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Has there been any news on upcoming balance?

Paradoxoglanis.1904Paradoxoglanis.1904 Member ✭✭✭✭

Has anything been said from CMC or others at anet? I know they rarely say anything, but this balance is arguably the worst its been in years, and not a lot has changed since February. The meta is still full of builds that are horrible to play and play against, but they seem to think everything is fine just because there is some diversity?

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Comments

  • Xca.9721Xca.9721 Member ✭✭✭

    @Shiyo.3578 said:

    Yes, it seems like CMC isn't even working on the game? It's been so long since the last patch and that fixed ZERO issues. We need more balance patches, fast. People don't want to be in this meta until cantha...

    To me it seems like he is working on the new expansion and only has so much time left for the balance of the current game

  • More diversity is key to rebuilding the pvp playerbase. F2p players trying out pvp and being able to be successful is a big factor on whether to keep playing the game.

    The meta has gone stale and overtuned builds prevent other builds from becoming meta or at least that can be played competitively. Biggest offenders being holo who can consistently auto.attack with grenades for 3k a hit. Tempest has too many ways to mitigate damage. Small shaves like reduce aura duration to 3s and swirling winds to 5s would go a long way

  • What do you mean? cc's do 12 dmg, the game has been just fine......Ha.

  • Gogdarth.6741Gogdarth.6741 Member ✭✭✭

    I hate that there's not even a single word while meta is being this festering, annoying and putrid. It leaves little hope to keep playing at all, especially if you're unfortunate enough to be a mesmer main, or warrior main.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Well.. it has been a major train rock since Feb. SmAll meta changes won’t do kitten.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    They are on a table, somewhere with the intern they left to try and figure this mess out. Likely we will see rev obliterated from orbit; Which means guardian will be the only heavy worth having which kind of already is the case. Necromancer will someone get buffered from their nerf, and everything else will be left as is because warrior is no longer an issue and as such the game is finally balanced just as CMC wants it.

  • Marxx.5021Marxx.5021 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 3, 2020

    As PvP is as unbalanced as before cmc took over it really doesn't matter anymore if or when there are more "balancing" patches. It wont change anything.

  • 7.6 K crit damage in a single hit with a blind to follow is peak balance https://imgur.com/g1pr9UC :)

  • Daishi.6027Daishi.6027 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 3, 2020

    CMC: "We don't always make good balance, it's okay; maybe we'll do better nextime :^)" (to bad "next time" is so insanely long and far off, and odds are no. You wont do better next time.)
    Also CMC: "We could make true balance but then it wouldn't be fun".

    What we have now already isn't fun, optimal play is skewed so heavily towards certain builds meaning less people can even attempt to have fun with their mains. I'd prefer it be "not fun" (or so you say, we don't actually have evidence of a truly balanced GW2 experience.) and more people be able to participate with what they want to play, rather than this. At the VERY LEAST; starting with true balance as a baseline then diverging to create more interesting interplay would be a better over all experience than what we have now, and could even draw in and retain players.

  • @Shiyo.3578 said:

    @FrownyClown.8402 said:
    Small shaves like reduce aura duration to 3s and swirling winds to 5s would go a long way

    No, that literally does nothing but butcher DPS ele specs even further and is nearly irrelevant for healer tempest. The issue with tempest is SHARED shock aura(WATER - healer trait that a DPS tempest wouldn't take) and GLYPH OF RENEWAL which is also something a DPS tempest wouldn't take.

    I respectfully disagree. Shared shocking aura has never been a problem until this meta formed. Shared stability would easily fix this problem but they put everything on a 60s cooldown. Most people would rather take a low cooldown stunbreak. Counters to shocking aura clearly exist within the game, but is not utilized because the professions or builds that make use of shared stability are not good enough to be considered meta. You can't counter a reflect or projectile block other than to not attack. Tempest would get pooped on by lb ranger if their projectile defense wasn't so over-tuned. Reducing the uptime on auras will affect dps ele very little. Weaver makes no use of it. Core d/d would maybe be affected most by shocking aura but its 1 second less. DPS tempest spams air overload so the uptime is already very high. I could be wrong about all of this, but at least I am not complaining about any change that could affect dps ele without looking at the real reason dps ele doesn't work in the first place.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 3, 2020

    @Shiyo.3578 said:
    There's VERY LITTLE diversity.

    This meta is actually the least diverse meta we've ever seen.

    There are only 4 classes/builds that are considered meta right now:

    1. DP Thief
    2. Tempest
    3. Reaper
    4. Holosmith

    Really though, that's actually happening. Even Herald has fallen out due to how much passive CC is rolling off team fights with Tempests & Holosmiths, and the small amount of stability that Herald gets isn't enough to deal with the CC meta being driven by shocking aura share and flashbang. Essentially what we have happening is a meta that is gated by how much CC & Stability a class/build has access to while still remaining viable in combat. DP Thief is the only exception to that for obvious reasons.

    See for yourselves -> https://metabattle.com/wiki/Conquest

  • @Daishi.6027 said:
    CMC: "We don't always make good balance, it's okay; maybe we'll do better nextime :^)" (to bad "next time" is so insanely long and far off, and odds are no. You wont do better next time.)
    Also CMC: "We could make true balance but then it wouldn't be fun".

    What we have now already isn't fun, optimal play is skewed so heavily towards certain builds meaning less people can even attempt to have fun with their mains.

    They actually cannot do "true balance" because of the way class mechanics work. So I don't know what they are talking about when they say all they can do is tweak numbers and cooldowns.

    Hey balance team, numbers me some teleport and stealth for my Warrior will ya?

  • Tazer.2157Tazer.2157 Member ✭✭✭

    I wish they would at least communicate. If they are working on something else fine. But months of silence is not good in any way. Imo at the end of a pvp season, there should be changes. I’m playing more pve than pvp now.

  • Eddbopkins.2630Eddbopkins.2630 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Pvp only get updates either 6 months appart or 12 months appart. There seems to be no inbetween or a regular schedule for pvp balance and maintenance. Pvp is to the devs as air is in space.......none exsistant.

  • @Bazsi.2734 said:

    @Widmo.3186 said:
    For all those folks that really thought cmc knows what hes doing and gonna do something useful

    I'm pretty sure he knows what he wants to do, and I'm also pretty sure what we see in these updates do not reflect that since march. All the skill updates removing combo finishers/combofields and adding new passive traits were not his ideas(I'm just baseing this on him saying that he wants the opposite, if I'm wrong this game is done for). He's clearly not in control.

    MMO-s have a life cycle about 2-4 years, which generally can only be restarted with new expansions. PoF was way past 2 years of age when they started this rework, do they not care that time is running out? This company has some weird inner workings, from the outside it honestly looks like chaos.

    I mean at this point that's just making excuses for CMC, Widmo hit the nail right on the head. The faster balance and smaller patches were pretty much a lie, and now you got left with all the bad changes as usual. It's also dumb because people striving for de-powered nerf everything balance are going to get kicked in the face, when the next set of E-specs rolls in. Two things will happen. 1: E-specs are going to be borke for w.e reason and people will cry for nerfs, 2: E-Specs are going to feel like trash and people are going to cry for buffs, and then we go in another merry-go-round back and forth balancing.

  • Guess ill check back once the xpac releases.

  • Kuma.1503Kuma.1503 Member ✭✭✭

    I was still new to PvP in the pre Feb Patch era. It wasn't fun being one shot constantly, but at least ele was fun. You had multiple viable weaver builds to choose from, and auramancer tempest, while technically overshadowed by firebrand at the time, had its place on certain comps. In fact it actually took advantage of firebrand being meta and would pair nicely alongside a firebrand to form a strong teamighting combination.

    Many nerfs later and ele isn't as enjoyable. Sword was neutered in the feb patch. Staff is still terribad (Meteor shower and lava font should have their nerfs reverted in all game modes) Aurashare tempest is doing well at the moment, but with cries to gut that too, I reckon it's not long before that gets sent into the gutter.

    Ele isn't doing too hot in PvE either. You'd rather have a Warrior, Guard, Rev, Ranger, or Mesmer.

    If the devs want to "reduce power creep" that's fine, but there is a time and place to bring up elements that are clearly performing below the current standards.

  • Widmo.3186Widmo.3186 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kuma.1503 said:
    I was still new to PvP in the pre Feb Patch era. It wasn't fun being one shot constantly, but at least ele was fun. You had multiple viable weaver builds to choose from, and auramancer tempest, while technically overshadowed by firebrand at the time, had its place on certain comps. In fact it actually took advantage of firebrand being meta and would pair nicely alongside a firebrand to form a strong teamighting combination.

    Many nerfs later and ele isn't as enjoyable. Sword was neutered in the feb patch. Staff is still terribad (Meteor shower and lava font should have their nerfs reverted in all game modes) Aurashare tempest is doing well at the moment, but with cries to gut that too, I reckon it's not long before that gets sent into the gutter.

    Ele isn't doing too hot in PvE either. You'd rather have a Warrior, Guard, Rev, Ranger, or Mesmer.

    If the devs want to "reduce power creep" that's fine, but there is a time and place to bring up elements that are clearly performing below the current standards.

    Let me say one thing as a guy that plays (or rather played) this game for 8 years, also as ele main - switch class.
    Noone, literally no-one in whole dev team knows what to do with ele. In the whole history of 'balancing', ele in 99% of cases was receiving nerfs or weird adjusts. People that likes to play this class pray everytime new patch is about to happen that they wont see "Elementalist" word in notes, no matter if ele is atm in meta or not. Because whether devs wants to buff it or nerf it, they just make it worse.

  • Megametzler.5729Megametzler.5729 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 5, 2020

    @FrownyClown.8402 said:

    @Shiyo.3578 said:

    @FrownyClown.8402 said:
    Small shaves like reduce aura duration to 3s and swirling winds to 5s would go a long way

    No, that literally does nothing but butcher DPS ele specs even further and is nearly irrelevant for healer tempest. The issue with tempest is SHARED shock aura(WATER - healer trait that a DPS tempest wouldn't take) and GLYPH OF RENEWAL which is also something a DPS tempest wouldn't take.

    I respectfully disagree. Shared shocking aura has never been a problem until this meta formed. Shared stability would easily fix this problem but they put everything on a 60s cooldown. Most people would rather take a low cooldown stunbreak. Counters to shocking aura clearly exist within the game, but is not utilized because the professions or builds that make use of shared stability are not good enough to be considered meta. You can't counter a reflect or projectile block other than to not attack. Tempest would get pooped on by lb ranger if their projectile defense wasn't so over-tuned. Reducing the uptime on auras will affect dps ele very little. Weaver makes no use of it. Core d/d would maybe be affected most by shocking aura but its 1 second less. DPS tempest spams air overload so the uptime is already very high. I could be wrong about all of this, but at least I am not complaining about any change that could affect dps ele without looking at the real reason dps ele doesn't work in the first place.

    The issue with the new shocking aura abomination is: Support tempests used to have no other option to cleanse than the other water grandmaster trait, cleanse on regeneration. Now, since they can drop earth and get great AoE cleanses on auras with fire, they could switch to aura share. Yes, hate me, fellow eles, but the cleanses added to fire made ele much more imbalanced as a whole - fire weaver was another abomination caused by this exact thing. The issue was not the damage, the issue was the strong defense coupled with it. They nerfed the damage...

    For support tempest they need to nerf the fire traitline (make it more egoistic for example) or make earth viable (someone suggested offensive boon hate). Guess they will nerf water (just plain nerf the aura share duration). :lol:

    Which would still be better than shocking aura nerfs, because it is desperately needed for other builds...

    €: Also /signed @Widmo.3186. :smirk:

  • dronte.3416dronte.3416 Member ✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Shiyo.3578 said:
    There's VERY LITTLE diversity.

    This meta is actually the least diverse meta we've ever seen.

    There are only 4 classes/builds that are considered meta right now:

    1. DP Thief
    2. Tempest
    3. Reaper
    4. Holosmith

    Really though, that's actually happening. Even Herald has fallen out due to how much passive CC is rolling off team fights with Tempests & Holosmiths, and the small amount of stability that Herald gets isn't enough to deal with the CC meta being driven by shocking aura share and flashbang. Essentially what we have happening is a meta that is gated by how much CC & Stability a class/build has access to while still remaining viable in combat. DP Thief is the only exception to that for obvious reasons.

    See for yourselves -> https://metabattle.com/wiki/Conquest

    Since when is metabattle, a page edited by a few PvE players, considered to reflect the actual state of the game / meta? It's like quoting an article on wikipedia as a reliable source.

    There are much more builds that are more or less on the same level in the current meta, with the exception of holo and in some ways tempest, who are outliers.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Widmo.3186 said:

    @Kuma.1503 said:
    I was still new to PvP in the pre Feb Patch era. It wasn't fun being one shot constantly, but at least ele was fun. You had multiple viable weaver builds to choose from, and auramancer tempest, while technically overshadowed by firebrand at the time, had its place on certain comps. In fact it actually took advantage of firebrand being meta and would pair nicely alongside a firebrand to form a strong teamighting combination.

    Many nerfs later and ele isn't as enjoyable. Sword was neutered in the feb patch. Staff is still terribad (Meteor shower and lava font should have their nerfs reverted in all game modes) Aurashare tempest is doing well at the moment, but with cries to gut that too, I reckon it's not long before that gets sent into the gutter.

    Ele isn't doing too hot in PvE either. You'd rather have a Warrior, Guard, Rev, Ranger, or Mesmer.

    If the devs want to "reduce power creep" that's fine, but there is a time and place to bring up elements that are clearly performing below the current standards.

    Let me say one thing as a guy that plays (or rather played) this game for 8 years, also as ele main - switch class.
    Noone, literally no-one in whole dev team knows what to do with ele. In the whole history of 'balancing', ele in 99% of cases was receiving nerfs or weird adjusts. People that likes to play this class pray everytime new patch is about to happen that they wont see "Elementalist" word in notes, no matter if ele is atm in meta or not. Because whether devs wants to buff it or nerf it, they just make it worse.

    Ya.... ele always keeps getting ragdolled around. It plays as support, no bruiser, no Dps, no CC. Theoretically, Tempest is support and weaver is bruiser, but this statement rarely holds.

    And the current spvp devs dunno what the kitten they are doing.

  • wevh.2903wevh.2903 Member ✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Shiyo.3578 said:
    There's VERY LITTLE diversity.

    This meta is actually the least diverse meta we've ever seen.

    There are only 4 classes/builds that are considered meta right now:

    1. DP Thief
    2. Tempest
    3. Reaper
    4. Holosmith

    Really though, that's actually happening. Even Herald has fallen out due to how much passive CC is rolling off team fights with Tempests & Holosmiths, and the small amount of stability that Herald gets isn't enough to deal with the CC meta being driven by shocking aura share and flashbang. Essentially what we have happening is a meta that is gated by how much CC & Stability a class/build has access to while still remaining viable in combat. DP Thief is the only exception to that for obvious reasons.

    See for yourselves -> https://metabattle.com/wiki/Conquest

    Scrapper, druid , core ranger , tempest , nades holo , support warrior, renegade with shiro sb , core pd thief , reaper , core necro ,

  • wevh.2903wevh.2903 Member ✭✭✭

    @Shiyo.3578 said:
    There's VERY LITTLE diversity.

    Team comp:

    • Thief(daredevil d/p, condi p/d) roamer. No other class can replace this.
    • Tempest support. No other class can replace this.
    • Holosmith/Reaper/Sevenshot meme renegade/Scrapper/Power Herald Team fighters, 1v1ers, duelists, AND sidenoders.

    So the diversity is do you play holo or scrapper eng, and do you play renegade or herald rev :^)

    The issue is rev. eng, and reaper all are too good at too many things with no weaknesses and can fill multiple roles at once. Also thief is just busted beyond belief and shock aura + glyph have ZERO counterplay.

    Then you have these classes:

    • Warrior - Can't team fight, loses to THIEF 1v1 so utterly useless as a sidenoder, loses to everything else 1v1.
    • Mesmer - Plasma dispensers to thieves, the strongest class in the game, so actively griefs your team by playing this class.

    Yes, it seems like CMC isn't even working on the game? It's been so long since the last patch and that fixed ZERO issues. We need more balance patches, fast. People don't want to be in this meta until cantha...

    Shout warrior can be a option to tempest if mistform bug is fixed .

    U dont know what roamer role means , both power revenant and nades holo are roamers

    (Main role/secondary role )

    Power revenant/nades holo : roamers/teamfighters

    Thief: both roamer and decapper(this is the only role where thief is unique)
    Mesmer with portal can be a decapper too

    Note a decapper sidenoder is not the same

    Purely teamfighters are : core necro /reaper/ tempest /shout warrior

    Sometimes those can duel and hold a node but not what they are mean for

    Mirage and lr weaver r not meta but they have pretty much playable builds

    Deccap druid is playable too ,core ranger less

  • @Shiyo.3578 said:
    There's VERY LITTLE diversity.

    Mostly agree but let me go into more detail

    Team comp:

    • Thief(daredevil d/p, condi p/d) roamer. No other class can replace this.

    Well I see it on both sides for thief there isn't a team player build at all, ranger is also often too far away. Like in my balance thread about teamplay I would suggest give them or/and change ALL the unique boons so that they got more out of it when players are around e.g for spotter 10+ for each player up to 5 so not too over powered and only when in combat , spirits can do that too and thief could can a new trait like this or 2 as alternative to stealth/smoke.

    About the way the the other side around, Swordweaver was/is an alternative but I don't see much of them they were never great except the fire weaver build which when I look at the official list of meta battle seems to go the way of the dodo I also said things in this regards in other ele balancing threads e.g move weaver crit trait to all ele and replace it with 15% increased water dmg. Mesmer were in the past also roaming a lot more their problem I don't know possible the nerf of blink ?(for PvE reasons)

    • Tempest support. No other class can replace this.

    I agree and I also said it before the only viable is this 'monster' of a Tempest build I love Heal Tempest but this isn't right but under the line ele needs changes to it traits lines which are nerfs and buffs and the same time here it is really important to take a close look and not throw random things in. Heal Warrior has problems with too low healing and too low survivability , FB has too little condi clean or better he is forced to make hard choices to either take rez sigil or take more condi clean with him . Duid doesn't seems to taken off even after all those buffs and every scrapper plays DPS.

    • Holosmith/Reaper/Sevenshot meme renegade/Scrapper/Power Herald Team fighters, 1v1ers, duelists, AND sidenoders.

    So the diversity is do you play holo or scrapper eng, and do you play renegade or herald rev :^)

    The issue is rev. eng, and reaper all are too good at too many things with no weaknesses and can fill multiple roles at once. Also thief is just busted beyond belief and shock aura + glyph have ZERO counterplay.

    Then you have these classes:

    • Warrior - Can't team fight, loses to THIEF 1v1 so utterly useless as a sidenoder, loses to everything else 1v1.

    Well I only played (Heal) Spellbreaker but after it didn't worked I experimented with all kinds of builds with it the core problem is it force you to play a mix out of boon corruption , cc and DPS when following the trait lines. First problem is with cc there is no more DPS in case of the hammer this is okay but when you want to do dps you are forced to basically but every utility to the side which doesn't help your team and you are an easy target for condis then also after all those changes dagger sucks heavy now.

    • Mesmer - Plasma dispensers to thieves, the strongest class in the game, so actively griefs your team by playing this class.

    Yes, it seems like CMC isn't even working on the game? It's been so long since the last patch and that fixed ZERO issues. We need more balance patches, fast. People don't want to be in this meta until cantha...

  • Daishi.6027Daishi.6027 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 8, 2020

    @TeqkOneStylez.8047 said:

    @Daishi.6027 said:
    CMC: "We don't always make good balance, it's okay; maybe we'll do better nextime :^)" (to bad "next time" is so insanely long and far off, and odds are no. You wont do better next time.)
    Also CMC: "We could make true balance but then it wouldn't be fun".

    What we have now already isn't fun, optimal play is skewed so heavily towards certain builds meaning less people can even attempt to have fun with their mains.

    They actually cannot do "true balance" because of the way class mechanics work. So I don't know what they are talking about when they say all they can do is tweak numbers and cooldowns.

    Hey balance team, numbers me some teleport and stealth for my Warrior will ya?

    Well CMC said so otherwise, directly and specifically, and let's be honest here many many games do retain a certain level of equality in balance that go far and above the disparities we get in GW2, while maintaining a large amount of variety.

    Warrior wouldn't need stealth if it's survivability and attacks were contrasted to the same level of effectiveness of stealth (akin to having attacks that can end an opponent and require anticipation rather than reaction to a tell... although I'd argue that stealth in this game carries a lot less risk than others). As for Teleports: It was only a few years ago that a warrior mobility could make it from side node to mid faster than anything but mesmer portal, and expending less resources than thief. (although to be fair thief refreshes their resources quicker on a whole), this does not solve the inequality of the Z-axis, but utilization of the z-axis in and of itself has it's own counters; particularly in conquest mode. However, were we to shift to a non conquest based format it still wouldn't be hard to create alternatives.

    This is to say, it's not impossible, but A-net believes it wouldn't be fun. And lets be honest, given the scene it probably isn't in their budget to even attempt something like that.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shiyo.3578 said:
    Team comp:

    • Thief(daredevil d/p, condi p/d) roamer. No other class can replace this.

    mesmer??

    • Tempest support. No other class can replace this.

    fb ?? necro ? srapper adn any other.

    • Warrior - Can't team fight, loses to THIEF 1v1 so utterly useless as a sidenoder, loses to everything else 1v1.

    I think warrior whit some skill can soling any other class on same rate.

    Yes, it seems like CMC isn't even working on the game? It's been so long since the last patch and that fixed ZERO issues. We need more balance patches, fast. People don't want to be in this meta until cantha...

    we don't need some magic patch. Currently we can take any class and play. Previous season play as condi chrono - it was fun, now play celestial rev wiht hammer and shild - fun too. We have mmr system, so we can no worry

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • Tharan.9085Tharan.9085 Member ✭✭✭

    @lare.5129 said:

    @Shiyo.3578 said:
    Team comp:

    • Thief(daredevil d/p, condi p/d) roamer. No other class can replace this.

    mesmer??

    • Tempest support. No other class can replace this.

    fb ?? necro ? srapper adn any other.

    • Warrior - Can't team fight, loses to THIEF 1v1 so utterly useless as a sidenoder, loses to everything else 1v1.

    I think warrior whit some skill can soling any other class on same rate.

    Yes, it seems like CMC isn't even working on the game? It's been so long since the last patch and that fixed ZERO issues. We need more balance patches, fast. People don't want to be in this meta until cantha...

    we don't need some magic patch. Currently we can take any class and play. Previous season play as condi chrono - it was fun, now play celestial rev wiht hammer and shild - fun too. We have mmr system, so we can no worry

    Mesmer is garbage and has less mobility, firebrand gets outvalued and necro or scrapper Support arent a thing and warrior looses every single matchup

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @lare.5129 said:

    @Shiyo.3578 said:
    Team comp:

    • Thief(daredevil d/p, condi p/d) roamer. No other class can replace this.

    mesmer??

    • Tempest support. No other class can replace this.

    fb ?? necro ? srapper adn any other.

    • Warrior - Can't team fight, loses to THIEF 1v1 so utterly useless as a sidenoder, loses to everything else 1v1.

    I think warrior whit some skill can soling any other class on same rate.

    Yes, it seems like CMC isn't even working on the game? It's been so long since the last patch and that fixed ZERO issues. We need more balance patches, fast. People don't want to be in this meta until cantha...

    we don't need some magic patch. Currently we can take any class and play. Previous season play as condi chrono - it was fun, now play celestial rev wiht hammer and shild - fun too. We have mmr system, so we can no worry

    you want to replace thief with mesmer? its gonna be rough, with thief being a hard counter to mesmer and all that.
    FB is worse then tempest, its not far off but its not close enough to bother running it over tempest, its much easier to kill, its just not worth it to run it.
    warrior is a joke

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 11, 2020

    @Tharan.9085 said:
    Mesmer is garbage and has less mobility, firebrand gets outvalued and necro or scrapper Support arent a thing and warrior looses every single matchup

    and this is part of game. So if you have "mid gold" skill on some class you will be play on "abstract silver" rank. And on that rank you will get aprox equal opponents. So can not worry to some inblance. Gold Mesmer is garbage and has less mobility have same mobility as silver thief, and platinum skill warrior will dominate vs silver necro.

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    you want to replace thief with mesmer? its gonna be rough, with thief being a hard counter to mesmer and all that.

    I was done that prev season. After drop 600-500 rank get perfect match wiht equal random thiefs skill.

    warrior is a joke

    Btw next season I have plan play with warrior, probably wiht hammer/mace+shield. Don't see any problem take any build to get fun.

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • Stallic.2397Stallic.2397 Member ✭✭✭

    @Gogdarth.6741 said:
    I hate that there's not even a single word while meta is being this festering, annoying and putrid. It leaves little hope to keep playing at all, especially if you're unfortunate enough to be a mesmer main, or warrior main.

    Don't worry, since POF release those two classes had their hay day. Now they're out of the meta. The wheel will turn in mes and warriors favor soon enough. Just a waiting game

  • Shiyo.3578Shiyo.3578 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stallic.2397 said:

    @Gogdarth.6741 said:
    I hate that there's not even a single word while meta is being this festering, annoying and putrid. It leaves little hope to keep playing at all, especially if you're unfortunate enough to be a mesmer main, or warrior main.

    Don't worry, since POF release those two classes had their hay day. Now they're out of the meta. The wheel will turn in mes and warriors favor soon enough. Just a waiting game

    No self respecting dev balances their game like this, so I doubt Anet does.

  • Kodama.6453Kodama.6453 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shiyo.3578 said:

    @Stallic.2397 said:

    @Gogdarth.6741 said:
    I hate that there's not even a single word while meta is being this festering, annoying and putrid. It leaves little hope to keep playing at all, especially if you're unfortunate enough to be a mesmer main, or warrior main.

    Don't worry, since POF release those two classes had their hay day. Now they're out of the meta. The wheel will turn in mes and warriors favor soon enough. Just a waiting game

    No self respecting dev balances their game like this, so I doubt Anet does.

    Not a new concept for me, tbh. Riot Games does this with League of Legends, they are making changes to basically "force" some champions in and out of the meta regularly.
    Since reaching perfect balance in a complex game is basically impossible to achieve anyway, they just rotate the meta so everyone gets their "time in the spotlight".

    And if it works for League of Legends, which is one of the most successful video games in history....

  • Shiyo.3578Shiyo.3578 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @Shiyo.3578 said:

    @Stallic.2397 said:

    @Gogdarth.6741 said:
    I hate that there's not even a single word while meta is being this festering, annoying and putrid. It leaves little hope to keep playing at all, especially if you're unfortunate enough to be a mesmer main, or warrior main.

    Don't worry, since POF release those two classes had their hay day. Now they're out of the meta. The wheel will turn in mes and warriors favor soon enough. Just a waiting game

    No self respecting dev balances their game like this, so I doubt Anet does.

    Not a new concept for me, tbh. Riot Games does this with League of Legends, they are making changes to basically "force" some champions in and out of the meta regularly.
    Since reaching perfect balance in a complex game is basically impossible to achieve anyway, they just rotate the meta so everyone gets their "time in the spotlight".

    And if it works for League of Legends, which is one of the most successful video games in history....

    Profits =/= good game. Do not bring up revenue when discussing good or fun design.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @Shiyo.3578 said:

    @Stallic.2397 said:

    @Gogdarth.6741 said:
    I hate that there's not even a single word while meta is being this festering, annoying and putrid. It leaves little hope to keep playing at all, especially if you're unfortunate enough to be a mesmer main, or warrior main.

    Don't worry, since POF release those two classes had their hay day. Now they're out of the meta. The wheel will turn in mes and warriors favor soon enough. Just a waiting game

    No self respecting dev balances their game like this, so I doubt Anet does.

    Not a new concept for me, tbh. Riot Games does this with League of Legends, they are making changes to basically "force" some champions in and out of the meta regularly.
    Since reaching perfect balance in a complex game is basically impossible to achieve anyway, they just rotate the meta so everyone gets their "time in the spotlight".

    And if it works for League of Legends, which is one of the most successful video games in history....

    they do that to champions they consider "fun to play and fun to watch", they do that before big tournaments a lot.
    sometimes its ok, sometimes it sucks.
    they sure love having fiora/irelia/lucian and for some kitten reason rumble buffed
    Putting things into strong category, when they are fun to fight and play is fine, problem starts when the OP build ends up being scrapper that pushes you away, core guard that afks on node, condi rev that afks on node, condi thief that does 15-20k bursts from stealth or tempest that makes no counterplay revives.
    Sure some of the got the slap but they make uninteractive things OP, despite holo being the thing that made me rage quit and how kitten broken holo is, I mind fighting it less that I mind fighting bug abusing tempests, bunker guards and scrappers

  • Shiyo.3578Shiyo.3578 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 12, 2020

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    Sure some of the got the slap but they make uninteractive things OP, despite holo being the thing that made me rage quit and how kitten broken holo is, I mind fighting it less that I mind fighting bug abusing tempests, bunker guards and scrappers

    No one has ever liked fighting bunkers or scrappers.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @Shiyo.3578 said:

    @Stallic.2397 said:

    @Gogdarth.6741 said:
    I hate that there's not even a single word while meta is being this festering, annoying and putrid. It leaves little hope to keep playing at all, especially if you're unfortunate enough to be a mesmer main, or warrior main.

    Don't worry, since POF release those two classes had their hay day. Now they're out of the meta. The wheel will turn in mes and warriors favor soon enough. Just a waiting game

    No self respecting dev balances their game like this, so I doubt Anet does.

    Not a new concept for me, tbh. Riot Games does this with League of Legends, they are making changes to basically "force" some champions in and out of the meta regularly.
    Since reaching perfect balance in a complex game is basically impossible to achieve anyway, they just rotate the meta so everyone gets their "time in the spotlight".

    And if it works for League of Legends, which is one of the most successful video games in history....

    they do that to champions they consider "fun to play and fun to watch", they do that before big tournaments a lot.
    sometimes its ok, sometimes it sucks.
    they sure love having fiora/irelia/lucian and for some kitten reason rumble buffed

    Those (barring maybe Irelia) are champions that get buffed when they arent good. Like of all the options to choose, you choose the ones that are balanced properly? A better example is Lee randomly getting pre-worlds buffs when he is already overpowered, just so he can get close to 100% P/B.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @Shiyo.3578 said:

    @Stallic.2397 said:

    @Gogdarth.6741 said:
    I hate that there's not even a single word while meta is being this festering, annoying and putrid. It leaves little hope to keep playing at all, especially if you're unfortunate enough to be a mesmer main, or warrior main.

    Don't worry, since POF release those two classes had their hay day. Now they're out of the meta. The wheel will turn in mes and warriors favor soon enough. Just a waiting game

    No self respecting dev balances their game like this, so I doubt Anet does.

    Not a new concept for me, tbh. Riot Games does this with League of Legends, they are making changes to basically "force" some champions in and out of the meta regularly.
    Since reaching perfect balance in a complex game is basically impossible to achieve anyway, they just rotate the meta so everyone gets their "time in the spotlight".

    And if it works for League of Legends, which is one of the most successful video games in history....

    they do that to champions they consider "fun to play and fun to watch", they do that before big tournaments a lot.
    sometimes its ok, sometimes it sucks.
    they sure love having fiora/irelia/lucian and for some kitten reason rumble buffed

    Those (barring maybe Irelia) are champions that get buffed when they arent good. Like of all the options to choose, you choose the ones that are balanced properly? A better example is Lee randomly getting pre-worlds buffs when he is already overpowered, just so he can get close to 100% P/B.

    lee is volatile champion, small changes to jungle/other champions can push him from 50% to 46%, and he ends up needing buffs.
    Thats why they buff him and they always buff him VERY carefully, if you look through his notes he was buffed like ~20 times in a row each time with a small buff to see how it goes.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @Shiyo.3578 said:

    @Stallic.2397 said:

    @Gogdarth.6741 said:
    I hate that there's not even a single word while meta is being this festering, annoying and putrid. It leaves little hope to keep playing at all, especially if you're unfortunate enough to be a mesmer main, or warrior main.

    Don't worry, since POF release those two classes had their hay day. Now they're out of the meta. The wheel will turn in mes and warriors favor soon enough. Just a waiting game

    No self respecting dev balances their game like this, so I doubt Anet does.

    Not a new concept for me, tbh. Riot Games does this with League of Legends, they are making changes to basically "force" some champions in and out of the meta regularly.
    Since reaching perfect balance in a complex game is basically impossible to achieve anyway, they just rotate the meta so everyone gets their "time in the spotlight".

    And if it works for League of Legends, which is one of the most successful video games in history....

    they do that to champions they consider "fun to play and fun to watch", they do that before big tournaments a lot.
    sometimes its ok, sometimes it sucks.
    they sure love having fiora/irelia/lucian and for some kitten reason rumble buffed

    Those (barring maybe Irelia) are champions that get buffed when they arent good. Like of all the options to choose, you choose the ones that are balanced properly? A better example is Lee randomly getting pre-worlds buffs when he is already overpowered, just so he can get close to 100% P/B.

    lee is volatile champion, small changes to jungle/other champions can push him from 50% to 46%, and he ends up needing buffs.

    Win rate does not equal power (sadly it seems Riot fired everyone who knew that fact). Lee Sin has never in the history of league needed buffs. He was always a top tier jungler, and 75% of the time a top 3 jungler who defined the jungle meta.

    Thats why they buff him and they always buff him VERY carefully, if you look through his notes he was buffed like ~20 times in a row each time with a small buff to see how it goes.

    What are you talking about? They never buff him carefully. A big boost to his ult damage. Decent boost to his Q damage. Ridiculous buff to his Q damage. The only time they did small buffs a couple patches in a row was when they buffed his passive (which is a pointless buff because they buffed his energy restoration. Yknow, on the champ who doesnt run out of energy anyway?). Most of the time its just big buffs around worlds and big nerfs afterwards. And he still remains one of the best junglers.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 lee is an old champion, he NEEDED buffs, prebuffed lee would be sitting at around 30% winrate right now.
    as of right now he is bad for most player but OK for the top tier players, as he should be. He is not even good, I play premade 5mans and lee jungle is like one of the least scary junglers.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 12, 2020

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @UNOwen.7132 lee is an old champion, he NEEDED buffs, prebuffed lee would be sitting at around 30% winrate right now.

    No he didnt. Again, win rate doesnt ever equal power (something you would know if you had even the most basic statistical knowledge), but also, he was at the same 48% win rate he always is. Hell, most players reaction to the buffs were confusion as to why they were buffing one of the best junglers.

    as of right now he is bad for most player but OK for the top tier players, as he should be. He is not even good, I play premade 5mans and lee jungle is like one of the least scary junglers.

    They just nerfed him because he was one of the most contested junglers. Spoilers: he still is. And he will be so forever. And remember, Lee Sin was just nerfed. Back after he was buffed for no reason again, he was considered far and away the best jungler, had a ban rate of over 40% in high elo (despite having a pick rate of over 35% as well), and when pro players were asked which champion needed a nerf the majority answered "Lee Sin". His buff was completely unneccessary and out of place. Rumble, Fiora and Lucian on the other hand? They were actually bad. Hell, Fiora is still bad.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 Listen, I played league of 10 years now, when you see as "buffs" are most recent stuff. I mean ALL the buffs, he got over last like ~ 5 years.
    They were needed, right now he is middle tier jungler at best, high effort low reward champion thats only good when you master him, do you know what is also good? everything else that you master. Winrates MATTER you just need to be able to intercept them.
    for example, Dia + lee sits at under 47% winrate.
    master + still 47% winrate
    grandmaster wtill 47%
    challenger ( best of the best ) still 47%.
    what does that tell us? champion sucks, its not him sucking in low rank since its legit top 0,01% of the playerbase that still cant make him work.
    You would know that if you ever played with or against those people. Those people will abuse and and all things they can, lee sin has BIG flaws in his kit, scaling issue, huge reliance on one skillshot and in general he is FORCED to win early game or the game is done.
    This is not low rankings where you go through early game as lee as 1/1/1 and then win game, if you personally dont win the early game as lee sin the game is over 80% of the times, and the ONLY thing you can do is suicide jumps to insec people. This is not a good champion right now, maybe one day when meta speeds up but not today, today every other meta jungle kitten on him big time.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @UNOwen.7132 Listen, I played league of 10 years now, when you see as "buffs" are most recent stuff. I mean ALL the buffs, he got over last like ~ 5 years.

    Ive been playing it since beta. The other buffs were the exact same. At no point was Lee buffed because he needed buffs, because at no point in the games history did Lee ever need buffs.

    They were needed, right now he is middle tier jungler at best, high effort low reward champion thats only good when you master him, do you know what is also good? everything else that you master. Winrates MATTER you just need to be able to intercept them.

    Win rates do NOT matter. Its as simple as that. Its a meaningless statistic that is utterly worthless. Yes if the champ is hard, he should only be good when you have learned him. Thats the point of hard champs. Otherwise you might as well delete all your easy champs.

    for example, Dia + lee sits at under 47% winrate.
    master + still 47% winrate
    grandmaster wtill 47%
    challenger ( best of the best ) still 47%.
    what does that tell us? champion sucks, its not him sucking in low rank since its legit top 0,01% of the playerbase that still cant make him work.

    Yeah just like Kassadins 45% win rate told us that he sucked. .... when he was the most broken champ the game had ever seen with a 95% ban rate. Huh. Well how about Azir, who had a 44% win rate while being broken to the point of being P/B in competitive and close to it in high elo. On the other hand a champion so bad, that the troll tier in tier lists was named after him (good old Heimerdinger) had a consistent 55+% win rate. You start to see the issue, dont you? These are just examples of why win rate is worthless. If you want me to elaborate why win rate is worthless specifically using statistics, Ill be glad to.

    You would know that if you ever played with or against those people. Those people will abuse and and all things they can, lee sin has BIG flaws in his kit, scaling issue, huge reliance on one skillshot and in general he is FORCED to win early game or the game is done.

    No high elo player would ever take you seriously if you said Lee has big flaws, because he doesnt. Thats why he is so insanely popular. He doesnt have a scaling issue, this is just a popular misconception. While Lee falls off, thats only true because his early game is utterly absurd. His lategame is still good. He has incredibly pick potential, can assassinate targets even with a bruiser build (thanks to his Q being a basic skill that outdamages all but 3 ad ults) and is insanely safe. Were not talking Katarina who craters in win rate as the game goes on here.

    This is not low rankings where you go through early game as lee as 1/1/1 and then win game, if you personally dont win the early game as lee sin the game is over 80% of the times, and the ONLY thing you can do is suicide jumps to insec people. This is not a good champion right now, maybe one day when meta speeds up but not today, today every other meta jungle kitten on him big time.

    Its not at all. As I said, Lee Sin is still good lategame. Even if he is behind he is incredibly safe, has great pick potential and thanks to having ridiculously overtuned damage can still assassinate out of position people (basically he bursts harder than Talon with less AD). He was just nerfed, and that may be why he isnt doing as insane as before, but even now he is a highly contested jungler (which is to say: Good).