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Balance: Thief vs Ranger


Eventine.8024

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Simple question: I want to play thief rifle in WvW, but when I battle with any other class, ranger for example, this happens:Ranger has more mobilityRanger has more stealthRanger has more healingRanger has more burst and damage over timeLongbow vs rifle (or short bot): rapid fire kills everything, while rifle and short bow do insignificant damage. Rapid fire keep hitting even if i'm in stealthRanger has invulnerable, ranger has pet, ranger has amazing down skill.Ranger has stabilityThief has boon strip.How this is balanced? Why Dev has this amazing game and still manage to ruin it every patch? Where is WvW alliance system?I play gw2 since betaweekend 1, and it's already 2 years I lost faith in you.

Eventine

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DE and thief in general has far more stealth access than ranger, even if rangers using trappers. Thief also has more overall mobility than ranger, though a ranger can easily keep in lb range of a disengaging thief to down it quickly as it does still have great mobility and range. That said I may actually put rangers mobility over DE specifically if not runny sb for sb5 which in most cases they arnt.Ranger does though have far more healing than DE and far better non stealth related defensive skills.Burst wise a simple knockback and rapid will match a avg DE burst, I'd say burst wise thier close ish with ranger having a more variety of burst skills at its disposal.

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I think you might be playing thief wrong, Rangers having more mobility and stealth than a thief just doesn't seem right.I play both and a thief's shortbow alone gives it more mobility than a ranger, remember that you can use it to quickly climb up some vertical surfaces. Theif is also the stealthing class, Shadows Refuge will give you more consecutive seconds in stealth as one skill than a druid leaving celestial avatar, using longbow 3 and then 4 traps with rune of the trapper.As a thief if you're going one on one without using stealth and mobility against a ranger you're most likely going to loose, something I like to do and think you might benefit from is placing a shadow portal before fights since it can be used as an escape button.

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A good ranger is maybe the hardest matchup for a thief because it has a huge range, rapid fire follows into stealth and it can sustain at melee range for a while and still counterpressure hard. So the usual hit and run strategy won't work against it that easily. Nevertheless thief can build to counter everything. Rifle has a projectile block and smokescreen too. Using these skills properly will get the job done.

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@Solanum.6983 said:I think you might be playing thief wrong, Rangers having more mobility and stealth than a thief just doesn't seem right.I play both and a thief's shortbow alone gives it more mobility than a ranger, remember that you can use it to quickly climb up some vertical surfaces. Theif is also the stealthing class, Shadows Refuge will give you more consecutive seconds in stealth as one skill than a druid leaving celestial avatar, using longbow 4 and then 4 traps with rune of the trapper.As a thief if you're going one on one without using stealth and mobility against a ranger you're most likely going to loose, something I like to do and think you might benefit from is placing a shadow portal before fights since it can be used as an escape button.

On flat ground (which WvW has a lot of), Ranger does have more mobility. More stealth on the other hand, no, not even with trappers rune, but stealth is also pretty useless during a fight. Anyway a thief obviously cant win a 1v1 against a ranger, and in fact ranger is the most dangerous 1v1 to take because of longbows ridiculous range (meaning even if you shortbow out youre at risk for quite some time). But thats just how it goes.

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@Dawdler.8521 said:I think everything you said there is wrong.

Actually, he is only wrong on the stealth thing and half-wrong on the mobility thing (Ranger has more mobility on flat ground, thief wins otherwise). The rest he is spot on. Ranger has more burst by quite a bit, a lot more sustained damage, more stability, certainly way more healing, better defenses and the downed skills of ranger are better in a 1v1 than thieves.

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Ranger has more mobility - noRanger has more stealth - noRanger has more healing - yesRanger has more burst and damage over time - well, depends, but generally yesLongbow vs rifle (or short bot): rapid fire kills everything, while rifle and short bow do insignificant damage. Rapid fire keep hitting even if i'm in stealth - just dodge or smokescreen, but yeah, whole RF cast after target goes into stealth, or 2-3 additional AAs after target goes into stealth are...well, stupid. I didnt know ranger has laser tracking in bow, lol. We went from gw1 where characters were able to sidestep projectiles to gw2 where characters are tracked by unknown force. Kek.Ranger has invulnerable, ranger has pet, ranger has amazing down skill. - well, yesRanger has stability - yesThief has boon strip - and yes

How this is balanced? Why Dev has this amazing game and still manage to ruin it every patch? Where is WvW alliance system?I play gw2 since betaweekend 1, and it's already 2 years I lost faith in you.

Lol, you play this game for 8 years and lose your faith now? You have patience, gotta admit

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Ranger usually does not have more mobility than thief even on flat ground. Most only have GS3, that's one leap every 12s. Only few use Gazelle or Bird in Soulbeast mode for a second leap because smokescale is just hard to give up, and even less go double melee for maximum mobility, because that means giving up any ranged pressure.

However the main difference between thief and ranger mobility isn't about "how much" and more about the type of mobility. Ranger has only leaps and all of those can be countered by CC and immob, so even tho the class has access to pretty decent mobility and stealth, it can be locked down. There is no guaranteed escape/resetting. But thief has instant teleports which do not have the same counters. Locking down a thief is pretty much impossible unless he has already burned all of his cooldowns and still decided to stay in a fight.Paired with on demand stealth it gives thieves the ability to control fights in a way no other class can do - in a game mode where prolonging and resetting fights rarely gets punished, this is very strong.

Ranger is better at brawling and thanks to Sic'Em and long bow range the class also has some of the best tools to kill a thief, because it isn't forced to stick to the latter (which is pretty much impossible) in order to pose a threat

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@"UmbraNoctis.1907" said:Ranger usually does not have more mobility than thief even on flat ground. Most only have GS3, that's one leap every 12s. Only few use Gazelle or Bird in Soulbeast mode for a second leap because smokescale is just hard to give up, and even less go double melee for maximum mobility, because that means giving up any ranged pressure.

However the main difference between thief and ranger mobility isn't about "how much" and more about the type of mobility. Ranger has only leaps and all of those can be countered by CC and immob, so even tho the class has access to pretty decent mobility and stealth, it can be locked down. There is no guaranteed escape/resetting. But thief has instant teleports which do not have the same counters. Locking down a thief is pretty much impossible unless he has already burned all of his cooldowns and still decided to stay in a fight.

Actually, ranger can pretty safely escape from anything too. True, theoretically CC would help, but Ranger has enough stability to get through it, and enough ways to get rid of immob too. If a ranger wants to disengage or reset, he will. Well, unless youre like 5 people.

Paired with on demand stealth it gives thieves the ability to control fights in a way no other class can do - in a game mode where prolonging and resetting fights rarely gets punished, this is very strong.

That is true (though stealth is not actually all that useful here), but the issue is, resetting fights is only as useful as your ability to actually win them. Thief can reset fights over and over, but unless the enemy is significantly worse (or a Deadeye who is hard-countered), they will never win the fight. Ranger can also reset fights over and over, but they can actually win those fights.

Ranger is better at brawling and thanks to Sic'Em and long bow range the class also has some of the best tools to kill a thief, because it isn't forced to stick to the latter (which is pretty much impossible) in order to pose a threat

Its only really longbow that matters, Sic' Em doesnt do much. Even if the thief isnt punished for trying to stealth up, Longbow attacks keep hitting for a couple seconds. Its why Ranger isnt even a class where thief resets over and over into a draw or if he messes up badly a loss, but just a class you run away from as soon as you see it.

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Ranger can not disengage from anything (certainly not from thief) unless successful stealth jukes are involved, especially when running lb.

And how can thief not ever win a fight when they have so many tools to counter whatever their opponent is trying to do (it is not like everyone is running a dedicated dueling or thief counter build)?

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@Solanum.6983 said:I play both and a thief's shortbow alone gives it more mobility than a ranger, remember that you can use it to quickly climb up some vertical surfaces. Theif is also the stealthing class, Shadows Refuge will give you more consecutive seconds in stealth as one skill than a druid leaving celestial avatar, using longbow 4 and then 4 traps with rune of the trapper.

Longbow 4 is a knockback. Longbow 3, Hunter's Shot, is the stealth.

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@"Eventine.8024" said:Simple question: I want to play thief rifle in WvW, but when I battle with any other class, ranger for example, this happens:Ranger has more mobilityRanger has more stealthRanger has more healingRanger has more burst and damage over timeLongbow vs rifle (or short bot): rapid fire kills everything, while rifle and short bow do insignificant damage. Rapid fire keep hitting even if i'm in stealthRanger has invulnerable, ranger has pet, ranger has amazing down skill.Ranger has stabilityThief has boon strip.How this is balanced? Why Dev has this amazing game and still manage to ruin it every patch? Where is WvW alliance system?I play gw2 since betaweekend 1, and it's already 2 years I lost faith in you.

Eventine

I primarily play Deadeye when roaming, and I think you're badly mishandling this fight.

  • "Ranger has more mobility" — You can outrun them in a race. You can 100% run away from them thanks to stealth and vertical jukes. If you can't catch them when they run away, it's mostly because you've already burned cooldowns or because they started with a big gap you can't close fast enough; that's okay. You can also perma-Cripple them in combat.
  • "Ranger has more stealth" — Ranger only has Hunter's Shot unless they're playing a pretty weak trapper build that will get eaten alive by Rifle pokes (they can't Power burst and they can't pull you into the traps like Dragonhunter can). And Druid has stealth on Celestial Avatar but fighting that build means you're not getting hit with massive burst from Soulbeast.
  • "Ranger has more healing" — Correct. You have excellent damage mitigation. Your goal is to hit them more than they hit you.
  • "Ranger has more burst and damage over time" — It's a pew-pew glass cannon build and you're an opportunistic skirmisher with far greater ability to go in and out of fights, and far greater ability to convert downs into kills. Your goal in a 1-on-1 fight is to deny them the ability to land their burst. Your goal in an outnumbered fight is to deny the longbow ranger room to freecast their damage on you.
  • "Longbow vs rifle" — You can reliable get 3-4k out of Skirmisher's Shot without burning cooldowns or building full glass. Dodge or LOS the Rapid Fire. It's OK to Shadowstep or double-dodge if they've also popped One Wolf Pack. If you're in an open-field standoff with the ranger, Sniper's Cover counters many longbow builds.
  • Thief shortbow is a powerful utility weapon, you can use Cluster Bomb to pressure glass cannons but it's not for going toe-to-toe with other builds.
  • "Ranger has invulnerable" — They have a short-term damage soak that still leaves them vulnerable to CC. A bear Soulbeast can stack some more effects like that, but then they've dropped many of the big burst features of Soulbeast. Deadeye is well set up to "wait out" short defensive buffs like this because you can just go into stealth for a few seconds.
  • "Ranger has pet" — You're playing a ranged thief, the pet will rarely hit you.
  • "Amazing down skills" — They die to the normal thief stomp tricks, though. Shouldn't be a problem for you.
  • "Ranger has stability" — Most of your CC is "soft." Stab will soak a Head Shot but it doesn't do anything against Blind or Cripple. Thief mostly don't rely on stun/knockdown to land their bursts.
  • "Thief has boon strip" — Correct.

A competent roaming Ranger isn't going to be a free kill. They can drop you very quickly if they jump you when you're depleted in a team fight. Their sustained ranged DPS is higher than yours. That's because they can't do what you do with instantaneous mobility or massive stealth uptime. If they're specced for burst damage, you very much have the tools to burn through their defensive cooldowns one by one and burst them down once they're out of resources; or to disengage if you've screwed something up and they've got the upper hand.

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@UmbraNoctis.1907 said:Ranger can not disengage from anything (certainly not from thief) unless successful stealth jukes are involved, especially when running lb.

Ranger can disengage from everything. Most classes struggle to keep up with being pushed back/rooted followed by Swoop into Swoop. Thief could, but then thief is cutting his own lifeline, and the ranger can just turn around and chop his head off.

And how can thief not ever win a fight when they have so many tools to counter whatever their opponent is trying to do (it is not like everyone is running a dedicated dueling or thief counter build)?

Because thief doesnt. Sure, thief can kill a lonely zerger, if he catches them without any teammates, but everyone can, zerg builds arent very good at fighting outside of zergs. But any roamer, by virtue of being a roamer, is at least good at dueling. And those fights thief just cant win. Thief has both lower survivability and damage than everyone else, thanks to sPvP balance. Sure they can endlessly reset, but every reset they just get their head kicked in before disengaging.

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I think you're playing thief wrong. I've played play META.jpeg ranger and core condi thief. I have way more mobility and stealth on thief. Ranger may have more burst, but its usually at the cost of having some mobility. And to have stealth comparable to a thief, the ranger has to play a VERY specific build, and even then it isn't as much as DE sooo and DE still has way more mobility...

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@"UmbraNoctis.1907" said:Ranger can not disengage from anything (certainly not from thief) unless successful stealth jukes are involved, especially when running lb.

Ranger can disengage from
everything
. Most classes struggle to keep up with being pushed back/rooted followed by Swoop into Swoop. Thief could, but then thief is cutting his own lifeline, and the ranger can just turn around and chop his head off.

And how can thief not ever win a fight when they have so many tools to counter whatever their opponent is trying to do (it is not like everyone is running a dedicated dueling or thief counter build)?

Because thief doesnt. Sure, thief can kill a lonely zerger, if he catches them without any teammates, but everyone can, zerg builds arent very good at fighting outside of zergs. But any roamer, by virtue of being a roamer, is at least good at dueling. And those fights thief just cant win. Thief has both lower survivability and damage than everyone else, thanks to sPvP balance. Sure they can endlessly reset, but every reset they just get their head kicked in before disengaging.

Having to land skills in oder to escape is never reliable and roots/cc work just as well against the ranger. And all a thief needs to stop a ranger from going anywhere is steal and headshot. Or steal and sword 2. Or steal and another port. Or headshot only if the ranger has no dolyak stance. Shadow Shot. Infiltrator Signet. Sb 5. Thief has tons of ways to stop or catch a running ranger without having to burn major defensive cds like shadowstep. Then there are other rangers. Revs with 1,2k range teleport on low cd + short range ports. War with gs and bull's charge. Mirage with ports and leaps to keep up (as well as ranged cc and boon rip). Necro with ranged cc and corrups to interrupt the leaps. Even D/D ele with lighting flash can be hard to escape from or dh with JI, tho those are rare. In fact, as long there is just a single player fast enough to keep the ranger in combat, anyone can catch up thanks to the mount (which is why stealth in addition to mobility is so valuable). And that's assuming the ranger does not run smokescale.Now don't get me wrong. Ranger (or rather Soulbeast) still has great escape ability, better than most other classes for sure and sometimes you won't catch them. Will depend on exact builds, cds used and initial distance. But thief is just on a whole different level in this regard. And how can the class with the best dmg avoidance be the class with the worst survivability? And dmg of thief doesn't seem that bad either, certainly not worse than everything else, as dealing dmg isn't solely about numbers but also about how hard or easy it is to avoid. And how do your claims " any roamer, by virtue of being a roamer, is at least good at dueling" and "thief can't win fights" fit together when considering that the latter is probably the most common solo roaming class?

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@UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

@UmbraNoctis.1907 said:Ranger can not disengage from anything (certainly not from thief) unless successful stealth jukes are involved, especially when running lb.

Ranger can disengage from
everything
. Most classes struggle to keep up with being pushed back/rooted followed by Swoop into Swoop. Thief could, but then thief is cutting his own lifeline, and the ranger can just turn around and chop his head off.

And how can thief not ever win a fight when they have so many tools to counter whatever their opponent is trying to do (it is not like everyone is running a dedicated dueling or thief counter build)?

Because thief doesnt. Sure, thief can kill a lonely zerger, if he catches them without any teammates, but everyone can, zerg builds arent very good at fighting outside of zergs. But any roamer, by virtue of being a roamer, is at least good at dueling. And those fights thief just cant win. Thief has both lower survivability and damage than everyone else, thanks to sPvP balance. Sure they can endlessly reset, but every reset they just get their head kicked in before disengaging.

Having to land skills in oder to escape is never reliable and roots/cc work just as well against the ranger. And all a thief needs to stop a ranger from going anywhere is steal and headshot. Or steal and sword 2. Or steal and another port. Or headshot only if the ranger has no dolyak stance. Shadow Shot. Infiltrator Signet. Sb 5. Thief has tons of ways to stop or catch a running ranger without having to burn major defensive cds like shadowstep. Then there are other rangers. Revs with 1,2k range teleport on low cd + short range ports. War with gs and bull's charge. Mirage with ports and leaps to keep up (as well as ranged cc and boon rip). Necro with ranged cc and corrups to interrupt the leaps. Even D/D ele with lighting flash can be hard to escape from or dh with JI, tho those are rare. In fact, as long there is just a single player fast enough to keep the ranger in combat, anyone can catch up thanks to the mount (which is why stealth in addition to mobility is so valuable). And that's assuming the ranger does not run smokescale.

You dont have to land them, but if they avoid them, thats a bit of extra time youre gaining. Thieves steal is far too low range (Since most roamers are DD which as 600 range) to even stop your attempt. Same for the others. Now the others could work, but I addressed that. "Thief could, but then thief is cutting his own lifeline, and the ranger can just turn around and chop his head off.". If he invests that much into chasing you, he cant run away. Turn around and he dies. As for the others, by the time Rev gets his second teleport youre already long gone. Warrior might be possibly able to catch you, but theyre also very good at running away. Mirage has no chance, their ports and leaps are generally slow. Necro has no chance, youll be out of his ranged CC before he can get to you.

Now don't get me wrong. Ranger (or rather Soulbeast) still has great escape ability, better than most other classes for sure and sometimes you won't catch them. Will depend on exact builds, cds used and initial distance. But thief is just on a whole different level in this regard. And how can the class with the best dmg avoidance be the class with the worst survivability? And dmg of thief doesn't seem that bad either, certainly not worse than everything else, as dealing dmg isn't solely about numbers but also about how hard or easy it is to avoid. And how do your claims " any roamer, by virtue of being a roamer, is at least good at dueling" and "thief can't win fights" fit together when considering that the latter is probably the most common solo roaming class?

Because thief is in no way, shape or form "the class with the best damage avoidance"? Unless they ran away (in which case yeah, you cant hit them, but they cant hit you), then the most common type of theif in roaming, D/P thief, has no blocks, no invulns, and subpar evades (quite literally just one extra dodge from being a daredevil and daggerstorm if they run that), while having bad healing, low base stats and no damage reduction. S/D thief fares mildly better since it gets at least a decent amount of evades, but its still far below what any other class has. Compared to that Soulbeasts block, smokescale evade, high protection uptime and incredible healing (in the case of Boonbeast) or even sic em snipers mediocre protection uptime and still decent healing are just ridiculous. And thats not even getting into things like warrior or sword weaver.

And damage-wise its pretty bad, and a lot worse than everything else. <5k backstabs, autoattacks that hit like wet noodles, shadowshots that hit for 2k-3k, the only good part is heartseeker, but you never get the enemy that low. And even with the "how easy it is to hit", Rapid Fire is a lot easier to hit, a lot harder to fully avoid, and does a lot more damage than everything Thief does. And its one skill. And youre right, thief is the exception. But thief is what they call a "noobstomper". Thief roamers hunt down worse players they can kill, and run away from anyone of equal or only slightly lower skill. A lame playstyle, but it gets the rewards.

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