No, HoT should not be further nerfed. It is not meant to be the regular power fantasy. — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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No, HoT should not be further nerfed. It is not meant to be the regular power fantasy.

Virtuality.8351Virtuality.8351 Member ✭✭✭
edited September 7, 2020 in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Originally a response posted under the thread "HoT = Dark Souls ? Casual Gamer perspective.". Though since I took the time to write this up, I think I might as well start another thread here and see how people feel about it.

-

Late for the discussion, and I do not mean to criticize, but I think the "Dark Souls" single-player-game analogue tells something.

For me, the entire HoT experience was about having a group of people (be it friends, guildies or random pugs) working, exploring, fighting and surviving together in a hazardous area toward common objectives. The contents never seem to me intended to be solo-ed, and the difficulty actually promotes collaboration between players—just look at how much more often someone puts on a commander/mentor tag in Heart of Maguuma compared with in other areas, or how much more often someone request for help in map chat.

And while this is all gonna sound like "it's not a bug but a feature", do hear me out.

The expansion is supposed to be the anti-power-fantasy after the huge fiasco the Pact just experienced during the initial stage of their expedition into Maguuma, where you end up having to navigate yourself through debris, wreckage, and uncharted territory of dense tropical vegetation. You are supposed to feel powerless. The expansion is the GW2 version of Vietnam War, where the military might and air superiority ultimately fail, and you as a soldier on the ground alone with a broken command chain (or rather, at least in the story, the second-in-command with a shattered force) have to figure out everything yourself. That means, to communicate, to organize and to coordinate and work with whatever of the army is left—or in effect, marking yourself on the map and speaking up in party/guild/map channel a lot.

And to further add to that: the VB night meta (and also the daytime meta before rework) is in my opinion one of the best community content in the game. Yes, compared with other contents, it takes massive effort to coordinate when everyone basically scatters all over the map. Heck, it might even take a guild just to do that. But there is also beauty in it. In fact, all HoT maps have the same vibe.

And despite the difficulty, players make progress too. I do not mean just that you gradually learn new skills and traits along the struggle, but in a greater sense. For example, in VB, players have 5 outposts to guard, each with multiple camp sites around to be defended. Everything requires organization by the community. In AB and TD though, things are getting better and players are separated into only 4 divisions for the meta events. In DS there are only 3 lanes left (though originally planned to be 4 and later cut to 3 due to budget and schedule limitation). The effort ArenaNet put in to tell the story via all possible means to me is just a rarity in all MMORPGs, and as long as one gets through the initial stage, they can definitely appreciate it.

All these being said though, I did have friends who could not stand the frustration and quit the game entirely. So in another way I can feel the pain. HoT was certainly not the best daily recreation after work, considering just how much frustration it can bring, but probably something to be emerged in for several dedicated hours, say during the weekend, to properly experience it. After all, this was the first time ever in GW2 that the open world feels dangerous, and the content was definitely not designed for players who prefer to solo everything they encounter. However, it still seems to me that to further reduce the difficulty—be it the mobs, the navigation, the hero point or the boss fight—would only destroy the vibe that the game tries to tell through every mechanic and interaction with the players as part of the storytelling.

So, please, don't make HoT maps any bit less hardcore. It is supposed to be this way and should remain as it is.

<134

Comments

  • Blude.6812Blude.6812 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 7, 2020

    Ah, sorry you are not getting the content that YOU want. If just fine for what I would consider most players. I am sure that there are many ways you can make content harder for yourself without negatively impacting others. I also wonder what insight into the devs mind you have to proclaim what hot is 'supposed' to be. Drizzlewood might be more to your liking, (not mine btw).

  • Astyrah.4015Astyrah.4015 Member ✭✭✭✭

    HoT is easy to solo (like roaming around and/or doing metas+events without a group) as-is right now, so agree, no need to nerf it.

    even champs and HPs are lazily solo-able if you have certain builds like that staff condi mirage or reaper with minions.

  • Ototo.3214Ototo.3214 Member ✭✭✭

    Agreed. I dont think HoT needs to be nerfed any more than it has been.

    The only issue I've ever really had with HoT is how the metas are on a set schedule instead of just progressing as you complete stuff. I understand that VB kinda has to be on a achedule due to the day night cycle, but AB and TD really feel like they should just move on to the big finale meta once you complete all the event chains. I guess it makes sense for DS to be on a timer because of the way it works but I honestly feel like Dragonfall is a superior version of the same sort of idea simply because it's not on a schedule.
    I guess the schedule makes it so you always know when you can just hop in, but a lot of times it feels like people just show up for the main event and mostly ignore the event chains because they aren't really necessary. But I digress because that complaint has nothing to do with the difficulty of the content itself :P

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 7, 2020

    @Virtuality.8351 said:
    I think the "Dark Souls" single-player-game analogue tells something.

    There is no Dark Souls analogy.
    Contrary to the claims of the masses that didn't even try to play it, Dark Souls is not about difficulty.

  • Yggranya.5201Yggranya.5201 Member ✭✭✭

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:
    I agree with the basics of what the OP posted.

    I still struggle to understand why people invest in a MMO then complain about difficulty when they can’t solo all of it.

    I mean, I have no problem with anyone running things solo. That’s your choice.

    But because you [insert personal reason here] there is an expectation that the content be made easier to allow it to be solo’d.

    There is NOTHING easier than getting into a massive zerg where you are just a part of the faceless mass, blasting everything without even the slightest chance of failure (unless it's some map clearing thing, but that isn't difficult, just a poor mechanic). If you die, it doesn't matter, the event itself won't fail. Only reason it could fail, is that over half the zerg is AFKing (which is the norm, but still...)

  • flog.3485flog.3485 Member ✭✭✭

    @Croc.1978 said:
    Yes, difficulty in HoT is fine as it is.

    That said, there's really nothing that prepares players for what awaits them in the green hell before they enter it. They probably intended Silverwastes to be that preparation, but it doesn't work. And nerfing Orr post-release was a mistake.

    I guess the best advise you could give new players now is:

    • play Orr
    • play Silverwastes (not RIBA) for a while
    • start PoF and get at least Raptor with canyon jump
    • enter Verdant Brink

    Other than that, play a bit of PvP.

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Yggranya.5201 said:

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:
    I agree with the basics of what the OP posted.

    I still struggle to understand why people invest in a MMO then complain about difficulty when they can’t solo all of it.

    I mean, I have no problem with anyone running things solo. That’s your choice.

    But because you [insert personal reason here] there is an expectation that the content be made easier to allow it to be solo’d.

    There is NOTHING easier than getting into a massive zerg where you are just a part of the faceless mass, blasting everything without even the slightest chance of failure (unless it's some map clearing thing, but that isn't difficult, just a poor mechanic). If you die, it doesn't matter, the event itself won't fail. Only reason it could fail, is that over half the zerg is AFKing (which is the norm, but still...)

    That is correct.

    It also is more reason not to nerf it for solo’s.

    People generally (with the notable exceptions of young cats) are willing to jump in and assist if they see something going down.

    And if someone doesn’t want help, wait until a meta happens on another map,

    Thank You for the {MEME}

  • Kichwas.7152Kichwas.7152 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 7, 2020

    Anything needed for basic main story progression should be doable by casual players in easy to get 'obvious' gear like soldiers.

    Anything outside of that should be open season for varying levels of difficulty.

    What this means is that I favor any part of open world that is 'off the main roads' being made harder... but anything that you must pass through to get to the next part of the 'story' being kept easy.

    One of the great features of GW1 was the ability to turn on a hard mode - this only works for instanced content though - but it could be added to GW2 in exactly that way... the ability to replay any completed personal story, living story, story or explorable dungeon - on hard mode. Fractals already have a difficulty scale system so no need for it there.

    Just say no to butt-flaps.

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 7, 2020

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Virtuality.8351 said:
    I think the "Dark Souls" single-player-game analogue tells something.

    There is no Dark Souls analogy.
    Contrary to the claims of the masses that didn't even try to play it, Dark Souls is not about difficulty.

    In fact, if you were to min-max Dark Souls the same way some people min-max MMORPGs / GW2 builds, there would be no difficulty left.
    You can 1 or 2 shot most bosses with min-maxxed builds.

    Dark Souls players that want a challenge actually create the challenge themselves, by creating their own challenges (e.g. SL1 runs, only fist runs etc.).
    You barely see that in MMORPGs.

    You have a heart of gold. Don't let them take it from you.
    Remaster confirmed! Umbasa!

  • I agree HoT maps should not be nerfed anymore than at present.

    When I first arrived into the Jungle, boy was that a wake up call. Gear Check and Skill check in your face.

    I leveled my first character by playing solo, no lvl 80 jump for me. So I thought I had a good idea how to play the game. HoT dropped that idea on its' head, stomped on it, shredded it and walked back into the jungle leaving me to wonder if I really wanted to respawn there.

    I kept at it, improved my gear, learned my skills better and found what I enemies I could solo and those I needed to go after when more players were around. Heck those HP trains through the Jungle are very nice. I would usually tag along when I saw one and got what HP I could until the train outran me. No flying mount at that time. I did not let being unable to keep up with the train get me down, I kept playing and eventually got my character(s) to where they can hold their own in the jungle most of the time.

  • Yggranya.5201Yggranya.5201 Member ✭✭✭

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    @Yggranya.5201 said:

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:
    I agree with the basics of what the OP posted.

    I still struggle to understand why people invest in a MMO then complain about difficulty when they can’t solo all of it.

    I mean, I have no problem with anyone running things solo. That’s your choice.

    But because you [insert personal reason here] there is an expectation that the content be made easier to allow it to be solo’d.

    There is NOTHING easier than getting into a massive zerg where you are just a part of the faceless mass, blasting everything without even the slightest chance of failure (unless it's some map clearing thing, but that isn't difficult, just a poor mechanic). If you die, it doesn't matter, the event itself won't fail. Only reason it could fail, is that over half the zerg is AFKing (which is the norm, but still...)

    That is correct.

    It also is more reason not to nerf it for solo’s.

    People generally (with the notable exceptions of young cats) are willing to jump in and assist if they see something going down.

    And if someone doesn’t want help, wait until a meta happens on another map,

    Because developers, of course, want to design the game for a wider audience, there really can't be too much difficulty, unless the game was specifically designed and advertised for that. Isn't the "challenge" the entire reason the raids exist? Would be pretty dumb to just say to perhaps most of the playerbase "open world isn't for you, unless you get a team together". It's true that when you do one thing, like raids, over and over it gets dull, but not like there are other options and that is what all thing in MMOs are anyway. More or less, just grinding.

  • ASP.8093ASP.8093 Member ✭✭✭

    @Yggranya.5201 said:
    Would be pretty dumb to just say to perhaps most of the playerbase "open world isn't for you, unless you get a team together".

    That seems like an exceedingly low opinion — and exceedingly low expectations — of the average player.

  • Yggranya.5201Yggranya.5201 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 8, 2020

    @ASP.8093 said:

    @Yggranya.5201 said:
    Would be pretty dumb to just say to perhaps most of the playerbase "open world isn't for you, unless you get a team together".

    That seems like an exceedingly low opinion — and exceedingly low expectations — of the average player.

    Well, nobody could AFK anymore. I guess that's something. Or if they do, no rewards as you die over and over, so it might inspire people to try and play properly at least. Or then they would just leave, which means i doubt anet would even consider doing anything like this. If it isn't clear: yes, my opinion on people in general is as low as it can get.

  • Tazer.2157Tazer.2157 Member ✭✭✭

    I’d agree, but nerf the quest where we are asked to steal the wyern eggs for the Itzel tribe. It’s one of the most annoying event in the game which is purposely made harder than it needs to be.

  • Tukaram.8256Tukaram.8256 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 8, 2020

    Y'all are talking about HoT being nerfed 'more'. Has it been nerfed some already? Honestly I did not enjoy it and have not gone back to it in a couple years. Pretty much got my glider and left. If it has been nerfed, I may go check it out again.

    ~Edit~ but my main issue was not the critter difficulty but the horrid map layout. The multi level map, I can do without.

  • Wanting some content to feel like you are playing an actual MMO where you have to interact with people in order to succeed is not a crazy suggestion.

  • Palador.2170Palador.2170 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tukaram.8256 said:
    Y'all are talking about HoT being nerfed 'more'. Has it been nerfed some already? Honestly I did not enjoy it and have not gone back to it in a couple years. Pretty much got my glider and left. If it has been nerfed, I may go check it out again.

    ~Edit~ but my main issue was not the critter difficulty but the horrid map layout. The multi level map, I can do without.

    This right here brings up a good point. For a lot of us (myself included), it's not the difficulty of the events that made us dislike the area. It's the map itself, and getting around in it.

    If they could provide a better/improved mini-map or something else to help you get from Point A to Point B in a better manner, the maps would become "easier" without making the actual events easier. Best of both worlds, I think. Such an improvement could also be applied going forward, allowing more complex maps without the problems that HoT players faced due to those maps, opening up more complex map options for the devs.

    Lip synching is just mime karaoke.

  • Astyrah.4015Astyrah.4015 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Palador.2170 said:

    @Tukaram.8256 said:
    Y'all are talking about HoT being nerfed 'more'. Has it been nerfed some already? Honestly I did not enjoy it and have not gone back to it in a couple years. Pretty much got my glider and left. If it has been nerfed, I may go check it out again.

    ~Edit~ but my main issue was not the critter difficulty but the horrid map layout. The multi level map, I can do without.

    This right here brings up a good point. For a lot of us (myself included), it's not the difficulty of the events that made us dislike the area. It's the map itself, and getting around in it.

    If they could provide a better/improved mini-map or something else to help you get from Point A to Point B in a better manner, the maps would become "easier" without making the actual events easier. Best of both worlds, I think. Such an improvement could also be applied going forward, allowing more complex maps without the problems that HoT players faced due to those maps, opening up more complex map options for the devs.

    only Tangled Depths is guilty of being multi-leveled to the point where it's annoying (not at all difficult, since you can just google) when trying to get that last POI since you can't remember if it was under ground or above ground but other than that there isn't any issue with how HoT was laid out.

    Auric Basin and Dragon's Stand are pretty "flat" and Verdant Brink is pretty "flat" too just with some bottomless pits of death here and there -- the sky islands on VB isn't much of an issue and is only relevant during night meta or map completion -- and most of VB is made pretty much trivial because of the air-rescue and bond of vigor masteries + skyscale mount

    -and-

    @Tukaram.8256 said:
    Has it been nerfed some already? Honestly I did not enjoy it and have not gone back to it in a couple years. Pretty much got my glider and left. If it has been nerfed, I may go check it out again.

    if the environment is your issue, then sadly, there isn't any fix for it. they most likely wont redesign HoT maps for you and especially not after so many years since HoT launch.

    many mmorpgs i've played only nerfed items/monster/objects(interactables)/stats but never environments unless it was game breaking enough and even then it was just minor landscape changes nothing that adds shortcuts or makes traversing the environment easier (if it was ever complicated/hard). most of environmental "nerfs" have been in the form of invisible walls tbh (so people would stop going out of bounds)

  • @Palador.2170 said:

    @Tukaram.8256 said:
    Y'all are talking about HoT being nerfed 'more'. Has it been nerfed some already? Honestly I did not enjoy it and have not gone back to it in a couple years. Pretty much got my glider and left. If it has been nerfed, I may go check it out again.

    ~Edit~ but my main issue was not the critter difficulty but the horrid map layout. The multi level map, I can do without.

    This right here brings up a good point. For a lot of us (myself included), it's not the difficulty of the events that made us dislike the area. It's the map itself, and getting around in it.

    If they could provide a better/improved mini-map or something else to help you get from Point A to Point B in a better manner, the maps would become "easier" without making the actual events easier. Best of both worlds, I think. Such an improvement could also be applied going forward, allowing more complex maps without the problems that HoT players faced due to those maps, opening up more complex map options for the devs.

    I loved exploring these maps, in particular tangled depths and verdant brink. The maps function adequately, but could certainly improved. However, I think it was the clear intention of the developers that these maps present a true exploration challenge.

    For example, the path one takes to get to the vampire broodmother HP in verdant brink. The map shows you pretty clearly where this objective is located. However, because you approach it from the opposite side of the map using a combination of vines, floating islands, updrafts, and bounce mushrooms, there is no intuitive way to determine the route beyond the basic assumption that anything in the canopy may be reached in this way.

    It was clearly intended that players discover this path by climbing to the top of a plateau, using a bounce mushroom which seemingly leads nowhere, and asking the question: Is there maybe something more up here than first appears? It was a theme of HoT's design. A true exploration challenge! Put your map down and open your eyes!

    I love that aspect of HoT as much as I enjoy the combat. However, many players did find it frustrating and I don't think it would ruin the experience to have a better map.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    We asked for more group content in core, HoT was the dev's listening to the feedback given and giving us what we asked for albeit not in the ways we asked for it. I honestly think it was their attempt at pushing people to use the squad tool in PvE as it had no need to be used prior; World bosses were freaky easy and as such I really don't think most of the game required play at higher levels.

    Now HoT still stands out, and Im hoping End of Dragons will offer a richer PvE experience but not in bulk. (Im honestly hoping End of Dragons is our WvW/PvP expansion similarly to how factions was for GW1. Im hoping beyond hope they provide WvW with a new map, bring edge of the mists in as a map and put maps on a rotation where each week the maps shift and change to represent the ever changing nature of the mists. Im hoping for GvG and so on and Im even hoping for playable tengu, likely we won't get any of that and it will be another poopy expansion like PoF but... time will tell.)

  • @Blude.6812 said:
    Ah, sorry you are not getting the content that YOU want. If just fine for what I would consider most players. I am sure that there are many ways you can make content harder for yourself without negatively impacting others. I also wonder what insight into the devs mind you have to proclaim what hot is 'supposed' to be. Drizzlewood might be more to your liking, (not mine btw).

    It's not about what HE likes, the HoT content was originally harder and was nerfed. So, forcefully being made easier negatively impacts OUR experience as well.

  • Hashberry.4510Hashberry.4510 Member ✭✭✭✭

    HoT has been nerfed significantly by mounts. Too much so, I wish the pocket raptors would tear you down if you were cocky enough to charge through them.

  • Hashberry.4510Hashberry.4510 Member ✭✭✭✭

    And btw, if you use stacking sigils, pocket raptors are a blessing, wish they were on every map.

  • Cerioth.7062Cerioth.7062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I definitely agree with the starter post. HoT is a great experience, and every encounter you find in there is FAIR. Even all the HP challenges can be perfectly soloable - just use the enemies' weaknesses against them.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 10, 2020

    I agree with some, but not with others.

    Hero points are okay the way they are.
    No issues in navigation except TD. For me it is okay, but I know how incredibly frustrating it is for a new player going through it.
    No issues moderm units.
    No issues with Itzal, though I do not see why an evade does significant damage. Fighting one is easy. Fighting 2 while fighting other mobs exposed how poorly designed the concept is.
    Chack damage when you attack them is bad design.

    Btw, there are mobs in PoF that are stronger than anything HoT has, like all three Djins mobs. The charging forged. Also, go to the Forged area in crystal oasis. The human forged with ranged CC plus tons of mobs. You have the branded human. Ranged very strong damage. The only difference PoF mainly island content and repeatable dailies, so you can go though while barely fighting any of this stuff.

    Also, white mantle. Not a single strong mob, but combined between the mesmers and sorcs they are harder than most mob combination in HoT. Branded in groups can also be a pain to fight.

    And no HoT is not hard. Not even remotely. But For some reason it keep getting branded for high difficulty even though there is harder stuff in other places. Though I understand new player frustration trying to get HPs.

  • Einlanzer.1627Einlanzer.1627 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 10, 2020

    Yeah, I think part of the problem is the core game is too easy now after years of balance creep and scaling adjustments. And I think this is an issue. For anyone who doesn't really suck, combat feels very, very bland and uninteresting all the way from 1-80.

    Honestly, I kind of think they should reduce the # of levels to 50 or so, slow down the leveling speed a little, and really tighten up monster stats and AI throughout core. I think it would be a manageable effort and would do the game a lot of good.

    I don't actually have a problem with HoT's difficulty. I kind of have a problem with PoF's difficulty because the maps are designed more for casual exploration than they are for coordinated meta efforts. So if either expansion needs a nerf, it's PoF.

    I also think they really dropped the ball by not spending some time polishing the core experience before rolling out to steam.

  • Astyrah.4015Astyrah.4015 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @otto.5684 said:
    Also, white mantle. Not a single strong mob, but combined between the mesmers and sorcs they are harder than most mob combination in HoT. Branded in groups can also be a pain to fight.

    i hate fighting white mantle. not because they're hard but because they're soo annoying... but still, i don't want them nerfed they serve their purpose and makes destroying their order in the season 3 story much much more fulfilling

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astyrah.4015 said:

    @otto.5684 said:
    Also, white mantle. Not a single strong mob, but combined between the mesmers and sorcs they are harder than most mob combination in HoT. Branded in groups can also be a pain to fight.

    i hate fighting white mantle. not because they're hard but because they're soo annoying... but still, i don't want them nerfed they serve their purpose and makes destroying their order in the season 3 story much much more fulfilling

    Same here. I do not think they should get nerfed. But this highlight that there areas as difficult or more difficult than HoT. Yet people still complain about HoT.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Einlanzer.1627 said:
    I also think they really dropped the ball by not spending some time polishing the core experience before rolling out to steam.

    The Steam release is in 2 months, don't rule out any changes to the core game until then. I'll be very surprised if they release the game on steam as is.

  • Ultramex.1506Ultramex.1506 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 10, 2020

    People just need to get better, no! I'm not saying this as an elite, but someone who is willing to learn from past mistake to improve, dumbing everything down further won't encourage growth.
    Having trouble beating an enemy? See what you did wrong and learn the enemy attack pattern, for example: smokescale! Either block or double evade and when it use smoke just lure it out!
    Although i must say, enemies in HoT are easier with range than melee, except for that frog which has been nerfed

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ultramex.1506 said:
    People just need to get better, no! I'm not saying this as an elite, but someone who is willing to learn from past mistake to improve, dumbing everything down further won't encourage growth.
    Having trouble beating an enemy? See what you did wrong and learn the enemy attack pattern, for example: smokescale! Either block or double evade and when it use smoke just lure it out!
    Although i must say, enemies in HoT are easier with range than melee, except for that frog which has been nerfed

    There is a large segment of the populace (large, not majority..) that likes to be able to stand still in the game in the middle of areas with enemy creatures without dying while they [fill in blank with alt-tab, message friends, check map etc]

    People attach a large significant to dying in game. Because of course reasons.

    There are complaints about the aggro range in PoF maps....

    It truly seems as if people only want to auto attack and not worry about mechanics or focus.

    They just want to move on to the next area.

    Thank You for the {MEME}

  • Astyrah.4015Astyrah.4015 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:
    People attach a large significant to dying in game. Because of course reasons.

    i can think of RP as one possible reason maybe? like it breaks character if they die (like say their RP is for "defeated" not to be a thing or like resurrection isn't possible)

    or maybe it's the existence of the /deaths command ?

  • @Astyrah.4015 said:

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:
    People attach a large significant to dying in game. Because of course reasons.

    i can think of RP as one possible reason maybe? like it breaks character if they die (like say their RP is for "defeated" not to be a thing or like resurrection isn't possible)

    or maybe it's the existence of the /deaths command ?

    Well, the aggro ranges in PoF are higher than in core, and some PoF mobs have additionally extended leash ranges on top of it. With leash mechanic having problems since the first day of the game, the consequences aren't very surprising.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    @Ultramex.1506 said:
    People just need to get better, no! I'm not saying this as an elite, but someone who is willing to learn from past mistake to improve, dumbing everything down further won't encourage growth.
    Having trouble beating an enemy? See what you did wrong and learn the enemy attack pattern, for example: smokescale! Either block or double evade and when it use smoke just lure it out!
    Although i must say, enemies in HoT are easier with range than melee, except for that frog which has been nerfed

    There is a large segment of the populace (large, not majority..) that likes to be able to stand still in the game in the middle of areas with enemy creatures without dying while they [fill in blank with alt-tab, message friends, check map etc]

    People attach a large significant to dying in game. Because of course reasons.

    There are complaints about the aggro range in PoF maps....

    It truly seems as if people only want to auto attack and not worry about mechanics or focus.

    They just want to move on to the next area.

    PoF aggro range is a bit of pet peeve of mine. It's not at all about difficulty. It's that you can never get out of combat in PoF. There's always another stupid sand eel or forged sniper 2000 units away that for some reason decided it wants to come after you. I don't want things "easier", but I also don't want to be forced to fight 20 mobs due to chain aggro every time I stop to harvest a node!

    I mean I get it. But being an old school RPG player I am conditioned to go to a town or outpost if I want a break..

    Thank You for the {MEME}

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    @Ultramex.1506 said:
    People just need to get better, no! I'm not saying this as an elite, but someone who is willing to learn from past mistake to improve, dumbing everything down further won't encourage growth.
    Having trouble beating an enemy? See what you did wrong and learn the enemy attack pattern, for example: smokescale! Either block or double evade and when it use smoke just lure it out!
    Although i must say, enemies in HoT are easier with range than melee, except for that frog which has been nerfed

    There is a large segment of the populace (large, not majority..) that likes to be able to stand still in the game in the middle of areas with enemy creatures without dying while they [fill in blank with alt-tab, message friends, check map etc]

    People attach a large significant to dying in game. Because of course reasons.

    There are complaints about the aggro range in PoF maps....

    It truly seems as if people only want to auto attack and not worry about mechanics or focus.

    They just want to move on to the next area.

    PoF aggro range is a bit of pet peeve of mine. It's not at all about difficulty. It's that you can never get out of combat in PoF. There's always another stupid sand eel or forged sniper 2000 units away that for some reason decided it wants to come after you. I don't want things "easier", but I also don't want to be forced to fight 20 mobs due to chain aggro every time I stop to harvest a node!

    I mean I get it. But being an old school RPG player I am conditioned to go to a town or outpost if I want a break..

    Even as an old school RPG player, I never had a constant, continual string of fighting without even a small break. I'm not talking about sorting through the loot and such. Just one fight after another fight after another fight after another fight after..... Not in my RPG experience.

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • Cerioth.7062Cerioth.7062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Honestly most of the issues described here would be fixed by introducing better core game tutorialization that forces you to learn your abilities and counter mobs.

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cerioth.7062 said:
    Honestly most of the issues described here would be fixed by introducing better core game tutorialization that forces you to learn your abilities and counter mobs.

    Perhaps, so, but I don't really like things that are 'forced'. /shrug

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    @Ultramex.1506 said:
    People just need to get better, no! I'm not saying this as an elite, but someone who is willing to learn from past mistake to improve, dumbing everything down further won't encourage growth.
    Having trouble beating an enemy? See what you did wrong and learn the enemy attack pattern, for example: smokescale! Either block or double evade and when it use smoke just lure it out!
    Although i must say, enemies in HoT are easier with range than melee, except for that frog which has been nerfed

    There is a large segment of the populace (large, not majority..) that likes to be able to stand still in the game in the middle of areas with enemy creatures without dying while they [fill in blank with alt-tab, message friends, check map etc]

    People attach a large significant to dying in game. Because of course reasons.

    There are complaints about the aggro range in PoF maps....

    It truly seems as if people only want to auto attack and not worry about mechanics or focus.

    They just want to move on to the next area.

    PoF aggro range is a bit of pet peeve of mine. It's not at all about difficulty. It's that you can never get out of combat in PoF. There's always another stupid sand eel or forged sniper 2000 units away that for some reason decided it wants to come after you. I don't want things "easier", but I also don't want to be forced to fight 20 mobs due to chain aggro every time I stop to harvest a node!

    I mean I get it. But being an old school RPG player I am conditioned to go to a town or outpost if I want a break..

    Even as an old school RPG player, I never had a constant, continual string of fighting without even a small break. I'm not talking about sorting through the loot and such. Just one fight after another fight after another fight after another fight after..... Not in my RPG experience.

    But do you remember being able to just sit in the map, outside of a town or outpost, and do nothing?

    Maybe I just played bad ones lmao..

    I am not trying to besmirch people for their thoughts... And maybe it has come across like that, it’s just cities, waypoints, etc are there for breaks...

    Thank You for the {MEME}

  • Astyrah.4015Astyrah.4015 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 10, 2020

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    @Ultramex.1506 said:
    People just need to get better, no! I'm not saying this as an elite, but someone who is willing to learn from past mistake to improve, dumbing everything down further won't encourage growth.
    Having trouble beating an enemy? See what you did wrong and learn the enemy attack pattern, for example: smokescale! Either block or double evade and when it use smoke just lure it out!
    Although i must say, enemies in HoT are easier with range than melee, except for that frog which has been nerfed

    There is a large segment of the populace (large, not majority..) that likes to be able to stand still in the game in the middle of areas with enemy creatures without dying while they [fill in blank with alt-tab, message friends, check map etc]

    People attach a large significant to dying in game. Because of course reasons.

    There are complaints about the aggro range in PoF maps....

    It truly seems as if people only want to auto attack and not worry about mechanics or focus.

    They just want to move on to the next area.

    PoF aggro range is a bit of pet peeve of mine. It's not at all about difficulty. It's that you can never get out of combat in PoF. There's always another stupid sand eel or forged sniper 2000 units away that for some reason decided it wants to come after you. I don't want things "easier", but I also don't want to be forced to fight 20 mobs due to chain aggro every time I stop to harvest a node!

    I mean I get it. But being an old school RPG player I am conditioned to go to a town or outpost if I want a break..

    Even as an old school RPG player, I never had a constant, continual string of fighting without even a small break. I'm not talking about sorting through the loot and such. Just one fight after another fight after another fight after another fight after..... Not in my RPG experience.

    But do you remember being able to just sit in the map, outside of a town or outpost, and do nothing?

    Maybe I just played bad ones lmao..

    I am not trying to besmirch people for their thoughts... And maybe it has come across like that, it’s just cities, waypoints, etc are there for breaks...

    i played lots of ragnarok online, you can definitely find a safe spot or corner somewhere out in the openworld or in a dungeon where you can sit down to regen your HP and SP (if you were solo and weren't a healer or didn't have a healer party mate) this is also a good time to take a short, 5 to 10minutes break from playing.

    there was still danger though, since mob spawns aren't fixed to a location (the spawns are fixed in number but can spawn anywhere/randomly in the whole map or a wide/predefined area), they weren't anchored to their spawns like in modern mmorpgs (they can freely roam or walk around once spawned), and a few can teleport as part of their idle so there will still be a chance some monster would walk up to you while your character was resting/regen-ing.