8 years later still no build variety by traitline desing. We need more changes.

2 Specialitations later and we still play with the same 2 traitlines (WS and BM) for every single one. There is no real build variety same traits same utilities.From my point of veteran view:

• Having all the cleanses in WS does not help. It makes no sense to have Wilderness knowledge and Empathic Bond (thematically and mechanically) in the same traitline.
• WS brings aditional healing reliably which is sorely needed with a class with so little deffensive skills and traits
• BM brings movement speed and extra stats to pets which otherwise it would be able to hit anything.
• Ranger does less damage than other clases by desing, as such it is forced to rely in sustain traitlines.
• No relevant condi traitline.

This simply makes ranger being pigeonholed into those 2 traitlines and build around that. Otherwise you are just boycotting yourself in making your gameplay even more clunky.

• Can we get the trait Empathic Bond moved back to beastmastery already?
• Can we get the ICD in Evasive Purity trait removed?
• Can Invigorating Bond become a minor in the trailine?
• Can Windborne notes's heals tick for the duration we have regen instead only when applied?
• Can Natural Healing to tick every second, even if reducing the healing to match up to actual numbers?
• Can the minors Pack Alpha and Pet's prowess become baseline to all pets?
• Can Sharpened Edges become a minor in SKIRMISHING and get an aditional trait to trigger that effect more constantly?
• Can Strider's Defense be moved to marksmanship?
• Can Predator's Cunning trigger with bleeding too?
• Can we get back the Spirits Unbound trait?
• Can we get to share 100% of the stances duration with allies in Leader Of the Pack trait?

Would also like to see...1 - traits that apply to both pet and ranger apply twice when merged in soulbeast.2 - skill selection on pets.3 - buffs to non meta weapons/ defined weapon roles rather than hybrid designs anet likes to give rangers.

@anduriell.6280 said:

• Having all the cleanses in WS does not help. It makes no sense to have Wilderness knowledge and Empathic Bond (thematically and mechanically) in the same traitline.Agreed, they should spread some condi cleanse on other lines.
• WS brings aditional healing reliably which is sorely needed with a class with so little deffensive skills and traitsI think this is something that will get fixed with the next elite spec, since it should be a defensive bruiser.
• Ranger does less damage than other clases by desing, as such it is forced to rely in sustain traitlines.Can't say that I agree on this one, ranger seems fairly strong when it comes to dps.
• No relevant condi traitline.I think ranger's condition damage is strong enough, especially since the addition of soulbeast.
• Can we get the ICD in Evasive Purity trait removed?I think they could try that out and see how strong it turns out to be.
• Can Invigorating Bond become a minor in the trailine?I feel like they should probably decrease the healing then, but otherwise yeah, why not.
• Can Windborne notes's heals tick for the duration we have regen instead only when applied?Again, should probably get decreased healing in this case.
• Can Natural Healing to tick every second, even if reducing the healing to match up to actual numbers?If healing is adjusted, agreed.
• Can the minors Pack Alpha and Pet's prowess become baseline to all pets?If that means that soulbeast doesn't have access to these anymore... sure.
• Can Strider's Defense be moved to marksmanship?I think it makes more sense both thematically and mechanically in skirmishing.
• Can Predator's Cunning trigger with bleeding too?Most likely too strong, especially with shortbow's fast attack speed while applying bleed on auto attack.
• Can we get back the Spirits Unbound trait?Don't see a reason for it to return, tbh. I think spirits are working fine.
• Can we get to share 100% of the stances duration with allies in Leader Of the Pack trait?Disagreed. These effects are pretty powerful already and it is not in theme for soulbeast to share these durations completely. Soulbeast is not a supportng spec, it is about dps and the halfed duration is installed for the same reason why hard light arena from holosmith also just pulses half the boon durations on allies.

I am happy to see we agree in the main point which is ranger does not have build variety and most of the changes. However I will share my difference of opinion which I don't share with you on some points.

@Kodama.6453 said:Can't say that I agree on this one, ranger seems fairly strong when it comes to dps.You know that is not true. The weapon multipliers are there in the wiki, easy enough to check it out.

@Kodama.6453 said:I think ranger's condition damage is strong enough, especially since the addition of soulbeast.Soulbeast bring nothing to condi builds. I don't think you have good knowledge of the ranger class at this point. I would advise to try it out in ranked for few seasons.

@Kodama.6453 said:I think it makes more sense both thematically and mechanically in skirmishing.I don't see where you think a power weapon trait fitting in a condition traitline as "making more sense thematically and mechanically".

@Kodama.6453 said:

• Can Predator's Cunning trigger with bleeding too?Most likely too strong, especially with shortbow's fast attack speed while applying bleed on auto attack.Reduce the healing, same solution as you agree on all those other healing traits. Shortbow is a subpar weapon for pvp with no defensive toolset. This trait may give it some punch to be usable outside from meme builds,

• Can we get to share 100% of the stances duration with allies in Leader Of the Pack trait?Disagreed. These effects are pretty powerful already and it is not in theme for soulbeast to share these durations completely. Soulbeast is not a supportng spec, it is about dps and the halfed duration is installed for the same reason why hard light arena from holosmith also just pulses half the boon durations on allies.Wow you are grasping straws there, those are two very different skills mechanically, for once hard light arena pulses. It shares boons which can be provided by other utilities. That 50% duration still guarantee an 100% light arena duration to allies.

Leader of the pack definitely needs to share 100% duration with allies, commanders agree on that one as it would help to close gap and avoid pirateship. You can ask around if you find any commander which is not strongly biased against rangers. Moa stance maybe would need a duration nerf to be equal to other stances in duration, but thats is to be expected.

it doesn't matter how much you insists, Ranger does not need another bruiser, Druid is already a bruiser and because of the nerfs Soulbeast needs to be played as a bruiser too , check out Druid pvp with ROM to see it in action.

Ranger needs an ele \ necro spec alike as AoE nuke Yes some Cc in there for good measure but focus mainly in AoE dps.

@"anduriell.6280" said:You know that is not true. The weapon multipliers are there in the wiki, easy enough to check it out.It seems we are both talking about a different context. You seem to talk from a PvP/WvW point of view, while I mostly come from a high end PvE point of view (raids, strikes, fractals, etc).Still would argue that ranger's damage in PvP is not that low as you make it look like, I see quite alot of ranger's in PvP bursting people.Soulbeast bring nothing to condi builds. I don't think you have good knowledge of the ranger class at this point. I would advise to try it out in ranked for few seasons.Seems about context again. Soulbeast does provide stuff for condi builds, obviously. Like the trait that increases condition damage on foes you disable, getting healing and additional damage from poison, longer condi duration against enemies on low health, or simply the fact that you get additional condi damage from fusing with your pet. Vulture stance is also used in condition builds for soulbeast in raids.I don't see where you think a power weapon trait fitting in a condition traitline as "making more sense thematically and mechanically".I see skirmishing more as a trait line about maneuvering around your enemy in fights, considering many traits in that line are about striking foes from a flank, evasion, etc.Sword is one of the more mobile weapons in ranger's arsenal which allows you to do exactly that. Also skirmishing is not a pure condition trait line if you look at it realistically. There are other power based traits in there besides the sword trait, like hunter's tactics, vicious quarry......Reduce the healing, same solution as you agree on all those other healing traits. Shortbow is a subpar weapon for pvp with no defensive toolset. This trait may give it some punch to be usable outside from meme buildsThen they should reduce both, the healing and the damage from the trait. I think it could be pretty risky to do this change.When was the last time you saw an spirit being used anywhere else than raids or open world boss? Honest question: Are you trolling?Nope, not trolling. Like I said, I mostly talk from a high end PvE point of view and spirits are pretty much meta in raids on druid. In my opinion, not every skill needs to be viable in every game mode and spirits have their use niche. There are many skills in the game which are not viable anywhere.Wow you are grasping straws there, those are two very different skills mechanically, for once hard light arena pulses. It shares boons which can be provided by other utilities. That 50% duration still guarantee an 100% light arena duration to allies.But these are also on completely different power levels.Beat stance, for example, potentially cleanses 10 conditions per ally and then also heals them for 2040 + 2,0 * healing power.Let that sink in, in a group it potentially removes 50 conditions with just a single skill.Dolyak stance gives an unique buff that reduces incoming strike and condition damage by 33%, meaning that it also works on top of protection.

Considering their power level, I think it is fair that you don't share the full duration of the stances.

it doesn't matter how much you insists, Ranger does not need another bruiser, Druid is already a bruiser and because of the nerfs Soulbeast needs to be played as a bruiser too >, check out Druid pvp with ROM to see it in action.We will keep to disagree about this one. Ranger still doesn't have a bruiser elite spec by design and you even acknowledge in this thread here that ranger is missing defensive features. I am fairly sure that the next elite spec for ranger from end of dragons will become a bruiser, let's just wait and see.

It's funny that people still haven't figured out that variety is not something Anet can 'engineer' into a class unless they make the majority of things across all classes homogeneous. Variety depends on what's optimal for the class for those game modes and the more focused the strategies are to win, the less variety you can have. That's not specific to GW2 either.

So more variety isn't the result of Anet being able to do something to fix it. What we have now ... is what we are going to get.

@"anduriell.6280" said:2 Specialitations later and we still play with the same 2 traitlines (WS and BM) for every single one. There is no real build variety same traits same utilities.

This is true for most of the classes and it's based on traits that are useful in certain gamemodes. You pretty much can't avoid it (or avoiding it completely would be incredibly hard) and this complaint is more-or-less a complaint about "meta builds existing". They'll always exist, if not for these traits, then for the changed/buffed ones.

From my point of veteran view:

That word means nothing btw (seeing how RPers sitting in towns for the past x years are also "veterans" -not that I have anything against RPers :p ), it's included solely to add some credibility to your opinions, which is also true about your avatar change since you've started pretending you want to "fix stealth" by pretty much removing it for certain classes, but leaving it untouched for the purposes ranger uses it for. It's just to try and add some illusion of credibility to your clearly biased and one-sided ideas. That just seems... intentionally fake to me, just saying.

• Having all the cleanses in WS does not help. It makes no sense to have Wilderness knowledge and Empathic Bond (thematically and mechanically) in the same traitline.

Why exactly "it doesn't make sense (both thematically and mechanically)"?And when you say "it does not help" do you mean it's because... you can't pick them both at the same time? Don't you think that's literally intended?

• WS brings aditional healing reliably which is sorely needed with a class with so little deffensive skills and traits
• BM brings movement speed and extra stats to pets which otherwise it would be able to hit anything.

So... You're complaining that "specialisations" are for "specializing"? Or about every specialisation not bringing the same utility, which would defeat the purpose for their existance in the first place? Both of these complaints make little to no sense to me, but if I'm wrong about your motives here, then correct me.

• Ranger does less damage than other clases

Pretty sure that's just wrong.

• No relevant condi traitline.

Condi ranger seems fine to me, why exactly would you need to add more to it? For the sake of "having some condi traits"? You understand that all you'd get here are condi nerfs and then you'd be bound to pick traits to compensate, right?

This simply makes ranger being pigeonholed into those 2 traitlines and build around that. Otherwise you are just boycotting yourself in making your gameplay even more clunky.

Again: it's dependant on the gamemode, also true for most -if not all- other classes and this really should be understandable/self-explanatory. Meta builds will always exist, certain traits/abilities/builds will always be better for some situations. Whether it's specs "A"+"B" right now or it would be specs "C"+"D" after the rebalance really changes nothing about that fact.

• Can we get the trait Empathic Bond moved back to beastmastery already?

Why? To buff a spec that doesn't need buffs?No, seriously: if that's not the reason, then why?

• Can we get the ICD in Evasive Purity trait removed?
• Can Invigorating Bond become a minor in the trailine?
• Can Windborne notes's heals tick for the duration we have regen instead only when applied?
• Can Natural Healing to tick every second, even if reducing the healing to match up to actual numbers?
• Can the minors Pack Alpha and Pet's prowess become baseline to all pets?
• Can Sharpened Edges become a minor in SKIRMISHING and get an aditional trait to trigger that effect more constantly?
• Can Strider's Defense be moved to marksmanship?
• Can Predator's Cunning trigger with bleeding too?
• Can we get back the Spirits Unbound trait?
• Can we get to share 100% of the stances duration with allies in Leader Of the Pack trait?

"Buff buff buff pls"Obviously I don't know the official answer, but my guess for most of these is: nope.

Ranger has good traits but half its utilities are underwelming and its weapon choices for damage are lacking.

Sword for example is designed for crippling your enemy while your pet takes on half the task of damage. Very 1v1 oriented weapon stuck in 2012.

Signet of renewal is a great cleanse but suffers from having to take allies condis and being a stun break. Signet builds would be more popular if they removed the stun break and lowered the cd by 15s. Then it can be used for condi clear and not to break stun. Stun break could be moved to signet of stone. That alone would open up many more choices.

Warhorn does far too little. Hunters call should do 2x more damage it does currently. Call of the wild needs to remove conditions or do an aoe knockback or something. That would make sword/warhorn a decent damage choice.

We have 3 core traits for cleanse, 2 in WS and 1 in NM, other classes are running around with 2-3 times more traits for condi cleanse, conversions or transfers in more traitlines so they can have a bit more build variety and still have condi counters, rangers can’t tho, rangers are basically forced to take WS to have condi cleanse. If we don’t take WS or NM, we have a choice of 4 skills, healing trap, lightning reflexes, SoR or nature spirit or any condi removal. Not a lot of options for condi cleanse.IMO, Skirmishing could do with a condi clear on weapon swap instead of gaining fury or swiftness, a little buff to an underused traitline would go along way to build variety.

@Abyssisis.3971 said:We have 3 core traits for cleanse, 2 in WS and 1 in NM, other classes are running around with 2-3 times more traits for condi cleanse, conversions or transfers in more traitlines

Preeeetty sure that's completely false. And still false in vast majority of cases even if we tone down your claim quite a bit.

@Abyssisis.3971 said:IMO, Skirmishing could do with a condi clear on weapon swap instead of gaining fury or swiftness, a little buff to an underused traitline would go along way to build variety.

Yes -in the exact same way tacking copies of additional effects on every trait in every spec would "increase build variety"... by making them all do everything at the same time. Apparent solution to every problem: "just overload the kitten out of my class pls!" :D

Yeah sure ... let's take out ANY deficiencies in a class that we don't like ... then argue we want 'variety'. How ironic.

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Abyssisis.3971 said:We have 3 core traits for cleanse, 2 in WS and 1 in NM, other classes are running around with 2-3 times more traits for condi cleanse, conversions or transfers in more traitlines

You would think so.... yet...

Ele has 7 traits in 4 linesWarrior has 4 traits in 3 lines excluding warhorn trait that grants resistanceRanger has 3 in 2 different lines + 3 in Druid/ +2 in soulbeastNecro has 6 in 4 linesGuard has 4 in 3 linesThief has 5 in 3 linesEngineer has 7 in 3 linesMesmer has 3 in 2 linesRev has 4 in 3 lines excluding the traits that grant resistant

I didn’t go through the other elite specs, but I’m sure they have some more as well.

@Sobx.1758 said:

Yes -in the exact same way tacking copies of additional effects on every trait in every spec would "increase build variety"... by making them all do everything at the same time. Apparent solution to every problem: "just overload the kitten out of my class pls!" :D

Like with steal? 1200 range teleport that can deal damage, deal condi, heal, daze and stealth?? Did I forget anything? Rangers don’t have anything like that, and asking for 1 condi cleanse in another traitline other than WS isn’t going to overload the class.

@Abyssisis.3971 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Abyssisis.3971 said:We have 3 core traits for cleanse, 2 in WS and 1 in NM, other classes are running around with 2-3 times more traits for condi cleanse, conversions or transfers in more traitlines

...and why exactly do you separate ranger from its especs but don't do the same for the other classes? Is it because your claim was wrong and you want to keep the appearance that you weren't or am I reading too much into this? :D

@Sobx.1758 said:

Yes -in the exact same way tacking copies of additional effects on every trait in every spec would "increase build variety"... by making them all do everything at the same time. Apparent solution to every problem: "just overload the kitten out of my class pls!" :D

Yup, aaaalmost (as in: not at all) -except these effects are granted by different traits and none of this has anything to do with what you've just quoted.

@"FrownyClown.8402" said:Ranger has good traits but half its utilities are underwelming and its weapon choices for damage are lacking.

Sword for example is designed for crippling your enemy while your pet takes on half the task of damage. Very 1v1 oriented weapon stuck in 2012.

Signet of renewal is a great cleanse but suffers from having to take allies condis and being a stun break. Signet builds would be more popular if they removed the stun break and lowered the cd by 15s. Then it can be used for condi clear and not to break stun. Stun break could be moved to signet of stone. That alone would open up many more choices.

Warhorn does far too little. Hunters call should do 2x more damage it does currently. Call of the wild needs to remove conditions or do an aoe knockback or something. That would make sword/warhorn a decent damage choice.

No to all these points.

Ranger has got some of the best utilities in the game:-Use signet of renewal on a soulbeast, pull condis then merge...situational and nice to have-Warhorn is great in many ways , "hunter's call" is great to trigger many sigils and other...utilities, nothing to change here-Sword is an amazing defensive weapon once you learn to use it, leap finisher/evade and decent dmg...nothing more to add

@Supreme.3164 said:

@"FrownyClown.8402" said:Ranger has good traits but half its utilities are underwelming and its weapon choices for damage are lacking.

Sword for example is designed for crippling your enemy while your pet takes on half the task of damage. Very 1v1 oriented weapon stuck in 2012.

Signet of renewal is a great cleanse but suffers from having to take allies condis and being a stun break. Signet builds would be more popular if they removed the stun break and lowered the cd by 15s. Then it can be used for condi clear and not to break stun. Stun break could be moved to signet of stone. That alone would open up many more choices.

Warhorn does far too little. Hunters call should do 2x more damage it does currently. Call of the wild needs to remove conditions or do an aoe knockback or something. That would make sword/warhorn a decent damage choice.

Sword is a good defensive weapon with decent damage for sure. Warhorn i would have to disagree. It offers very little in terms of support or damage. If hunters call offered a bit more damage the damage you could put out combined with sword would be good. No reason to run warhorn over a dagger in any situation other than a boonbeast build.

Signet with soulbeast has good synergy, but attaching a condi removal to a stun break is a problem imo.

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Abyssisis.3971 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Abyssisis.3971 said:We have 3 core traits for cleanse, 2 in WS and 1 in NM, other classes are running around with 2-3 times more traits for condi cleanse, conversions or transfers in more traitlines

@Sobx.1758 said:

Yes -in the exact same way tacking copies of additional effects on every trait in every spec would "increase build variety"... by making them all do everything at the same time. Apparent solution to every problem: "just overload the kitten out of my class pls!" :D

Those counts are core traits only, with the exception to druid/soulbeast which I’ve added as +counts besides the ranger count of 3. So Druid would have 6 and soulbeast would have 5. But like I said, I’m sure the other class elite specs would bring some more for their counts as well, I just didn’t have the time to get them this morning. I’m not making false claims, it’s all there for anyone to look at, load up your characters and check them out yourself. Doesn’t change the fact that rangers are pigeonholed into taking WS, specially wilderness knowledge to have condi counters whereas other classes have more options for it.

Except it does when you are talking about overloading a class. Steal can be way more overloaded than anything rangers can have. Haha And honestly do you really think buffing skirmishes line with a single condi cleanse would overload the line? I can’t see it personally.

Ranger is fine all lines are used ranger needs a change to its pets and some nerfs to its might and fury gen and dmg

I probably disagree with almost everything in the OP. :o

@Abyssisis.3971 said:Ele has 7 traits in 4 linesWarrior has 4 traits in 3 lines excluding warhorn trait that grants resistanceRanger has 3 in 2 different lines + 3 in Druid/ +2 in soulbeastNecro has 6 in 4 linesGuard has 4 in 3 linesThief has 5 in 3 linesEngineer has 7 in 3 linesMesmer has 3 in 2 linesRev has 4 in 3 lines excluding the traits that grant resistant

I didn’t go through the other elite specs, but I’m sure they have some more as well.

While I do not get to the same numbers on every class, let's just talk about those you've listed.

Yes, there are classes like Elementalist and Necromancers which - due to different reasons - have access to indeed twice the amount of condition removal, transfer or transformation. However, most other classes just got one or two more options than core Rangers. That sounds less drastic than 2 to 3 times less options, doesn't it? So I feel it is reasonable to state that there is a range of numbers of condition removal traits on classes. Ranger is in the bottom although most classes (from your list: Warrior, Guardian, Revenant) aren't far ahead. And even when emphasizing the importance of optional traitlines vs. options in total, Ranger is still on par with Mesmer traitwise.

However, that's a pretty skewed view even when just talking about traits.

• The quality of the condition removal is important. For example, traits in Acrobatics hardly measure up to Wilderness Knowledge.
• Elite specs represent a traitline and therefore do matter. There is no point in comparing core classes in a vacuum.

In the end, the whole package should be considered. Including Elites, skills and class mechanic. And when looking at the bigger picture, Ranger actually fares quite well when it comes to conditions. At least that's my personal experience when playing Ranger.

@Abyssisis.3971 said:Those counts are core traits only, with the exception to druid/soulbeast which I’ve added as +counts besides the ranger count of 3. So Druid would have 6 and soulbeast would have 5. But like I said, I’m sure the other class elite specs would bring some more for their counts as well, I just didn’t have the time to get them this morning. I’m not making false claims, it’s all there for anyone to look at, load up your characters and check them out yourself. Doesn’t change the fact that rangers are pigeonholed into taking WS, specially wilderness knowledge to have condi counters whereas other classes have more options for it.

Except it does when you are talking about overloading a class. Steal can be way more overloaded than anything rangers can have. Haha And honestly do you really think buffing skirmishes line with a single condi cleanse would overload the line? I can’t see it personally.

To get the Steal thing out of the way: Sobx is talking about a class/build overall, not a specific skill. Yes, Steal can be bloated pretty hard. Shatters and Beast skills have the same issue to a lesser extent, to be honest. It is due to design of the class mechanic and it's not very good design. However, while it can cause issues, Steal hardly carries the whole class. Overtraiting Steal mostly makes a build a one trick pony. Regardless, that's not what Sobx has been arguing.

What I do agree with: Having Empathic Bond and Wilderness Knowledge on the same tier isn't great. It could easily be in Beastmastery. I guess the bigger question would be if this made specific builds too strong or not. Looking at Shouts becoming Commands and therefore no longer working with Trooper Runes in the past, this might indeed be a reasonable concern. Therefore, reworking Empathic Bond into something different might be the better solution.

What I don't agree with: Adding universal condition removal to mainly offensive traitlines. This heavily negates the importance of choice and trade-off when picking traitlines and will lead to balancing issues. Maybe you could argue for some removal of movement impairing conditions in Skirmishing. However, I do feel that this isn't what certain people might actually be looking for :#

@Abyssisis.3971 said:Engineer has 7 in 3 linesCan't talk about the other classes, but solely going for core condi cleanse traits on engineer, this number is wrong.

Engineer got:2 in inventions (cleansing synergy and anticorrosion plating)1 in alchemy (transmute)technically 1 in tools (reactive lenses), since it is removing blind, but that's it, so it is an edge case for condi cleanse.

Even if we count the edge case of reactive lenses, this would mean engineer has 4 in 3 lines.

Maybe you can elaborate how you came up with a number of 7 condi cleanse traits for engineer? My guess is that you were counting stuff like comeback cure and purity of purpose, even if these traits provide no condi cleanse on their own, but are just improving the condi cleanse you already have with additional benefits (applying regeneration and converting condis into boons instead of cleansing).

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Abyssisis.3971 said:Engineer has 7 in 3 linesCan't talk about the other classes, but solely going for core condi cleanse traits on engineer, this number is wrong.

Cleansing synergy, Anticorrosion plating, transmute, purpose of purity, mecha legs, reactive lenses, iron blooded. That’s 7 by my count.

Those traits I counted this morning counter condi, whether remove, convert it or reduce it. If they don’t work they way I think they work it’s because I have maybe 5 hours as an engineer so was going off what the traits say, tho to be honest, Now that I think about it, POP shouldn’t be on the list now that I think about what it actually does.

So my count would be 6, not 7. My bad lol

@Abyssisis.3971 said:

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Abyssisis.3971 said:Engineer has 7 in 3 linesCan't talk about the other classes, but solely going for core condi cleanse traits on engineer, this number is wrong.

The conversation you responded to was specifically talking about cleansing traits.Which means that iron blooded, purity of purpose, and mecha legs do not count in the context that was discussed.

But I see what you mean. If you see it like this, then you also have to add shared anguish to the ranger list, since it transfers fear and taunt from the ranger to the pet, which are conditions.

@Xaylin.1860Sorry, don’t really have time to sit down and reply to everything you said, 12.5 hour work days suck. I would list every trait, but it would be along list, I did get one wrong for engineer, I may have gotten some of the others wrong, I won’t know till I actually make a list of which ones, but I also didn’t count those resistance granting ones for wars/revs, as stated.

I agree, quality of the traits does count, and some aren’t as good as others and that’s all well and good. I’m fine with that, it’s all part of the experience with fine tuning your build. What I’m not fine with is being forced to take a trait line to take a specific trait in order to have something to counter condi because the other other option is in NM and unless I’m using that trait line with that trait, then I’ve got to rely on Sigil, runes or skills, which again comes down to build options. Other classes have a bit more flexibility with their options to counter condi regardless of the quality of traits/skills.

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Abyssisis.3971 said:

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Abyssisis.3971 said:Engineer has 7 in 3 linesCan't talk about the other classes, but solely going for core condi cleanse traits on engineer, this number is wrong.

Didn’t think about that one, but yes, it would count as well. Ranger count 4.

@Abyssisis.3971 said:@Xaylin.1860Sorry, don’t really have time to sit down and reply to everything you said, 12.5 hour work days suck. I would list every trait, but it would be along list, I did get one wrong for engineer, I may have gotten some of the others wrong, I won’t know till I actually make a list of which ones, but I also didn’t count those resistance granting ones for wars/revs, as stated.

I agree, quality of the traits does count, and some aren’t as good as others and that’s all well and good. I’m fine with that, it’s all part of the experience with fine tuning your build. What I’m not fine with is being forced to take a trait line to take a specific trait in order to have something to counter condi because the other other option is in NM and unless I’m using that trait line with that trait, then I’ve got to rely on Sigil, runes or skills, which again comes down to build options. Other classes have a bit more flexibility with their options to counter condi regardless of the quality of traits/skills.

No problem. That's why I said I'll not argue about the specific numbers per class. Hope you can get some free time after such a long work day. ?

The thing is: the trade off you're describing is hardly unique to Ranger. Taking your own numbers, it's exactly the same for Mesmer traitwise. And when looking of the quality of respective traits, I'd argue Thieves don't have it much better. So are we arguing about other classes getting more options as well?

Of course, everyone has their preferences how to pick specific capabilities for their class. You obviously prefer to have condition removal from traits rather from skills. Fair enough. So do I. But that's just a preference and not a balance issue. And I'm also not convinced that it is a significant diversity issue since there are options outside from traits. At least personally, I'm having a hard time seeing how condition removal is an issue for Rangers overall.

[Edits]: Sorry. On the phone ?

@Abyssisis.3971 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Abyssisis.3971 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Abyssisis.3971 said:We have 3 core traits for cleanse, 2 in WS and 1 in NM, other classes are running around with 2-3 times more traits for condi cleanse, conversions or transfers in more traitlines

@Sobx.1758 said:

Yes -in the exact same way tacking copies of additional effects on every trait in every spec would "increase build variety"... by making them all do everything at the same time. Apparent solution to every problem: "just overload the kitten out of my class pls!" :D

Interesting, just like @"Kodama.6453", I can't exactly make your numbers "work", so it still seems false to me, not even mentioning your overblown "2-3 times more" claim.

^edit: might be because you're not counting just full condi cleanses, but also include the "limited" ones, where it removes a set group of condis, like strictly movement imparing ones.

Except it does when you are talking about overloading a class. Steal can be way more overloaded than anything rangers can have. Haha And honestly do you really think buffing skirmishes line with a single condi cleanse would overload the line? I can’t see it personally.

Like @Xaylin.1860 said, you seem to be missing the point and try to compare two different things. Seeing how apparently what I wrote was understood by some of other people, I wonder if you really don't understand what I wrote or maybe you're intentionally trying to stretch the comparison for the sake of making your argument.