The Zoo Meta needs to end and never return. — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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The Zoo Meta needs to end and never return.

Ovark.2514Ovark.2514 Member ✭✭✭

Title. Players just don't even need to try these days. Just stick some minions on your build and plat here they come.

Comments

  • I admit that this build is verry funny to Play....
    Enjoy it as long as you can!

  • It's the Scourge barriers.

    Minions should probably receive a significantly reduced amount of barrier from what players would receive.

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Questioning if people actually know what the term meta is and how it's supposed to be used....

  • Ovark.2514Ovark.2514 Member ✭✭✭

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:
    Questioning if people actually know what the term meta is and how it's supposed to be used....

    Please, enlighten me.

  • @Ovark.2514 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:
    Questioning if people actually know what the term meta is and how it's supposed to be used....

    Please, enlighten me.

    Hold on let me go and find the definition on websters online dictionary since i don't actually know how to use it either heh.

  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 12, 2020

    Can someone enlighten me? Is scourge minion master now dominating US or what?

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @KrHome.1920 said:
    Can someone enlighten me? Is scourge minion master now dominating US or what?

    I'm not sure how minion scourge plays out well, since the most effective tactics available for Reaper or Core necro builds work great against it and even counter it by getting Spectral armor, Spectral grasp or both it basically gives them permanent full shroud plus even if you don't get them you have multiple AI to hit to gain shroud.

  • Stallic.2397Stallic.2397 Member ✭✭✭

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @KrHome.1920 said:
    Can someone enlighten me? Is scourge minion master now dominating US or what?

    I'm not sure how minion scourge plays out well, since the most effective tactics available for Reaper or Core necro builds work great against it and even counter it by getting Spectral armor, Spectral grasp or both it basically gives them permanent full shroud plus even if you don't get them you have multiple AI to hit to gain shroud.

    Isn't it the new vallun scourge build on YouTube? Idk, I don't play Necro. But I've heard and seen of this build

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    If you want to kill that build, have a lot of CC to keep the Necro still.

    Willing to help with anything Revenant related.

  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 12, 2020

    @Stallic.2397 said:
    Isn't it the new vallun scourge build on YouTube? Idk, I don't play Necro. But I've heard and seen of this build

    Thx that information helped. I found it. Mender amulet, melandru rune, BM+DM, dagger+warhorn, axe+focus and a skillbar full of minions.

    A troll build like bunker core necro before the signets have been nerfed. The weaknesses are the same: stunlock and burst. Should even be easier to deal with as barrier is easier to kite than core shroud.

  • @Tazer.2157 said:
    Balance should not come in the way of defining classes. A necromancer with minions is class defining. Nerfing this type of gameplay would destroy its identity.

    Can we vote to have you on the balance team? This is how it should be, for everything.

    Instead of "nerf this, nerf that. Remove this, remove that" they should allow the playstyle to continue existing while buffing everything else to be on par and equally fun to play.
    Save the nerfs for the most gamebreaking and extreme examples.

    Ranked DuoQ 😡👉🚪
    Patch-culture is awful
    Nerfs should be reserved for extreme cases and only done in creative ways that make the game more interesting to play and watch.

  • Shiyo.3578Shiyo.3578 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 13, 2020

    Minions/pets should do 0 damage, be immune to damage, be untargettable and function like one wolf pack where they add damage to your next attack after using their utility skill(give it a 2-3 second cooldown or something)

  • Ovark.2514Ovark.2514 Member ✭✭✭

    @Tazer.2157 said:

    Balance should not come in the way of defining classes. A necromancer with minions is class defining. Nerfing this type of gameplay would destroy its identity.

    Wow. If this is what people think necro's 'defining feature' is then something is more wrong than I thought. Imagine if every necro ran max minions all the time in PvP. The lag would be insane, the visual noise would be insane, getting killed by a mindless minion feels awful especially considering how passive the gameplay is. People who would straight-up stop playing. I find that a good rule of thumb when thinking about what is and isn't good design is: "How fun would the game be if everyone of ___ class ALWAYS played ___ build." you quickly find that adds should really be avoided at all costs.

  • Tazer.2157Tazer.2157 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 13, 2020

    @Ovark.2514 said:

    @Tazer.2157 said:

    Balance should not come in the way of defining classes. A necromancer with minions is class defining. Nerfing this type of gameplay would destroy its identity.

    Wow. If this is what people think necro's 'defining feature' is then something is more wrong than I thought. Imagine if every necro ran max minions all the time in PvP. The lag would be insane, the visual noise would be insane, getting killed by a mindless minion feels awful especially considering how passive the gameplay is. People who would straight-up stop playing. I find that a good rule of thumb when thinking about what is and isn't good design is: "How fun would the game be if everyone of ___ class ALWAYS played ___ build." you quickly find that adds should really be avoided at all costs.

    Except that the meta would then shift accordingly. If more necros went minion builds, the other classes would have to adjust their builds. We might see power shiro taken with its single target blink and dmg. I think that this is what is interesting. Watching people play different builds and then having to adjust your build accordingly. The lag and visual noise you talk about can be fixed. What cannot be fixed is if the minions were made useless. In which case you have deleted a playstyle of a class.

    Going by your rule of thumb, if you nerf one playstyle, won't the other playstyle be more dominant and wouldn't more people play a single type of build? Right now every necromancer is not a minion necromancer and I think that is why people find them tough to counter since the build you normally play with doesn't counter the minionmancer. Getting killed by a minion feels just as bad as getting killed by condi stacks or aoe.

    If you want "active gameplay", then conditions should be deleted, damage should be done only on hit (power), and there should be no AOE/pets/clones/turrets/invisiblity. Every class should then have the same armor type. The game would then become something else.

    PvP should be looked at as a 5v5 game and not a 1v1 game. Classes are supposed to compliment each other. RIght now, PvP in GW2 does very little to promote this. There is no pick and ban system like Dota 2 has, and people aren't encouraged to play other classes which makes them favor one type of class which results in nerf this, buff that threads. I think the off season needs to have achievements where people are made to play different classes with builds already defined for them. This would be a good starting step and not overwhelm players when picking a new class. Also a pick and ban system before a match begins would greatly enhance communication between players and will improve the build diversity in game.

    Dota 2 does this really well. For new players, the amount of heroes they get to play with is limited and players are made to choose from a limited roster of heroes. GW2 can do something similar off-season where players are presented with 10-15 classes (each with a predefined build) and are made to pick/ban between them. That would be seriously fun and I bet people would experiment with different classes more often.

  • Ovark.2514Ovark.2514 Member ✭✭✭

    @Tazer.2157 said:

    @Ovark.2514 said:

    @Tazer.2157 said:

    Balance should not come in the way of defining classes. A necromancer with minions is class defining. Nerfing this type of gameplay would destroy its identity.

    Wow. If this is what people think necro's 'defining feature' is then something is more wrong than I thought. Imagine if every necro ran max minions all the time in PvP. The lag would be insane, the visual noise would be insane, getting killed by a mindless minion feels awful especially considering how passive the gameplay is. People who would straight-up stop playing. I find that a good rule of thumb when thinking about what is and isn't good design is: "How fun would the game be if everyone of ___ class ALWAYS played ___ build." you quickly find that adds should really be avoided at all costs.

    Except that the meta would then shift accordingly. If more necros went minion builds, the other classes would have to adjust their builds. We might see power shiro taken with its single target blink and dmg. I think that this is what is interesting. Watching people play different builds and then having to adjust your build accordingly. The lag and visual noise you talk about can be fixed. What cannot be fixed is if the minions were made useless. In which case you have deleted a playstyle of a class.

    Going by your rule of thumb, if you nerf one playstyle, won't the other playstyle be more dominant and wouldn't more people play a single type of build? Right now every necromancer is not a minion necromancer and I think that is why people find them tough to counter since the build you normally play with doesn't counter the minionmancer. Getting killed by a minion feels just as bad as getting killed by condi stacks or aoe.

    If you want "active gameplay", then conditions should be deleted, damage should be done only on hit (power), and there should be no AOE/pets/clones/turrets/invisiblity. Every class should then have the same armor type. The game would then become something else.

    PvP should be looked at as a 5v5 game and not a 1v1 game. Classes are supposed to compliment each other. RIght now, PvP in GW2 does very little to promote this. There is no pick and ban system like Dota 2 has, and people aren't encouraged to play other classes which makes them favor one type of class which results in nerf this, buff that threads. I think the off season needs to have achievements where people are made to play different classes with builds already defined for them. This would be a good starting step and not overwhelm players when picking a new class. Also a pick and ban system before a match begins would greatly enhance communication between players and will improve the build diversity in game.

    Dota 2 does this really well. For new players, the amount of heroes they get to play with is limited and players are made to choose from a limited roster of heroes. GW2 can do something similar off-season where players are presented with 10-15 classes (each with a predefined build) and are made to pick/ban between them. That would be seriously fun and I bet people would experiment with different classes more often.

    The meta might shift accordingly, but what about us who don't play the meta? So, to counter a MM build you need to use blink, one of the most cheesy playstyles in game. You'd think if the lag+visual noise could be fix it would have been within these past 8 years. . .

    I think the build banning thing is interesting and I would be up for trying it. Def would be nice to see a condi . . . anything on the other team and say NO.

  • Oh dear....Zoo necro is so much fun to play and collect all of those salty tears in s3-g1 max. Anyone with minimum knowledge of the game will have zero problems dealing with zoo scourge. It's a super MEME build.

  • Not sure the problem here. In a team fight they cant do anything except soak up damage. In a 1v1 you can just leave them at home and then rotate back once they leave. They have no precence when kiting a 2v1. Its a meme build if you ask me

  • You seem to have confused "meta" with "meme." Summoner/minion builds have always been a joke in mmo pvp. Anyone gold or over will eat them for lunch.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shao.7236 said:
    If you want to kill that build, have a lot of CC to keep the Necro still.

    Lmao. Not cuz it is wrong, but when the best way to kill most builds is chain CC, something is very wrong.

  • Kuma.1503Kuma.1503 Member ✭✭✭

    If you really hate this build, minion mancer scourge falls over to a half decent reaper. Easy cleave in shroud. Free life force outside of shroud.

  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 14, 2020

    @otto.5684 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    If you want to kill that build, have a lot of CC to keep the Necro still.

    Lmao. Not cuz it is wrong, but when the best way to kill most builds is chain CC, something is very wrong.

    There is nothing less mobile than a minion master in this game. If you can aoe the minions then you don't even need to cc the scourge - which by the way would be a walk in the park because that build has 0 (zero!) stunbreaks. Even the vallun video shows how poor this build performs. He is having a hard time against a hacking keyboard turner skill level revenant and dies to every 2v1 focus within a few seconds.

  • Shiyo.3578Shiyo.3578 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Brimstone Jack.3462 said:
    You seem to have confused "meta" with "meme." Summoner/minion builds have always been a joke in mmo pvp. Anyone gold or over will eat them for lunch.

    It's actually strong.

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @otto.5684 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    If you want to kill that build, have a lot of CC to keep the Necro still.

    Lmao. Not cuz it is wrong, but when the best way to kill most builds is chain CC, something is very wrong.

    Well when there's 7 things cleaving on you, it's best keeping it all in check. That's what Crowd Control means afterall.

    Willing to help with anything Revenant related.

  • @Shiyo.3578 said:

    @Brimstone Jack.3462 said:
    You seem to have confused "meta" with "meme." Summoner/minion builds have always been a joke in mmo pvp. Anyone gold or over will eat them for lunch.

    It's actually strong.

    Yes indeed it's very strong in silver/g1.. That's it.

  • @ollbirtan.2915 said:

    Yes indeed it's very strong in silver/g1.. That's it.

    If that were true I wouldn't be seeing it excessively in the plat 2+ streamers I watch.

  • Shiyo.3578Shiyo.3578 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 14, 2020

    @ollbirtan.2915 said:

    @Shiyo.3578 said:

    @Brimstone Jack.3462 said:
    You seem to have confused "meta" with "meme." Summoner/minion builds have always been a joke in mmo pvp. Anyone gold or over will eat them for lunch.

    It's actually strong.

    Yes indeed it's very strong in silver/g1.. That's it.

    Plat1 gameplay dude.
    Death magic trait line is busted beyond belief, necro life force generation is too high, and minions do too many condis + CC.

  • @Ovark.2514 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:
    Questioning if people actually know what the term meta is and how it's supposed to be used....

    Please, enlighten me.

    Well it means in this context the builds which the majority agree are good but honestly we don't have much meta any more in all gamemodes GW 2 has now multiply sources for builds now instead just meta batttle. I also still play heal FB in pvp even when it dropped completely out of meta which still works up to gold 3 sure it has a lot of changes to it but still works.

    About the minions master well the problem with it is when you have 2 of them and a mesmer in the enemy team it is a zoo through which you focus any more.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 14, 2020

    @Lord of the Fire.6870 said:

    @Ovark.2514 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:
    Questioning if people actually know what the term meta is and how it's supposed to be used....

    Please, enlighten me.

    Well it means in this context the builds which the majority agree are good but honestly we don't have much meta any more in all gamemodes GW 2 has now multiply sources for builds now instead just meta batttle. I also still play heal FB in pvp even when it dropped completely out of meta which still works up to gold 3 sure it has a lot of changes to it but still works.

    About the minions master well the problem with it is when you have 2 of them and a mesmer in the enemy team it is a zoo through which you focus any more.

    It's more accurate to:
    1- Definition: Meta stand for Most Effective Tactic Available.
    2- Narrow context: A meta build for a profession is it's most effective build, the one that outshine other possible build for what you want to do.
    3- Wide context: A meta build in group content is a build that benefit the most to and from the other professions, leading to peak effectiveness of the profession within the content targeted.

    Now:
    1- Is scourge minion master the necromancer's most effective build within sPvP? Arguable.
    2- Does the scourge minion master contribute efficiently in sPvP? Arguable as well.

    The scourge minion master is yet another necromancer "tanky" build that benefit a lot from the overall low damage in sPvP because health point as a defensive mean actually work in this context. It's neither good or bad, it's just annoying to deal with.

  • They have literally no mobility or stunbreaks. A decent burst of AOE leaves them defenseless.