know any PvPers who think they have.

    You can believe anything you want, but the evidence doesn't really support what you're implying here.

    Actually it does, you don't need a combat engine or system like they have for PvE. Simple. Dodging was made popular by guild wars 2, sure tera online and a few others tried it but not to the extent this game has. It only shines in Competitive play; Its nice in PvE but most time its stack and spank unless in raids and even then most of the time its stack and spank. The combat engine was built for PvP, E-sports was their plan in HoT and failed due to balance, WvW was their end-game mode with dungeons and fractals as well new maps being the only thing PvE had.

    Ontop of that WvW DIRECTLY effected PvE and vice versa before the mega-servers. The game was built with PvP in mind and a bunch of PvE players began whining because it was the end-game, which was back when everyone claimed it had no end-game. Now end-game PvE exists and its more niche than WvW and it still gets more content Cadence (not saying alot here). Im sorry but the evidence points to end-game anything outside of PvE maps not being the focus, be it fractals, PvP, WvW, Raiding or what have you. The game is made to sell you new maps and mastery's and it has been this way since mid way through S3 of the living world~ And from the looks of it I'd say they are turning course back around to where ALL modes are taken better care of.

    You, as a PvE fiend who sit here and diminish the importance of competitive modes don't understand that there is a big market for PvP in mmo's. And when we go to steam there will be a pretty big fire being burnt because a lot of those people want competition. Just because you don't care/like/want or acknowledge the mode as anything more than a waste of time (guessing based on how you dismiss it) Doesn't mean everyone else does. I personally see raids and strikes, as well fractals as a waste of time as they offer no power increase for the BS that exist within those game modes. And the shenanigans and rude people who exist within them; Id rather those resources be put the work elsewhere but surprise, surprise... new fractal in sep. And fractals aren't even a focus in the game~ And haven't been for a long time.

    This game as never focused on PvP. For years and years and y ears, people in the PvP and WvW community have complained about lack of updates compared to PvE. You can try to spin this any way you like but it's just not the case. From launch, count the updates that affected each, it really is that simple.

    You may have a different opinion but the raised voices of the WvW and PvP community tell a completely different story. So does the raid community for that matter.

    Raids have been abandoned and you'll likely be hard pressed to see another one. PvE end-game is not successful here so HONESTLY looking at what A-net themselves have said, Fractals are the most succesful of the PvE end-game. So outside of living world maps/expansion maps stop developing everything else and focus there, close down those waste of space modes and roll their rewards into those two modes. Cull the player-base of the ones you dont want or care about, and just do more of the same because honestly NONE but Open world PvE have the participation to warrant existence. Even fractals likely don't have enough to really warrant development, how long has it been since we got a new one? We get one this month. How long until the next one?

    It was PvP focused, Go back and look at HoT and look at Core and how they marketed it. WvW and PvP even had their own trailers and they were talked about once they knew what they wanted to do; The combat engine was designed for it. Your opinion is wrong and willfully ignorant and Ill call you on it, Dodge rolling and the like of what we have combat wise is not needed for PvE once so ever and honestly offer WAAAY too many balancing problems for them to have willfully made the game this way. The game changed directions because of their inability and lack of drive to balance the game; E-sports is pretty dang boring when its two teams of the same class/classes duking it out because its literally more of a western stand-off than it is a sporting event.

    E-sports require variation and diversity in builds, characters and skill-sets and this game? Never has and likely never will offer or demand that. Think what you will, but I suggest we walk away from communication with one another. Im not about to conceded to your ludicrous point and you refuse to acknowledge or understand mine, there is a communication barrier and we can't co-exist because frankly Im unable to not come at you over an opinion based on a lie. So respectfully do not reply, let it go and I shall do the same and we will part with this. Or we can continue to do this for the next two weeks and argue; Im leaving that choice entirely up to you but Im not going to be as forthcoming or tolerant going forward.

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Rukia.4802 said:
    1 recognized (?) pvp mode

    Let's count how much pvp content GW1 got.. with a much smaller budget and team.

    Yep, because GW 1 was designed as a PvP game. Guild Wars 2 wasn't. : Even in Guild Wars 1 developed as time progressed, the updates were more and more PvE. And didn't expect PvE to be as popular as it was, but it was undeniably what ended up driving the game. The evidence is that Anet made Guild Wars 2 about PvE predominantly. You can tell by the number of updates PvE gets by comparison.

    Anet said, before Guild Wars 2 launched that they intentionally didn't talk about PVP for the first year after the announcement to try to break people out of the idea this was a PvP based game. They said this at shows and on panels. The focus of this game was always been PvE from day one. That's why it talked on the official website about the game being a living breathing world. That's why they focused on dynamic events.

    Thats why their steam page DIRECTLY talks about competitive play and that its a competitive game?
    https://gyazo.com/7c04627da02a77ffc38f65d04853cae2

    Sure they mention it. Just like a hotel that has tennis courts might mention them in an ad, but it doesn't make it a tennis hotel. There are four paragrpahs there, and one of them talks about competitive play which obviously from the wording covers both PvP and WvW. They're lumped in together in one paragraph. They don't even get their own seperate paragraph. Looks to me that one of the paragraphis there is about story, one is about dynamic events, one is about combat in general and one paragraph is shared between two completely different types of PvP.

    I don't know a lot of people who would argue at this point that this game is centered on PvP. Just look at the game updates Anet absolutely said what I said they said. That they didn't talk about PvP for the first year to make it clear this wasn't a PvP centric game. Because they had trouble getting people into GW 1 later on because everyone assumed it was a PvP centric game. They've never had the bulk of their devs working on PvP. And I don't know any PvPers who think they have.

    You can believe anything you want, but the evidence doesn't really support what you're implying here.

    Actually it does, you don't need a combat engine or system like they have for PvE. Simple. Dodging was made popular by guild wars 2, sure tera online and a few others tried it but not to the extent this game has. It only shines in Competitive play; Its nice in PvE but most time its stack and spank unless in raids and even then most of the time its stack and spank. The combat engine was built for PvP, E-sports was their plan in HoT and failed due to balance, WvW was their end-game mode with dungeons and fractals as well new maps being the only thing PvE had.

    Ontop of that WvW DIRECTLY effected PvE and vice versa before the mega-servers. The game was built with PvP in mind and a bunch of PvE players began whining because it was the end-game, which was back when everyone claimed it had no end-game. Now end-game PvE exists and its more niche than WvW and it still gets more content Cadence (not saying alot here). Im sorry but the evidence points to end-game anything outside of PvE maps not being the focus, be it fractals, PvP, WvW, Raiding or what have you. The game is made to sell you new maps and mastery's and it has been this way since mid way through S3 of the living world~ And from the looks of it I'd say they are turning course back around to where ALL modes are taken better care of.

    You, as a PvE fiend who sit here and diminish the importance of competitive modes don't understand that there is a big market for PvP in mmo's. And when we go to steam there will be a pretty big fire being burnt because a lot of those people want competition. Just because you don't care/like/want or acknowledge the mode as anything more than a waste of time (guessing based on how you dismiss it) Doesn't mean everyone else does. I personally see raids and strikes, as well fractals as a waste of time as they offer no power increase for the BS that exist within those game modes. And the shenanigans and rude people who exist within them; Id rather those resources be put the work elsewhere but surprise, surprise... new fractal in sep. And fractals aren't even a focus in the game~ And haven't been for a long time.

    This game as never focused on PvP. For years and years and y ears, people in the PvP and WvW community have complained about lack of updates compared to PvE. You can try to spin this any way you like but it's just not the case. From launch, count the updates that affected each, it really is that simple.

    You may have a different opinion but the raised voices of the WvW and PvP community tell a completely different story. So does the raid community for that matter.

    Raids have been abandoned and you'll likely be hard pressed to see another one. PvE end-game is not successful here so HONESTLY looking at what A-net themselves have said, Fractals are the most succesful of the PvE end-game. So outside of living world maps/expansion maps stop developing everything else and focus there, close down those waste of space modes and roll their rewards into those two modes. Cull the player-base of the ones you dont want or care about, and just do more of the same because honestly NONE but Open world PvE have the participation to warrant existence. Even fractals likely don't have enough to really warrant development, how long has it been since we got a new one? We get one this month. How long until the next one?

    It was PvP focused, Go back and look at HoT and look at Core and how they marketed it. WvW and PvP even had their own trailers and they were talked about once they knew what they wanted to do; The combat engine was designed for it. Your opinion is wrong and willfully ignorant and Ill call you on it, Dodge rolling and the like of what we have combat wise is not needed for PvE once so ever and honestly offer WAAAY too many balancing problems for them to have willfully made the game this way. The game changed directions because of their inability and lack of drive to balance the game; E-sports is pretty dang boring when its two teams of the same class/classes duking it out because its literally more of a western stand-off than it is a sporting event.

    E-sports require variation and diversity in builds, characters and skill-sets and this game? Never has and likely never will offer or demand that. Think what you will, but I suggest we walk away from communication with one another. Im not about to conceded to your ludicrous point and you refuse to acknowledge or understand mine, there is a communication barrier and we can't co-exist because frankly Im unable to not come at you over an opinion based on a lie. So respectfully do not reply, let it go and I shall do the same and we will part with this. Or we can continue to do this for the next two weeks and argue; Im leaving that choice entirely up to you but Im not going to be as forthcoming or tolerant going forward.

    You've said it yourself. For many many years now, the main focus of development has been story, meta events, dynamic events, and the occasional fractal. That's pretty much it. But back in the days of Season 1 of the Living World. PvE was getting content every two weeks and all I heard, even back then, were PvPers who felt abandoned by the company. You can write as many paragraphs as you like but the PvE focus has been here since Season 1, when PvE was getting the vast majority of updates.

    Edit: Traditional end game definitions NEVER applied to this game. The game didn't launch with raids. The devs themselves said they considered the three Orr zones end game. Dungeons too were obviously end game, but it wasn't what the devs were talking about, when they talked about the game, at least not by percentage of time. In HoT, zone metas were considered end game and still probably are for most people. Raids and Fractals are the instanced end game, but this game has been focused more on the open world.

    Which simply is why its doomed to not live as long as the competition. If End of dragons doesn't do well I wont be surprised if NCsoft pulls the plug, they've done so to games more successful for less.

    In the 8 years GW2 has been alive it outlived most of its competition ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    Took NCSoft long enough to pull the plug on Wildstar and Aion is still alive with less sales.
    Also they only recently gave Tencent the publishing rights in China.

    Those aren't "most of its competition" though. TERA is still going (unfortunately), WoW is still going much stronger, FFXIV is also going much stronger, BDO pushes GW2 out with its larger daily populations and better player retention, ESO (which is probably GW2s closest "competitor" in terms of combat mechanics and otherwise) is going stronger than GW2 with active population. Runescape, and I mean Oldschool Runescape, holds players better than GW2.

    Not to mention upcoming MMOs are probably going to siphon even more playerbase from GW2. Lost Ark is confirmed for Western release in 2021, it might not have the "lack of a gear treadmill" that GW2 has, but it does have completely equalized PvP arenas which will undoubtedly pull most of whatever remains of the PvP population away from this game.

    So you mentioned 6 still living MMORPGs out of how many MMORPGs that died out while GW2 keeps on living?
    Those games you mentioned aren't "most of its competition". Just the current competition that survived.
    I'm also wondering where you're pulling BDO and ESO population playerbase numbers from, I'm interested how they compare to other games.

    Placing your hope in Lost Ark is funny to see. Do you know which games will pull what remains of the PvP population? Actual PvP games, not Lost Ark.
    And that's without mentioning that Lost Ark has a different target audience than GW2.

    The thing you're forgetting to account for, though, in regards to the "MMORPGs that died while GW2 keeps on living" is that those other MMORPGs also "keep on living". I also never said GW2 is dying, didn't imply it either if you read the rest of the post.

    Also yes, sure, Lost Ark might be aiming for a different target audience than GW2, but they still exist in the same genre...thats like saying WoW and GW2 aren't competitors with each other in the MMORPG genre, which would be wildly inaccurate. Yes its a KR grind MMORPG, yes it has gear treadmill, yes it has top down perspective, but those likely won't be deterrents for players. Or at least not big enough concerns to deter them. Its also presumably being published by Amazon, that marketing endeavor is unlikely to be minimal. So if anything, Lost Arks "target audience" is the typical MMO player...not the "hardcore casual" that GW2 seems to cater to pretty heavily.

    But why do I also say it will probably pull most of whatever remains of the PvP population? Mostly because many likely stick around because they don't have to worry about gear to PvP, which Lost Ark also has. If "actual PvP games" were the only thing that those players were looking for then they would have just simply left already, but give them another option with a system similar to GW2 sPvP and they will probably go to it. Probably not the "top" players, though, considering how they probably enjoy being able to sit in their leaderboard positions with little effort and minimal competition.

    Also I'm curious as to what you mean by "placing my hope in"? To me that sounds like you're assuming that I'm thinking Lost Ark is going to revolutionize the genre, or that it will get me back into MMORPGs, or that it will "kill" GW2. It could be that you just didn't use the right phrasing or I could be wrong but none of that is accurate. For one, no...I don't jump onto hype trains, I'm realistic with my expectations. Its the same reason why I don't believe GW2 is dead or dying, just that its horribly managed, handled and the devs seem like they have a distinct lack of actual passion for this game anymore. Second, I haven't stopped playing MMORPGs, I am playing Destiny 2 right now, I consistently play WoW, and FFXIV is on my list of revisiting sooner rather than later since I can only afford to sub to one of them at a time. Thirdly, I don't even want GW2 to die, I want them to do better, handle it better. I'm not going to fluff their ego, I'm not going to pander to them and feel sorry for them when they get criticism, or adamantly defend them when warranted criticisms are made. I don't discount that its still alive and it still has a population, but I do at the very least recognize that it has issues that I believe ANet needs to resolve, but they have done nothing to resolve them and the game feels like they don't even care, especially with their abysmal approach to communication.

    Man you assume a lot of things. I‘ve never said that you‘re saying that GW2 is dying, if you read my post.
    Asymetrical gaming and third person gaming is a huge difference, especially for MMORPGs. Diablo 4 and PoE2 are the biggest competitors for Lost Ark. I bet most GW2 pvp players haven‘t even heard of the game.
    Tells a lot that you‘re speaking of „hardcore casuals“. Hint: GW2‘s average players are just as bad as any average WoW, LoL, BDO, ESO, Rift, PoE, Diablo player. Get off your high horse.

    Lost Arks PvP is so different from GW2 you‘d better compare it to Battlerite.

    For a „horribly managed“ game GW2 survived 8 years just fine, even with an expansion in the horizon. Maybe it isn‘t as badly managed as you think and you‘re just the wrong target audience?

    I also wouldn‘t call Destiny 2 a MMORPG, but i guess the term changed over time to include lobby shooters /shrug

    Thats why I asked what you meant by "placing my hope in". Seemed an odd phrase to use in the context. I also don't think casual players are "bad" players, I'm fine with casuals I have no issues with them existing and I don't even shove my min/max tryhard mentality onto them. Even in the context of "capability" in a game I don't think casual = not capable, they just want and like different things, its also a matter of mentality. A casual doesn't necessarily do what I do in most games that I play, again which is fine, but they are a different kind of player. I said "hardcore casuals" because GW2's casual playerbase is historically, and vehemently, averse to any kind of gearing/character progression that games like WoW, FFXIV, BDO, or otherwise have. Again, this is fine.

    Also GW2 wasn't horribly managed for all of the 8 years, but things over the last 3 and a half years I'd say have been compounding into it becoming more and more of an issue. The game 100% had more of an actual direction and vision before Colin left, but ever since then I honestly think its been all over the place. Also, I've been with the Guild Wars franchise since 2005 when GW1 first came out, and I've stuck with GW2 over the years until very recently. Its still very much in my wheelhouse, but how they execute things and how things have been handled these last few years I just couldn't anymore. Abysmal communication, PvP balance has gotten worse over time, WvW and sPvP have been for the most part neglected, sPvP Ranked and even ATs are mostly a joke and ANet hasn't taken the right steps to remedy that issue, and the shallowness of the content updates along with the system upon system and abandoned map upon abandoned map bloat in PvE, for me it all compounded into me just being done. If I want meaty PvE content, there are other games for that. If I want at least decent MMORPG PvP, there are other games for that. If I want an MMORPG with a good and engaging story, very much so other games for that. If I want a ton of visual customization that I can earn ingame for my character (also including mounts and other cosmetics), again very much so other games for that.

    GW2, for me, just doesn't do it anymore with the direction they have headed. Its unfortunate, its sad, but that doesn't mean these problems don't exist or that they aren't problems just because you and others like the game. Plenty of people can be blinded by their enjoyment of something to the point of not even bothering to acknowledge the faults or the flaws that it might have. Take my "fanboying" over Lost Ark, as some might consider it at least. Yes, I'm excited for the game and to be able to play it soon, but I also am fully aware that its going to be gear grinding and thats not to everyone's liking, there are also time gated lockouts for certain pieces of content, the PvP arena, Ranked, doesn't allow for full team queueing (3v3), being able to participate in the equalized PvP will also still require you to level a character all the way to 50 first, and so on and so on. No game is without faults, no game is perfect, and GW2 is certainly flawed and thats all I have ever endeavored to point out. The game has its issues, its not unreasonable for myself or others to point them out as criticisms and ask for at least communication from the company on it, but they don't even do that.

    Also yes Destiny 2 is an MMORPG, by definition it is. They tried to dodge the term for years with the "shared world shooter" nonsense...but that is what it is. Its an MMORPG.

    Pretty much every playerbase is like the GW2 one in terms of skill. Being more of a fan of horizontal progressin doesn‘t change that. WoW, BDO, ESO and the rest have pretty much the same average players. Your definition of „casual“ is quite strange, if it means „averse to gearing/character progression“. I guess SL1 runners in Dark Souls are casuals, not much gearing there. Bloodborne has more of an horizontal gearing, aside from weapon upgrades, starter weapons (especially Saw Cleaver) are on par with weapons you later find in the game. I dare say horizontal gear is more skill based, as you can't overpower content with pure gearstats like in WoW or similiar gear-based games.

    I‘ve also been with this game since GW1 Prophecies. The only time I‘ve felt they didn‘t have a clear vision was shortly post HoT. It‘s natural that gamemodes with a small population will be neglected. That‘s not an Anet thing, Riot did the same to Dominion and TT (and Nexus Blitz), even killed them off completely. If you don‘t like the content and can find better gameplay in other games, maybe it isn‘t the game, but that your taste of gameplay doesn‘t match up with Anets vision because you aren‘t the target audience? Anet has the metrics where players spend most of the time, so they create content for those players. Your post makes it clear you aren‘t one of those.

    People can be blinded by their enjoyment the same way they can be blinded by their hate of content that they don‘t enjoy. It‘s so obvious why SPvP, WvW, Dungeons, Raids (and soon most likely Strike Missions) are neglected. Population matters, and the population seems to enjoy the content Anet is creating more than those other modes, even if you don‘t like this direction. Your type of gamemodes/content doesn't seem to pay the bill.

    Destiny 2 is a lobby shooter, not a MMORPG.

    You have a heart of gold. Don't let them take it from you.

  • KryTiKaL.3125KryTiKaL.3125 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Rukia.4802 said:
    1 recognized (?) pvp mode

    Let's count how much pvp content GW1 got.. with a much smaller budget and team.

    Yep, because GW 1 was designed as a PvP game. Guild Wars 2 wasn't. : Even in Guild Wars 1 developed as time progressed, the updates were more and more PvE. And didn't expect PvE to be as popular as it was, but it was undeniably what ended up driving the game. The evidence is that Anet made Guild Wars 2 about PvE predominantly. You can tell by the number of updates PvE gets by comparison.

    Anet said, before Guild Wars 2 launched that they intentionally didn't talk about PVP for the first year after the announcement to try to break people out of the idea this was a PvP based game. They said this at shows and on panels. The focus of this game was always been PvE from day one. That's why it talked on the official website about the game being a living breathing world. That's why they focused on dynamic events.

    Thats why their steam page DIRECTLY talks about competitive play and that its a competitive game?
    https://gyazo.com/7c04627da02a77ffc38f65d04853cae2

    Sure they mention it. Just like a hotel that has tennis courts might mention them in an ad, but it doesn't make it a tennis hotel. There are four paragrpahs there, and one of them talks about competitive play which obviously from the wording covers both PvP and WvW. They're lumped in together in one paragraph. They don't even get their own seperate paragraph. Looks to me that one of the paragraphis there is about story, one is about dynamic events, one is about combat in general and one paragraph is shared between two completely different types of PvP.

    I don't know a lot of people who would argue at this point that this game is centered on PvP. Just look at the game updates Anet absolutely said what I said they said. That they didn't talk about PvP for the first year to make it clear this wasn't a PvP centric game. Because they had trouble getting people into GW 1 later on because everyone assumed it was a PvP centric game. They've never had the bulk of their devs working on PvP. And I don't know any PvPers who think they have.

    You can believe anything you want, but the evidence doesn't really support what you're implying here.

    Actually it does, you don't need a combat engine or system like they have for PvE. Simple. Dodging was made popular by guild wars 2, sure tera online and a few others tried it but not to the extent this game has. It only shines in Competitive play; Its nice in PvE but most time its stack and spank unless in raids and even then most of the time its stack and spank. The combat engine was built for PvP, E-sports was their plan in HoT and failed due to balance, WvW was their end-game mode with dungeons and fractals as well new maps being the only thing PvE had.

    Ontop of that WvW DIRECTLY effected PvE and vice versa before the mega-servers. The game was built with PvP in mind and a bunch of PvE players began whining because it was the end-game, which was back when everyone claimed it had no end-game. Now end-game PvE exists and its more niche than WvW and it still gets more content Cadence (not saying alot here). Im sorry but the evidence points to end-game anything outside of PvE maps not being the focus, be it fractals, PvP, WvW, Raiding or what have you. The game is made to sell you new maps and mastery's and it has been this way since mid way through S3 of the living world~ And from the looks of it I'd say they are turning course back around to where ALL modes are taken better care of.

    You, as a PvE fiend who sit here and diminish the importance of competitive modes don't understand that there is a big market for PvP in mmo's. And when we go to steam there will be a pretty big fire being burnt because a lot of those people want competition. Just because you don't care/like/want or acknowledge the mode as anything more than a waste of time (guessing based on how you dismiss it) Doesn't mean everyone else does. I personally see raids and strikes, as well fractals as a waste of time as they offer no power increase for the BS that exist within those game modes. And the shenanigans and rude people who exist within them; Id rather those resources be put the work elsewhere but surprise, surprise... new fractal in sep. And fractals aren't even a focus in the game~ And haven't been for a long time.

    This game as never focused on PvP. For years and years and y ears, people in the PvP and WvW community have complained about lack of updates compared to PvE. You can try to spin this any way you like but it's just not the case. From launch, count the updates that affected each, it really is that simple.

    You may have a different opinion but the raised voices of the WvW and PvP community tell a completely different story. So does the raid community for that matter.

    Raids have been abandoned and you'll likely be hard pressed to see another one. PvE end-game is not successful here so HONESTLY looking at what A-net themselves have said, Fractals are the most succesful of the PvE end-game. So outside of living world maps/expansion maps stop developing everything else and focus there, close down those waste of space modes and roll their rewards into those two modes. Cull the player-base of the ones you dont want or care about, and just do more of the same because honestly NONE but Open world PvE have the participation to warrant existence. Even fractals likely don't have enough to really warrant development, how long has it been since we got a new one? We get one this month. How long until the next one?

    It was PvP focused, Go back and look at HoT and look at Core and how they marketed it. WvW and PvP even had their own trailers and they were talked about once they knew what they wanted to do; The combat engine was designed for it. Your opinion is wrong and willfully ignorant and Ill call you on it, Dodge rolling and the like of what we have combat wise is not needed for PvE once so ever and honestly offer WAAAY too many balancing problems for them to have willfully made the game this way. The game changed directions because of their inability and lack of drive to balance the game; E-sports is pretty dang boring when its two teams of the same class/classes duking it out because its literally more of a western stand-off than it is a sporting event.

    E-sports require variation and diversity in builds, characters and skill-sets and this game? Never has and likely never will offer or demand that. Think what you will, but I suggest we walk away from communication with one another. Im not about to conceded to your ludicrous point and you refuse to acknowledge or understand mine, there is a communication barrier and we can't co-exist because frankly Im unable to not come at you over an opinion based on a lie. So respectfully do not reply, let it go and I shall do the same and we will part with this. Or we can continue to do this for the next two weeks and argue; Im leaving that choice entirely up to you but Im not going to be as forthcoming or tolerant going forward.

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Rukia.4802 said:
    1 recognized (?) pvp mode

    Let's count how much pvp content GW1 got.. with a much smaller budget and team.

    Yep, because GW 1 was designed as a PvP game. Guild Wars 2 wasn't. : Even in Guild Wars 1 developed as time progressed, the updates were more and more PvE. And didn't expect PvE to be as popular as it was, but it was undeniably what ended up driving the game. The evidence is that Anet made Guild Wars 2 about PvE predominantly. You can tell by the number of updates PvE gets by comparison.

    Anet said, before Guild Wars 2 launched that they intentionally didn't talk about PVP for the first year after the announcement to try to break people out of the idea this was a PvP based game. They said this at shows and on panels. The focus of this game was always been PvE from day one. That's why it talked on the official website about the game being a living breathing world. That's why they focused on dynamic events.

    Thats why their steam page DIRECTLY talks about competitive play and that its a competitive game?
    https://gyazo.com/7c04627da02a77ffc38f65d04853cae2

    Sure they mention it. Just like a hotel that has tennis courts might mention them in an ad, but it doesn't make it a tennis hotel. There are four paragrpahs there, and one of them talks about competitive play which obviously from the wording covers both PvP and WvW. They're lumped in together in one paragraph. They don't even get their own seperate paragraph. Looks to me that one of the paragraphis there is about story, one is about dynamic events, one is about combat in general and one paragraph is shared between two completely different types of PvP.

    I don't know a lot of people who would argue at this point that this game is centered on PvP. Just look at the game updates Anet absolutely said what I said they said. That they didn't talk about PvP for the first year to make it clear this wasn't a PvP centric game. Because they had trouble getting people into GW 1 later on because everyone assumed it was a PvP centric game. They've never had the bulk of their devs working on PvP. And I don't know any PvPers who think they have.

    You can believe anything you want, but the evidence doesn't really support what you're implying here.

    Actually it does, you don't need a combat engine or system like they have for PvE. Simple. Dodging was made popular by guild wars 2, sure tera online and a few others tried it but not to the extent this game has. It only shines in Competitive play; Its nice in PvE but most time its stack and spank unless in raids and even then most of the time its stack and spank. The combat engine was built for PvP, E-sports was their plan in HoT and failed due to balance, WvW was their end-game mode with dungeons and fractals as well new maps being the only thing PvE had.

    Ontop of that WvW DIRECTLY effected PvE and vice versa before the mega-servers. The game was built with PvP in mind and a bunch of PvE players began whining because it was the end-game, which was back when everyone claimed it had no end-game. Now end-game PvE exists and its more niche than WvW and it still gets more content Cadence (not saying alot here). Im sorry but the evidence points to end-game anything outside of PvE maps not being the focus, be it fractals, PvP, WvW, Raiding or what have you. The game is made to sell you new maps and mastery's and it has been this way since mid way through S3 of the living world~ And from the looks of it I'd say they are turning course back around to where ALL modes are taken better care of.

    You, as a PvE fiend who sit here and diminish the importance of competitive modes don't understand that there is a big market for PvP in mmo's. And when we go to steam there will be a pretty big fire being burnt because a lot of those people want competition. Just because you don't care/like/want or acknowledge the mode as anything more than a waste of time (guessing based on how you dismiss it) Doesn't mean everyone else does. I personally see raids and strikes, as well fractals as a waste of time as they offer no power increase for the BS that exist within those game modes. And the shenanigans and rude people who exist within them; Id rather those resources be put the work elsewhere but surprise, surprise... new fractal in sep. And fractals aren't even a focus in the game~ And haven't been for a long time.

    This game as never focused on PvP. For years and years and y ears, people in the PvP and WvW community have complained about lack of updates compared to PvE. You can try to spin this any way you like but it's just not the case. From launch, count the updates that affected each, it really is that simple.

    You may have a different opinion but the raised voices of the WvW and PvP community tell a completely different story. So does the raid community for that matter.

    Raids have been abandoned and you'll likely be hard pressed to see another one. PvE end-game is not successful here so HONESTLY looking at what A-net themselves have said, Fractals are the most succesful of the PvE end-game. So outside of living world maps/expansion maps stop developing everything else and focus there, close down those waste of space modes and roll their rewards into those two modes. Cull the player-base of the ones you dont want or care about, and just do more of the same because honestly NONE but Open world PvE have the participation to warrant existence. Even fractals likely don't have enough to really warrant development, how long has it been since we got a new one? We get one this month. How long until the next one?

    It was PvP focused, Go back and look at HoT and look at Core and how they marketed it. WvW and PvP even had their own trailers and they were talked about once they knew what they wanted to do; The combat engine was designed for it. Your opinion is wrong and willfully ignorant and Ill call you on it, Dodge rolling and the like of what we have combat wise is not needed for PvE once so ever and honestly offer WAAAY too many balancing problems for them to have willfully made the game this way. The game changed directions because of their inability and lack of drive to balance the game; E-sports is pretty dang boring when its two teams of the same class/classes duking it out because its literally more of a western stand-off than it is a sporting event.

    E-sports require variation and diversity in builds, characters and skill-sets and this game? Never has and likely never will offer or demand that. Think what you will, but I suggest we walk away from communication with one another. Im not about to conceded to your ludicrous point and you refuse to acknowledge or understand mine, there is a communication barrier and we can't co-exist because frankly Im unable to not come at you over an opinion based on a lie. So respectfully do not reply, let it go and I shall do the same and we will part with this. Or we can continue to do this for the next two weeks and argue; Im leaving that choice entirely up to you but Im not going to be as forthcoming or tolerant going forward.

    You've said it yourself. For many many years now, the main focus of development has been story, meta events, dynamic events, and the occasional fractal. That's pretty much it. But back in the days of Season 1 of the Living World. PvE was getting content every two weeks and all I heard, even back then, were PvPers who felt abandoned by the company. You can write as many paragraphs as you like but the PvE focus has been here since Season 1, when PvE was getting the vast majority of updates.

    Edit: Traditional end game definitions NEVER applied to this game. The game didn't launch with raids. The devs themselves said they considered the three Orr zones end game. Dungeons too were obviously end game, but it wasn't what the devs were talking about, when they talked about the game, at least not by percentage of time. In HoT, zone metas were considered end game and still probably are for most people. Raids and Fractals are the instanced end game, but this game has been focused more on the open world.

    Which simply is why its doomed to not live as long as the competition. If End of dragons doesn't do well I wont be surprised if NCsoft pulls the plug, they've done so to games more successful for less.

    In the 8 years GW2 has been alive it outlived most of its competition ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    Took NCSoft long enough to pull the plug on Wildstar and Aion is still alive with less sales.
    Also they only recently gave Tencent the publishing rights in China.

    Those aren't "most of its competition" though. TERA is still going (unfortunately), WoW is still going much stronger, FFXIV is also going much stronger, BDO pushes GW2 out with its larger daily populations and better player retention, ESO (which is probably GW2s closest "competitor" in terms of combat mechanics and otherwise) is going stronger than GW2 with active population. Runescape, and I mean Oldschool Runescape, holds players better than GW2.

    Not to mention upcoming MMOs are probably going to siphon even more playerbase from GW2. Lost Ark is confirmed for Western release in 2021, it might not have the "lack of a gear treadmill" that GW2 has, but it does have completely equalized PvP arenas which will undoubtedly pull most of whatever remains of the PvP population away from this game.

    So you mentioned 6 still living MMORPGs out of how many MMORPGs that died out while GW2 keeps on living?
    Those games you mentioned aren't "most of its competition". Just the current competition that survived.
    I'm also wondering where you're pulling BDO and ESO population playerbase numbers from, I'm interested how they compare to other games.

    Placing your hope in Lost Ark is funny to see. Do you know which games will pull what remains of the PvP population? Actual PvP games, not Lost Ark.
    And that's without mentioning that Lost Ark has a different target audience than GW2.

    The thing you're forgetting to account for, though, in regards to the "MMORPGs that died while GW2 keeps on living" is that those other MMORPGs also "keep on living". I also never said GW2 is dying, didn't imply it either if you read the rest of the post.

    Also yes, sure, Lost Ark might be aiming for a different target audience than GW2, but they still exist in the same genre...thats like saying WoW and GW2 aren't competitors with each other in the MMORPG genre, which would be wildly inaccurate. Yes its a KR grind MMORPG, yes it has gear treadmill, yes it has top down perspective, but those likely won't be deterrents for players. Or at least not big enough concerns to deter them. Its also presumably being published by Amazon, that marketing endeavor is unlikely to be minimal. So if anything, Lost Arks "target audience" is the typical MMO player...not the "hardcore casual" that GW2 seems to cater to pretty heavily.

    But why do I also say it will probably pull most of whatever remains of the PvP population? Mostly because many likely stick around because they don't have to worry about gear to PvP, which Lost Ark also has. If "actual PvP games" were the only thing that those players were looking for then they would have just simply left already, but give them another option with a system similar to GW2 sPvP and they will probably go to it. Probably not the "top" players, though, considering how they probably enjoy being able to sit in their leaderboard positions with little effort and minimal competition.

    Also I'm curious as to what you mean by "placing my hope in"? To me that sounds like you're assuming that I'm thinking Lost Ark is going to revolutionize the genre, or that it will get me back into MMORPGs, or that it will "kill" GW2. It could be that you just didn't use the right phrasing or I could be wrong but none of that is accurate. For one, no...I don't jump onto hype trains, I'm realistic with my expectations. Its the same reason why I don't believe GW2 is dead or dying, just that its horribly managed, handled and the devs seem like they have a distinct lack of actual passion for this game anymore. Second, I haven't stopped playing MMORPGs, I am playing Destiny 2 right now, I consistently play WoW, and FFXIV is on my list of revisiting sooner rather than later since I can only afford to sub to one of them at a time. Thirdly, I don't even want GW2 to die, I want them to do better, handle it better. I'm not going to fluff their ego, I'm not going to pander to them and feel sorry for them when they get criticism, or adamantly defend them when warranted criticisms are made. I don't discount that its still alive and it still has a population, but I do at the very least recognize that it has issues that I believe ANet needs to resolve, but they have done nothing to resolve them and the game feels like they don't even care, especially with their abysmal approach to communication.

    Man you assume a lot of things. I‘ve never said that you‘re saying that GW2 is dying, if you read my post.
    Asymetrical gaming and third person gaming is a huge difference, especially for MMORPGs. Diablo 4 and PoE2 are the biggest competitors for Lost Ark. I bet most GW2 pvp players haven‘t even heard of the game.
    Tells a lot that you‘re speaking of „hardcore casuals“. Hint: GW2‘s average players are just as bad as any average WoW, LoL, BDO, ESO, Rift, PoE, Diablo player. Get off your high horse.

    Lost Arks PvP is so different from GW2 you‘d better compare it to Battlerite.

    For a „horribly managed“ game GW2 survived 8 years just fine, even with an expansion in the horizon. Maybe it isn‘t as badly managed as you think and you‘re just the wrong target audience?

    I also wouldn‘t call Destiny 2 a MMORPG, but i guess the term changed over time to include lobby shooters /shrug

    Thats why I asked what you meant by "placing my hope in". Seemed an odd phrase to use in the context. I also don't think casual players are "bad" players, I'm fine with casuals I have no issues with them existing and I don't even shove my min/max tryhard mentality onto them. Even in the context of "capability" in a game I don't think casual = not capable, they just want and like different things, its also a matter of mentality. A casual doesn't necessarily do what I do in most games that I play, again which is fine, but they are a different kind of player. I said "hardcore casuals" because GW2's casual playerbase is historically, and vehemently, averse to any kind of gearing/character progression that games like WoW, FFXIV, BDO, or otherwise have. Again, this is fine.

    Also GW2 wasn't horribly managed for all of the 8 years, but things over the last 3 and a half years I'd say have been compounding into it becoming more and more of an issue. The game 100% had more of an actual direction and vision before Colin left, but ever since then I honestly think its been all over the place. Also, I've been with the Guild Wars franchise since 2005 when GW1 first came out, and I've stuck with GW2 over the years until very recently. Its still very much in my wheelhouse, but how they execute things and how things have been handled these last few years I just couldn't anymore. Abysmal communication, PvP balance has gotten worse over time, WvW and sPvP have been for the most part neglected, sPvP Ranked and even ATs are mostly a joke and ANet hasn't taken the right steps to remedy that issue, and the shallowness of the content updates along with the system upon system and abandoned map upon abandoned map bloat in PvE, for me it all compounded into me just being done. If I want meaty PvE content, there are other games for that. If I want at least decent MMORPG PvP, there are other games for that. If I want an MMORPG with a good and engaging story, very much so other games for that. If I want a ton of visual customization that I can earn ingame for my character (also including mounts and other cosmetics), again very much so other games for that.

    GW2, for me, just doesn't do it anymore with the direction they have headed. Its unfortunate, its sad, but that doesn't mean these problems don't exist or that they aren't problems just because you and others like the game. Plenty of people can be blinded by their enjoyment of something to the point of not even bothering to acknowledge the faults or the flaws that it might have. Take my "fanboying" over Lost Ark, as some might consider it at least. Yes, I'm excited for the game and to be able to play it soon, but I also am fully aware that its going to be gear grinding and thats not to everyone's liking, there are also time gated lockouts for certain pieces of content, the PvP arena, Ranked, doesn't allow for full team queueing (3v3), being able to participate in the equalized PvP will also still require you to level a character all the way to 50 first, and so on and so on. No game is without faults, no game is perfect, and GW2 is certainly flawed and thats all I have ever endeavored to point out. The game has its issues, its not unreasonable for myself or others to point them out as criticisms and ask for at least communication from the company on it, but they don't even do that.

    Also yes Destiny 2 is an MMORPG, by definition it is. They tried to dodge the term for years with the "shared world shooter" nonsense...but that is what it is. Its an MMORPG.

    Pretty much every playerbase is like the GW2 one in terms of skill. Being more of a fan of horizontal progressin doesn‘t change that. WoW, BDO, ESO and the rest have pretty much the same average players. Your definition of „casual“ is quite strange, if it means „averse to gearing/character progression“. I guess SL1 runners in Dark Souls are casuals, not much gearing there. Bloodborne has more of an horizontal gearing, aside from weapon upgrades, starter weapons (especially Saw Cleaver) are on par with weapons you later find in the game. I dare say horizontal gear is more skill based, as you can't overpower content with pure gearstats like in WoW or similiar gear-based games.

    I‘ve also been with this game since GW1 Prophecies. The only time I‘ve felt they didn‘t have a clear vision was shortly post HoT. It‘s natural that gamemodes with a small population will be neglected. That‘s not an Anet thing, Riot did the same to Dominion and TT (and Nexus Blitz), even killed them off completely. If you don‘t like the content and can find better gameplay in other games, maybe it isn‘t the game, but that your taste of gameplay doesn‘t match up with Anets vision because you aren‘t the target audience? Anet has the metrics where players spend most of the time, so they create content for those players. Your post makes it clear you aren‘t one of those.

    People can be blinded by their enjoyment the same way they can be blinded by their hate of content that they don‘t enjoy. It‘s so obvious why SPvP, WvW, Dungeons, Raids (and soon most likely Strike Missions) are neglected. Population matters, and the population seems to enjoy the content Anet is creating more than those other modes, even if you don‘t like this direction. Your type of gamemodes/content doesn't seem to pay the bill.

    Destiny 2 is a lobby shooter, not a MMORPG.

    My definition of casual is not "averse to gearing/character progression" that was how I defined GW2's "hardcore casual" or casual playerbase due to how they react to and view any form of gear progression or gear treadmill, this is specifically in the context of GW2. A casual player in WoW likely doesn't share those same views towards that kind of content or system. Your response seems like a misconstrued interpretation of what I actually said by generalizing it to everything.

    If I didn't agree with you on GW2 not fulfilling my criteria for a game I enjoy then I wouldn't have uninstalled. However, that doesn't negate the issues that do exist outside of personal preference being an issue. ANet still has abysmal policy when it comes to communicating with the community, they still abandon PvE content and just leave it in the game rather than rework it to become more relevant or just remove it to get rid of some of the bloat, PvP/WvW continue to lose population due to neglect, Gem Store skins continue to outweigh most earnable ingame skins in terms of visuals, there are still practically no earnable ingame mount skins, no earnable ingame chair skins, and more and more. If you're okay with the direction they have gone, thats fine, then we just have to agree to disagree, but I wholeheartedly believe that you shouldn't just ignore the issues that do exist with how they have been managing things. They have an expansion on the horizon and their careers page still lists that they are hiring a game director and still have yet to acknowledge that Mike Z left last year and we heard nothing about it or a new game director or anything. That should be concerning to this community.

    If that happened with any other MMORPG, any other game for that matter, you can be sure that if they didn't say anything about that sort of big shift in leadership then their communities would be raising hell. Imagine if, for WoW, Ion Hazzikostas stepped down from his position and nothing was said by him or Blizzard and they still had an open vacancy for that position for months? For some reason this community just lets ANet coast and get away with things as significant as that. Thats why my posts probably seem mostly negative or "hateful" of the company, because unfortunately there are some vocal individuals here that will adamantly and without question defend ANet and not hold them accountable for the mistakes and poor decisions they make.

    Also Destiny 2 is a lobby shooter as well as an MMORPG. They have literally defined it as such back in 2019.

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 17, 2020

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Rukia.4802 said:
    1 recognized (?) pvp mode

    Let's count how much pvp content GW1 got.. with a much smaller budget and team.

    Yep, because GW 1 was designed as a PvP game. Guild Wars 2 wasn't. : Even in Guild Wars 1 developed as time progressed, the updates were more and more PvE. And didn't expect PvE to be as popular as it was, but it was undeniably what ended up driving the game. The evidence is that Anet made Guild Wars 2 about PvE predominantly. You can tell by the number of updates PvE gets by comparison.

    Anet said, before Guild Wars 2 launched that they intentionally didn't talk about PVP for the first year after the announcement to try to break people out of the idea this was a PvP based game. They said this at shows and on panels. The focus of this game was always been PvE from day one. That's why it talked on the official website about the game being a living breathing world. That's why they focused on dynamic events.

    Thats why their steam page DIRECTLY talks about competitive play and that its a competitive game?
    https://gyazo.com/7c04627da02a77ffc38f65d04853cae2

    Sure they mention it. Just like a hotel that has tennis courts might mention them in an ad, but it doesn't make it a tennis hotel. There are four paragrpahs there, and one of them talks about competitive play which obviously from the wording covers both PvP and WvW. They're lumped in together in one paragraph. They don't even get their own seperate paragraph. Looks to me that one of the paragraphis there is about story, one is about dynamic events, one is about combat in general and one paragraph is shared between two completely different types of PvP.

    I don't know a lot of people who would argue at this point that this game is centered on PvP. Just look at the game updates Anet absolutely said what I said they said. That they didn't talk about PvP for the first year to make it clear this wasn't a PvP centric game. Because they had trouble getting people into GW 1 later on because everyone assumed it was a PvP centric game. They've never had the bulk of their devs working on PvP. And I don't know any PvPers who think they have.

    You can believe anything you want, but the evidence doesn't really support what you're implying here.

    Actually it does, you don't need a combat engine or system like they have for PvE. Simple. Dodging was made popular by guild wars 2, sure tera online and a few others tried it but not to the extent this game has. It only shines in Competitive play; Its nice in PvE but most time its stack and spank unless in raids and even then most of the time its stack and spank. The combat engine was built for PvP, E-sports was their plan in HoT and failed due to balance, WvW was their end-game mode with dungeons and fractals as well new maps being the only thing PvE had.

    Ontop of that WvW DIRECTLY effected PvE and vice versa before the mega-servers. The game was built with PvP in mind and a bunch of PvE players began whining because it was the end-game, which was back when everyone claimed it had no end-game. Now end-game PvE exists and its more niche than WvW and it still gets more content Cadence (not saying alot here). Im sorry but the evidence points to end-game anything outside of PvE maps not being the focus, be it fractals, PvP, WvW, Raiding or what have you. The game is made to sell you new maps and mastery's and it has been this way since mid way through S3 of the living world~ And from the looks of it I'd say they are turning course back around to where ALL modes are taken better care of.

    You, as a PvE fiend who sit here and diminish the importance of competitive modes don't understand that there is a big market for PvP in mmo's. And when we go to steam there will be a pretty big fire being burnt because a lot of those people want competition. Just because you don't care/like/want or acknowledge the mode as anything more than a waste of time (guessing based on how you dismiss it) Doesn't mean everyone else does. I personally see raids and strikes, as well fractals as a waste of time as they offer no power increase for the BS that exist within those game modes. And the shenanigans and rude people who exist within them; Id rather those resources be put the work elsewhere but surprise, surprise... new fractal in sep. And fractals aren't even a focus in the game~ And haven't been for a long time.

    This game as never focused on PvP. For years and years and y ears, people in the PvP and WvW community have complained about lack of updates compared to PvE. You can try to spin this any way you like but it's just not the case. From launch, count the updates that affected each, it really is that simple.

    You may have a different opinion but the raised voices of the WvW and PvP community tell a completely different story. So does the raid community for that matter.

    Raids have been abandoned and you'll likely be hard pressed to see another one. PvE end-game is not successful here so HONESTLY looking at what A-net themselves have said, Fractals are the most succesful of the PvE end-game. So outside of living world maps/expansion maps stop developing everything else and focus there, close down those waste of space modes and roll their rewards into those two modes. Cull the player-base of the ones you dont want or care about, and just do more of the same because honestly NONE but Open world PvE have the participation to warrant existence. Even fractals likely don't have enough to really warrant development, how long has it been since we got a new one? We get one this month. How long until the next one?

    It was PvP focused, Go back and look at HoT and look at Core and how they marketed it. WvW and PvP even had their own trailers and they were talked about once they knew what they wanted to do; The combat engine was designed for it. Your opinion is wrong and willfully ignorant and Ill call you on it, Dodge rolling and the like of what we have combat wise is not needed for PvE once so ever and honestly offer WAAAY too many balancing problems for them to have willfully made the game this way. The game changed directions because of their inability and lack of drive to balance the game; E-sports is pretty dang boring when its two teams of the same class/classes duking it out because its literally more of a western stand-off than it is a sporting event.

    E-sports require variation and diversity in builds, characters and skill-sets and this game? Never has and likely never will offer or demand that. Think what you will, but I suggest we walk away from communication with one another. Im not about to conceded to your ludicrous point and you refuse to acknowledge or understand mine, there is a communication barrier and we can't co-exist because frankly Im unable to not come at you over an opinion based on a lie. So respectfully do not reply, let it go and I shall do the same and we will part with this. Or we can continue to do this for the next two weeks and argue; Im leaving that choice entirely up to you but Im not going to be as forthcoming or tolerant going forward.

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Rukia.4802 said:
    1 recognized (?) pvp mode

    Let's count how much pvp content GW1 got.. with a much smaller budget and team.

    Yep, because GW 1 was designed as a PvP game. Guild Wars 2 wasn't. : Even in Guild Wars 1 developed as time progressed, the updates were more and more PvE. And didn't expect PvE to be as popular as it was, but it was undeniably what ended up driving the game. The evidence is that Anet made Guild Wars 2 about PvE predominantly. You can tell by the number of updates PvE gets by comparison.

    Anet said, before Guild Wars 2 launched that they intentionally didn't talk about PVP for the first year after the announcement to try to break people out of the idea this was a PvP based game. They said this at shows and on panels. The focus of this game was always been PvE from day one. That's why it talked on the official website about the game being a living breathing world. That's why they focused on dynamic events.

    Thats why their steam page DIRECTLY talks about competitive play and that its a competitive game?
    https://gyazo.com/7c04627da02a77ffc38f65d04853cae2

    Sure they mention it. Just like a hotel that has tennis courts might mention them in an ad, but it doesn't make it a tennis hotel. There are four paragrpahs there, and one of them talks about competitive play which obviously from the wording covers both PvP and WvW. They're lumped in together in one paragraph. They don't even get their own seperate paragraph. Looks to me that one of the paragraphis there is about story, one is about dynamic events, one is about combat in general and one paragraph is shared between two completely different types of PvP.

    I don't know a lot of people who would argue at this point that this game is centered on PvP. Just look at the game updates Anet absolutely said what I said they said. That they didn't talk about PvP for the first year to make it clear this wasn't a PvP centric game. Because they had trouble getting people into GW 1 later on because everyone assumed it was a PvP centric game. They've never had the bulk of their devs working on PvP. And I don't know any PvPers who think they have.

    You can believe anything you want, but the evidence doesn't really support what you're implying here.

    Actually it does, you don't need a combat engine or system like they have for PvE. Simple. Dodging was made popular by guild wars 2, sure tera online and a few others tried it but not to the extent this game has. It only shines in Competitive play; Its nice in PvE but most time its stack and spank unless in raids and even then most of the time its stack and spank. The combat engine was built for PvP, E-sports was their plan in HoT and failed due to balance, WvW was their end-game mode with dungeons and fractals as well new maps being the only thing PvE had.

    Ontop of that WvW DIRECTLY effected PvE and vice versa before the mega-servers. The game was built with PvP in mind and a bunch of PvE players began whining because it was the end-game, which was back when everyone claimed it had no end-game. Now end-game PvE exists and its more niche than WvW and it still gets more content Cadence (not saying alot here). Im sorry but the evidence points to end-game anything outside of PvE maps not being the focus, be it fractals, PvP, WvW, Raiding or what have you. The game is made to sell you new maps and mastery's and it has been this way since mid way through S3 of the living world~ And from the looks of it I'd say they are turning course back around to where ALL modes are taken better care of.

    You, as a PvE fiend who sit here and diminish the importance of competitive modes don't understand that there is a big market for PvP in mmo's. And when we go to steam there will be a pretty big fire being burnt because a lot of those people want competition. Just because you don't care/like/want or acknowledge the mode as anything more than a waste of time (guessing based on how you dismiss it) Doesn't mean everyone else does. I personally see raids and strikes, as well fractals as a waste of time as they offer no power increase for the BS that exist within those game modes. And the shenanigans and rude people who exist within them; Id rather those resources be put the work elsewhere but surprise, surprise... new fractal in sep. And fractals aren't even a focus in the game~ And haven't been for a long time.

    This game as never focused on PvP. For years and years and y ears, people in the PvP and WvW community have complained about lack of updates compared to PvE. You can try to spin this any way you like but it's just not the case. From launch, count the updates that affected each, it really is that simple.

    You may have a different opinion but the raised voices of the WvW and PvP community tell a completely different story. So does the raid community for that matter.

    Raids have been abandoned and you'll likely be hard pressed to see another one. PvE end-game is not successful here so HONESTLY looking at what A-net themselves have said, Fractals are the most succesful of the PvE end-game. So outside of living world maps/expansion maps stop developing everything else and focus there, close down those waste of space modes and roll their rewards into those two modes. Cull the player-base of the ones you dont want or care about, and just do more of the same because honestly NONE but Open world PvE have the participation to warrant existence. Even fractals likely don't have enough to really warrant development, how long has it been since we got a new one? We get one this month. How long until the next one?

    It was PvP focused, Go back and look at HoT and look at Core and how they marketed it. WvW and PvP even had their own trailers and they were talked about once they knew what they wanted to do; The combat engine was designed for it. Your opinion is wrong and willfully ignorant and Ill call you on it, Dodge rolling and the like of what we have combat wise is not needed for PvE once so ever and honestly offer WAAAY too many balancing problems for them to have willfully made the game this way. The game changed directions because of their inability and lack of drive to balance the game; E-sports is pretty dang boring when its two teams of the same class/classes duking it out because its literally more of a western stand-off than it is a sporting event.

    E-sports require variation and diversity in builds, characters and skill-sets and this game? Never has and likely never will offer or demand that. Think what you will, but I suggest we walk away from communication with one another. Im not about to conceded to your ludicrous point and you refuse to acknowledge or understand mine, there is a communication barrier and we can't co-exist because frankly Im unable to not come at you over an opinion based on a lie. So respectfully do not reply, let it go and I shall do the same and we will part with this. Or we can continue to do this for the next two weeks and argue; Im leaving that choice entirely up to you but Im not going to be as forthcoming or tolerant going forward.

    You've said it yourself. For many many years now, the main focus of development has been story, meta events, dynamic events, and the occasional fractal. That's pretty much it. But back in the days of Season 1 of the Living World. PvE was getting content every two weeks and all I heard, even back then, were PvPers who felt abandoned by the company. You can write as many paragraphs as you like but the PvE focus has been here since Season 1, when PvE was getting the vast majority of updates.

    Edit: Traditional end game definitions NEVER applied to this game. The game didn't launch with raids. The devs themselves said they considered the three Orr zones end game. Dungeons too were obviously end game, but it wasn't what the devs were talking about, when they talked about the game, at least not by percentage of time. In HoT, zone metas were considered end game and still probably are for most people. Raids and Fractals are the instanced end game, but this game has been focused more on the open world.

    Which simply is why its doomed to not live as long as the competition. If End of dragons doesn't do well I wont be surprised if NCsoft pulls the plug, they've done so to games more successful for less.

    In the 8 years GW2 has been alive it outlived most of its competition ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    Took NCSoft long enough to pull the plug on Wildstar and Aion is still alive with less sales.
    Also they only recently gave Tencent the publishing rights in China.

    Those aren't "most of its competition" though. TERA is still going (unfortunately), WoW is still going much stronger, FFXIV is also going much stronger, BDO pushes GW2 out with its larger daily populations and better player retention, ESO (which is probably GW2s closest "competitor" in terms of combat mechanics and otherwise) is going stronger than GW2 with active population. Runescape, and I mean Oldschool Runescape, holds players better than GW2.

    Not to mention upcoming MMOs are probably going to siphon even more playerbase from GW2. Lost Ark is confirmed for Western release in 2021, it might not have the "lack of a gear treadmill" that GW2 has, but it does have completely equalized PvP arenas which will undoubtedly pull most of whatever remains of the PvP population away from this game.

    So you mentioned 6 still living MMORPGs out of how many MMORPGs that died out while GW2 keeps on living?
    Those games you mentioned aren't "most of its competition". Just the current competition that survived.
    I'm also wondering where you're pulling BDO and ESO population playerbase numbers from, I'm interested how they compare to other games.

    Placing your hope in Lost Ark is funny to see. Do you know which games will pull what remains of the PvP population? Actual PvP games, not Lost Ark.
    And that's without mentioning that Lost Ark has a different target audience than GW2.

    The thing you're forgetting to account for, though, in regards to the "MMORPGs that died while GW2 keeps on living" is that those other MMORPGs also "keep on living". I also never said GW2 is dying, didn't imply it either if you read the rest of the post.

    Also yes, sure, Lost Ark might be aiming for a different target audience than GW2, but they still exist in the same genre...thats like saying WoW and GW2 aren't competitors with each other in the MMORPG genre, which would be wildly inaccurate. Yes its a KR grind MMORPG, yes it has gear treadmill, yes it has top down perspective, but those likely won't be deterrents for players. Or at least not big enough concerns to deter them. Its also presumably being published by Amazon, that marketing endeavor is unlikely to be minimal. So if anything, Lost Arks "target audience" is the typical MMO player...not the "hardcore casual" that GW2 seems to cater to pretty heavily.

    But why do I also say it will probably pull most of whatever remains of the PvP population? Mostly because many likely stick around because they don't have to worry about gear to PvP, which Lost Ark also has. If "actual PvP games" were the only thing that those players were looking for then they would have just simply left already, but give them another option with a system similar to GW2 sPvP and they will probably go to it. Probably not the "top" players, though, considering how they probably enjoy being able to sit in their leaderboard positions with little effort and minimal competition.

    Also I'm curious as to what you mean by "placing my hope in"? To me that sounds like you're assuming that I'm thinking Lost Ark is going to revolutionize the genre, or that it will get me back into MMORPGs, or that it will "kill" GW2. It could be that you just didn't use the right phrasing or I could be wrong but none of that is accurate. For one, no...I don't jump onto hype trains, I'm realistic with my expectations. Its the same reason why I don't believe GW2 is dead or dying, just that its horribly managed, handled and the devs seem like they have a distinct lack of actual passion for this game anymore. Second, I haven't stopped playing MMORPGs, I am playing Destiny 2 right now, I consistently play WoW, and FFXIV is on my list of revisiting sooner rather than later since I can only afford to sub to one of them at a time. Thirdly, I don't even want GW2 to die, I want them to do better, handle it better. I'm not going to fluff their ego, I'm not going to pander to them and feel sorry for them when they get criticism, or adamantly defend them when warranted criticisms are made. I don't discount that its still alive and it still has a population, but I do at the very least recognize that it has issues that I believe ANet needs to resolve, but they have done nothing to resolve them and the game feels like they don't even care, especially with their abysmal approach to communication.

    Man you assume a lot of things. I‘ve never said that you‘re saying that GW2 is dying, if you read my post.
    Asymetrical gaming and third person gaming is a huge difference, especially for MMORPGs. Diablo 4 and PoE2 are the biggest competitors for Lost Ark. I bet most GW2 pvp players haven‘t even heard of the game.
    Tells a lot that you‘re speaking of „hardcore casuals“. Hint: GW2‘s average players are just as bad as any average WoW, LoL, BDO, ESO, Rift, PoE, Diablo player. Get off your high horse.

    Lost Arks PvP is so different from GW2 you‘d better compare it to Battlerite.

    For a „horribly managed“ game GW2 survived 8 years just fine, even with an expansion in the horizon. Maybe it isn‘t as badly managed as you think and you‘re just the wrong target audience?

    I also wouldn‘t call Destiny 2 a MMORPG, but i guess the term changed over time to include lobby shooters /shrug

    Thats why I asked what you meant by "placing my hope in". Seemed an odd phrase to use in the context. I also don't think casual players are "bad" players, I'm fine with casuals I have no issues with them existing and I don't even shove my min/max tryhard mentality onto them. Even in the context of "capability" in a game I don't think casual = not capable, they just want and like different things, its also a matter of mentality. A casual doesn't necessarily do what I do in most games that I play, again which is fine, but they are a different kind of player. I said "hardcore casuals" because GW2's casual playerbase is historically, and vehemently, averse to any kind of gearing/character progression that games like WoW, FFXIV, BDO, or otherwise have. Again, this is fine.

    Also GW2 wasn't horribly managed for all of the 8 years, but things over the last 3 and a half years I'd say have been compounding into it becoming more and more of an issue. The game 100% had more of an actual direction and vision before Colin left, but ever since then I honestly think its been all over the place. Also, I've been with the Guild Wars franchise since 2005 when GW1 first came out, and I've stuck with GW2 over the years until very recently. Its still very much in my wheelhouse, but how they execute things and how things have been handled these last few years I just couldn't anymore. Abysmal communication, PvP balance has gotten worse over time, WvW and sPvP have been for the most part neglected, sPvP Ranked and even ATs are mostly a joke and ANet hasn't taken the right steps to remedy that issue, and the shallowness of the content updates along with the system upon system and abandoned map upon abandoned map bloat in PvE, for me it all compounded into me just being done. If I want meaty PvE content, there are other games for that. If I want at least decent MMORPG PvP, there are other games for that. If I want an MMORPG with a good and engaging story, very much so other games for that. If I want a ton of visual customization that I can earn ingame for my character (also including mounts and other cosmetics), again very much so other games for that.

    GW2, for me, just doesn't do it anymore with the direction they have headed. Its unfortunate, its sad, but that doesn't mean these problems don't exist or that they aren't problems just because you and others like the game. Plenty of people can be blinded by their enjoyment of something to the point of not even bothering to acknowledge the faults or the flaws that it might have. Take my "fanboying" over Lost Ark, as some might consider it at least. Yes, I'm excited for the game and to be able to play it soon, but I also am fully aware that its going to be gear grinding and thats not to everyone's liking, there are also time gated lockouts for certain pieces of content, the PvP arena, Ranked, doesn't allow for full team queueing (3v3), being able to participate in the equalized PvP will also still require you to level a character all the way to 50 first, and so on and so on. No game is without faults, no game is perfect, and GW2 is certainly flawed and thats all I have ever endeavored to point out. The game has its issues, its not unreasonable for myself or others to point them out as criticisms and ask for at least communication from the company on it, but they don't even do that.

    Also yes Destiny 2 is an MMORPG, by definition it is. They tried to dodge the term for years with the "shared world shooter" nonsense...but that is what it is. Its an MMORPG.

    Pretty much every playerbase is like the GW2 one in terms of skill. Being more of a fan of horizontal progressin doesn‘t change that. WoW, BDO, ESO and the rest have pretty much the same average players. Your definition of „casual“ is quite strange, if it means „averse to gearing/character progression“. I guess SL1 runners in Dark Souls are casuals, not much gearing there. Bloodborne has more of an horizontal gearing, aside from weapon upgrades, starter weapons (especially Saw Cleaver) are on par with weapons you later find in the game. I dare say horizontal gear is more skill based, as you can't overpower content with pure gearstats like in WoW or similiar gear-based games.

    I‘ve also been with this game since GW1 Prophecies. The only time I‘ve felt they didn‘t have a clear vision was shortly post HoT. It‘s natural that gamemodes with a small population will be neglected. That‘s not an Anet thing, Riot did the same to Dominion and TT (and Nexus Blitz), even killed them off completely. If you don‘t like the content and can find better gameplay in other games, maybe it isn‘t the game, but that your taste of gameplay doesn‘t match up with Anets vision because you aren‘t the target audience? Anet has the metrics where players spend most of the time, so they create content for those players. Your post makes it clear you aren‘t one of those.

    People can be blinded by their enjoyment the same way they can be blinded by their hate of content that they don‘t enjoy. It‘s so obvious why SPvP, WvW, Dungeons, Raids (and soon most likely Strike Missions) are neglected. Population matters, and the population seems to enjoy the content Anet is creating more than those other modes, even if you don‘t like this direction. Your type of gamemodes/content doesn't seem to pay the bill.

    Destiny 2 is a lobby shooter, not a MMORPG.

    My definition of casual is not "averse to gearing/character progression" that was how I defined GW2's "hardcore casual" or casual playerbase due to how they react to and view any form of gear progression or gear treadmill, this is specifically in the context of GW2. A casual player in WoW likely doesn't share those same views towards that kind of content or system. Your response seems like a misconstrued interpretation of what I actually said by generalizing it to everything.

    If I didn't agree with you on GW2 not fulfilling my criteria for a game I enjoy then I wouldn't have uninstalled. However, that doesn't negate the issues that do exist outside of personal preference being an issue. ANet still has abysmal policy when it comes to communicating with the community, they still abandon PvE content and just leave it in the game rather than rework it to become more relevant or just remove it to get rid of some of the bloat, PvP/WvW continue to lose population due to neglect, Gem Store skins continue to outweigh most earnable ingame skins in terms of visuals, there are still practically no earnable ingame mount skins, no earnable ingame chair skins, and more and more. If you're okay with the direction they have gone, thats fine, then we just have to agree to disagree, but I wholeheartedly believe that you shouldn't just ignore the issues that do exist with how they have been managing things. They have an expansion on the horizon and their careers page still lists that they are hiring a game director and still have yet to acknowledge that Mike Z left last year and we heard nothing about it or a new game director or anything. That should be concerning to this community.

    If that happened with any other MMORPG, any other game for that matter, you can be sure that if they didn't say anything about that sort of big shift in leadership then their communities would be raising hell. Imagine if, for WoW, Ion Hazzikostas stepped down from his position and nothing was said by him or Blizzard and they still had an open vacancy for that position for months? For some reason this community just lets ANet coast and get away with things as significant as that. Thats why my posts probably seem mostly negative or "hateful" of the company, because unfortunately there are some vocal individuals here that will adamantly and without question defend ANet and not hold them accountable for the mistakes and poor decisions they make.

    Also Destiny 2 is a lobby shooter as well as an MMORPG. They have literally defined it as such back in 2019.

    Ah, so you're changing the definition of casual how you please. That means I don't have to pay attention to your definitions, since they are biased and mean nothing then.
    Big shocker that a GW2 player prefers horizontal progression. Horizontal progression has been here since GW1. It's a design choice that attracts players.
    If I want PvP out of a game, I'm not going to play a PvE game, or are those PvE people in a PvE game casual for their averse reaction if you want to introduce PvP?
    If I play a car racing game I'm not suddenly going to call those people "casual" because they are averse to use boats in a game designed around cars. Your definition of casual here is completely arbitrary and nonsensical.

    So you'd prefer it if Anet just simply did it the Riot way? Remove gamemodes to get rid of the bloat? No thank you. PvP/WvW will continue to be neglected because they lack players, just like Dominion and TT did. I mean, do you still see people use Garrisons in WoW? Every old raid and dungeon in WoW could be classified as "bloat". Removing them would still be a mistake. Anet aren't the first ones that abandon content, and they won't be the last.

    Yeah, they have an expansion on the horizon with a plan. Why should not having news about a game director be concerning to this community when content still steadily releases? Because you said so? You may care, but I bet most do not as long as the game keeps releasing content, which it does.

    Ah yes, the community uproars that matter. The scandals at Riot sure did a lot to hurt LoL! What? No one cares about the Hearthstone controversy anymore? Hell, I'd have to look up most game directors of the games I play. You may not like it, but I bet most don't care about stuff like that, they just want to play a good game. It's really strange how there's so many vocal individuals here that will keep on hating on the game for reasons that don't actually matter, years after they've uninstalled. It's like Anet is living in their head rent free.

    Destiny 2 is a lobby shooter, not a MMORPG. Might as well call Battlefield and every BR out there a MMO.

    So yeah, I agree to disagree with most of your points as they seem to stem from not being part of the target audience and personal bias.

    You have a heart of gold. Don't let them take it from you.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 17, 2020

    @Rukia.4802 said:
    Now lets look at GW2, where you (insanely) claim that it was designed purely as a pve game and never took pvp seriously. Oh boy, I guess you weren't around when ANet really pushed legitimate e-sports with spvp. They tried hard, and failed miserably. The pvp just wasn't interesting or fun to watch, much less play.

    That doesn't invalidate the claim he has. The hilarious part is where you provide EVIDENCE the claim is sensible. Insane indeed.

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    uh... gw2 is obviously a pve game. the very damage system is 100% made for grinding down millions of hp, not balanced pvp game play. all the updates and focus is pve. its the most obvious thing in the world.

    This guy gets it ... because frankly, it's not too difficult to make a PVP game because good PVP games are all about player ability and not differences in weapons/skills. If PVP was the primary focus here, it WOULD be good because the dissatisfying element for PVP in this game is EXACTLY the differences in weapons/skills.

    If you're on a highway and roadrunner goes "beep beep"
    Just step aside or you might end up in a heap

  • KryTiKaL.3125KryTiKaL.3125 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Rukia.4802 said:
    1 recognized (?) pvp mode

    Let's count how much pvp content GW1 got.. with a much smaller budget and team.

    Yep, because GW 1 was designed as a PvP game. Guild Wars 2 wasn't. : Even in Guild Wars 1 developed as time progressed, the updates were more and more PvE. And didn't expect PvE to be as popular as it was, but it was undeniably what ended up driving the game. The evidence is that Anet made Guild Wars 2 about PvE predominantly. You can tell by the number of updates PvE gets by comparison.

    Anet said, before Guild Wars 2 launched that they intentionally didn't talk about PVP for the first year after the announcement to try to break people out of the idea this was a PvP based game. They said this at shows and on panels. The focus of this game was always been PvE from day one. That's why it talked on the official website about the game being a living breathing world. That's why they focused on dynamic events.

    Thats why their steam page DIRECTLY talks about competitive play and that its a competitive game?
    https://gyazo.com/7c04627da02a77ffc38f65d04853cae2

    Sure they mention it. Just like a hotel that has tennis courts might mention them in an ad, but it doesn't make it a tennis hotel. There are four paragrpahs there, and one of them talks about competitive play which obviously from the wording covers both PvP and WvW. They're lumped in together in one paragraph. They don't even get their own seperate paragraph. Looks to me that one of the paragraphis there is about story, one is about dynamic events, one is about combat in general and one paragraph is shared between two completely different types of PvP.

    I don't know a lot of people who would argue at this point that this game is centered on PvP. Just look at the game updates Anet absolutely said what I said they said. That they didn't talk about PvP for the first year to make it clear this wasn't a PvP centric game. Because they had trouble getting people into GW 1 later on because everyone assumed it was a PvP centric game. They've never had the bulk of their devs working on PvP. And I don't know any PvPers who think they have.

    You can believe anything you want, but the evidence doesn't really support what you're implying here.

    Actually it does, you don't need a combat engine or system like they have for PvE. Simple. Dodging was made popular by guild wars 2, sure tera online and a few others tried it but not to the extent this game has. It only shines in Competitive play; Its nice in PvE but most time its stack and spank unless in raids and even then most of the time its stack and spank. The combat engine was built for PvP, E-sports was their plan in HoT and failed due to balance, WvW was their end-game mode with dungeons and fractals as well new maps being the only thing PvE had.

    Ontop of that WvW DIRECTLY effected PvE and vice versa before the mega-servers. The game was built with PvP in mind and a bunch of PvE players began whining because it was the end-game, which was back when everyone claimed it had no end-game. Now end-game PvE exists and its more niche than WvW and it still gets more content Cadence (not saying alot here). Im sorry but the evidence points to end-game anything outside of PvE maps not being the focus, be it fractals, PvP, WvW, Raiding or what have you. The game is made to sell you new maps and mastery's and it has been this way since mid way through S3 of the living world~ And from the looks of it I'd say they are turning course back around to where ALL modes are taken better care of.

    You, as a PvE fiend who sit here and diminish the importance of competitive modes don't understand that there is a big market for PvP in mmo's. And when we go to steam there will be a pretty big fire being burnt because a lot of those people want competition. Just because you don't care/like/want or acknowledge the mode as anything more than a waste of time (guessing based on how you dismiss it) Doesn't mean everyone else does. I personally see raids and strikes, as well fractals as a waste of time as they offer no power increase for the BS that exist within those game modes. And the shenanigans and rude people who exist within them; Id rather those resources be put the work elsewhere but surprise, surprise... new fractal in sep. And fractals aren't even a focus in the game~ And haven't been for a long time.

    This game as never focused on PvP. For years and years and y ears, people in the PvP and WvW community have complained about lack of updates compared to PvE. You can try to spin this any way you like but it's just not the case. From launch, count the updates that affected each, it really is that simple.

    You may have a different opinion but the raised voices of the WvW and PvP community tell a completely different story. So does the raid community for that matter.

    Raids have been abandoned and you'll likely be hard pressed to see another one. PvE end-game is not successful here so HONESTLY looking at what A-net themselves have said, Fractals are the most succesful of the PvE end-game. So outside of living world maps/expansion maps stop developing everything else and focus there, close down those waste of space modes and roll their rewards into those two modes. Cull the player-base of the ones you dont want or care about, and just do more of the same because honestly NONE but Open world PvE have the participation to warrant existence. Even fractals likely don't have enough to really warrant development, how long has it been since we got a new one? We get one this month. How long until the next one?

    It was PvP focused, Go back and look at HoT and look at Core and how they marketed it. WvW and PvP even had their own trailers and they were talked about once they knew what they wanted to do; The combat engine was designed for it. Your opinion is wrong and willfully ignorant and Ill call you on it, Dodge rolling and the like of what we have combat wise is not needed for PvE once so ever and honestly offer WAAAY too many balancing problems for them to have willfully made the game this way. The game changed directions because of their inability and lack of drive to balance the game; E-sports is pretty dang boring when its two teams of the same class/classes duking it out because its literally more of a western stand-off than it is a sporting event.

    E-sports require variation and diversity in builds, characters and skill-sets and this game? Never has and likely never will offer or demand that. Think what you will, but I suggest we walk away from communication with one another. Im not about to conceded to your ludicrous point and you refuse to acknowledge or understand mine, there is a communication barrier and we can't co-exist because frankly Im unable to not come at you over an opinion based on a lie. So respectfully do not reply, let it go and I shall do the same and we will part with this. Or we can continue to do this for the next two weeks and argue; Im leaving that choice entirely up to you but Im not going to be as forthcoming or tolerant going forward.

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Rukia.4802 said:
    1 recognized (?) pvp mode

    Let's count how much pvp content GW1 got.. with a much smaller budget and team.

    Yep, because GW 1 was designed as a PvP game. Guild Wars 2 wasn't. : Even in Guild Wars 1 developed as time progressed, the updates were more and more PvE. And didn't expect PvE to be as popular as it was, but it was undeniably what ended up driving the game. The evidence is that Anet made Guild Wars 2 about PvE predominantly. You can tell by the number of updates PvE gets by comparison.

    Anet said, before Guild Wars 2 launched that they intentionally didn't talk about PVP for the first year after the announcement to try to break people out of the idea this was a PvP based game. They said this at shows and on panels. The focus of this game was always been PvE from day one. That's why it talked on the official website about the game being a living breathing world. That's why they focused on dynamic events.

    Thats why their steam page DIRECTLY talks about competitive play and that its a competitive game?
    https://gyazo.com/7c04627da02a77ffc38f65d04853cae2

    Sure they mention it. Just like a hotel that has tennis courts might mention them in an ad, but it doesn't make it a tennis hotel. There are four paragrpahs there, and one of them talks about competitive play which obviously from the wording covers both PvP and WvW. They're lumped in together in one paragraph. They don't even get their own seperate paragraph. Looks to me that one of the paragraphis there is about story, one is about dynamic events, one is about combat in general and one paragraph is shared between two completely different types of PvP.

    I don't know a lot of people who would argue at this point that this game is centered on PvP. Just look at the game updates Anet absolutely said what I said they said. That they didn't talk about PvP for the first year to make it clear this wasn't a PvP centric game. Because they had trouble getting people into GW 1 later on because everyone assumed it was a PvP centric game. They've never had the bulk of their devs working on PvP. And I don't know any PvPers who think they have.

    You can believe anything you want, but the evidence doesn't really support what you're implying here.

    Actually it does, you don't need a combat engine or system like they have for PvE. Simple. Dodging was made popular by guild wars 2, sure tera online and a few others tried it but not to the extent this game has. It only shines in Competitive play; Its nice in PvE but most time its stack and spank unless in raids and even then most of the time its stack and spank. The combat engine was built for PvP, E-sports was their plan in HoT and failed due to balance, WvW was their end-game mode with dungeons and fractals as well new maps being the only thing PvE had.

    Ontop of that WvW DIRECTLY effected PvE and vice versa before the mega-servers. The game was built with PvP in mind and a bunch of PvE players began whining because it was the end-game, which was back when everyone claimed it had no end-game. Now end-game PvE exists and its more niche than WvW and it still gets more content Cadence (not saying alot here). Im sorry but the evidence points to end-game anything outside of PvE maps not being the focus, be it fractals, PvP, WvW, Raiding or what have you. The game is made to sell you new maps and mastery's and it has been this way since mid way through S3 of the living world~ And from the looks of it I'd say they are turning course back around to where ALL modes are taken better care of.

    You, as a PvE fiend who sit here and diminish the importance of competitive modes don't understand that there is a big market for PvP in mmo's. And when we go to steam there will be a pretty big fire being burnt because a lot of those people want competition. Just because you don't care/like/want or acknowledge the mode as anything more than a waste of time (guessing based on how you dismiss it) Doesn't mean everyone else does. I personally see raids and strikes, as well fractals as a waste of time as they offer no power increase for the BS that exist within those game modes. And the shenanigans and rude people who exist within them; Id rather those resources be put the work elsewhere but surprise, surprise... new fractal in sep. And fractals aren't even a focus in the game~ And haven't been for a long time.

    This game as never focused on PvP. For years and years and y ears, people in the PvP and WvW community have complained about lack of updates compared to PvE. You can try to spin this any way you like but it's just not the case. From launch, count the updates that affected each, it really is that simple.

    You may have a different opinion but the raised voices of the WvW and PvP community tell a completely different story. So does the raid community for that matter.

    Raids have been abandoned and you'll likely be hard pressed to see another one. PvE end-game is not successful here so HONESTLY looking at what A-net themselves have said, Fractals are the most succesful of the PvE end-game. So outside of living world maps/expansion maps stop developing everything else and focus there, close down those waste of space modes and roll their rewards into those two modes. Cull the player-base of the ones you dont want or care about, and just do more of the same because honestly NONE but Open world PvE have the participation to warrant existence. Even fractals likely don't have enough to really warrant development, how long has it been since we got a new one? We get one this month. How long until the next one?

    It was PvP focused, Go back and look at HoT and look at Core and how they marketed it. WvW and PvP even had their own trailers and they were talked about once they knew what they wanted to do; The combat engine was designed for it. Your opinion is wrong and willfully ignorant and Ill call you on it, Dodge rolling and the like of what we have combat wise is not needed for PvE once so ever and honestly offer WAAAY too many balancing problems for them to have willfully made the game this way. The game changed directions because of their inability and lack of drive to balance the game; E-sports is pretty dang boring when its two teams of the same class/classes duking it out because its literally more of a western stand-off than it is a sporting event.

    E-sports require variation and diversity in builds, characters and skill-sets and this game? Never has and likely never will offer or demand that. Think what you will, but I suggest we walk away from communication with one another. Im not about to conceded to your ludicrous point and you refuse to acknowledge or understand mine, there is a communication barrier and we can't co-exist because frankly Im unable to not come at you over an opinion based on a lie. So respectfully do not reply, let it go and I shall do the same and we will part with this. Or we can continue to do this for the next two weeks and argue; Im leaving that choice entirely up to you but Im not going to be as forthcoming or tolerant going forward.

    You've said it yourself. For many many years now, the main focus of development has been story, meta events, dynamic events, and the occasional fractal. That's pretty much it. But back in the days of Season 1 of the Living World. PvE was getting content every two weeks and all I heard, even back then, were PvPers who felt abandoned by the company. You can write as many paragraphs as you like but the PvE focus has been here since Season 1, when PvE was getting the vast majority of updates.

    Edit: Traditional end game definitions NEVER applied to this game. The game didn't launch with raids. The devs themselves said they considered the three Orr zones end game. Dungeons too were obviously end game, but it wasn't what the devs were talking about, when they talked about the game, at least not by percentage of time. In HoT, zone metas were considered end game and still probably are for most people. Raids and Fractals are the instanced end game, but this game has been focused more on the open world.

    Which simply is why its doomed to not live as long as the competition. If End of dragons doesn't do well I wont be surprised if NCsoft pulls the plug, they've done so to games more successful for less.

    In the 8 years GW2 has been alive it outlived most of its competition ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    Took NCSoft long enough to pull the plug on Wildstar and Aion is still alive with less sales.
    Also they only recently gave Tencent the publishing rights in China.

    Those aren't "most of its competition" though. TERA is still going (unfortunately), WoW is still going much stronger, FFXIV is also going much stronger, BDO pushes GW2 out with its larger daily populations and better player retention, ESO (which is probably GW2s closest "competitor" in terms of combat mechanics and otherwise) is going stronger than GW2 with active population. Runescape, and I mean Oldschool Runescape, holds players better than GW2.

    Not to mention upcoming MMOs are probably going to siphon even more playerbase from GW2. Lost Ark is confirmed for Western release in 2021, it might not have the "lack of a gear treadmill" that GW2 has, but it does have completely equalized PvP arenas which will undoubtedly pull most of whatever remains of the PvP population away from this game.

    So you mentioned 6 still living MMORPGs out of how many MMORPGs that died out while GW2 keeps on living?
    Those games you mentioned aren't "most of its competition". Just the current competition that survived.
    I'm also wondering where you're pulling BDO and ESO population playerbase numbers from, I'm interested how they compare to other games.

    Placing your hope in Lost Ark is funny to see. Do you know which games will pull what remains of the PvP population? Actual PvP games, not Lost Ark.
    And that's without mentioning that Lost Ark has a different target audience than GW2.

    The thing you're forgetting to account for, though, in regards to the "MMORPGs that died while GW2 keeps on living" is that those other MMORPGs also "keep on living". I also never said GW2 is dying, didn't imply it either if you read the rest of the post.

    Also yes, sure, Lost Ark might be aiming for a different target audience than GW2, but they still exist in the same genre...thats like saying WoW and GW2 aren't competitors with each other in the MMORPG genre, which would be wildly inaccurate. Yes its a KR grind MMORPG, yes it has gear treadmill, yes it has top down perspective, but those likely won't be deterrents for players. Or at least not big enough concerns to deter them. Its also presumably being published by Amazon, that marketing endeavor is unlikely to be minimal. So if anything, Lost Arks "target audience" is the typical MMO player...not the "hardcore casual" that GW2 seems to cater to pretty heavily.

    But why do I also say it will probably pull most of whatever remains of the PvP population? Mostly because many likely stick around because they don't have to worry about gear to PvP, which Lost Ark also has. If "actual PvP games" were the only thing that those players were looking for then they would have just simply left already, but give them another option with a system similar to GW2 sPvP and they will probably go to it. Probably not the "top" players, though, considering how they probably enjoy being able to sit in their leaderboard positions with little effort and minimal competition.

    Also I'm curious as to what you mean by "placing my hope in"? To me that sounds like you're assuming that I'm thinking Lost Ark is going to revolutionize the genre, or that it will get me back into MMORPGs, or that it will "kill" GW2. It could be that you just didn't use the right phrasing or I could be wrong but none of that is accurate. For one, no...I don't jump onto hype trains, I'm realistic with my expectations. Its the same reason why I don't believe GW2 is dead or dying, just that its horribly managed, handled and the devs seem like they have a distinct lack of actual passion for this game anymore. Second, I haven't stopped playing MMORPGs, I am playing Destiny 2 right now, I consistently play WoW, and FFXIV is on my list of revisiting sooner rather than later since I can only afford to sub to one of them at a time. Thirdly, I don't even want GW2 to die, I want them to do better, handle it better. I'm not going to fluff their ego, I'm not going to pander to them and feel sorry for them when they get criticism, or adamantly defend them when warranted criticisms are made. I don't discount that its still alive and it still has a population, but I do at the very least recognize that it has issues that I believe ANet needs to resolve, but they have done nothing to resolve them and the game feels like they don't even care, especially with their abysmal approach to communication.

    Man you assume a lot of things. I‘ve never said that you‘re saying that GW2 is dying, if you read my post.
    Asymetrical gaming and third person gaming is a huge difference, especially for MMORPGs. Diablo 4 and PoE2 are the biggest competitors for Lost Ark. I bet most GW2 pvp players haven‘t even heard of the game.
    Tells a lot that you‘re speaking of „hardcore casuals“. Hint: GW2‘s average players are just as bad as any average WoW, LoL, BDO, ESO, Rift, PoE, Diablo player. Get off your high horse.

    Lost Arks PvP is so different from GW2 you‘d better compare it to Battlerite.

    For a „horribly managed“ game GW2 survived 8 years just fine, even with an expansion in the horizon. Maybe it isn‘t as badly managed as you think and you‘re just the wrong target audience?

    I also wouldn‘t call Destiny 2 a MMORPG, but i guess the term changed over time to include lobby shooters /shrug

    Thats why I asked what you meant by "placing my hope in". Seemed an odd phrase to use in the context. I also don't think casual players are "bad" players, I'm fine with casuals I have no issues with them existing and I don't even shove my min/max tryhard mentality onto them. Even in the context of "capability" in a game I don't think casual = not capable, they just want and like different things, its also a matter of mentality. A casual doesn't necessarily do what I do in most games that I play, again which is fine, but they are a different kind of player. I said "hardcore casuals" because GW2's casual playerbase is historically, and vehemently, averse to any kind of gearing/character progression that games like WoW, FFXIV, BDO, or otherwise have. Again, this is fine.

    Also GW2 wasn't horribly managed for all of the 8 years, but things over the last 3 and a half years I'd say have been compounding into it becoming more and more of an issue. The game 100% had more of an actual direction and vision before Colin left, but ever since then I honestly think its been all over the place. Also, I've been with the Guild Wars franchise since 2005 when GW1 first came out, and I've stuck with GW2 over the years until very recently. Its still very much in my wheelhouse, but how they execute things and how things have been handled these last few years I just couldn't anymore. Abysmal communication, PvP balance has gotten worse over time, WvW and sPvP have been for the most part neglected, sPvP Ranked and even ATs are mostly a joke and ANet hasn't taken the right steps to remedy that issue, and the shallowness of the content updates along with the system upon system and abandoned map upon abandoned map bloat in PvE, for me it all compounded into me just being done. If I want meaty PvE content, there are other games for that. If I want at least decent MMORPG PvP, there are other games for that. If I want an MMORPG with a good and engaging story, very much so other games for that. If I want a ton of visual customization that I can earn ingame for my character (also including mounts and other cosmetics), again very much so other games for that.

    GW2, for me, just doesn't do it anymore with the direction they have headed. Its unfortunate, its sad, but that doesn't mean these problems don't exist or that they aren't problems just because you and others like the game. Plenty of people can be blinded by their enjoyment of something to the point of not even bothering to acknowledge the faults or the flaws that it might have. Take my "fanboying" over Lost Ark, as some might consider it at least. Yes, I'm excited for the game and to be able to play it soon, but I also am fully aware that its going to be gear grinding and thats not to everyone's liking, there are also time gated lockouts for certain pieces of content, the PvP arena, Ranked, doesn't allow for full team queueing (3v3), being able to participate in the equalized PvP will also still require you to level a character all the way to 50 first, and so on and so on. No game is without faults, no game is perfect, and GW2 is certainly flawed and thats all I have ever endeavored to point out. The game has its issues, its not unreasonable for myself or others to point them out as criticisms and ask for at least communication from the company on it, but they don't even do that.

    Also yes Destiny 2 is an MMORPG, by definition it is. They tried to dodge the term for years with the "shared world shooter" nonsense...but that is what it is. Its an MMORPG.

    Pretty much every playerbase is like the GW2 one in terms of skill. Being more of a fan of horizontal progressin doesn‘t change that. WoW, BDO, ESO and the rest have pretty much the same average players. Your definition of „casual“ is quite strange, if it means „averse to gearing/character progression“. I guess SL1 runners in Dark Souls are casuals, not much gearing there. Bloodborne has more of an horizontal gearing, aside from weapon upgrades, starter weapons (especially Saw Cleaver) are on par with weapons you later find in the game. I dare say horizontal gear is more skill based, as you can't overpower content with pure gearstats like in WoW or similiar gear-based games.

    I‘ve also been with this game since GW1 Prophecies. The only time I‘ve felt they didn‘t have a clear vision was shortly post HoT. It‘s natural that gamemodes with a small population will be neglected. That‘s not an Anet thing, Riot did the same to Dominion and TT (and Nexus Blitz), even killed them off completely. If you don‘t like the content and can find better gameplay in other games, maybe it isn‘t the game, but that your taste of gameplay doesn‘t match up with Anets vision because you aren‘t the target audience? Anet has the metrics where players spend most of the time, so they create content for those players. Your post makes it clear you aren‘t one of those.

    People can be blinded by their enjoyment the same way they can be blinded by their hate of content that they don‘t enjoy. It‘s so obvious why SPvP, WvW, Dungeons, Raids (and soon most likely Strike Missions) are neglected. Population matters, and the population seems to enjoy the content Anet is creating more than those other modes, even if you don‘t like this direction. Your type of gamemodes/content doesn't seem to pay the bill.

    Destiny 2 is a lobby shooter, not a MMORPG.

    My definition of casual is not "averse to gearing/character progression" that was how I defined GW2's "hardcore casual" or casual playerbase due to how they react to and view any form of gear progression or gear treadmill, this is specifically in the context of GW2. A casual player in WoW likely doesn't share those same views towards that kind of content or system. Your response seems like a misconstrued interpretation of what I actually said by generalizing it to everything.

    If I didn't agree with you on GW2 not fulfilling my criteria for a game I enjoy then I wouldn't have uninstalled. However, that doesn't negate the issues that do exist outside of personal preference being an issue. ANet still has abysmal policy when it comes to communicating with the community, they still abandon PvE content and just leave it in the game rather than rework it to become more relevant or just remove it to get rid of some of the bloat, PvP/WvW continue to lose population due to neglect, Gem Store skins continue to outweigh most earnable ingame skins in terms of visuals, there are still practically no earnable ingame mount skins, no earnable ingame chair skins, and more and more. If you're okay with the direction they have gone, thats fine, then we just have to agree to disagree, but I wholeheartedly believe that you shouldn't just ignore the issues that do exist with how they have been managing things. They have an expansion on the horizon and their careers page still lists that they are hiring a game director and still have yet to acknowledge that Mike Z left last year and we heard nothing about it or a new game director or anything. That should be concerning to this community.

    If that happened with any other MMORPG, any other game for that matter, you can be sure that if they didn't say anything about that sort of big shift in leadership then their communities would be raising hell. Imagine if, for WoW, Ion Hazzikostas stepped down from his position and nothing was said by him or Blizzard and they still had an open vacancy for that position for months? For some reason this community just lets ANet coast and get away with things as significant as that. Thats why my posts probably seem mostly negative or "hateful" of the company, because unfortunately there are some vocal individuals here that will adamantly and without question defend ANet and not hold them accountable for the mistakes and poor decisions they make.

    Also Destiny 2 is a lobby shooter as well as an MMORPG. They have literally defined it as such back in 2019.

    Ah, so you're changing the definition of casual how you please. That means I don't have to pay attention to your definitions, since they are biased and mean nothing then.
    Big shocker that a GW2 player prefers horizontal progression. Horizontal progression has been here since GW1. It's a design choice that attracts players.
    If I want PvP out of a game, I'm not going to play a PvE game, or are those PvE people in a PvE game casual for their averse reaction if you want to introduce PvP?
    If I play a car racing game I'm not suddenly going to call those people "casual" because they are averse to use boats in a game designed around cars. Your definition of casual here is completely arbitrary and nonsensical.

    So you'd prefer it if Anet just simply did it the Riot way? Remove gamemodes to get rid of the bloat? No thank you. PvP/WvW will continue to be neglected because they lack players, just like Dominion and TT did. I mean, do you still see people use Garrisons in WoW? Every old raid and dungeon in WoW could be classified as "bloat". Removing them would still be a mistake. Anet aren't the first ones that abandon content, and they won't be the last.

    Yeah, they have an expansion on the horizon with a plan. Why should not having news about a game director be concerning to this community when content still steadily releases? Because you said so? You may care, but I bet most do not as long as the game keeps releasing content, which it does.

    Ah yes, the community uproars that matter. The scandals at Riot sure did a lot to hurt LoL! What? No one cares about the Hearthstone controversy anymore? Hell, I'd have to look up most game directors of the games I play. You may not like it, but I bet most don't care about stuff like that, they just want to play a good game. It's really strange how there's so many vocal individuals here that will keep on hating on the game for reasons that don't actually matter, years after they've uninstalled. It's like Anet is living in their head rent free.

    Destiny 2 is a lobby shooter, not a MMORPG. Might as well call Battlefield and every BR out there a MMO.

    So yeah, I agree to disagree with most of your points as they seem to stem from not being part of the target audience and personal bias.

    First off, no I'm not changing the definition of casual as I please...that literally is not anywhere remotely what I said. The way a casual plays varies depending on which game you're playing because most of these games play differently or have different mechanics associated with them so context is important. It doesn't boil down to "casual gamers don't like gear progression" as you initially generalized or thought I was saying. Playing casually typically means not playing competitively or in some cases not "speeding" through content or "min/maxing". A casual WoW player for instance is likely not doing high Mythic+ runs or doing Ranked Arenas when they log on but they are likely running dungeons normally, doing world quests and even gearing up over time at a more leisurely pace compared to a more "hardcore" player; in contrast a casual GW2 player likely isn't going too deep into Fractals, they are likely not touching Raids in almost any capacity and they'll probably stop "gearing" when they hit Ascended gear, they also are probably only doing Unranked sPvP if they even touch it at all and if they do WvW its probably just for the dailies if thats where they are that day. So there is a difference depending on the game. Also yes, GW2 players do prefer horizontal progression and it has been here since GW1 (I'd argue GW1 did it better), and GW2 is a much more heavily casual MMORPG than most others because of these things when being compared to them. Again, not a bad thing.

    As for lacking a game director that is literally a position of leadership in the company that directs the game, hence the name of the position. They monitor the budget, schedule and progress of a product. The fact that they lack one makes sense considering the paused Steam release and focus on the expansion (which is a good thing). As for it being a "scandal" I'm not sure I would rate it there with things like Hearthstone or anything at LoL, I wouldn't even call it a "scandal" but a gross misstep in management and community management/communication in not informing the playerbase of these things which can be indicative of how things at ANet are being run (or not run by some classifications). Also you'd be surprised as to what constant community "uproar" can do to try and make sure things are done well enough in a game, that problems are brought to the attention of the devs and allow them to handle it. Blizzard at the very least has done a decent bit of that in the ramp up to the next expansion release, taking feedback from the community and content creators and applying it so that certain things get adjusted to be better or work better.

    You seem to be taking some real hard offense to these points I'm bringing up and I'm not sure its possible to actually have a constructive discussion with you on this if that is the case. I'm fine with having disagreements, but you seem to be almost literally putting words into my mouth and also seem to be completely misunderstanding or misconstruing things I've posted. I apologize if my point of view offends you, but its a bit unnecessary to have this kind of reaction to it where it seems as if you're assuming I'm being completely vitriolic in regards to the game because I share a different point of view.

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 17, 2020

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:
    You seem to be taking some real hard offense to these points I'm bringing up and I'm not sure its possible to actually have a constructive discussion with you on this if that is the case. I'm fine with having disagreements, but you seem to be almost literally putting words into my mouth and also seem to be completely misunderstanding or misconstruing things I've posted. I apologize if my point of view offends you, but its a bit unnecessary to have this kind of reaction to it where it seems as if you're assuming I'm being completely vitriolic in regards to the game because I share a different point of view.

    This from someone that got so offended by me saying that GW2 outlived most of its competition in my original comment that he had to misconstrue my whole argument by putting words into my mouth. Anet really has permanent residency in your head.

    I agree we can‘t have a constructive discussion. There‘s no point arguing when you fault Anet for things you personally believe are bad (when the same things literally happen in the same other games you play, yet for some reason it‘s fine there), but don‘t really matter for the game at all. Only a small fraction of the playerbase cares about the game director not being announced. I‘m not even sure if you can call them part of the playerbase, as they‘re not even playing anymore, just being doomers because they can‘t let go. Just face that you aren‘t the target audience, it‘s not that hard. Changing the whole game around to match your personal vision is not something Anet will do. They‘re here to earn money by creating a product that appeals to many, not a singular person. The game is still doing fine and has a future, even if you don‘t want to realize that.

    Edit: It‘s actually so funny to see you try to attribute different content to „casual“ play. Your horizontal progression = makes the game more casual argument is still so wrong. What would you call someone like Asmongold? He doesn‘t really play competitively, doesn‘t really speed through content etc., yet he‘s one of the people I‘d actually call „hardcore“, as he created his whole life and career around WoW.
    Sorry, but I don‘t think consider min/maxxers or people speeding through content „hardcore“. Everyone can follow a guide. The people creating the guide? Those might be the actual hardcore people, the ones doing the number crunching.
    Most self-proclaimed „hardcore“ players aren‘t hardcore at all. They‘re easy to spot, too.

    You have a heart of gold. Don't let them take it from you.

  • Quadox.7834Quadox.7834 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 17, 2020

    what about the 2v2 and 3v3 rated mini seasons?

    // Yanim

  • KryTiKaL.3125KryTiKaL.3125 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:
    You seem to be taking some real hard offense to these points I'm bringing up and I'm not sure its possible to actually have a constructive discussion with you on this if that is the case. I'm fine with having disagreements, but you seem to be almost literally putting words into my mouth and also seem to be completely misunderstanding or misconstruing things I've posted. I apologize if my point of view offends you, but its a bit unnecessary to have this kind of reaction to it where it seems as if you're assuming I'm being completely vitriolic in regards to the game because I share a different point of view.

    This from someone that got so offended by me saying that GW2 outlived most of its competition in my original comment that he had to misconstrue my whole argument by putting words into my mouth. Anet really has permanent residency in your head.

    I agree we can‘t have a constructive discussion. There‘s no point arguing when you fault Anet for things you personally believe are bad (when the same things literally happen in the same other games you play, yet for some reason it‘s fine there), but don‘t really matter for the game at all. Only a small fraction of the playerbase cares about the game director not being announced. I‘m not even sure if you can call them part of the playerbase, as they‘re not even playing anymore, just being doomers because they can‘t let go. Just face that you aren‘t the target audience, it‘s not that hard. Changing the whole game around to match your personal vision is not something Anet will do. They‘re here to earn money by creating a product that appeals to many, not a singular person. The game is still doing fine and has a future, even if you don‘t want to realize that.

    Edit: It‘s actually so funny to see you try to attribute different content to „casual“ play. Your horizontal progression = makes the game more casual argument is still so wrong. What would you call someone like Asmongold? He doesn‘t really play competitively, doesn‘t really speed through content etc., yet he‘s one of the people I‘d actually call „hardcore“, as he created his whole life and career around WoW.
    Sorry, but I don‘t think consider min/maxxers or people speeding through content „hardcore“. Everyone can follow a guide. The people creating the guide? Those might be the actual hardcore people, the ones doing the number crunching.
    Most self-proclaimed „hardcore“ players aren‘t hardcore at all. They‘re easy to spot, too.

    Alright, well if you can't seem to cease from being vitriolic and have a constructive conversation because you took some apparent extreme offense at me simply, and calmly, pointing out something you said that I felt wasn't entirely accurate. I hope you enjoy the rest of your day/night and that you continue to enjoy GW2.