No, HoT should not be further nerfed. It is not meant to be the regular power fantasy. - Page 4 — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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No, HoT should not be further nerfed. It is not meant to be the regular power fantasy.

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  • @battledrone.8315 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    how do you explain THAT one? if all those happy players had done hot and beyond, that wouldnt be the case, would it?

    It simply means the vast majority of players that bought this game, and those that tried it since it got free, quit it a very very long time before reaching your "level".

    but if so many players, as you claim , had done hot and beyond, they would had earned more APS than me , right?
    i should be WAY further down the list, specially since i havent played for so long now.
    what happened to them? did they hurry up and uninstall the game before the achievement got registered?
    i also note, that your response validates the blizzard ratios even more.
    and its quite funny, that a filthy casual, like me, still did more, than the majority of players in this game

    That's exactly what happened. They took a brief look at the core game, said "What is this trash!?", uninstalled, and left. That leaves you at the 90th percentile of AP because you're still here while the vast majority of players who have tried this game didn't like it and left before they saw anything in the later game.

  • Healix.5819Healix.5819 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:
    That leaves you at the 90th percentile of AP because you're still here while the vast majority of players who have tried this game didn't like it and left before they saw anything in the later game.

    Although the top 10% is only a few thousand AP minimum, getting that much can take a long time, or requires continuing through HoT+. The average new player is only going to have around 400~600 AP after reaching 80 and finishing the personal story.

  • edited September 22, 2020

    As a very new player of almost 4 months who basically hits ground every two minutes while roaming around solo in these areas - I really wouldn´t want Anet to make it easier - cause I´ve been playing MMOS since like forever and what drove me away (besides other stuff) was not even the slightest challenge during overland - pve content - it´s just so boring if you can one or two- hit everything once you hit max level and have your equip in order... so why bother to group up with anyone...

    What I wouldn´t mind though would be a less difficult mode for story instances - this is a part for me and for me only - since it´s my story and I die there more than it´s fun even when liking some challenge...

    ""I meant," said Ipslore bitterly, "what is there in this world that truly makes living worthwhile?"
    Death thought about it. CATS, he said eventually. CATS ARE NICE. "
    (Terry Pratchett)

    "I don't think..."
    "Then you shouldn't talk", said the Hatter.”
    (Lewis Carroll, Alice in Wonderland)

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Healix.5819 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:
    That leaves you at the 90th percentile of AP because you're still here while the vast majority of players who have tried this game didn't like it and left before they saw anything in the later game.

    Although the top 10% is only a few thousand AP minimum, getting that much can take a long time, or requires continuing through HoT+. The average new player is only going to have around 400~600 AP after reaching 80 and finishing the personal story.

    Unless they are one of the 7 million accounts that were created before HOT launched. What did those 7 million accounts do after reaching level 80 until HOT launched? left?

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 22, 2020

    @Healix.5819 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:
    That leaves you at the 90th percentile of AP because you're still here while the vast majority of players who have tried this game didn't like it and left before they saw anything in the later game.

    Although the top 10% is only a few thousand AP minimum, getting that much can take a long time, or requires continuing through HoT+. The average new player is only going to have around 400~600 AP after reaching 80 and finishing the personal story.

    Let me put it this way: the lowest AP person on my friends list is at 496 AP points. They are also listed as being at 60% at leaderboard. So, ~60% of players have below 500 AP.

    Correction, i looked at my guilds lists as well, and found someone at 394 AP - 60%, and someone at 300 - 50%. So, 60% of players are below 400 AP, and 50% are below 300. Meaning half of all players didn't even get to halfway point in the Core storyline.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Healix.5819 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:
    That leaves you at the 90th percentile of AP because you're still here while the vast majority of players who have tried this game didn't like it and left before they saw anything in the later game.

    Although the top 10% is only a few thousand AP minimum, getting that much can take a long time, or requires continuing through HoT+. The average new player is only going to have around 400~600 AP after reaching 80 and finishing the personal story.

    Let me put it this way: the lowest AP person on my friends list is at 496 AP points. They are also listed as being at 60% at leaderboard. So, ~60% of players have below 500 AP.

    Correction, i looked at my guilds lists as well, and found someone at 394 AP - 60%, and someone at 300 - 50%. So, 60% of players are below 400 AP, and 50% are below 300. Meaning half of all players didn't even get to halfway point in the Core storyline.

    Almost all of my 11 toons have stopped at the Claw Island chapter because I hated it.

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • @kharmin.7683 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Healix.5819 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:
    That leaves you at the 90th percentile of AP because you're still here while the vast majority of players who have tried this game didn't like it and left before they saw anything in the later game.

    Although the top 10% is only a few thousand AP minimum, getting that much can take a long time, or requires continuing through HoT+. The average new player is only going to have around 400~600 AP after reaching 80 and finishing the personal story.

    Let me put it this way: the lowest AP person on my friends list is at 496 AP points. They are also listed as being at 60% at leaderboard. So, ~60% of players have below 500 AP.

    Correction, i looked at my guilds lists as well, and found someone at 394 AP - 60%, and someone at 300 - 50%. So, 60% of players are below 400 AP, and 50% are below 300. Meaning half of all players didn't even get to halfway point in the Core storyline.

    Almost all of my 11 toons have stopped at the Claw Island chapter because I hated it.

    Isn't that the one where you can just stand around and the NPCs will kill it for you? Yeah, I hate that one, too.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:
    Almost all of my 11 toons have stopped at the Claw Island chapter because I hated it.

    Isn't that the one where you can just stand around and the NPCs will kill it for you? Yeah, I hate that one, too.

    It's the one where risen have massively inflated health pools and you watch them fight Pact members also with inflated health pools, in order to make the fight between the two sides take 1000000 hours without player assistance. I also hated the Claw Island instances, they were tedious and boring, although not as much as Forging the Pact, that instance takes the cake for worse sleep inducing instance in the game. In all those cases the problem was inflating the health pools of enemies, making even normal enemies damage sponges, to account for the player having an army with them. It's like going with a squad to do a HP run and you are the only one awake, the rest are mindless drones with white gear (if even that) and you must kill scaled up veterans and champions all by yourself.

  • Healix.5819Healix.5819 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    What did those 7 million accounts do after reaching level 80 until HOT launched? left?

    Naturally, most people quit, and most did so before 80. You'll see the same behavior in other MMOs, and RPGs / longer games in general.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Correction, i looked at my guilds lists as well, and found someone at 394 AP - 60%, and someone at 300 - 50%. So, 60% of players are below 400 AP, and 50% are below 300. Meaning half of all players didn't even get to halfway point in the Core storyline.

    40% have enough AP to have reached level 80 / completed the story. Although that may sound low, it's actually normal.

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:
    Isn't that the one where you can just stand around and the NPCs will kill it for you? Yeah, I hate that one, too.

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    It's the one where risen have massively inflated health pools and you watch them fight Pact members also with inflated health pools, in order to make the fight between the two sides take 1000000 hours without player assistance. I also hated the Claw Island instances, they were tedious and boring, although not as much as Forging the Pact, that instance takes the cake for worse sleep inducing instance in the game. In all those cases the problem was inflating the health pools of enemies, making even normal enemies damage sponges, to account for the player having an army with them. It's like going with a squad to do a HP run and you are the only one awake, the rest are mindless drones with white gear (if even that) and you must kill scaled up veterans and champions all by yourself.

    @AliamRationem.5172 What s/he said. Boring and tedious. In my opinion, didn't do much to advance the story other than to kill my "mentor".

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Healix.5819 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    What did those 7 million accounts do after reaching level 80 until HOT launched? left?

    Naturally, most people quit, and most did so before 80. You'll see the same behavior in other MMOs, and RPGs / longer games in general.

    That's obvious. I was responding to your argument

    getting that much can take a long time, or requires continuing through HoT+

    Most of those accounts DID have a long time until HOT was released, in fact 3 million of those had 3 full years. So if after 3 full years of the complete Season 1 and Season 2 they still had 400-600 AP when HOT launched, it means they weren't really playing the game, but rather left very early.

    The end result is the same no matter which way anyone looks at it: the Core game caused the overwhelming majority of accounts to stop playing, which is, as you said, normal behavior for MMOs and RPGs, but that DOES make the argument of HOT causing players to quit to be very shallow.

  • @WorldofBay.8160 said:

    you can post those effects in any chat. if you know you have trouble reading these kinds of effects in a battle try the following: open a whisper with yourself. ctrl + left click any icon you don't recognize immediately to post them all in your superprivate whisper. now you have those effects all in your chat, easily visible and readable (mouseover ofc still needed) and can read them mid-battle.
    i do that quite often, though i use guild chat as i have a rather empty guild where it doesn't bother others.

    Thanks for that tip!

    Especially in group events, the icons pop up and disappear so quickly, it's quite the challenge. I'll try the ctrl+left click. I have a tiny guild with just my family that I use for waypoint codes frequently.

  • GW Noob.6038GW Noob.6038 Member ✭✭✭

    You definitely don't want to nerf the HoT metas as they are pretty good just the way they are. If it weren't for the HoT metas I wouldn't even be playing this game today. Unfortunately, for me, I only find about 30% of the content that Anet has created to actually be enjoyable...I find the other 70% to be highly irritating, to one degree or another. So, yeah...leave the HoT maps alone!

  • Atomos.7593Atomos.7593 Member ✭✭✭✭

    HoT is fine for the so called "casual" players too. I have done it on characters that don't even have exotic gear. If you can dodge by pressing a single button to get out of red circles, both melee and ranged are viable, at least for all the classes I have played. Lag or high ping may be an issue for some, but I wouldn't want the entire game to change because some players have technical limitations or can't dodge.

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    how do you explain THAT one? if all those happy players had done hot and beyond, that wouldnt be the case, would it?

    It simply means the vast majority of players that bought this game, and those that tried it since it got free, quit it a very very long time before reaching your "level".

    but if so many players, as you claim , had done hot and beyond, they would had earned more APS than me , right?

    No because most players stopped playing a long time before reaching HOT, a long time before reaching Orr and a long time before even joining an Order (at level 50)

    i should be WAY further down the list, specially since i havent played for so long now.

    Exactly if core was popular you should be further down the list.

    what happened to them? did they hurry up and uninstall the game before the achievement got registered?

    Yes they left the game before reaching HOT, they quit because of the Core game wasn't good enough to grab their attention.

    and its quite funny, that a filthy casual, like me, still did more, than the majority of players in this game

    That's understandable since the majority of players in this game quit before reaching level level 50. That's how good/popular core was.

    core was good enough to sell over a mio hot copies at launch. and if hot was a success, we should see over mio players with the APs
    to PROVE that progress. WHERE ARE THEY? oh right, they DONT EXIST, because hot FAILED

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Healix.5819 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    What did those 7 million accounts do after reaching level 80 until HOT launched? left?

    Naturally, most people quit, and most did so before 80. You'll see the same behavior in other MMOs, and RPGs / longer games in general.

    That's obvious. I was responding to your argument

    getting that much can take a long time, or requires continuing through HoT+

    Most of those accounts DID have a long time until HOT was released, in fact 3 million of those had 3 full years. So if after 3 full years of the complete Season 1 and Season 2 they still had 400-600 AP when HOT launched, it means they weren't really playing the game, but rather left very early.

    The end result is the same no matter which way anyone looks at it: the Core game caused the overwhelming majority of accounts to stop playing, which is, as you said, normal behavior for MMOs and RPGs, but that DOES make the argument of HOT causing players to quit to be very shallow.

    finding a new mmo is almost like finding a new family. since it is supposed to be a long term relationship, it pretty much has to be a PERFECT match

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Healix.5819 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    What did those 7 million accounts do after reaching level 80 until HOT launched? left?

    Naturally, most people quit, and most did so before 80. You'll see the same behavior in other MMOs, and RPGs / longer games in general.

    That's obvious. I was responding to your argument

    getting that much can take a long time, or requires continuing through HoT+

    Most of those accounts DID have a long time until HOT was released, in fact 3 million of those had 3 full years. So if after 3 full years of the complete Season 1 and Season 2 they still had 400-600 AP when HOT launched, it means they weren't really playing the game, but rather left very early.

    The end result is the same no matter which way anyone looks at it: the Core game caused the overwhelming majority of accounts to stop playing, which is, as you said, normal behavior for MMOs and RPGs, but that DOES make the argument of HOT causing players to quit to be very shallow.

    i see your point, but core losses were prolly expected to be in that range from start. they are pretty much unavoidable.
    another thing is to actively push the players away. games, that do it this way rarely > @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    how do you explain THAT one? if all those happy players had done hot and beyond, that wouldnt be the case, would it?

    It simply means the vast majority of players that bought this game, and those that tried it since it got free, quit it a very very long time before reaching your "level".

    but if so many players, as you claim , had done hot and beyond, they would had earned more APS than me , right?
    i should be WAY further down the list, specially since i havent played for so long now.
    what happened to them? did they hurry up and uninstall the game before the achievement got registered?
    i also note, that your response validates the blizzard ratios even more.
    and its quite funny, that a filthy casual, like me, still did more, than the majority of players in this game

    That's exactly what happened. They took a brief look at the core game, said "What is this trash!?", uninstalled, and left. That leaves you at the 90th percentile of AP because you're still here while the vast majority of players who have tried this game didn't like it and left before they saw anything in the later game.

    even the mighty wow loses 80% of all players before they reach lvl 20. and that was when back, when it was still GOOD
    core was good enough to sell over a mio hot copies at launch, that is roughly industry standard too
    AFAIK it was roughy 500k for pof
    this all speaks for a strong start, but a weak ending

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    core was good enough to sell over a mio hot copies at launch. and if hot was a success, we should see over mio players with the APs
    to PROVE that progress. WHERE ARE THEY? oh right, they DONT EXIST, because hot FAILED

    You got it backwards. Core sold 5 million copies, we should see over 5 million players with AP equal or above to yours, to PROVE that it succeeded.
    Where are they? Where is the success of Core if a player like you that disliked the ending of Core and anything that came after it, has more AP than 90% of the playerbase?
    Oh right, it's industry standard for a core game to lose 90% of its customers and no cause for concern. Nice logic.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 23, 2020

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    finding a new mmo is almost like finding a new family. since it is supposed to be a long term relationship, it pretty much has to be a PERFECT match

    Maybe. Core lost the majority of its players though, so not enough players found it to be their "perfect match". Yet you call Core a success for some reason.

    core was good enough to sell over a mio hot copies at launch, that is roughly industry standard too
    AFAIK it was roughy 500k for pof

    There are 251,852 gw2efficiency accounts that own HOT and 248,440 accounts that own POF, that means from HOT to POF the game has been very stable.
    222,143 accounts have both expansions, meaning 30k accounts only have HOT and 26k accounts only have POF (these stopped playing before HOT was bundled with POF, otherwise they'd have HOT too). Still from HOT to POF the game has been very stable in terms of population, so I want to see your sources that clearly show that HOT launched with 1 million and POF launched with 500k because your claims are not supported by data.

    On another interesting note, using your unsupported claims, it means 50% of all POF accounts have a gw2efficiency account. I'm not sure gw2efficiency counts for such a high percentage of the total playerbase (by my estimates is closer to 14%) but if what you are claiming is true and half the currently active players have a gw2efficiency account then we can make some very interesting observations about what this community actually likes.

  • Luthan.5236Luthan.5236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    There isn't much to nerf. I did map completion, most achievements (except grindy weapon crafting collections) for HoT story + maps ... without a party. For the group content (hero challenges) always enough people have been on the maps. Either there are "trains" for these ... or people doing the meta or other stuff where you can just ask in map chat and they might help.

    Might be different if GW2 some day became a "dead game" with totally empty maps. (Though it seems even for GW1 still people are playing that. And here in GW2 enough players even in older maps.)

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    how do you explain THAT one? if all those happy players had done hot and beyond, that wouldnt be the case, would it?

    It simply means the vast majority of players that bought this game, and those that tried it since it got free, quit it a very very long time before reaching your "level".

    but if so many players, as you claim , had done hot and beyond, they would had earned more APS than me , right?

    No because most players stopped playing a long time before reaching HOT, a long time before reaching Orr and a long time before even joining an Order (at level 50)

    i should be WAY further down the list, specially since i havent played for so long now.

    Exactly if core was popular you should be further down the list.

    what happened to them? did they hurry up and uninstall the game before the achievement got registered?

    Yes they left the game before reaching HOT, they quit because of the Core game wasn't good enough to grab their attention.

    and its quite funny, that a filthy casual, like me, still did more, than the majority of players in this game

    That's understandable since the majority of players in this game quit before reaching level level 50. That's how good/popular core was.

    core was good enough to sell over a mio hot copies at launch. and if hot was a success, we should see over mio players with the APs
    to PROVE that progress. WHERE ARE THEY? oh right, they DONT EXIST, because hot FAILED

    What even is "mio"?
    And how many players quit that very same core game that you'll try to blame on new expansions? :D

  • Astyrah.4015Astyrah.4015 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    What even is "mio"?

    tbh i've been following this thread just reading the conversations and barely have an idea what a mio is. i just assumed the poster meant "million" but was too lazy to spell it out or even find sources/data for his claims.

    but yeah i did a google search (some results about what a mio could be):
    https://www.michigan.org/city/mio
    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/mio-
    https://www.makeitmio.com
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamaha_Mio

  • @Astyrah.4015 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    What even is "mio"?

    tbh i've been following this thread just reading the conversations and barely have an idea what a mio is. i just assumed the poster meant "million" but was too lazy to spell it out or even find sources/data for his claims.

    a mio is a million (in german)

    wikipedia says it on the disambiguation page which you should have read when you provide a wikipedia link:

    Mio., official German abbreviation for "million(s)"

  • Astyrah.4015Astyrah.4015 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 23, 2020

    @WorldofBay.8160 said:

    @Astyrah.4015 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    What even is "mio"?

    tbh i've been following this thread just reading the conversations and barely have an idea what a mio is. i just assumed the poster meant "million" but was too lazy to spell it out or even find sources/data for his claims.

    a mio is a million (in german)

    Thanks! well that's a TIL for me for someone who has 0% german (unless you count knowing two words: danke and bitte)

    @WorldofBay.8160 said:

    wikipedia says it on the disambiguation page which you should have read when you provide a wikipedia link:

    Mio., official German abbreviation for "million(s)"

    that Wikipedia link i provided didn't have a disambiguation on it on top of the page or anywhere in the whole page (see attached) and i clicked it straight from google search results instead of using wikipedia to search for it -nor- does searching for mio in google would yield the german for "million" unless you probably use google translate or have german google.com (which you have to go out of your way to do if you don't have a german IP address)


    but yeah thanks for the heads up and the little lesson! :)

  • >

    wikipedia is surprisingly good in showing abbreviations if you search directly there, it's always worth the try, it works more often than not
    quote just for the ping :-)

  • Astyrah.4015Astyrah.4015 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @WorldofBay.8160 said:

    >

    wikipedia is surprisingly good in showing abbreviations if you search directly there, it's always worth the try, it works more often than not
    quote just for the ping :-)

    yup! btw we're off topic and as fun to read as this whole thread is, i think the argument is going nowhere and has gone from talking about not lowering hot difficulty to APs-playtime-sales and what have you lol

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 24, 2020

    @Astyrah.4015 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    What even is "mio"?

    tbh i've been following this thread just reading the conversations and barely have an idea what a mio is. i just assumed the poster meant "million" but was too lazy to spell it out or even find sources/data for his claims.

    How else would you abbreviate million then?
    Mil already means thousand, so you can't go for that.

  • Astyrah.4015Astyrah.4015 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 24, 2020

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Astyrah.4015 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    What even is "mio"?

    tbh i've been following this thread just reading the conversations and barely have an idea what a mio is. i just assumed the poster meant "million" but was too lazy to spell it out or even find sources/data for his claims.

    How else would you abbreviate million then?
    Mil already means thousand, so you can't go for that.

    usually i've seen/read, in english atleast, "m" used for million or simply write million like what some replies here have done.

    i don't speak spanish for mil to be a thousand for me so it does not apply to me -- though i do know it means a thousand in that language

  • @Tukaram.8256 said:
    Y'all are talking about HoT being nerfed 'more'. Has it been nerfed some already? Honestly I did not enjoy it and have not gone back to it in a couple years. Pretty much got my glider and left. If it has been nerfed, I may go check it out again.

    ~Edit~ but my main issue was not the critter difficulty but the horrid map layout. The multi level map, I can do without.

    With mounts the multi layer maps isn't that difficult to navigate around, it is more TD that can be annoying when you haven't been there for some time as part is inside tunnels with different paths. Well reading a map do help to find a way there too, but it seem all hints for what is up and down for where nodes should be on minimap have gone...

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 24, 2020

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Astyrah.4015 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    What even is "mio"?

    tbh i've been following this thread just reading the conversations and barely have an idea what a mio is. i just assumed the poster meant "million" but was too lazy to spell it out or even find sources/data for his claims.

    How else would you abbreviate million then?
    Mil already means thousand, so you can't go for that.

    You usually use m/mil for million, and k for thousand. I haven't seen anyone using mil for thousand (well, except for you, obviously). It's indeed used as such in some measure names (like milimetre), but the abbreviation "mil" is not used there either - it's used as part of a full name. Or, more often, you use a proper specific abbreviation (mm in case of milimetre).

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.