Uhh..i'm not trying to be rude but does Anet have ANY idea what they are doing with class "balance"? — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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Uhh..i'm not trying to be rude but does Anet have ANY idea what they are doing with class "balance"?

Wrain.6792Wrain.6792 Member ✭✭
edited September 10, 2020 in PVP

So my friends and I started this game day of release many years ago. We played it for awhile, and eventually quit and went back to WoW. Came back for the expansions and again, played for awhile and quit.

So here I am back again...and after all these years decided to actually try a "different" class than my thief. I've spent a ton of money, bags, world map achievements etc..but something just kept telling me to re-roll a fresh 80. So low and behold, I buy all NEW bag slots, item slots, redo map achievements etc....NOT cool but fine OK. (this stuff should carry over seriously)

Roll a guardian...R U KIDDING MEEEE!!!!???

I go into PVE, i'm a god, I go into PvP, i'm a god. What kind of kitten is this??? I am literally smashing my face on my keyboard and just blowing stuff up left and right with burn damage all over and healing like a tornado...Is the thief class broken? Is this some kinda fluke/joke??? This cant be right. Why did I spend sooo much time/money on a busted class. I'm being honest, I'm only ranked gold on my thief but this isn't right/fair. I no longer think "necros/eng/guards/mes" are good players...I think I was playing with a handicap...and if this is "balance" I have NO idea what Anet has been doing all these years with this game.

Just my thoughts/2 cents but this balancing is insane. I should have rolled a guardian years ago.

Comments

  • Ragnar.4257Ragnar.4257 Member ✭✭✭

    You're surprised that a class that is designed to be quick but fragile is not as powerful as a class that is designed to be slow but powerful? Thief's strength isn't raw power, it's mobility.

    I don't think you've understood the roles involved here. Thief is considered a mandatory class in any competitive team. Guardian is not.

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    You can probably play almost anything that you like with enough stalling and disengaging.

    Guardian has always been the better starting class with a lot of aegis to save itself, which a lot of new players fall and die for by burning too many skills into those.

    The concept of AoE pressure with it can also be broken, but it's also easily countered by professions and players smart enough to not stand still into it with you then in the better case, use ranged weapons.

    If I had to conclude, guardian is pretty much noob proof class, people need to have some experience to figure out how to kill them properly.

    Willing to help with anything Revenant related.

  • Tharan.9085Tharan.9085 Member ✭✭✭

    While guardian is strong for ranked it falls of in tournaments a lot. Thief is a mandatory pick tho because of the utility it provides

  • @Ragnar.4257 said:
    You're surprised that a class that is designed to be quick but fragile is not as powerful as a class that is designed to be slow but powerful? Thief's strength isn't raw power, it's mobility.

    I don't think you've understood the roles involved here. Thief is considered a mandatory class in any competitive team. Guardian is not.

    I don't like "running" or capping all day. I fight. And powerful....not even close. Did you even read my post? The dots alone on this guardian blow away my max con spec thief...its a travesty. Class should be called "coward" and then let people know what they are getting into.

    As for the rest of the comments thanks guys for the understanding, I've now realized I was correct in my assessment.

  • Ragnar.4257Ragnar.4257 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 10, 2020

    @Wrain.6792 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:
    You're surprised that a class that is designed to be quick but fragile is not as powerful as a class that is designed to be slow but powerful? Thief's strength isn't raw power, it's mobility.

    I don't think you've understood the roles involved here. Thief is considered a mandatory class in any competitive team. Guardian is not.

    I don't like "running" or capping all day. I fight.

    Then why would you play thief?

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 10, 2020

    Thief is quick to run away and has a gross amount of stealth and teleports.
    And you want it to deal gross amounts of damage, too?

    If it did, we would see (or rather NOT see) 10 players each PvP match sitting for 15 minutes in stealth and hoping the opponent in front of them forgets (or fails) to refresh stealth.

    As for your title question, I don't think Arenanet even tries to balance the game.

  • @Wrain.6792 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:
    You're surprised that a class that is designed to be quick but fragile is not as powerful as a class that is designed to be slow but powerful? Thief's strength isn't raw power, it's mobility.

    I don't think you've understood the roles involved here. Thief is considered a mandatory class in any competitive team. Guardian is not.

    I don't like "running" or capping all day. I fight. And powerful....not even close. Did you even read my post? The dots alone on this guardian blow away my max con spec thief...its a travesty. Class should be called "coward" and then let people know what they are getting into.

    As for the rest of the comments thanks guys for the understanding, I've now realized I was correct in my assessment.

    If it's any consolation, my weaver would almost certainly beat your guardian, but would only win against your thief if you fail at kiting. Balance?

  • @Wrain.6792 said:
    So my friends and I started this game day of release many years ago. We played it for awhile, and eventually quit and went back to WoW. Came back for the expansions and again, played for awhile and quit.

    ...

    Just my thoughts/2 cents but this balancing is insane. I should have rolled a guardian years ago.

    I feel ya man, I'm in the same shoes just with my warrior... Logged to play after 2 years the other day, and after an hour of pvp I was laughing in disbelief about what the heck happened to my class, it's literally unplayable in pvp mode. So quickly made a guardian (which I planned originally, but really wanted to play my good old warrior first), and after lvl 2, from the pvp lobby with 0 practice and 0 experience with the class made 9 wins in a row topping stats many times... I don't know what to think about this, but something is seriously wrong with the game's balance, especially - in my case - with the warrior... it's like I play a low level random NPC against top bosses.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    the current situation for yours guard is ok. Be happy.
    But you can play any class and build. Want play thief ? - play. We have mmr rank system, so if you not hardcore player - you can use any biuld, and any class.
    If you hardcore pvp player - you should happy some imbalance and use specific class/build and tactic.

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • @Master Ketsu.4569 said:
    You went from playing the class with the highest skill floor to the class with the lowest, so yes at first glance it will seem to the average player that Guardian completely outclasses thief by a hilariously massive margin. But the truth is that guardian in general is just very easy to play. Nearly all guardian builds in sPvP atm amount to "Me stand on point! Me spam symbols!"

    This doesn't make guardian better than thief, just at low skill levels. Thief requires rotating and timing interrupts/evades to play well, which requires you to know most tells from all other classes. Guardian requires the ability to walk to the point, and push buttons. Me push buttons!

    But thief has a lot of things that actually make it arguably better in the current meta than guardian.

    Lol hogwash. Plz don't kid yourself. I was here with the unlimited stealth spam the #2 button power spam. It's NOT some high tier class. It's broken and if u think working 2x as hard for the same results then have at it. Games for issues and the more I play it the more I'm seeing this balancing act.

  • jpsssss.7530jpsssss.7530 Member ✭✭✭

    They can't even fix hacking...

  • Terrorhuz.4695Terrorhuz.4695 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 10, 2020

    Thief high skill cap

    Spam black powder + 2x heartseeker for stealth; from there you just backstab until someone gets downed. If you see someone ressing, shortbow 4 and you can call it a day.
    3 button combo it can't get any easier; if you still somehow kitten that up don't worry, you have a hundred thousand evades, a hundred thousand stealths, a hundred thousand teleports, a hundred thousand blinds to reset and retry until after 30 minutes your opponent somehow drops dead

    Now repeat after me: thief is high skill cap

  • I can only play Staff + double Pistols (sometimes SB) Thief: it's easy, strong and a lot of fun. Other weapons make Thief s playstyle very frustrating. D/D condi is also easy, but after being heavily nerfed, dmg is just pathetic.
    But i agree on Guardian beeing op as hell.

  • What scares me is if I go spend all this money redo this as my main .. and they pull a black desert online. They do this and it forces everyone to reroll to flavor of the month. Makes them a ton of cash but I don't have the time to run thru this ... I just want a main.

  • I know you've been playing a Thief for a while but have you been on Condi core Thief and not Daredevil D/P?

  • Ovark.2514Ovark.2514 Member ✭✭✭

    Welcome to GuardWars2! The game where guard is meta in every mode all the time.

  • I said it last year, and now I’m saying it again. Guardian is anet’s favorite child.

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Both Thief and Guardians are stronk Professions anyway in where they're good at.

    Go play something which actually got shafted, like Warrior, and suddenly both Thief and Guardian looks opgg unbalanced.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Master Ketsu.4569 said:
    You went from playing the class with the highest skill floor to the class with the lowest, so yes at first glance it will seem to the average player that Guardian completely outclasses thief by a hilariously massive margin. But the truth is that guardian in general is just very easy to play. Nearly all guardian builds in sPvP atm amount to "Me stand on point! Me spam symbols!"

    This doesn't make guardian better than thief, just at low skill levels. Thief requires rotating and timing interrupts/evades to play well, which requires you to know most tells from all other classes. Guardian requires the ability to walk to the point, and push buttons. Me push buttons!

    But thief has a lot of things that actually make it arguably better in the current meta than guardian.

    Ya... guardian always has the issue of people in ~g2 think its over powered. GW2 PvP tends to be very different than most MMOs. Most people are taught that they should try to maximize dps In the shortest time possible. That is not how sPvP works. Guardian tends to be a class that you should not do that against. Plus guardian ease of dealing damage when people stand on point.

    It does not scale though. While not the worst, it went from the class with the most available builds in spvp, around 18 month ago, to FB and rising star DH, to.... symbol spam and meme burn? I think this is a very good description of the devolution of sPvP.

  • Xca.9721Xca.9721 Member ✭✭✭

    You can try out a char without leveling/spending money on it in PvP first before committing because your level doesn´t matter in PvP.

  • anduriell.6280anduriell.6280 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Well independently of Op's post it is clear the balance is really bad, as it is shown by the diminishing population.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @anduriell.6280 said:
    Well independently of Op's post it is clear the balance is really bad, as it is shown by the diminishing population.

    population is diminishing due to the game not being enjoyable, you can have unbalanced game that is fun to play so people stick around
    gw2 problem is that its not only not very fun but ALSO unbalance, and the way the some things are unbalanced just feels like cheating you off things.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 12, 2020

    The games in a seriously bad state, the other night had the same 2 players not duo q'rs in my team 3 matches in a row, that's a very sad sign of the state of the games population lol.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 12, 2020

    I honestly think that the feb patch and a lot of players take on it was a good example of players thinking they know what they want or what's best but do not, the games never been in a worst place than post feb patch and the plummeting population is a testament to that. Condi and sustainability being to high and in some cases damage to low is killing this games pvp. Burst classes need to be actually bursty, mid line classes midline and sustain classes not bursting as they are, these devs royally messed this games pvp up, its a complete disaster balance wise.

  • voltaicbore.8012voltaicbore.8012 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 12, 2020

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    The games in a seriously bad state, the other night had the same 2 players not duo q'rs in my team 3 matches in a row, that's a very sad sign of the state of the games population lol.

    That's even happening in unranked for me, which is a bit concerning.

    Adding my 2 cents to OP's sentiment: I don't think thief is nearly as bad as you make it sound, but guardian is pretty strong atm. You said it yourself - you like fights. No surprise that guardian is more your speed, whereas to excel in spvp on thief it's more about knowing how maps work and how to best disrupt the enemy team (whether that be rapid +1s or decaps).

    But yeah, the current 'balance' doesn't feel good at all.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 12, 2020

    Thiefs not bad but it's not good either. The balance players that dislike thief want is not only bad for thief but also the game. Thief should have thee highest quick burst in the game given its archetype and design. Rogue and rogue likes are designed to be highly mobile and strike quick and hard using tactic that that stay true to the archetype whether it pisses players off or not, and if a rogue type is pissing players off it's doing its job. They should be squishy yet slippery and punish players hard if they get their burst off but in today's current game state it can take to long to even +1 for a teammate due to the insane sustain classes have either through healing or through defensive skills. Yes a thief should be able to significantly burst a tank if it gets its burst of, not one shot it of course but its burst should be significant enough to make quick work of ANY class in a +1, that's the reward for a rogue choosing their fights wisely and punishment for opponent being in a +1 but not in gw2 right now as a great holo,ranger,guard,rev and scourge can stall the fight far longer in a +1 than should be possible. On top classes that can survive in fights for longer periods are bursting as mush as the burst classes. There's literally no identity throughout the classes and all the roles are completely messed up and half backed into all classes but in away that is completely out of balance between each other. Too many classes are great at to many things and others gbage at too many things while being great at a few and some class are great at things ud think would be the weakness of such a archetype or design of a class. Honestly the pvp is completely lost in gw2 unless the devs do a complete overhaul and actually put real work into it, not some lazy blanket nerf to every class with no regards to how it actually effects each class individually. The we can only change numbers on balance is so laughable and unprofessional from a dev omg, sure design team will get to fixing things properly......6 yrs down the rd 3 traits may get designed throughout those yrs. I'm surprised ncsoft is ok with how things have been.

  • Supreme.3164Supreme.3164 Member ✭✭✭

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    Thiefs not bad but it's not good either. The balance players that dislike thief want is not only bad for thief but also the game. Thief should have thee highest quick burst in the game given its archetype and design. Rogue and rogue likes are designed to be highly mobile and strike quick and hard using tactic that that stay true to the archetype whether it pisses players off or not, and if a rogue type is pissing players off it's doing its job. They should be squishy yet slippery and punish players hard if they get their burst off but in today's current game state it can take to long to even +1 for a teammate due to the insane sustain classes have either through healing or through defensive skills. Yes a thief should be able to significantly burst a tank if it gets its burst of, not one shot it of course but its burst should be significant enough to make quick work of ANY class in a +1, that's the reward for a rogue choosing their fights wisely and punishment for opponent being in a +1 but not in gw2 right now as a great holo,ranger,guard,rev and scourge can stall the fight far longer in a +1 than should be possible. On top classes that can survive in fights for longer periods are bursting as mush as the burst classes. There's literally no identity throughout the classes and all the roles are completely messed up and half backed into all classes but in away that is completely out of balance between each other. Too many classes are great at to many things and others gbage at too many things while being great at a few and some class are great at things ud think would be the weakness of such a archetype or design of a class. Honestly the pvp is completely lost in gw2 unless the devs do a complete overhaul and actually put real work into it, not some lazy blanket nerf to every class with no regards to how it actually effects each class individually. The we can only change numbers on balance is so laughable and unprofessional from a dev omg, sure design team will get to fixing things properly......6 yrs down the rd 3 traits may get designed throughout those yrs. I'm surprised ncsoft is ok with how things have been.

    If you say that thieves should be "squishy" then you're asking for far less access to stealth.....I can't agree on an ideology that a class should "kitten off others" that's not a legitimate balance request, if that would be the case then we should reintroduce all the damage taken away from other burst specs like Fa ele, sic'em ranger, core guardian hammer, shiro s/s , oneshot mesmer and so on and so on.

    For huge reward there should be huge risk and the latter should not occur only when "you do the mistake", that's a low risk instance...hardly a high risk one; right now it's possible to "punish" thieves only if you have access to things like : reveal - huge instant burst -teleports and high reflex rate...that's a lot to ask.

    It's not really possible to talk about balance with players on the forum without hitting that Bias wall

  • @Supreme.3164 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    Thiefs not bad but it's not good either. The balance players that dislike thief want is not only bad for thief but also the game. Thief should have thee highest quick burst in the game given its archetype and design. Rogue and rogue likes are designed to be highly mobile and strike quick and hard using tactic that that stay true to the archetype whether it pisses players off or not, and if a rogue type is pissing players off it's doing its job. They should be squishy yet slippery and punish players hard if they get their burst off but in today's current game state it can take to long to even +1 for a teammate due to the insane sustain classes have either through healing or through defensive skills. Yes a thief should be able to significantly burst a tank if it gets its burst of, not one shot it of course but its burst should be significant enough to make quick work of ANY class in a +1, that's the reward for a rogue choosing their fights wisely and punishment for opponent being in a +1 but not in gw2 right now as a great holo,ranger,guard,rev and scourge can stall the fight far longer in a +1 than should be possible. On top classes that can survive in fights for longer periods are bursting as mush as the burst classes. There's literally no identity throughout the classes and all the roles are completely messed up and half backed into all classes but in away that is completely out of balance between each other. Too many classes are great at to many things and others gbage at too many things while being great at a few and some class are great at things ud think would be the weakness of such a archetype or design of a class. Honestly the pvp is completely lost in gw2 unless the devs do a complete overhaul and actually put real work into it, not some lazy blanket nerf to every class with no regards to how it actually effects each class individually. The we can only change numbers on balance is so laughable and unprofessional from a dev omg, sure design team will get to fixing things properly......6 yrs down the rd 3 traits may get designed throughout those yrs. I'm surprised ncsoft is ok with how things have been.

    If you say that thieves should be "squishy" then you're asking for far less access to stealth.....I can't agree on an ideology that a class should "kitten off others" that's not a legitimate balance request, if that would be the case then we should reintroduce all the damage taken away from other burst specs like Fa ele, sic'em ranger, core guardian hammer, shiro s/s , oneshot mesmer and so on and so on.

    For huge reward there should be huge risk and the latter should not occur only when "you do the mistake", that's a low risk instance...hardly a high risk one; right now it's possible to "punish" thieves only if you have access to things like : reveal - huge instant burst -teleports and high reflex rate...that's a lot to ask.

    It's not really possible to talk about balance with players on the forum without hitting that Bias wall

    Unfortunately the risk vs reward of almost all classes is a joke. Think about how much damage most high sustain classes can do, classes that can stay in a fight, stall 2 players for a minute or so can match ur out burst classes that have to use disengagement if a fight last more than 10 secs. Thief needs some defensive abilities if their burst doesn't connect, way it is now even if it does the burst isn't very threatening to most classes except other glass classes or builds. People complain about thieves running away using stealth and tele's but why are they running away? I do agree access to stealth is to high but I also believe the reward for getting thief's burst off is too low. Capping stealth at 6 sec that's non stackable that can be replenished would probably help balance stealth out. Thief given its hp and armor still needs effective disengagement tools so it's not a free bag after its burst attempts. Of every mmo I've played, bdo,eso,wow,archeage, rift etc gw2 has thee weakest bursting rogue like, and yeah all those other rogues have great mobility and stealth etc on top of their squishy nature.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Supreme.3164 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    Thiefs not bad but it's not good either. The balance players that dislike thief want is not only bad for thief but also the game. Thief should have thee highest quick burst in the game given its archetype and design. Rogue and rogue likes are designed to be highly mobile and strike quick and hard using tactic that that stay true to the archetype whether it pisses players off or not, and if a rogue type is pissing players off it's doing its job. They should be squishy yet slippery and punish players hard if they get their burst off but in today's current game state it can take to long to even +1 for a teammate due to the insane sustain classes have either through healing or through defensive skills. Yes a thief should be able to significantly burst a tank if it gets its burst of, not one shot it of course but its burst should be significant enough to make quick work of ANY class in a +1, that's the reward for a rogue choosing their fights wisely and punishment for opponent being in a +1 but not in gw2 right now as a great holo,ranger,guard,rev and scourge can stall the fight far longer in a +1 than should be possible. On top classes that can survive in fights for longer periods are bursting as mush as the burst classes. There's literally no identity throughout the classes and all the roles are completely messed up and half backed into all classes but in away that is completely out of balance between each other. Too many classes are great at to many things and others gbage at too many things while being great at a few and some class are great at things ud think would be the weakness of such a archetype or design of a class. Honestly the pvp is completely lost in gw2 unless the devs do a complete overhaul and actually put real work into it, not some lazy blanket nerf to every class with no regards to how it actually effects each class individually. The we can only change numbers on balance is so laughable and unprofessional from a dev omg, sure design team will get to fixing things properly......6 yrs down the rd 3 traits may get designed throughout those yrs. I'm surprised ncsoft is ok with how things have been.

    If you say that thieves should be "squishy" then you're asking for far less access to stealth.....I can't agree on an ideology that a class should "kitten off others" that's not a legitimate balance request, if that would be the case then we should reintroduce all the damage taken away from other burst specs like Fa ele, sic'em ranger, core guardian hammer, shiro s/s , oneshot mesmer and so on and so on.

    No? Stealth is useless for defense. If anything its asking for shortbow 5 to be removed, but thats the crux anyway, isnt it?

    For huge reward there should be huge risk and the latter should not occur only when "you do the mistake", that's a low risk instance...hardly a high risk one; right now it's possible to "punish" thieves only if you have access to things like : reveal - huge instant burst -teleports and high reflex rate...that's a lot to ask.

    If a thief is smart and doesnt stealth in-combat, none of those help you punish him. If he is stupid and does stealth in combat, you need none of those (reveals are even outright a trap).

  • Highlie.7641Highlie.7641 Member ✭✭✭

    They canceled sesame street, kids can't count to 3 because of it. thus stealth is impossible to counter....