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Fractal KP - Yes or No?

Friday.7864Friday.7864 Member ✭✭✭

EDIT: Killproof doesn't have to be an item you can ping and fake. You can comment your suggestions below. For now even an item would be better than nothing as a short term solution.
EDIT 2: So the conclusion seems to be that the KP we want are in fact several new titles so we can show off how many times we cleared a CM (instead of getting the old KP back)

Would you like to have it back or not?
I mean, there's nothing toxic about wanting to do content with players of a similar skill level.
It's borderline harassment when Anet is trying to push experienced players into doing CMs with clueless people.
End game content simply has some prerequisites. Why is it ok for Anet to do their hardest to match players of similar skill in PvP, without caring much who I end up doing end game fractals with?
Why not encourage training runs? Give currency for failed runs too like in raids or something. Use your imagination instead of inconveniencing others.

There are many, many problems with fractal newbies and there's nothing wrong with refusing to carry them or with refusing to teach them if it is not a training run!
Some of the issues with people trying to join CMs:

  • Many don't even know the basics of their class. Rotation? What's that? If a fractal has DPS checks and a player doesn't know how to dps we have nothing to discuss.
  • Many just want to rush in. At least checking a video to learn about mechanics? Nah.
  • The idea of joining a training run at least once or asking for it in their guilds? Unheard of.
  • Many of them don't even communicate! They just fail again and again without asking why, get kicked and whine about it. Lack of communication is a reportable offense in some MMOs!

In content where one person can end up wiping an entire party there is no room for randomly throwing parties together.
KP in its current state (pinging items) is at least a somewhat useful indicator of a person's experience in certain content.
Sure, it's not perfect but the pros outweigh the cons imo. An improved system would be even better.
I come home from work, have limited time to play and want to do a somewhat clean CM run. It's not okay for a random clueless guy(s) to keep ruining that run for me.
Personally I'm lucky to have a static, but if I can't play when they can, I'll be forced to LFG and more often than not encounter some of the issues above! It is not ok to proliferate such situations.

Fractal KP - Yes or No? 105 votes

Yes
53% 56 votes
No
46% 49 votes

Comments

  • Fir.7932Fir.7932 Member ✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    I voted no, "Kill Proof" as an item that can be pinged isn't something I want in the game. However, a better way of showing experience that doesn't involve chat codes and cannot be faked, is something I'd like to have, while at the same time reducing clutter and inventory space requirements. Like pinging the "KP" from inside the wallet.

    I believe at least half of us who voted "no" don't want item but some other way of proving experience, but still agree with the need of some kind of kp

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 17, 2020

    I do think some sort of rough experience measuring method for players of equal skill and experience levels to find each other is valuable.
    I know some people find the idea of no KP like system appealing, thinking they can get into every group without having put the work in and having the skill for it, but that only holds up until you join some super elitist group (which previously could gate heavily with insane KP requirements) which instantly flames and kicks you after one misstep, which isn't beneficial either for you nor them.

    Let people play with whom they want to play with. Otherwise there is just going to be more tension and toxicity and burn out.

    I still think the best system would be a multi tiered title giving achievement for things like Fractal CM's and Raids, with the title either changing in colour or name along the lines of WvW Ranks, in order for players to show their experience level.

    So the CM Title could either change colours after X clears progressing like Item rarity, or get a prefix or suffix like Sunqua- Veteran, Champion, Legend to easily display a rough range of clears somewhere in the range from 1 (first title) -100 (last title), so gating doesn't get out of hand.

    Ideally they could also add something along the lines of being able to link the current Title tier in chat from the Achievement Window, so people aren't forced to display it and for convenience in group making to not have to be in the same map/finding each other to check.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Derm.4932Derm.4932 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 17, 2020

    Trying to remove KP is going to backfire hilariously. Even in the event that Anet removes all forms of KP, people will simply use Skorvald or some other encounter as a trial boss. Don't perform to expectations? Kicked. I don't see how that is any less toxic than simply "you don't have enough kp, sorry."

    At the end of the day, KP isn't a gatekeeping tool - it's matchmaking tool. You use it to set expectations. 250KP group? Probably seeking more experienced players. 50KP group? Fine with casual play. Removing this is only going to result in more scenarios where players who have clearly different expectations are matched, resulting in toxicity. Not fun for casuals nor for hardcore players. Regardless, KP always finds a way, even if people have to resort to exotic solutions like killproof.me or trial boss runs as listed above

  • We never truly had reliable kp. They could be faked before the patch, titles could be bought and augmentations could be farmed without CMs. Now people can still do that and claim that they exchanged their kp. It doesn't really make a difference. If we want a better version of the kp system its time to make https://killproof.me/ the new standard. It's going to be better that way anyway because that way you can spend your kp on items without losing kp because the website can calculate that (it's already done with legendary armor) and you can't fake anything. It would be amazing if you could attach logs to it, they are more reliable than kp. That way it would be easier for players with low kp but who play on an above average skill level to get into groups matching their own skill level aswell.

  • It’s not “borderline harassment” to change reward structures. Like holy kitten. Believe it or not Anet doesn’t just sit in their office and plan changes simply to harass you.

    Also kp is easily fake able. So it’s fairly worthless anyway. I find “be exp” gets good teammates 95% of the time anyway

  • Fir.7932Fir.7932 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Blue Topaz.5409 said:
    It’s not “borderline harassment” to change reward structures. Like holy kitten. Believe it or not Anet doesn’t just sit in their office and plan changes simply to harass you.

    While I agree that the wording is way over the top, I also agree that players voice their concerns when changes are implemented which will lead to issues down the road.

    @Blue Topaz.5409 said:
    Also kp is easily fake able. So it’s fairly worthless anyway. I find “be exp” gets good teammates 95% of the time anyway

    If this were true, no harsher gating would have been in place this wide spread. Fact of the matter is, putting "exp" in your LFG helps to about the midway point of challenging content, if one considers normal T4 fractals remotely challenging, after that you are relying on good luck of the draw on who joins. Even then, "exp" is a lot more vague than a numeric value.

    With the old KP ping for fractals, there was a certain expectation to go along:

    • 1-50 KP was in general new players, hfb which might not do all the mechanics for one, likely no consumables, maybe not even a fractal title on players
    • 50-100 KP were more relaxed groups, still a hfb for carry but one who might actually know how to press buttons, consumables were given, etc.
    • 200 KP was right below "I have to focus up now" with maybe a hfb, but very likely a few fractal title players, everyone on full consumables and fractal potions
    • 300+ KP was in general: focus up, no hfb for carry so know how to dodge, cc and burst, probably portals on multiple people, etc. Get through both CMs in around 20 Minutes

    As someone with a good bit above 300 KP myself, I was free to chose which type of group I wanted to join depending on how I felt. If I wanted to semi afk 99+100CM, I'd sign up as DH or BS in a 100 KP group, or run HFB and carry all mechanics assuring a safe run.

    While KP were easily fake able, the person faking would often get the boot and seldom complain, unless the group was merciful and the player was okayish, I've seen a fair share of definitive KP fake players who were barely acceptable but not kicked since they at least did not fail sever mechanics. Now you most definitely will get faking players complain when kicked, and kicks will become far more frequent. Neither of which will benefit the atmosphere.

    The 2 main flaws of reasoning here:
    1. the KP ping addressed the issue of players wanting to play with similar skilled players, and while it had flaws, it managed to do so in a majority of cases. This was superior to asking for "exp", because experience and skill in this game are not binary
    2. some players on these boards always assume that gating happens immediately. That is not the case, gating happens to a majority of time due to necessity, especially when it is this wide spread. You never see gating for open world bosses because there is no need for it. Most players don't voluntary gate for kitten and giggles, because reducing the viable amount of players which can join means longer group finding, they do so because the gating actually REDUCES time to complete content and/or increases the chance of success DESPITE longer grouping times.

    This guy said it all (y)

  • Friday.7864Friday.7864 Member ✭✭✭

    @Blue Topaz.5409 said:
    It’s not “borderline harassment” to change reward structures. Like holy kitten. Believe it or not Anet doesn’t just sit in their office and plan changes simply to harass you.

    Also kp is easily fake able. So it’s fairly worthless anyway. I find “be exp” gets good teammates 95% of the time anyway

    Our luck or definition of "good" differ greatly then.
    Excuse me, but setting me up with kittens in CMs is harassment to me, my static group and many other people I know. It's rage inducing and beyond frustrating.
    Titles can be used instead of items for KP. People already made that suggestion.

  • I voted yes for KP, but I would not like having to ping it, I'm not a fan of having to store junks in my bank (having a whole bank tab just for raid/fractal KP oof...).

    I'd saying it should be a number that can be accumulated passively via playing CM, increase by 1 for each run of CM, and it should be displayed on the character avatar. Which the top number should be Agony, the bottom number should be KP. This way, players won't be able to fake KP, and solves the inventory cluttering problem.

  • Jilora.9524Jilora.9524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Borderline harassment? I agree no one not skilled should join a t4 cm group. I agree you can set w/e the eff you want as reqs in lfg. I don't agree that 1 percent of the player base needs to whine obsessively because they want to avoid the other less skilled 1 percent of the player base. You basically got an entire update for like 2 percent of the player base that try t4 plus cm. Anyone less skilled in t3 or below are locked out from that content and rewards. Learn whos good or bad and stop whining saying some lame thing as it's harassment because now you can't exclude someone before you even play with them. On top of it the main complainer has a static but this threads are just in case or for others that don't. If you don't want to risk wasting your time don't pug.

    WvW band wagoners ruin the game mode just like Karen's ruin these forums.

  • Yes and here's why: It allows experienced groups to group together and inexperienced groups to group together and learn. It shows progress. This is my suggestion:

    An achievement that counts your boss kills for fractals and raids with a failsafe protection of trying to fake the achievement either returns an error of (Cannot link from this location) or just shows your achievement anyways. For example, say a player sees a group looking for a role the player has but they want someone who's at least beaten the boss 40 times. The player only has done it 4 times, and tries to fake their achievement. It either doesn't go through, or when they link the chat code (the [&A23461] or whatever it could be) it just returns their achievement with the 4 kills. This technology to stop items being linked already exists and would likely need to be modified. Linking achievements though may be impossible, but it is a dream. Also, imagine being able to compare with guildies/friends how many kills you've got

  • SeikeNz.3526SeikeNz.3526 Member ✭✭✭✭

    KP don't make you skilled, just means you did it more times.

    like in esports, you can play 1kk games and still be low elo because you are unskilled

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 17, 2020

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:
    KP don't make you skilled, just means you did it more times.

    like in esports, you can play 1kk games and still be low elo because you are unskilled

    That low elo player with 1kk games, in this case high amount of KP, will not join high KP groups though, because he knows how strong he is, and if he does he will likely get kicked, just like a player without the KP.

    So problem once again solved no?

    KP are being used twice fold in this game:

    • as judgment of a players successful completions of the content in the hopes that more experience means more skill, obviously flawed but the best we have
    • as an indicator of what level of play is expected. I explained this further up.

    There is tons of players with hundreds of KP not making 300 or 400 KP groups. There is a reason for that.

  • Friday.7864Friday.7864 Member ✭✭✭

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:
    KP don't make you skilled, just means you did it more times.

    like in esports, you can play 1kk games and still be low elo because you are unskilled

    This isn't esports, you are not playing against unpredictable humans.
    You are trying to clear the same, static, unchanging content every time you enter.
    My cat walking on the keyboard would stay as bad as it was when it started doing CM runs, not a human.

  • Both titles are more than enough in my opinion, you have the clear title to show that you have cleared it at least once and the deathless one that should be more than enough to prove you are skilled enough with the fight. Assuming there are no bugs with these achievements like it happened with Shattered, you don't need anything else.
    If the person has Dances with Demons which requires his whole party to not dying once in both boss phases why would you need to ask that person for an absurd amount of KPs? That for me is just people being unnecessary and toxic.

    Joko lies, Balthazar don't.

  • SeikeNz.3526SeikeNz.3526 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Friday.7864 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:
    KP don't make you skilled, just means you did it more times.

    like in esports, you can play 1kk games and still be low elo because you are unskilled

    This isn't esports, you are not playing against unpredictable humans.
    You are trying to clear the same, static, unchanging content every time you enter.
    My cat walking on the keyboard would stay as bad as it was when it started doing CM runs, not a human.

    so if the content don't change, how you can say that someone with 1-50kp is bad and 300+ kp is good? if he can finish it one time that means he is good enough, grinding the content don't give player skills

  • SeikeNz.3526SeikeNz.3526 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 17, 2020

    @Joraan Adenard.2061 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @Friday.7864 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:
    KP don't make you skilled, just means you did it more times.

    like in esports, you can play 1kk games and still be low elo because you are unskilled

    This isn't esports, you are not playing against unpredictable humans.
    You are trying to clear the same, static, unchanging content every time you enter.
    My cat walking on the keyboard would stay as bad as it was when it started doing CM runs, not a human.

    so if the content don't change, how you can say that someone with 1-50kp is bad and 300+ kp is good? if he can finish it one time that means he is good enough, grinding the content don't give player skills

    So, whenever you do something in real life, as soon as you're able to complete/finish, you cant ever get better ? Even when practicing many more hours, you wont ever get faster ? Or be more precise and get better results ? Of course you can become better.

    The same applies in game. If you can complete the content, that's a great starting point. But repeating it more times will make you faster. Mistakes will happen less. You'll be more comfortable. Complete the content 100-200 times ? You're getting close to completing it flawlessly. That's the difference between 1-10kp, 50kp and 300kp. Is that a flawless system ? No. Does repeating the content guarantees progress ? Neither. But you'll never convince anyone saying that playing more doesnt make you more skillful.

    there's always a limit to get better, after you master it you don't, if you keep doing the same thing on the learning process you don't get better, but the learning process on the game is finishing it, so finishing it 50 times or 300 times it's all the same, BECAUSE LIKE HE SAID THE CONTENT IS STATIC "You are trying to clear the same, static, unchanging content every time you enter. " there's nothing new to learn there, so 50 to 300 is all grinding.

    also asking for KP of 1 content to another completely different content just prove alot of things on KP PLAYERS that i can't say there.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 17, 2020

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @Joraan Adenard.2061 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @Friday.7864 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:
    KP don't make you skilled, just means you did it more times.

    like in esports, you can play 1kk games and still be low elo because you are unskilled

    This isn't esports, you are not playing against unpredictable humans.
    You are trying to clear the same, static, unchanging content every time you enter.
    My cat walking on the keyboard would stay as bad as it was when it started doing CM runs, not a human.

    so if the content don't change, how you can say that someone with 1-50kp is bad and 300+ kp is good? if he can finish it one time that means he is good enough, grinding the content don't give player skills

    So, whenever you do something in real life, as soon as you're able to complete/finish, you cant ever get better ? Even when practicing many more hours, you wont ever get faster ? Or be more precise and get better results ? Of course you can become better.

    The same applies in game. If you can complete the content, that's a great starting point. But repeating it more times will make you faster. Mistakes will happen less. You'll be more comfortable. Complete the content 100-200 times ? You're getting close to completing it flawlessly. That's the difference between 1-10kp, 50kp and 300kp. Is that a flawless system ? No. Does repeating the content guarantees progress ? Neither. But you'll never convince anyone saying that playing more doesnt make you more skillful.

    there's always a limit to get better, after you master it you don't, if you keep doing the same thing on the learning process you don't get better, but the learning process on the game is finishing it, so finishing it 50 times or 300 times it's all the same, BECAUSE LIKE HE SAID THE CONTENT IS STATIC "You are trying to clear the same, static, unchanging content every time you enter. " there's nothing new to learn there, so 50 to 300 is all grinding

    The average KP per clear was 2 pre patch. So clearing the 100 CM 50 times meant already a minimum of 100 KP. Then you add in changes in class setup (say no HFB), tactics used (say portal or fast CC), and your proposed 50 clears become a lot more since I doubt every single players starts with high end clear strats. So even your own given example fails a simple math test.

    The content is static, but the different ways to clear it are not. Let's be honest though, we all know your position on this. This isn't about any one convincing the other, and if you truly believe you can learn nothing or improve after clearing content in this game a few times, that explains your often taken position nicely, and the limitations you will never overcome. Suffice to say, no actually experienced player will take you seriously, but here too: no one is here to convince the other, it's all about winning the "argument".

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 17, 2020

    There should be smth like a performance card instead of kp imo. I think a kp like system should exist for the sake of more enjoyable play for everyone but smth that infinitely scales up like the previous kp is just bad.

    I voted no because i dont want an item based kp but some kind of experience gauge should exist.

  • KP reduces toxicity in the LFG system, whether people like it or not. There are plenty of training Discord servers / in-game guilds that are more than happy to hold your hand through the CMs. If you don't have the willingness to learn CMs prior to setting a foot in them, I don't think it's content that you should be doing either.

    I voted "yes", but with that vote I am simply implying that a way to show someone's expertise (to a certain extent, 300+ KP has not been a guarantee of skilled people for a long time) is important to make groups that don't vary in skill too much.

    minecrafter

  • uberkingkong.8041uberkingkong.8041 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 20, 2020

    @Friday.7864 said:

    • Many don't even know the basics of their class. Rotation? What's that? If a fractal has DPS checks and a player doesn't know how to dps we have nothing to discuss.

    Yep exactly why I made this thread
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/115004/should-they-add-a-dps-meter#latest
    ..
    .

    People say rotation isn't a big deal,

    memorizing 26 buttons to do in a row
    https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/warrior/berserker/power banner/
    26 button opener PLUS 18 button loop
    https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/mesmer/chronomancer/power boon/

    No big deal, you have this dude who keeps spamming
    @Astyrah.4015
    "2 weapons 5 skills, yada yada"
    Then here come to a thread where people know what fractals raids and good dps is.
    Many don't even know the basics of their class. Rotation?

    Yep, thats whole point, we need to lessen down that rotation, so people can, know basics, easier to remember some rotation 4-8 buttons, not 26 button opener and 18 button loop.

    Yes we need a DPS meter, as for KP, you don't need it if you have a DPS meter. This is fractal, its easier than strike mission easier than raid, you want people who do dungeons to have KP, megabosses to have KP?

    DPS meter.
    People could care less if you can do a raid, if you do 25K+ dps, sure come on and join us, you better than the someone who knows but who can only maintain 12K.
    Would be no issue if rotation wasn't 15+
    Back in CoF p1, the core days. Warrior, press 2 and use berserk utility. Yes thats cheesy, but 26 19 button rotation?!? thats insane, 4-9 buttons is a sweet spot.

    DPS Meter, less amount of buttons for rotation, you wont have any headaches with things like Subject 7

  • Armen.1483Armen.1483 Member ✭✭✭

    I would like to see a healbrand hard nerf, so you guys understand what we are talking about.

  • @Armen.1483 said:
    I would like to see a healbrand hard nerf, so you guys understand what we are talking about.

    People can adjust. Trust me, they have brains just like you. Just different lvl of motivation, that's all.

  • @maddoctor.2738 said:
    I voted no, "Kill Proof" as an item that can be pinged isn't something I want in the game. However, a better way of showing experience that doesn't involve chat codes and cannot be faked, is something I'd like to have, while at the same time reducing clutter and inventory space requirements. Like pinging the "KP" from inside the wallet.

    I feel like the KP people are wanting, is being overlooked in the form of actual fractal guilds.

    You play a fractal run, notice guys who are real good, you invite them into an elite fractal guild once they've demonstrated superior play.

    Great reason to encourage the formation and bonding of guilds again.

    I mean this is not a difficult thing to do in a game designed with guild UIs.

  • Henry.5713Henry.5713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    KPs are hardly the most ideal solution but I prefer having something over having nothing.

    Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something. ~ Robert Heinlein

  • Dark Red Killian.3946Dark Red Killian.3946 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 21, 2020

    I think they could have a progressional title system. After so many times doing CM 98, you get title 1, after more times get title 2, and so on. Same for 99 and 100. That’s all you have to do. I don’t want items that are supposed to be used to buy rewards held back because you have to show KP. A title system would be fine. It can be governed by an achievement, and when you hit the next tier your title evolves.

  • As new fractals are getting longer and longer and more and more mechanics heavy, we absolutely should have KP. I don't want to spend 1.5 hours on 100 (non-CM) because people keep dying over and over. Maybe when I'm bored and have extra time to kill. Otherwise please no. And KP is one of the ways to filter down the situation a bit.
    Ideally we should be able to show how many times particular fractal was finished. "Did Siren's Reef 200 times" is way better than "Did Siren's Reef 5 times" expectation wise.

  • KPs are the reason we're so rarely getting any new content. Anet sees that only a fraction of the players are doing fracal CMs at all, even fewer on a regular basis so they don't think it's worth dedicading resources to. The KP situation is scaring people away from even attemting them, not just because they can't find a group but because it makes them look much harder then they actually are. I also dont think it's valide to, say new players should: "just join a training run" or "get a guild" and "good players shouldn't have to carry bad players" as you could just aswell say "if you dont want to deal with bad player, YOU should be the one looking for a guild or static group". The LFG tool was made for more "casual" player but lately the "250+ kp" crowd had comply taken over to the point where normal people cant even get a standard T4 daily without having at least 100 kp because may players without any stoped doing fracals at all. The community has split into two camps "the KP people" and the "to bad to bother with people" where the latter dont even want to play with each other anymore and rater quit all together. I'm glad KPs are gone and they should even go further with it. It's KPs (LI) that killed strikes recently, folling in the footsteps of raids that came before them. They should remove as many KP typ items as Possible and the game should focus more on building communitys around this type of content to mitigate the need to artificially filter people and encourage playing with people you know.

  • I would rather have gearcheck instead of kp. Rich Cameron said there are better ways vet player than kp, so allow 3rd party gear check programs.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    don't worry, kp still exists. Want join where it is, not want - make your lfg.

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • I think KP will just cause toxicity. Also IMO the difference between "Toxic" and "want to play with player on the same skill level" is quite thin.

  • Fangoth.4503Fangoth.4503 Member ✭✭
    edited September 23, 2020

    @Shadowmoon.7986 said:
    I would rather have gearcheck instead of kp. Rich Cameron said there are better ways vet player than kp, so allow 3rd party gear check programs.

    gearcheck ssay even less than kp about player skills. it is super easy to get ascended/legendary gear with proper stats but it doesn't mean that you know how to deal with mechs and/or do a half descent rotation.

    also you should try to play in 0kp group present in t1 i started recently for the weekly reward and so far its more toxic than t4. people get kicked for lagging even if they outdps the whole team :# and these are the one that give the first impression to new players not the t4 lfg ;)

    @uberkingkong.8041 said:

    @Friday.7864 said:

    • Many don't even know the basics of their class. Rotation? What's that? If a fractal has DPS checks and a player doesn't know how to dps we have nothing to discuss.

    Yep exactly why I made this thread
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/115004/should-they-add-a-dps-meter#latest
    ..
    .

    People say rotation isn't a big deal,

    memorizing 26 buttons to do in a row
    https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/warrior/berserker/power banner/
    26 button opener PLUS 18 button loop
    https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/mesmer/chronomancer/power boon/

    No big deal, you have this dude who keeps spamming
    @Astyrah.4015
    "2 weapons 5 skills, yada yada"
    Then here come to a thread where people know what fractals raids and good dps is.
    Many don't even know the basics of their class. Rotation?

    Yep, thats whole point, we need to lessen down that rotation, so people can, know basics, easier to remember some rotation 4-8 buttons, not 26 button opener and 18 button loop.

    Yes we need a DPS meter, as for KP, you don't need it if you have a DPS meter. This is fractal, its easier than strike mission easier than raid, you want people who do dungeons to have KP, megabosses to have KP?

    DPS meter.
    People could care less if you can do a raid, if you do 25K+ dps, sure come on and join us, you better than the someone who knows but who can only maintain 12K.
    Would be no issue if rotation wasn't 15+
    Back in CoF p1, the core days. Warrior, press 2 and use berserk utility. Yes thats cheesy, but 26 19 button rotation?!? thats insane, 4-9 buttons is a sweet spot.

    DPS Meter, less amount of buttons for rotation, you wont have any headaches with things like Subject 7

    its fractal, boss are phasing/moving away at 5th button or so...
    rotation doesn't have to be simplified, people have to accept/realise what their gameplay level is and join the adapted group instead of always aiming to highest level that fit only for maybe 1 or 2k player. or give theself the tools to improve by either repeating a lot the encounter or pactice their rotation on golem and think of to make it as good as possible depending of the target boss and its mechs
    but well all want to think they are the best player and join high pressure group, ruin it and make the group makers increase the requirement to avoid having this issue again. when in fact they would be better off joining a lower requirement lfg that would still kill the boss but using an easier strat

    its quite impressive how people are terrible to each other in lower frectal tier instead of helping each otherand well at least i hope the weekly success drag enough skill player to help fresh newcomers instead of having them shoot each other. not surprising that there is a low quality at higher tier if all that is taught/learn in t1 is how to call people out for tiny things instead of telling them nicely how to improve.
    i guess T1 need more evil kp elitist like I that teach people how to get easy ring and ascended gear instead of kicking 0 ar player :#
    and its also a win win, increasing the quality from start will increase the quality all the way up to cm ;) maybe even reduce the required kp amount as player would have thess to learn and can focus on boss mechs

  • As reyo has said the removal of Unstable Cosmic Essence was a good thing for several reason, 1 it took up inventory space and 2) it was easy to be faked. Beyond that it also served a purpose that the community felt help solve a problem. And the problem was a matter of respecting a players time and helped group like minded players with an expectation of skill level.

    We have no real way of sharing how experienced we are with harder content. There is no inspect option or share option to let people see how skilled you are. So players came up with a simple shift+click solution. It wasn't perfect but facilitated that purpose.

    So the problem isn't that Unstable Cosmic Essence was removed, it was that Anet offered no good alternative. Cameron said we should rely on on titles for our KP

    Reyo again suggest then if thats what anet wants us to use then we need new titles.

  • Friday.7864Friday.7864 Member ✭✭✭

    So we want KP but we want a new KP system that uses titles.
    How many kills should each title cover?

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 23, 2020

    @Glott.4830 said:
    KPs are the reason we're so rarely getting any new content. Anet sees that only a fraction of the players are doing fracal CMs at all, even fewer on a regular basis so they don't think it's worth dedicading resources to.

    I don't think KP's are the main reason for that, rather the other way around. So few players play the content because there is barely any of it, with it taking Anet up to 3 years to release ~10 minutes of content, because of that, rather than being kept busy by frequent new content releases and having a balanced player base with frequent new player additions drawn in by the content updates, all veterans of the content had to keep themselves entertained was to master the content more and more - therefor needing a tool for selection to find other very experienced people in an easy way, aka. ever increasing KP.

    Many players don't think it's worth investing their time into the content, since Anet isn't dedicating any resources to it and it appearing to not have a future.
    Why get invested into and learn content that sees an update every couple years?
    Naturally, all you have eventually left is a very tight hardcore community of the most dedicated players to that content, looking for each other to play with.

    @Glott.4830 said:
    The KP situation is scaring people away from even attemting them, not just because they can't find a group but because it makes them look much harder then they actually are.

    I do agree with this partially, but that's also a symptom of a wider problem of GW2, where due to how the entire rest of the game works, being extremely easy solo content that never requires any coordination or socialisation, a large part of the community is just simply too afraid to put up their own groups and start their own initiatives, with the rest of the game just never having normalised that.
    Way too many people just keep staring at LFG hoping for the perfect group for them to appear so they can slide in there without any effort or communication on their part.
    If there aren't any, hardcore players who do make their own groups get blamed for "discrimination" for making their own groups with their own requirements because they don't fulfill them, when everybody has the tools to do so.

    @Glott.4830 said:
    I also dont think it's valide to, say new players should: "just join a training run" or "get a guild" and "good players shouldn't have to carry bad players" as you could just aswell say "if you dont want to deal with bad player, YOU should be the one looking for a guild or static group".
    The LFG tool was made for more "casual" player but lately the "250+ kp" crowd had comply taken over to the point where normal people cant even get a standard T4 daily without having at least 100 kp because may players without any stoped doing fracals at all.

    Absolutely, that statement applies to every player. Getting a group/static is the superior way to experience group content for everybody from super casual to super hardcore and everything in between.
    Yet the LFG is for everybody, not only casuals, not only hardcores. And here's the thing, hardcore players usually do look for guilds, statics, groups and do make LFG's.
    Casuals more often than not don't, that's the problem.
    There is no "Takeover" by hardcore players, barring anyone else from getting in.
    Just people knowing how and with whom they want to play the game not afraid to look for exactly that. I don't see anything wrong with that. Everybody has those tools.
    Most just aren't using them, and blaming those who do for stepping up for themselves is imo pretty silly.

    @Glott.4830 said:
    The community has split into two camps "the KP people" and the "to bad to bother with people" where the latter dont even want to play with each other anymore and rater quit all together. I'm glad KPs are gone and they should even go further with it. It's KPs (LI) that killed strikes recently, folling in the footsteps of raids that came before them. They should remove as many KP typ items as Possible and the game should focus more on building communitys around this type of content to mitigate the need to artificially filter people and encourage playing with people you know.

    I absolutely agree that the game should focus more on building communities, getting people to group, form relationships etc., which then makes it much easier, stress free and comfortable for most players to tackle group content together in a much "safer" environment.
    That said, ask yourself which part of the community has been rallying against any such efforts, and which part of the community already is in groups and statics to a large degree?
    Abolishing group finding tools used by the subset of pugging hardcore players isn't magically going to make casuals, beginners, or whatever you want to call them, look for groups, organise and put the work in to get statics and guilds off the ground - something that's been available to them to enjoy the content all this time, KP or not, as well.

    KP's are a needed solution to a problem. Just removing a solution for not being perfect doesn't fix the problem.
    If Anet abolishes group finding tools everywhere, hardcore/experienced players in statics and guild will still play all the same, hardcore/experienced players who pug will either quit or make the jump to statics, and casuals/beginners at large will still stare at the LFG waiting for someone else to do the grouping work, except now instead of filled with KP/LI groups the LFG will mostly be just empty, with no else one left to blame for their own lack of initiative.

    /E:

    @Glott.4830 said:
    It's KPs (LI) that killed strikes recently, folling in the footsteps of raids that came before them.

    Also to further address that point, the early super casual Strikes were utterly dead before the Eye of the North update and more semi-frequent and slightly more challenging content releases which meant hardcore players flocking to the mode for a time in the absence of Raids, making groups for everybody and themselves.
    Now there is no new content for a while, most rewards are likely earned - at least by the dedicated players who made groups, and so the content is slowly dying down again, just like any other neglected group/hardcore content.
    KP really doesn't have much if anything to do with that.

    TL:DR;
    Anet focused way too much on easy single player content in their MMO for years and years, never normalising grouping to it's players. Meanwhile hardcore and in general group content has seen incredibly few releases, shrinking those player bases to just the most dedicated players left.
    KP followed as (imperfect) symptom/solution out of that for those players to group with each other - it was never the problem itself.
    You can't blame hardcore/experienced players making their own groups (whatever the tools available) for the lack of beginner/casual groups.
    If beginners/casuals want groups on LFG catering to them, LI/KP existing or not, they are going to have to step up and make them, nobody else will and it's silly and self-patronizing/entitled to expect them to.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Glott.4830 said:
    The LFG tool was made for more "casual" player

    The LFG tool was made for players to form groups, how they do that and what groups they make is up to them. When it comes to harder content, LFG groups are looking for players that are already experienced with the content, and that makes sense as it's dumb to force players to "train/teach" others. All player's time should be respected. It wasn't "created for casual players" specifically.

  • title is something fix but kp it something that inflate overtime.
    best players get 25kill after few days so having a title would be fine. but now take after year pretty much everyone has these 25kills which makes title irrelevant and players will work on some sort of item kp then to be able to make different level group again. or in that case you need title max kill to increase here and there but doubt it will be

  • @maddoctor.2738 said:
    The LFG tool was made for players to form groups, how they do that and what groups they make is up to them. When it comes to harder content, LFG groups are looking for players that are already experienced with the content, and that makes sense as it's dumb to force players to "train/teach" others. All player's time should be respected. It wasn't "created for casual players" specifically.

    Casual was probably the wrong word (that's why i put it in quotation marks) . What i meant are players that dont have a guild, friends or a regular group to play with and often don't even want any of that for what ever reason, mostly a lag time. I get if people want a fast an clean run but often enough i see LFG groups asking for 250kp and apparently waiting 30min.+ for someone to join. Why do all these groups have so much time to do literally nothing but can't be burdened with a few potential wipes with a less experienced player. In my experience most people are very understanding if you ask them to leave after it's clear they are not up to the task, but at least they got a chance to try and often enough it even works out.

  • 1 complete cm run = title
    5 complete cm run = new title
    10 complete cm run = new new title (may be)
    You want more or less = play with friend, guild or static.
    This would be healthy for game in my opinion.

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 23, 2020

    @Glott.4830 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    The LFG tool was made for players to form groups, how they do that and what groups they make is up to them. When it comes to harder content, LFG groups are looking for players that are already experienced with the content, and that makes sense as it's dumb to force players to "train/teach" others. All player's time should be respected. It wasn't "created for casual players" specifically.

    Casual was probably the wrong word (that's why i put it in quotation marks) . What i meant are players that dont have a guild, friends or a regular group to play with and often don't even want any of that for what ever reason, mostly a lag time. I get if people want a fast an clean run but often enough i see LFG groups asking for 250kp and apparently waiting 30min.+ for someone to join. Why do all these groups have so much time to do literally nothing but can't be burdened with a few potential wipes with a less experienced player. In my experience most people are very understanding if you ask them to leave after it's clear they are not up to the task, but at least they got a chance to try and often enough it even works out.

    You do know that they can do anything in the open world while still having a lfg listing up right?
    They dont have to sit in the fractal lobby waiting to form.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I think better didive
    ask old cms and t4
    and collect condi pt for cm100 wiht dwd and some other requirements
    ask kp, not have kp? If person say "I sell or change it" ask person add api key on https://killproof.me
    check that UFE by person account name and don't worry.

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • virgileboss.2458virgileboss.2458 Member ✭✭
    edited September 25, 2020

    I voted yes since i got my 400+ kp runing in PUG groups only and I can really see the difference between 1-100, 100-200, 200-300 and 300+ (and even 400+) kp groups.
    That being said, I don't see the problem with kp since it is what shows the experience of a player in a certain game mode. If people don't like an item to be linked maybe a killcount on X boss would be the same ? I would gladly accept arcdps logs on bosses even though it takes too much time/effort to be relevant.

    I play alacrity renegade and I feel kinda awfull doing more burst/dps than a "dps" spot in 200kp groups. There's also a question of time, after doing so much fractal I like to clean it fast (40-45 minutes for old CM's+T4s) and don't want to spend 1hour+ teaching people (plus I don't know everything).
    Don't get me wrong I like going in T4 and sometimes CMs with my guildies and teach them how things work and spending hours wiping, but these are two different situations thus I have different expectations.

    Have a good day c:

    Edit : Say what you want about fake kp but at a certain point you can see someone who's really faking kp on his dps/mechanics and if you don't see a difference then it's fine no ? If someone having 50 kp is faking 300kp and does a good job it's all good :smiley: