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Balance: Thief vs Ranger

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  • ASP.8093ASP.8093 Member ✭✭✭

    Rifle needs initiative reset for sustained damage. That initiative reset comes from building Malice into M7 with critical hits. Anything that lowers your crit rate also slows down your ability to build Malice, and makes it harder to get Protection on yourself. You could possibly get away with lower crit in PvE because TRB gives you three chances to crit, but in WvW you're mostly using Skirmisher's Shot due to the better balance of damage, initiative, and mobility that it provides over all other Rifle skills.

    Non-M7 Rifle builds are really really burst-oriented so they really want like 3-4 attacks to all crit with Quickness, and afterward you just sorta run away for 15 seconds regardless of what happened.

  • Straegen.2938Straegen.2938 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 21, 2020

    The problem with rangers vs thieves is that most won't engage without numbers. Finding a ranger willing to go toe-to-toe in equal numbers is absurdly rare. 1v1, a ranger is my prison GF. On the rare occasion I find one solo in the wild they are usually so tanky there is no point in engaging them.

  • @Eventine.8024 said:
    Simple question: I want to play thief rifle in WvW, but when I battle with any other class, ranger for example, this happens:
    Ranger has more mobility
    Ranger has more stealth
    Ranger has more healing
    Ranger has more burst and damage over time
    Longbow vs rifle (or short bot): rapid fire kills everything, while rifle and short bow do insignificant damage. Rapid fire keep hitting even if i'm in stealth
    Ranger has invulnerable, ranger has pet, ranger has amazing down skill.
    Ranger has stability
    Thief has boon strip
    .
    How this is balanced? Why Dev has this amazing game and still manage to ruin it every patch? Where is WvW alliance system?
    I play gw2 since betaweekend 1, and it's already 2 years I lost faith in you.

    Eventine

    You have more evades and stealth. We can't hit, what we can't see. And a lot of thieves and deadeyes go Condi/tank. SO I suggest you learn Condi/tank or go full glass cannon and pop off your shots quickly from stealth. I've had 7 years about listening from players how OP ranger is, and then not find but a handful of six commanders..>IF THAT....who will let me into their kitten zerg. The rest don't even bother for an invite of any ranger class. IF we were OP , the commanders in WvW would be saying "We got too many firebrands in our composition, we need more rangers...." <_----- have you EVER read that statement in WvW? If the answer is NO, then no, we are NOT OP.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @KrHome.1920 said:

    6k backstab @ 4k armor (screenshot)

    Possible with this build (max. potential is 7k damage at a 4k armor target):
    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PawAgqVlNwwYgsNGJOqLbtUA-zVIYR09XKNFC1mo9GBVUU2eSCj/W0fGA-w

    At the base armor of ~2k, this build deals 14k backstabs (I've witnessed these already, they exist!). Add the heartseeker to the typical D/P 5, 2 steal, hit combo and you've got your 20k opener. To make that clear: no prebuilt might, no prebuilt vulnerability! An opener in a 1v1 situation!

    No, it does not. Remember, even max glass cannon Deadeye with malicious backstab barely cracked 14k backstabs on squishies pre-patch. This build not only has lower damage than that build would have, backstab damage has since been reduced by 25%. This build probably does around 7k backstab on a squishy target, and a fractio nof that on a 4k armour target without nonsense setups.

    And the best thing is, this build can escape with ease after the backstab.

    Once. Then your Shadowstep is on cooldown and next time you try something, you instantly get killed.

    Change DA to trickery and you still have a 6k backstab @ 4k armor (12k @ 2k armor) and a build that got a lot of utility and can restealth and resetup the backstab several times. That is not a one trick pony build. That is a viable teef roaming build and I've encountered it very often.
    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PawAgqVlNwwYgsNGJW2WntUA-zVIYR09XKNFC1mo9GBVUU2eSCj/W0fGA-w

    Damage number is completely wrong, see above. Youre also losing a whole lot more than just 2k damage by switching DA to trickery.

    The dagger storm rework (that added evasion) broke that build. It's deadly and untouchable in the hands of a patient player, that keeps an eye on the dagger storm and shadowstep cooldowns.

    Until its forced to use both, and then doesnt do anything until theyreb ack.

    Each time someone in this forum says teef deals poor damage and can't kill anything, I think of this build and have a good laugh.

    Yes, an unplayable build that still barely does damage totally disproves that.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @reddie.5861 said:

    @Strider.7849 said:

    • Thief has more burst this isn't even debatable after the nerfs to ranger. There is still commander sniping builds in play.

    hmm not sure about this..
    played thief for long time and ranger aswell (pretty much only 2 i play)
    ranger on more deffensive stats has far better burst then a thief.
    i mean people will say im crying but thief burst is so sad right now..

    mean while on my ranger who is using durability runes and some armor (dunno which but no zerk stats at all) is doing far better dmg wise.
    tbh i dont really mind the nerfs ill play thief till i quit but thief isnt as it used to be.

    they nerfed staff thief well nerfed not rly increased the ini use on staff 5 which was not really needed so that zerg build ur on about is not that good anymore u can do 2 vaults and ur out of ini. so thief is in same state as ranger useless and probably next nerf is inc again.
    cus thief is not useless in sPvP and since wvw takes alot of kitten from sPvP they probably get nerfed again for nothing rly.

    I have a screenshot of a thief dealing upward of 10k+ dmg between a backstab and a HS followed by around 8k+ more dmg soon after.

    Do you mean 10k with a backstab + HS, or either backstab or HS? The former, sure, if youre low hp, possible. The latter, unless youre a glass and theyre playing a very bad build, is not possible.

    In the screenshot I was using an experimental build, made for the sake of testing and I was using : 2.9k toughness = 4k armor....why do thief players keep lying so blatantly? ..."thief burst is sad right now"....please stop it....there are dozens of videos out there proving you wrong

    Yeah ok with 4k armour there is absolutely no way the thief got 10k+ damage from a single backstab without shenanigans. Im not even sure its possible with shenanigans. And no, there are dozens of videos showing that thief burst is indeed sad. Here we have a frontstab on a squishy thief. 2k. A backstab would do 4k. So how exactly do you think a thief wouldve backstabbed for over 10k on a 4k armour guy? With 4k armour youd take half the damage, so unless the thief somehow miraculously got a 400% damage boost from somewhere, Im gonna call BS.

    I have clearly stated 10k dmg as a combination of a backstab and a Heartseeker while the target has 4k armor...I was full HP

    It was many things, "clearly" it was not. But this is at least possible .... with shenanigans. Not in any realistic scenario, of course, in a realistic scenario youd take 2k from backstab and 1k from heartseeker. I assume that the Thief is playing something like DA/SA/CS (which is a really bad build since you dont even have trickery), he was at full hp, had pre-stacked might somehow, used assassins signet, and you had vuln or condis on you somehow. Otherwise, its still not possible.

    There’s a couple of important things here. The first strike is 6k. That’s pretty heavy for a thief using sPvP stats but I’d buy those numbers based on WvW stats and getting some significant vulnerability onto the target.

    Its a lot for a WvW strike even on a squishy glass cannon. On a supposed 4k armour target, no way in hell you ever get 6k backstabs off.

    The second strike is only for 2.8k, which is not that significant for HS (still high HP so the modifier is pretty low). The combo of an Air sigil and some life steal off food is what pushes this over 10k for the two skills. (Nearly 1k off the sigil is 10% of the damage).

    Its actually a bit higher than a >50% hp Heartseeker does on a squishy target. Again, 4k armour, not a chance.

    Now, with 18k HP, that pushes the ranger below 50% and the next Heartseeker hits a bit harder. The last HS is below 25% and hits the hardest.

    Thats about right.

    If I had to guess with the self-reported stats the thief is running a very one shot oriented build. Backstab, HS x3. Likely a very quick sequence because there is probably a time limit to how long the damage is that high (or the thief is running very glassy). On a lower toughness opponent they probably would have hit a 8k+ BS and a 4k+ base HS. Again that’s with WvW stats where base power can be much higher.

    No, on a lower toughness target they would have hit a 5k, maybe a 6k if theyre pushing it, backstab. His damage is much higher than is possible without shenanigans. Because its not a realistic damage number.

    This is why people should record their gameplay and then slow down the video so they can see everything that hits them. Recording software can passively run in the background so you just hit record when something interesting happened and you want to figure it out.

    I have a good guess as to why he didnt want to do that here.

    As a squishy I get hit for upwards of 7k BS regularly.

    Unless you were already in a fight so that the thief could stack up lead attacks, and the thief played a bad crit strikes build, highly unlikely. Certainly not above 7k, doubtful you even get 7k.

    Not a hack, really just normal damage on a build built for it.

    Even a crit strikes build fails to crack 7k. Now if you also dropped trickery, maybe, but there is a reason trickery is mandatory.

    Also, I disagree that thief can’t 1v1. I don’t know about what equal skill level is supposed to mean, exactly. But I can say that good players can fight on equal footing with good thieves, and lose.

    I have yet to see that happen. I certainly have yet to experience myself (when I lose to thieves, either Im playing Deadeye which sucks, or theyre significantly better than me, and I concede that). Thief cant 1v1 good roaming builds with equally skilled players.

  • Naqam a.6521Naqam a.6521 Member ✭✭
    edited September 23, 2020

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @reddie.5861 said:

    @Strider.7849 said:

    • Thief has more burst this isn't even debatable after the nerfs to ranger. There is still commander sniping builds in play.

    hmm not sure about this..
    played thief for long time and ranger aswell (pretty much only 2 i play)
    ranger on more deffensive stats has far better burst then a thief.
    i mean people will say im crying but thief burst is so sad right now..

    mean while on my ranger who is using durability runes and some armor (dunno which but no zerk stats at all) is doing far better dmg wise.
    tbh i dont really mind the nerfs ill play thief till i quit but thief isnt as it used to be.

    they nerfed staff thief well nerfed not rly increased the ini use on staff 5 which was not really needed so that zerg build ur on about is not that good anymore u can do 2 vaults and ur out of ini. so thief is in same state as ranger useless and probably next nerf is inc again.
    cus thief is not useless in sPvP and since wvw takes alot of kitten from sPvP they probably get nerfed again for nothing rly.

    I have a screenshot of a thief dealing upward of 10k+ dmg between a backstab and a HS followed by around 8k+ more dmg soon after.

    Do you mean 10k with a backstab + HS, or either backstab or HS? The former, sure, if youre low hp, possible. The latter, unless youre a glass and theyre playing a very bad build, is not possible.

    In the screenshot I was using an experimental build, made for the sake of testing and I was using : 2.9k toughness = 4k armor....why do thief players keep lying so blatantly? ..."thief burst is sad right now"....please stop it....there are dozens of videos out there proving you wrong

    Yeah ok with 4k armour there is absolutely no way the thief got 10k+ damage from a single backstab without shenanigans. Im not even sure its possible with shenanigans. And no, there are dozens of videos showing that thief burst is indeed sad. Here we have a frontstab on a squishy thief. 2k. A backstab would do 4k. So how exactly do you think a thief wouldve backstabbed for over 10k on a 4k armour guy? With 4k armour youd take half the damage, so unless the thief somehow miraculously got a 400% damage boost from somewhere, Im gonna call BS.

    I have clearly stated 10k dmg as a combination of a backstab and a Heartseeker while the target has 4k armor...I was full HP

    It was many things, "clearly" it was not. But this is at least possible .... with shenanigans. Not in any realistic scenario, of course, in a realistic scenario youd take 2k from backstab and 1k from heartseeker. I assume that the Thief is playing something like DA/SA/CS (which is a really bad build since you dont even have trickery), he was at full hp, had pre-stacked might somehow, used assassins signet, and you had vuln or condis on you somehow. Otherwise, its still not possible.

    There’s a couple of important things here. The first strike is 6k. That’s pretty heavy for a thief using sPvP stats but I’d buy those numbers based on WvW stats and getting some significant vulnerability onto the target.

    Its a lot for a WvW strike even on a squishy glass cannon. On a supposed 4k armour target, no way in hell you ever get 6k backstabs off.

    The second strike is only for 2.8k, which is not that significant for HS (still high HP so the modifier is pretty low). The combo of an Air sigil and some life steal off food is what pushes this over 10k for the two skills. (Nearly 1k off the sigil is 10% of the damage).

    Its actually a bit higher than a >50% hp Heartseeker does on a squishy target. Again, 4k armour, not a chance.

    Now, with 18k HP, that pushes the ranger below 50% and the next Heartseeker hits a bit harder. The last HS is below 25% and hits the hardest.

    Thats about right.

    If I had to guess with the self-reported stats the thief is running a very one shot oriented build. Backstab, HS x3. Likely a very quick sequence because there is probably a time limit to how long the damage is that high (or the thief is running very glassy). On a lower toughness opponent they probably would have hit a 8k+ BS and a 4k+ base HS. Again that’s with WvW stats where base power can be much higher.

    No, on a lower toughness target they would have hit a 5k, maybe a 6k if theyre pushing it, backstab. His damage is much higher than is possible without shenanigans. Because its not a realistic damage number.

    This is why people should record their gameplay and then slow down the video so they can see everything that hits them. Recording software can passively run in the background so you just hit record when something interesting happened and you want to figure it out.

    I have a good guess as to why he didnt want to do that here.

    As a squishy I get hit for upwards of 7k BS regularly.

    Unless you were already in a fight so that the thief could stack up lead attacks, and the thief played a bad crit strikes build, highly unlikely. Certainly not above 7k, doubtful you even get 7k.

    Not a hack, really just normal damage on a build built for it.

    Even a crit strikes build fails to crack 7k. Now if you also dropped trickery, maybe, but there is a reason trickery is mandatory.

    Also, I disagree that thief can’t 1v1. I don’t know about what equal skill level is supposed to mean, exactly. But I can say that good players can fight on equal footing with good thieves, and lose.

    I have yet to see that happen. I certainly have yet to experience myself (when I lose to thieves, either Im playing Deadeye which sucks, or theyre significantly better than me, and I concede that). Thief cant 1v1 good roaming builds with equally skilled players.

    Yeah , when you say you dont like to use stealth in combat , while all the others in the Youtube do ...
    They might have picked some tactics you dont :)
    Such as re-using Backstab or any stealth attack , to kill the target faster

    1 month

  • God.2708God.2708 Member ✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    No, it does not. Remember, even max glass cannon Deadeye with malicious backstab barely cracked 14k backstabs on squishies pre-patch. This build not only has lower damage than that build would have, backstab damage has since been reduced by 25%. This build probably does around 7k backstab on a squishy target, and a fractio nof that on a 4k armour target without nonsense setups.

    This... this isn't even hard to verify.

    1.8 Power mod. 1k Weapon Power. 3580 Power with assassins signet active and no might.
    Easy Modifiers: 253% critical damage. 105% scholar. 105% force. 103% impact. 110% ferocious strikes. 107% from twin fangs.

    6,444,000 damage pre-modifiers. 21,790,556 damage post-modifiers. Divide by whatever armor level you want.

    10,895 to 2000 armor. 5,447 to 4000 armor.

    Left out a 7% modifier, a 5/10/15% modifier, 300 ferocity, 5%+ from vuln (steal), 4%+ from exposed weakness (steal), and the other 7% from impact sigil.

    The numbers are all there. Stop spouting anecdotal kitten to try to make whatever point.

  • ASP.8093ASP.8093 Member ✭✭✭

    Taking big chunks out of 'squishies' with Backstab is the thief's job. It's ok if they're good at it.

  • aleron.1438aleron.1438 Member ✭✭✭

    DE counters Slb. It's may not hardcounter but it's an 2 act dance.

    SA 333, Tr 312, DE 111, full Mara/Durab, dual cleansing/energy rifles, 40%food. Still rocking the roaming sessions.

  • noot.8641noot.8641 Member ✭✭✭

    @aleron.1438 said:
    DE counters Slb. It's may not hardcounter but it's an 2 act dance.

    SA 333, Tr 312, DE 111, full Mara/Durab, dual cleansing/energy rifles, 40%food. Still rocking the roaming sessions.

    It’s not that DE counters rangers, but SA counters almost everything. SA is just busted.

  • @reddie.5861 said:

    @Eventine.8024 said:
    Simple question: I want to play thief rifle in WvW, but when I battle with any other class, ranger for example, this happens:
    Ranger has more mobility
    Ranger has more stealth
    Ranger has more healing
    Ranger has more burst and damage over time
    Longbow vs rifle (or short bot): rapid fire kills everything, while rifle and short bow do insignificant damage. Rapid fire keep hitting even if i'm in stealth
    Ranger has invulnerable, ranger has pet, ranger has amazing down skill.
    Ranger has stability
    Thief has boon strip
    .
    How this is balanced? Why Dev has this amazing game and still manage to ruin it every patch? Where is WvW alliance system?
    I play gw2 since betaweekend 1, and it's already 2 years I lost faith in you.

    Eventine

    ranger doesnt have more mobility, it depends where u are at. yes in 1 straight line forward he will most likely be faster then u but he cant dps in that time while u shouldnt have a hard time catching up.

    ranger has more stealth? how? a blast and longbow 3? and maybe if u play druid? or use trapper runes? basically not tru.

    ranger has more healing meh not sure i doubt that.

    ranger has more burst, ye kind of but easier to dodge. as for dmg over time as in condi? think thief is better at it ;).

    in general a good deadeye will eat a ranger. so rifle > longbow?

    yes ranger has invul 3s? and another 3 if u take tank pet and if ur a moron u have trait also. <- this is uncommon very uncommon. as for downskill what is the amazing one? the pet res? ur a thief interupt it and the skill turns out to be useless or u mean the other downskill that does 1 lighting strike kind of thing that interupts? ur down skill as thief > u port when they stomp > u stealth when they wanna stomp again > u might get res in meanwhile. think in case of ranger vs thief i rather have thief down state skills.

    thief has stability also not as much as ranger but dont need it.

    think balance between thief ranger is fine. im playing thief mainly and from time to time ranger the balance problem between these 2 classes isnt the above atleast
    also im fairly sure ur mixing up a kitten ton of different ranger builds vs your one thief build.
    well in that case i can make list for every class :D

    ranger has more burst, ye kind of but easier to dodge. as for dmg over time as in condi? think thief is better at it ;).

    As someone that plays condi DE, DoT would have to go to ranger due to the broken af perma immob.

    No idea why we are comparing teef to ranger...its like comparing apples to oranges. 2 diff classes, 2 diff mechanics.

    Red = Dead...or someone runs away. Either way it's gone.
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  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Eventine.8024 said:
    Simple question: I want to play thief rifle in WvW, but when I battle with any other class, ranger for example, this happens:
    Ranger has more mobility
    Ranger has more stealth

    Yeah I lol'ed and stopped reading here.

    Typical forum balance complaint, based on inaccurate statements by people who need to l2p

    "We recognize that some players are not able to complete all content." Gaile Gray 01.10.19

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 24, 2020

    @KrHome.1920 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    No, it does not. Remember, even max glass cannon Deadeye with malicious backstab barely cracked 14k backstabs on squishies pre-patch. This build not only has lower damage than that build would have, backstab damage has since been reduced by 25%. This build probably does around 7k backstab on a squishy target, and a fractio nof that on a 4k armour target without nonsense setups.

    So you deny the official damage formula of the game.

    Good job! Who should take you seriously?

    4000 power * 1000 weapon strength * 1.8 backstab modifier * 2.7 crit damage modifier / 4000 armor = 4860 damage (that's already ~9500 damage at your squishy target!)

    4000 power? Where exactly are you getting 4000 power from? You barely crack 3580. Not sure where you think youre getting a 2.7 modifier from either. Im assuming you wanted it to be from the fury, except you dont get the fury before the backstab. No trickery, remember? So, lets fix it. 3580 power*1.8*2.53/4000= 4000-ish damage.

    Then add the traits and sigils:
    sigil of force, sigil of impact, even the odds, twin fangs, practised tolerance, ferocious strikes, no quarter, weakening strikes, havoc specialist

    Oh, youre using the sigils too. kitten, you really went all-in on the "max damage with min playability" huh? Anyway, you already tried to include no quarter, even though it didnt fit in. Practiced Tolerance is already included. Now sure, if you add those in, you get a decent chunk of damage. Lets see, should be around 3580*1.8*2.7*1.05*1.05*1.03*1.05*1.06/4000= 5500. I admit, more than I expected, its 11k on a squishy. But its not 14k, nor anywhere near 14k, so youre still wrong. So perhaps dont act so smug?

    7k on a squishy target... you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Please just stop at this point!

    Sure, I didnt see the sigils, so its more. But let me remind you. This is a build you manufactured to hit as much damage as possible. Its a build that isnt played because, well, its unplayable. Its a joke build. I can also probably make an ele build that bursts for 20000, that doesnt mean ele has great burst, it means you can sacrifice playability to try and fail to prove a point. You also were still wrong about 14k damage. And as for 7k on a 4k armour target, clearly even with your build its just not possible.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 24, 2020

    @God.2708 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    No, it does not. Remember, even max glass cannon Deadeye with malicious backstab barely cracked 14k backstabs on squishies pre-patch. This build not only has lower damage than that build would have, backstab damage has since been reduced by 25%. This build probably does around 7k backstab on a squishy target, and a fractio nof that on a 4k armour target without nonsense setups.

    This... this isn't even hard to verify.

    1.8 Power mod. 1k Weapon Power. 3580 Power with assassins signet active and no might.
    Easy Modifiers: 253% critical damage. 105% scholar. 105% force. 103% impact. 110% ferocious strikes. 107% from twin fangs.

    6,444,000 damage pre-modifiers. 21,790,556 damage post-modifiers. Divide by whatever armor level you want.

    10,895 to 2000 armor. 5,447 to 4000 armor.

    Left out a 7% modifier, a 5/10/15% modifier, 300 ferocity, 5%+ from vuln (steal), 4%+ from exposed weakness (steal), and the other 7% from impact sigil.

    The numbers are all there. Stop spouting anecdotal kitten to try to make whatever point.

    Your math has issues. Twin Fangs and Ferocious strikes are included in critical damage. Theyre not thrown ontop of it. Its 5500 damage if you include steal and exposed weakness. The others arent included because you dont actually get them with the initial backstab, and if youre not on the initial backstab anymore, well, lets just say most of the damage modifiers there turn off if you stay in a fight. Second, even so, thats not 14k on a squishy, nor 7k on a 4k armour target. He was no less wrong than I was with his math. Difference is, I guesstimated. He claimed to have seen something his build shows isnt possible.

  • @UNOwen.7132 said:
    Remember, even max glass cannon Deadeye with malicious backstab barely cracked 14k backstabs on squishies pre-patch.

    ???

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  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @SpellOfIniquity.1780 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    Remember, even max glass cannon Deadeye with malicious backstab barely cracked 14k backstabs on squishies pre-patch.

    ???

    Without context, I cant say if youre undergeared, if you got vulnerability bombed by a nearby scrapper or anything of the sort. Seriously people, without context damage number screenshots are worthless.

  • @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @SpellOfIniquity.1780 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    Remember, even max glass cannon Deadeye with malicious backstab barely cracked 14k backstabs on squishies pre-patch.

    ???

    Without context, I cant say if youre undergeared, if you got vulnerability bombed by a nearby scrapper or anything of the sort. Seriously people, without context damage number screenshots are worthless.

    Prepatch, I was on a zerk Necro, full ascended level 80. First hit I was not in Shroud and survived with like, 500 health. I entered Shroud and all the following hits were on my Shroud.

    I was Marked and instantly backstabbed, it wasn't a prolonged fight and they had no time to build Malice. I had another screenshot of being hit by the same Thief shortly before this.

    I haven't been hit anything close to this post patch but I'm just providing an example that it was more than possible prepatch. As of now I don't think I've been hit any higher than 10k by any Thieves, but some of them do still hit pretty hard.
    Also, I know I'm playing zerk and that's my own fault. I'm not one of the ones that was complaining about Thief in this thread, I'm just providing a relevant example.

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  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @SpellOfIniquity.1780 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @SpellOfIniquity.1780 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    Remember, even max glass cannon Deadeye with malicious backstab barely cracked 14k backstabs on squishies pre-patch.

    ???

    Without context, I cant say if youre undergeared, if you got vulnerability bombed by a nearby scrapper or anything of the sort. Seriously people, without context damage number screenshots are worthless.

    Prepatch, I was on a zerk Necro, full ascended level 80. First hit I was not in Shroud and survived with like, 500 health. I entered Shroud and all the following hits were on my Shroud.

    I was going to say "how do the autos do that much damage", but if Im not mistaken, combat log doesnt include damage resistance from Shroud in its numbers, is it? Still, peculiar, this is higher than should be possible. Maybe he had stacked might somehow.

    I was Marked and instantly backstabbed, it wasn't a prolonged fight and they had no time to build Malice. I had another screenshot of being hit by the same Thief shortly before this.

    I haven't been hit anything close to this post patch but I'm just providing an example that it was more than possible prepatch. As of now I don't think I've been hit any higher than 10k by any Thieves, but some of them do still hit pretty hard.
    Also, I know I'm playing zerk and that's my own fault. I'm not one of the ones that was complaining about Thief in this thread, I'm just providing a relevant example.

    Well, lets just say this isnt a representative screenshot from pre-patch MBS Thieves. But I dont know how he upped his damage, so.

  • God.2708God.2708 Member ✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @God.2708 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    No, it does not. Remember, even max glass cannon Deadeye with malicious backstab barely cracked 14k backstabs on squishies pre-patch. This build not only has lower damage than that build would have, backstab damage has since been reduced by 25%. This build probably does around 7k backstab on a squishy target, and a fractio nof that on a 4k armour target without nonsense setups.

    This... this isn't even hard to verify.

    1.8 Power mod. 1k Weapon Power. 3580 Power with assassins signet active and no might.
    Easy Modifiers: 253% critical damage. 105% scholar. 105% force. 103% impact. 110% ferocious strikes. 107% from twin fangs.

    6,444,000 damage pre-modifiers. 21,790,556 damage post-modifiers. Divide by whatever armor level you want.

    10,895 to 2000 armor. 5,447 to 4000 armor.

    Left out a 7% modifier, a 5/10/15% modifier, 300 ferocity, 5%+ from vuln (steal), 4%+ from exposed weakness (steal), and the other 7% from impact sigil.

    The numbers are all there. Stop spouting anecdotal kitten to try to make whatever point.

    Your math has issues. Twin Fangs and Ferocious strikes are included in critical damage. Theyre not thrown ontop of it. Its 5500 damage if you include steal and exposed weakness. The others arent included because you dont actually get them with the initial backstab, and if youre not on the initial backstab anymore, well, lets just say most of the damage modifiers there turn off if you stay in a fight. Second, even so, thats not 14k on a squishy, nor 7k on a 4k armour target. He was no less wrong than I was with his math. Difference is, I guesstimated. He claimed to have seen something his build shows isnt possible.

    Read the wiki on twin fangs and ferocious strikes.

    And yes I've tested it in game. Consider yourself more informed now.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @God.2708 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @God.2708 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    No, it does not. Remember, even max glass cannon Deadeye with malicious backstab barely cracked 14k backstabs on squishies pre-patch. This build not only has lower damage than that build would have, backstab damage has since been reduced by 25%. This build probably does around 7k backstab on a squishy target, and a fractio nof that on a 4k armour target without nonsense setups.

    This... this isn't even hard to verify.

    1.8 Power mod. 1k Weapon Power. 3580 Power with assassins signet active and no might.
    Easy Modifiers: 253% critical damage. 105% scholar. 105% force. 103% impact. 110% ferocious strikes. 107% from twin fangs.

    6,444,000 damage pre-modifiers. 21,790,556 damage post-modifiers. Divide by whatever armor level you want.

    10,895 to 2000 armor. 5,447 to 4000 armor.

    Left out a 7% modifier, a 5/10/15% modifier, 300 ferocity, 5%+ from vuln (steal), 4%+ from exposed weakness (steal), and the other 7% from impact sigil.

    The numbers are all there. Stop spouting anecdotal kitten to try to make whatever point.

    Your math has issues. Twin Fangs and Ferocious strikes are included in critical damage. Theyre not thrown ontop of it. Its 5500 damage if you include steal and exposed weakness. The others arent included because you dont actually get them with the initial backstab, and if youre not on the initial backstab anymore, well, lets just say most of the damage modifiers there turn off if you stay in a fight. Second, even so, thats not 14k on a squishy, nor 7k on a 4k armour target. He was no less wrong than I was with his math. Difference is, I guesstimated. He claimed to have seen something his build shows isnt possible.

    Read the wiki on twin fangs and ferocious strikes.

    Oh. Thats ... not how its supposed to work. Interesting. Well, I didnt know that, but it does appear as though youre right. That adds a little bit of damage, but with 6k it still falls short of the supposed 7k.

    And yes I've tested it in game. Consider yourself more informed now.

    So I am.

  • @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @SpellOfIniquity.1780 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @SpellOfIniquity.1780 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    Remember, even max glass cannon Deadeye with malicious backstab barely cracked 14k backstabs on squishies pre-patch.

    ???

    Without context, I cant say if youre undergeared, if you got vulnerability bombed by a nearby scrapper or anything of the sort. Seriously people, without context damage number screenshots are worthless.

    Prepatch, I was on a zerk Necro, full ascended level 80. First hit I was not in Shroud and survived with like, 500 health. I entered Shroud and all the following hits were on my Shroud.

    I was going to say "how do the autos do that much damage", but if Im not mistaken, combat log doesnt include damage resistance from Shroud in its numbers, is it? Still, peculiar, this is higher than should be possible. Maybe he had stacked might somehow.

    I was Marked and instantly backstabbed, it wasn't a prolonged fight and they had no time to build Malice. I had another screenshot of being hit by the same Thief shortly before this.

    I haven't been hit anything close to this post patch but I'm just providing an example that it was more than possible prepatch. As of now I don't think I've been hit any higher than 10k by any Thieves, but some of them do still hit pretty hard.
    Also, I know I'm playing zerk and that's my own fault. I'm not one of the ones that was complaining about Thief in this thread, I'm just providing a relevant example.

    Well, lets just say this isnt a representative screenshot from pre-patch MBS Thieves. But I dont know how he upped his damage, so.

    Ah, found the un-cropped one. Property info says I took this December 15th 2019. Being Marked was instantly followed by Backstab, there was no combat in between. It was just a Thief lurking around near the keep in Stealth one shotting people. After the first time he got me I let him do it a few more times so I could check my combat log.

    MBS does not hit this hard anymore, but I'm pretty sure it can still get to 10, maybe even 15k under the right circumstances. Again though, not a complaint, just an observation with evidence from pre-patch.

    My Youtube: Coconut Racecar
    Necromancer | Maguuma | Diamond Legend
    [YWY] Weeping Valley | [tBag] Making Friends Everywhere I Go | [chi] Uhehehe

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 24, 2020

    @DeceiverX.8361 said:
    TL;DR for this thread is a bunch of people who do not play both classes are incredibly wrong about various mechanics about each class.

    Both have facets which are fundamentally busted, which prevent improvements elsewhere, and depending on the level of play and builds of both them and their respective opponents, will see massive sway in the matchups they face.

    The ranger has the higher skill floor/is more effective at its lowest skill level, and both have about the same skill ceiling in a duel assuming both are built optimally. Ranger generally favors group play with druid and the class's higher sustain and support overall, making it the better teamfighter. Thief gets the bonus of picking engagements and having better reset potential if it chooses to build for it, ESPECIALLY Deadeye, making it still more reliable to +1/gank on.

    Ranger has problems in matchups/certain-sized engagements where it can't out-trade, since so much damage is frontloaded, like bunker weaver. Thief has basically one and a half viable builds and lacks options to play aggressively, making it feel incredibly weak to some players who did so prior to the balance shakeup because those builds are now downright trash.

    There.
    /thread?

    Fully agree with u there, still i feel druid outside avatar form could have some QoL staff inprovements :\, as much i LOVE its elite being on avatar or no avatar form, 99% of the players i play that are druids tell me OMG ITS USELESS and im like kitten!!!???

    Staff 2 could become a ammonition based skill, staff one could heal more output and heals less for the caster since Druid already have a traait that heals when healing an ally, stuff like that.
    Avatar form is just excelent support ._. and 10 players affected.. dammn.. and people say its almost no support...
    Kinda reminds the players saying that Jalis from rev is ZERO support cause has no boons!

    Slayers [XD] NSP Guild
    Yao Chen Herald/Ventari
    Ying Wuxian Renegade/Demon

  • SpellOfIniquity.1780SpellOfIniquity.1780 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 25, 2020

    I just want to say that I made a Thief tonight and geared it up in Marauder/Valkyrie with Eagle runes. Using a core build with Critical Strikes/Trickery/Deadly Arts and taking Executioner I'm frequently hitting 10k Backstabs and Heartseekers as well as 5 - 7k Shadow Shots. The build I made is here.

    Despite how it might sound, I'm not complaining about this. Other classes/builds can also do very high damage and Thief is slightly leaning toward the "not so great" side right now, but still good. I just think some of the people here, and OP especially, need to understand that Thief is still perfectly capable having survivability and doing damage without doing a full zerk gimmick build, you just have to take actual damage related traits. Shadow Arts doesn't give you damage (go figure, it's a defensive tree) and neither does Improvisation (although with like 2 Stolen skills yes, this does add good damage).

    I think Thief could use a small boost in some areas, but in general it isn't nearly in as bad a state as some are claiming. I understand I haven't been playing Thief for years so I don't know all the nuances, but it isn't my first time playing it either, and I keep up with balance patches so I don't think what I'm saying is totally uneducated.

    My Youtube: Coconut Racecar
    Necromancer | Maguuma | Diamond Legend
    [YWY] Weeping Valley | [tBag] Making Friends Everywhere I Go | [chi] Uhehehe

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 25, 2020

    @Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @KrHome.1920 said:

    6k backstab @ 4k armor (screenshot)

    Possible with this build (max. potential is 7k damage at a 4k armor target):
    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PawAgqVlNwwYgsNGJOqLbtUA-zVIYR09XKNFC1mo9GBVUU2eSCj/W0fGA-w

    At the base armor of ~2k, this build deals 14k backstabs (I've witnessed these already, they exist!). Add the heartseeker to the typical D/P 5, 2 steal, hit combo and you've got your 20k opener. To make that clear: no prebuilt might, no prebuilt vulnerability! An opener in a 1v1 situation!

    No, it does not. Remember, even max glass cannon Deadeye with malicious backstab barely cracked 14k backstabs on squishies pre-patch. This build not only has lower damage than that build would have, backstab damage has since been reduced by 25%. This build probably does around 7k backstab on a squishy target, and a fractio nof that on a 4k armour target without nonsense setups.

    Did you actually play deadeye pre patch? My average malicious backstab pre patch hit for 17k, enough to one shot most thieves and any glass mesmer, ele, rev or ranger. That was from the old mark>signet>backstab combo so only 1 malice. A 3 malice DJ would hit about the same, you'd get the three malice from mark and precasting spotter's shot before the DJ which also gave fury for no quarter. A pre patch malicious backstab with full malice would hit between 19-26k damage depending on the opponents armor, and that was on full valk with hidden killer so full zerk with no quarter would hit even harder. The highest single hit I have achieved was a 7 malice DJ that hit some poor ele for 31k, that was on a mara/zerk build.

    I played the kind of class the Deadeye tried to kill. 14k was what Id take at worst. For me to get hit for 17k, Id probably have to have been playing my Mesmer in rare gear. Which, yknow, not the greatest idea for WvW anyway. Also why do you think Zerk would hit harder than Valk? The only difference is that you pick hidden killer over no quarter, which isnt much, especially because youd probably not even have fury by that point after it gets ripped once.

    The big differences post patch are;
    1) While you can still delete a glassy player easily, you now cannot one shot a character that is built to tank. Pre patch you could.
    2) In order to do more than 10k damage, you must either chain attacks with a CC as I do on power P/D, or build malice and go for a malicious backstab. No more 17k hits from stealth with only half a second's warning.

    The big differences is that damage got reduced from multiple angles. You couldnt oneshot a character that was built as a tank. In fact, you couldnt oneshot anything but squishies. Thats why permastealth one-shot MBS memes was, well, a meme build. It killed squishies and failed miserably against anyone else. It was a very bad build. Frustrating, yes. Unhealthy, certainly. But bad.

    All of these things are good for the health of the game, no? What has changed the most is the upfront damage when starting combat, and while this is the thief's strongest point it absolutely needed a nerf. Even post patch, I can get 15k DJ's on full malice (so malicious backstab will likely be around this mark too), 8-12k total damage from pistol sneak attack and 7-10k hits on shadow strike (P/D 3), and that's just the damage from the shot, with the stab you're looking closer to 12k max. Deadeye is still far from useless after these changes, it just requires you to play in a totally different way to daredevil, and that's what causes most people to write off the spec as weak. It really isn't.

    Yes, and no. While the MBS one-shot meme build was a meme and not a balance issue, it was incredibly frustrating and unhealthy, and needed to go. What I disagree with is how they went about doing it. By lowering damage across the board, now thief just doesnt really do damage unless you go for crit strikes, in which case you do damage ... until the enemy hits you once and all your modifiers turn off. Which is why crit strikes isnt viable outside of Rifle (which has other issues). Thieves damage now is jut too low to be a threat to a decent player. You wont get 8-12k hits from sneak attack or 7-10k hits from shadow strike (or anywhere near either of those) unless youre hitting a rare gear necro. With a non-CS build (CS is unplayable) against a normal enemy, the former will hit for around 3.8k, the latter for 4k.

    Deadeye actually does reasonable damage, its issue is that its too easily killed and the damage too easily avoided. Sure you get a bunch of skirmishers shot, but you cant reset your malice without hitting DJ. And DJ never hits. So once your initial barrage fails to kill the enemy (which it will), youre just kinda screwed. Worse yet if the enemy can prevent the initiative reset. People are correct to write off the spec as weak or useless (even as someone who sometimes plays it in WvW because thief is my PvE character I can see its both of those), even if their reasoning may be incorrect.

  • Jugglemonkey.8741Jugglemonkey.8741 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 25, 2020

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @KrHome.1920 said:

    6k backstab @ 4k armor (screenshot)

    Possible with this build (max. potential is 7k damage at a 4k armor target):
    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PawAgqVlNwwYgsNGJOqLbtUA-zVIYR09XKNFC1mo9GBVUU2eSCj/W0fGA-w

    At the base armor of ~2k, this build deals 14k backstabs (I've witnessed these already, they exist!). Add the heartseeker to the typical D/P 5, 2 steal, hit combo and you've got your 20k opener. To make that clear: no prebuilt might, no prebuilt vulnerability! An opener in a 1v1 situation!

    No, it does not. Remember, even max glass cannon Deadeye with malicious backstab barely cracked 14k backstabs on squishies pre-patch. This build not only has lower damage than that build would have, backstab damage has since been reduced by 25%. This build probably does around 7k backstab on a squishy target, and a fractio nof that on a 4k armour target without nonsense setups.

    Did you actually play deadeye pre patch? My average malicious backstab pre patch hit for 17k, enough to one shot most thieves and any glass mesmer, ele, rev or ranger. That was from the old mark>signet>backstab combo so only 1 malice. A 3 malice DJ would hit about the same, you'd get the three malice from mark and precasting spotter's shot before the DJ which also gave fury for no quarter. A pre patch malicious backstab with full malice would hit between 19-26k damage depending on the opponents armor, and that was on full valk with hidden killer so full zerk with no quarter would hit even harder. The highest single hit I have achieved was a 7 malice DJ that hit some poor ele for 31k, that was on a mara/zerk build.

    I played the kind of class the Deadeye tried to kill. 14k was what Id take at worst. For me to get hit for 17k, Id probably have to have been playing my Mesmer in rare gear. Which, yknow, not the greatest idea for WvW anyway. Also why do you think Zerk would hit harder than Valk? The only difference is that you pick hidden killer over no quarter, which isnt much, especially because youd probably not even have fury by that point after it gets ripped once.

    Well, all I can say is that your build was not fully optimised for damage, because the numbers I've quoted were the average experience if you built for it. These damage numbers were from builds with full ascended/legendary gear, full WvW power infusions, using a writ of masterful strength and using bloodlust & night sigils to boost damage further. The damage also depended on if you managed to burst while the 10 might from M7 was still active.

    Zerker hits harder than valk partially because of No Quarter, but also because of Practiced Tolerance converting precision into ferocity, something that valk doesn't make good use of. Full valk with scholar runes and CS 321 will give you 241% crit damage, full zerk gives you 251% crit damage because of the precision. This becomes 267% crit damage when taking No Quarter. Add impact & severance sigils with binding shadow for an interrupt and you can probably see how you will be dealing far more damage on zerk than you would on valk.

    Spotter's shot gives you fury on hit as well as immobilising the enemy, so that on top of Unrelenting Strikes and the fury from M7 gives you as much fury as you want in a rifle build. Valk is more reliable when bursting from stealth because of Hidden Killer, that plus the health boost makes it preferable if you want to deal the best damage with dagger. Taking Hidden Killer over No Quarter means fury access is irrelevant, so it's a trade off depending on whether you're building for rifle or for dagger based bursts.

    The big differences post patch are;
    1) While you can still delete a glassy player easily, you now cannot one shot a character that is built to tank. Pre patch you could.
    2) In order to do more than 10k damage, you must either chain attacks with a CC as I do on power P/D, or build malice and go for a malicious backstab. No more 17k hits from stealth with only half a second's warning.

    The big differences is that damage got reduced from multiple angles. You couldnt oneshot a character that was built as a tank. In fact, you couldnt oneshot anything but squishies. Thats why permastealth one-shot MBS memes was, well, a meme build. It killed squishies and failed miserably against anyone else. It was a very bad build. Frustrating, yes. Unhealthy, certainly. But bad.

    You could one shot a tanky build like a trailblazer mirage pre patch, but you would have to build malice with rifle and go for the backstab. It's not a one shot from stealth by that point though as the enemy will be fully aware of your presence, so I concede that point at least.

    All of these things are good for the health of the game, no? What has changed the most is the upfront damage when starting combat, and while this is the thief's strongest point it absolutely needed a nerf. Even post patch, I can get 15k DJ's on full malice (so malicious backstab will likely be around this mark too), 8-12k total damage from pistol sneak attack and 7-10k hits on shadow strike (P/D 3), and that's just the damage from the shot, with the stab you're looking closer to 12k max. Deadeye is still far from useless after these changes, it just requires you to play in a totally different way to daredevil, and that's what causes most people to write off the spec as weak. It really isn't.

    Yes, and no. While the MBS one-shot meme build was a meme and not a balance issue, it was incredibly frustrating and unhealthy, and needed to go. What I disagree with is how they went about doing it. By lowering damage across the board, now thief just doesnt really do damage unless you go for crit strikes, in which case you do damage ... until the enemy hits you once and all your modifiers turn off. Which is why crit strikes isnt viable outside of Rifle (which has other issues). Thieves damage now is jut too low to be a threat to a decent player. You wont get 8-12k hits from sneak attack or 7-10k hits from shadow strike (or anywhere near either of those) unless youre hitting a rare gear necro. With a non-CS build (CS is unplayable) against a normal enemy, the former will hit for around 3.8k, the latter for 4k.

    All I can tell you is to try it. I get those kind of hits hits on reapers, revenants, eles, rangers, thieves, warriors, anything that traditionally builds zerk or marauder. I actually one shot an ele not long back just from the pistol sneak attack, that did 12.5k damage across the 5 hits. Yes, you're not going to one shot a tanky build post patch, but you can sure rip a chunk of health off them if you choose to, and frankly I think that's a lot more balanced than it was given that if someone is tanky enough to shrug off my burst, odds are they can't chase me down and kill me either. Before the Feb balance patch, I have been hit for 20k vaults and backstabs from daredevil with no warning, so yes, I would actually consider the universal damage decrease a good thing.

    Deadeye actually does reasonable damage, its issue is that its too easily killed and the damage too easily avoided. Sure you get a bunch of skirmishers shot, but you cant reset your malice without hitting DJ. And DJ never hits. So once your initial barrage fails to kill the enemy (which it will), youre just kinda screwed. Worse yet if the enemy can prevent the initiative reset. People are correct to write off the spec as weak or useless (even as someone who sometimes plays it in WvW because thief is my PvE character I can see its both of those), even if their reasoning may be incorrect.

    Like I say, I use power P/D for the burst on my glass CS build. This has two benefits; firstly, the burst on P/D builds malice that allows me to have a second spike with DJ after they blow defensives to survive the first burst. Second, the pistol sneak attack allows for much easier malice resets as it's harder to avoid the pistol sneak attack than it is a DJ, but that is also irrelevant as I'm currently using BQoBK over M7. Yes, it is easily killed, but I am building to deal the maximum damage in a short burst (hence not taking M7), if I target something I aim to kill it before it's friends can help. If I wanted to skirmish, I'd build with Hidden Killer in CS, take M7 for the initiative, and take soldier gear instead of zerk to get a decent defence along with similar damage to a marauder build. Or take my celestial build and troll the hell out of everyone.

    TLDR; if you just stick to marauder gear, standard weapon sets and standard traits, yes, thief damage might feel underwhelming. You now need to invest into damage lines like CS or DA, sacrificing utility to get the really big hits, and that IMO is a good thing for the class as it makes more viable builds, depending on purpose.

    Critical Kit, Deadeye.
    “If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.” - John Steinbeck

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @KrHome.1920 said:

    6k backstab @ 4k armor (screenshot)

    Possible with this build (max. potential is 7k damage at a 4k armor target):
    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PawAgqVlNwwYgsNGJOqLbtUA-zVIYR09XKNFC1mo9GBVUU2eSCj/W0fGA-w

    At the base armor of ~2k, this build deals 14k backstabs (I've witnessed these already, they exist!). Add the heartseeker to the typical D/P 5, 2 steal, hit combo and you've got your 20k opener. To make that clear: no prebuilt might, no prebuilt vulnerability! An opener in a 1v1 situation!

    No, it does not. Remember, even max glass cannon Deadeye with malicious backstab barely cracked 14k backstabs on squishies pre-patch. This build not only has lower damage than that build would have, backstab damage has since been reduced by 25%. This build probably does around 7k backstab on a squishy target, and a fractio nof that on a 4k armour target without nonsense setups.

    Did you actually play deadeye pre patch? My average malicious backstab pre patch hit for 17k, enough to one shot most thieves and any glass mesmer, ele, rev or ranger. That was from the old mark>signet>backstab combo so only 1 malice. A 3 malice DJ would hit about the same, you'd get the three malice from mark and precasting spotter's shot before the DJ which also gave fury for no quarter. A pre patch malicious backstab with full malice would hit between 19-26k damage depending on the opponents armor, and that was on full valk with hidden killer so full zerk with no quarter would hit even harder. The highest single hit I have achieved was a 7 malice DJ that hit some poor ele for 31k, that was on a mara/zerk build.

    I played the kind of class the Deadeye tried to kill. 14k was what Id take at worst. For me to get hit for 17k, Id probably have to have been playing my Mesmer in rare gear. Which, yknow, not the greatest idea for WvW anyway. Also why do you think Zerk would hit harder than Valk? The only difference is that you pick hidden killer over no quarter, which isnt much, especially because youd probably not even have fury by that point after it gets ripped once.

    Well, all I can say is that your build was not fully optimised for damage, because the numbers I've quoted were the average experience if you built for it. These damage numbers were from builds with full ascended/legendary gear, full WvW power infusions, using a writ of masterful strength and using bloodlust & night sigils to boost damage further. The damage also depended on if you managed to burst while the 10 might from M7 was still active.

    I was the one being hit, not the one doing the hitting. Im not big on that playstyle. And yeah, unless youre suggesting every enemy I met wasnt optimised, I gotta disagree, because I was not hit that hard. Or even remotely. The 10 might might explain it, because there is no way to have 10 might for an out of stealth oneshot.

    Zerker hits harder than valk partially because of No Quarter, but also because of Practiced Tolerance converting precision into ferocity, something that valk doesn't make good use of. Full valk with scholar runes and CS 321 will give you 241% crit damage, full zerk gives you 251% crit damage because of the precision. This becomes 267% crit damage when taking No Quarter. Add impact & severance sigils with binding shadow for an interrupt and you can probably see how you will be dealing far more damage on zerk than you would on valk.

    Oh. Yeah thats a good point actually. Its not the biggest increase, but it does matter. Something like, relative to zerkers, an extra 4% or so?

    Spotter's shot gives you fury on hit as well as immobilising the enemy, so that on top of Unrelenting Strikes and the fury from M7 gives you as much fury as you want in a rifle build. Valk is more reliable when bursting from stealth because of Hidden Killer, that plus the health boost makes it preferable if you want to deal the best damage with dagger. Taking Hidden Killer over No Quarter means fury access is irrelevant, so it's a trade off depending on whether you're building for rifle or for dagger based bursts.

    You dont want to use spotters shot though. Its bad. Its slower and does half the damage of skirmishers shot. It also forces you to kneel, which is really bad. You just dont use it.

    The big differences post patch are;
    1) While you can still delete a glassy player easily, you now cannot one shot a character that is built to tank. Pre patch you could.
    2) In order to do more than 10k damage, you must either chain attacks with a CC as I do on power P/D, or build malice and go for a malicious backstab. No more 17k hits from stealth with only half a second's warning.

    The big differences is that damage got reduced from multiple angles. You couldnt oneshot a character that was built as a tank. In fact, you couldnt oneshot anything but squishies. Thats why permastealth one-shot MBS memes was, well, a meme build. It killed squishies and failed miserably against anyone else. It was a very bad build. Frustrating, yes. Unhealthy, certainly. But bad.

    You could one shot a tanky build like a trailblazer mirage pre patch, but you would have to build malice with rifle and go for the backstab. It's not a one shot from stealth by that point though as the enemy will be fully aware of your presence, so I concede that point at least.

    Oh yeah if were talking malicious backstab at max malice with all the multipliers inexplicably still active, its probably possible. I question what the hell the Mesmer was doing then though.

    All of these things are good for the health of the game, no? What has changed the most is the upfront damage when starting combat, and while this is the thief's strongest point it absolutely needed a nerf. Even post patch, I can get 15k DJ's on full malice (so malicious backstab will likely be around this mark too), 8-12k total damage from pistol sneak attack and 7-10k hits on shadow strike (P/D 3), and that's just the damage from the shot, with the stab you're looking closer to 12k max. Deadeye is still far from useless after these changes, it just requires you to play in a totally different way to daredevil, and that's what causes most people to write off the spec as weak. It really isn't.

    Yes, and no. While the MBS one-shot meme build was a meme and not a balance issue, it was incredibly frustrating and unhealthy, and needed to go. What I disagree with is how they went about doing it. By lowering damage across the board, now thief just doesnt really do damage unless you go for crit strikes, in which case you do damage ... until the enemy hits you once and all your modifiers turn off. Which is why crit strikes isnt viable outside of Rifle (which has other issues). Thieves damage now is jut too low to be a threat to a decent player. You wont get 8-12k hits from sneak attack or 7-10k hits from shadow strike (or anywhere near either of those) unless youre hitting a rare gear necro. With a non-CS build (CS is unplayable) against a normal enemy, the former will hit for around 3.8k, the latter for 4k.

    All I can tell you is to try it. I get those kind of hits hits on reapers, revenants, eles, rangers, thieves, warriors, anything that traditionally builds zerk or marauder. I actually one shot an ele not long back just from the pistol sneak attack, that did 12.5k damage across the 5 hits. Yes, you're not going to one shot a tanky build post patch, but you can sure rip a chunk of health off them if you choose to, and frankly I think that's a lot more balanced than it was given that if someone is tanky enough to shrug off my burst, odds are they can't chase me down and kill me either. Before the Feb balance patch, I have been hit for 20k vaults and backstabs from daredevil with no warning, so yes, I would actually consider the universal damage decrease a good thing.

    I mean, I play Deadeye occasionally. With Crit Strikes. Even Max Malice DJ rarely hits above 12k, let alone the 19k itd have to do if your sneak attack did 12.5k. And 20k vaults are extremely impossible.

    Deadeye actually does reasonable damage, its issue is that its too easily killed and the damage too easily avoided. Sure you get a bunch of skirmishers shot, but you cant reset your malice without hitting DJ. And DJ never hits. So once your initial barrage fails to kill the enemy (which it will), youre just kinda screwed. Worse yet if the enemy can prevent the initiative reset. People are correct to write off the spec as weak or useless (even as someone who sometimes plays it in WvW because thief is my PvE character I can see its both of those), even if their reasoning may be incorrect.

    Like I say, I use power P/D for the burst on my glass CS build. This has two benefits; firstly, the burst on P/D builds malice that allows me to have a second spike with DJ after they blow defensives to survive the first burst. Second, the pistol sneak attack allows for much easier malice resets as it's harder to avoid the pistol sneak attack than it is a DJ, but that is also irrelevant as I'm currently using BQoBK over M7. Yes, it is easily killed, but I am building to deal the maximum damage in a short burst (hence not taking M7), if I target something I aim to kill it before it's friends can help. If I wanted to skirmish, I'd build with Hidden Killer in CS, take M7 for the initiative, and take soldier gear instead of zerk to get a decent defence along with similar damage to a marauder build. Or take my celestial build and troll the hell out of everyone.

    Hm, thats actually a thought. If it werent for the fact that pistol doesnt have anything good to dump initiative into, its easy resets would make it a decent M7 spammer. Its a shame they nerfed unload into complete unviability. Anyway, your build should still fail to burst hard at all against properly geared players, and fail to 1v1 as your damage modifiers are quickly turned off one by one. You dont kill, and you might well die.

    TLDR; if you just stick to marauder gear, standard weapon sets and standard traits, yes, thief damage might feel underwhelming. You now need to invest into damage lines like CS or DA, sacrificing utility to get the really big hits, and that IMO is a good thing for the class as it makes more viable builds, depending on purpose.

    I play Zerker Crit Strikes DE sometimes (its my PvE character and I got the gear anyway). The damage is still underwhelming against a good player who knows that you can dodge DJ. Or avoid my skirmishers shot. And thats the highest damage potential. Anything below that does even worse damage. Its just not good, thats why when people complain about thief, they say that thief is annoying, not threatening.

  • @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @KrHome.1920 said:

    6k backstab @ 4k armor (screenshot)

    Possible with this build (max. potential is 7k damage at a 4k armor target):
    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PawAgqVlNwwYgsNGJOqLbtUA-zVIYR09XKNFC1mo9GBVUU2eSCj/W0fGA-w

    At the base armor of ~2k, this build deals 14k backstabs (I've witnessed these already, they exist!). Add the heartseeker to the typical D/P 5, 2 steal, hit combo and you've got your 20k opener. To make that clear: no prebuilt might, no prebuilt vulnerability! An opener in a 1v1 situation!

    No, it does not. Remember, even max glass cannon Deadeye with malicious backstab barely cracked 14k backstabs on squishies pre-patch. This build not only has lower damage than that build would have, backstab damage has since been reduced by 25%. This build probably does around 7k backstab on a squishy target, and a fractio nof that on a 4k armour target without nonsense setups.

    Did you actually play deadeye pre patch? My average malicious backstab pre patch hit for 17k, enough to one shot most thieves and any glass mesmer, ele, rev or ranger. That was from the old mark>signet>backstab combo so only 1 malice. A 3 malice DJ would hit about the same, you'd get the three malice from mark and precasting spotter's shot before the DJ which also gave fury for no quarter. A pre patch malicious backstab with full malice would hit between 19-26k damage depending on the opponents armor, and that was on full valk with hidden killer so full zerk with no quarter would hit even harder. The highest single hit I have achieved was a 7 malice DJ that hit some poor ele for 31k, that was on a mara/zerk build.

    I played the kind of class the Deadeye tried to kill. 14k was what Id take at worst. For me to get hit for 17k, Id probably have to have been playing my Mesmer in rare gear. Which, yknow, not the greatest idea for WvW anyway. Also why do you think Zerk would hit harder than Valk? The only difference is that you pick hidden killer over no quarter, which isnt much, especially because youd probably not even have fury by that point after it gets ripped once.

    Well, all I can say is that your build was not fully optimised for damage, because the numbers I've quoted were the average experience if you built for it. These damage numbers were from builds with full ascended/legendary gear, full WvW power infusions, using a writ of masterful strength and using bloodlust & night sigils to boost damage further. The damage also depended on if you managed to burst while the 10 might from M7 was still active.

    I was the one being hit, not the one doing the hitting. Im not big on that playstyle. And yeah, unless youre suggesting every enemy I met wasnt optimised, I gotta disagree, because I was not hit that hard. Or even remotely. The 10 might might explain it, because there is no way to have 10 might for an out of stealth oneshot.

    Sorry, I keep forgetting that you don't play thief as a main haha. The thing is, you might be running a build that is not the average insert profession here build, so if you play more tanky than the average player you will have a systemic bias in one direction based on that. And yeah, I am describing hits from builds that are optimised for particular attacks. If someone is playing a more rounded build, you'd expect the damage to be lower as a result.

    Zerker hits harder than valk partially because of No Quarter, but also because of Practiced Tolerance converting precision into ferocity, something that valk doesn't make good use of. Full valk with scholar runes and CS 321 will give you 241% crit damage, full zerk gives you 251% crit damage because of the precision. This becomes 267% crit damage when taking No Quarter. Add impact & severance sigils with binding shadow for an interrupt and you can probably see how you will be dealing far more damage on zerk than you would on valk.

    Oh. Yeah thats a good point actually. Its not the biggest increase, but it does matter. Something like, relative to zerkers, an extra 4% or so?

    I'm not actually sure how much damage it adds overall, but given that damage % modifiers like scholar runes, force/night/impact sigil and traits all stack multiplicatively and given the fact DJ and malicious backstab have such high damage numbers, even a relatively small % damage increase can add 1-2k to the strike. More so pre patch, where the numbers were even higher.

    Spotter's shot gives you fury on hit as well as immobilising the enemy, so that on top of Unrelenting Strikes and the fury from M7 gives you as much fury as you want in a rifle build. Valk is more reliable when bursting from stealth because of Hidden Killer, that plus the health boost makes it preferable if you want to deal the best damage with dagger. Taking Hidden Killer over No Quarter means fury access is irrelevant, so it's a trade off depending on whether you're building for rifle or for dagger based bursts.

    You dont want to use spotters shot though. Its bad. Its slower and does half the damage of skirmishers shot. It also forces you to kneel, which is really bad. You just dont use it.

    Depends how you use it. I was using one spotter's shot to set up the DJ with a fury proc and an immob on the target, thet damage was nice (seen it hit 7k pre patch) but it was secondary to the 17k DJ it allowed me to hit. Also, it actually does more damage per hit but less damage over time, so again, how good it is it depends on what the goal is. If I just want to damage down something quickly I'd use skirmisher's shot, but in the context of using the skill once before a DJ, spotter's shot is better.

    As for kneel, because of the flight time of DJ, by the time it hits/misses I am already going to be halfway through the self reveal applied at the beginning of the skill. Add to that the fact that stealth from Silent Scope is applied at the end of the dodge (meaning I can dodge just under 0.5s before reveal expires and still stealth at the end of the dodge), then add to that the dodge from the other player, and you have less time being vulnerable than you might think from the 3s reveal timer. Yeah, kneel is a risk, but used wisely it is still useful.

    The big differences post patch are;
    1) While you can still delete a glassy player easily, you now cannot one shot a character that is built to tank. Pre patch you could.
    2) In order to do more than 10k damage, you must either chain attacks with a CC as I do on power P/D, or build malice and go for a malicious backstab. No more 17k hits from stealth with only half a second's warning.

    The big differences is that damage got reduced from multiple angles. You couldnt oneshot a character that was built as a tank. In fact, you couldnt oneshot anything but squishies. Thats why permastealth one-shot MBS memes was, well, a meme build. It killed squishies and failed miserably against anyone else. It was a very bad build. Frustrating, yes. Unhealthy, certainly. But bad.

    You could one shot a tanky build like a trailblazer mirage pre patch, but you would have to build malice with rifle and go for the backstab. It's not a one shot from stealth by that point though as the enemy will be fully aware of your presence, so I concede that point at least.

    Oh yeah if were talking malicious backstab at max malice with all the multipliers inexplicably still active, its probably possible. I question what the hell the Mesmer was doing then though.

    The mesmer I had in mind actually played excellently through the whole fight, he was a total pain in the butt to build malice against and I backstabbed into distortion several times before eventually landing it. Unfortunately for him, when it did land it did 25k damage, so it ended the fight there and then. He whispered me afterwards and was pretty cool about it despite being frustrated initially haha.

    All of these things are good for the health of the game, no? What has changed the most is the upfront damage when starting combat, and while this is the thief's strongest point it absolutely needed a nerf. Even post patch, I can get 15k DJ's on full malice (so malicious backstab will likely be around this mark too), 8-12k total damage from pistol sneak attack and 7-10k hits on shadow strike (P/D 3), and that's just the damage from the shot, with the stab you're looking closer to 12k max. Deadeye is still far from useless after these changes, it just requires you to play in a totally different way to daredevil, and that's what causes most people to write off the spec as weak. It really isn't.

    Yes, and no. While the MBS one-shot meme build was a meme and not a balance issue, it was incredibly frustrating and unhealthy, and needed to go. What I disagree with is how they went about doing it. By lowering damage across the board, now thief just doesnt really do damage unless you go for crit strikes, in which case you do damage ... until the enemy hits you once and all your modifiers turn off. Which is why crit strikes isnt viable outside of Rifle (which has other issues). Thieves damage now is jut too low to be a threat to a decent player. You wont get 8-12k hits from sneak attack or 7-10k hits from shadow strike (or anywhere near either of those) unless youre hitting a rare gear necro. With a non-CS build (CS is unplayable) against a normal enemy, the former will hit for around 3.8k, the latter for 4k.

    All I can tell you is to try it. I get those kind of hits hits on reapers, revenants, eles, rangers, thieves, warriors, anything that traditionally builds zerk or marauder. I actually one shot an ele not long back just from the pistol sneak attack, that did 12.5k damage across the 5 hits. Yes, you're not going to one shot a tanky build post patch, but you can sure rip a chunk of health off them if you choose to, and frankly I think that's a lot more balanced than it was given that if someone is tanky enough to shrug off my burst, odds are they can't chase me down and kill me either. Before the Feb balance patch, I have been hit for 20k vaults and backstabs from daredevil with no warning, so yes, I would actually consider the universal damage decrease a good thing.

    I mean, I play Deadeye occasionally. With Crit Strikes. Even Max Malice DJ rarely hits above 12k, let alone the 19k itd have to do if your sneak attack did 12.5k. And 20k vaults are extremely impossible.

    Yeah, DJ is one of the hardest hitting single strikes, but it's not always the hardest hitting single skill. Pistol sneak attack will do that 8-12k damage regardless of malice on my build because it's based on the power multiplier, not malice, so while I do have to follow it with a shadow strike (P/D 3) and sometimes repeater (rollover skill for P/D 3) to get the kill, if you set it up with a binding shadow knockdown you'd be surprised how effective it actually is. This is my build, if you're interested;
    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PawAQpjlFwgYbMLmJW2O/vSA-zVZYBhZF0nYUvALmmSgwigMLqaDheDUbPAB83SVKYA-w

    As for the vault damage, yeah, I'm talking pre february patch for those numbers. I used to be able to get 10-12k pretty easily on a balanced build back then, and even now it can hit for 6-7k on a balanced build so you'd be surprised how much it could actually do.

    Deadeye actually does reasonable damage, its issue is that its too easily killed and the damage too easily avoided. Sure you get a bunch of skirmishers shot, but you cant reset your malice without hitting DJ. And DJ never hits. So once your initial barrage fails to kill the enemy (which it will), youre just kinda screwed. Worse yet if the enemy can prevent the initiative reset. People are correct to write off the spec as weak or useless (even as someone who sometimes plays it in WvW because thief is my PvE character I can see its both of those), even if their reasoning may be incorrect.

    Like I say, I use power P/D for the burst on my glass CS build. This has two benefits; firstly, the burst on P/D builds malice that allows me to have a second spike with DJ after they blow defensives to survive the first burst. Second, the pistol sneak attack allows for much easier malice resets as it's harder to avoid the pistol sneak attack than it is a DJ, but that is also irrelevant as I'm currently using BQoBK over M7. Yes, it is easily killed, but I am building to deal the maximum damage in a short burst (hence not taking M7), if I target something I aim to kill it before it's friends can help. If I wanted to skirmish, I'd build with Hidden Killer in CS, take M7 for the initiative, and take soldier gear instead of zerk to get a decent defence along with similar damage to a marauder build. Or take my celestial build and troll the hell out of everyone.

    Hm, thats actually a thought. If it werent for the fact that pistol doesnt have anything good to dump initiative into, its easy resets would make it a decent M7 spammer. Its a shame they nerfed unload into complete unviability. Anyway, your build should still fail to burst hard at all against properly geared players, and fail to 1v1 as your damage modifiers are quickly turned off one by one. You dont kill, and you might well die.

    That's why I use P/D over P/P; repeater is actually really, really good damage for what it is and a very cheap way to build malice. As for the build, I'd just say try it and see. It's probably pretty obvious, but you want to mark>binding shadow>pistol sneak attack>shadow strike>repeater. Engaging like this means by the time the enemy has recovered (if they don't die before the first repeater, you'd be surprised the damage the combo does) you can dodge, swap weapon mid dodge to rifle for stealth, port into the enemies' blind spot with shadowstep and DJ, more often than not it will catch them out. Portal is there because it's too good not to, and I swap to a tanky D/P build to apply stealth to set up the initial attack. You have one or two bursts before you need to disengage, and enemies with plenty of reflects will just /laugh, but every build has downsides, and I'm fine with these ones given the potential damage it can do.

    TLDR; if you just stick to marauder gear, standard weapon sets and standard traits, yes, thief damage might feel underwhelming. You now need to invest into damage lines like CS or DA, sacrificing utility to get the really big hits, and that IMO is a good thing for the class as it makes more viable builds, depending on purpose.

    I play Zerker Crit Strikes DE sometimes (its my PvE character and I got the gear anyway). The damage is still underwhelming against a good player who knows that you can dodge DJ. Or avoid my skirmishers shot. And thats the highest damage potential. Anything below that does even worse damage. Its just not good, thats why when people complain about thief, they say that thief is annoying, not threatening.

    Critical Kit, Deadeye.
    “If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.” - John Steinbeck

  • aspirine.6852aspirine.6852 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Would be great if rangers do double damage against thiefs..

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @KrHome.1920 said:

    6k backstab @ 4k armor (screenshot)

    Possible with this build (max. potential is 7k damage at a 4k armor target):
    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PawAgqVlNwwYgsNGJOqLbtUA-zVIYR09XKNFC1mo9GBVUU2eSCj/W0fGA-w

    At the base armor of ~2k, this build deals 14k backstabs (I've witnessed these already, they exist!). Add the heartseeker to the typical D/P 5, 2 steal, hit combo and you've got your 20k opener. To make that clear: no prebuilt might, no prebuilt vulnerability! An opener in a 1v1 situation!

    No, it does not. Remember, even max glass cannon Deadeye with malicious backstab barely cracked 14k backstabs on squishies pre-patch. This build not only has lower damage than that build would have, backstab damage has since been reduced by 25%. This build probably does around 7k backstab on a squishy target, and a fractio nof that on a 4k armour target without nonsense setups.

    Did you actually play deadeye pre patch? My average malicious backstab pre patch hit for 17k, enough to one shot most thieves and any glass mesmer, ele, rev or ranger. That was from the old mark>signet>backstab combo so only 1 malice. A 3 malice DJ would hit about the same, you'd get the three malice from mark and precasting spotter's shot before the DJ which also gave fury for no quarter. A pre patch malicious backstab with full malice would hit between 19-26k damage depending on the opponents armor, and that was on full valk with hidden killer so full zerk with no quarter would hit even harder. The highest single hit I have achieved was a 7 malice DJ that hit some poor ele for 31k, that was on a mara/zerk build.

    I played the kind of class the Deadeye tried to kill. 14k was what Id take at worst. For me to get hit for 17k, Id probably have to have been playing my Mesmer in rare gear. Which, yknow, not the greatest idea for WvW anyway. Also why do you think Zerk would hit harder than Valk? The only difference is that you pick hidden killer over no quarter, which isnt much, especially because youd probably not even have fury by that point after it gets ripped once.

    Well, all I can say is that your build was not fully optimised for damage, because the numbers I've quoted were the average experience if you built for it. These damage numbers were from builds with full ascended/legendary gear, full WvW power infusions, using a writ of masterful strength and using bloodlust & night sigils to boost damage further. The damage also depended on if you managed to burst while the 10 might from M7 was still active.

    I was the one being hit, not the one doing the hitting. Im not big on that playstyle. And yeah, unless youre suggesting every enemy I met wasnt optimised, I gotta disagree, because I was not hit that hard. Or even remotely. The 10 might might explain it, because there is no way to have 10 might for an out of stealth oneshot.

    Sorry, I keep forgetting that you don't play thief as a main haha. The thing is, you might be running a build that is not the average insert profession here build, so if you play more tanky than the average player you will have a systemic bias in one direction based on that. And yeah, I am describing hits from builds that are optimised for particular attacks. If someone is playing a more rounded build, you'd expect the damage to be lower as a result.

    Used to, but long gave up. And eh, I mean I do have some defenses in my Engineer build, but no passive damage reduction I can think of. Elixir E gives protection, but you dont get the elixir effect until after its popped, so it cant affect backstab. Unless I changed something and forgot about it. Not impossible, just seems unlikely.

    Zerker hits harder than valk partially because of No Quarter, but also because of Practiced Tolerance converting precision into ferocity, something that valk doesn't make good use of. Full valk with scholar runes and CS 321 will give you 241% crit damage, full zerk gives you 251% crit damage because of the precision. This becomes 267% crit damage when taking No Quarter. Add impact & severance sigils with binding shadow for an interrupt and you can probably see how you will be dealing far more damage on zerk than you would on valk.

    Oh. Yeah thats a good point actually. Its not the biggest increase, but it does matter. Something like, relative to zerkers, an extra 4% or so?

    I'm not actually sure how much damage it adds overall, but given that damage % modifiers like scholar runes, force/night/impact sigil and traits all stack multiplicatively and given the fact DJ and malicious backstab have such high damage numbers, even a relatively small % damage increase can add 1-2k to the strike. More so pre patch, where the numbers were even higher.

    Well, it increases ferocity, so the damage increase is Zerk ferocity/Valk Ferocity -1. I got 4%. Since the rest is multiplicative, you can just re-order them so that ferocity is last, bracket everything else and treat it as constant, so its just that difference. 4% is not nothing, but with 10k damage is 400 damage. So not that big.

    Spotter's shot gives you fury on hit as well as immobilising the enemy, so that on top of Unrelenting Strikes and the fury from M7 gives you as much fury as you want in a rifle build. Valk is more reliable when bursting from stealth because of Hidden Killer, that plus the health boost makes it preferable if you want to deal the best damage with dagger. Taking Hidden Killer over No Quarter means fury access is irrelevant, so it's a trade off depending on whether you're building for rifle or for dagger based bursts.

    You dont want to use spotters shot though. Its bad. Its slower and does half the damage of skirmishers shot. It also forces you to kneel, which is really bad. You just dont use it.

    Depends how you use it. I was using one spotter's shot to set up the DJ with a fury proc and an immob on the target, thet damage was nice (seen it hit 7k pre patch) but it was secondary to the 17k DJ it allowed me to hit. Also, it actually does more damage per hit but less damage over time, so again, how good it is it depends on what the goal is. If I just want to damage down something quickly I'd use skirmisher's shot, but in the context of using the skill once before a DJ, spotter's shot is better.

    No it does less damage per hit too. Its 0.4 scaling vs 0.8 scaling, with a 50% longer cast time. Youre probably thinking of the PvE damage number, which is 1.3, but that was always exclusive to PvE.

    As for kneel, because of the flight time of DJ, by the time it hits/misses I am already going to be halfway through the self reveal applied at the beginning of the skill. Add to that the fact that stealth from Silent Scope is applied at the end of the dodge (meaning I can dodge just under 0.5s before reveal expires and still stealth at the end of the dodge), then add to that the dodge from the other player, and you have less time being vulnerable than you might think from the 3s reveal timer. Yeah, kneel is a risk, but used wisely it is still useful.

    Kneels issue is that kneeling and unkneeling is slow, and there is nothing to be gained from it. Its low damage. Spotters shot is not good enough as a setup, because cleanses (especially for immob) are ubiquitous, and the enemy can still block (Which is also fairly common) or use a non-dodge evade.

    The big differences post patch are;
    1) While you can still delete a glassy player easily, you now cannot one shot a character that is built to tank. Pre patch you could.
    2) In order to do more than 10k damage, you must either chain attacks with a CC as I do on power P/D, or build malice and go for a malicious backstab. No more 17k hits from stealth with only half a second's warning.

    The big differences is that damage got reduced from multiple angles. You couldnt oneshot a character that was built as a tank. In fact, you couldnt oneshot anything but squishies. Thats why permastealth one-shot MBS memes was, well, a meme build. It killed squishies and failed miserably against anyone else. It was a very bad build. Frustrating, yes. Unhealthy, certainly. But bad.

    You could one shot a tanky build like a trailblazer mirage pre patch, but you would have to build malice with rifle and go for the backstab. It's not a one shot from stealth by that point though as the enemy will be fully aware of your presence, so I concede that point at least.

    Oh yeah if were talking malicious backstab at max malice with all the multipliers inexplicably still active, its probably possible. I question what the hell the Mesmer was doing then though.

    The mesmer I had in mind actually played excellently through the whole fight, he was a total pain in the butt to build malice against and I backstabbed into distortion several times before eventually landing it. Unfortunately for him, when it did land it did 25k damage, so it ended the fight there and then. He whispered me afterwards and was pretty cool about it despite being frustrated initially haha.

    I meant more that that kinda number relies on the multipliers being active, but just being hit below 90% hp (with that kind of a build not exactly hard) is enough to turn off a bunch of them.

    All of these things are good for the health of the game, no? What has changed the most is the upfront damage when starting combat, and while this is the thief's strongest point it absolutely needed a nerf. Even post patch, I can get 15k DJ's on full malice (so malicious backstab will likely be around this mark too), 8-12k total damage from pistol sneak attack and 7-10k hits on shadow strike (P/D 3), and that's just the damage from the shot, with the stab you're looking closer to 12k max. Deadeye is still far from useless after these changes, it just requires you to play in a totally different way to daredevil, and that's what causes most people to write off the spec as weak. It really isn't.

    Yes, and no. While the MBS one-shot meme build was a meme and not a balance issue, it was incredibly frustrating and unhealthy, and needed to go. What I disagree with is how they went about doing it. By lowering damage across the board, now thief just doesnt really do damage unless you go for crit strikes, in which case you do damage ... until the enemy hits you once and all your modifiers turn off. Which is why crit strikes isnt viable outside of Rifle (which has other issues). Thieves damage now is jut too low to be a threat to a decent player. You wont get 8-12k hits from sneak attack or 7-10k hits from shadow strike (or anywhere near either of those) unless youre hitting a rare gear necro. With a non-CS build (CS is unplayable) against a normal enemy, the former will hit for around 3.8k, the latter for 4k.

    All I can tell you is to try it. I get those kind of hits hits on reapers, revenants, eles, rangers, thieves, warriors, anything that traditionally builds zerk or marauder. I actually one shot an ele not long back just from the pistol sneak attack, that did 12.5k damage across the 5 hits. Yes, you're not going to one shot a tanky build post patch, but you can sure rip a chunk of health off them if you choose to, and frankly I think that's a lot more balanced than it was given that if someone is tanky enough to shrug off my burst, odds are they can't chase me down and kill me either. Before the Feb balance patch, I have been hit for 20k vaults and backstabs from daredevil with no warning, so yes, I would actually consider the universal damage decrease a good thing.

    I mean, I play Deadeye occasionally. With Crit Strikes. Even Max Malice DJ rarely hits above 12k, let alone the 19k itd have to do if your sneak attack did 12.5k. And 20k vaults are extremely impossible.

    Yeah, DJ is one of the hardest hitting single strikes, but it's not always the hardest hitting single skill. Pistol sneak attack will do that 8-12k damage regardless of malice on my build because it's based on the power multiplier, not malice, so while I do have to follow it with a shadow strike (P/D 3) and sometimes repeater (rollover skill for P/D 3) to get the kill, if you set it up with a binding shadow knockdown you'd be surprised how effective it actually is. This is my build, if you're interested;
    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PawAQpjlFwgYbMLmJW2O/vSA-zVZYBhZF0nYUvALmmSgwigMLqaDheDUbPAB83SVKYA-w

    What I meant is, max malice DJ has a 2.255 scaling, which is just over 50% more than Sneak Attacks 1.5 scaling. So if you managed to hit a 12k sneak attack, that would mean 19k Deaths Judgments are possible. I have yet to get one, even with 25 might off of M7. So unless youre getting flat per hit damage, I dont think its possible.

    As for the vault damage, yeah, I'm talking pre february patch for those numbers. I used to be able to get 10-12k pretty easily on a balanced build back then, and even now it can hit for 6-7k on a balanced build so you'd be surprised how much it could actually do.

    Even pre-february patch that seems impossible. Vault scaling was below regular backstab, let alone MBS backstab. For it to hit 20k, idk, youd probably need rare gear necro and max vuln/might.

    Deadeye actually does reasonable damage, its issue is that its too easily killed and the damage too easily avoided. Sure you get a bunch of skirmishers shot, but you cant reset your malice without hitting DJ. And DJ never hits. So once your initial barrage fails to kill the enemy (which it will), youre just kinda screwed. Worse yet if the enemy can prevent the initiative reset. People are correct to write off the spec as weak or useless (even as someone who sometimes plays it in WvW because thief is my PvE character I can see its both of those), even if their reasoning may be incorrect.

    Like I say, I use power P/D for the burst on my glass CS build. This has two benefits; firstly, the burst on P/D builds malice that allows me to have a second spike with DJ after they blow defensives to survive the first burst. Second, the pistol sneak attack allows for much easier malice resets as it's harder to avoid the pistol sneak attack than it is a DJ, but that is also irrelevant as I'm currently using BQoBK over M7. Yes, it is easily killed, but I am building to deal the maximum damage in a short burst (hence not taking M7), if I target something I aim to kill it before it's friends can help. If I wanted to skirmish, I'd build with Hidden Killer in CS, take M7 for the initiative, and take soldier gear instead of zerk to get a decent defence along with similar damage to a marauder build. Or take my celestial build and troll the hell out of everyone.

    Hm, thats actually a thought. If it werent for the fact that pistol doesnt have anything good to dump initiative into, its easy resets would make it a decent M7 spammer. Its a shame they nerfed unload into complete unviability. Anyway, your build should still fail to burst hard at all against properly geared players, and fail to 1v1 as your damage modifiers are quickly turned off one by one. You dont kill, and you might well die.

    That's why I use P/D over P/P; repeater is actually really, really good damage for what it is and a very cheap way to build malice. As for the build, I'd just say try it and see. It's probably pretty obvious, but you want to mark>binding shadow>pistol sneak attack>shadow strike>repeater. Engaging like this means by the time the enemy has recovered (if they don't die before the first repeater, you'd be surprised the damage the combo does) you can dodge, swap weapon mid dodge to rifle for stealth, port into the enemies' blind spot with shadowstep and DJ, more often than not it will catch them out. Portal is there because it's too good not to, and I swap to a tanky D/P build to apply stealth to set up the initial attack. You have one or two bursts before you need to disengage, and enemies with plenty of reflects will just /laugh, but every build has downsides, and I'm fine with these ones given the potential damage it can do.

    I can see the logic, though your damage is a lot lower than Unload (but I guess you can use it more often). My other issue is that you have to get into melee to be able to repeater spam in the first place, and without a teleport on steal to get that. Seems too easily punished.

    TLDR; if you just stick to marauder gear, standard weapon sets and standard traits, yes, thief damage might feel underwhelming. You now need to invest into damage lines like CS or DA, sacrificing utility to get the really big hits, and that IMO is a good thing for the class as it makes more viable builds, depending on purpose.

    I play Zerker Crit Strikes DE sometimes (its my PvE character and I got the gear anyway). The damage is still underwhelming against a good player who knows that you can dodge DJ. Or avoid my skirmishers shot. And thats the highest damage potential. Anything below that does even worse damage. Its just not good, thats why when people complain about thief, they say that thief is annoying, not threatening.

  • Most ranger burst roots them to the ground you can ignore their imob as unlike ranger you have shadow step you can use shortbow 5 to outrun essentially every class. Ranger has issue it lose alot of dmg for sustain a death judgement can kill un weary ranger no a druid ranger is weaker as pets is hardly working well as their ai is poor so yes a ranger could burst if you just stand still auto attacking a slb can atleast lb has 2 ok skills rapid fire cant follow very well then you move and you got a projectilr block on rifle in sniper mode . A theif can actually oneshot many classes. Rangers are easy to counter as most play same way . Same or similar builds due to the limits a ranger cant hurt you while moving but you can still teleport faster you also gain movement speed in stealth and can perma stealth wich ranger cant they can max stealth 12 seconds or so if i am not wrong with trapper runes and cele and hunters vs you 30sec stealth and trap rangers wont deal bursts

  • InsaneQR.7412InsaneQR.7412 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The following points to adress:

    Ranger has more mobility: Wrong, Thief has the highest number of shadowstep abilities and dodge abilities in the game.

    Ranger has more stealth: Wrong , ranger has one stealth ability on LB, one on a porcine pet skill and they can combo finish in one smokefield also geberated by 1 single pet.
    Thief has a plethora of pure stealth skills and smokefields they can easily combo with. Thief is the only class were perma stealth is possible.

    Ranger has more healing: Somewhat true. Druid for sure. Ranger has good sustain in general. But thief has a lot of self heal in shadow arts so they can keep up easily when build right.
    Ranger has more burst? Depends. Ranger has good and strong burst but also predictable at that. Thief can deal tons of damage from stealth. I would argue they are on oar with eachother but this is something that has to be tested.

    LB does autotrack stealth: This is true and should be fixed.

    LB is better than riffle at range: Also true. LB is more mobile than riffle and has a higher range if you look at projectile drop off. But this is not a problem with LB but rather riffle. If you balance the riffle capabbilities with the theifs stealth capabbilities it can still outshine a ranger. It is just harder to pull off, but not less potent and has a differnet playstyle than just pewpew from range. It needs setup.

    Ranger has 2 small invulnerability skills that can be easily avoided by not plastering your CDs on an invulnerable ranger.

    Ranger has a pet: Fantastic observation. It is useless in PvP except the utility it brings. Kill it first (which is pretty easy to do) that forces any soulbeast to merge and prevents them from smokefielding and stealthing.

    Ranger has a good amounts of stability yes. Stab that can easily been ripped by boonrip of the thief which is a firect counterplay.

    I understand your frustration, but i advice to get more experience with both classes for a better understanding of how to counter each.

    Sincerely.