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Revive Celestial Gears by Adding Concentration and Expertise


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Out of nearly 40 PvE attribute combinations we have, only a handful is commonly used along players and less utilized in niche builds. The rest are just there collecting dusts, and Celestial has certainly been one of the neglected majority. Maybe by adding these two new attributes, we can see the rehabilitation of its usage, as back in 2012-2014? Anet please!

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Wait, wouldn't that be overpowered? Expertise and concentration scales extremely good compared to rest of the stats.

Maybe it would be better like this: if a celestial piece gives 50 power 50 precision etc, it would give 25 expertise and 25 concentration in addition. Not 50 each but 50 in total.

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@Tayga.3192 said:Wait, wouldn't that be overpowered? Expertise and concentration scales extremely good compared to rest of the stats.

Not in PvE since people will eventually go for meta setups for organized contents. As for open world contents, balance is not really of concern. And I'd argue that it would not be OP in WvW group combat either due to the prevalence of stripping, cleansing and conversion.

The only two scenarios which might be of concern is WvW small scale roaming, which is already long broken and really not the emphasis of the game mode, and structured PvP, which possess an additional array of attribute combinations (more than 10) for Celestial to compete against. And for reference, not a single existing PvP build on metabattle.com utilizes Celestial.

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@Virtuality.8351 said:Not in PvE since people will eventually go for meta setups for organized contents. As for open world contents, balance is not really of concern.I agree with these.

And I'd argue that it would not be OP in WvW group combat either due to the prevalence of stripping, cleansing and conversion.Minstrels are already very good I agree.

The only two scenarios which might be of concern is WvW small scale roaming, which is already long broken and really not the emphasis of the game mode,This is my main concern. It's not the main focus but it's still an important part. Also, as you said cele will not be used anywhere. Where do you plan to use it if not roaming?

and structured PvP, which possess an additional array of attribute combinations (more than 10) for Celestial to compete against. And for reference, not a single existing PvP build on metabattle.com utilizes Celestial.sPvP has its own stats irrelevant to pve/wvw so that's not really relevant imo, they also removed concen and expertise amulets from pvp.

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@Tayga.3192 said:

@"Virtuality.8351" said:The only two scenarios which might be of concern is WvW small scale roaming, which is already long broken and really not the emphasis of the game mode,This is my main concern. It's not the main focus but it's still an important part. Also, as you said cele will not be used anywhere. Where do you plan to use it if not roaming?

Most builds would lack the necessary DPS or damage spike to kill an opponent with Celestial, so it will hardly be OP in that sense. At best the combination will shine in attrition combat. However, attrition takes time, and in WvW when combat lasts for too long, chances are that someone would swoops in on the warclaw to gank you, or your allies swoop in to gank your opponents. And even if you find yourself in a fair fight that is not intervened, be it equal number or you tanking multiple opponents yourself, chances are that your opponents will disengage and reset the moment they find that they cannot win in the attrition against you. That is what I mean by the term "broken".

Any build that is geared in Celestial will not likely be overpowered in the sense of its burst potential, and will likely expose itself to the broken aspect of the game mode. That is why I do not consider it of much concern.

If I remember correctly, I said something equivalent to that Celestial is nearly not used anywhere, instead of that it will not be used anywhere. For me, personally, I plan to use it in open world PvE contents with my Tempest.

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@"Tayga.3192" said:Wait, wouldn't that be overpowered?Not in PvE at least. Celestial in PvE is just that bad. Total number of points it gives is irrelevant in a game where hybrid builds are severely inferior to specialized ones. And while Celestial may be "jack of all trades", what truly matters in the end is that it is "master of none".

As for WvW, the only place where a slight potential for it to be useful remains, hybrid combinations of 3- or 4-stat builds would still probably be better, as they would be able to achieve higher values in key stats. So, they might become useful, but OP? I don't think so.

As it is now, Celestial is mostly a waste of effort even as ascended. And its exotic version, with its timegated crafting, is currently a massive joke.

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Celestial will never be used in PVE so long as it is split across all stats (mainly due to toughness).It is used in WVW already on cele scourges and in theory it could be used on firebrands as well since heal scaling past ~600 heal power is low anyway (you retain 70-80% effectiveness with ~600 heal power).

It's +639 with full ascended (trinkets/weapon/armor) which results in an additional 42.6% boon duration and condition duration if the same stat number is used as the other stats. This is just a bit above the minor on a 4-stat combination (which would have +633 for a full set i.e. marauder or minstrel's).

The current variant cele scourge would gain +21% (314 concentration/expertise) boon and condition duration from trinkets.


In the context of WvW, the 4 major stats from keep bonuses are Power , Precision , Toughness , and Vitality. Condition damage is not a keep bonus and neither is healing power but if they were removed there is not much point in running celestial in WvW, plus the efficacy would be low in PvE regardless because toughness is generally unwanted. Of the 7 stats , the biggest candidate for rebalance into expertise/concentration is ferocity.

Concentration, Expertise , Ferocity are always secondary stats. In fact Concentration and Expertise did not exist, it used to be flat boon duration for the jewels and giver's gear.

Sigil of the Stars doesn't add to Concentration and Expertise either. Only last year did rune of the revenant & divinity add to expertise and concentration.

If Concentration and Expertise were added it would have to be something like 15-20% for full set (armor/trinkets/weapon) if kept split the way it is now rather than something ridiculous like 40%+ which is basically exceeding a rune of nightmare (20%) or leadership rune (25%).

An alternative would be to reapportion secondary stats such as ferocity/concentration/expertise into a secondary pool of stats, such that you have+633 for power, precision, condition damage , healing power , vitality, toughness~ +225 for expertise, concentration , ferocityThe total is ~4.4K

That would make it more suited for condition hybrid builds when run mixed with other pieces and even less suited for power builds. Your typical 4 stat set has +1172 for the major stats and +633 for minor stats. The total stats adds up ~3.6K. (For 3 stat items the total is +1381 and +961 for minor stat , total stats adds up ~ 3.3K.)

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@Tayga.3192 said:Wait, wouldn't that be overpowered? Expertise and concentration scales extremely good compared to rest of the stats.

Maybe it would be better like this: if a celestial piece gives 50 power 50 precision etc, it would give 25 expertise and 25 concentration in addition. Not 50 each but 50 in total.

Nope, because their stats would be lowered even further, like when they got Ferocity. Making them even worse than they are now. They would be all over the place, with all the downsides of a jack of all trades and none of the upsides.

Instead giving Celestial gear all stats so they get 9 and getting lowered stats in exchange, they should reduce the stats of Celestial gear to 6, and introduce a new 6-stat combination for each major release which would be able to have higher stats.

Something like:

  • Core Tyria: Celestial - Power, Precision, Vitality, Toughness, Healing, Concentration
  • Heart of Thorns: Draconic - Power, Precision, Vitality, Toughness, Ferocity, Condition damage
  • Path of Fire: Godly - Power, Precision, Vitality, Toughness, Healing, Condition damage
  • End of Dragons: Demonic - Power, Precision, Vitality, Toughness, Condition damage, Expertise
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Core Tyria: Celestial - Power, Precision, Vitality, Toughness, Healing, ConcentrationThat looks a lot like PVP Paladin Amulet. If the stats were split evenly you'd still have a problem because it would be ~750 per stat with the current stat totals.

@MithranArkanere.8957 , what would you think if instead the following were done to make it remotely competitive in PVE:All stats that are semi-useless when below +300 for a full set are major stats:~ +750 for power, precision, condition damage , healing power (4 stats)~ +300 for vitality, toughness, expertise, concentration , ferocity (5 stats)Total stats ~ 4.5K (roughly same as current total which is 639 x 7 stats)

Because someone likely running celestial is basically not going to run a pure power build, for a Berserker rune setup the following would occur:1850 power , 41% crit chance with 170% crit damage , 925 condition damage with 20% condition duration , 750 healing power

I could see this possibly being used on an openworld sword weaver , condi revenant, or holo with burning/bleeding as it is more potent than grieving if 50% of damage is from burning.

Why < 300 toughness? A full ascended heavy armor is 2271 armor while a light armor class has 1967. In addition, the typical WvW build that runs marauder with 2 cavalier trinket or ring pieces is adding ~+220-250 toughness.

A more aggressive approach would be something akin to:~ +850 for power, precision, condition damage , healing power (4 stats)~ +225 for vitality, toughness, expertise, concentration , ferocity (5 stats) ---> compared to a 4 stat you would be splitting the minor stats 5 ways rather than 2Total stats ~ 4.5K

With a Berserker rune the following would occur:1950 power , 45% crit chance with 165% crit damage , 1025 condition damage with 15% condition duration , 850 healing power

That would likely be competitive with harrier when a large amount of boon duration isn't required. Harrier has +961 heal power before runes and traits.

Even more aggressive than that , you would have something that has innately high crit chance dropping the precision as a major stat:~ +1000 for power, condition damage , healing power (3 stats)~ +225 for vitality, toughness, precision, expertise, concentration , ferocity (6 stats)Total stats ~ 4.4K

With a Berserker rune the following would occur:2000 power , ~16% crit chance with 165% crit damage , 1175 condition damage with 15% condition duration , 1000 healing power

Anything above +1000 would be excessive due to the current allocation of +1172 for major stats on a 4 stat and +1381 / +961 for a 3 stat core tyria choice.

The overall outlook would be as follows:+1381 , +961 minor x2 = 3 stat baseline --- total stats ~3.3K+1172 (~85%) major x2 , +633 minor x2 (~66%) = 4 stat --- total stats ~3.6K+1000 (~72%) major x3 , +225 minor x6 (~23%) = cele rebalance <--- aggressive option #2+850 (~61%) major x4 , +225 minor x5 (~23%) = cele rebalance <--- aggressive option #1+750 (~54%) major x4 , +300 minor x5 (~31%) = cele rebalance --- total stats ~4.5K+639 all stats except for concentration & expertise (46% vs major and 66% vs 3 stat minor) = cele currently in a full set --- total stats 4,473

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@Infusion.7149 said:Celestial will never be used in PVE so long as it is split across all stats (mainly due to toughness).It is used in WVW already on cele scourges and in theory it could be used on firebrands as well since heal scaling past ~600 heal power is low anyway (you retain 70-80% effectiveness with ~600 heal power).

It's +639 with full ascended (trinkets/weapon/armor) which results in an additional 42.6% boon duration and condition duration if the same stat number is used as the other stats. This is just a bit above the minor on a 4-stat combination (which would have +633 for a full set i.e. marauder or minstrel's).

The current variant cele scourge would gain +21% (314 concentration/expertise) boon and condition duration from trinkets.

I have never played Celestial Scourge in WvW, but I wonder if the duration for boon and condition really matters that much. After all, they are stripped and reapplied so freqently that the enhancement just does not seem to me impactful.Of course there are exceptions where boon duration matters. For example, if you are pumping out Stability for your group, you'd better get some boon duration gears, since Stability is comparably much less frequently refreshed and thus easily screened from stripping/corruption by other boons that refresh much more often. In such a case boon duration can really come into play. But for Scourge I just do not see anything comparable.

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Cele scourge runs Trail of Anguish (same as on Power scourge), which applies stability and swiftness. It would also increase any might gain durations , burn durations (they're typically short enough and from guardians often enough that cleanse isn't as viable unless you know the burn is from a person running high condi damage), and lengthen (possibly unblockable) chill from staff if it is run.

As I mentioned above, it's probably better that celestial keeps focus on 3-4 main stats and then lump all the other ones (ferocity, toughness, concentration, expertise) as even lower bonus minor stats. I suspect if the minstrel main stats were vitality + toughness (as opposed to toughness and healing) people would not run it as much , see nomad's which is toughness with vitality + healing power.

The way I see it a +639 condition damage bonus with +42% duration for a full set isn't as useful as +750 with 30% duration or +1000 with 20-25% duration.For example, burning per stack would be 230 damage (326 if you count duration) , 247 (321 if you count duration) , and 286 (343 to 357.5 if you count duration) respectively.Bleeding per stack would be 60 damage (86 if you count duration), 67 (87 if you count duration) , and 82 (98 to 103 if you count duration) respectively. This means in both scenarios of conditions (short bursty burning or long duration bleeding) it is better off to have a shorter duration and a higher condition damage (breakpoints are 655 condition damage for burning , 1146 for torment, and 1133 for bleeding). That's why it is normal to see grieving in WvW and not in PVE sustained fights such as raids.

Overall the total stat bonus should probably be lower if the major stat value is higher, however.

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@"Infusion.7149" said:Cele scourge runs Trail of Anguish (same as on Power scourge), which applies stability and swiftness.

As I mentioned I have very little experience with Scourge, so pardon me if this sounds ignorant, but I am skeptical of the efficacy of additional boon duration for Stability since it is single stack and can easily be ripped off.

It would also increase any might gain durations , burn durations (they're typically short enough and from guardians often enough that cleanse isn't as viable unless you know the burn is from a person running high condi damage), and lengthen (possibly unblockable) chill from staff if it is run.

This is the part that I do not understand.

Mechanically, conditions from all sources are sorted into the same pool based on each their own type. That is, the Burning effect a dedicated Burn Dragonhunter applies is stacked with the Burning effect their Heal/Support Firebrand fellows apply, and both will be cleansed together with a single cleansing skill. Furthermore, cleansing and conversion prioritize newly (re)applied condition types. Therefore, in a group vs group scenario, the more often a condition is reapplied, the more likely it is cleansed compared with other conditions. (And this is also true for Might and other boons of course.)

And therefore, if you are running a condition build in a zerg fight, you'd prefer major conditions either to be short but able to be reapplied at an insane rate so that you still get ticks in-between the tiny cleansing gaps (This is, at least if I understand correctly, how Burn Guard works; the build simply does not give a damn about condition duration), or you want your condition to be uncommon and thus not as frequently reapplied and thus less likely cleansed. That is, there are overall very limited skills and traits across all classes with access to your major conditions. They probably should not be present in the conversion table either, or at least their respective boons should be just as uncommon. This is why despite all the cleansing, chilling and immobilization is at least comparably so much more effective in a group fight. Chances are just that they might get screened by multiple other reapplied condition types the moment they are inflicted on your opponents.

The way I see it a +639 condition damage bonus with +42% duration for a full set isn't as useful as +750 with 30% duration or +1000 with 20-25% duration.For example, burning per stack would be 230 damage (326 if you count duration) , 247 (321 if you count duration) , and 286 (343 to 357.5 if you count duration) respectively.Bleeding per stack would be 60 damage (86 if you count duration), 67 (87 if you count duration) , and 82 (98 to 103 if you count duration) respectively. This means in both scenarios of conditions (short bursty burning or long duration bleeding) it is better off to have a shorter duration and a higher condition damage (breakpoints are 655 condition damage for burning , 1146 for torment, and 1133 for bleeding). That's why it is normal to see grieving in WvW and not in PVE sustained fights such as raids.

Also notice that, the condition must last through the tick in order to deal damage. If it get cleansed without making it to the tick, no damage will be done. So even if it were an uncommon condition type, the additional fractions of second derived from a 1 s to 2 s base duration is pointless. Not to mention it is a common type. The chance for it to last for a second tick without getting cleansed is just so small and even if it does the damage will only be a fraction of a full tick. And this is also another reason why chilling and immobilization excel in the scenario. They come into effect the moment they are applied on your opponents.

All in all, Burning duration enhancement for Scourge makes little sense to me. It is a condition type that is so frequently reapplied and removed that I just do not see much benefit coming out of the duration.

That being said though, this is all theoretical but empirical. I'd very like to learn the overall percentage of damage done by Burning and spike potential of this condition in real fight and make more accurate assessment from there. But for now, I see no way adding 42% boon and condition duration would make Celestial Scourge perform significantly better in WvW.

Overall the total stat bonus should probably be lower if the major stat value is higher, however.

Agreed.

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As I stated above, currently it's half celestial. It is not full celestial , so it gains ~21% duration on both boons and conditions for free (key thing) if the same 639 stats were added for a full set.

The burn guard running virtues basically relies on AOE symbols to proc burning (there's no internal cooldown on permeating wrath). Because you'd only need to hit 3 targets per tick to proc burning it's fairly trivial in a group scenario vs PvP for example. That's not to say it doesn't run burn duration, most people run Balthazar rune and/or smoldering sigils.

There's also nothing stopping people from running celestial on firebrands or flamethrower meme scrappers (partly or full set) either if the huge amount of boon & condition duration is added. 42% is almost as much as an entire Balthazar rune, to put it into perspective. That'd nearly triple the minstrel FB damage while packing ~70-80% of the effective healing (not healing power).

If you recall, a while back we had soldier's AH core guard followed by cele guardians.

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