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Balance: Thief vs Ranger

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    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    A dodge takes up some time. If it misses theyre in an animation, which is valuable seconds. A dodge will move the enemy towards the ranger quickly who will be slowly crawling backwards as he has to face the target to use lb skills. Missing LB 3 or 4 is always a huge detriment for the ranger. And healing skull muddy terrain. In your previous post you talk about players not being able to get close enough to interrupt the ranger (from like up to 1,2k range) but the ranger can hit them with melee immob somehow? Makes perfectly sense ... not. I believe thats a common pick, no? Not on Boonbeast maybe. And mounts are why its realistic, you can just get out of combat and mount up, and youre gone. Mounts are the reason why everyone can get close to a ranger and mounting up to get away isn't possible with players keeping the ranger in combat - which thief can do 100% of the time and other classes sometimes too. Not even thief can do much to you at that point. And thief will not be able to escape if he tries to chase down a Ranger. Sure, he can avoid one or two skills, but hes dead without a lifeline, and he cant chase without cutting his lifeline. What's that "lifeline" even supposed to be and how can it be in danger when all a thief has to do is interrupt the ranger before he goes anywhere or use sb5 a few times? Shiro Rev really cant, theyll barely be able to match the first dash, let alone the second. Shiro rev can port 3k range within 5s. Ranger can leap 2,4k in the same timeframe. The time between second leap from the ranger and second port from the rev is not enough to get ooc. Especially if the ranger runs after they swapped to glint. Nobody goes anywhere with stuff on cd, this applies to the ranger as much as other classes. Except thief ... As for Mirage, simple. They only have 1 port that is instant and takes you far, 2 ports for total of 2,2k distance and their leaps are way slower. Mirage Thrust carries you 600 units over about 1 second. Ranger gets 1200 units in that same amount of time. And thats not even getting into needing to dodge for it, which they are rather limited in: GS3 has 1k range and takes longer than 1s, bird swoop has 1,2k and is a bit faster, still can't match ports. Mirage Thrust does not take a full second and dodge isn't the only way to gain access to it. Ofc a mirage isn't adviced to burn everything to catch a ranger, and they don't always have to thanks to ranged cc and boon rip

    "How about blinds" not bad, but D/P doesnt get a lot of those, since you can use 2 shadowshots at the start before youre out. 3 Shadow Shots before out of initiative, 4 if stealing to regain initiative. Ofc you don't want to spam it like that, but it is not like players spam skills that you have to blind. Then there are Blinding Powder, Black Powder, possibly Cloaked in Shadow for more blinds. Its still pretty subpar. "Interrupts" D/P thief only gets one from steal, which they engage with Only bad thieves do that, thanks for confirming the obvious. Headshot is too costly, and would clash with blinds as a result. Cheaper than Shadow Shot and absolutely worth to use when able to interrupt key skills. It can even blind when used through smoke field."Stealth" useless for defense. That's why thieves dedicate an entire traitline and multiple skills to this useless defense, and even classes that don't get all the additional benefits love to utilize stealth, right? Try to stealth up mid-combat I do that all the time and it works great, and the Ranger knockback shots you into rapid fire and youre dead. "The ability to constantly dip in and out of melee range" D/P thief does not have that. Dash, Shadow Shot, Heartseeker, Steal, movement increase in stealth, ... - more in combat mobility than anything else. "All with much higher frequency than other classes can use their defensive skills" hahaha, nope. Not even close. Thieves frequence for all of these is pretty kitten low. Holo for example beats them on all of that, and Holo is not even that particularly good of a roamer. Holo spams offensive skills, not defensive ones. Still a pretty kitten good class/roamer, but irrelevant for this discussion. Technically Daredevil has access to block, but you dont have the utility skill space to use it, thats why its not used (it is better than what daredevil has though).

    Only one extra dodge for the entire fight. Multiple ways to regain endurance "Stolen protection" you have to basically take on mesmer, or be able to survive long enough to steal again (spoilers: You dont) Well yes, YOU don't, i figured that much by now. The 33% reduction isnt used for 3 reasons. First, you have to give up some of what little damage you have. Second, its specifically tied to revealed. Gaining effectively protection at the start of a fight isnt terribly useful, and you dont want to stealth mid-combat because youll take more damage than protection will ever stop. Even with shadow rejuvenation thief healing is far below average. "Evade on SB", if youre on SB youre not a threat. SB 2 does hit pretty hard and if the autoattack bounces eg. ranger-pet-ranger it also deals a lot of dmg. Besides if youre in SB anyway, you just use shortbow 5. No point wasting initiative on an evade to only be killed. "Low base health gets compensated by marauder gear, base armor is the same as ranger's" which would give up some of theives already extremely low damage. Also, Ranger uses Marauders gear. The health advantage is still way in favour of Ranger.

    No? Stacking health never has a diminishing value. Its health. Its always useful. Health is useful as long it can be filled back up. More health is only useful with more healing eg in grps, for solo 18-20k is more than enough and other stats become more valuable at this point (with necro being an exception due to how shroud works). Ranger has access to de facto invulnerability No, dmg immunity and invuln are not the same and it's not just condis which make a difference. (doesnt help vs condis but hey, condis destroy thief as well). But you are right, its not terribly common. "Heals can be interrupted by steal" steal is used at the start to push damage usually. And headshot isnt used. So not really. "Protection and stab can be stolen" same as before, steal is used at the start. See above, repeating nonsense does not make it less nonsensical. Fair point on the smokescale though. Not that Ranger needs that evade to get ahead. Boonbeast still bursts harder than thief does. Weaver while tanky still does a lot more damage than thief does. Warrior is stronger than thief in pretty much every regard other than non-horizontal mobility. More damage, better survivability, better CC, better utility. Seriously there is a reason why Warrior was subpar, but playable in sPvPs 2v2 mode, and Theif was 100% unplayable (mobility didnt matter in that gamemode, it was only about fighting).

    You dont need to be hit by the full channel. Besides, not much you can do if youre knocked back. Yea, totally can't stunbreak or steal ... Avoiding half of it will put its damage still above backstab damage (5k vs what typically ends up being around 4k. Again, thats without Sic' Em). Hardly. And that part is absolutely not true. There is nothing you can avoid via stealth (other than living, I suppose). Everything can be avoided via stealth except channels which already started casting or aoes if you deliberately step into them. Dieing in stealth is 99% of the time a l2p issue. And they absolutely are extremely low damage given their bad frequency, and how easy it is to react to shadowshot. You get one backstab at the start, and then maybe one every 25 seconds. Thats bad. You get a shadowshot every 5 seconds, but besides being easy to dodge, its also literally your entire damage at that point. All youve got left are your autos, that hit like a noodle. And of course Maul will always hit for more. It has a higher coefficient, and thats not even getting into the better damage multipliers Ranger has nowadays. Ranger will always hit way harder. Maul coef: 1,36 Backstab coeff: 1,8. After modifiers (Sic'Em excluded) it usually results in similar dmg when comparing average SA Marauder thief and average Zerk/Mara SlB

  • Strider.7849Strider.7849 Member ✭✭✭

    @Eventine.8024 said:
    Simple question: I want to play thief rifle in WvW, but when I battle with any other class, ranger for example, this happens:
    Ranger has more mobility
    Ranger has more stealth
    Ranger has more healing
    Ranger has more burst and damage over time
    Longbow vs rifle (or short bot): rapid fire kills everything, while rifle and short bow do insignificant damage. Rapid fire keep hitting even if i'm in stealth
    Ranger has invulnerable, ranger has pet, ranger has amazing down skill.
    Ranger has stability
    Thief has boon strip
    .
    How this is balanced? Why Dev has this amazing game and still manage to ruin it every patch? Where is WvW alliance system?
    I play gw2 since betaweekend 1, and it's already 2 years I lost faith in you.

    Eventine

    Just correcting a few things here for you as an experienced pvper and player since launch:

    • Thief has more mobility on its meta build and access to even more if needed. Significantly more. Steal, sword 2 port, shadow shot, infiltrators signet, shortbow 5, 180 + rifle 4, shadow step. Just to name a few options. Ranger has greatsword 3, bird or deer or canine leap or smoke assault (only one can be used and with soulbeast), sword leap, druid staff 3.

    • I won't even go into how much stealth thief has or it's quick access to it. Instead let's look at rangers, longbow 3 which is used for reposition (only lasts 3 seconds), smoke scale field (must be blasted in order to use, ranger has very little access to blasts), Druid's stealth on exiting celestial avatar IF you traited for it. Not sure how you think this is more than thief.

    • ranger has more healing. Yes, but it's also more susceptible to incoming damage than thief. Thief has less healing on its meta builds because if they had more they'd be literally immortal. A properly played thief will only die if it overextended/gets greedy. They choose their fights and can easily nope the kitten out if it goes south.

    • Thief has more burst this isn't even debatable after the nerfs to ranger. There is still commander sniping builds in play.

    • rapid fire has been heavily nerfed. In order to output killable damage the ranger has to play glass or mostly glass cannon damage. Thief has a lower health pool and is balanced around its mobility, burst, and disengage. If you eat the full rapid fire you'll die. You can counter this with an interrupt, bandits defense to block, using vertical mobility/terrain/objects, etc. Channelled abilities have always been strong against thief.

    • ranger is balanced around its in combat capabilities just as thief is. Ranger isn't full ranged, it's designed around floating in and out of melee when played properly. It doesn't have the disengage a thief has, but it does have evades, blocks, and high mobility/small access to stealth. Fun fact, a power Herald can keep up with and kill a soulbeast with all its mobility skills taken.

    • Thief has boon strip? Not sure how this is a negative against ranger.

    Conclusion, I'm not knocking thief in all this, but your limited experience on one suggests to me that you may be better off with ranger. If it's so powerful maybe you're just better with that class? I guarantee you'd change your tune if you play it long enough.

  • anduriell.6280anduriell.6280 Member ✭✭✭✭

    nah as 1v1 thief is vastly superior to ranger. Higher mobility, burst and sustain. Sets like marauders removes the inherent weaknes of full glass builds, as such a thief should never die to a ranger as no single burst is enough to defeat a thief before it can go into stealth, teleport and reset the fight.

    Thief has very powefull condibuilds when ranger does not have any suitable condi build which works outside of the meme traiblazzers druid.

    thief also has a semi-accepted zerg build with the staff DD and portal, while ranger is still strugling to get one and is still not wanted in squads. When i mean not wanted i mean is activelly discouraged and bullied in WvW by commanders and other players.
    Meme immob ranger is not still recogniced as useful build outside of very niche ganking guilds.

    So in resume thief is superior than ranger, more wanted than ranger, and it hasn't to deal with the buggy AI.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @anduriell.6280 said:
    nah as 1v1 thief is vastly superior to ranger. Higher mobility, burst and sustain. Sets like marauders removes the inherent weaknes of full glass builds, as such a thief should never die to a ranger as no single burst is enough to defeat a thief before it can go into stealth, teleport and reset the fight.

    Thief has very powefull condibuilds when ranger does not have any suitable condi build which works outside of the meme traiblazzers druid.

    thief also has a semi-accepted zerg build with the staff DD and portal, while ranger is still strugling to get one and is still not wanted in squads. When i mean not wanted i mean is activelly discouraged and bullied in WvW by commanders and other players.
    Meme immob ranger is not still recogniced as useful build outside of very niche ganking guilds.

    So in resume thief is superior than ranger, more wanted than ranger, and it hasn't to deal with the buggy AI.

    U cant be serious, can u? I mean better at 1v1, burst and sustain? U literally have zero clue man lmao. A ranger of equal skill should destroy a thief 1v1 and has far more burst and sustain options than a thief could dream off. If ranger had thiefs mobility in conquest it literally replace thieves and provide more. In wvw theres more rangers than most other classes even though the suck in zergs. Man the things people think do to bias omg.

    I mean are you surprised? "Thief has higher burst". Yeah the class whose hardest hitting skill tops out at 5k bursts harder than the class whose rapid fire can hit upwards of 10k. Or how about "Theif has higher sustain", despite having far less sustain. About the only part he got right is that thief has the better condi build. Barely.

  • ASP.8093ASP.8093 Member ✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    I mean are you surprised? "Thief has higher burst". Yeah the class whose hardest hitting skill tops out at 5k bursts harder than the class whose rapid fire can hit upwards of 10k. Or how about "Theif has higher sustain", despite having far less sustain. About the only part he got right is that thief has the better condi build. Barely.

    Thief's hardest-hitting skills are sub-25 Heartseeker or Death's Judgement, not normie Backstab.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 19, 2020

    @ASP.8093 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    I mean are you surprised? "Thief has higher burst". Yeah the class whose hardest hitting skill tops out at 5k bursts harder than the class whose rapid fire can hit upwards of 10k. Or how about "Theif has higher sustain", despite having far less sustain. About the only part he got right is that thief has the better condi build. Barely.

    Thief's hardest-hitting skills are sub-25 Heartseeker or Death's Judgement, not normie Backstab

    Heartseeker only hits very slightly harder. Its still around 5k. DJ would hit for more, but you never land a DJ on an enemy who isnt AFK. Though even DJ hits a lot less hard than Rapid Fire. Not to mention both of these are finishers. You dont burst with them.

  • reddie.5861reddie.5861 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Strider.7849 said:

    • Thief has more burst this isn't even debatable after the nerfs to ranger. There is still commander sniping builds in play.

    hmm not sure about this..
    played thief for long time and ranger aswell (pretty much only 2 i play)
    ranger on more deffensive stats has far better burst then a thief.
    i mean people will say im crying but thief burst is so sad right now..

    mean while on my ranger who is using durability runes and some armor (dunno which but no zerk stats at all) is doing far better dmg wise.
    tbh i dont really mind the nerfs ill play thief till i quit but thief isnt as it used to be.

    they nerfed staff thief well nerfed not rly increased the ini use on staff 5 which was not really needed so that zerg build ur on about is not that good anymore u can do 2 vaults and ur out of ini. so thief is in same state as ranger useless and probably next nerf is inc again.
    cus thief is not useless in sPvP and since wvw takes alot of kitten from sPvP they probably get nerfed again for nothing rly.

  • @reddie.5861 said:

    @Eventine.8024 said:
    Simple question: I want to play thief rifle in WvW, but when I battle with any other class, ranger for example, this happens:
    Ranger has more mobility
    Ranger has more stealth
    Ranger has more healing
    Ranger has more burst and damage over time
    Longbow vs rifle (or short bot): rapid fire kills everything, while rifle and short bow do insignificant damage. Rapid fire keep hitting even if i'm in stealth
    Ranger has invulnerable, ranger has pet, ranger has amazing down skill.
    Ranger has stability
    Thief has boon strip
    .
    How this is balanced? Why Dev has this amazing game and still manage to ruin it every patch? Where is WvW alliance system?
    I play gw2 since betaweekend 1, and it's already 2 years I lost faith in you.

    Eventine

    ranger has more stealth? how? a blast and longbow 3? and maybe if u play druid? or use trapper runes? basically not tru.

    Not even then. Ranger can't permastealth.

  • ASP.8093ASP.8093 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 19, 2020

    I feel like there's a lot of hyperbole going around, especially when it comes to anything to do with thieves. Thieves are worthless! Thieves are OP! Thieves can only tickle another player! Thieves are monsters who will eat your children with a single Backstab!

    The reality is… a lot more mundane. No competent ranger is a free kill for a thief, because their build includes strong ranged burst/pressure and a good deal of short-term defense and sustain; it's a fairly strong class with good roaming potential. But thieves have exceptional mobility, decent burst compression if you build for it, and they're one of the best classes for countering glass-cannon builds even if they're not currently the hardest-hitting of the glass cannons themselves.

    (Personally, I value the flexiblity enough that I'd much rather play thief.)

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @reddie.5861 said:

    @Strider.7849 said:

    • Thief has more burst this isn't even debatable after the nerfs to ranger. There is still commander sniping builds in play.

    hmm not sure about this..
    played thief for long time and ranger aswell (pretty much only 2 i play)
    ranger on more deffensive stats has far better burst then a thief.
    i mean people will say im crying but thief burst is so sad right now..

    mean while on my ranger who is using durability runes and some armor (dunno which but no zerk stats at all) is doing far better dmg wise.
    tbh i dont really mind the nerfs ill play thief till i quit but thief isnt as it used to be.

    they nerfed staff thief well nerfed not rly increased the ini use on staff 5 which was not really needed so that zerg build ur on about is not that good anymore u can do 2 vaults and ur out of ini. so thief is in same state as ranger useless and probably next nerf is inc again.
    cus thief is not useless in sPvP and since wvw takes alot of kitten from sPvP they probably get nerfed again for nothing rly.

    I have a screenshot of a thief dealing upward of 10k+ dmg between a backstab and a HS followed by around 8k+ more dmg soon after.

    In the screenshot I was using an experimental build, made for the sake of testing and I was using : 2.9k toughness = 4k armor....why do thief players keep lying so blatantly? ..."thief burst is sad right now"....please stop it....there are dozens of videos out there proving you wrong

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @reddie.5861 said:

    @Strider.7849 said:

    • Thief has more burst this isn't even debatable after the nerfs to ranger. There is still commander sniping builds in play.

    hmm not sure about this..
    played thief for long time and ranger aswell (pretty much only 2 i play)
    ranger on more deffensive stats has far better burst then a thief.
    i mean people will say im crying but thief burst is so sad right now..

    mean while on my ranger who is using durability runes and some armor (dunno which but no zerk stats at all) is doing far better dmg wise.
    tbh i dont really mind the nerfs ill play thief till i quit but thief isnt as it used to be.

    they nerfed staff thief well nerfed not rly increased the ini use on staff 5 which was not really needed so that zerg build ur on about is not that good anymore u can do 2 vaults and ur out of ini. so thief is in same state as ranger useless and probably next nerf is inc again.
    cus thief is not useless in sPvP and since wvw takes alot of kitten from sPvP they probably get nerfed again for nothing rly.

    I have a screenshot of a thief dealing upward of 10k+ dmg between a backstab and a HS followed by around 8k+ more dmg soon after.

    Do you mean 10k with a backstab + HS, or either backstab or HS? The former, sure, if youre low hp, possible. The latter, unless youre a glass and theyre playing a very bad build, is not possible.

    In the screenshot I was using an experimental build, made for the sake of testing and I was using : 2.9k toughness = 4k armor....why do thief players keep lying so blatantly? ..."thief burst is sad right now"....please stop it....there are dozens of videos out there proving you wrong

    Yeah ok with 4k armour there is absolutely no way the thief got 10k+ damage from a single backstab without shenanigans. Im not even sure its possible with shenanigans. And no, there are dozens of videos showing that thief burst is indeed sad. Here we have a frontstab on a squishy thief. 2k. A backstab would do 4k. So how exactly do you think a thief wouldve backstabbed for over 10k on a 4k armour guy? With 4k armour youd take half the damage, so unless the thief somehow miraculously got a 400% damage boost from somewhere, Im gonna call BS.

  • SpellOfIniquity.1780SpellOfIniquity.1780 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 20, 2020

    @anduriell.6280 said:
    nah as 1v1 thief is vastly superior to ranger. Higher mobility, burst and sustain. Sets like marauders removes the inherent weaknes of full glass builds, as such a thief should never die to a ranger as no single burst is enough to defeat a thief before it can go into stealth, teleport and reset the fight.

    Thief has very powefull condibuilds when ranger does not have any suitable condi build which works outside of the meme traiblazzers druid.

    thief also has a semi-accepted zerg build with the staff DD and portal, while ranger is still strugling to get one and is still not wanted in squads. When i mean not wanted i mean is activelly discouraged and bullied in WvW by commanders and other players.
    Meme immob ranger is not still recogniced as useful build outside of very niche ganking guilds.

    So in resume thief is superior than ranger, more wanted than ranger, and it hasn't to deal with the buggy AI.

    Speaking from a WvW perspective, no. Ranger is one of the best 1v1ers out there. Thief has the ability to control whether it wants to take or continue or a fight because of its mobility, that doesn't mean it's superior. If you force a Thief in to an unfavorable location where it cannot hard kite it becomes a whole lot less of a threat. Granted, if you're playing Longbow Ranger, the same can be said of you, but there are numerous durable brawler type Ranger builds that are strong in those situations and some of the best (not the best) dueling builds among any class.

    I would say Ranger has a slight advantage over Thief in a 1v1 if properly played/built, but the difference isn't tremendous. Ranger can continue to pressure a Thief while it's trying to kite, assuming the Ranger is using Longbow and/or has other forms of mobility available, which is one of the Thiefs biggest advantages against other classes. Again assuming the proper build, Ranger is also better at resustaining itself in a prolonged fight and more likely to wear the Thief down or force it to disengage.

    Just remember that running is not winning, it's giving up. If someone OOC's on you (this goes for anything, not just Thief) the best thing for you to do is to move the opposite direction as soon as you see them trying to drop combat on you. If you can't chase them and you know it, moving away from them will drop combat for the both of you more quickly and you can choose either to Mount up and take the draw, or allow your health to reset and restart the fight when the player likely tries to reengage you. Chasing someone is almost never a good idea, especially a Thief. You just burn skills doing it and risk getting outnumbered as well.

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  • Kadsik.9281Kadsik.9281 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:
    I think everything you said there is wrong.

    I'm guessing you play ranger right? OP's post feels a whiny, but for the most part I do not think he's wrong, atleast with damage and healing.

  • ASP.8093ASP.8093 Member ✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    Here we have a frontstab on a squishy thief. 2k. A backstab would do 4k.

    You could get those numbers up a good bit higher if you weren't playing full Mara with Vampirism runes.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ASP.8093 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    Here we have a frontstab on a squishy thief. 2k. A backstab would do 4k.

    You could get those numbers up a good bit higher if you weren't playing full Mara with Vampirism runes.

    Not by much. Youd get to 5k, but at the risk of becoming squishy. Its still not good.

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @reddie.5861 said:

    @Strider.7849 said:

    • Thief has more burst this isn't even debatable after the nerfs to ranger. There is still commander sniping builds in play.

    hmm not sure about this..
    played thief for long time and ranger aswell (pretty much only 2 i play)
    ranger on more deffensive stats has far better burst then a thief.
    i mean people will say im crying but thief burst is so sad right now..

    mean while on my ranger who is using durability runes and some armor (dunno which but no zerk stats at all) is doing far better dmg wise.
    tbh i dont really mind the nerfs ill play thief till i quit but thief isnt as it used to be.

    they nerfed staff thief well nerfed not rly increased the ini use on staff 5 which was not really needed so that zerg build ur on about is not that good anymore u can do 2 vaults and ur out of ini. so thief is in same state as ranger useless and probably next nerf is inc again.
    cus thief is not useless in sPvP and since wvw takes alot of kitten from sPvP they probably get nerfed again for nothing rly.

    I have a screenshot of a thief dealing upward of 10k+ dmg between a backstab and a HS followed by around 8k+ more dmg soon after.

    Do you mean 10k with a backstab + HS, or either backstab or HS? The former, sure, if youre low hp, possible. The latter, unless youre a glass and theyre playing a very bad build, is not possible.

    In the screenshot I was using an experimental build, made for the sake of testing and I was using : 2.9k toughness = 4k armor....why do thief players keep lying so blatantly? ..."thief burst is sad right now"....please stop it....there are dozens of videos out there proving you wrong

    Yeah ok with 4k armour there is absolutely no way the thief got 10k+ damage from a single backstab without shenanigans. Im not even sure its possible with shenanigans. And no, there are dozens of videos showing that thief burst is indeed sad. Here we have a frontstab on a squishy thief. 2k. A backstab would do 4k. So how exactly do you think a thief wouldve backstabbed for over 10k on a 4k armour guy? With 4k armour youd take half the damage, so unless the thief somehow miraculously got a 400% damage boost from somewhere, Im gonna call BS.

    I have clearly stated 10k dmg as a combination of a backstab and a Heartseeker while the target has 4k armor...I was full HP

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • knite.1542knite.1542 Member ✭✭✭

    Ranger doesn't necessarily have more mobility than a thief (obviously it depends on both players builds), they just have great mobility plus really good range if they are using longbow. If you are not a very experienced thief, fighting a good ranger will be very difficult.

    Takes practice.

    If your team wins it's because of everyone else. If your team loses, blame the thief.
    ranger is OP but holo is more OP so its fine
    Why do this matter at all, you have people asking you why play so bad as fractal god?
    If they would pull that kitten on me, i would sue instantly. And i have enough time and money to finish that.
    Balance? More like a bunch of random nerfs done by interns.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kadsik.9281 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:
    I think everything you said there is wrong.

    I'm guessing you play ranger right? OP's post feels a whiny, but for the most part I do not think he's wrong, atleast with damage and healing.

    I have 85 hours on my only ranger character over the last 2000 days. Roughly half of that is world completion. I have 7900 hours on my account.

    So guess how close to correct you are.

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  • reddie.5861reddie.5861 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @reddie.5861 said:

    @Strider.7849 said:

    • Thief has more burst this isn't even debatable after the nerfs to ranger. There is still commander sniping builds in play.

    hmm not sure about this..
    played thief for long time and ranger aswell (pretty much only 2 i play)
    ranger on more deffensive stats has far better burst then a thief.
    i mean people will say im crying but thief burst is so sad right now..

    mean while on my ranger who is using durability runes and some armor (dunno which but no zerk stats at all) is doing far better dmg wise.
    tbh i dont really mind the nerfs ill play thief till i quit but thief isnt as it used to be.

    they nerfed staff thief well nerfed not rly increased the ini use on staff 5 which was not really needed so that zerg build ur on about is not that good anymore u can do 2 vaults and ur out of ini. so thief is in same state as ranger useless and probably next nerf is inc again.
    cus thief is not useless in sPvP and since wvw takes alot of kitten from sPvP they probably get nerfed again for nothing rly.

    I have a screenshot of a thief dealing upward of 10k+ dmg between a backstab and a HS followed by around 8k+ more dmg soon after.

    Do you mean 10k with a backstab + HS, or either backstab or HS? The former, sure, if youre low hp, possible. The latter, unless youre a glass and theyre playing a very bad build, is not possible.

    In the screenshot I was using an experimental build, made for the sake of testing and I was using : 2.9k toughness = 4k armor....why do thief players keep lying so blatantly? ..."thief burst is sad right now"....please stop it....there are dozens of videos out there proving you wrong

    Yeah ok with 4k armour there is absolutely no way the thief got 10k+ damage from a single backstab without shenanigans. Im not even sure its possible with shenanigans. And no, there are dozens of videos showing that thief burst is indeed sad. Here we have a frontstab on a squishy thief. 2k. A backstab would do 4k. So how exactly do you think a thief wouldve backstabbed for over 10k on a 4k armour guy? With 4k armour youd take half the damage, so unless the thief somehow miraculously got a 400% damage boost from somewhere, Im gonna call BS.

    I have clearly stated 10k dmg as a combination of a backstab and a Heartseeker while the target has 4k armor...I was full HP

    5k backstab>? while your maul can hit easily for 8k? and then u do 5 and maul again? and u have beast abilities and go on thief is in a sad state, and i dont really care but if u think thief is what it used to be in core days then keep dreaming.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @reddie.5861 said:

    @Strider.7849 said:

    • Thief has more burst this isn't even debatable after the nerfs to ranger. There is still commander sniping builds in play.

    hmm not sure about this..
    played thief for long time and ranger aswell (pretty much only 2 i play)
    ranger on more deffensive stats has far better burst then a thief.
    i mean people will say im crying but thief burst is so sad right now..

    mean while on my ranger who is using durability runes and some armor (dunno which but no zerk stats at all) is doing far better dmg wise.
    tbh i dont really mind the nerfs ill play thief till i quit but thief isnt as it used to be.

    they nerfed staff thief well nerfed not rly increased the ini use on staff 5 which was not really needed so that zerg build ur on about is not that good anymore u can do 2 vaults and ur out of ini. so thief is in same state as ranger useless and probably next nerf is inc again.
    cus thief is not useless in sPvP and since wvw takes alot of kitten from sPvP they probably get nerfed again for nothing rly.

    I have a screenshot of a thief dealing upward of 10k+ dmg between a backstab and a HS followed by around 8k+ more dmg soon after.

    Do you mean 10k with a backstab + HS, or either backstab or HS? The former, sure, if youre low hp, possible. The latter, unless youre a glass and theyre playing a very bad build, is not possible.

    In the screenshot I was using an experimental build, made for the sake of testing and I was using : 2.9k toughness = 4k armor....why do thief players keep lying so blatantly? ..."thief burst is sad right now"....please stop it....there are dozens of videos out there proving you wrong

    Yeah ok with 4k armour there is absolutely no way the thief got 10k+ damage from a single backstab without shenanigans. Im not even sure its possible with shenanigans. And no, there are dozens of videos showing that thief burst is indeed sad. Here we have a frontstab on a squishy thief. 2k. A backstab would do 4k. So how exactly do you think a thief wouldve backstabbed for over 10k on a 4k armour guy? With 4k armour youd take half the damage, so unless the thief somehow miraculously got a 400% damage boost from somewhere, Im gonna call BS.

    I have clearly stated 10k dmg as a combination of a backstab and a Heartseeker while the target has 4k armor...I was full HP

    It was many things, "clearly" it was not. But this is at least possible .... with shenanigans. Not in any realistic scenario, of course, in a realistic scenario youd take 2k from backstab and 1k from heartseeker. I assume that the Thief is playing something like DA/SA/CS (which is a really bad build since you dont even have trickery), he was at full hp, had pre-stacked might somehow, used assassins signet, and you had vuln or condis on you somehow. Otherwise, its still not possible.

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @reddie.5861 said:

    @Strider.7849 said:

    • Thief has more burst this isn't even debatable after the nerfs to ranger. There is still commander sniping builds in play.

    hmm not sure about this..
    played thief for long time and ranger aswell (pretty much only 2 i play)
    ranger on more deffensive stats has far better burst then a thief.
    i mean people will say im crying but thief burst is so sad right now..

    mean while on my ranger who is using durability runes and some armor (dunno which but no zerk stats at all) is doing far better dmg wise.
    tbh i dont really mind the nerfs ill play thief till i quit but thief isnt as it used to be.

    they nerfed staff thief well nerfed not rly increased the ini use on staff 5 which was not really needed so that zerg build ur on about is not that good anymore u can do 2 vaults and ur out of ini. so thief is in same state as ranger useless and probably next nerf is inc again.
    cus thief is not useless in sPvP and since wvw takes alot of kitten from sPvP they probably get nerfed again for nothing rly.

    I have a screenshot of a thief dealing upward of 10k+ dmg between a backstab and a HS followed by around 8k+ more dmg soon after.

    Do you mean 10k with a backstab + HS, or either backstab or HS? The former, sure, if youre low hp, possible. The latter, unless youre a glass and theyre playing a very bad build, is not possible.

    In the screenshot I was using an experimental build, made for the sake of testing and I was using : 2.9k toughness = 4k armor....why do thief players keep lying so blatantly? ..."thief burst is sad right now"....please stop it....there are dozens of videos out there proving you wrong

    Yeah ok with 4k armour there is absolutely no way the thief got 10k+ damage from a single backstab without shenanigans. Im not even sure its possible with shenanigans. And no, there are dozens of videos showing that thief burst is indeed sad. Here we have a frontstab on a squishy thief. 2k. A backstab would do 4k. So how exactly do you think a thief wouldve backstabbed for over 10k on a 4k armour guy? With 4k armour youd take half the damage, so unless the thief somehow miraculously got a 400% damage boost from somewhere, Im gonna call BS.

    I have clearly stated 10k dmg as a combination of a backstab and a Heartseeker while the target has 4k armor...I was full HP

    It was many things, "clearly" it was not. But this is at least possible .... with shenanigans. Not in any realistic scenario, of course, in a realistic scenario youd take 2k from backstab and 1k from heartseeker. I assume that the Thief is playing something like DA/SA/CS (which is a really bad build since you dont even have trickery), he was at full hp, had pre-stacked might somehow, used assassins signet, and you had vuln or condis on you somehow. Otherwise, its still not possible.

    There’s a couple of important things here. The first strike is 6k. That’s pretty heavy for a thief using sPvP stats but I’d buy those numbers based on WvW stats and getting some significant vulnerability onto the target.

    The second strike is only for 2.8k, which is not that significant for HS (still high HP so the modifier is pretty low). The combo of an Air sigil and some life steal off food is what pushes this over 10k for the two skills. (Nearly 1k off the sigil is 10% of the damage).

    Now, with 18k HP, that pushes the ranger below 50% and the next Heartseeker hits a bit harder. The last HS is below 25% and hits the hardest.

    If I had to guess with the self-reported stats the thief is running a very one shot oriented build. Backstab, HS x3. Likely a very quick sequence because there is probably a time limit to how long the damage is that high (or the thief is running very glassy). On a lower toughness opponent they probably would have hit a 8k+ BS and a 4k+ base HS. Again that’s with WvW stats where base power can be much higher.

    This is why people should record their gameplay and then slow down the video so they can see everything that hits them. Recording software can passively run in the background so you just hit record when something interesting happened and you want to figure it out.

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @reddie.5861 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @reddie.5861 said:

    @Strider.7849 said:

    • Thief has more burst this isn't even debatable after the nerfs to ranger. There is still commander sniping builds in play.

    hmm not sure about this..
    played thief for long time and ranger aswell (pretty much only 2 i play)
    ranger on more deffensive stats has far better burst then a thief.
    i mean people will say im crying but thief burst is so sad right now..

    mean while on my ranger who is using durability runes and some armor (dunno which but no zerk stats at all) is doing far better dmg wise.
    tbh i dont really mind the nerfs ill play thief till i quit but thief isnt as it used to be.

    they nerfed staff thief well nerfed not rly increased the ini use on staff 5 which was not really needed so that zerg build ur on about is not that good anymore u can do 2 vaults and ur out of ini. so thief is in same state as ranger useless and probably next nerf is inc again.
    cus thief is not useless in sPvP and since wvw takes alot of kitten from sPvP they probably get nerfed again for nothing rly.

    I have a screenshot of a thief dealing upward of 10k+ dmg between a backstab and a HS followed by around 8k+ more dmg soon after.

    Do you mean 10k with a backstab + HS, or either backstab or HS? The former, sure, if youre low hp, possible. The latter, unless youre a glass and theyre playing a very bad build, is not possible.

    In the screenshot I was using an experimental build, made for the sake of testing and I was using : 2.9k toughness = 4k armor....why do thief players keep lying so blatantly? ..."thief burst is sad right now"....please stop it....there are dozens of videos out there proving you wrong

    Yeah ok with 4k armour there is absolutely no way the thief got 10k+ damage from a single backstab without shenanigans. Im not even sure its possible with shenanigans. And no, there are dozens of videos showing that thief burst is indeed sad. Here we have a frontstab on a squishy thief. 2k. A backstab would do 4k. So how exactly do you think a thief wouldve backstabbed for over 10k on a 4k armour guy? With 4k armour youd take half the damage, so unless the thief somehow miraculously got a 400% damage boost from somewhere, Im gonna call BS.

    I have clearly stated 10k dmg as a combination of a backstab and a Heartseeker while the target has 4k armor...I was full HP

    5k backstab>? while your maul can hit easily for 8k? and then u do 5 and maul again? and u have beast abilities and go on thief is in a sad state, and i dont really care but if u think thief is what it used to be in core days then keep dreaming.

    8k maul while using that experimental build in that screenshot?...No way in hell you'd reach that high unless you run an equally glassy build like the thief like WS/MM and soulbeast with sic'em and some luck...but at that point you'd receive upward of 9k dmg bursts from anything out there

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @reddie.5861 said:

    @Strider.7849 said:

    • Thief has more burst this isn't even debatable after the nerfs to ranger. There is still commander sniping builds in play.

    hmm not sure about this..
    played thief for long time and ranger aswell (pretty much only 2 i play)
    ranger on more deffensive stats has far better burst then a thief.
    i mean people will say im crying but thief burst is so sad right now..

    mean while on my ranger who is using durability runes and some armor (dunno which but no zerk stats at all) is doing far better dmg wise.
    tbh i dont really mind the nerfs ill play thief till i quit but thief isnt as it used to be.

    they nerfed staff thief well nerfed not rly increased the ini use on staff 5 which was not really needed so that zerg build ur on about is not that good anymore u can do 2 vaults and ur out of ini. so thief is in same state as ranger useless and probably next nerf is inc again.
    cus thief is not useless in sPvP and since wvw takes alot of kitten from sPvP they probably get nerfed again for nothing rly.

    I have a screenshot of a thief dealing upward of 10k+ dmg between a backstab and a HS followed by around 8k+ more dmg soon after.

    Do you mean 10k with a backstab + HS, or either backstab or HS? The former, sure, if youre low hp, possible. The latter, unless youre a glass and theyre playing a very bad build, is not possible.

    In the screenshot I was using an experimental build, made for the sake of testing and I was using : 2.9k toughness = 4k armor....why do thief players keep lying so blatantly? ..."thief burst is sad right now"....please stop it....there are dozens of videos out there proving you wrong

    Yeah ok with 4k armour there is absolutely no way the thief got 10k+ damage from a single backstab without shenanigans. Im not even sure its possible with shenanigans. And no, there are dozens of videos showing that thief burst is indeed sad. Here we have a frontstab on a squishy thief. 2k. A backstab would do 4k. So how exactly do you think a thief wouldve backstabbed for over 10k on a 4k armour guy? With 4k armour youd take half the damage, so unless the thief somehow miraculously got a 400% damage boost from somewhere, Im gonna call BS.

    I have clearly stated 10k dmg as a combination of a backstab and a Heartseeker while the target has 4k armor...I was full HP

    It was many things, "clearly" it was not. But this is at least possible .... with shenanigans. Not in any realistic scenario, of course, in a realistic scenario youd take 2k from backstab and 1k from heartseeker. I assume that the Thief is playing something like DA/SA/CS (which is a really bad build since you dont even have trickery), he was at full hp, had pre-stacked might somehow, used assassins signet, and you had vuln or condis on you somehow. Otherwise, its still not possible.

    There’s a couple of important things here. The first strike is 6k. That’s pretty heavy for a thief using sPvP stats but I’d buy those numbers based on WvW stats and getting some significant vulnerability onto the target.

    The second strike is only for 2.8k, which is not that significant for HS (still high HP so the modifier is pretty low). The combo of an Air sigil and some life steal off food is what pushes this over 10k for the two skills. (Nearly 1k off the sigil is 10% of the damage).

    Now, with 18k HP, that pushes the ranger below 50% and the next Heartseeker hits a bit harder. The last HS is below 25% and hits the hardest.

    If I had to guess with the self-reported stats the thief is running a very one shot oriented build. Backstab, HS x3. Likely a very quick sequence because there is probably a time limit to how long the damage is that high (or the thief is running very glassy). On a lower toughness opponent they probably would have hit a 8k+ BS and a 4k+ base HS. Again that’s with WvW stats where base power can be much higher.

    This is why people should record their gameplay and then slow down the video so they can see everything that hits them. Recording software can passively run in the background so you just hit record when something interesting happened and you want to figure it out.

    He was a [SA] thief and I was standing still in bay, my aim was to calculate how much dmg I could receive while having the highest possible armor rating on a ranger. From the screenshot you can see that it all happened within the space of 1.5s. I am not suggesting whether the build is legitimate or a hack because I don't care really...all I am saying that thief is far from being the weak class as some would make you believe , thief is one of the top duelist in WvW , when it comes to 1v1 potential thief and ranger are a cut above the rest when mastered though and that's fine given their core design ideology.

    Yes...I know that whatever I say won't stop people from shouting : "my class is UP buff me", if Anet wants to give 20k backstab dmg to thieves let them....with my screenshot I have proved that thieves do high dmg...that's all....now people can keep asking for buff all they want till they shut down these servers....I really couldn't care less at this point

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @reddie.5861 said:

    @Strider.7849 said:

    • Thief has more burst this isn't even debatable after the nerfs to ranger. There is still commander sniping builds in play.

    hmm not sure about this..
    played thief for long time and ranger aswell (pretty much only 2 i play)
    ranger on more deffensive stats has far better burst then a thief.
    i mean people will say im crying but thief burst is so sad right now..

    mean while on my ranger who is using durability runes and some armor (dunno which but no zerk stats at all) is doing far better dmg wise.
    tbh i dont really mind the nerfs ill play thief till i quit but thief isnt as it used to be.

    they nerfed staff thief well nerfed not rly increased the ini use on staff 5 which was not really needed so that zerg build ur on about is not that good anymore u can do 2 vaults and ur out of ini. so thief is in same state as ranger useless and probably next nerf is inc again.
    cus thief is not useless in sPvP and since wvw takes alot of kitten from sPvP they probably get nerfed again for nothing rly.

    I have a screenshot of a thief dealing upward of 10k+ dmg between a backstab and a HS followed by around 8k+ more dmg soon after.

    Do you mean 10k with a backstab + HS, or either backstab or HS? The former, sure, if youre low hp, possible. The latter, unless youre a glass and theyre playing a very bad build, is not possible.

    In the screenshot I was using an experimental build, made for the sake of testing and I was using : 2.9k toughness = 4k armor....why do thief players keep lying so blatantly? ..."thief burst is sad right now"....please stop it....there are dozens of videos out there proving you wrong

    Yeah ok with 4k armour there is absolutely no way the thief got 10k+ damage from a single backstab without shenanigans. Im not even sure its possible with shenanigans. And no, there are dozens of videos showing that thief burst is indeed sad. Here we have a frontstab on a squishy thief. 2k. A backstab would do 4k. So how exactly do you think a thief wouldve backstabbed for over 10k on a 4k armour guy? With 4k armour youd take half the damage, so unless the thief somehow miraculously got a 400% damage boost from somewhere, Im gonna call BS.

    I have clearly stated 10k dmg as a combination of a backstab and a Heartseeker while the target has 4k armor...I was full HP

    It was many things, "clearly" it was not. But this is at least possible .... with shenanigans. Not in any realistic scenario, of course, in a realistic scenario youd take 2k from backstab and 1k from heartseeker. I assume that the Thief is playing something like DA/SA/CS (which is a really bad build since you dont even have trickery), he was at full hp, had pre-stacked might somehow, used assassins signet, and you had vuln or condis on you somehow. Otherwise, its still not possible.

    There’s a couple of important things here. The first strike is 6k. That’s pretty heavy for a thief using sPvP stats but I’d buy those numbers based on WvW stats and getting some significant vulnerability onto the target.

    Its a lot for a WvW strike even on a squishy glass cannon. On a supposed 4k armour target, no way in hell you ever get 6k backstabs off.

    The second strike is only for 2.8k, which is not that significant for HS (still high HP so the modifier is pretty low). The combo of an Air sigil and some life steal off food is what pushes this over 10k for the two skills. (Nearly 1k off the sigil is 10% of the damage).

    Its actually a bit higher than a >50% hp Heartseeker does on a squishy target. Again, 4k armour, not a chance.

    Now, with 18k HP, that pushes the ranger below 50% and the next Heartseeker hits a bit harder. The last HS is below 25% and hits the hardest.

    Thats about right.

    If I had to guess with the self-reported stats the thief is running a very one shot oriented build. Backstab, HS x3. Likely a very quick sequence because there is probably a time limit to how long the damage is that high (or the thief is running very glassy). On a lower toughness opponent they probably would have hit a 8k+ BS and a 4k+ base HS. Again that’s with WvW stats where base power can be much higher.

    No, on a lower toughness target they would have hit a 5k, maybe a 6k if theyre pushing it, backstab. His damage is much higher than is possible without shenanigans. Because its not a realistic damage number.

    This is why people should record their gameplay and then slow down the video so they can see everything that hits them. Recording software can passively run in the background so you just hit record when something interesting happened and you want to figure it out.

    I have a good guess as to why he didnt want to do that here.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @reddie.5861 said:

    @Strider.7849 said:

    • Thief has more burst this isn't even debatable after the nerfs to ranger. There is still commander sniping builds in play.

    hmm not sure about this..
    played thief for long time and ranger aswell (pretty much only 2 i play)
    ranger on more deffensive stats has far better burst then a thief.
    i mean people will say im crying but thief burst is so sad right now..

    mean while on my ranger who is using durability runes and some armor (dunno which but no zerk stats at all) is doing far better dmg wise.
    tbh i dont really mind the nerfs ill play thief till i quit but thief isnt as it used to be.

    they nerfed staff thief well nerfed not rly increased the ini use on staff 5 which was not really needed so that zerg build ur on about is not that good anymore u can do 2 vaults and ur out of ini. so thief is in same state as ranger useless and probably next nerf is inc again.
    cus thief is not useless in sPvP and since wvw takes alot of kitten from sPvP they probably get nerfed again for nothing rly.

    I have a screenshot of a thief dealing upward of 10k+ dmg between a backstab and a HS followed by around 8k+ more dmg soon after.

    Do you mean 10k with a backstab + HS, or either backstab or HS? The former, sure, if youre low hp, possible. The latter, unless youre a glass and theyre playing a very bad build, is not possible.

    In the screenshot I was using an experimental build, made for the sake of testing and I was using : 2.9k toughness = 4k armor....why do thief players keep lying so blatantly? ..."thief burst is sad right now"....please stop it....there are dozens of videos out there proving you wrong

    Yeah ok with 4k armour there is absolutely no way the thief got 10k+ damage from a single backstab without shenanigans. Im not even sure its possible with shenanigans. And no, there are dozens of videos showing that thief burst is indeed sad. Here we have a frontstab on a squishy thief. 2k. A backstab would do 4k. So how exactly do you think a thief wouldve backstabbed for over 10k on a 4k armour guy? With 4k armour youd take half the damage, so unless the thief somehow miraculously got a 400% damage boost from somewhere, Im gonna call BS.

    I have clearly stated 10k dmg as a combination of a backstab and a Heartseeker while the target has 4k armor...I was full HP

    It was many things, "clearly" it was not. But this is at least possible .... with shenanigans. Not in any realistic scenario, of course, in a realistic scenario youd take 2k from backstab and 1k from heartseeker. I assume that the Thief is playing something like DA/SA/CS (which is a really bad build since you dont even have trickery), he was at full hp, had pre-stacked might somehow, used assassins signet, and you had vuln or condis on you somehow. Otherwise, its still not possible.

    There’s a couple of important things here. The first strike is 6k. That’s pretty heavy for a thief using sPvP stats but I’d buy those numbers based on WvW stats and getting some significant vulnerability onto the target.

    The second strike is only for 2.8k, which is not that significant for HS (still high HP so the modifier is pretty low). The combo of an Air sigil and some life steal off food is what pushes this over 10k for the two skills. (Nearly 1k off the sigil is 10% of the damage).

    Now, with 18k HP, that pushes the ranger below 50% and the next Heartseeker hits a bit harder. The last HS is below 25% and hits the hardest.

    If I had to guess with the self-reported stats the thief is running a very one shot oriented build. Backstab, HS x3. Likely a very quick sequence because there is probably a time limit to how long the damage is that high (or the thief is running very glassy). On a lower toughness opponent they probably would have hit a 8k+ BS and a 4k+ base HS. Again that’s with WvW stats where base power can be much higher.

    This is why people should record their gameplay and then slow down the video so they can see everything that hits them. Recording software can passively run in the background so you just hit record when something interesting happened and you want to figure it out.

    He was a [SA] thief and I was standing still in bay, my aim was to calculate how much dmg I could receive while having the highest possible armor rating on a ranger. From the screenshot you can see that it all happened within the space of 1.5s. I am not suggesting whether the build is legitimate or a hack because I don't care really...all I am saying that thief is far from being the weak class as some would make you believe , thief is one of the top duelist in WvW , when it comes to 1v1 potential thief and ranger are a cut above the rest when mastered though and that's fine given their core design ideology.

    And Im suggesting that since the damage numbers are much higher than is actually possible, either you were lying about having 4k toughness, or there were shenanigans afoot (most likely the latter). Thief is not a top duelist in WvW, nor is it anywhere close. It loses almost every 1v1 against an equally skilled player (the exception is stuff like condi mesmer because consume plasma is dumb). Now what thief is good at, is not dying, but not losing is not winning either. In terms of 1v1 potential, the top 3 are probably Ranger, some version of Engineer, and either warrior or Revenant.

    Yes...I know that whatever I say won't stop people from shouting : "my class is UP buff me", if Anet wants to give 20k backstab dmg to thieves let them....with my screenshot I have proved that thieves do high dmg...that's all....now people can keep asking for buff all they want till they shut down these servers....I really couldn't care less at this point

    No, you have not proven that at all. You have only proven that you can show a misleading screenshot. I have already shown what the damage numbers are actually like with a video. We saw that a squishy target takes 4k from a backstab. So your screenshot simply cant be more than nonsense.

  • Naqam a.6521Naqam a.6521 Member ✭✭
    edited September 20, 2020

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @reddie.5861 said:

    @Strider.7849 said:

    • Thief has more burst this isn't even debatable after the nerfs to ranger. There is still commander sniping builds in play.

    hmm not sure about this..
    played thief for long time and ranger aswell (pretty much only 2 i play)
    ranger on more deffensive stats has far better burst then a thief.
    i mean people will say im crying but thief burst is so sad right now..

    mean while on my ranger who is using durability runes and some armor (dunno which but no zerk stats at all) is doing far better dmg wise.
    tbh i dont really mind the nerfs ill play thief till i quit but thief isnt as it used to be.

    they nerfed staff thief well nerfed not rly increased the ini use on staff 5 which was not really needed so that zerg build ur on about is not that good anymore u can do 2 vaults and ur out of ini. so thief is in same state as ranger useless and probably next nerf is inc again.
    cus thief is not useless in sPvP and since wvw takes alot of kitten from sPvP they probably get nerfed again for nothing rly.

    I have a screenshot of a thief dealing upward of 10k+ dmg between a backstab and a HS followed by around 8k+ more dmg soon after.

    Do you mean 10k with a backstab + HS, or either backstab or HS? The former, sure, if youre low hp, possible. The latter, unless youre a glass and theyre playing a very bad build, is not possible.

    In the screenshot I was using an experimental build, made for the sake of testing and I was using : 2.9k toughness = 4k armor....why do thief players keep lying so blatantly? ..."thief burst is sad right now"....please stop it....there are dozens of videos out there proving you wrong

    Yeah ok with 4k armour there is absolutely no way the thief got 10k+ damage from a single backstab without shenanigans. Im not even sure its possible with shenanigans. And no, there are dozens of videos showing that thief burst is indeed sad. Here we have a frontstab on a squishy thief. 2k. A backstab would do 4k. So how exactly do you think a thief wouldve backstabbed for over 10k on a 4k armour guy? With 4k armour youd take half the damage, so unless the thief somehow miraculously got a 400% damage boost from somewhere, Im gonna call BS.

    I have clearly stated 10k dmg as a combination of a backstab and a Heartseeker while the target has 4k armor...I was full HP

    It was many things, "clearly" it was not. But this is at least possible .... with shenanigans. Not in any realistic scenario, of course, in a realistic scenario youd take 2k from backstab and 1k from heartseeker. I assume that the Thief is playing something like DA/SA/CS (which is a really bad build since you dont even have trickery), he was at full hp, had pre-stacked might somehow, used assassins signet, and you had vuln or condis on you somehow. Otherwise, its still not possible.

    There’s a couple of important things here. The first strike is 6k. That’s pretty heavy for a thief using sPvP stats but I’d buy those numbers based on WvW stats and getting some significant vulnerability onto the target.

    The second strike is only for 2.8k, which is not that significant for HS (still high HP so the modifier is pretty low). The combo of an Air sigil and some life steal off food is what pushes this over 10k for the two skills. (Nearly 1k off the sigil is 10% of the damage).

    Now, with 18k HP, that pushes the ranger below 50% and the next Heartseeker hits a bit harder. The last HS is below 25% and hits the hardest.

    If I had to guess with the self-reported stats the thief is running a very one shot oriented build. Backstab, HS x3. Likely a very quick sequence because there is probably a time limit to how long the damage is that high (or the thief is running very glassy). On a lower toughness opponent they probably would have hit a 8k+ BS and a 4k+ base HS. Again that’s with WvW stats where base power can be much higher.

    This is why people should record their gameplay and then slow down the video so they can see everything that hits them. Recording software can passively run in the background so you just hit record when something interesting happened and you want to figure it out.

    He was a [SA] thief and I was standing still in bay, my aim was to calculate how much dmg I could receive while having the highest possible armor rating on a ranger. From the screenshot you can see that it all happened within the space of 1.5s. I am not suggesting whether the build is legitimate or a hack because I don't care really...all I am saying that thief is far from being the weak class as some would make you believe , thief is one of the top duelist in WvW , when it comes to 1v1 potential thief and ranger are a cut above the rest when mastered though and that's fine given their core design ideology.

    And Im suggesting that since the damage numbers are much higher than is actually possible, either you were lying about having 4k toughness, or there were shenanigans afoot (most likely the latter). Thief is not a top duelist in WvW, nor is it anywhere close. It loses almost every 1v1 against an equally skilled player (the exception is stuff like condi mesmer because consume plasma is dumb). Now what thief is good at, is not dying, but not losing is not winning either. In terms of 1v1 potential, the top 3 are probably Ranger, some version of Engineer, and either warrior or Revenant.

    Yes...I know that whatever I say won't stop people from shouting : "my class is UP buff me", if Anet wants to give 20k backstab dmg to thieves let them....with my screenshot I have proved that thieves do high dmg...that's all....now people can keep asking for buff all they want till they shut down these servers....I really couldn't care less at this point

    No, you have not proven that at all. You have only proven that you can show a misleading screenshot. I have already shown what the damage numbers are actually like with a video. We saw that a squishy target takes 4k from a backstab. So your screenshot simply cant be more than nonsense.

    Nope you are wrong
    She the video again and see how the backstab mechanic works :)

    https://imgur.com/a/ZRueFiR
    https://imgur.com/a/urWbgta

    1 month

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    No, you have not proven that at all. You have only proven that you can show a misleading screenshot. I have already shown what the damage numbers are actually like with a video. We saw that a squishy target takes 4k from a backstab. So your screenshot simply cant be more than nonsense.

    Too bad few thieves run kitten builds that cant do damage then.
    I've been hit for 3k autoattacks from rifle DEs and that's on trailblazer/dire "squishy" armor.

    gaggle - /ˈɡaɡ(ə)l/ - noun
    A disorderly group of Asura.
    "The gaggle of Asura tried to agree on whether a phase-shifted thermonuclear energy matrix was sufficiently powerful for a device capable of heating bread"

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @reddie.5861 said:

    @Strider.7849 said:

    • Thief has more burst this isn't even debatable after the nerfs to ranger. There is still commander sniping builds in play.

    hmm not sure about this..
    played thief for long time and ranger aswell (pretty much only 2 i play)
    ranger on more deffensive stats has far better burst then a thief.
    i mean people will say im crying but thief burst is so sad right now..

    mean while on my ranger who is using durability runes and some armor (dunno which but no zerk stats at all) is doing far better dmg wise.
    tbh i dont really mind the nerfs ill play thief till i quit but thief isnt as it used to be.

    they nerfed staff thief well nerfed not rly increased the ini use on staff 5 which was not really needed so that zerg build ur on about is not that good anymore u can do 2 vaults and ur out of ini. so thief is in same state as ranger useless and probably next nerf is inc again.
    cus thief is not useless in sPvP and since wvw takes alot of kitten from sPvP they probably get nerfed again for nothing rly.

    I have a screenshot of a thief dealing upward of 10k+ dmg between a backstab and a HS followed by around 8k+ more dmg soon after.

    Do you mean 10k with a backstab + HS, or either backstab or HS? The former, sure, if youre low hp, possible. The latter, unless youre a glass and theyre playing a very bad build, is not possible.

    In the screenshot I was using an experimental build, made for the sake of testing and I was using : 2.9k toughness = 4k armor....why do thief players keep lying so blatantly? ..."thief burst is sad right now"....please stop it....there are dozens of videos out there proving you wrong

    Yeah ok with 4k armour there is absolutely no way the thief got 10k+ damage from a single backstab without shenanigans. Im not even sure its possible with shenanigans. And no, there are dozens of videos showing that thief burst is indeed sad. Here we have a frontstab on a squishy thief. 2k. A backstab would do 4k. So how exactly do you think a thief wouldve backstabbed for over 10k on a 4k armour guy? With 4k armour youd take half the damage, so unless the thief somehow miraculously got a 400% damage boost from somewhere, Im gonna call BS.

    I have clearly stated 10k dmg as a combination of a backstab and a Heartseeker while the target has 4k armor...I was full HP

    It was many things, "clearly" it was not. But this is at least possible .... with shenanigans. Not in any realistic scenario, of course, in a realistic scenario youd take 2k from backstab and 1k from heartseeker. I assume that the Thief is playing something like DA/SA/CS (which is a really bad build since you dont even have trickery), he was at full hp, had pre-stacked might somehow, used assassins signet, and you had vuln or condis on you somehow. Otherwise, its still not possible.

    There’s a couple of important things here. The first strike is 6k. That’s pretty heavy for a thief using sPvP stats but I’d buy those numbers based on WvW stats and getting some significant vulnerability onto the target.

    The second strike is only for 2.8k, which is not that significant for HS (still high HP so the modifier is pretty low). The combo of an Air sigil and some life steal off food is what pushes this over 10k for the two skills. (Nearly 1k off the sigil is 10% of the damage).

    Now, with 18k HP, that pushes the ranger below 50% and the next Heartseeker hits a bit harder. The last HS is below 25% and hits the hardest.

    If I had to guess with the self-reported stats the thief is running a very one shot oriented build. Backstab, HS x3. Likely a very quick sequence because there is probably a time limit to how long the damage is that high (or the thief is running very glassy). On a lower toughness opponent they probably would have hit a 8k+ BS and a 4k+ base HS. Again that’s with WvW stats where base power can be much higher.

    This is why people should record their gameplay and then slow down the video so they can see everything that hits them. Recording software can passively run in the background so you just hit record when something interesting happened and you want to figure it out.

    He was a [SA] thief and I was standing still in bay, my aim was to calculate how much dmg I could receive while having the highest possible armor rating on a ranger. From the screenshot you can see that it all happened within the space of 1.5s. I am not suggesting whether the build is legitimate or a hack because I don't care really...all I am saying that thief is far from being the weak class as some would make you believe , thief is one of the top duelist in WvW , when it comes to 1v1 potential thief and ranger are a cut above the rest when mastered though and that's fine given their core design ideology.

    And Im suggesting that since the damage numbers are much higher than is actually possible, either you were lying about having 4k toughness, or there were shenanigans afoot (most likely the latter). Thief is not a top duelist in WvW, nor is it anywhere close. It loses almost every 1v1 against an equally skilled player (the exception is stuff like condi mesmer because consume plasma is dumb). Now what thief is good at, is not dying, but not losing is not winning either. In terms of 1v1 potential, the top 3 are probably Ranger, some version of Engineer, and either warrior or Revenant.

    Yes...I know that whatever I say won't stop people from shouting : "my class is UP buff me", if Anet wants to give 20k backstab dmg to thieves let them....with my screenshot I have proved that thieves do high dmg...that's all....now people can keep asking for buff all they want till they shut down these servers....I really couldn't care less at this point

    No, you have not proven that at all. You have only proven that you can show a misleading screenshot. I have already shown what the damage numbers are actually like with a video. We saw that a squishy target takes 4k from a backstab. So your screenshot simply cant be more than nonsense.

    Nope you are wrong
    She the video again and see how the backstab mechanic works :)

    https://imgur.com/a/ZRueFiR
    https://imgur.com/a/urWbgta

    I literally said that it was a front backstab. And that a proper backstab would do 4k. 4k on a squishy is still a lot less than 6k on a supposed 4k armour build.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 20, 2020

    @UNOwen.7132

    “Anyway a thief obviously cant win a 1v1 against a ranger”

    “those fights thief just cant win.”

    “"Stealth" useless for defense.”

    “but Deadeye is trash”

    “stealth may well do literally nothing. Thats why its useless for defense”

    And for a reminder...

    "On flat ground (which WvW has a lot of), Ranger does have more mobility.”

    Can you post that ranger build that has more mobility than any thief build?

  • Naqam a.6521Naqam a.6521 Member ✭✭
    edited September 20, 2020

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @reddie.5861 said:

    @Strider.7849 said:

    • Thief has more burst this isn't even debatable after the nerfs to ranger. There is still commander sniping builds in play.

    hmm not sure about this..
    played thief for long time and ranger aswell (pretty much only 2 i play)
    ranger on more deffensive stats has far better burst then a thief.
    i mean people will say im crying but thief burst is so sad right now..

    mean while on my ranger who is using durability runes and some armor (dunno which but no zerk stats at all) is doing far better dmg wise.
    tbh i dont really mind the nerfs ill play thief till i quit but thief isnt as it used to be.

    they nerfed staff thief well nerfed not rly increased the ini use on staff 5 which was not really needed so that zerg build ur on about is not that good anymore u can do 2 vaults and ur out of ini. so thief is in same state as ranger useless and probably next nerf is inc again.
    cus thief is not useless in sPvP and since wvw takes alot of kitten from sPvP they probably get nerfed again for nothing rly.

    I have a screenshot of a thief dealing upward of 10k+ dmg between a backstab and a HS followed by around 8k+ more dmg soon after.

    Do you mean 10k with a backstab + HS, or either backstab or HS? The former, sure, if youre low hp, possible. The latter, unless youre a glass and theyre playing a very bad build, is not possible.

    In the screenshot I was using an experimental build, made for the sake of testing and I was using : 2.9k toughness = 4k armor....why do thief players keep lying so blatantly? ..."thief burst is sad right now"....please stop it....there are dozens of videos out there proving you wrong

    Yeah ok with 4k armour there is absolutely no way the thief got 10k+ damage from a single backstab without shenanigans. Im not even sure its possible with shenanigans. And no, there are dozens of videos showing that thief burst is indeed sad. Here we have a frontstab on a squishy thief. 2k. A backstab would do 4k. So how exactly do you think a thief wouldve backstabbed for over 10k on a 4k armour guy? With 4k armour youd take half the damage, so unless the thief somehow miraculously got a 400% damage boost from somewhere, Im gonna call BS.

    I have clearly stated 10k dmg as a combination of a backstab and a Heartseeker while the target has 4k armor...I was full HP

    It was many things, "clearly" it was not. But this is at least possible .... with shenanigans. Not in any realistic scenario, of course, in a realistic scenario youd take 2k from backstab and 1k from heartseeker. I assume that the Thief is playing something like DA/SA/CS (which is a really bad build since you dont even have trickery), he was at full hp, had pre-stacked might somehow, used assassins signet, and you had vuln or condis on you somehow. Otherwise, its still not possible.

    There’s a couple of important things here. The first strike is 6k. That’s pretty heavy for a thief using sPvP stats but I’d buy those numbers based on WvW stats and getting some significant vulnerability onto the target.

    The second strike is only for 2.8k, which is not that significant for HS (still high HP so the modifier is pretty low). The combo of an Air sigil and some life steal off food is what pushes this over 10k for the two skills. (Nearly 1k off the sigil is 10% of the damage).

    Now, with 18k HP, that pushes the ranger below 50% and the next Heartseeker hits a bit harder. The last HS is below 25% and hits the hardest.

    If I had to guess with the self-reported stats the thief is running a very one shot oriented build. Backstab, HS x3. Likely a very quick sequence because there is probably a time limit to how long the damage is that high (or the thief is running very glassy). On a lower toughness opponent they probably would have hit a 8k+ BS and a 4k+ base HS. Again that’s with WvW stats where base power can be much higher.

    This is why people should record their gameplay and then slow down the video so they can see everything that hits them. Recording software can passively run in the background so you just hit record when something interesting happened and you want to figure it out.

    He was a [SA] thief and I was standing still in bay, my aim was to calculate how much dmg I could receive while having the highest possible armor rating on a ranger. From the screenshot you can see that it all happened within the space of 1.5s. I am not suggesting whether the build is legitimate or a hack because I don't care really...all I am saying that thief is far from being the weak class as some would make you believe , thief is one of the top duelist in WvW , when it comes to 1v1 potential thief and ranger are a cut above the rest when mastered though and that's fine given their core design ideology.

    And Im suggesting that since the damage numbers are much higher than is actually possible, either you were lying about having 4k toughness, or there were shenanigans afoot (most likely the latter). Thief is not a top duelist in WvW, nor is it anywhere close. It loses almost every 1v1 against an equally skilled player (the exception is stuff like condi mesmer because consume plasma is dumb). Now what thief is good at, is not dying, but not losing is not winning either. In terms of 1v1 potential, the top 3 are probably Ranger, some version of Engineer, and either warrior or Revenant.

    Yes...I know that whatever I say won't stop people from shouting : "my class is UP buff me", if Anet wants to give 20k backstab dmg to thieves let them....with my screenshot I have proved that thieves do high dmg...that's all....now people can keep asking for buff all they want till they shut down these servers....I really couldn't care less at this point

    No, you have not proven that at all. You have only proven that you can show a misleading screenshot. I have already shown what the damage numbers are actually like with a video. We saw that a squishy target takes 4k from a backstab. So your screenshot simply cant be more than nonsense.

    Nope you are wrong
    She the video again and see how the backstab mechanic works :)

    https://imgur.com/a/ZRueFiR
    https://imgur.com/a/urWbgta

    I literally said that it was a front backstab. And that a proper backstab would do 4k. 4k on a squishy is still a lot less than 6k on a supposed 4k armour build.

    a) As the video YOU linked shows that thieves use stealth in combat:)
    b) 0:20 + 0:28 = 5,300 WvWvW
    0:53 = 5000 PvP
    1:13 = 6400 WvWvW

    c) if he used Assassin signet + Lighting/Fire sigil + 800 from Leach+Siphon, the ''burst'' (combination of attacks to maximize damage) would rise

    1 month

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 20, 2020

    @UNOwen.7132

    Unfortunately for you, those random videos go directly against what you said about thief.

    And this applies too... “Yeah except nothing is wrong. If there was something wrong youd have an actual argument, but alas, you do not.”... Now you may feel these ways about thief based off of your own proficiency level with thief, but they aren’t based on facts. Just because you may not be as skilled with thief doesn’t mean “Anyway a thief obviously cant win a 1v1 against a ranger”, “those fights thief just cant win.”, “"Stealth" useless for defense.”, “but Deadeye is trash”, “stealth may well do literally nothing.”... and so on.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    @UNOwen.7132

    Unfortunately for you, those random videos go directly against what you said about thief.

    No they dont. Remember, I said thief loses every 1v1 against equally skilled players. Its actually quite good at killing those that are a lot worse than them. And you can find plenty of those in WvW. The thing with montages is, they are cherry-picked. They only show the times the thief wins. For all we know they couldve lost 1000 times and won 10 times. The montage would look no different. And well, we can see many of those players are not of equal skill. Not to mention some of them are not even from this year.

    And this applies too... “Yeah except nothing is wrong. If there was something wrong youd have an actual argument, but alas, you do not.”... Now you may feel these ways about thief based off of your own proficiency level with thief, but they aren’t based on facts. Just because you may not be as skilled with thief doesn’t mean “Anyway a thief obviously cant win a 1v1 against a ranger”, “those fights thief just cant win.”, “"Stealth" useless for defense.”, “but Deadeye is trash”, “stealth may well do literally nothing.”... and so on.

    No, I know this because I play against many thieves. Its based on fact. I did well enough with thief. Didnt die against equally skilled players (but obviously never killed them either), stomped worse players. But thats not a terribly exciting way to play, so I ditched thief years ago. Nowadays I only face thieves. And since Im not significantly worse than the thieves I meet, I dont die to them. I dont think Ive lost a 1v1 to a thief unless I was playing deadeye in a very long time.

  • @Eventine.8024 said:
    Simple question: I want to play thief rifle in WvW, but when I battle with any other class, ranger for example, this happens:
    Ranger has more mobility

    It has equal mobility by run/walk speed and mobility skills while moving. It can however chase you with Smoke Assault Merge and you can't get away from it unless you stealth.

    Ranger has more stealth

    No. In no way does Ranger have more stealth than a Thief.

    Ranger has more healing

    Ranger definitely has more healing, well most builds you encounter yes.

    Ranger has more burst and damage over time

    If you come across a glass cannon Soulbeast with One Wolf Pack and Sic Em, yes, the Ranger will have more front loaded burst than you. But after that burst is done, the Deadeye EASILY has more damage over time. You just need to understand how to bait and ruin the Ranger's initial burst. In no way does the Ranger have consistent damage to keep up with Death's Judgement. The Soulbeast's big burst is on a 60s CD.

    Longbow vs rifle (or short bot): rapid fire kills everything, while rifle and short bow do insignificant damage. Rapid fire keep hitting even if i'm in stealth

    Get out of of range or LOS dude. You are a Thief with a Shortbow 900 range teleport mixed with Shadow Step 1200 Teleport. Use it.

    Ranger has invulnerable, ranger has pet, ranger has amazing down skill.

    As a Deadeye, you get hard countered by Ranger. This is just how it works for several reasons. If you want to be able to kill Rangers, you have to understand the idea of staying out of range of the Ranger, until you can come back with a full burst and the resources to be able to once again get out of range quickly when necessary. And no, the Ranger cannot outrun you if you do this properly.

    Ranger has stability

    A Ranger with stability means he isn't running One Wolf Pack, which means you should be winning the 1v1 or at least not dying to it and being able to run away.

    How this is balanced? Why Dev has this amazing game and still manage to ruin it every patch? Where is WvW alliance system?

    I agree Deadeye is under the weather right now in terms of where it sits in balance. But there are a lot of things you could be doing better to utilize the class you are choosing to play. You need to treat every situation as if you only have 1 health. When you do this, you'll unlock your true Deadeye skills and you'll see how the class was meant to be played.

  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 20, 2020

    6k backstab @ 4k armor (screenshot)

    Possible with this build (max. potential is 7k damage at a 4k armor target):
    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PawAgqVlNwwYgsNGJOqLbtUA-zVIYR09XKNFC1mo9GBVUU2eSCj/W0fGA-w

    At the base armor of ~2k, this build deals 14k backstabs (I've witnessed these already, they exist!). Add the heartseeker to the typical D/P 5, 2 steal, hit combo and you've got your 20k opener. To make that clear: no prebuilt might, no prebuilt vulnerability! An opener in a 1v1 situation!

    And the best thing is, this build can escape with ease after the backstab.

    Change DA to trickery and you still have a 6k backstab @ 4k armor (12k @ 2k armor) and a build that got a lot of utility and can restealth and resetup the backstab several times. That is not a one trick pony build. That is a viable teef roaming build and I've encountered it very often.
    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PawAgqVlNwwYgsNGJW2WntUA-zVIYR09XKNFC1mo9GBVUU2eSCj/W0fGA-w

    The dagger storm rework (that added evasion) broke that build. It's deadly and untouchable in the hands of a patient player, that keeps an eye on the dagger storm and shadowstep cooldowns.

    Each time someone in this forum says teef deals poor damage and can't kill anything, I think of this build and have a good laugh.

  • Piedplat.3597Piedplat.3597 Member ✭✭
    edited September 20, 2020

    I know the best break CC is the ranger who have it and it's lighning reflexes. That break CC, remove Immobilize, rollback you of 700 unit with a dodge of 3/4 seconde and with wilderness knowlege it remove 2 condis, give fury and only on a CD of 24 secondes.

    Prove me wrong.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 20, 2020

    @Piedplat.3597 said:
    I know the best break CC is the ranger who have it and it's lighning reflexes. That break CC, remove Immobilize, rollback you of 700 unit with a dodge of 3/4 seconde and with wilderness knowlege it remove 2 condis, give fury and only on a CD of 24 secondes.

    Prove me wrong.

    Uh it has a couple of huge drawback dude.

    1. Now that passive CC is a thing after so much stab & stun break was removed post legend nerf patch, we've got a lot of Shocking Aura and Flashbang going on. Lightning Reflexes has a small amount of damage on it, which makes it count as an attack. When you try to use LR that damage activates effects like Shock Aura and Flashbang passive CCs that immediately stun you, which completely negates the skill LR. You use the stun break but then immediately get stunned again, and you don't even move any of the range that LR was supposed to put you. That damage also reveals you out of stealth if anything is near you when you use LR.
    2. Lightning Reflexes also cannot go over effects like Line or Ring of Warding or Spectral Ring, ect ect.. So when you have to use that skill for whatever reason and those effects are around you, you just immediately get locked right back into a CC again.
  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @reddie.5861 said:

    @Strider.7849 said:

    • Thief has more burst this isn't even debatable after the nerfs to ranger. There is still commander sniping builds in play.

    hmm not sure about this..
    played thief for long time and ranger aswell (pretty much only 2 i play)
    ranger on more deffensive stats has far better burst then a thief.
    i mean people will say im crying but thief burst is so sad right now..

    mean while on my ranger who is using durability runes and some armor (dunno which but no zerk stats at all) is doing far better dmg wise.
    tbh i dont really mind the nerfs ill play thief till i quit but thief isnt as it used to be.

    they nerfed staff thief well nerfed not rly increased the ini use on staff 5 which was not really needed so that zerg build ur on about is not that good anymore u can do 2 vaults and ur out of ini. so thief is in same state as ranger useless and probably next nerf is inc again.
    cus thief is not useless in sPvP and since wvw takes alot of kitten from sPvP they probably get nerfed again for nothing rly.

    I have a screenshot of a thief dealing upward of 10k+ dmg between a backstab and a HS followed by around 8k+ more dmg soon after.

    Do you mean 10k with a backstab + HS, or either backstab or HS? The former, sure, if youre low hp, possible. The latter, unless youre a glass and theyre playing a very bad build, is not possible.

    In the screenshot I was using an experimental build, made for the sake of testing and I was using : 2.9k toughness = 4k armor....why do thief players keep lying so blatantly? ..."thief burst is sad right now"....please stop it....there are dozens of videos out there proving you wrong

    Yeah ok with 4k armour there is absolutely no way the thief got 10k+ damage from a single backstab without shenanigans. Im not even sure its possible with shenanigans. And no, there are dozens of videos showing that thief burst is indeed sad. Here we have a frontstab on a squishy thief. 2k. A backstab would do 4k. So how exactly do you think a thief wouldve backstabbed for over 10k on a 4k armour guy? With 4k armour youd take half the damage, so unless the thief somehow miraculously got a 400% damage boost from somewhere, Im gonna call BS.

    I have clearly stated 10k dmg as a combination of a backstab and a Heartseeker while the target has 4k armor...I was full HP

    It was many things, "clearly" it was not. But this is at least possible .... with shenanigans. Not in any realistic scenario, of course, in a realistic scenario youd take 2k from backstab and 1k from heartseeker. I assume that the Thief is playing something like DA/SA/CS (which is a really bad build since you dont even have trickery), he was at full hp, had pre-stacked might somehow, used assassins signet, and you had vuln or condis on you somehow. Otherwise, its still not possible.

    There’s a couple of important things here. The first strike is 6k. That’s pretty heavy for a thief using sPvP stats but I’d buy those numbers based on WvW stats and getting some significant vulnerability onto the target.

    Its a lot for a WvW strike even on a squishy glass cannon. On a supposed 4k armour target, no way in hell you ever get 6k backstabs off.

    The second strike is only for 2.8k, which is not that significant for HS (still high HP so the modifier is pretty low). The combo of an Air sigil and some life steal off food is what pushes this over 10k for the two skills. (Nearly 1k off the sigil is 10% of the damage).

    Its actually a bit higher than a >50% hp Heartseeker does on a squishy target. Again, 4k armour, not a chance.

    Now, with 18k HP, that pushes the ranger below 50% and the next Heartseeker hits a bit harder. The last HS is below 25% and hits the hardest.

    Thats about right.

    If I had to guess with the self-reported stats the thief is running a very one shot oriented build. Backstab, HS x3. Likely a very quick sequence because there is probably a time limit to how long the damage is that high (or the thief is running very glassy). On a lower toughness opponent they probably would have hit a 8k+ BS and a 4k+ base HS. Again that’s with WvW stats where base power can be much higher.

    No, on a lower toughness target they would have hit a 5k, maybe a 6k if theyre pushing it, backstab. His damage is much higher than is possible without shenanigans. Because its not a realistic damage number.

    This is why people should record their gameplay and then slow down the video so they can see everything that hits them. Recording software can passively run in the background so you just hit record when something interesting happened and you want to figure it out.

    I have a good guess as to why he didnt want to do that here.

    As a squishy I get hit for upwards of 7k BS regularly.

    Not a hack, really just normal damage on a build built for it.

    Also, I disagree that thief can’t 1v1. I don’t know about what equal skill level is supposed to mean, exactly. But I can say that good players can fight on equal footing with good thieves, and lose.

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • Supreme.3164Supreme.3164 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 21, 2020

    This looks to be another long thread.....

  • Kadsik.9281Kadsik.9281 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Kadsik.9281 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:
    I think everything you said there is wrong.

    I'm guessing you play ranger right? OP's post feels a whiny, but for the most part I do not think he's wrong, atleast with damage and healing.

    I have 85 hours on my only ranger character over the last 2000 days. Roughly half of that is world completion. I have 7900 hours on my account.

    So guess how close to correct you are.

    Are you implying that I should of already known how many hours you had on ranger? I guess what I meant to ask was if it was your main. That's why I made a "guess" not a statement.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kadsik.9281 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Kadsik.9281 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:
    I think everything you said there is wrong.

    I'm guessing you play ranger right? OP's post feels a whiny, but for the most part I do not think he's wrong, atleast with damage and healing.

    I have 85 hours on my only ranger character over the last 2000 days. Roughly half of that is world completion. I have 7900 hours on my account.

    So guess how close to correct you are.

    Are you implying that I should of already known how many hours you had on ranger? I guess what I meant to ask was if it was your main. That's why I made a "guess" not a statement.

    And I guess you where wrong.

    gaggle - /ˈɡaɡ(ə)l/ - noun
    A disorderly group of Asura.
    "The gaggle of Asura tried to agree on whether a phase-shifted thermonuclear energy matrix was sufficiently powerful for a device capable of heating bread"

  • Kadsik.9281Kadsik.9281 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 21, 2020

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Kadsik.9281 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Kadsik.9281 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:
    I think everything you said there is wrong.

    I'm guessing you play ranger right? OP's post feels a whiny, but for the most part I do not think he's wrong, atleast with damage and healing.

    I have 85 hours on my only ranger character over the last 2000 days. Roughly half of that is world completion. I have 7900 hours on my account.

    So guess how close to correct you are.

    Are you implying that I should of already known how many hours you had on ranger? I guess what I meant to ask was if it was your main. That's why I made a "guess" not a statement.

    And I guess you where wrong.

    Well actually the thing is I can't read minds like everyone else yet, hopefully I can evolve soon and catch up.

  • Kodama.6453Kodama.6453 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Piedplat.3597 said:
    I know the best break CC is the ranger who have it and it's lighning reflexes. That break CC, remove Immobilize, rollback you of 700 unit with a dodge of 3/4 seconde and with wilderness knowlege it remove 2 condis, give fury and only on a CD of 24 secondes.

    Prove me wrong.

    Uh it has a couple of huge drawback dude.

    1. Now that passive CC is a thing after so much stab & stun break was removed post legend nerf patch, we've got a lot of Shocking Aura and Flashbang going on. Lightning Reflexes has a small amount of damage on it, which makes it count as an attack. When you try to use LR that damage activates effects like Shock Aura and Flashbang passive CCs that immediately stun you, which completely negates the skill LR. You use the stun break but then immediately get stunned again, and you don't even move any of the range that LR was supposed to put you. That damage also reveals you out of stealth if anything is near you when you use LR.
    2. Lightning Reflexes also cannot go over effects like Line or Ring of Warding or Spectral Ring, ect ect.. So when you have to use that skill for whatever reason and those effects are around you, you just immediately get locked right back into a CC again.

    Flashbang requires explosive entrance to hit to CC.... how do you come up with the idea that the little damage from lightning reflexes would trigger flashbang?

  • @KrHome.1920 said:

    6k backstab @ 4k armor (screenshot)

    Possible with this build (max. potential is 7k damage at a 4k armor target):
    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PawAgqVlNwwYgsNGJOqLbtUA-zVIYR09XKNFC1mo9GBVUU2eSCj/W0fGA-w

    At the base armor of ~2k, this build deals 14k backstabs (I've witnessed these already, they exist!). Add the heartseeker to the typical D/P 5, 2 steal, hit combo and you've got your 20k opener. To make that clear: no prebuilt might, no prebuilt vulnerability! An opener in a 1v1 situation!

    And the best thing is, this build can escape with ease after the backstab.

    Change DA to trickery and you still have a 6k backstab @ 4k armor (12k @ 2k armor) and a build that got a lot of utility and can restealth and resetup the backstab several times. That is not a one trick pony build. That is a viable teef roaming build and I've encountered it very often.
    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PawAgqVlNwwYgsNGJW2WntUA-zVIYR09XKNFC1mo9GBVUU2eSCj/W0fGA-w

    The dagger storm rework (that added evasion) broke that build. It's deadly and untouchable in the hands of a patient player, that keeps an eye on the dagger storm and shadowstep cooldowns.

    Each time someone in this forum says teef deals poor damage and can't kill anything, I think of this build and have a good laugh.

    Out of interest, why impact sigil? Does that work on dazes too?

    Critical Kit, Deadeye.
    “If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.” - John Steinbeck

  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 21, 2020

    @Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

    @KrHome.1920 said:

    6k backstab @ 4k armor (screenshot)

    Possible with this build (max. potential is 7k damage at a 4k armor target):
    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PawAgqVlNwwYgsNGJOqLbtUA-zVIYR09XKNFC1mo9GBVUU2eSCj/W0fGA-w

    At the base armor of ~2k, this build deals 14k backstabs (I've witnessed these already, they exist!). Add the heartseeker to the typical D/P 5, 2 steal, hit combo and you've got your 20k opener. To make that clear: no prebuilt might, no prebuilt vulnerability! An opener in a 1v1 situation!

    And the best thing is, this build can escape with ease after the backstab.

    Change DA to trickery and you still have a 6k backstab @ 4k armor (12k @ 2k armor) and a build that got a lot of utility and can restealth and resetup the backstab several times. That is not a one trick pony build. That is a viable teef roaming build and I've encountered it very often.
    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PawAgqVlNwwYgsNGJW2WntUA-zVIYR09XKNFC1mo9GBVUU2eSCj/W0fGA-w

    The dagger storm rework (that added evasion) broke that build. It's deadly and untouchable in the hands of a patient player, that keeps an eye on the dagger storm and shadowstep cooldowns.

    Each time someone in this forum says teef deals poor damage and can't kill anything, I think of this build and have a good laugh.

    Out of interest, why impact sigil? Does that work on dazes too?

    Just for the max possible multiplier (I've calculated with 3%).
    Air sigil is actually better in terms of damage but a separate hit. And my intention was the maximum you can get for that one backstab hit.

  • ASP.8093ASP.8093 Member ✭✭✭

    You can pretend it's Sigil of Night for a total of +10% instead, if you'd like. :)

  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 21, 2020

    @ASP.8093 said:
    You can pretend it's Sigil of Night for a total of +10% instead, if you'd like. :)

    Technically you could also run bounding dodger and add another 15% of damage to reach even 8k @ 4k armor, but that dodge is just too clunky for a squishy build like that. The build would be unplayable. =)

  • @KrHome.1920 said:

    6k backstab @ 4k armor (screenshot)

    Possible with this build (max. potential is 7k damage at a 4k armor target):
    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PawAgqVlNwwYgsNGJOqLbtUA-zVIYR09XKNFC1mo9GBVUU2eSCj/W0fGA-w

    At the base armor of ~2k, this build deals 14k backstabs (I've witnessed these already, they exist!). Add the heartseeker to the typical D/P 5, 2 steal, hit combo and you've got your 20k opener. To make that clear: no prebuilt might, no prebuilt vulnerability! An opener in a 1v1 situation!

    And the best thing is, this build can escape with ease after the backstab.

    Change DA to trickery and you still have a 6k backstab @ 4k armor (12k @ 2k armor) and a build that got a lot of utility and can restealth and resetup the backstab several times. That is not a one trick pony build. That is a viable teef roaming build and I've encountered it very often.
    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PawAgqVlNwwYgsNGJW2WntUA-zVIYR09XKNFC1mo9GBVUU2eSCj/W0fGA-w

    The dagger storm rework (that added evasion) broke that build. It's deadly and untouchable in the hands of a patient player, that keeps an eye on the dagger storm and shadowstep cooldowns.

    Each time someone in this forum says teef deals poor damage and can't kill anything, I think of this build and have a good laugh.

    I don't have a Thief anymore, but not all too long ago I enjoyed playing a Cavalier Thief with Hidden Killer (100% Critical Chance when attacking from Stealth) and Sigil of Vision. My damage was generally pretty bad, but when spiking people from Stealth I could easily land 10k+ Backstabs, and often after swapping from Shortbow do things like this

    I only played Cavalier because I'm a horrible Thief and I wanted cushion so I could practice. It turned out performing better than I expected because I was able to spike people for half their health on engage while still having a heap of armor to deal with their response.

    With that said, I'm not asking for nerfs to Thief nor do I think it's OP, yadda yadda yadda. I actually think Thief could use buffs in a number of areas, but my point is that I agree on how much damage it can put out without said build being completely unusable. I think a part of the problem is that a lot of Thieves just go full Marauder and slot for as much escape potential as they can instead of investing anything in damage. So they hit like, 3 - 5k Backstabs on average when they could be doing a lot higher if they planned to actually commit to a fight for a change.

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  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 21, 2020

    @SpellOfIniquity.1780 said:
    I only played Cavalier because I'm a horrible Thief and I wanted cushion so I could practice. It turned out performing better than I expected because I was able to spike people for half their health on engage while still having a heap of armor to deal with their response.

    That's critical strikes. That traitline is broken (like shadow arts too these days). I suck on teef too because I haven't any practise on the spec anymore.

    So what did I do: I went full soldier + scholar rune + accuracy/force + cleansing/bloodlust sigils, CS/Tr/DrD and ended up with

    3000 power
    50% crit chance
    200% crit damage
    3000 armor
    20000 health

    Pick staff and do your 6 to 10k vaults while being able to facetank and to run away with shortbow, shadowstep and dagger storm at any time. I am winning 80% of my duells at roaming with this build without any practise. From the other 20% I just run away.

    Well.. we are leaving the topic I guess.

  • ASP.8093ASP.8093 Member ✭✭✭

    @KrHome.1920 said:
    So what did I do: I went full soldier + scholar rune + accuracy/force + cleansing/bloodlust sigils, CS/Tr/DrD and ended up with

    3000 power
    50% crit chance
    200% crit damage
    3000 armor
    20000 health

    The problem is that this that's 50% crit chance / 200% crit damage with perma-Fury already factored in. You're whiffing a lot on crits compared to thief builds that get 95-100% crit chance, and cutting No Quarter for Hidden Killer (to guarantee a few big crits) or Invigorating Precision (for sustain) will drop your Ferocity to like ~180% crit damage.

  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 21, 2020

    @ASP.8093 said:

    @KrHome.1920 said:
    So what did I do: I went full soldier + scholar rune + accuracy/force + cleansing/bloodlust sigils, CS/Tr/DrD and ended up with

    3000 power
    50% crit chance
    200% crit damage
    3000 armor
    20000 health

    The problem is that this that's 50% crit chance / 200% crit damage with perma-Fury already factored in. You're whiffing a lot on crits compared to thief builds that get 95-100% crit chance, and cutting No Quarter for Hidden Killer (to guarantee a few big crits) or Invigorating Precision (for sustain) will drop your Ferocity to like ~180% crit damage.

    Due to the fight presence that build has the 50% turned out to be not a big deal - to me at least. But I have to mention that it really does work only with staff as this is the thief dps weapon (the highest multipliers). While these gear numbers look impressive the base damage of dagger and sword is so low, that you can't kill anything when picking these. I haven't tested rifle yet. But since rifle has also high multipliers and deadeye has a huge quickness uptime, that build might even work as a no stealth rifle bruiser. And the escape potential would also be good as rifle can spam leaps like shortbow.