No, HoT should not be further nerfed. It is not meant to be the regular power fantasy. - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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No, HoT should not be further nerfed. It is not meant to be the regular power fantasy.

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  • Cerioth.7062Cerioth.7062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @Cerioth.7062 said:
    Honestly most of the issues described here would be fixed by introducing better core game tutorialization that forces you to learn your abilities and counter mobs.

    Perhaps, so, but I don't really like things that are 'forced'. /shrug

    Why even bother playing the game if you do not want to learn its mechanics? How is the game going to make you learn gameplay if you can indefinitely avoid it?

    Obviously it does not have to be a per character thing, can just be once per account thing that you can repeat as needed.

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cerioth.7062 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @Cerioth.7062 said:
    Honestly most of the issues described here would be fixed by introducing better core game tutorialization that forces you to learn your abilities and counter mobs.

    Perhaps, so, but I don't really like things that are 'forced'. /shrug

    Why even bother playing the game if you do not want to learn its mechanics? How is the game going to make you learn gameplay if you can indefinitely avoid it?

    Obviously it does not have to be a per character thing, can just be once per account thing that you can repeat as needed.

    If I were to struggle with content, then I would be forced to learn on my own. Having something in place that forces that on me when the game decides to is not something that I would prefer.

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • Hesione.9412Hesione.9412 Member ✭✭✭

    @Hashberry.4510 said:
    HoT has been nerfed significantly by mounts. Too much so, I wish the pocket raptors would tear you down if you were cocky enough to charge through them.

    I remember when HoT came out and I first saw pocket raptors (I only recently turned on the feature where enemy names are shown in red). I thought "what cute little guys" and the next second I was dead.

  • Hesione.9412Hesione.9412 Member ✭✭✭

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    @Ultramex.1506 said:
    People just need to get better, no! I'm not saying this as an elite, but someone who is willing to learn from past mistake to improve, dumbing everything down further won't encourage growth.
    Having trouble beating an enemy? See what you did wrong and learn the enemy attack pattern, for example: smokescale! Either block or double evade and when it use smoke just lure it out!
    Although i must say, enemies in HoT are easier with range than melee, except for that frog which has been nerfed

    There is a large segment of the populace (large, not majority..) that likes to be able to stand still in the game in the middle of areas with enemy creatures without dying while they [fill in blank with alt-tab, message friends, check map etc]

    People attach a large significant to dying in game. Because of course reasons.

    There are complaints about the aggro range in PoF maps....

    It truly seems as if people only want to auto attack and not worry about mechanics or focus.

    They just want to move on to the next area.

    PoF aggro range is a bit of pet peeve of mine. It's not at all about difficulty. It's that you can never get out of combat in PoF. There's always another stupid sand eel or forged sniper 2000 units away that for some reason decided it wants to come after you. I don't want things "easier", but I also don't want to be forced to fight 20 mobs due to chain aggro every time I stop to harvest a node!

    I mean I get it. But being an old school RPG player I am conditioned to go to a town or outpost if I want a break..

    Even as an old school RPG player, I never had a constant, continual string of fighting without even a small break. I'm not talking about sorting through the loot and such. Just one fight after another fight after another fight after another fight after..... Not in my RPG experience.

    You have been waylaid by enemies and must defend yourself...

    Agreed. Never getting out of combat: never being able to have your health pool regen, never getting rid of debuffs, and in PoF getting one movement debuff after another, always having multiple mobs on you, ... These are the reasons I loathe The Desolation. I hate it less now that I have mounts, but I still hate it. 1/10 would not access again if not for map completion and bounties.

  • Terek.8923Terek.8923 Member ✭✭
    edited September 10, 2020

    I soloed all of pof and hot.just gotta pick the right class as not all of thrm are up to the task. I main Reaper in pve so its all a real cakewalk i hadent been in downstate on my necro since HoT released till today actually. And it happened in drizzlewood coast as i didnt know what i was getting into as it was my first time on that map and the mobs are super tanky. But played the last few hours and once again its pretty cakewalk.
    I would say second place would be power renegade. It has tons of sustain as well

  • Astyrah.4015Astyrah.4015 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @kharmin.7683 said:
    The content shouldn't dictate the profession one needs to play. All professions should be able to manage through it, perhaps some easier than others. Yes, content can (and arguably should?) make a player change their build or concept of their character to have an easier time, but it shouldn't be merciful to one or two professions at the cost of the others.

    tbh i use builds meant for fractals and the only time i actually had to change a build in anywhere in PvE was when joining the Mad King Labyrinth Festival farm-trains to focus on mobility traits and doing less damage to allow everyone to get credit on kills/events

  • Hesione.9412Hesione.9412 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 10, 2020

    @kharmin.7683 said:
    The content shouldn't dictate the profession one needs to play. All professions should be able to manage through it, perhaps some easier than others. Yes, content can (and arguably should?) make a player change their build or concept of their character to have an easier time, but it shouldn't be merciful to one or two professions at the cost of the others.

    Edited to add: You're the post I quoted so that I could expand on your points.

    Especially when the entire PoF content has to be played on three different characters, in order to progress the banners achievement - which is locked behind selecting three different factions to support when in Ammoon. It is beyond silly to expect those three characters to be out of a list of only two viable options.

    Additionally, the story is a key point of difference for GW2. There is an expectation that players will play the story. Statements like "l2p" miss this point. The end-game content, which is specifically designed to be difficult, is raids (and fashion wars). The story should be easily achievable for casual players with any build/profession.

    Making the story difficult to finish means that a key selling point of the game is restricted to purchases who will "l2p". As well as raids, PvP and WvW cater to the higher end of players who have "l2p". When there is an order of magnitude difference in DPS between many casual players and the raiders, even having the story difficulty pitched at the mid-point between these two ends creates problems for most players. You don't alienate most of your players if you want to stay in business.

  • Cerioth.7062Cerioth.7062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @Cerioth.7062 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @Cerioth.7062 said:
    Honestly most of the issues described here would be fixed by introducing better core game tutorialization that forces you to learn your abilities and counter mobs.

    Perhaps, so, but I don't really like things that are 'forced'. /shrug

    Why even bother playing the game if you do not want to learn its mechanics? How is the game going to make you learn gameplay if you can indefinitely avoid it?

    Obviously it does not have to be a per character thing, can just be once per account thing that you can repeat as needed.

    If I were to struggle with content, then I would be forced to learn on my own. Having something in place that forces that on me when the game decides to is not something that I would prefer.

    Clearly this is not the case, because posts about "x content is too hard" keep popping up all over the place, instead of players actually learning what their mechanics do.

    Lack of proper tutorialization is also the reason why people struggle to get into raids.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Croc.1978 said:
    Yes, difficulty in HoT is fine as it is.

    That said, there's really nothing that prepares players for what awaits them in the green hell before they enter it. They probably intended Silverwastes to be that preparation, but it doesn't work. And nerfing Orr post-release was a mistake.

    I guess the best advise you could give new players now is:

    • play Orr
    • play Silverwastes (not RIBA) for a while
    • start PoF and get at least Raptor with canyon jump
    • enter Verdant Brink

    I think the best advice is toncomplete pof and play hot as a prequel.

  • Virtuality.8351Virtuality.8351 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 11, 2020

    @Hesione.9412 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:
    The content shouldn't dictate the profession one needs to play. All professions should be able to manage through it, perhaps some easier than others. Yes, content can (and arguably should?) make a player change their build or concept of their character to have an easier time, but it shouldn't be merciful to one or two professions at the cost of the others.

    Edited to add: You're the post I quoted so that I could expand on your points.

    Especially when the entire PoF content has to be played on three different characters, in order to progress the banners achievement - which is locked behind selecting three different factions to support when in Ammoon. It is beyond silly to expect those three characters to be out of a list of only two viable options.

    Additionally, the story is a key point of difference for GW2. There is an expectation that players will play the story. Statements like "l2p" miss this point. The end-game content, which is specifically designed to be difficult, is raids (and fashion wars). The story should be easily achievable for casual players with any build/profession.

    Making the story difficult to finish means that a key selling point of the game is restricted to purchases who will "l2p". As well as raids, PvP and WvW cater to the higher end of players who have "l2p". When there is an order of magnitude difference in DPS between many casual players and the raiders, even having the story difficulty pitched at the mid-point between these two ends creates problems for most players. You don't alienate most of your players if you want to stay in business.

    I agree more with kharmin here actually. As for stories, I believe they should be achievable by all professions (though not necessarily easily as they have always been), but certainly not with every build (as they arguably have been regarding the difficulty, or rather lack thereof).

    One of the core promise that GW2 has made and been successfully keeping since launch, is to allow players to modify their builds easily, so that players can switch between different tactics to deal with what they are facing. And now with the build templates, it is so easy for players to create new builds specifically for what they have problem to tackle down, and then switch back what they feel more like running, that I hardly see any reason for the developers to take into account all possible build combinations while designing story levels.

    In fact some story levels actually suffer from being too easy. For example, I remember, years ago ,when I decided to create new characters of professions that I have not yet tried out and complete the core stories with them leveled straight up to 80 with Tomes and in exotic gear. Oh boy, that was a hellish experience. The combat of the entire Orr arc was so easy, even for me as someone entirely new to the class, that it became tedious. The Eye and the Mouth were both trash, and the final fight against Zhaitan was a complete joke. Imagine that, while the story keeps telling you that this is the threat that may destroy all civilization in Tyria, the final battle just feels like the opposite of that. I mean, for goodness' sake, at least give us the difficulty equal to the fight against Balthazar.

    Though I gotta say that when it comes to dungeons, I agree with what you say. The dungeon stages was really not designed for players still leveling up, while they were meant to be played while the players are leveling up progressing through the story. Though understandable, it was still a shame that the developers decided to completely avoid touching it anymore due to technical reasons. The difficulty of the dungeon stages really should have scaled with the member of the party with highest level instead of requiring players to max out at 80 and acquire proper gear first.

  • @kharmin.7683 said:
    The content shouldn't dictate the profession one needs to play. All professions should be able to manage through it, perhaps some easier than others. Yes, content can (and arguably should?) make a player change their build or concept of their character to have an easier time, but it shouldn't be merciful to one or two professions at the cost of the others.

    It isn't. That's just one player's opinion and it isn't accurate. See videos from guys like Lord Hizen (or myself!) who design builds for open world boss solos on a variety of classes. There is no class in this game that isn't capable of going solo against far more than what the story and general open world expansion play require! Even those with a reputation for being "squishy" can do it. It's all about designing a build that works and learning how to play it (although some classes you can just skip that learning part because it's just that easy - see cmirage with staff!).

  • Einlanzer.1627Einlanzer.1627 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 11, 2020

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    @Ultramex.1506 said:
    People just need to get better, no! I'm not saying this as an elite, but someone who is willing to learn from past mistake to improve, dumbing everything down further won't encourage growth.
    Having trouble beating an enemy? See what you did wrong and learn the enemy attack pattern, for example: smokescale! Either block or double evade and when it use smoke just lure it out!
    Although i must say, enemies in HoT are easier with range than melee, except for that frog which has been nerfed

    There is a large segment of the populace (large, not majority..) that likes to be able to stand still in the game in the middle of areas with enemy creatures without dying while they [fill in blank with alt-tab, message friends, check map etc]

    People attach a large significant to dying in game. Because of course reasons.

    There are complaints about the aggro range in PoF maps....

    It truly seems as if people only want to auto attack and not worry about mechanics or focus.

    They just want to move on to the next area.

    PoF aggro range is a bit of pet peeve of mine. It's not at all about difficulty. It's that you can never get out of combat in PoF. There's always another stupid sand eel or forged sniper 2000 units away that for some reason decided it wants to come after you. I don't want things "easier", but I also don't want to be forced to fight 20 mobs due to chain aggro every time I stop to harvest a node!

    Correct. This is why those zones are largely abandoned and why PoF needs attention much more than HoT does. HoT is perfectly fine IMO - it operates as a proper set of challenging end game zones with tons of meta activity. PoF does not. It's just a bunch of beautiful but fundamentally casual exploration zones all but ruined by excessive aggro and nonstop tedious combat.

    I don't think it's either realistic or desirable to try to make them more like HoT zones. I think they should be more like core zones, which mostly just means reducing aggro range and maybe mob density in some areas.

  • As much as I initially didn't like HoT, I've come to like the map and it's complexity.

    I can't find everything I want to and have a difficult managing the terrain on some of the maps. There are plenty of people who enjoy the taking a train around to show people where to find stuff. That's what makes the game fun, others helping you and in turn you payback later by joining a pug or helping with a Champion boss to gain an achievement.

    Now that we can use Desert Mastery to complete Legendary weapons it opens up another option. I hope the new expansion also allows for Legendary completion, more options are better.

    Ask a child a question and you'll get a childish answer.

  • HoT was just perfect when it came out. As OP mentions it required teamwork. Unfortunately, there's a rather deep anti-social vibe permiating the gaming community now - possibly an artifact of the preferences of younger players to avoid social contact, who shun teamwork in anything but the most basic sense. Thus, the rise of the "Massively Single Player RPG" evidenced with for example, Warcraft's various iterations on player Strongholds and LFG queues. The onus in modern MMOs is a little less on discovery and co-operation, and more on spoon feeding, hand holding and constant back patting. Un-nerf the difficulty I say, force players in HoT zones to actually partake in the "massively multiplayer" part of the genre, and ignore the cries of those who cannot go half an hour without the game giving them something for the simple act of existing.

  • They made GW2 so game is equally difficult either solo or in party.
    Small party vs large party game adjusts.

    But Todays GW2.
    HoT, doing some content like the map with Mordemoth. LARGE PARTY LARGE PARTY LARGE PARTY, only 1 version.
    Thats not how GW2 was designed originally.

    So yes I agree with HoT not being nerfed... But it needs an easier version if less people are doing it.
    Can't expect people to do 60 person content anymore if only 20 people doing it. And it only has 60 person version, no max players version, no 20 player version, only one version.

    Just like World bosses, if 20 people show up and want to do a world boss, have a 20 person version (i wouldn't go any lower).
    All you do is adjust the health anyways. If max players show up all you do is raise the health it has. Whats wrong with lowering it for less people?

  • @Einlanzer.1627 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    @Ultramex.1506 said:
    People just need to get better, no! I'm not saying this as an elite, but someone who is willing to learn from past mistake to improve, dumbing everything down further won't encourage growth.
    Having trouble beating an enemy? See what you did wrong and learn the enemy attack pattern, for example: smokescale! Either block or double evade and when it use smoke just lure it out!
    Although i must say, enemies in HoT are easier with range than melee, except for that frog which has been nerfed

    There is a large segment of the populace (large, not majority..) that likes to be able to stand still in the game in the middle of areas with enemy creatures without dying while they [fill in blank with alt-tab, message friends, check map etc]

    People attach a large significant to dying in game. Because of course reasons.

    There are complaints about the aggro range in PoF maps....

    It truly seems as if people only want to auto attack and not worry about mechanics or focus.

    They just want to move on to the next area.

    PoF aggro range is a bit of pet peeve of mine. It's not at all about difficulty. It's that you can never get out of combat in PoF. There's always another stupid sand eel or forged sniper 2000 units away that for some reason decided it wants to come after you. I don't want things "easier", but I also don't want to be forced to fight 20 mobs due to chain aggro every time I stop to harvest a node!

    Correct. This is why those zones are largely abandoned and why PoF needs attention much more than HoT does. HoT is perfectly fine IMO - it operates as a proper set of challenging end game zones with tons of meta activity. PoF does not. It's just a bunch of beautiful but fundamentally casual exploration zones all but ruined by excessive aggro and nonstop tedious combat.

    I don't think it's either realistic or desirable to try to make them more like HoT zones. I think they should be more like core zones, which mostly just means reducing aggro range and maybe mob density in some areas.

    I'm not sure I agree that the only issue with PoF is the aggro range. Take that away and change nothing else and you'll still have huge, empty maps with not much going on. Apparently, that's what some players enjoy, but I think the persistent activity of the HoT maps is evidence that players enjoy that sort of group activity.

  • Einlanzer.1627Einlanzer.1627 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 11, 2020

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @Einlanzer.1627 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    @Ultramex.1506 said:
    People just need to get better, no! I'm not saying this as an elite, but someone who is willing to learn from past mistake to improve, dumbing everything down further won't encourage growth.
    Having trouble beating an enemy? See what you did wrong and learn the enemy attack pattern, for example: smokescale! Either block or double evade and when it use smoke just lure it out!
    Although i must say, enemies in HoT are easier with range than melee, except for that frog which has been nerfed

    There is a large segment of the populace (large, not majority..) that likes to be able to stand still in the game in the middle of areas with enemy creatures without dying while they [fill in blank with alt-tab, message friends, check map etc]

    People attach a large significant to dying in game. Because of course reasons.

    There are complaints about the aggro range in PoF maps....

    It truly seems as if people only want to auto attack and not worry about mechanics or focus.

    They just want to move on to the next area.

    PoF aggro range is a bit of pet peeve of mine. It's not at all about difficulty. It's that you can never get out of combat in PoF. There's always another stupid sand eel or forged sniper 2000 units away that for some reason decided it wants to come after you. I don't want things "easier", but I also don't want to be forced to fight 20 mobs due to chain aggro every time I stop to harvest a node!

    Correct. This is why those zones are largely abandoned and why PoF needs attention much more than HoT does. HoT is perfectly fine IMO - it operates as a proper set of challenging end game zones with tons of meta activity. PoF does not. It's just a bunch of beautiful but fundamentally casual exploration zones all but ruined by excessive aggro and nonstop tedious combat.

    I don't think it's either realistic or desirable to try to make them more like HoT zones. I think they should be more like core zones, which mostly just means reducing aggro range and maybe mob density in some areas.

    I'm not sure I agree that the only issue with PoF is the aggro range. Take that away and change nothing else and you'll still have huge, empty maps with not much going on. Apparently, that's what some players enjoy, but I think the persistent activity of the HoT maps is evidence that players enjoy that sort of group activity.

    Yeah, but the issue is there's only so much of that the game can handle. There's a strong argument to be made that the population is already spread too thin with the large number of maps containing significant meta activity with strong rewards. Personally I feel they've overemphasized that with the LW when they should have been balancing it with a combination of dungeons/raids/small group content and more casual solo-oriented zones.

    And instead of HoT having nothing but that and PoF having none of it, both expansions should have had a mix of both. But it's too late for that now, so I say keep HoT how it is and pare back PoF a little bit and let it be a bit of a slow/casual region. Hopefully Cantha will be a little more mixed.

  • castlemanic.3198castlemanic.3198 Member ✭✭✭✭

    A lot of you 'git gud' people need to chill and stop with the hyperbole of what casual players want. No we don't want faceroll content, no we don't want participation rewards for just having characters on the same server as a meta event. Nerfing HoT initially WAS the right move for the game, and it seems like the devs have learned from that mistake. PoF was better balanced for the general player base and I hope they continue with that trend for EoD. Leave hard content for raids, strike missions, challenge mode fractals etc.

    Whataboutism is disingenuous at best. If you join a debate and provide little to no proof when the other side provides lots of evidence, you can't then declare yourself the winner of that debate. I won't engage with bad faith arguments.

  • Hesione.9412Hesione.9412 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 11, 2020

    @Virtuality.8351 said:

    @Hesione.9412 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:
    The content shouldn't dictate the profession one needs to play. All professions should be able to manage through it, perhaps some easier than others. Yes, content can (and arguably should?) make a player change their build or concept of their character to have an easier time, but it shouldn't be merciful to one or two professions at the cost of the others.

    Edited to add: You're the post I quoted so that I could expand on your points.

    Especially when the entire PoF content has to be played on three different characters, in order to progress the banners achievement - which is locked behind selecting three different factions to support when in Ammoon. It is beyond silly to expect those three characters to be out of a list of only two viable options.

    Additionally, the story is a key point of difference for GW2. There is an expectation that players will play the story. Statements like "l2p" miss this point. The end-game content, which is specifically designed to be difficult, is raids (and fashion wars). The story should be easily achievable for casual players with any build/profession.

    Making the story difficult to finish means that a key selling point of the game is restricted to purchases who will "l2p". As well as raids, PvP and WvW cater to the higher end of players who have "l2p". When there is an order of magnitude difference in DPS between many casual players and the raiders, even having the story difficulty pitched at the mid-point between these two ends creates problems for most players. You don't alienate most of your players if you want to stay in business.

    I agree more with kharmin here actually. As for stories, I believe they should be achievable by all professions (though not necessarily easily as they have always been), but certainly not with every build (as they arguably have been regarding the difficulty, or rather lack thereof).

    One of the core promise that GW2 has made and been successfully keeping since launch, is to allow players to modify their builds easily, so that players can switch between different tactics to deal with what they are facing. And now with the build templates, it is so easy for players to create new builds specifically for what they have problem to tackle down, and then switch back what they feel more like running, that I hardly see any reason for the developers to take into account all possible build combinations while designing story levels.

    In fact some story levels actually suffer from being too easy. For example, I remember, years ago ,when I decided to create new characters of professions that I have not yet tried out and complete the core stories with them leveled straight up to 80 with Tomes and in exotic gear. Oh boy, that was a hellish experience. The combat of the entire Orr arc was so easy, even for me as someone entirely new to the class, that it became tedious. The Eye and the Mouth were both trash, and the final fight against Zhaitan was a complete joke. Imagine that, while the story keeps telling you that this is the threat that may destroy all civilization in Tyria, the final battle just feels like the opposite of that. I mean, for goodness' sake, at least give us the difficulty equal to the fight against Balthazar.

    Though I gotta say that when it comes to dungeons, I agree with what you say. The dungeon stages was really not designed for players still leveling up, while they were meant to be played while the players are leveling up progressing through the story. Though understandable, it was still a shame that the developers decided to completely avoid touching it anymore due to technical reasons. The difficulty of the dungeon stages really should have scaled with the member of the party with highest level instead of requiring players to max out at 80 and acquire proper gear first.

    Did you read the bit where I said, When there is an order of magnitude difference in DPS between many casual players and the raiders, even having the story difficulty pitched at the mid-point between these two ends creates problems for most players?

    People on this thread, handwaving away that people need to "git gud" or need to "l2p", are missing the point.

    These players are still an order of magnitude lower in DPS in open world as well.

    Having the open world and the story instances too hard, for many players, doesn't make logical sense, at least for keeping a player base. And I say many because the distribution for DPS is not normal, in a statistical sense. While the arithmetic mid-point between the bottom and top DPS (inside level 80 areas) I estimate to be somewhere in the range 15-18K, there are many many more players under than mid-point than there are above it. The distribution is heavily right-skewed. Looking at open-world content where I have been in a squad and running ArcDPS, almost daily for over a year, the median DPS was around 10K, and that was with people stacking.

    So if open-world and personal story content is aimed at even the 15K DPS player, it's going to be too difficult/disheartening for many players.

    And that's the problem.

    Back to builds. I continue to ::headdesk:: at games that implement a system where people can select any one of a number of builds, when only a couple are viable. I'm not talking about simply adding or removing more breakbar skills, I'm talking about wholesale build changes where a limited number/combination of profession specialisations and traits are basically the ones that are viable. So everyone is pushed to using the same small set of cookie-cutter builds, where a number of specialisation combinations and trait combinations are never used in viable builds. For efficiency, the game could simply include pre-built builds that have been assessed as "best in class" (or, at minimum, not be kitten builds) for the current game build and let people simply select the one they want.

  • castlemanic.3198castlemanic.3198 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Hesione.9412 said:
    Back to builds. I continue to ::headdesk:: at games that implement a system where people can select any one of a number of builds, when only a couple are viable. I'm not talking about simply adding or removing more breakbar skills, I'm talking about wholesale build changes where a limited number/combination of profession specialisations and traits are basically the ones that are viable. So everyone is pushed to using the same small set of cookie-cutter builds, where a number of specialisation combinations and trait combinations are never used in viable builds. For efficiency, the game could simply include pre-built builds that have been assessed as "best in class" (or, at minimum, not be kitten builds) for the current game build and let people simply select the one they want.

    they should also really consider removing stat combinations that are subpar for general use, less variety in stat types means less variance in damage numbers, sacrifice freedom to guarantee effectiveness.

    Whataboutism is disingenuous at best. If you join a debate and provide little to no proof when the other side provides lots of evidence, you can't then declare yourself the winner of that debate. I won't engage with bad faith arguments.

  • @Dante.1508 said:
    Hot is not "easy to solo" gliders and mounts help a lot.. try soloing without them.. New customers have to.. Classes are so unbalanced a Engi, Necro and a Guardian can storm through the maps while Warrior, Ele and Mesmer get killed every second.. Even Rangers and Revenants have some issues..

    No you aren't right op.. sorry but you are very wrong.. you are a niche in this game.

    @Cerioth.7062 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @Cerioth.7062 said:
    Honestly most of the issues described here would be fixed by introducing better core game tutorialization that forces you to learn your abilities and counter mobs.

    Perhaps, so, but I don't really like things that are 'forced'. /shrug

    Why even bother playing the game if you do not want to learn its mechanics? How is the game going to make you learn gameplay if you can indefinitely avoid it?

    Obviously it does not have to be a per character thing, can just be once per account thing that you can repeat as needed.

    Its not the mechanics to learn i'm on 250ping as an Aussie and hot is inundated with cheap shot mechanics designed to bully customers to death.. not fun in the slightest to play.. Even as an 8 year vet i try to avoid Hot and i've only ever completed pof once.. its just not a fun aspect to deal with daily..

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Croc.1978 said:
    Yes, difficulty in HoT is fine as it is.

    That said, there's really nothing that prepares players for what awaits them in the green hell before they enter it. They probably intended Silverwastes to be that preparation, but it doesn't work. And nerfing Orr post-release was a mistake.

    I guess the best advise you could give new players now is:

    • play Orr
    • play Silverwastes (not RIBA) for a while
    • start PoF and get at least Raptor with canyon jump
    • enter Verdant Brink

    I think the best advice is toncomplete pof and play hot as a prequel.

    That wont help you need minimum Glider, Bunny and a Flying mount to avoid a good chunk of deaths..

    In case anyone was actually planning to listen to this guy, let me just save you the trouble with this video of an HoT champion solo that anyone (even Dante here!) can do. As a bonus, I'm wearing green gear that costs about 2s per piece so anyone can afford it. I've also slotted all signets for utilities and no weapon swap to avoid any complications. You can literally just push buttons at random with this build and win. The only thing that matters is pushing dodge and auto attack over and over.

    Seriously, Dante, do yourself a favor and try this. You might begin to realize what people are trying to tell you and what you never could have learned playing through content once and then complaining about it endlessly for years. Find a build that works. This one happens to work even if you don't want to!

  • Virtuality.8351Virtuality.8351 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 12, 2020

    @Hesione.9412 said:

    @Virtuality.8351 said:

    @Hesione.9412 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:
    The content shouldn't dictate the profession one needs to play. All professions should be able to manage through it, perhaps some easier than others. Yes, content can (and arguably should?) make a player change their build or concept of their character to have an easier time, but it shouldn't be merciful to one or two professions at the cost of the others.

    Edited to add: You're the post I quoted so that I could expand on your points.

    Especially when the entire PoF content has to be played on three different characters, in order to progress the banners achievement - which is locked behind selecting three different factions to support when in Ammoon. It is beyond silly to expect those three characters to be out of a list of only two viable options.

    Additionally, the story is a key point of difference for GW2. There is an expectation that players will play the story. Statements like "l2p" miss this point. The end-game content, which is specifically designed to be difficult, is raids (and fashion wars). The story should be easily achievable for casual players with any build/profession.

    Making the story difficult to finish means that a key selling point of the game is restricted to purchases who will "l2p". As well as raids, PvP and WvW cater to the higher end of players who have "l2p". When there is an order of magnitude difference in DPS between many casual players and the raiders, even having the story difficulty pitched at the mid-point between these two ends creates problems for most players. You don't alienate most of your players if you want to stay in business.

    I agree more with kharmin here actually. As for stories, I believe they should be achievable by all professions (though not necessarily easily as they have always been), but certainly not with every build (as they arguably have been regarding the difficulty, or rather lack thereof).

    One of the core promise that GW2 has made and been successfully keeping since launch, is to allow players to modify their builds easily, so that players can switch between different tactics to deal with what they are facing. And now with the build templates, it is so easy for players to create new builds specifically for what they have problem to tackle down, and then switch back what they feel more like running, that I hardly see any reason for the developers to take into account all possible build combinations while designing story levels.

    In fact some story levels actually suffer from being too easy. For example, I remember, years ago ,when I decided to create new characters of professions that I have not yet tried out and complete the core stories with them leveled straight up to 80 with Tomes and in exotic gear. Oh boy, that was a hellish experience. The combat of the entire Orr arc was so easy, even for me as someone entirely new to the class, that it became tedious. The Eye and the Mouth were both trash, and the final fight against Zhaitan was a complete joke. Imagine that, while the story keeps telling you that this is the threat that may destroy all civilization in Tyria, the final battle just feels like the opposite of that. I mean, for goodness' sake, at least give us the difficulty equal to the fight against Balthazar.

    Though I gotta say that when it comes to dungeons, I agree with what you say. The dungeon stages was really not designed for players still leveling up, while they were meant to be played while the players are leveling up progressing through the story. Though understandable, it was still a shame that the developers decided to completely avoid touching it anymore due to technical reasons. The difficulty of the dungeon stages really should have scaled with the member of the party with highest level instead of requiring players to max out at 80 and acquire proper gear first.

    Did you read the bit where I said, When there is an order of magnitude difference in DPS between many casual players and the raiders, even having the story difficulty pitched at the mid-point between these two ends creates problems for most players?

    People on this thread, handwaving away that people need to "git gud" or need to "l2p", are missing the point.

    These players are still an order of magnitude lower in DPS in open world as well.

    Having the open world and the story instances too hard, for many players, doesn't make logical sense, at least for keeping a player base. And I say many because the distribution for DPS is not normal, in a statistical sense. While the arithmetic mid-point between the bottom and top DPS (inside level 80 areas) I estimate to be somewhere in the range 15-18K, there are many many more players under than mid-point than there are above it. The distribution is heavily right-skewed. Looking at open-world content where I have been in a squad and running ArcDPS, almost daily for over a year, the median DPS was around 10K, and that was with people stacking.

    So if open-world and personal story content is aimed at even the 15K DPS player, it's going to be too difficult/disheartening for many players.

    And that's the problem.

    Back to builds. I continue to ::headdesk:: at games that implement a system where people can select any one of a number of builds, when only a couple are viable. I'm not talking about simply adding or removing more breakbar skills, I'm talking about wholesale build changes where a limited number/combination of profession specialisations and traits are basically the ones that are viable. So everyone is pushed to using the same small set of cookie-cutter builds, where a number of specialisation combinations and trait combinations are never used in viable builds. For efficiency, the game could simply include pre-built builds that have been assessed as "best in class" (or, at minimum, not be kitten builds) for the current game build and let people simply select the one they want.

    First of all, for the record, I am by no means an elitist player. Out of all my 10 characters, only one runs the so-regarded meta build for Fractals. All the rest of them run sub-optimal builds in terms of DPS. And I do not even do Raids.

    Now, I agree with your observation on the distribution of player performance, but the way you put it in your argument is the part that I do not understand. Correct me if I misunderstand you, but It seems to me that, in your mind, DPS is the one and only viable mean for players to tackle down a problem presented to them, which I'd argue that in reality is entirely not the case for the majority of non-Fractals/Raid contents. Simply refer to the video posted by AliamRationem above.

    Or to put it in other words, it seems to me that for you the only means to increase content difficulty is (or, as you might rather say, has been) to raise the DPS check for players even further, which is not the case either. Content difficulty can certainly be raised via mechanics and other means instead of simply the blend DPS check.

    And in case you missed it, people primarily complain how the jungle is so difficult to survive instead of how they feel inadequate with insufficient DPS.

    As for builds, though I am of course limited to my own experience, I have yet to learn any build completely not viable for any content. Even for Fractals and Dungeons if you can find a group of people who are willing to run with you in non-meta low DPS builds, chances are that you will eventually grind the boss down as long as you can survive it. The reason meta builds are as such in PvE is more often that they are more "efficient" in terms of the time needed to complete a certain content, so that less time is wasted on the grind, than that they are the only few tactics that actually work.

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:
    I agree with the basics of what the OP posted.

    I still struggle to understand why people invest in a MMO then complain about difficulty when they can’t solo all of it.

    I mean, I have no problem with anyone running things solo. That’s your choice.

    But because you [insert personal reason here] there is an expectation that the content be made easier to allow it to be solo’d.

    mmos arent about playing TOGETHER, but IN THE SAME WORLD, mmos have been single player games pretty much since wow
    and since most of core was exactly that, it is mindnumbingly stupid to change direction so late in the game.
    the only thing they gain is a divided playerbase with ½ of a good game each. you cant build much on that experience...

  • Tulki.1458Tulki.1458 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 12, 2020

    I think people should bear in mind that at no point does the game force you to run glass cannon gear in HoT. If you switch from berserker gear to marauder, for instance, you lose only ~10% dps but end up with higher crit chance for more procs and 6k more health which can easily mean the difference between life and death.

    If anything, the later zones of the 1-80 leveling experience should be made more difficult to bridge the gap (as others have said already, nerfing Orr was a mistake). Making things easier only means that players can afford to engage even less with the combat systems. And when the playerbase engages less with the combat systems, it leads ArenaNet to develop content that is less interesting. The gradual regression of game difficulty through season 3, PoF, and season 4 are what led us to extremely simplified strikes, a massive drought for fractals, and (borderline) cancelled raids as a game mode.

    Surviving in Heart of Thorns is not unsurmountable, even with middling gear. Think about your profession, think about stamina and stamina recovery, think about blocks and dodges. The entire Heart of Maguuma region is meant to teach you that standing still will get you killed. Pay attention. If you're dying, swap in a defensive skill.

  • LoL, I soloed all. I mean, it was hard as hell but... Wasn't impossible. And believe, if I can solo something, anyone can. I mean, I'm the original noob. The one throwing a grenade to himself.

  • Hesione.9412Hesione.9412 Member ✭✭✭

    @Virtuality.8351 said:

    @Hesione.9412 said:

    @Virtuality.8351 said:

    @Hesione.9412 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:
    The content shouldn't dictate the profession one needs to play. All professions should be able to manage through it, perhaps some easier than others. Yes, content can (and arguably should?) make a player change their build or concept of their character to have an easier time, but it shouldn't be merciful to one or two professions at the cost of the others.

    Edited to add: You're the post I quoted so that I could expand on your points.

    Especially when the entire PoF content has to be played on three different characters, in order to progress the banners achievement - which is locked behind selecting three different factions to support when in Ammoon. It is beyond silly to expect those three characters to be out of a list of only two viable options.

    Additionally, the story is a key point of difference for GW2. There is an expectation that players will play the story. Statements like "l2p" miss this point. The end-game content, which is specifically designed to be difficult, is raids (and fashion wars). The story should be easily achievable for casual players with any build/profession.

    Making the story difficult to finish means that a key selling point of the game is restricted to purchases who will "l2p". As well as raids, PvP and WvW cater to the higher end of players who have "l2p". When there is an order of magnitude difference in DPS between many casual players and the raiders, even having the story difficulty pitched at the mid-point between these two ends creates problems for most players. You don't alienate most of your players if you want to stay in business.

    I agree more with kharmin here actually. As for stories, I believe they should be achievable by all professions (though not necessarily easily as they have always been), but certainly not with every build (as they arguably have been regarding the difficulty, or rather lack thereof).

    One of the core promise that GW2 has made and been successfully keeping since launch, is to allow players to modify their builds easily, so that players can switch between different tactics to deal with what they are facing. And now with the build templates, it is so easy for players to create new builds specifically for what they have problem to tackle down, and then switch back what they feel more like running, that I hardly see any reason for the developers to take into account all possible build combinations while designing story levels.

    In fact some story levels actually suffer from being too easy. For example, I remember, years ago ,when I decided to create new characters of professions that I have not yet tried out and complete the core stories with them leveled straight up to 80 with Tomes and in exotic gear. Oh boy, that was a hellish experience. The combat of the entire Orr arc was so easy, even for me as someone entirely new to the class, that it became tedious. The Eye and the Mouth were both trash, and the final fight against Zhaitan was a complete joke. Imagine that, while the story keeps telling you that this is the threat that may destroy all civilization in Tyria, the final battle just feels like the opposite of that. I mean, for goodness' sake, at least give us the difficulty equal to the fight against Balthazar.

    Though I gotta say that when it comes to dungeons, I agree with what you say. The dungeon stages was really not designed for players still leveling up, while they were meant to be played while the players are leveling up progressing through the story. Though understandable, it was still a shame that the developers decided to completely avoid touching it anymore due to technical reasons. The difficulty of the dungeon stages really should have scaled with the member of the party with highest level instead of requiring players to max out at 80 and acquire proper gear first.

    Did you read the bit where I said, When there is an order of magnitude difference in DPS between many casual players and the raiders, even having the story difficulty pitched at the mid-point between these two ends creates problems for most players?

    People on this thread, handwaving away that people need to "git gud" or need to "l2p", are missing the point.

    These players are still an order of magnitude lower in DPS in open world as well.

    Having the open world and the story instances too hard, for many players, doesn't make logical sense, at least for keeping a player base. And I say many because the distribution for DPS is not normal, in a statistical sense. While the arithmetic mid-point between the bottom and top DPS (inside level 80 areas) I estimate to be somewhere in the range 15-18K, there are many many more players under than mid-point than there are above it. The distribution is heavily right-skewed. Looking at open-world content where I have been in a squad and running ArcDPS, almost daily for over a year, the median DPS was around 10K, and that was with people stacking.

    So if open-world and personal story content is aimed at even the 15K DPS player, it's going to be too difficult/disheartening for many players.

    And that's the problem.

    Back to builds. I continue to ::headdesk:: at games that implement a system where people can select any one of a number of builds, when only a couple are viable. I'm not talking about simply adding or removing more breakbar skills, I'm talking about wholesale build changes where a limited number/combination of profession specialisations and traits are basically the ones that are viable. So everyone is pushed to using the same small set of cookie-cutter builds, where a number of specialisation combinations and trait combinations are never used in viable builds. For efficiency, the game could simply include pre-built builds that have been assessed as "best in class" (or, at minimum, not be kitten builds) for the current game build and let people simply select the one they want.

    First of all, for the record, I am by no means an elitist player. Out of all my 10 characters, only one runs the so-regarded meta build for Fractals. All the rest of them run sub-optimal builds in terms of DPS. And I do not even do Raids.

    Now, I agree with your observation on the distribution of player performance, but the way you put it in your argument is the part that I do not understand. Correct me if I misunderstand you, but It seems to me that, in your mind, DPS is the one and only viable mean for players to tackle down a problem presented to them, which I'd argue that in reality is entirely not the case for the majority of non-Fractals/Raid contents. Simply refer to the video posted by AliamRationem above.

    Or to put it in other words, it seems to me that for you the only means to increase content difficulty is (or, as you might rather say, has been) to raise the DPS check for players even further, which is not the case either. Content difficulty can certainly be raised via mechanics and other means instead of simply the blend DPS check.

    And in case you missed it, people primarily complain how the jungle is so difficult to survive instead of how they feel inadequate with insufficient DPS.

    As for builds, though I am of course limited to my own experience, I have yet to learn any build completely not viable for any content. Even for Fractals and Dungeons if you can find a group of people who are willing to run with you in non-meta low DPS builds, chances are that you will eventually grind the boss down as long as you can survive it. The reason meta builds are as such in PvE is more often that they are more "efficient" in terms of the time needed to complete a certain content, so that less time is wasted on the grind, than that they are the only few tactics that actually work.

    DPS is an important metric for HoT and PoF. For players doing <10K with berserker gear, they are going to be doing so much less if they use alternative gear (e.g. soldiers) and add in more defensive traits). I have seen many players doing between 2K and 6K, including those with HoT and PoF elites.

    DPS is important. One thing that decreases your DPS is being downed. Another thing that decreases your DPS is being dead, and having to be revived or to WP. Blinds, etc, also reduce DPS. So I am using DPS in a possibly more generic way than others do. Why is the jungle so hard to survive? One either kills things, or moves past them.

    A problem with increasing the mechanics is that people like me, with higher ping, have to predict what is going to happen ahead of time because I often have to counter something before I see it on my screen. This occurs on even relatively basic open-world content, like trying to jump over Tequatl's waves. With _fluctuating _ OCX ping, it's a bit hit-and-miss for me. In more advanced content, I get hit with things I don't even see coming. Predictive dodging is a "thing". And if people are having problems with current content, I'm not sure that increasing the difficulty level of mechanics is a good alternative.

    W.r.t. the video posted earlier, to which you refer and which was posted after my comment, that is ONE profession using ONE build, which has a particularly large number of counters/damage. It cannot be extrapolated to other professions. Which then comes back to my point that certain professions/builds just have more viability than others. This then shifts the problem somewhat onto build rather than player skill. And yes, off-meta builds are viable, but only when played by people who know what they are doing. Meta-builds are meta-builds for a reason. And the players who are having problems with content are unlikely to be in that category. And then we return to the implicit point that people need to "git gud" or "l2p". We know that certain builds require more skill level to play well, e.g. weaver, which again illustrates the fact that the ease of playing content depends on the profession and build.

    And while a number of you here are arguing "look, everyone can do it if they try", that's assuming that other people aren't trying. I don't know the content that is presenting the most difficulty. I have assumed it is problems with being attacked by multiple mobs, and that the people don't have gliding and/or mounts. Maybe they're having problems being caught up with a returning mob train that another player created. We don't know what skills they have or haven't unlocked. Gliding and mounts make bypassing mobs trivial in HoT. But not all players have those. However, I am simply guessing here, along with everyone else.

  • @Blude.6812 said:
    Ah, sorry you are not getting the content that YOU want. If just fine for what I would consider most players. I am sure that there are many ways you can make content harder for yourself without negatively impacting others. I also wonder what insight into the devs mind you have to proclaim what hot is 'supposed' to be. Drizzlewood might be more to your liking, (not mine btw).

    Why not just do things that make the content easier for yourself instead of requesting everyone else to make the content harder for themselves?

  • Virtuality.8351Virtuality.8351 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 13, 2020

    @Hesione.9412 said:

    @Virtuality.8351 said:

    @Hesione.9412 said:

    @Virtuality.8351 said:

    @Hesione.9412 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:
    The content shouldn't dictate the profession one needs to play. All professions should be able to manage through it, perhaps some easier than others. Yes, content can (and arguably should?) make a player change their build or concept of their character to have an easier time, but it shouldn't be merciful to one or two professions at the cost of the others.

    Edited to add: You're the post I quoted so that I could expand on your points.

    Especially when the entire PoF content has to be played on three different characters, in order to progress the banners achievement - which is locked behind selecting three different factions to support when in Ammoon. It is beyond silly to expect those three characters to be out of a list of only two viable options.

    Additionally, the story is a key point of difference for GW2. There is an expectation that players will play the story. Statements like "l2p" miss this point. The end-game content, which is specifically designed to be difficult, is raids (and fashion wars). The story should be easily achievable for casual players with any build/profession.

    Making the story difficult to finish means that a key selling point of the game is restricted to purchases who will "l2p". As well as raids, PvP and WvW cater to the higher end of players who have "l2p". When there is an order of magnitude difference in DPS between many casual players and the raiders, even having the story difficulty pitched at the mid-point between these two ends creates problems for most players. You don't alienate most of your players if you want to stay in business.

    I agree more with kharmin here actually. As for stories, I believe they should be achievable by all professions (though not necessarily easily as they have always been), but certainly not with every build (as they arguably have been regarding the difficulty, or rather lack thereof).

    One of the core promise that GW2 has made and been successfully keeping since launch, is to allow players to modify their builds easily, so that players can switch between different tactics to deal with what they are facing. And now with the build templates, it is so easy for players to create new builds specifically for what they have problem to tackle down, and then switch back what they feel more like running, that I hardly see any reason for the developers to take into account all possible build combinations while designing story levels.

    In fact some story levels actually suffer from being too easy. For example, I remember, years ago ,when I decided to create new characters of professions that I have not yet tried out and complete the core stories with them leveled straight up to 80 with Tomes and in exotic gear. Oh boy, that was a hellish experience. The combat of the entire Orr arc was so easy, even for me as someone entirely new to the class, that it became tedious. The Eye and the Mouth were both trash, and the final fight against Zhaitan was a complete joke. Imagine that, while the story keeps telling you that this is the threat that may destroy all civilization in Tyria, the final battle just feels like the opposite of that. I mean, for goodness' sake, at least give us the difficulty equal to the fight against Balthazar.

    Though I gotta say that when it comes to dungeons, I agree with what you say. The dungeon stages was really not designed for players still leveling up, while they were meant to be played while the players are leveling up progressing through the story. Though understandable, it was still a shame that the developers decided to completely avoid touching it anymore due to technical reasons. The difficulty of the dungeon stages really should have scaled with the member of the party with highest level instead of requiring players to max out at 80 and acquire proper gear first.

    Did you read the bit where I said, When there is an order of magnitude difference in DPS between many casual players and the raiders, even having the story difficulty pitched at the mid-point between these two ends creates problems for most players?

    People on this thread, handwaving away that people need to "git gud" or need to "l2p", are missing the point.

    These players are still an order of magnitude lower in DPS in open world as well.

    Having the open world and the story instances too hard, for many players, doesn't make logical sense, at least for keeping a player base. And I say many because the distribution for DPS is not normal, in a statistical sense. While the arithmetic mid-point between the bottom and top DPS (inside level 80 areas) I estimate to be somewhere in the range 15-18K, there are many many more players under than mid-point than there are above it. The distribution is heavily right-skewed. Looking at open-world content where I have been in a squad and running ArcDPS, almost daily for over a year, the median DPS was around 10K, and that was with people stacking.

    So if open-world and personal story content is aimed at even the 15K DPS player, it's going to be too difficult/disheartening for many players.

    And that's the problem.

    Back to builds. I continue to ::headdesk:: at games that implement a system where people can select any one of a number of builds, when only a couple are viable. I'm not talking about simply adding or removing more breakbar skills, I'm talking about wholesale build changes where a limited number/combination of profession specialisations and traits are basically the ones that are viable. So everyone is pushed to using the same small set of cookie-cutter builds, where a number of specialisation combinations and trait combinations are never used in viable builds. For efficiency, the game could simply include pre-built builds that have been assessed as "best in class" (or, at minimum, not be kitten builds) for the current game build and let people simply select the one they want.

    First of all, for the record, I am by no means an elitist player. Out of all my 10 characters, only one runs the so-regarded meta build for Fractals. All the rest of them run sub-optimal builds in terms of DPS. And I do not even do Raids.

    Now, I agree with your observation on the distribution of player performance, but the way you put it in your argument is the part that I do not understand. Correct me if I misunderstand you, but It seems to me that, in your mind, DPS is the one and only viable mean for players to tackle down a problem presented to them, which I'd argue that in reality is entirely not the case for the majority of non-Fractals/Raid contents. Simply refer to the video posted by AliamRationem above.

    Or to put it in other words, it seems to me that for you the only means to increase content difficulty is (or, as you might rather say, has been) to raise the DPS check for players even further, which is not the case either. Content difficulty can certainly be raised via mechanics and other means instead of simply the blend DPS check.

    And in case you missed it, people primarily complain how the jungle is so difficult to survive instead of how they feel inadequate with insufficient DPS.

    As for builds, though I am of course limited to my own experience, I have yet to learn any build completely not viable for any content. Even for Fractals and Dungeons if you can find a group of people who are willing to run with you in non-meta low DPS builds, chances are that you will eventually grind the boss down as long as you can survive it. The reason meta builds are as such in PvE is more often that they are more "efficient" in terms of the time needed to complete a certain content, so that less time is wasted on the grind, than that they are the only few tactics that actually work.

    DPS is an important metric for HoT and PoF. For players doing <10K with berserker gear, they are going to be doing so much less if they use alternative gear (e.g. soldiers) and add in more defensive traits). I have seen many players doing between 2K and 6K, including those with HoT and PoF elites.

    DPS is important. One thing that decreases your DPS is being downed. Another thing that decreases your DPS is being dead, and having to be revived or to WP. Blinds, etc, also reduce DPS. So I am using DPS in a possibly more generic way than others do. Why is the jungle so hard to survive? One either kills things, or moves past them.

    A problem with increasing the mechanics is that people like me, with higher ping, have to predict what is going to happen ahead of time because I often have to counter something before I see it on my screen. This occurs on even relatively basic open-world content, like trying to jump over Tequatl's waves. With _fluctuating _ OCX ping, it's a bit hit-and-miss for me. In more advanced content, I get hit with things I don't even see coming. Predictive dodging is a "thing". And if people are having problems with current content, I'm not sure that increasing the difficulty level of mechanics is a good alternative.

    W.r.t. the video posted earlier, to which you refer and which was posted after my comment, that is ONE profession using ONE build, which has a particularly large number of counters/damage. It cannot be extrapolated to other professions. Which then comes back to my point that certain professions/builds just have more viability than others. This then shifts the problem somewhat onto build rather than player skill. And yes, off-meta builds are viable, but only when played by people who know what they are doing. Meta-builds are meta-builds for a reason. And the players who are having problems with content are unlikely to be in that category. And then we return to the implicit point that people need to "git gud" or "l2p". We know that certain builds require more skill level to play well, e.g. weaver, which again illustrates the fact that the ease of playing content depends on the profession and build.

    And while a number of you here are arguing "look, everyone can do it if they try", that's assuming that other people aren't trying. I don't know the content that is presenting the most difficulty. I have assumed it is problems with being attacked by multiple mobs, and that the people don't have gliding and/or mounts. Maybe they're having problems being caught up with a returning mob train that another player created. We don't know what skills they have or haven't unlocked. Gliding and mounts make bypassing mobs trivial in HoT. But not all players have those. However, I am simply guessing here, along with everyone else.

    I believe we need to clarify the usage of the term DPS here. The general usage of this term is to describe the potential damage overtime one may achieve with a certain build with a more or less predefined skill rotation in the lab. In your text, however, it now seems to me to be the de facto damage overtime one manages to output regardless of their build in a real combat scenario. And since people tend to run glass cannon in the open world, it may serve as a metric, or at least an indicator, to measure how well one performs.

    If that is the case, then I see now where you are going with this.

    The video was brought up to serve as an example that even a build with subpar potential (though as it turned out, also real-world) DPS can be utilized effectively against difficult opponents in the game. But since we were using the term DPS with entirely different definitions in mind, there is no point to dig into this further.

    So, now, here is the things that I do not get. In kharmin's comment, is is stated that:

    @kharmin.7683 said:
    The content shouldn't dictate the profession one needs to play. All professions should be able to manage through it, perhaps some easier than others. Yes, content can (and arguably should?) make a player change their build or concept of their character to have an easier time, but it shouldn't be merciful to one or two professions at the cost of the others.

    To put it in other words, that is:

    1. All professions should be able to manage all contents.
    2. It is OK if certain content is easier for some professions than others.
    3. Not all builds should be able to manage all contents (at least not necessarilywith ease), since "content can and arguably should make one change their build to have an easier time".

    In your comment, though, you brought up the point that, certain contents, for example,

    @Hesione.9412 said:
    [t]he story should be easily achievable for casual players with any build/profession.

    (The italic effect is added by me to highlight the difference.)

    ...which is not an expansion of kharmin's point but rather the opposition to that, and also the reason why in my first comment I pointed out I agreed with kharmin more.

    As for latency and ping spike, while I too play from somewhere with unstable connection, I wonder if the technical issues can be at least alleviated by the developers via technical approaches instead of design consideration. As I mentioned early, current core story levels actually suffer from being too easy, and the same goes for HoT open world contents if the difficulty is to be further reduced. It just seems to me nonsensical to negatively impact everyone's experience with bad design decision to solve a technical issue. And while this might sound to you like telling people to "get gud/l2p", still, I gotta say that predictive measures is a thing regardless of connection quality.

    And by the way, in case anyone has not learnt it: it is easier to dodge the waves Tequatl causes by jump toward the ripple than just jumping up. Hope this helps.

  • Cerioth.7062Cerioth.7062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Hot is not "easy to solo" gliders and mounts help a lot.. try soloing without them.. New customers have to.. Classes are so unbalanced a Engi, Necro and a Guardian can storm through the maps while Warrior, Ele and Mesmer get killed every second.. Even Rangers and Revenants have some issues..

    No you aren't right op.. sorry but you are very wrong.. you are a niche in this game.

    @Cerioth.7062 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @Cerioth.7062 said:
    Honestly most of the issues described here would be fixed by introducing better core game tutorialization that forces you to learn your abilities and counter mobs.

    Perhaps, so, but I don't really like things that are 'forced'. /shrug

    Why even bother playing the game if you do not want to learn its mechanics? How is the game going to make you learn gameplay if you can indefinitely avoid it?

    Obviously it does not have to be a per character thing, can just be once per account thing that you can repeat as needed.

    Its not the mechanics to learn i'm on 250ping as an Aussie and hot is inundated with cheap shot mechanics designed to bully customers to death.. not fun in the slightest to play.. Even as an 8 year vet i try to avoid Hot and i've only ever completed pof once.. its just not a fun aspect to deal with daily..

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Croc.1978 said:
    Yes, difficulty in HoT is fine as it is.

    That said, there's really nothing that prepares players for what awaits them in the green hell before they enter it. They probably intended Silverwastes to be that preparation, but it doesn't work. And nerfing Orr post-release was a mistake.

    I guess the best advise you could give new players now is:

    • play Orr
    • play Silverwastes (not RIBA) for a while
    • start PoF and get at least Raptor with canyon jump
    • enter Verdant Brink

    I think the best advice is toncomplete pof and play hot as a prequel.

    That wont help you need minimum Glider, Bunny and a Flying mount to avoid a good chunk of deaths..

    I have played through that same content with high ping as well, and do not feel bullied in the slightest. I also have a plenty of 300 ping AUS and asian friends who do not struggle with the content.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cerioth.7062 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Hot is not "easy to solo" gliders and mounts help a lot.. try soloing without them.. New customers have to.. Classes are so unbalanced a Engi, Necro and a Guardian can storm through the maps while Warrior, Ele and Mesmer get killed every second.. Even Rangers and Revenants have some issues..

    No you aren't right op.. sorry but you are very wrong.. you are a niche in this game.

    @Cerioth.7062 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @Cerioth.7062 said:
    Honestly most of the issues described here would be fixed by introducing better core game tutorialization that forces you to learn your abilities and counter mobs.

    Perhaps, so, but I don't really like things that are 'forced'. /shrug

    Why even bother playing the game if you do not want to learn its mechanics? How is the game going to make you learn gameplay if you can indefinitely avoid it?

    Obviously it does not have to be a per character thing, can just be once per account thing that you can repeat as needed.

    Its not the mechanics to learn i'm on 250ping as an Aussie and hot is inundated with cheap shot mechanics designed to bully customers to death.. not fun in the slightest to play.. Even as an 8 year vet i try to avoid Hot and i've only ever completed pof once.. its just not a fun aspect to deal with daily..

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Croc.1978 said:
    Yes, difficulty in HoT is fine as it is.

    That said, there's really nothing that prepares players for what awaits them in the green hell before they enter it. They probably intended Silverwastes to be that preparation, but it doesn't work. And nerfing Orr post-release was a mistake.

    I guess the best advise you could give new players now is:

    • play Orr
    • play Silverwastes (not RIBA) for a while
    • start PoF and get at least Raptor with canyon jump
    • enter Verdant Brink

    I think the best advice is toncomplete pof and play hot as a prequel.

    That wont help you need minimum Glider, Bunny and a Flying mount to avoid a good chunk of deaths..

    I have played through that same content with high ping as well, and do not feel bullied in the slightest. I also have a plenty of 300 ping AUS and asian friends who do not struggle with the content.

    You dont need flying mount or glider in pof.

  • Dante.1508Dante.1508 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 13, 2020

    @Cerioth.7062 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Hot is not "easy to solo" gliders and mounts help a lot.. try soloing without them.. New customers have to.. Classes are so unbalanced a Engi, Necro and a Guardian can storm through the maps while Warrior, Ele and Mesmer get killed every second.. Even Rangers and Revenants have some issues..

    No you aren't right op.. sorry but you are very wrong.. you are a niche in this game.

    @Cerioth.7062 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @Cerioth.7062 said:
    Honestly most of the issues described here would be fixed by introducing better core game tutorialization that forces you to learn your abilities and counter mobs.

    Perhaps, so, but I don't really like things that are 'forced'. /shrug

    Why even bother playing the game if you do not want to learn its mechanics? How is the game going to make you learn gameplay if you can indefinitely avoid it?

    Obviously it does not have to be a per character thing, can just be once per account thing that you can repeat as needed.

    Its not the mechanics to learn i'm on 250ping as an Aussie and hot is inundated with cheap shot mechanics designed to bully customers to death.. not fun in the slightest to play.. Even as an 8 year vet i try to avoid Hot and i've only ever completed pof once.. its just not a fun aspect to deal with daily..

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Croc.1978 said:
    Yes, difficulty in HoT is fine as it is.

    That said, there's really nothing that prepares players for what awaits them in the green hell before they enter it. They probably intended Silverwastes to be that preparation, but it doesn't work. And nerfing Orr post-release was a mistake.

    I guess the best advise you could give new players now is:

    • play Orr
    • play Silverwastes (not RIBA) for a while
    • start PoF and get at least Raptor with canyon jump
    • enter Verdant Brink

    I think the best advice is toncomplete pof and play hot as a prequel.

    That wont help you need minimum Glider, Bunny and a Flying mount to avoid a good chunk of deaths..

    I have played through that same content with high ping as well, and do not feel bullied in the slightest. I also have a plenty of 300 ping AUS and asian friends who do not struggle with the content.

    Great and i have a lot that say otherwise. we go round and around.. even yesterday i saw customers angry an frustrated in hot.. that isn't good gaming imo. Also i don't know if it was my time zone but for me Tangled Depths was beyond empty mostly.. not even events.

  • @Dante.1508 said:

    @Cerioth.7062 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Hot is not "easy to solo" gliders and mounts help a lot.. try soloing without them.. New customers have to.. Classes are so unbalanced a Engi, Necro and a Guardian can storm through the maps while Warrior, Ele and Mesmer get killed every second.. Even Rangers and Revenants have some issues..

    No you aren't right op.. sorry but you are very wrong.. you are a niche in this game.

    @Cerioth.7062 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @Cerioth.7062 said:
    Honestly most of the issues described here would be fixed by introducing better core game tutorialization that forces you to learn your abilities and counter mobs.

    Perhaps, so, but I don't really like things that are 'forced'. /shrug

    Why even bother playing the game if you do not want to learn its mechanics? How is the game going to make you learn gameplay if you can indefinitely avoid it?

    Obviously it does not have to be a per character thing, can just be once per account thing that you can repeat as needed.

    Its not the mechanics to learn i'm on 250ping as an Aussie and hot is inundated with cheap shot mechanics designed to bully customers to death.. not fun in the slightest to play.. Even as an 8 year vet i try to avoid Hot and i've only ever completed pof once.. its just not a fun aspect to deal with daily..

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Croc.1978 said:
    Yes, difficulty in HoT is fine as it is.

    That said, there's really nothing that prepares players for what awaits them in the green hell before they enter it. They probably intended Silverwastes to be that preparation, but it doesn't work. And nerfing Orr post-release was a mistake.

    I guess the best advise you could give new players now is:

    • play Orr
    • play Silverwastes (not RIBA) for a while
    • start PoF and get at least Raptor with canyon jump
    • enter Verdant Brink

    I think the best advice is toncomplete pof and play hot as a prequel.

    That wont help you need minimum Glider, Bunny and a Flying mount to avoid a good chunk of deaths..

    I have played through that same content with high ping as well, and do not feel bullied in the slightest. I also have a plenty of 300 ping AUS and asian friends who do not struggle with the content.

    Great and i have a lot that say otherwise. we go round and around.. even yesterday i saw customers angry an frustrated in hot.. that isn't good gaming imo. Also i don't know if it was my time zone but for me Tangled Depths was beyond empty mostly.. not even events.

    My sister used to get upset and throw the pieces in Candyland. She wasn't as eloquent as you are, but I believe she would have agreed that that isn't good gaming.

  • Dante.1508Dante.1508 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 13, 2020

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Hot is not "easy to solo" gliders and mounts help a lot.. try soloing without them.. New customers have to.. Classes are so unbalanced a Engi, Necro and a Guardian can storm through the maps while Warrior, Ele and Mesmer get killed every second.. Even Rangers and Revenants have some issues..

    No you aren't right op.. sorry but you are very wrong.. you are a niche in this game.

    @Cerioth.7062 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @Cerioth.7062 said:
    Honestly most of the issues described here would be fixed by introducing better core game tutorialization that forces you to learn your abilities and counter mobs.

    Perhaps, so, but I don't really like things that are 'forced'. /shrug

    Why even bother playing the game if you do not want to learn its mechanics? How is the game going to make you learn gameplay if you can indefinitely avoid it?

    Obviously it does not have to be a per character thing, can just be once per account thing that you can repeat as needed.

    Its not the mechanics to learn i'm on 250ping as an Aussie and hot is inundated with cheap shot mechanics designed to bully customers to death.. not fun in the slightest to play.. Even as an 8 year vet i try to avoid Hot and i've only ever completed pof once.. its just not a fun aspect to deal with daily..

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Croc.1978 said:
    Yes, difficulty in HoT is fine as it is.

    That said, there's really nothing that prepares players for what awaits them in the green hell before they enter it. They probably intended Silverwastes to be that preparation, but it doesn't work. And nerfing Orr post-release was a mistake.

    I guess the best advise you could give new players now is:

    • play Orr
    • play Silverwastes (not RIBA) for a while
    • start PoF and get at least Raptor with canyon jump
    • enter Verdant Brink

    I think the best advice is toncomplete pof and play hot as a prequel.

    That wont help you need minimum Glider, Bunny and a Flying mount to avoid a good chunk of deaths..

    In case anyone was actually planning to listen to this guy, let me just save you the trouble with this video of an HoT champion solo that anyone (even Dante here!) can do. As a bonus, I'm wearing green gear that costs about 2s per piece so anyone can afford it. I've also slotted all signets for utilities and no weapon swap to avoid any complications. You can literally just push buttons at random with this build and win. The only thing that matters is pushing dodge and auto attack over and over.

    Seriously, Dante, do yourself a favor and try this. You might begin to realize what people are trying to tell you and what you never could have learned playing through content once and then complaining about it endlessly for years. Find a build that works. This one happens to work even if you don't want to!

    I can pass that one.. i noticed you used stave mesmer not greatsword? did you try elementalist? also try the tengu or vinetooth.. try the chak and rolling thing.. You cherry pick a relatively easy one and say Hot is doable.. Try soloing Tangled depths hero points i soloed about 2 in that map.. the rest obliterated me.

    Lets see you do Balthazar solo.

  • @Dante.1508 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Hot is not "easy to solo" gliders and mounts help a lot.. try soloing without them.. New customers have to.. Classes are so unbalanced a Engi, Necro and a Guardian can storm through the maps while Warrior, Ele and Mesmer get killed every second.. Even Rangers and Revenants have some issues..

    No you aren't right op.. sorry but you are very wrong.. you are a niche in this game.

    @Cerioth.7062 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @Cerioth.7062 said:
    Honestly most of the issues described here would be fixed by introducing better core game tutorialization that forces you to learn your abilities and counter mobs.

    Perhaps, so, but I don't really like things that are 'forced'. /shrug

    Why even bother playing the game if you do not want to learn its mechanics? How is the game going to make you learn gameplay if you can indefinitely avoid it?

    Obviously it does not have to be a per character thing, can just be once per account thing that you can repeat as needed.

    Its not the mechanics to learn i'm on 250ping as an Aussie and hot is inundated with cheap shot mechanics designed to bully customers to death.. not fun in the slightest to play.. Even as an 8 year vet i try to avoid Hot and i've only ever completed pof once.. its just not a fun aspect to deal with daily..

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Croc.1978 said:
    Yes, difficulty in HoT is fine as it is.

    That said, there's really nothing that prepares players for what awaits them in the green hell before they enter it. They probably intended Silverwastes to be that preparation, but it doesn't work. And nerfing Orr post-release was a mistake.

    I guess the best advise you could give new players now is:

    • play Orr
    • play Silverwastes (not RIBA) for a while
    • start PoF and get at least Raptor with canyon jump
    • enter Verdant Brink

    I think the best advice is toncomplete pof and play hot as a prequel.

    That wont help you need minimum Glider, Bunny and a Flying mount to avoid a good chunk of deaths..

    In case anyone was actually planning to listen to this guy, let me just save you the trouble with this video of an HoT champion solo that anyone (even Dante here!) can do. As a bonus, I'm wearing green gear that costs about 2s per piece so anyone can afford it. I've also slotted all signets for utilities and no weapon swap to avoid any complications. You can literally just push buttons at random with this build and win. The only thing that matters is pushing dodge and auto attack over and over.

    Seriously, Dante, do yourself a favor and try this. You might begin to realize what people are trying to tell you and what you never could have learned playing through content once and then complaining about it endlessly for years. Find a build that works. This one happens to work even if you don't want to!

    I can pass that one.. i noticed you used stave mesmer not greatsword? did you try elementalist? also try the tengu or vinetooth.. try the chak and rolling thing.. You cherry pick a relatively easy one and say Hot is doable.. Try soloing Tangled depths hero points i soloed about 2 in that map.. the rest obliterated me.

    Lets see you do Balthazar solo.

    Sure thing, chief.

  • Dante.1508Dante.1508 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 13, 2020

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Hot is not "easy to solo" gliders and mounts help a lot.. try soloing without them.. New customers have to.. Classes are so unbalanced a Engi, Necro and a Guardian can storm through the maps while Warrior, Ele and Mesmer get killed every second.. Even Rangers and Revenants have some issues..

    No you aren't right op.. sorry but you are very wrong.. you are a niche in this game.

    @Cerioth.7062 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @Cerioth.7062 said:
    Honestly most of the issues described here would be fixed by introducing better core game tutorialization that forces you to learn your abilities and counter mobs.

    Perhaps, so, but I don't really like things that are 'forced'. /shrug

    Why even bother playing the game if you do not want to learn its mechanics? How is the game going to make you learn gameplay if you can indefinitely avoid it?

    Obviously it does not have to be a per character thing, can just be once per account thing that you can repeat as needed.

    Its not the mechanics to learn i'm on 250ping as an Aussie and hot is inundated with cheap shot mechanics designed to bully customers to death.. not fun in the slightest to play.. Even as an 8 year vet i try to avoid Hot and i've only ever completed pof once.. its just not a fun aspect to deal with daily..

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Croc.1978 said:
    Yes, difficulty in HoT is fine as it is.

    That said, there's really nothing that prepares players for what awaits them in the green hell before they enter it. They probably intended Silverwastes to be that preparation, but it doesn't work. And nerfing Orr post-release was a mistake.

    I guess the best advise you could give new players now is:

    • play Orr
    • play Silverwastes (not RIBA) for a while
    • start PoF and get at least Raptor with canyon jump
    • enter Verdant Brink

    I think the best advice is toncomplete pof and play hot as a prequel.

    That wont help you need minimum Glider, Bunny and a Flying mount to avoid a good chunk of deaths..

    In case anyone was actually planning to listen to this guy, let me just save you the trouble with this video of an HoT champion solo that anyone (even Dante here!) can do. As a bonus, I'm wearing green gear that costs about 2s per piece so anyone can afford it. I've also slotted all signets for utilities and no weapon swap to avoid any complications. You can literally just push buttons at random with this build and win. The only thing that matters is pushing dodge and auto attack over and over.

    Seriously, Dante, do yourself a favor and try this. You might begin to realize what people are trying to tell you and what you never could have learned playing through content once and then complaining about it endlessly for years. Find a build that works. This one happens to work even if you don't want to!

    I can pass that one.. i noticed you used stave mesmer not greatsword? did you try elementalist? also try the tengu or vinetooth.. try the chak and rolling thing.. You cherry pick a relatively easy one and say Hot is doable.. Try soloing Tangled depths hero points i soloed about 2 in that map.. the rest obliterated me.

    Lets see you do Balthazar solo.

    Sure thing, chief.

    I bet those aren't you, and those are half a year ago.. before a lot of changes especially the mushroom it was in Jan, but kudos to those players, i wish i had ping times to rival those players..

  • Astyrah.4015Astyrah.4015 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:
    -videos- && -threads-

    btw i enjoy some of your solo-kill vids especially those legendary bounties. really good stuff

  • @Astyrah.4015 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:
    -videos- && -threads-

    btw i enjoy some of your solo-kill vids especially those legendary bounties. really good stuff

    Hey, thanks! Glad you like!

  • @Croc.1978 said:
    Yes, difficulty in HoT is fine as it is.

    That said, there's really nothing that prepares players for what awaits them in the green hell before they enter it. They probably intended Silverwastes to be that preparation, but it doesn't work. And nerfing Orr post-release was a mistake.

    I guess the best advise you could give new players now is:

    • play Orr
    • play Silverwastes (not RIBA) for a while
    • start PoF and get at least Raptor with canyon jump
    • enter Verdant Brink

    as a relatively new player to GW2 i wish i was told this way earlier. Orr was a bit of a pain (mostly beacuse the amount of mobs packed litterly everywhere) but it was atleast doable even if i never want to repeat that storyline again. Then i head into HoT since i didnt have the living world seasons and all i can say its not been a fun ride. Everything from HP being either 1 mile above or under you, or in a cave somewhere to mobs ripping you apart or knocking you off platforms. continue with the story and it doesnt really get any better when you get to the maze for example that 1 shots you if you arent quick enought. Dont get me wrong, i dont mind a challenge but HoT so far have been frustrating from start to finish, its not something i want to repeat again which is a shame beacuse i do like storybased games. but unless you play something with a personal tank like ranger or full plate armor with full exotics, its not going to be a fun experience. I dont expect to be powerful but HoT have taken it a bit too far sadly this have lead to im taking a break from the game beacuse i just get frustrated when im supposed to have fun. I know that i dont play perfect but the difficulty spike truly is off the charts if you compare it with the base game.

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Makaloff.7912 said:

    @Croc.1978 said:
    Yes, difficulty in HoT is fine as it is.

    That said, there's really nothing that prepares players for what awaits them in the green hell before they enter it. They probably intended Silverwastes to be that preparation, but it doesn't work. And nerfing Orr post-release was a mistake.

    I guess the best advise you could give new players now is:

    • play Orr
    • play Silverwastes (not RIBA) for a while
    • start PoF and get at least Raptor with canyon jump
    • enter Verdant Brink

    as a relatively new player to GW2 i wish i was told this way earlier. Orr was a bit of a pain (mostly beacuse the amount of mobs packed litterly everywhere) but it was atleast doable even if i never want to repeat that storyline again. Then i head into HoT since i didnt have the living world seasons and all i can say its not been a fun ride. Everything from HP being either 1 mile above or under you, or in a cave somewhere to mobs ripping you apart or knocking you off platforms. continue with the story and it doesnt really get any better when you get to the maze for example that 1 shots you if you arent quick enought. Dont get me wrong, i dont mind a challenge but HoT so far have been frustrating from start to finish, its not something i want to repeat again which is a shame beacuse i do like storybased games. but unless you play something with a personal tank like ranger or full plate armor with full exotics, its not going to be a fun experience. I dont expect to be powerful but HoT have taken it a bit too far sadly this have lead to im taking a break from the game beacuse i just get frustrated when im supposed to have fun. I know that i dont play perfect but the difficulty spike truly is off the charts if you compare it with the base game.

    Yes and if you think Orr now was a pain thats nothing compared how it was at release before the nerfs.

  • @Linken.6345 said:

    @Makaloff.7912 said:

    @Croc.1978 said:
    Yes, difficulty in HoT is fine as it is.

    That said, there's really nothing that prepares players for what awaits them in the green hell before they enter it. They probably intended Silverwastes to be that preparation, but it doesn't work. And nerfing Orr post-release was a mistake.

    I guess the best advise you could give new players now is:

    • play Orr
    • play Silverwastes (not RIBA) for a while
    • start PoF and get at least Raptor with canyon jump
    • enter Verdant Brink

    as a relatively new player to GW2 i wish i was told this way earlier. Orr was a bit of a pain (mostly beacuse the amount of mobs packed litterly everywhere) but it was atleast doable even if i never want to repeat that storyline again. Then i head into HoT since i didnt have the living world seasons and all i can say its not been a fun ride. Everything from HP being either 1 mile above or under you, or in a cave somewhere to mobs ripping you apart or knocking you off platforms. continue with the story and it doesnt really get any better when you get to the maze for example that 1 shots you if you arent quick enought. Dont get me wrong, i dont mind a challenge but HoT so far have been frustrating from start to finish, its not something i want to repeat again which is a shame beacuse i do like storybased games. but unless you play something with a personal tank like ranger or full plate armor with full exotics, its not going to be a fun experience. I dont expect to be powerful but HoT have taken it a bit too far sadly this have lead to im taking a break from the game beacuse i just get frustrated when im supposed to have fun. I know that i dont play perfect but the difficulty spike truly is off the charts if you compare it with the base game.

    Yes and if you think Orr now was a pain thats nothing compared how it was at release before the nerfs.

    Orr mostly bugged me beacuse the amount of mobs and most of the teleport waypoints being contested alot. In terms of difficulty i couldnt complain but wasnt fun to run from A to B and have a massive horde of undead after you wherever you went XD

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Makaloff.7912 said:

    @Croc.1978 said:
    Yes, difficulty in HoT is fine as it is.

    That said, there's really nothing that prepares players for what awaits them in the green hell before they enter it. They probably intended Silverwastes to be that preparation, but it doesn't work. And nerfing Orr post-release was a mistake.

    I guess the best advise you could give new players now is:

    • play Orr
    • play Silverwastes (not RIBA) for a while
    • start PoF and get at least Raptor with canyon jump
    • enter Verdant Brink

    as a relatively new player to GW2 i wish i was told this way earlier. Orr was a bit of a pain (mostly beacuse the amount of mobs packed litterly everywhere) but it was atleast doable even if i never want to repeat that storyline again. Then i head into HoT since i didnt have the living world seasons and all i can say its not been a fun ride. Everything from HP being either 1 mile above or under you, or in a cave somewhere to mobs ripping you apart or knocking you off platforms. continue with the story and it doesnt really get any better when you get to the maze for example that 1 shots you if you arent quick enought. Dont get me wrong, i dont mind a challenge but HoT so far have been frustrating from start to finish, its not something i want to repeat again which is a shame beacuse i do like storybased games. but unless you play something with a personal tank like ranger or full plate armor with full exotics, its not going to be a fun experience. I dont expect to be powerful but HoT have taken it a bit too far sadly this have lead to im taking a break from the game beacuse i just get frustrated when im supposed to have fun. I know that i dont play perfect but the difficulty spike truly is off the charts if you compare it with the base game.

    Sorry for your experience. May I suggest asking for help in HoT maps? I've always had people respond and assist whenever I'm unable to accomplish something in those maps.

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Makaloff.7912 said:

    @Croc.1978 said:
    Yes, difficulty in HoT is fine as it is.

    That said, there's really nothing that prepares players for what awaits them in the green hell before they enter it. They probably intended Silverwastes to be that preparation, but it doesn't work. And nerfing Orr post-release was a mistake.

    I guess the best advise you could give new players now is:

    • play Orr
    • play Silverwastes (not RIBA) for a while
    • start PoF and get at least Raptor with canyon jump
    • enter Verdant Brink

    as a relatively new player to GW2 i wish i was told this way earlier. Orr was a bit of a pain (mostly beacuse the amount of mobs packed litterly everywhere) but it was atleast doable even if i never want to repeat that storyline again. Then i head into HoT since i didnt have the living world seasons and all i can say its not been a fun ride. Everything from HP being either 1 mile above or under you, or in a cave somewhere to mobs ripping you apart or knocking you off platforms. continue with the story and it doesnt really get any better when you get to the maze for example that 1 shots you if you arent quick enought. Dont get me wrong, i dont mind a challenge but HoT so far have been frustrating from start to finish, its not something i want to repeat again which is a shame beacuse i do like storybased games. but unless you play something with a personal tank like ranger or full plate armor with full exotics, its not going to be a fun experience. I dont expect to be powerful but HoT have taken it a bit too far sadly this have lead to im taking a break from the game beacuse i just get frustrated when im supposed to have fun. I know that i dont play perfect but the difficulty spike truly is off the charts if you compare it with the base game.

    Yes and if you think Orr now was a pain thats nothing compared how it was at release before the nerfs.

    Orr was never "hard", just "annoying". Orr was a pain on release because most mobs had CC abilities, cripple, immobilize, pull, chill and inflated health pools, but Orr mobs don't do much damage. You can kill any normal Risen mob only with auto-attacks, without ever dodging, using blue/green gear, that's how low their damage is. But since it takes quite a while to kill them with blue gear, they used to pile up quickly and combined with their higher density it made Orr a considerable slog to move through.

    Then i head into HoT since i didnt have the living world seasons and all i can say its not been a fun ride.

    This is a major issue because Anet still refuses to bundle Season 2 (the content between Core and HOT) with purchase of an expansion, creating this gigantic rift between core and expansion.

    I guess the best advise you could give new players now is:

    • play Orr
    • play Silverwastes (not RIBA) for a while
    • start PoF and get at least Raptor with canyon jump
    • enter Verdant Brink

    Silverwastes mobs were destroyed with the release of HOT, which is really puzzling all things considered. Why make the content that leads to the expansion significantly easier when you release the expansion?

  • Cerioth.7062Cerioth.7062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Cerioth.7062 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Hot is not "easy to solo" gliders and mounts help a lot.. try soloing without them.. New customers have to.. Classes are so unbalanced a Engi, Necro and a Guardian can storm through the maps while Warrior, Ele and Mesmer get killed every second.. Even Rangers and Revenants have some issues..

    No you aren't right op.. sorry but you are very wrong.. you are a niche in this game.

    @Cerioth.7062 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @Cerioth.7062 said:
    Honestly most of the issues described here would be fixed by introducing better core game tutorialization that forces you to learn your abilities and counter mobs.

    Perhaps, so, but I don't really like things that are 'forced'. /shrug

    Why even bother playing the game if you do not want to learn its mechanics? How is the game going to make you learn gameplay if you can indefinitely avoid it?

    Obviously it does not have to be a per character thing, can just be once per account thing that you can repeat as needed.

    Its not the mechanics to learn i'm on 250ping as an Aussie and hot is inundated with cheap shot mechanics designed to bully customers to death.. not fun in the slightest to play.. Even as an 8 year vet i try to avoid Hot and i've only ever completed pof once.. its just not a fun aspect to deal with daily..

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Croc.1978 said:
    Yes, difficulty in HoT is fine as it is.

    That said, there's really nothing that prepares players for what awaits them in the green hell before they enter it. They probably intended Silverwastes to be that preparation, but it doesn't work. And nerfing Orr post-release was a mistake.

    I guess the best advise you could give new players now is:

    • play Orr
    • play Silverwastes (not RIBA) for a while
    • start PoF and get at least Raptor with canyon jump
    • enter Verdant Brink

    I think the best advice is toncomplete pof and play hot as a prequel.

    That wont help you need minimum Glider, Bunny and a Flying mount to avoid a good chunk of deaths..

    I have played through that same content with high ping as well, and do not feel bullied in the slightest. I also have a plenty of 300 ping AUS and asian friends who do not struggle with the content.

    You dont need flying mount or glider in pof.

    Eh? Confused as to how this is relevant to anything. You indeed do not need those for PoF. Nor mounts for HoT.

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Cerioth.7062 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Hot is not "easy to solo" gliders and mounts help a lot.. try soloing without them.. New customers have to.. Classes are so unbalanced a Engi, Necro and a Guardian can storm through the maps while Warrior, Ele and Mesmer get killed every second.. Even Rangers and Revenants have some issues..

    No you aren't right op.. sorry but you are very wrong.. you are a niche in this game.

    @Cerioth.7062 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @Cerioth.7062 said:
    Honestly most of the issues described here would be fixed by introducing better core game tutorialization that forces you to learn your abilities and counter mobs.

    Perhaps, so, but I don't really like things that are 'forced'. /shrug

    Why even bother playing the game if you do not want to learn its mechanics? How is the game going to make you learn gameplay if you can indefinitely avoid it?

    Obviously it does not have to be a per character thing, can just be once per account thing that you can repeat as needed.

    Its not the mechanics to learn i'm on 250ping as an Aussie and hot is inundated with cheap shot mechanics designed to bully customers to death.. not fun in the slightest to play.. Even as an 8 year vet i try to avoid Hot and i've only ever completed pof once.. its just not a fun aspect to deal with daily..

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Croc.1978 said:
    Yes, difficulty in HoT is fine as it is.

    That said, there's really nothing that prepares players for what awaits them in the green hell before they enter it. They probably intended Silverwastes to be that preparation, but it doesn't work. And nerfing Orr post-release was a mistake.

    I guess the best advise you could give new players now is:

    • play Orr
    • play Silverwastes (not RIBA) for a while
    • start PoF and get at least Raptor with canyon jump
    • enter Verdant Brink

    I think the best advice is toncomplete pof and play hot as a prequel.

    That wont help you need minimum Glider, Bunny and a Flying mount to avoid a good chunk of deaths..

    I have played through that same content with high ping as well, and do not feel bullied in the slightest. I also have a plenty of 300 ping AUS and asian friends who do not struggle with the content.

    Great and i have a lot that say otherwise. we go round and around.. even yesterday i saw customers angry an frustrated in hot.. that isn't good gaming imo. Also i don't know if it was my time zone but for me Tangled Depths was beyond empty mostly.. not even events.

    Then perhaps it is time for all these individuals to look into what they can do in order to improve their own gameplay, instead of demanding for content to be nerfed.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cerioth.7062 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Cerioth.7062 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Hot is not "easy to solo" gliders and mounts help a lot.. try soloing without them.. New customers have to.. Classes are so unbalanced a Engi, Necro and a Guardian can storm through the maps while Warrior, Ele and Mesmer get killed every second.. Even Rangers and Revenants have some issues..

    No you aren't right op.. sorry but you are very wrong.. you are a niche in this game.

    @Cerioth.7062 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @Cerioth.7062 said:
    Honestly most of the issues described here would be fixed by introducing better core game tutorialization that forces you to learn your abilities and counter mobs.

    Perhaps, so, but I don't really like things that are 'forced'. /shrug

    Why even bother playing the game if you do not want to learn its mechanics? How is the game going to make you learn gameplay if you can indefinitely avoid it?

    Obviously it does not have to be a per character thing, can just be once per account thing that you can repeat as needed.

    Its not the mechanics to learn i'm on 250ping as an Aussie and hot is inundated with cheap shot mechanics designed to bully customers to death.. not fun in the slightest to play.. Even as an 8 year vet i try to avoid Hot and i've only ever completed pof once.. its just not a fun aspect to deal with daily..

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Croc.1978 said:
    Yes, difficulty in HoT is fine as it is.

    That said, there's really nothing that prepares players for what awaits them in the green hell before they enter it. They probably intended Silverwastes to be that preparation, but it doesn't work. And nerfing Orr post-release was a mistake.

    I guess the best advise you could give new players now is:

    • play Orr
    • play Silverwastes (not RIBA) for a while
    • start PoF and get at least Raptor with canyon jump
    • enter Verdant Brink

    I think the best advice is toncomplete pof and play hot as a prequel.

    That wont help you need minimum Glider, Bunny and a Flying mount to avoid a good chunk of deaths..

    I have played through that same content with high ping as well, and do not feel bullied in the slightest. I also have a plenty of 300 ping AUS and asian friends who do not struggle with the content.

    You dont need flying mount or glider in pof.

    Eh? Confused as to how this is relevant to anything. You indeed do not need those for PoF. Nor mounts for HoT.

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Cerioth.7062 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Hot is not "easy to solo" gliders and mounts help a lot.. try soloing without them.. New customers have to.. Classes are so unbalanced a Engi, Necro and a Guardian can storm through the maps while Warrior, Ele and Mesmer get killed every second.. Even Rangers and Revenants have some issues..

    No you aren't right op.. sorry but you are very wrong.. you are a niche in this game.

    @Cerioth.7062 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @Cerioth.7062 said:
    Honestly most of the issues described here would be fixed by introducing better core game tutorialization that forces you to learn your abilities and counter mobs.

    Perhaps, so, but I don't really like things that are 'forced'. /shrug

    Why even bother playing the game if you do not want to learn its mechanics? How is the game going to make you learn gameplay if you can indefinitely avoid it?

    Obviously it does not have to be a per character thing, can just be once per account thing that you can repeat as needed.

    Its not the mechanics to learn i'm on 250ping as an Aussie and hot is inundated with cheap shot mechanics designed to bully customers to death.. not fun in the slightest to play.. Even as an 8 year vet i try to avoid Hot and i've only ever completed pof once.. its just not a fun aspect to deal with daily..

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Croc.1978 said:
    Yes, difficulty in HoT is fine as it is.

    That said, there's really nothing that prepares players for what awaits them in the green hell before they enter it. They probably intended Silverwastes to be that preparation, but it doesn't work. And nerfing Orr post-release was a mistake.

    I guess the best advise you could give new players now is:

    • play Orr
    • play Silverwastes (not RIBA) for a while
    • start PoF and get at least Raptor with canyon jump
    • enter Verdant Brink

    I think the best advice is toncomplete pof and play hot as a prequel.

    That wont help you need minimum Glider, Bunny and a Flying mount to avoid a good chunk of deaths..

    I have played through that same content with high ping as well, and do not feel bullied in the slightest. I also have a plenty of 300 ping AUS and asian friends who do not struggle with the content.

    Great and i have a lot that say otherwise. we go round and around.. even yesterday i saw customers angry an frustrated in hot.. that isn't good gaming imo. Also i don't know if it was my time zone but for me Tangled Depths was beyond empty mostly.. not even events.

    Then perhaps it is time for all these individuals to look into what they can do in order to improve their own gameplay, instead of demanding for content to be nerfed.

    Someone someone suggested that you need to get the raptor so you should do the first part of pof before hot which to me seeks weird. You want to have some kind of narrative structure so doing 1 part of pof going back to hot and then going back to pof to finish it seems weird to me.

  • @AliamRationem.5172 said:
    I'm not sure I agree that the only issue with PoF is the aggro range. Take that away and change nothing else and you'll still have huge, empty maps with not much going on. Apparently, that's what some players enjoy, but I think the persistent activity of the HoT maps is evidence that players enjoy that sort of group activity.

    It's not just about that. HoT maps weren't doing all that well either until Anet significantly increased rewards all over, instead of condensing everything just to the last map meta and until difficulty of some metas (like Gerent) got nerfed.

    PoF not only does not have a good level of intermediate rewards, but is severely lacking in the very rewarding big event chains. HoT metas, as they are now, do not require from players all that much, and are still very rewarding. PoF metas on the other hand are either non-existent, or offer poor rewards while requiring a lot of effort and engagement (see Serpent's Ire). There were some metas added later, in LS4, that had a "good" (according to many players) effort to rewards ratio - and those were very popular. Too bad Anet didn't use any experience from this to improve the situation of main PoF maps.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Virtuality.8351Virtuality.8351 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 13, 2020

    Regarding connection quality and the negative impact it could cause to gameplay, I'd like to just remind everyone that, latency and ping spike are two entirely different things.

    For example, I regularly get 250 or so ping but only occasionally 1k+ ping spike. Therefore, I have come to the point that my reflex takes latency into account, since it is most of the time steady. For some people, however, they regularly suffer from both, which could lead to terrible playing experience.

    Though, as I stated above in another comment, that I still believe technical problems is to be better solved with technical approaches instead of design consideration. If there are enough people having the same issue speaking up about it and maybe initiate something (I'd recommend to start a new thread about it), the developers can look into it and hopefully alleviate the problem.

  • Croc.1978Croc.1978 Member ✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Makaloff.7912 said:

    @Croc.1978 said:
    Yes, difficulty in HoT is fine as it is.

    That said, there's really nothing that prepares players for what awaits them in the green hell before they enter it. They probably intended Silverwastes to be that preparation, but it doesn't work. And nerfing Orr post-release was a mistake.

    I guess the best advise you could give new players now is:

    • play Orr
    • play Silverwastes (not RIBA) for a while
    • start PoF and get at least Raptor with canyon jump
    • enter Verdant Brink

    as a relatively new player to GW2 i wish i was told this way earlier. Orr was a bit of a pain (mostly beacuse the amount of mobs packed litterly everywhere) but it was atleast doable even if i never want to repeat that storyline again. Then i head into HoT since i didnt have the living world seasons and all i can say its not been a fun ride. Everything from HP being either 1 mile above or under you, or in a cave somewhere to mobs ripping you apart or knocking you off platforms. continue with the story and it doesnt really get any better when you get to the maze for example that 1 shots you if you arent quick enought. Dont get me wrong, i dont mind a challenge but HoT so far have been frustrating from start to finish, its not something i want to repeat again which is a shame beacuse i do like storybased games. but unless you play something with a personal tank like ranger or full plate armor with full exotics, its not going to be a fun experience. I dont expect to be powerful but HoT have taken it a bit too far sadly this have lead to im taking a break from the game beacuse i just get frustrated when im supposed to have fun. I know that i dont play perfect but the difficulty spike truly is off the charts if you compare it with the base game.

    Yes and if you think Orr now was a pain thats nothing compared how it was at release before the nerfs.

    Orr was never "hard", just "annoying". Orr was a pain on release because most mobs had CC abilities, cripple, immobilize, pull, chill and inflated health pools, but Orr mobs don't do much damage. You can kill any normal Risen mob only with auto-attacks, without ever dodging, using blue/green gear, that's how low their damage is. But since it takes quite a while to kill them with blue gear, they used to pile up quickly and combined with their higher density it made Orr a considerable slog to move through.

    To me Orr at release felt both hard and annoying. Annoying because of the things you mentioned and hard because you could easily be overwhelmed if you were not careful about what you aggroed (was playing melee Warrior).

    I remember very well my first time on the "wrong" side of the Straits. I found myself there all alone, with large groups of Risen in every direction around me, ready to kick my kitten. Really scared the kitten out of me. On the other hand, one adapts to circumstances. And a few weeks later I was doing daily Orichalcum gathering runs in Cursed Shore without much worry.

    I guess the best advise you could give new players now is:

    • play Orr
    • play Silverwastes (not RIBA) for a while
    • start PoF and get at least Raptor with canyon jump
    • enter Verdant Brink


    Silverwastes mobs were destroyed with the release of HOT, which is really puzzling all things considered. Why make the content that leads to the expansion significantly easier when you release the expansion?

    Didn't know that since I was not around when HoT released. Oh my, so many mistakes by ANet.