How to fix condi issues.

These will be simplified suggestions... The changes will be great for wvw, and the rest of the game too.

AMA quotes to start...

“We’re looking at the condition damage issues that are inherent to the scaling number of players in WvW. Major mode-centric changes are a major part of balance patches and we’ll be iterating through several potential changes specifically for WvW. I wouldn’t expect huge mode-specific balance changes before the first post-PoF balance patch”

“Power is intended to be more spike damage-centric. Condi more ramping sustained damage. Currently there are some issues with how quickly condition damage can be spiked up, negating the benefits of power damage. If I presented you with a power skill that dealt 1,000 damage instantaneously and a condition one that dealt 1,000 damage over 4 seconds there wouldn’t be a question about what build to choose; you’d go with the instant option every time. Not counting other effects, condition skills must inflict more damage over their duration in order to make power vs. condi into a real choice.”

The Suggestions...

1. A stat, that players can build for with gear, that mitigates condi damage... Toughness would be my personal preference.

2. Remove condition damage from auto-attacks.

3. Weapon attacks designed for condition damage are changed to DoT (damage over time) skills using 1 particular condition damage per tick. Examples using the AMA quotes for guidance... A power weapon skill is assigned to hit for 1,000 raw damage. A new condi DoT skill is assigned to hit for 1,200 condition damage, and hits an opponent for 300 condition DoT damage over 4 seconds.

Ranger Shortbow damage type examples using the above suggestion...

~Crossfire- X power damage. No bleeds.~Poison Volley- X poison DoT over X seconds.~Quick Shot- X bleed DoT over X seconds.~Crippling Shot- X bleed DoT over X seconds.~Concussion Shot- X power damage.

*You keep in place all the other secondary “stuff” going on with the skills. So Quick Shot still provides evade and swiftness... Crippling Shot still provides cripple and immobilize...

4. Assign each individual weapon skill and slot skill to use only 1 type of DoT damaging condition. You still keep secondary movement impairing and hard conditions on skills...

Look at the difference between these skills and you’ll see what I mean.

Way crazy and over-the-top condi skill, and highlights the overarching condi issues this game faces...

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_Spite

Well designed condi skill, and what I’m talking about with the above with assigning 1 DoT condi to all skills.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blood_Is_Power

5. Cleansing skills become power and condi DoT damage mitigation skills, but they still remove secondary soft (cripple, chill, ...) and hard (daze, knock down... ) condition effects. These redesigned cleanses do not remove condi DoT damage...

6. Skills that produce hard condition effects remain the same.

7. All stats and equipment remain and function the same way, except expertise...Either remove expertise so the devs can have duration control on skills for balance, or expertise can function like precision does, but only for condi DoT damage.

lol its a lot simpler then that... just implement something that was already there. condi stack caps. there are already so many stats, I don't think we need another one (that to me looks redundant).

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:lol its a lot simpler then that... just implement something that was already there. condi stack caps. there are already so many stats, I don't think we need another one (that to me looks redundant).

Caps might seem a sensible change at first glance, but then that completely negates condi damage output from players once the cap is reached. Caps might be fine for very small scale stuff, like in spvp, but that screws over wvw zerg play.

Overall, I see caps as a bandaid placed over a much larger wound... Won’t help as a long term fix, and there would be larger issues going forward because you are completely negating skill effects when thresholds are met. That’s not the sensible or right thing to do.

i dont see whats the problem with condi. in the good ole days of pirateship, you went splat even before you could "cleanse"

@Swagger.1459 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:lol its a lot simpler then that... just implement something that was already there. condi stack caps. there are already so many stats, I don't think we need another one (that to me looks redundant).

none of your suggestions make sense to me. introducing a new stat would be a long and buggy process, and is redundant anyway since vitality and cleanses exist. if anything, buff those two first before introducing a completely new stat. throwing in a new stat is what you do in alpha... not however many years into the game. removing condi damage from auto attacks would destroy condi builds in all game modes. I wont argue the point if you cant grasp it. removing power damage from condi based attacks would destroy hybrid builds, reduce the effectiveness of on hit sigils / traits... while doing nothing to address the primary concern, condis.

putting back the cap is the only thing that makes sense. caps exist for a reason. its why they continually nerfed meteor shower into the ground, and all other aoes. condis need a cap, especially for zerg vs zerg where you can die in 2 sec from a condi bomb/epi, or even small scale/roaming some builds can build up some insane stacks (looking at you confusion Mesmer). if caps are a band aid fix then removing them revealed the festering wound beneath. again, caps exist for a reason. maybe negating skill effects when the thresholds are met is the right thing to do when those thresholds are easily met and do power burst type damage PER TIC.

easy bring back the GW1 skill system.... and stop this aoe cleave spam ars... to catter the pve'rs make players actually need to know what and who they have to atack...CHange some conditions to HEXESbut alot of players would cry..... since they would need to put effort

To be honest, to cut down condi to an acceptable level, just turn back time on conditions in PvP and WvW all the way back to 2015.

Remove stacks from burning and poisonCap condi stacks at 25

Don't even need to do anything else, that will be enough to make WvW playable with all the extra cleanses and heals available to us (and also resistance is a thing now).

The big problem in making condi obsolete, is that Rite of the Great Dwarf is a thing. That needs to get removed or reworked if we want to get good old fashioned brawls happening again.

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:lol its a lot simpler then that... just implement something that was already there. condi stack caps. there are already so many stats, I don't think we need another one (that to me looks redundant).

OR easier yet, reduce Condition damage by at least 25-30% When you can be taking insane damage form Conditions against a SINGLE person, reducing the stacks wont do that much. Cut it at the core and flat out reduce the damage conditions deal.

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:lol its a lot simpler then that... just implement something that was already there. condi stack caps. there are already so many stats, I don't think we need another one (that to me looks redundant).

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:lol its a lot simpler then that... just implement something that was already there. condi stack caps. there are already so many stats, I don't think we need another one (that to me looks redundant).

Dev quote...

“condition skills must inflict more damage over their duration in order to make power vs. condi into a real choice.”

And my proposal accomplishes that.

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:lol its a lot simpler then that... just implement something that was already there. condi stack caps. there are already so many stats, I don't think we need another one (that to me looks redundant).

You’re not even bothering to think anything through. I suggest rereading my entire proposal and see how it all intertwines.

So, with regard to the condi cap you are preferring... Are you similarly willing to accept a cap on incoming power damage too, when a player meets a threshold? ... Think about that for a while.

Easy fix: Condition damage now benefits from Precision and Ferocity. new stat sets with Condi/Prec/Fero (condi zerkers in other words), Condi/Pre/Fero/Exp (Pure Condi Vipers). All base condition damage and scaling cut across the board, up to 50% ish. Going "Full Zerk" results in more condition damage, at the cost of durability.

AKA Random Condi does X (like a variable) damage. Nerf to .60X damage. With no ferocity, your crits can perform just under the original condition damage (1.5 * .60 = .9). With ferocity, you can reach new damage heights (232% multiplier on full zerker stats as an example, results in 1.39 times the original condition damage output on crit).

Downside is raid balance goes even further towards Condition, bosses need to cleanse or have tiny vulnerability periods that power gets rewarded with.

OP, you could have just said "remove conditions from the game", since that appears to be what you actually want.

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:lol its a lot simpler then that... just implement something that was already there. condi stack caps. there are already so many stats, I don't think we need another one (that to me looks redundant).Those were removed for a reason. The only way bringing them back would be acceptable is if they also made power builds actively intefere with each other the same way condition builds did back then, but somehow I don't think you want that.

@Dawdler.8521 said:And if you reduce the damage then that person will still be viable while you killed all other condi specs, those relying on a low number of fairly easily cleansed sources (let me think... guard, mesmer, thief, warrior, ele, rev and ranger). You're not cutting it at the core, you're just streamlining condi down to a single class... ie the necro.Yeah, this. People get angry about necromancers (and the odd thief or mesmer) and just decide they want condition damage removed from the game across the board.

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:OR easier yet, reduce Condition damage by at least 25-30% When you can be taking insane damage form Conditions against a SINGLE person, reducing the stacks wont do that much. Cut it at the core and flat out reduce the damage conditions deal.reducing damage would force people to go all in on condi damage to achieve the same results pre nerf. that would destroy hybrid builds and further push builds into extremes. the best thing about caps is that it works in all situations, especially in zerg vs zerg, which is the main reason to have caps and this discussion.@Swagger.1459 said:You’re not even bothering to think anything through. I suggest rereading my entire proposal and see how it all intertwines.

So, with regard to the condi cap you are preferring... Are you similarly willing to accept a cap on incoming power damage too, when a player meets a threshold? ... Think about that for a while.

lol I love it when people do this; they accuse you of the very thing theyre doing, and continue on their merry way to enlightenment. look man I really am trying here. you are suggesting redundancies that don't do anything to address the core problem: getting bombed with 30+ stacks of every condi in a zerg fight (or even small team) and dieing in 2 seconds. some of your suggestions are too extreme, like removing condis from auto attacks. that would destroy condi builds. aa's on some builds are what help make them viable. would you have this change effect pve and pvp too (mainly pve)? good luck with that lol. perhaps not? since you have a thing for dev quotes, I remember them saying they didn't want any skill splits between game modes... then it became apparent that they were needed. your skill splits would be way too extreme, and I'm all for em. except for ridiculous skills that should be nerfed, the power skills/bombs are easier to dodge (even in zerg fights) since they have more obvious tells (and power bombs in zerg fights are easier to predict). the condi bombs come out of nowhere, thus mitigating them becomes harder. that's the power damage cap, dodging. you cant dodge condi bombs if you cant predict when/where they'll hit.#s 4 and 7 I can get behind.

@Hyper Cutter.9376 said:Those were removed for a reason. The only way bringing them back would be acceptable is if they also made power builds actively intefere with each other the same way condition builds did back then, but somehow I don't think you want that.what are you talking about lol? I know that condi damage over writ each other back in the day, but that only really mattered in pve.

@"Stand The Wall.6987" said:lol its a lot simpler then that... just implement something that was already there. condi stack caps. there are already so many stats, I don't think we need another one (that to me looks redundant).

Should there be a direct damage cap as well? That's what you're saying essentially. If you get hit by 10 players using conditions, it should hurt bad... and you should die. The same way if you get hit by 10 players using power builds.

Cleanses mitigate 100% of remaining condi damage. This is on top of normal damage mitigation for initial skill hits like dodge, block, and evade. Then there is resistance boon which also mitigates 100% of ticking condi damage for the duration of the boon. So condi dmg has more counters than physical dmg.

What I'm saying is it's a complex system and one or two "simple" changes is not likely to work.

@juno.1840 said:Should there be a direct damage cap as well? That's what you're saying essentially. If you get hit by 10 players using conditions, it should hurt bad... and you should die. The same way if you get hit by 10 players using power builds.

Cleanses mitigate 100% of remaining condi damage. This is on top of normal damage mitigation for initial skill hits like dodge, block, and evade. Then there is resistance boon which also mitigates 100% of ticking condi damage for the duration of the boon. So condi dmg has more counters than physical dmg.

What I'm saying is it's a complex system and one or two "simple" changes is not likely to work.

its a good argument but my post that you quoted didn't mention the context of zerg fights. yes, most of what you said applies to zerg fights as well, exept: power bombs are much easier to predict/dodge, condis are reapplied much faster then power bombs and cleanses, mitigating power damage is easier because of dodging and plenty of buffs (protection), resistance is exclusive to rev, can be (and is) stripped more easily (not to mention if your revs die your team will as well most likely). so in all likelihood condi damage does not have more counters then physical damage in zerg fights. that's where caps will have the most effect and this is why caps should be put back in place. however, if it turns out that after caps were put into place condi starts under performing, then raise the caps little by little. what you don't do is just remove them completely and hope for the best.

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@juno.1840 said:Should there be a direct damage cap as well? That's what you're saying essentially. If you get hit by 10 players using conditions, it should hurt bad... and you should die. The same way if you get hit by 10 players using power builds.

Cleanses mitigate 100% of remaining condi damage. This is on top of normal damage mitigation for initial skill hits like dodge, block, and evade. Then there is resistance boon which also mitigates 100% of ticking condi damage for the duration of the boon. So condi dmg has more counters than physical dmg.

What I'm saying is it's a complex system and one or two "simple" changes is not likely to work.

I’ll respond to your other comments later...

Yet this thread is addressing a very clear dev response about condis and zerg, and keeping condi play as a viable choice... Bolded.

“We’re looking at the condition damage issues that are inherent to the scaling number of players in WvW. Major mode-centric changes are a major part of balance patches and we’ll be iterating through several potential changes specifically for WvW. I wouldn’t expect huge mode-specific balance changes before the first post-PoF balance patch”

“Power is intended to be more spike damage-centric. Condi more ramping sustained damage. Currently there are some issues with how quickly condition damage can be spiked up, negating the benefits of power damage. If I presented you with a power skill that dealt 1,000 damage instantaneously and a condition one that dealt 1,000 damage over 4 seconds there wouldn’t be a question about what build to choose; you’d go with the instant option every time. Not counting other effects, condition skills must inflict more damage over their duration in order to make power vs. condi into a real choice.”

...You clearly don’t understand that caps don’t work and why they don’t work... Was already explained to you, and I provided clear dev responses to frame the suggestions... Caps are not the super simple magic answer to address condi issues. Think beyond 1 step.

Edit- And to clarify so you clearly understand... Putting a cap on condi output from players does not make playing condi a “real choice”. When a cap threshold is met on targets then all outgoing condi skills are completely nullified... The devs are not going to nullify skills or cap damage output... Hence why Juno and I brought up the power cap comparison... Is this understandable?

Suddenly all the people who make sense start coming out. Must be a timezone thing.

The only thing we need is a way to itemize against condi damage like we can do with power. Just make toughness affect both condis and direct damage.

So, like in Power builds, condi can still do a lot of damage, but if you want to itemize against it you can. And it would also be super easy to put ingame since ANet wouldn't even need to change skills and gear combinations, just some number tweaking.

@"Hyper Cutter.9376" said:OP, you could have just said "remove conditions from the game", since that appears to be what you actually want.

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:lol its a lot simpler then that... just implement something that was already there. condi stack caps. there are already so many stats, I don't think we need another one (that to me looks redundant).Those were removed for a reason. The only way bringing them back would be acceptable is if they also made power builds actively intefere with each other the same way condition builds did back then, but somehow I don't think you want that.

@Dawdler.8521 said:And if you reduce the damage then

that person

will still be viable while you killed all other condi specs, those relying on a low number of fairly easily cleansed sources (let me think... guard, mesmer, thief, warrior, ele, rev and ranger). You're not cutting it at the core, you're just streamlining condi down to a single class... ie the necro.Yeah, this. People get angry about necromancers (and the odd thief or mesmer) and just decide they want condition damage removed from the game across the board.

Really? I’m sure you can provide an explanation to that assumption...

Since this topic is on finally on the radar...

Maybe limit all skills/attacks to max 3 targets could solve something.