Recent Balance Patch - Guardian - Virtues CD

I wanted to discuss recent patch note:

"Power of the Virtuous: Fixed a bug that caused this trait to apply an incorrect amount of reduction to Virtue of Justice, Spear of Justice, Virtue of Resolve, and Wings of Resolve."

For Core Guardian that was disappointing. The reduction has been around since August (if not earlier), and honestly I though it was working as intended. VoJ and VoR have 14 and 21 sec CD respectively was not out performing by any means in any game form. I though their CDs were reduced cuz core guardian virtues as a whole are not performing that great.

Anyone else feels that the "bugged" CDs were more appropriate for core guardian virtues? Heck, I think VoC CD at 45 (38.5 traited) is too long and that VoJ damage in PvE should be upped to sPvP level.

Maybe that's what it was. I tried to run a core guardian build and it felt much weaker than I remember. Virtues are still far from OP.

Base guardian virtues are a joke. Easily the worst profession mechanic in the game.

VoJ is at least decent in pvp, but VoR and VoC? 45s cd for a stack of aegis? Laughable. Mesmers get full invulnerability for that cooldown.

I was hoping at least they revert the recent changes to core guardian, so VoJ and VoR have their CDs back to 14 and 21, traited, instead of 17 and 21 traited.

Ideally they should also reduce the CD of VoC and make VoJ damage in PvE same as sPvP.

@RabbitUp.8294 said:Base guardian virtues are a joke. Easily the worst profession mechanic in the game.

VoJ is at least decent in pvp, but VoR and VoC? 45s cd for a stack of aegis? Laughable. Mesmers get full invulnerability for that cooldown.

The base effect is pretty weak, but with traits you get protection, retaliation, and stability , with protection and stability also going to allies. And I can see situations where having those available instantaneously and on shorter recharge can be more valuable than the dragonhunter shield.

The opportunity cost for activating it is pretty low, too: time it right, in fact, and you could lose nothing by activating it (as it has the potential to recharge before the passive Aegis renews anyway).

@draxynnic.3719 said:

@RabbitUp.8294 said:Base guardian virtues are a joke. Easily the worst profession mechanic in the game.

VoJ is at least decent in pvp, but VoR and VoC? 45s cd for a stack of aegis? Laughable. Mesmers get full invulnerability for that cooldown.

Yes, they are trait mules, but so are mesmer shatters, while also being useful on their own. More importantly, so are DH and FB virtues, and their cooldowns are not that different, especially for DH.

The opportunity cost for activating it is pretty low, too: time it right, in fact, and you could lose nothing by activating it (as it has the potential to recharge before the passive Aegis renews anyway).

So? If Resolve healed for 100 on activation, would you say "well, you lose nothing"? No, I lose the potential for an actually useful and good skill. And especially when all our heals are nerfed because of VoR, so it's like we don't have it as a profession mechanic.Like, sure, you can potentially block 1 attack on a 45s cooldown. But look what other professions get as their mechanics. VoC is exclusively carried by Indomitable Courage. But giving us a blank button that we need to pick a trait to inject functionality to, is crap design.

@draxynnic.3719 said:

@RabbitUp.8294 said:Base guardian virtues are a joke. Easily the worst profession mechanic in the game.

VoJ is at least decent in pvp, but VoR and VoC? 45s cd for a stack of aegis? Laughable. Mesmers get full invulnerability for that cooldown.

If you do not consider the aegis VoC has the exact same effect as shield 4. Shield 4 has 20 sec CD while VoC has 45. You can use VoC while CCed and traited provides aegis. I cannot see the value of a CC break and 4 sec stability to be 45 sec CD.

@otto.5684 said:

@draxynnic.3719 said:

@RabbitUp.8294 said:Base guardian virtues are a joke. Easily the worst profession mechanic in the game.

VoJ is at least decent in pvp, but VoR and VoC? 45s cd for a stack of aegis? Laughable. Mesmers get full invulnerability for that cooldown.

Instantaneous, 600 range and affects allies.

I would agree that it should still be on a lower cooldown though.

Base VoC shouldn't have longer than a 25 sec CD if we're being honest.

@Arcaedus.7290 said:

@otto.5684 said:

@draxynnic.3719 said:

@RabbitUp.8294 said:Base guardian virtues are a joke. Easily the worst profession mechanic in the game.

VoJ is at least decent in pvp, but VoR and VoC? 45s cd for a stack of aegis? Laughable. Mesmers get full invulnerability for that cooldown.

Ya, I think base CD of base 35 sec is decent.

We could debate regarding VoC appropriate CD. Though it is save to say VoJ 17 sec and VoR at 25 secs, traited, is too long.

Core Guard virtues should use ammo. Then you can keep the cooldown the same.

@Arcaedus.7290 said:

@otto.5684 said:

@draxynnic.3719 said:

@RabbitUp.8294 said:Base guardian virtues are a joke. Easily the worst profession mechanic in the game.

VoJ is at least decent in pvp, but VoR and VoC? 45s cd for a stack of aegis? Laughable. Mesmers get full invulnerability for that cooldown.

Plus, VoC doesn't require you to use shield, and if you DO use shield, you get to use the effect three times every 40s (if you're running the Virtues line, the recharge on VoC is a little under 40s). If you really want to play that game, you can add mace 3 as well. And traits that trigger off Aegis.

Another comparison you could make is with Stand Your Ground: Instantaneous stability for allies (but only a stunbreak for you) on a 30s base recharge... but that's a utility slot. And again, you can have both.

One issue with shortening the recharge on VoC is that if it gets too short it stops being a sacrifice: the passive aegis refresh is on a 40s recharge, so if VoC recharges quickly and you time it right, you don't lose the passive activation. Whether that would be a bad thing is open to interpretation, but it is a consideration.

Incidentally, regarding RabbitUp's comparison: Mesmers have a pretty high opportunity cost to using a shatter: They lose all their illusions (Chronomancer can give them back, but that has limits and is on an elite spec).

For the rest: So, VoC is a relatively weak profession mechanic if untraited (although it gets better with traits). So? If the profession as a whole holds up, it can have a less powerful set of function key abilities. Professions with powerful function key abilities tend to rely on those abilities to be effective: guardians, on the other hand, often work fine without using them at all (although obviously using them well will help you be just that little bit more efficient).

I like how you are talking about aegis as if it is a rare commidity, when the new heal mantra can pop 2 back to back. I am not suggesting VoC CD becomes 20 sec, but it needs a CD reduction from 45 sec.

And that was not the main point of this thread :/ . Can we have VoJ and VoR CD reduced?

@otto.5684 said:I like how you are talking about aegis as if it is a rare commidity, when the new heal mantra can pop 2 back to back. I am not suggesting VoC CD becomes 20 sec, but it needs a CD reduction from 45 sec.

Firebrand is king of Aegis. Before firebrand, Aegis was a... relatively... rare commodity, and core guardian is obviously not going to have access to the firebrand heal (but may have other benefits to counteract that?)

However, I was, ultimately, responding to your observation that VoC, if you're running Virtues but you're not running Indomitable Courage, is equivalent to shield 4, granting both Aegis and Protection. This is true, and getting a block off with Mace 3 also has a comparable effect. Unlike any of these, though, VoC is instant and also, if running Indomitable Courage, adds stunbreak and stability... and it can be chained with other sources of Aegis.

Now, could the core virtues benefit from having reduced cooldowns regardless? Quite possibly. But I certainly don't regard them as a joke.

@draxynnic.3719 said:

@otto.5684 said:I like how you are talking about aegis as if it is a rare commidity, when the new heal mantra can pop 2 back to back. I am not suggesting VoC CD becomes 20 sec, but it needs a CD reduction from 45 sec.

You can't defend VoC strictly through the existence of traits, because you have access to them even as an elite spec. ToC has only 5s longer cd, and has access to all the same stuff. There's the matter of the cast time, but is it really enough to justify one being a stack of aegis and nothing else, while the Tome having all those skills, and aegis on every auto?

And yes, it is a joke, because it's a completely ignorable skill without IC. All skills that apply aegis have some additional bonus, VoC is the one exception and is the one with the longest cooldown on top of that.

Yes, it's instant and yes, you have access to it regardless of skill or weapon choices, but that's what it means to be a profession mechanic. You will have a hard time finding a worse profession skill than VoC, without IC.

VoR was not that much better but at least they buffed it with some built-in condi removal. VoC needs something more, or a cd reduction.

If you're running Virtues, it's not just Aegis (and anything that procs off that), but also Protection and Retaliation. That's equivalent to a shout. With IC, it's applying four defensive boons plus an ally stunbreak.

Yes, that requires investment. So what? Improving your abilities is what the trait system is for.

Yes, elite spec stuff is better... but the price for that is that you're taking an elite spec. Regarding ToC... that still has a cast time before the effects trigger, so it's not as good at immediately responding to a situation. Once you do get it up, it's hard to deal much damage until you switch back out again (unless you're running Shattered Aegis... heh heh), while a well-timed VoC activation can substantially reduce the effect of a big enemy hit on your party without interrupting what you're doing.

It's not something to write home about (without traits), sure. But it's not balanced to be. When push comes to shove, the core guardian virtues are a nice-to-have that can make you a little more effective if you use them well, not the core of the profession like some other profession mechanics are. Nobody's saying that guardians can't have some OTHER awesome thing because they have VoC - ArenaNet recognises that VoC is a relatively small effect and balances accordingly, unlike, say, necromancer shroud, which is a pretty major profession mechanic and which some say has been holding necromancer back because ArenaNet is shy of combining it with effective active defences.

Even if you are getting the protection, retaliation and stability, at 38.5 sec CD traited, VoC is weak. SoC, at 51 sec CD traited, provides the same stuff and 3 sec block to almost all incoming damage. Hardly anyone considers SoC over powered (at least in its current iteration). Also, when you select all the virtue traits that buff VoC you are sacrificing damage potential. Even in power builds Permeating Wrath does strong damage in sPvP.

Again, while VoC CD reduction should be considered (35 base is appropriate in my opinion), VoJ and VoR definitely needs to go back on 16 sec and 25 sec CD base.

Elite Specs are supposed to be inherently better. As in, they're not supposed to fix anything for the core class. So the whole "reduce cd on [core mechanic] becuase [elite mechanic] has a lower cooldown and does more" is kinda moot since that's the whole point. If you're shooting for a cd request it's a matter of comparing apples-to-apples.

As in, what other core class offers AoE Prot, Stab, Stun break, and Aegis in one skill activation? Back in the day VoJ was a truck because of how it refreshed its cooldown on kill. Thus you could pop 25 stacks of might and do AoE Blind if you were going up against trash mobs. The only virue that doesn't have a refresh mechanic is VoJ outside of the Elite. So, looking at the Core Virtues at face value of course they are going to look lackluster, but it's more of a matter of what they can be traited to do is what I'm getting is the reasoning on the CD's.

@savacli.8172 said:Elite Specs are supposed to be inherently better. As in, they're not supposed to fix anything for the core class. So the whole "reduce cd on [core mechanic] becuase [elite mechanic] has a lower cooldown and does more" is kinda moot since that's the whole point. If you're shooting for a cd request it's a matter of comparing apples-to-apples.

No, they were never supposed to be an upgrade, regardless of what ended up happening in the end. And it's not like this is an out-of-the-blue request, all Virtues have received buffs during the HoT era, VoJ was buffed in pvp, VoR got a cd reduction, a bulit-in condi cleanse, and a healing buff in pvp and VoC got a cd reduction.

As in, what other core class offers AoE Prot, Stab, Stun break, and Aegis in one skill activation? Back in the day VoJ was a truck because of how it refreshed its cooldown on kill. Thus you could pop 25 stacks of might and do AoE Blind if you were going up against trash mobs. The only virue that doesn't have a refresh mechanic is VoJ outside of the Elite. So, looking at the Core Virtues at face value of course they are going to look lackluster, but it's more of a matter of what they can be traited to do is what I'm getting is the reasoning on the CD's.

Again, you are looking at them when they are fully traited, and I'm specifically saying that making a useless skill that requires traits to be good is bad design.

And if we play the game of traits, Mesmer can press 1 button to make 5 people invulnerable, reflect projectiles, apply stability, remove a condition and heal, inflict confusion and torment, grant quickness and alacrity. Show me another skill that can do that. And even then, distort is still a very good skill even when untraited.

@RabbitUp.8294 said:And if we play the game of traits, Mesmer can press 1 button to make 5 people invulnerable, reflect projectiles, apply stability, remove a condition and heal, inflict confusion and torment, grant quickness and alacrity. Show me another skill that can do that. And even then, distort is still a very good skill even when untraited.

That would require running four traitlines, which is not allowed, and multiple major traits. Comparatively, VoC grants Aegis+Retaliation+Protection purely through the minors on a single traitline, and adds stability and a stunbreak with a single major trait, leaving a range of options to buff it further (and there are about as many traits that directly or indirectly buff VoC as there are that buff Distortion) or to open up other options. If I imagined a four-traitline guardian, even a core guardian, I could make the list of things VoC does even more impressive (damage through Shattered Aegis, healing through the healing aegis trait, even more aegis through the trait that applies aegis to allies when you block (noting that aegis itself counts as a block, so when the aegis on yourself triggers, that's a block) and Altruistic Healing so you heal from all those boons you're chucking out, and that's just off the top of my head)

Furthermore, most of the things you can buff VoC with through traits apply to allies within the radius. Most of the stuff you cite for mesmer using Distortion is selfish. Without following up with Signet of Inspiration, all they're granting to allies is the distort, stability, and regen.

Finally, VoC still does something, albeit relatively minor, even if you don't use it, while the opportunity cost to using it is that you lose the passive effect until it recharges.

Distortion does nothing for the mesmer unless they activate it. If they do activate it, they've just blown all their illusions, unless they're running Illusionary Reversion (which only grants one on its own) and/or Chronophantasma. And Chronophantasma conflicts with the quickness-on-shatter trait.

Using Distortion without traits and without consuming illusions is a 1s invulnerability. Frankly, I'm not convinced that this is objectively better than Aegis, particularly Aegis to a group.

The problem with our virtues isnt that they are bad, the issue is that you need to trait for them to be good.

@Brutaly.6257 said:The problem with our virtues isnt that they are bad, the issue is that you need to trait for them to be good.

And, to be honest, I don't think that's a bad thing.

It means that you don't have to invest in your profession mechanic to be good. You can choose to focus elsewhere, rather than having your playstyle be defined by the mechanic.

If you look at the other professions, generally speaking the more impactful the profession mechanic is baseline, the more sacrifices they've made to get it. Guardian virtues require traits to have more than a token impact, but that leaves it up to the player to decide how important they will be.

@RabbitUp.8294 said:Base guardian virtues are a joke. Easily the worst profession mechanic in the game.

VoJ is at least decent in pvp, but VoR and VoC? 45s cd for a stack of aegis? Laughable. Mesmers get full invulnerability for that cooldown.

At the cost of DPS, in case you didn't notice illusions are a competing resource shared in cost for all their shatters.

It takes some nerve for the class who has the two apex DPS condi and power builds in PvE, is the backbone of melee frontlines and choice of commander class in WvW, and top dog bunker in sPvP crying about mesmer of all classes.

@draxynnic.3719 said:

@Brutaly.6257 said:The problem with our virtues isnt that they are bad, the issue is that you need to trait for them to be good.

And imo the thing that defines the profession should be innate.

To me its just a sign that guardian is the oldest of the professions and it is outdated. All the others has useful skills with no traiting. That is a sign that anet actually found the proper conceptual level after guardian was ready for launch.

An other tell is the huge gap between FB/dh version and core virtues.

DH healing on resolve and FB trait for keeping passives should be baseline in core. All the core actives should have a huge buff tbh.

Eh...

I disagree on multiple counts there.

First, guardian was in the second half of professions to be revealed (fifth, I think?), and from what I understand, the professions were revealed in the order that ArenaNet considered them to be "ready" (although some of the early revealed professions did have substantial changes after reveal, albeit mostly to skills rather than the 'central mechanic'. There are indications, albeit highly circumstantial, that there was an initial order of reveals that was changed due to some professions being delayed. But guardian is hardly the 'oldest'.

Second, I don't think virtues define the guardian. That's kinda the point. No profession is entirely defined by their profession mechanic - they're also defined by the types of skills they have, their traits, and their overall 'feel'. Core guardian was set up in such a way where you could completely ignore your function keys and still be playing reasonably efficiently. You could play more efficiently if you made good use of your active virtues, sure, but you could just ignore them and benefit from your passives if you wanted, particularly if you didn't take virtue-related traits. (So, zeal/honor/valor, I guess, although as a slightly more advanced usage, you could take Radiance and try to trigger it before scoring a kill.) Through your trait usage, you can adjust just how important your virtues are, with the elite specialisations obviously giving them a substantial boost.

There's a certain 'sliding scale' of how much professions are defined by their profession mechanics. For basic warriors, adrenaline skills are just another weapon skill with a special condition for use. Mesmers are defined by their illusions, with shatters simply being a method of using their illusion: mesmers can often work fine, and in some cases optimally, using shatters sparingly or not at all. For thieves who don't invest traits in steal, steal is just another shadowstep skill with relatively limited utility (it can only teleport to enemies). Finally (note that I haven't put these examples into a specific order), engineers are defined by their kits, not by anything in their toolbelt: if anything, their toolbelt is a partial compensation for some of the sacrifices they've had to make to get kits.

At the other end of the scale, you have elementalists, necromancers, rangers, and now revenants, which are defined to a significant degree by their special mechanics. Elementalists and revenants both give up a degree of customisability in exchange for having more skills on their bar. Rangers are defined by their pets, but the fact that they always have a pet means that their own effectiveness is reduced in order to prevent the combination from being overpowered. Necromancers, up until PoF, were defined by their shroud mechanic - but in order to avoid two deep health bars from being overpowered, necromancers have been barred from having strong healing or significant active defences, which has made them the focus target of choice in any form of PvP for years.

Given that professions are balanced as a package, I don't think having a low-impact profession mechanic is a weakness. Those professions that have high-impact profession mechanics are still making sacrifices for those mechanics even if they're not actually useful for what they're doing. Guardians, however, don't have that handicap. Having a low-impact profession mechanic means that the player can choose exactly how much to invest in the mechanic - if it won't be useful than they can invest little or nothing into it and not be held back by something they're not using, and if it would be useful, they can make that bigger investment.

And with traits, I've got to say... there have been times when being able to press F3 to get stunbreak, stability, aegis and protection for myself and my group has felt pretty darn useful, or being able to press F1 every time an enemy dies for an AoE blind, three stacks of might, and burning. More so than a ranger pet that I'm spending half my energy trying to keep from dying, or a second health bar that I paid for by having virtually no active defences, shatters I can't or shouldn't use, a shadowstep into a location which is just going to get me killed, an adrenaline bar that never fills, or having 20+ skills on my bar when more than half of them are useless for the situation I'm in. Sure, there are definitely times when the profession mechanics of other professions are more useful than what the guardian has, but there are times when they won't be useful at all.

Having your profession mechanic be fairly weak in its baseline operation means that in situations where it's not going to be useful, you can invest nothing in it and still be effective. The stronger the profession mechanic is, and the more you lean on it, the more of a handicap you'll have when, for whatever reason, it isn't useful.

Right now, between core traits and elite specialisations, it actually feels as if guardians have the widest range of customisability in how they use their profession mechanic, and are possibly competing with engineers for most customisable profession overall. Seriously, you've got a wide range of choices for how much you use your profession mechanic from "yeah, I just ignore it and benefit from the passives" to "I have five sets of weapon skills that I can use, two of which I chose freely from one of the widest ranges of weapon choices in the game, and my utility slots are still available to put whatever I like in."

This is a good thing. Now, I'm not saying I'd complain if the recharges got reduced or something like that... but if you really want a major "buff" to the core, untraited virtues, you'd better be asking yourself how much you'd be willing to give up in return. Because the balance hammer will fall in time, and believe me, some of the other professions would kill to have some of the choices we have and not to be held back by their own, more powerful innate mechanics. Mechanics which their professions are balanced according to having, but are sometimes unhelpful or even a handicap.