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Why i think casuals are the most important player in guild wars 2

Hello all, i wanted to talk about something i observed. I been playing guild wars 2 not very often or long, but i wanted to share my experience on why the casual player is the most important player for guild wars 2.

I watched streamers, pros, other casuals, and at the moment, i am considered a casual, - so yea i been watching different kinds of players and judge based on my own experience.

So why are casuals the most important player in guild wars 2 ? The reason is - they buy gems and support guild wars 2. I don't think pros and end game players support guild wars 2 that much. The reason is, fractals and raids provide way too much gold, and they give you stacks of armor boxes and materials, and you just flip legendaries as well as convert gold to gems and buy what you need.

Now..the casual...the casual is not skillful at raids or fractals, and they have poor gold generating skills or farm wood and ore, thus, they are most hurting for armor, gold, and resources. In this way, i think casuals would spend more on gems than streamers or raiders or fractal players. As a casual my self, i do like using money to gems to getting skins, power ups, and completing my account.

Completing account is another big thing. People who have been playing for years probably have most of the achievements, while new players have to start farming achievements. The gem shop helps with this, and i think veterans, pros, streamers - they won't spend money on gems since they already have endless gold and their achievements are high (in the 20ks )

Now what does this all mean ? i think (and assuming) that anet knows casuals are the major demographic of the player base and the ones most likely to spend gems as well as support guild wars 2 and complete maps in the living stories as well as dallies and farming materials.

I DID NOT say that casuals are bad or weak. I like being a casual due to my psychology and i am usually at peace playing guild wars 2.
Does that mean casuals are better than raiders and fractal players and pvPers ? on the contrary.... it seems that if we want to support guild wars 2 and help generate content, we need to spend and buy more gems.

I know that as soon as i start doing fractals or raiding, gold will be a thing of the past and money(gold) won't be a problem. I really think anet should nerf the gold generated from endgame content but otherwise, casuals and those who don't play end game are most likely to spend gems.

I support guild wars 2, but because of my emotions and moods, i don't always play everyday. Sometimes i play for a few weeks, and than play something else.

Any ways, what do you guys think about this ? i like guild wars 2 and support them but i am just gradually starting to get serious. Let me know what you guys think <3

<1

Comments

  • It's mutualistic symbiosis

  • Sifu.9745Sifu.9745 Member ✭✭
    edited September 15, 2020

    It's hard to stay casual in a game that favorises only pro players with super fast fingers. Game is just way too difficult for any kind of casual playstyle with exception of open world, which is irrelevant.

  • Hashberry.4510Hashberry.4510 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 15, 2020

    Ehh the scheme is rather ingenious since players converting gold to gems will drive up the amount of gold that cash gems buyers will get. You would not do as well without the farming and end game gold rewards in the mix.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @casualkenny.9817 said:
    It's mutualistic symbiosis

    Considering the time some of the casuals spend ingame, its more like ritualistic compulsion.

    gaggle - /ˈɡaɡ(ə)l/ - noun
    A disorderly group of Asura.
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  • Danikat.8537Danikat.8537 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I agree with everyone saying there's an important distinction between hardcore players who can complete the hardest content and/or spend a lot of time efficiently farming gold so they rarely/never need to buy gems and veteran players who have been playing GW2 for years. It's not automatic that if you play the game for long enough you end up spending your time farming gold or doing raids, and it's not actually required to spend a lot of time playing or build up a lot of AP to be able to do those things.

    Also if we're talking about how much money they bring in for Anet it's worth remembering that gems are only available to buy with gold if someone has previously bought them with real money and converted them to gold (and the same is true of the gold). That's why the exchange rate keeps changing - it's based on the number of people converting in each direction. Hypothetically if no one bought gems and converted them into gold eventually the supply would run out and it would be impossible to convert them the other way. In practice that will probably never happen because before it did the exchange rate would reach a point where it's not worth converting your gold, but anyone willing and able to buy gems would turn some into gold because they get so much, and then the rate would shift in the other direction.

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Angel.3916 said:
    So why are casuals the most important player in guild wars 2 ? The reason is - they buy gems and support guild wars 2. I don't think pros and end game players support guild wars 2 that much. The reason is, fractals and raids provide way too much gold, and they give you stacks of armor boxes and materials, and you just flip legendaries as well as convert gold to gems and buy what you need.

    Now..the casual...the casual is not skillful at raids or fractals, and they have poor gold generating skills or farm wood and ore, thus, they are most hurting for armor, gold, and resources. In this way, i think casuals would spend more on gems than streamers or raiders or fractal players. As a casual my self, i do like using money to gems to getting skins, power ups, and completing my account.

    Your argument kind of falls flat when you realize that "Grinding" easy meta events provides more gold than running fractals/raids. Gathering wood at Malchor's Leap with loads of alts also generates more gold. Furthermore, those running raids and fractals occasionally end up with less gold at the end of the week instead of more, due to failures, and thanks to training runs to help friends and others.

    Also, those running Fractals and Raids are more likely to have multiple characters, all requiring gear to properly set-up to fill different roles in their content of choice. Meanwhile, your "average casual" can enjoy those highly rewarding map meta events with just a single character.

    And since the easiest meta farms also attract the most players, your "poor gold generating skills" argument is null and void.

    Completing account is another big thing. People who have been playing for years probably have most of the achievements, while new players have to start farming achievements. The gem shop helps with this, and i think veterans, pros, streamers - they won't spend money on gems since they already have endless gold and their achievements are high (in the 20ks )

    As explained above, the "farmers" (and TP flippers but those are another story) are those with the endless gold, those farming Silverwastes or Drizzlewood religiously for hours. Not "Veterans" and not "pros".

    Now what does this all mean ? i think (and assuming) that anet knows casuals are the major demographic of the player base and the ones most likely to spend gems as well as support guild wars 2 and complete maps in the living stories as well as dallies and farming materials.

    Those that buy gems and those that support Guild Wars 2 are the invested players that have multiple characters, gear multiple characters, use the latest gem store skins and so on. This has very little (if anything) to do with the content they play, they just have to enjoy playing it (or feel rewarded enough playing it) and have enough of that content to satisfy them.

    I know that as soon as i start doing fractals or raiding, gold will be a thing of the past and money(gold) won't be a problem. I really think anet should nerf the gold generated from endgame content but otherwise, casuals and those who don't play end game are most likely to spend gems.

    You don't have to start doing Fractals or Raiding for gold to be a "Thing of the past", in fact doing that will limit your gold intake, at least for a time. Because you will have to buy several character slots, gear all those properly with gear, start buying food and utilities, get infusions (for fractals), expand your inventory and storage to store all the junk you will get. You will first get bankrupt before you start "earning good gold" from Fractals and Raids.

    On the other hand, you can go to Silverwastes or Drizzlewood right now. Get a second monitor to watch a show on Netflix while "farming" and start spamming 1 and F. By the time you finish watching your next series you will have enough gold to buy anything you want from the gem store.

    I think it's important to remember that time spent on a game is one of the distinctions between 'casual' and 'hardcore' players, as well as their skill or knowledge of the game. If someone plays for a few hours a day on a daily (or near daily) basis and spends the majority of their time farming meta events for gold then I'd say they're not a casual player, even if they can't or don't want to do harder content like raids and high level Fractals. They're still showing a significant understanding of an area of the game in knowing how to farm gold effectively, and devoting a lot of time to doing it.

    I also think you're right that there's a distinction between veteran players and hardcore players. A veteran is someone who has been playing GW2 for a long period of time, but contrary to popular belief there's no guarantee that they will automatically move on to harder content or dedicated farming during that time. Lots of us have been playing this game for years but choose to focus on casual activities because it's what we find fun. (This isn't unique to GW2 either, I see it all the time with other games.)

    Similarly there are newer players who can get to 80 within their first month, choose a build, make some exotic/ascended armour and go straight into 'end game' content and play effectively even though they're still new to the game, because it's what they're interested in and how they enjoy playing. They may rack up more hours in-game during that first month than a casual veteran spends in two months, and complete a lot more of their goals because they're focusing on doing it as efficiently as possible. That makes them a hardcore player even if their total time spent playing is still very low compared to some people who have been playing for years.

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:
    I think many 'Veterans' are casual players.
    I think many 'Veterans' don't have excess amounts of Gold.
    I don't think all 'Veterans' flip Legendaries.
    I don't think having 20K APs means one has endless Gold. (I wish that were true, but it's not.)

    Even those that don't 'buy Gems' are important. A well-populated game attracts players; a decent population is just as important.

    This almost describes me perfectly. I started about a year after launch. I'm just shy of 19k AP, sitting on just over 1k gold and have never had a precursor much less a legendary. I am a very casual player in that I have a limited amount of time to play due to real life commitments.

    I was going to say I'm impressed you have over 1k gold, when it seems like we're in a quite similar situation otherwise, but then I realised if I hadn't made legendaries I could probably have that much gold, but I spent it instead.

    For me 100g is a lot to have at one time, but I'm aware that's partially because when I do I spend it. But it can take me weeks or months to get back to 100g after spending it. I'm aware, in a general sense, of how to farm gold but I just don't have the time or inclination to farm meta events all day long. I have about an hour or two per day to play (not every day) and if I tried to match how other people play I could easily spend all that time farming and never get to do anything else, which would be both boring and pointless.

    Instead I spend my time doing things I find fun. The other day for example I spent an hour and a half going around Istan trying to do the lost library book achievement without a guide, just because I felt like finishing it off. I only found one book in that time and maybe got 1g worth of items, plus some karma and things of course, but I had fun revisiting the map and poking around to see what I could find. That to me is what defines a casual player - we not only don't worry about playing the hardest content, we don't worry about maximising the output or playing in the most efficient way or with the best possible builds. I realise other people find doing that more fun, and that's fine and absolutely a valid way to play (as long as you are enjoying it), but that's how I make the distinction between casual and hardcore players, with new and veteran players as an entirely separate distinction.

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  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sifu.9745 said:
    It's hard to stay casual in a game that favorises only pro players with super fast fingers. Game is just way too difficult for any kind of casual playstyle with exception of open world, which is irrelevant.

    Wait, are you talking about THIS game? That's hardly the case; if it DIDN'T favour casuals, it wouldn't be here in the first place. The 'exception' you speak of is actually the majority of game content.

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  • coso.9173coso.9173 Member ✭✭✭✭

    casuals are the most important to most MMOs, because they're the biggest demographic. please them and you'll have the most people happy. :)

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @coso.9173 said:
    casuals are the most important to most MMOs, because they're the biggest demographic. please them and you'll have the most people happy. :)

    Are they the biggest demographic? It depends on your usage/definition of the word

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Danikat.8537 said:
    I was going to say I'm impressed you have over 1k gold, when it seems like we're in a quite similar situation otherwise, but then I realised if I hadn't made legendaries I could probably have that much gold, but I spent it instead.

    I'm at the point where there really isn't much I need to spend gold on. I have the characters that I like to play decked out in gear that works for me and have no real need to change them. I typically save gold to convert to gems (like for the annual sale) but wait for the exchange to hit a threshold that I find acceptable. I can afford to wait because there usually isn't anything in the gem store that I want or need. I'll pick up gems here and there and stockpile them to be ready in case something does show up in the store that interests me.

    I did manage to save up for the "I'm rich, you know" title at one point. It's taken quite a while to get back up to where I am now. :)

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Danikat.8537 said:
    I think it's important to remember that time spent on a game is one of the distinctions between 'casual' and 'hardcore' players, as well as their skill or knowledge of the game. If someone plays for a few hours a day on a daily (or near daily) basis and spends the majority of their time farming meta events for gold then I'd say they're not a casual player, even if they can't or don't want to do harder content like raids and high level Fractals. They're still showing a significant understanding of an area of the game in knowing how to farm gold effectively, and devoting a lot of time to doing it.

    Of course and time spent is probably the most sensible distinction between the words 'casual' and 'hardcore'. The problem comes when someone claims that "casuals are the most important player in guild wars 2" and use a vague definition. If we use "time", are players that play 1 hour every month really the most important players in the game? Are players that play a few hours every month even any kind of "majority" (many claim casuals are the majority of players)? Because the way I see it the word is thrown around constantly to support different arguments, that are in many cases also in conflict with each other.

  • Tukaram.8256Tukaram.8256 Member ✭✭✭

    @Sifu.9745 said:
    It's hard to stay casual in a game that favorises only pro players with super fast fingers. Game is just way too difficult for any kind of casual playstyle with exception of open world, which is irrelevant.

    This game is amazingly casual friendly. It seems to me that most players are casual. And as for open world - that is about all I play. I love it. And judging from how many players I see running around, I am not the only one that likes open world.

  • Sifu.9745Sifu.9745 Member ✭✭
    edited September 15, 2020

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Sifu.9745 said:
    It's hard to stay casual in a game that favorises only pro players with super fast fingers. Game is just way too difficult for any kind of casual playstyle with exception of open world, which is irrelevant.

    Wait, are you talking about THIS game? That's hardly the case; if it DIDN'T favour casuals, it wouldn't be here in the first place. The 'exception' you speak of is actually the majority of game content.

    So what should i do in open world when i ding 80? I have no idea, really. After getting all 4 mounts, most mastery points, hero points, unlocked 2 elite specs i don't see a reason why should i ever get back to HoT and PoF maps? Oh yes, you can do some world bosses with 20 + people and get downed over and over again. Super casually!

    Personal story i am not interested about. Also not interested about any kind of living story. I don't even know what living story is lol, not kidding.

    I want to do PvP, WvW and do instanced pve but everything seems so difficult and hard core oriented. You can enter unranked PvP but it's not easy at all: one mistake and you get down within 1 - 3 seconds, if not max concentrated. Is this casual? WvW: not sure what to say here ..., Pve: one shot boss mechanics. Really? That's why i have never done even one single Fractal. I admit i have no courage to step into my first Fractal because i am pretty sure that i will be dying a lot + how to find a group for Fractal #1? No idea.

    If this game is really made for casuals, then we would see way more players, don't you think? Why can't we play PvP, WvW and instanced pve with every weapon we like? Why no group would accept my Staff/Scepter condi Mirage in Raids and Fractals? Is this casual?

    WoW is a typical casual game: you can play everything from super easy dangeons up to mythic raids and mythic dungeons. You can play every role you want with every weapon you want. You can play PvP where you don't get eliminated within 3 seconds, no matter how bad you are, even if you go AFK you will survive for 10 seconds at least vs one opponent. The only good thing about gW2 is that you don't need to endlessly farm gear: you can get exotic gear with almost no effort.

    Casual means, that you can do random content with other people and have some fun with whatever build and weapon set you want, instead of being maximum concentrated and coordinated with your group 24/7. Some of us are a bit lazy, you know.
    Sorry for English ...

  • TrOtskY.5927TrOtskY.5927 Member ✭✭✭

    I think casual is maybe the wrong word when I think about it. Many players log in every day for hours, for many years, but still don't know how to make gold well, don't play end game content etc.

    I'm not sure casual is the correct word.

  • Atomos.7593Atomos.7593 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @TrOtskY.5927 said:
    I think casual is maybe the wrong word when I think about it. Many players log in every day for hours, for many years, but still don't know how to make gold well, don't play end game content etc.

    I'm not sure casual is the correct word.

    Yeah, I'm not sure exactly what "casual" means. I've seen players that haven't played much in this game do well in harder content, and on the other hand players that have played thousands of hours still doing poorly.

  • SLOTH.5231SLOTH.5231 Member ✭✭✭

    I’ve been playing this game for 8 years I’ve spent lots of money and I buy all my gold I literally spent $450 this month alone converting gems to gold because I wanted 3 new legendaries. Call me what you will but this is what’s paying for the new expansions.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 15, 2020

    @Sifu.9745 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Sifu.9745 said:
    It's hard to stay casual in a game that favorises only pro players with super fast fingers. Game is just way too difficult for any kind of casual playstyle with exception of open world, which is irrelevant.

    Wait, are you talking about THIS game? That's hardly the case; if it DIDN'T favour casuals, it wouldn't be here in the first place. The 'exception' you speak of is actually the majority of game content.

    So what should i do in open world when i ding 80?

    Whatever there is to do there ... I mean, over half the maps in this game are targetted to level 80 ... the idea there isn't anything for a level 80 to do in OW content is absolutely absurd. But that's a moot point anyways because it doesn't change the fact that the majority of the content in this game is something you spoke to as an 'exception'. You say being casual means you can do what you want with other people and have some fun with whatever build and weapon set you want? WOW ... sounds exactly like how OW PVE actually works. Seems to me your 'exception' that you claim is 'irrelevant' proves the game is made for casual players based on your own definition.

    You can enter unranked PvP but it's not easy at all: one mistake and you get down within 1 - 3 seconds, if not max concentrated. Is this casual?

    So you think when you play against people in a competitive game mode, they should just roll over for you so you wave the 'casual player' flag? I mean ... how can you not understand the difficulty of a competitive game mode is determined by the skill of the players in that mode? It's not casual for you because you die too fast? That makes no sense. No, you're just not good at it compared to other players ... that's all. That has nothing to do with it being casual or not.

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    Just step aside or you might end up in a heap

  • I really don't like the axiomatic agenda of this. It draws what I think is an unnecessary line in the sand between 'Casuals' and...everyone else? What exactly is a casual anyway? Nobody's going to agree on a definition for this term, and the very act of trying to bisect the issue and then declare one arbitrary side to be of greater importance automatically throws the whole discussion - everyone's going to want to think of themselves as a casual because who, precisely, is going to want to identify and categorize themselves as being of lesser importance?

    And since we're all pretty much free to make up what 'casual' does and doesn't mean, the discussion was over pretty much before it even began.

    No. I think the better mindset to have is to understand that player experience is the most important thing no matter the individual's colloquially labeled playstyle.

    The quality of a player's experience with the game will directly impact retention, evangelizing and representation through extraneous mediums such as fan art, guides, content discussion videos, etcetera.

    It is completely counterintuitive and self-destructive to just draw some line in the sand and say one side is better because of reasons we'll never actually be able to meaningfully define let alone statistically determine.

    Every player is important because every player is both a potential paying customer, and money is blood in the body of any business, but also because every player is a potential spokesperson representing the game far and wide throughout their own social networks.

    From a god's-eye view, it seems easy to recognize which players fall into which demographics. Those players that seldom to never raid, do fractals or even dungeons might look definitively casual, and the hardcore raiders that religiously do their fractal dailies and then spend numerous hours a day in WvW or PvP might look definitively hardcore, but those assumptions can be and often are incorrect because they're conclusions drawn from woefully incomplete data.

    Sme people that seldom to never raid, do fractals or dungeons are hardcore farmers of events and harvesting nodes. They might have spreadsheets and exhaustively explored efficiency routes for farming and 37 alts they'll cycle through on nine different maps. Do you want to be the one to tell a person like that that their effort is objectively less valuable because they're not raiding or fractaling?

    What about the people that do just about nothing but pvp? They don't even interact with most of the game or most of the players in the game. They might not even contribute hardly anything to the game's economy because they're on no gear treadmills in pvp and there's no essential reason for them to bother with anything else if pvp is all they want to do.

    Are they casual or not? Who gets to say? What other categories other than 'casual' even are there? How do we define those in sufficiently distinctive contrast to justify their having a category of their own?

    Everyone that plays the game is important. Every game mode the devs make available at least should be regarded as being of equal importance to all others. And it should always be remembered that words like 'casual' are just shy of being meaningless in too many ways for them to be used as solid reference terms for much of anything.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Angel.3916 said:
    So why are casuals the most important player in guild wars 2 ? The reason is - they buy gems and support guild wars 2. I don't think pros and end game players support guild wars 2 that much. The reason is, fractals and raids provide way too much gold, and they give you stacks of armor boxes and materials, and you just flip legendaries as well as convert gold to gems and buy what you need.

    I know that as soon as i start doing fractals or raiding, gold will be a thing of the past and money(gold) won't be a problem. I really think anet should nerf the gold generated from endgame content but otherwise, casuals and those who don't play end game are most likely to spend gems.

    Except casual (hold down W and 1) open world farms like RIBA, Istan, Dragonfall and Drizzlewood Cost generally have been the highest gold/h farms/activities in the game, far exceeding Raids and often even Fractals - especially since most efficient Fractal farms have been nerfed/reworked.
    Not sure how flipping legendaries is tied to those game modes at all.

    There is already not that much point to playing endgame content, except ofc simply because it is really fun, and it's communities are already slowly dying since years because of lack of new content and in general appealing updates (incl. rewards) to bring in new people.

    @Sifu.9745 said:
    It's hard to stay casual in a game that favorises only pro players with super fast fingers. Game is just way too difficult for any kind of casual playstyle with exception of open world, which is irrelevant.

    Right, so 95%+ of content released, both through LW and expansions, being casual Open World content doesn't count and Anet is clearly favouring the filthy hardcores who dared to learn the game, with their little content drops every 1-3 years...

    @Atomos.7593 said:
    I think all the players in the game are important for long term success. Not just the whales or the hardcore, dedicated gamers.

    Exactly, an MMO needs a healthy spread among it's population to be successful longterm.
    There aren't enough hardcore players to carry a game on it's own, so casuals and whales just by means of numbers (population for the former, spending for the latter) are generally the bedrock of any MTX game, but once a game only has casual players or whales without hardcore players to boost activity, generate guides, organise events, lead communities etc., games start to feel dead, and then usually go that way too.
    The amount of players a game would need to not appear like a ghost town if mostly what it's got are players who log in once or twice a week for a bit or even just every 3 months to check out new content, or some high spending whales, in astronomical - which then leads to those players slowly quitting too to greener pastures.

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  • Hello all. Hope you're all having a good week. Lots of good feedback and good ideas about these things. I did get some different perspectives but i still think that the easiest way to make gold is to do fractals or raids.

    But yea, i think that fractals are the worst corporate for anet, because they drop tons of ascended armor boxes and they give you heaps and heaps of sellable loot for gold.

    As for the casual term. I did make a mistake on labeling what a casual is. I think that people who play PvE and PvP end game content are more hardcore while people who farm bosses, or trade the black lion auction house, or farm gold are more "relaxed". But i also want to say what i was saying earlier that ...

    The trade exchange is typically 50 gold for 250ish gems. And the best farming practices do like 40-50 gold an hour ? but fractals can get a good 120 or more gold if you spam them. I think people who don't abuse fractals would need to buy gems for gold right ?

    Also i have been farming materials. The thing that irks me is - there is diminishing returns and systems in place that block your exp and farming. So say i was farming vials of blood from beasts and animals, then the system would kick in and i would need to take a break. I don't like the system very much, but i know that it is there so i can spend gold on gems on buying vials of blood in the trade post. Which i don't mind, but i know that being self sufficient is not easy when systems block you.

    Any ways, sorry i wrote this post this morning. I was watching streamers and just got the ideas from them. I also seen guild mates do fractals and fractals are very nice.

    Well thanks for the reads you all <3

  • ASP.8093ASP.8093 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 15, 2020

    I think this is veering towards a definition of "casual" that's so broad it's basically meaningless.

    I've done Raids and T4s, I've maxed out all my Masteries, I've crafted and sold a Legendary to cash out Mystic Clovers, and I still buy some gems every time I want to pick up cosmetics. Why? Because I don't want to play chore-wheel: I want to see new things, I want to optimize my gear and make myself look pretty, I want to enjoy WvW. I'll do a bit of repetition in pursuit of those goals, but if I was looking at doing days of "RIBA" to get a single mount skin, I'd just straight-up quit the game instead — it's just not worth it, emotionally, at all.

    Fractals in particular give you good loot but also tons of ways to spend that money and other currencies: full Ascended gear, +9 Infusions (later upgradable to +5/+9), optimal food, all the special things like Omnipotions, account-wide Attunements, grinding the Legendary backpack. (And saving up for some of that stuff directly conflicts with optimizing your Fractal key buys.) I don't think I've actually "paid off" my investment in Fractals yet, though it's been fun so I don't care.

    And yet in other threads, when folks post about "casuals," they're suggesting that's a label specifically for people who don't know their way around a breakbar and have never set foot in Drizzlewood Coast.

  • Sifu.9745Sifu.9745 Member ✭✭
    edited September 15, 2020

    Right, so 95%+ of content released, both through LW and expansions, being casual Open World content doesn't count and Anet is clearly favouring the filthy hardcores who dared to learn the game, with their little content drops every 1-3 years...

    You do realize that we discuss about MMO? Living world is solo play. If Living World is the best that one MMO can offer to a casual player ... I would rather play a single player game then. And btw you can clear all LW stories in 30 to 60 hours. And then? You gonna play them over and over again? I don't think so.
    MMO means that you do content that require a smaller or larger group of people most of the time. And doing stuff with others is not casual friendly at all, especially not PvP, WvW and instanced pve. So if you wanna do any serious content, this game is not casual friendly at all.
    But sure you can do quests and super easy events in open world, you can ride around on your mounts and pretend that this game is friendly to casual players.

  • I think casuals are important because of their perspectives regardless of how "good" a player they are by whatever metrics you decide are important. I consider myself a casual player still after 5 years & I haven't let the "Savior of Tyria" title go to my head when it comes to the game or the way I treat other players for the most part unless they are a bit of a kittencanoe.

  • Klypto.1703Klypto.1703 Member ✭✭✭

    When senior leadership of the company who directly works on this game all bail on the company around the same time to me it sends a clear message. That things to come are so bad that it would make them completely leave their job to work on something that may never even get anywhere over what is going to happen to this game. So anyone who is still playing after that is a casual player. Plus its so bad that ncsoft put cantha on their fishing hooks here fishy fishy.

  • Atomos.7593Atomos.7593 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I do agree that there is not a great incentive to purchase things in the game with money besides the expansions, but that is the business model Anet has chosen. Maybe more releases of expansions would help this issue since they seem to attract a lot of purchases with money. But some might complain that they are not getting good value for their money in expansions if the expansions are not of high quality.

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Atomos.7593 said:
    I think all the players in the game are important for long term success. Not just the whales or the hardcore, dedicated gamers.

    Exactly, an MMO needs a healthy spread among it's population to be successful longterm.
    There aren't enough hardcore players to carry a game on it's own, so casuals and whales just by means of numbers (population for the former, spending for the latter) are generally the bedrock of any MTX game, but once a game only has casual players or whales without hardcore players to boost activity, generate guides, organise events, lead communities etc., games start to feel dead, and then usually go that way too.
    The amount of players a game would need to not appear like a ghost town if mostly what it's got are players who log in once or twice a week for a bit or even just every 3 months to check out new content, or some high spending whales, in astronomical - which then leads to those players slowly quitting too to greener pastures.

    Yeah the active players are also important, even if they don't spend as much relatively. It's an MMORPG where certain activities require a group to complete, which means that there needs to be enough other players to do all of the content in the game. It's not a single player game where you can buy all of the DLC and just play everything solo.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Wouldn’t a non-casual player be more likely to spend more money on the game because they dedicate more time and are more invested?

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sifu.9745 said:

    Right, so 95%+ of content released, both through LW and expansions, being casual Open World content doesn't count and Anet is clearly favouring the filthy hardcores who dared to learn the game, with their little content drops every 1-3 years...

    You do realize that we discuss about MMO? Living world is solo play. If Living World is the best that one MMO can offer to a casual player ... I would rather play a single player game then. And btw you can clear all LW stories in 30 to 60 hours. And then? You gonna play them over and over again? I don't think so.
    MMO means that you do content that require a smaller or larger group of people most of the time. And doing stuff with others is not casual friendly at all, especially not PvP, WvW and instanced pve. So if you wanna do any serious content, this game is not casual friendly at all.
    But sure you can do quests and super easy events in open world, you can ride around on your mounts and pretend that this game is friendly to casual players.

    WvW and Spvp are modes which pit you against other PLAYERS. There is not much in the way the developer can do to make up for your personal skill when facing more skilled opponents besides strait up just handing you an advantage. The question here is: how easy is it to get into the game mode, how low are the barriers? In case of Spvp very low given you can start pretty much strait away. In case of WvW it takes a tad longer, but even here with budget builds it is a fraction of what other games often require for their pvp modes. As such from an ease of entry approach, this game is again very casual friendly.

    As far as PvE content, the vast majority is catered to a weaker skilled player base. It does not matter that in this case this is called open world (as a matter of fact, low tier fractals are also aimed at less skilled player successfully and dungeons by now are just face roll easy. Those 2 cover like 80% of all instanced content.). As such, the vast majority of instanced and pve content overall is catered to weaker players. You simply chose to focus on the remaining 5% of hardcore content which you lack the skill to participate in. Understandable that this might bug you, that does not mean this content makes up the majority of what this game has to offer.

    The game is casual friendly in that you can achieve just about anything gear and play wise no matter how skilled you are, except in some cases it might take a bit longer. Being casual friendly is not synonymous with offering absolutely no challenge at all or catering to players who know nothing past their skill 1.

    It then depends on the definition of casual player, for which many use play time. Suffice to say: there are some very skilled casual players, while there are some very unskilled hardcore players. The difference here is in each individuals players approach into bettering themselves at this game.

  • Talindra.4958Talindra.4958 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Hi I consider myself casual xD I do buy gem to support the game when it comes to good content release. And i done all raids and fractals i do pvp and wvw. My gw2 activity is very casual nothing hardcore.

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  • ASP.8093ASP.8093 Member ✭✭✭

    @Sifu.9745 said:

    Right, so 95%+ of content released, both through LW and expansions, being casual Open World content doesn't count and Anet is clearly favouring the filthy hardcores who dared to learn the game, with their little content drops every 1-3 years...

    You do realize that we discuss about MMO? Living world is solo play. If Living World is the best that one MMO can offer to a casual player ... I would rather play a single player game then. And btw you can clear all LW stories in 30 to 60 hours. And then? You gonna play them over and over again? I don't think so.
    MMO means that you do content that require a smaller or larger group of people most of the time. And doing stuff with others is not casual friendly at all, especially not PvP, WvW and instanced pve. So if you wanna do any serious content, this game is not casual friendly at all.
    But sure you can do quests and super easy events in open world, you can ride around on your mounts and pretend that this game is friendly to casual players.

    Living World also means new maps, often ones with a mix of solo activities (like Skyscale collection or the light puzzles) and big metas that cause the players on the map to form ad-hoc groups (look at Dragonfall, Drizzlewood Coast, and Bjora Marches for example). That's not everyone's cup of tea -- I said upthread I get bored repeating content just to pick up 10 g worth of loot -- but there is a lot to do in the game just sorta tooling around at your own pace. I've been going out of my way to pick up mastery points recently, and I've found that I actually really enjoyed both the Bjora light puzzles and a bunch of the little HoT mini-games. There's lots of little things like that which have tangible rewards through the achievement system; most of them are quite "casual-friendly" in the sense that they don't require an organized group or a lot of repetition, don't impose any gear or build checks at all, and they're reasonably well-documented by the community as well.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 16, 2020

    @Angel.3916 said:
    I did get some different perspectives but i still think that the easiest way to make gold is to do fractals or raids.

    Well, technically they are the hardest way to make money, by miles in terms of gameplay. Which is why they should give a decent amount.

    @Angel.3916 said:
    And the best farming practices do like 40-50 gold an hour ? but fractals can get a good 120 or more gold if you spam them. I think people who don't abuse fractals would need to buy gems for gold right ?

    120g/h is vastly overestimated. Those numbers may have once been possible for a short time with things like Aquatic Farm, but these things have long been fixed.
    30g/h is much closer to the actual number you will pull in Fractals, which is exceeded by some brainless Auto Attack open world farms while requiring much more skill and investment to pull of effectively.

    If you know someone casually making 120g per hour currently in Fractals, please give them my number.

    On another note, to really make good money in Fractals (but still far, far from 120g/h) you need things like Fractal God for the extra Encryptions, but people tend to forget that that alone costs thousands of gold and months of effort to acquire, which really you are then just slowly getting back with the extra rewards.

    @Angel.3916 said:
    Also i have been farming materials. The thing that irks me is - there is diminishing returns and systems in place that block your exp and farming. So say i was farming vials of blood from beasts and animals, then the system would kick in and i would need to take a break. I don't like the system very much, but i know that it is there so i can spend gold on gems on buying vials of blood in the trade post. Which i don't mind, but i know that being self sufficient is not easy when systems block you.

    Farming materials directly from mobs usually is not the way to go in GW2. Profit is generally delegated to sea's of chests to loot after Meta Events or currencies like Volatile Magic, etc.

    Diminishing returns mostly exist to combat botting as far as I'm aware.

    @Sifu.9745 said:
    You do realize that we discuss about MMO? Living world is solo play. If Living World is the best that one MMO can offer to a casual player ... I would rather play a single player game then. And btw you can clear all LW stories in 30 to 60 hours. And then? You gonna play them over and over again? I don't think so.
    MMO means that you do content that require a smaller or larger group of people most of the time. And doing stuff with others is not casual friendly at all, especially not PvP, WvW and instanced pve. So if you wanna do any serious content, this game is not casual friendly at all.
    But sure you can do quests and super easy events in open world, you can ride around on your mounts and pretend that this game is friendly to casual players.

    Just because you don't enjoy the casual content GW2 provides doesn't mean it's not by far and wide the absolute focus demographic of Anet and vast vast majority of content in the game.
    The fact that GW2 arguably more or less failed as MMO and is delivering mostly tutorial level difficulty single player content is a whole other issue, but to say Anet favours hardcore twitch gameplay content is blatantly wrong when they release 15 minutes of that type of content every 1-3 years max.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Goettel.4389Goettel.4389 Member ✭✭✭✭

    We are, thanks :)

  • @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Wouldn’t a non-casual player be more likely to spend more money on the game because they dedicate more time and are more invested?

    So much this ^

    I am not a casual and I am a whale.

    This thread is another one of those "shower thoughts" someone had and has no data to back it up. Everyone is a potential supporter of the game, regardless of how invested they are and what they do in the game.

  • And just because casuals are the one that bring more income into the game doesn't mean that you are going to forget about pvp and wvw, there are not excuses.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sifu.9745 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Sifu.9745 said:
    It's hard to stay casual in a game that favorises only pro players with super fast fingers. Game is just way too difficult for any kind of casual playstyle with exception of open world, which is irrelevant.

    Wait, are you talking about THIS game? That's hardly the case; if it DIDN'T favour casuals, it wouldn't be here in the first place. The 'exception' you speak of is actually the majority of game content.

    So what should i do in open world when i ding 80? I have no idea, really. After getting all 4 mounts, most mastery points, hero points, unlocked 2 elite specs i don't see a reason why should i ever get back to HoT and PoF maps? Oh yes, you can do some world bosses with 20 + people and get downed over and over again. Super casually!

    Personal story i am not interested about. Also not interested about any kind of living story. I don't even know what living story is lol, not kidding.

    I want to do PvP, WvW and do instanced pve but everything seems so difficult and hard core oriented. You can enter unranked PvP but it's not easy at all: one mistake and you get down within 1 - 3 seconds, if not max concentrated. Is this casual? WvW: not sure what to say here ..., Pve: one shot boss mechanics. Really? That's why i have never done even one single Fractal. I admit i have no courage to step into my first Fractal because i am pretty sure that i will be dying a lot + how to find a group for Fractal #1? No idea.

    If this game is really made for casuals, then we would see way more players, don't you think? Why can't we play PvP, WvW and instanced pve with every weapon we like? Why no group would accept my Staff/Scepter condi Mirage in Raids and Fractals? Is this casual?

    WoW is a typical casual game: you can play everything from super easy dangeons up to mythic raids and mythic dungeons. You can play every role you want with every weapon you want. You can play PvP where you don't get eliminated within 3 seconds, no matter how bad you are, even if you go AFK you will survive for 10 seconds at least vs one opponent. The only good thing about gW2 is that you don't need to endlessly farm gear: you can get exotic gear with almost no effort.

    Casual means, that you can do random content with other people and have some fun with whatever build and weapon set you want, instead of being maximum concentrated and coordinated with your group 24/7. Some of us are a bit lazy, you know.
    Sorry for English ...

    Every "Gripe" you have with the game was answered with how Core handled it, ever weapon had a place. All builds could be used "Optimally" and by skipping out on the living story (Not the narrative but the MAPS and content in those maps) you put yourself at a slight disadvantage. Some maps have stat sets (Plauge-doctors for example is in S4 within the domain of Kourna) which is good for some niche builds and can be fun to play with. WvW is not hard at all, click on a tag on your mini-map and join it then follow the zerg OR find a guild that runs normally or has members who do and join up with them and run with them. Same goes for PvP... its a multiplayer game and requires multiplayer experiences; WoW requires this if you want to "Get good" and begin really PvPing or doing Mythic raiding... why should that be different here?

    Asking for that content to be easier kills that content, we had this when people asked for WvW to be dumbed down and it was. Siege was mad obsolete and various other mechanics scrapped; We have a beautiful map in edge of the mists neglected because people SCREAMED about it due to it requiring more thought that than alpine/Eternal battle grounds circle jerk zerg fest. Not ALL content is made for ALL players; If you can't adapt to the content then the content therefor might not be for you? Asking it to adapt to you is asking it to abandon and shun the people who DO enjoy it. Adding onto and innovating what exists? Sure. Bringing back what was ripped away to return rich and deep meaningful incursions? Sure, fine I am all down for that. Dumbing down the content to streamline it for people who adamantly REFUSE To learn? Im not about that. I never will be, and Im pretty casual honestly... been playing on and off since launch and while Im on at least once or twice a week its not for like all day sessions.

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Sifu.9745 said:
    You do realize that we discuss about MMO? Living world is solo play. If Living World is the best that one MMO can offer to a casual player ... I would rather play a single player game then. And btw you can clear all LW stories in 30 to 60 hours. And then? You gonna play them over and over again? I don't think so.
    MMO means that you do content that require a smaller or larger group of people most of the time. And doing stuff with others is not casual friendly at all, especially not PvP, WvW and instanced pve. So if you wanna do any serious content, this game is not casual friendly at all.
    But sure you can do quests and super easy events in open world, you can ride around on your mounts and pretend that this game is friendly to casual players.

    Just because you don't enjoy the casual content GW2 provides doesn't mean it's not by far and wide the absolute focus demographic of Anet and vast vast majority of content in the game.
    The fact that GW2 arguably more or less failed as MMO and is delivering mostly tutorial level difficulty single player content is a whole other issue, but to say Anet favours hardcore twitch gameplay content is blatantly wrong when they release 15 minutes of that type of content every 1-3 years max.

    Id like to add to what Asum said here, because there is a relevance to what was said. Guild wars 2 did indeed fail as an mmo; It does not require you to interact with anyone unless you CHOOSE too and we know tons of people just wont. But putting content behind guilds it would make guilds mean something, something of value to those who like and even those who dont like them. Some people are biased due to ONE bad expierence, when there are tons of gamers out there and guilds out there of sweet and very helpful people who WANT to help people better themselves and SEE that content. They dont mind carrying people through raids, or fractals or whatever else.... and its a shame that A-net didn't put more effort into giving guilds a purpose outside of a glorified nod to the original game.

    Also the complaints above are exactly WHY WvW/PvP/Raids/Fractals and likely soon to be strikes will never get more cadence because A-nets answer to the problems raised and the whining of very vocal minorities in the fan-base is "Just give them living world." And that is because living world can be easy, but grindy to give the players the feeling their are indeed accomplishing something. But this has drug the game down SOOOOO MUCH over the years, HoT was amazing but because of the backlash from people who were not the majority it was devastated with nerfs and was left to rot. It required team-play and was the answer to everyone saying and meme'n it up with "guild wars 2 has no end-game... REEEE!" Then we got the complete dumpster fire that was PoF of which I've NEVER gone back too because it was a boring expansion, with a bad narrative and beautiful and well crafted but EMPTY HOLLOW MAPS. The game should NOT have to adapt to the player, the player should have to adapt if they want to complete X content. I can't go busting into raids with my WvW build because BOTH MODES require different things to be succesful, and both modes play 100% differently from one another.

    WvW/PvP/Raids/Fractals and yes even strikes are in the state they are in not because of casual players. But because of lazy ones. Ones who dont want to play the game and want a mobile like expierence, where the game basically plays itself and you watch. I've watched a very beautiful game and one I loved dearly go to a place that is hard to follow or stomach, the game is not in a good place in content cadence FOR EVERYONE right now. And balance is ... well lmfao its not even close to applicable in anything other than a "Con". The more you cater to those who do not wish to play this game but another, the more you stray from what you were and what we all fell in love with... and that will only loose you both the ones who never intended to stay.... and those who wanted too but will no longer. From a Tyrian... focus on Tyrians... focus on those who STAYED for the long haul and have been here and continue to be here; New blood will come. New world is trying to be "hardcore" with its content but people will flock to it, ESO is even more hard core than guild wars (Honestly probably more than WoW right now.) Yet casual and "Lazy gamers" flock to it. Gamers of all calibers will come so long as a thriving ecosystem and community exists in which they can interact.... and guild wars 2? Well the closest you get to really interacting with the community, or being apart of it is reading map chat. Focus on keeping what works.... working... and work on innovating and building upon the foundations while minimizing what doesn't work so that the game can grow.

  • Atomos.7593Atomos.7593 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    Also the complaints above are exactly WHY WvW/PvP/Raids/Fractals and likely soon to be strikes will never get more cadence because A-nets answer to the problems raised and the whining of very vocal minorities in the fan-base is "Just give them living world." And that is because living world can be easy, but grindy to give the players the feeling their are indeed accomplishing something. But this has drug the game down SOOOOO MUCH over the years, HoT was amazing but because of the backlash from people who were not the majority it was devastated with nerfs and was left to rot. It required team-play and was the answer to everyone saying and meme'n it up with "guild wars 2 has no end-game... REEEE!" Then we got the complete dumpster fire that was PoF of which I've NEVER gone back too because it was a boring expansion, with a bad narrative and beautiful and well crafted but EMPTY HOLLOW MAPS. The game should NOT have to adapt to the player, the player should have to adapt if they want to complete X content. I can't go busting into raids with my WvW build because BOTH MODES require different things to be succesful, and both modes play 100% differently from one another.

    I agree. I haven't seen another MMO change so greatly over time in terms of difficulty and open world. It kind of feels like GW2 has always lacked an identity that Anet felt confident to develop the game with.

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    HoT was amazing but because of the backlash from people who were not the majority it was devastated with nerfs and was left to rot.

    I would like to think that Anet made the decision to adjust HoT based on something other than your suggested "not the majority". To me, your point doesn't make business sense.

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 16, 2020

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    HoT was amazing but because of the backlash from people who were not the majority it was devastated with nerfs and was left to rot.

    I would like to think that Anet made the decision to adjust HoT based on something other than your suggested "not the majority". To me, your point doesn't make business sense.

    I‘d also like souces of the HoT nerf being due to a minority.
    If we look at revenue during pre-HoT content drought and post-HoT release it paints a clear picture to me how HoT content was initially recieved.

    I‘d also argue that gerent has more player activity post-nerf than pre-nerf, in my own subjective experience, as we haven‘t recieved any numbers on playernumbers during events from Anet. So „left to rot“ is a strong statement to make, when I actually see more people doing it after the nerf than before.

    You have a heart of gold. Don't let them take it from you.
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  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 16, 2020

    @Sifu.9745 said:

    Right, so 95%+ of content released, both through LW and expansions, being casual Open World content doesn't count and Anet is clearly favouring the filthy hardcores who dared to learn the game, with their little content drops every 1-3 years...

    You do realize that we discuss about MMO? Living world is solo play. If Living World is the best that one MMO can offer to a casual player ... I would rather play a single player game then. And btw you can clear all LW stories in 30 to 60 hours. And then? You gonna play them over and over again? I don't think so.
    MMO means that you do content that require a smaller or larger group of people most of the time. And doing stuff with others is not casual friendly at all, especially not PvP, WvW and instanced pve. So if you wanna do any serious content, this game is not casual friendly at all.
    But sure you can do quests and super easy events in open world, you can ride around on your mounts and pretend that this game is friendly to casual players.

    I love how you define what PVE to you just so your narrow view of this game is correct; how contrived. I don't know how you have come to the conclusions you have ... but GW2 is about as casual a game as you can find ... even SOME of the instanced content (not all). ALL the content is 'serious' and your attempts to dismiss the parts of it that prove you wrong as not serious is a big blow to your credibility and your point. Just because LW is solo play doesn't exclude it as part of the experience of this game and its casual appeal. In fact, that's exactly part of the reason the game has such a strong casual feel to it ... because elements of it allow players to be successful on their own terms.

    The label doesn't matter and no, MMO doesn't mean you do content that requires a group ... it means you are in a world with other players who are online that you CAN do content with if you choose to ... just like EVERY other MMO. If you are going to make arguments based on definitions ... get them right; don't just invent them to get the result you want. Just because the elements of this game that may be favoured by casual players isn't content you care for doesn't mean the game isn't a good casual experience.

    If you're on a highway and roadrunner goes "beep beep"
    Just step aside or you might end up in a heap

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    HoT was amazing but because of the backlash from people who were not the majority it was devastated with nerfs and was left to rot.

    I would like to think that Anet made the decision to adjust HoT based on something other than your suggested "not the majority". To me, your point doesn't make business sense.

    I‘d also like souces of the HoT nerf being due to a minority.

    There aren't any because the whole minority/majority argument is silly. The so called "nerf" of HOT wasn't even massive to begin with, in terms of difficulty and mob spawns. They changed champion hero points into veterans so new players in Verdant Brink could get their elite specs unlocked faster, they nerfed exactly one mob in terms of skills (Itzel Shadowleaper), and reduced mob density on walkways leading to different parts of areas. The actual mobs in event areas weren't even touched. It's that players eventually got better at playing the game and when they went back to HOT they found it easier and they... "blame" the nerfs. Oh well

    The biggest change was how meta events work, rewarding players in steps and not only at the end of the meta, and that was a great change for everyone.
    @Thornwolf.9721 is right about "left to rot" though, with the new meta reward system there is little reason to stay on HOT maps outside meta events and the population there is indeed very low, until the meta starts. But that's normal for every other map in the game, so not really a problem.

    If we look at revenue during pre-HoT content drought and post-HoT release it paints a clear picture to me how HoT content was initially recieved.

    Pre-HOT the game wasn't free, post-HOT the core game became free, which is the reason given by NCSoft themselves for the decline of revenue after the release of HOT. Gem store sales are stable, game sales are low because conversions are low. According to the data analysts and economists of NCsoft that is. Forum economists might have different ideas.

    I‘d also argue that gerent has more player activity post-nerf than pre-nerf, in my own subjective experience, as we haven‘t recieved any numbers on playernumbers during events from Anet. So „left to rot“ is a strong statement to make, when I actually see more people doing it after the nerf than before.

    Nitpicking: Chak Gerent nerf wasn't part of the "big HOT nerf", Chak Gerent was nerfed much much later

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 16, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    HoT was amazing but because of the backlash from people who were not the majority it was devastated with nerfs and was left to rot.

    I would like to think that Anet made the decision to adjust HoT based on something other than your suggested "not the majority". To me, your point doesn't make business sense.

    I‘d also like souces of the HoT nerf being due to a minority.

    There aren't any because the whole minority/majority argument is silly. The so called "nerf" of HOT wasn't even massive to begin with, in terms of difficulty and mob spawns. They changed champion hero points into veterans so new players in Verdant Brink could get their elite specs unlocked faster, they nerfed exactly one mob in terms of skills (Itzel Shadowleaper), and reduced mob density on walkways leading to different parts of areas. The actual mobs in event areas weren't even touched. It's that players eventually got better at playing the game and when they went back to HOT they found it easier and they... "blame" the nerfs. Oh well

    The biggest change was how meta events work, rewarding players in steps and not only at the end of the meta, and that was a great change for everyone.
    @Thornwolf.9721 is right about "left to rot" though, with the new meta reward system there is little reason to stay on HOT maps outside meta events and the population there is indeed very low, until the meta starts. But that's normal for every other map in the game, so not really a problem.

    Can't be "left to rot" when the playerbase was already avoiding HoT maps like the plague to begin with. The increase in playernumbers came with the new rewards, like you stated.

    If we look at revenue during pre-HoT content drought and post-HoT release it paints a clear picture to me how HoT content was initially recieved.

    Pre-HOT the game wasn't free, post-HOT the core game became free, which is the reason given by NCSoft themselves for the decline of revenue after the release of HOT. Gem store sales are stable, game sales are low because conversions are low. According to the data analysts and economists of NCsoft that is. Forum economists might have different ideas.

    I'd actually really like to see the source where NCsofts data analysts and economists outright state that it is due to F2P! Feel free to share.

    I‘d also argue that gerent has more player activity post-nerf than pre-nerf, in my own subjective experience, as we haven‘t recieved any numbers on playernumbers during events from Anet. So „left to rot“ is a strong statement to make, when I actually see more people doing it after the nerf than before.

    Nitpicking: Chak Gerent nerf wasn't part of the "big HOT nerf", Chak Gerent was nerfed much much later

    Also nitpicking: neither me nor Thornwolf have mentioned a "big HoT nerf". We, or atleast I was just talking about nerfs to HoT content. So your nitpicking is kinda irrelevant.

    You have a heart of gold. Don't let them take it from you.
    Remaster confirmed! Umbasa!

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 16, 2020

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    HoT was amazing but because of the backlash from people who were not the majority it was devastated with nerfs and was left to rot.

    I would like to think that Anet made the decision to adjust HoT based on something other than your suggested "not the majority". To me, your point doesn't make business sense.

    I‘d also like souces of the HoT nerf being due to a minority.
    If we look at revenue during pre-HoT content drought and post-HoT release it paints a clear picture to me how HoT content was initially recieved.

    I‘d also argue that gerent has more player activity post-nerf than pre-nerf, in my own subjective experience, as we haven‘t recieved any numbers on playernumbers during events from Anet. So „left to rot“ is a strong statement to make, when I actually see more people doing it after the nerf than before.

    I dont have a source, this is entirely a subjective opinion. I loved HoT when it came out; And to this day I still hate PoF (Note I do not consider living world as part of the expansion, they are linked but I look at what we get for money spent on the expansion. HoT just brought more to the table.) A-net has and always likely will be knee jerky with their reactions; Id like for that to change but its just how they work. Im not saying all the changes were bad but I liked how difficult HoT was and back then I was not as much a WvW player or PvP as guild wars 2 as I've gotten older has offered me more in terms of competitive play. When I was young I just wanted to go out and kill monsters, have a minor story and have cool zones. HoT gave me that, the mastery system, the revenant and E-specs along with tons of really well designed zones and guild halls. PoF to me just handed mounts and some interesting E-specs (Spellbreaker, Renegade) But two out of nine just doesn't cut it for me, HoT had me excited for everything even classes I didn't play at the time.

    Like I've said before if End of dragons is just PoF 2, electric bugaloo then imma skip out on it. PoF really opened my eyes to the fact that A-net is not offering what I as a consumer wants or what I feel is worthy of my money. PoF to me even though it was around thirty bucks, I still feel that is too much for what the inital launch constituted in and I want End of Dragons to be worthy and priced at 60$ so they can make some solid money. But I can't justify that when the expansions really don't feel like expansions; When compared to other games and even when compared to guild wars 1. The second expansion was just more of the same and felt like we were going through the motions and as much as I adore mounts now; We didn't need them and we all know this. PoF litterally was the "mount expansion" nothing more, story was meh and a lot of the content was meh. I have never once gone back to the PoF zones once I was done with them and likely I probably wont go back anytime soon if ever, S4 maps are a different story but again living world =/= expansion in my eyes.

    Edit: Raknar's right, I never was mentioning Chakk Gerent specifically. I was more talking about ALL the other content that got pooped on and dumbed down because "iT ToO HaRd Reeee!" Because thats what happened. And I never meant that HoT was left to rot or that overworld pve in general has been left to rot; No when I say left to rot I mean all the other game modes. The argument in this thread from the OP is that "Hardcore" content has more cadence than Casual content but the focus, and all the drive is open world PvE which is as casual as you can get. You can do open world PvE with anything, even naked with just a weapon and jewlery with now issues once so ever? But all the modes that require some form of time investement, growth, social interaction and learning the game have been abandoned at levels that are baffling. Raids/WvW/PvP/Fractals and even Strikes have been left with little content cadence and yes we just had a fractal launch but after how freak'n long? How long until the next one? I dont even raid and haven't since HoT but I still feel for that portion of the player-base who is neglected, unwanted and left with nothing very similarly to how PvP and WvW are treated. You dont go "To the one pvper in the back!" At an event as a jab at that side of the player base, unless you REALLY dont care about them at all.

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 16, 2020

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    HoT was amazing but because of the backlash from people who were not the majority it was devastated with nerfs and was left to rot.

    I would like to think that Anet made the decision to adjust HoT based on something other than your suggested "not the majority". To me, your point doesn't make business sense.

    I‘d also like souces of the HoT nerf being due to a minority.
    If we look at revenue during pre-HoT content drought and post-HoT release it paints a clear picture to me how HoT content was initially recieved.

    I‘d also argue that gerent has more player activity post-nerf than pre-nerf, in my own subjective experience, as we haven‘t recieved any numbers on playernumbers during events from Anet. So „left to rot“ is a strong statement to make, when I actually see more people doing it after the nerf than before.

    I dont have a source, this is entirely a subjective opinion. I loved HoT when it came out; And to this day I still hate PoF (Note I do not consider living world as part of the expansion, they are linked but I look at what we get for money spent on the expansion. HoT just brought more to the table.) A-net has and always likely will be knee jerky with their reactions; Id like for that to change but its just how they work. Im not saying all the changes were bad but I liked how difficult HoT was and back then I was not as much a WvW player or PvP as guild wars 2 as I've gotten older has offered me more in terms of competitive play. When I was young I just wanted to go out and kill monsters, have a minor story and have cool zones. HoT gave me that, the mastery system, the revenant and E-specs along with tons of really well designed zones and guild halls. PoF to me just handed mounts and some interesting E-specs (Spellbreaker, Renegade) But two out of nine just doesn't cut it for me, HoT had me excited for everything even classes I didn't play at the time.

    Like I've said before if End of dragons is just PoF 2, electric bugaloo then imma skip out on it. PoF really opened my eyes to the fact that A-net is not offering what I as a consumer wants or what I feel is worthy of my money. PoF to me even though it was around thirty bucks, I still feel that is too much for what the inital launch constituted in and I want End of Dragons to be worthy and priced at 60$ so they can make some solid money. But I can't justify that when the expansions really don't feel like expansions; When compared to other games and even when compared to guild wars 1. The second expansion was just more of the same and felt like we were going through the motions and as much as I adore mounts now; We didn't need them and we all know this. PoF litterally was the "mount expansion" nothing more, story was meh and a lot of the content was meh. I have never once gone back to the PoF zones once I was done with them and likely I probably wont go back anytime soon if ever, S4 maps are a different story but again living world =/= expansion in my eyes.

    That's fine! I just wasn't a fan of the majority/minority argument.
    Voting with your wallet is the best thing you can do as a customer, so if you didn't like PoF and EoD is similiar, what you intend to do (not buying it) is the best thing you can do to send a message. If enough people do that, Anet will notice that in their stats and change direction.

    I liked the PoF story way more than HoT, PoF maps with their reward increase have gotten roughly the same playtime amount HoT maps have gotten from me (Nowadays I only do gerent and the occasional AB, haven't visited Dragon's Stand in months). Many of the PoF e-speccs however were my least favourite feature. I hope they can do better with EoD.

    The only tip i can give you is waiting some time before buying EoD once it releases and checking what people say about it. If you like the direction and want to experience the expansion for yourself, buy it. If not, then don't.

    You have a heart of gold. Don't let them take it from you.
    Remaster confirmed! Umbasa!

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    HoT was amazing but because of the backlash from people who were not the majority it was devastated with nerfs and was left to rot.

    I would like to think that Anet made the decision to adjust HoT based on something other than your suggested "not the majority". To me, your point doesn't make business sense.

    I‘d also like souces of the HoT nerf being due to a minority.
    If we look at revenue during pre-HoT content drought and post-HoT release it paints a clear picture to me how HoT content was initially recieved.

    I‘d also argue that gerent has more player activity post-nerf than pre-nerf, in my own subjective experience, as we haven‘t recieved any numbers on playernumbers during events from Anet. So „left to rot“ is a strong statement to make, when I actually see more people doing it after the nerf than before.

    I dont have a source, this is entirely a subjective opinion. I loved HoT when it came out; And to this day I still hate PoF (Note I do not consider living world as part of the expansion, they are linked but I look at what we get for money spent on the expansion. HoT just brought more to the table.) A-net has and always likely will be knee jerky with their reactions; Id like for that to change but its just how they work. Im not saying all the changes were bad but I liked how difficult HoT was and back then I was not as much a WvW player or PvP as guild wars 2 as I've gotten older has offered me more in terms of competitive play. When I was young I just wanted to go out and kill monsters, have a minor story and have cool zones. HoT gave me that, the mastery system, the revenant and E-specs along with tons of really well designed zones and guild halls. PoF to me just handed mounts and some interesting E-specs (Spellbreaker, Renegade) But two out of nine just doesn't cut it for me, HoT had me excited for everything even classes I didn't play at the time.

    Like I've said before if End of dragons is just PoF 2, electric bugaloo then imma skip out on it. PoF really opened my eyes to the fact that A-net is not offering what I as a consumer wants or what I feel is worthy of my money. PoF to me even though it was around thirty bucks, I still feel that is too much for what the inital launch constituted in and I want End of Dragons to be worthy and priced at 60$ so they can make some solid money. But I can't justify that when the expansions really don't feel like expansions; When compared to other games and even when compared to guild wars 1. The second expansion was just more of the same and felt like we were going through the motions and as much as I adore mounts now; We didn't need them and we all know this. PoF litterally was the "mount expansion" nothing more, story was meh and a lot of the content was meh. I have never once gone back to the PoF zones once I was done with them and likely I probably wont go back anytime soon if ever, S4 maps are a different story but again living world =/= expansion in my eyes.

    That's fine! I just wasn't a fan of the majority/minority argument.
    Voting with your wallet is the best thing you can do as a customer, so if you didn't like PoF and EoD is similiar, what you intend to do (not buying it) is the best thing you can do to send a message. If enough people do that, Anet will notice that in their stats and change direction.

    I liked the PoF story way more than HoT, PoF maps with their reward increase have gotten the same playtime amount HoT maps have gotten from me (Nowadays I only do gerent and the occasional AB, haven't visited Dragon's Stand in months). Many of the PoF e-speccs however were my least favourite feature. I hope they can do better with EoD.

    The only tip i can give you is waiting some time before buying EoD once it releases and checking what people say about it. If you like the direction and want to experience the expansion for yourself, buy it. If not, then don't.

    Very much the same on the E-specs, I also think PoF had a better plot as it went along than HoT. But HoT's plot was a mess and just jumped around and went places then didn't pay off on them really; PoF at least had direction and a narrative focus squarely on balthazar. Mordremoth didn't even really make an appearance until the end of HoT and even then I was more concerned with everything else, not the dragon itself. That said though I feel Mordremoth was the best dragon fight we've gotten (In open world) but Kralk was a better instanced battle.

    Id Say S4 was the best PvE experience I've had, and its crossed over into Icebrood saga. So PvE Im not really worried about as Im sure they've got this but Id like WvW (My game mode of choice) to get some hardcore love. I also hope like you that E-specs will be cooler in End of dragons; I also hope that maybe... we have some big surprises coming out way? Stuff that we never thought A-net would attempt sort of goodies if you catch my drift.