Sunqua CM – Is the CC out of hands? — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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Sunqua CM – Is the CC out of hands?

Breaking Boss' CC bar is nothing new for me. But it's the first time in 8 years for me that people are desperate for every bit of CC. I saw groups wipe repeatedly, because they know how to CC, but don't have enough to do it. It is now so far that they are throwing items (consumable) to the ground to help breaking the bars, especially at 33% Boss health in the second phase.

Your opinion?

Comments

  • I think the encounter is balanced to people using cc consumables, which unfortunately lead to a power creep on cc, because able to avoiding bringing cc utilities in favor of a cc consumables will always be better. To justify the cc bar being nerfed, cc consumables probably also need to be disabled in the encounter. Otherwise cc consumables will make the fight trivial.

  • Erick Alastor.3917Erick Alastor.3917 Member ✭✭
    edited September 20, 2020

    I think the encounter is not balanced with stacking condi firebrand in mind.
    Everyone is trying to cheese it with condifb, but they forget how little cc they bring.
    I'll start to worry when despite bringing a core war and an alaren, cc still won't be enough.

  • @Erick Alastor.3917 said:
    I'll start to worry when despite bringing a core war and an alaren, cc still won't be enough.

    It works kind of. I played berserker with maces, 3 utilities with cc and headbutt. Meanwhile my group still spammed consumables. I think the cc required would be fine, if it werent so frequent. Skills have cd too. Meanwhile consumables have a short cd. We ended up to cc her every second time.

  • Talindra.4958Talindra.4958 Member ✭✭✭✭

    well.. I went and got myself a stack of rock, a stack of wooden plank, a stack of metal rod and some snowball stack (they are 8s each outch). I am still working on DwD .. not a lot of time to play. but I do believe in the future new fractal, please do not make CC that large to have to use consumable to break it, I like how fractal 99 Ark we can CC with special action skills, that is more appropriate. but its ok to use item from outside, people will just get used to it.

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  • My first experience with this boss was at T4. I just brought Flesh Golem on my reaper, along with reaper skill 4. While that wasn't enough to drop her entire bar, it takes off a fair chunk, plus Reaper Shroud takes off even more. If the rest of your party members all have 1 or 2 CC skills, it shouldn't really be a problem. We didn't use any consumables, and few of us had fought this boss before. I think everyone just needs to bring some CC, but not a whole lot.

  • skarpak.8594skarpak.8594 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 21, 2020

    @Erick Alastor.3917 said:
    I think the encounter is not balanced with stacking condi firebrand in mind.
    Everyone is trying to cheese it with condifb, but they forget how little cc they bring.
    I'll start to worry when despite bringing a core war and an alaren, cc still won't be enough.

    condi signet out, sanctuary in, cc bar: melts.
    that on 2 condi firebrands is already 1500 breakbar damage, add blazing edge & immob from scepter for lets say 5 seconds (cc bar probably won't be up for the whole duration, so lets cut it short) and you are sitting at over 2k already.

    its more then enough.

    i rather see a problem that other classes on the damage slot (apart from engi) could have a lot more troubles in breaking ccbars without sacrificing a lot of their damage. raid boss breakbar is kinda overdone for 5 man content...especially when there is no quick / hotbar for consumables. would not have a problem with that if that was the case...or that cc is a lot stronger in pve in general. they give us pulls and knockback which do like 150 breakbar damage and then some boss has a 4k breakbar...like comon.

  • cat.8975cat.8975 Member ✭✭✭

    The breakbars are fine. Consumables help but are not necessary. Swap out a utility for more CC if you need to.

    I research the game numbers and do wiki stuff sometimes. If you have any questions about how damage is calculated, feel free to ask me (easier to hit me up on reddit @ towelcat though)

  • I see more the problem that you need a complete different group composition then in other CMs because they are so little ways to cheese it and the way you burst with pre-stack the bosses in other fractals masks balancing problems with the current builds similar how consumables CC masking the lack of cc or the absurd abuse of them.

  • @Mad Queen Malafide.7512 said:
    My first experience with this boss was at T4. I just brought Flesh Golem on my reaper, along with reaper skill 4. While that wasn't enough to drop her entire bar, it takes off a fair chunk, plus Reaper Shroud takes off even more. If the rest of your party members all have 1 or 2 CC skills, it shouldn't really be a problem. We didn't use any consumables, and few of us had fought this boss before. I think everyone just needs to bring some CC, but not a whole lot.

    Breakbars are different on CM than normal mode. You need a lot more cc in CM.

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  • Carcharoth Lucian.1378Carcharoth Lucian.1378 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 21, 2020

    From the wiki (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Defiance_bar#Mob-specific_defiance_bars),
    Ai, Keeper of the Peak's breakbar = 3400 (for ref Arkk of CM99 is 1800)

    And the issue is more how often you need to cc (because skills have cd).

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  • @skarpak.8594 said:

    @Erick Alastor.3917 said:
    I think the encounter is not balanced with stacking condi firebrand in mind.
    Everyone is trying to cheese it with condifb, but they forget how little cc they bring.
    I'll start to worry when despite bringing a core war and an alaren, cc still won't be enough.

    condi signet out, sanctuary in, cc bar: melts.
    that on 2 condi firebrands is already 1500 breakbar damage, add blazing edge & immob from scepter for lets say 5 seconds (cc bar probably won't be up for the whole duration, so lets cut it short) and you are sitting at over 2k already.

    its more then enough.

    i rather see a problem that other classes on the damage slot (apart from engi) could have a lot more troubles in breaking ccbars without sacrificing a lot of their damage. raid boss breakbar is kinda overdone for 5 man content...especially when there is no quick / hotbar for consumables. would not have a problem with that if that was the case...or that cc is a lot stronger in pve in general. they give us pulls and knockback which do like 150 breakbar damage and then some boss has a 4k breakbar...like comon.

    Yep but that CD tho.
    750 every 48s (traited), we could even add a T1S3 (if tome not on cd) for extra 150 every 25s and a taunt (+75) (or few more) every 63s +250 immobilize (20s).
    You get like a CCps of ~35 (something more depending on being able to stand inside a tome and wait to spam few more cc).

    On a core war on the other hand u get
    300 from F3 mace (8s) + 300 from 5 mace (25s) + 100 mace 3 (12s) + 300 bull's (30s), also if u bring "to the limit!" u can probably recast F3 the the same cc window (which would be another 300 points, but I won't consider them).
    This is almost ~68 CCps.

    Forgive the wonky and approximative calculation, what I want to say is that u have way more cc and they're also available more often.
    Granted your dps will be probably kinda horrible having to move around so much, but still, in my experience dps was never that big of an issue, kitten mechanics/facetanking aoe was. Also going core with war u also get a free elite slot! And the banner can be a lifesaver!

    You can probably speedclear stacking fb, but all of them will have to perform good and also pay attention to cc, more than some are being used to imo.

  • chain of light: 300 15sec CD
    blazing edge 150 (tot 450) 9sec CD
    hammer of whisdom 200 (tot 650) 19sec CD
    symbol of vangeance 100 (tot 750) 6sec CD
    enter tome 1 do 23452
    heated rebuke 150 (tot cFB 900) 23sec CD
    shield of absorption 150 (tot hfb 650) 18sec CD

    add alac:
    surge of the mist 150 *3-9 time so 450 to 1350 15sec CD
    darkrazor 100 (up to 6) 100 to 600 (tot 550 to 1950 for alac) 9sec CD

    so if you go 3cFB 1hfb alac you have every 23sec: 3300-4700 (900+6002+650+550 to 1950)
    4cFB + alac you have every 23sec: 2850 to 4250 (800+500
    3+550 to 1950) 800 because you don't run 133 but 223
    I count only 1 chain of light as they add in duration and not intensity and I doubt there is 18/24 sec window time

    3400 isn't that bad tbf if all press their buttons.
    if really its an issue all can use a shovel and its 2500 on a 8sec cd for the whole group

    yes how often is an issue but what is listed above can be used every CC due to very short CDs highest is 23 sec (alac included) and the boss has a cc every 30sec so more that doable :)

  • @Carcharoth Lucian.1378 said:
    Breakbars are different on CM than normal mode. You need a lot more cc in CM.

    True, but my second attempt was on CM, and again, my group did not run into a whole lot of problems taking her breakbar down. But we focused mostly on her when she was in the middle, saving our precious CC for the right moment to stun her. I would not recommend CC'ing her when she is on the outside of the arena, if you are having difficulty with the breakbar. Just save your CC for when she is in the middle.

  • @Mad Queen Malafide.7512 said:

    @Carcharoth Lucian.1378 said:
    Breakbars are different on CM than normal mode. You need a lot more cc in CM.

    True, but my second attempt was on CM, and again, my group did not run into a whole lot of problems taking her breakbar down. But we focused mostly on her when she was in the middle, saving our precious CC for the right moment to stun her. I would not recommend CC'ing her when she is on the outside of the arena, if you are having difficulty with the breakbar. Just save your CC for when she is in the middle.

    Yeah ppl started to use "mid cc strat" ^^

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  • Erick Alastor.3917Erick Alastor.3917 Member ✭✭
    edited September 23, 2020

    @Fangoth.4503 said:
    chain of light: 300 15sec CD
    blazing edge 150 (tot 450) 9sec CD
    hammer of whisdom 200 (tot 650) 19sec CD
    symbol of vangeance 100 (tot 750) 6sec CD
    enter tome 1 do 23452
    heated rebuke 150 (tot cFB 900) 23sec CD
    shield of absorption 150 (tot hfb 650) 18sec CD

    Kinda, 'cause you usually don't hold tome1 for the cc, so it's not certain everyone will have 3 available when needed.
    Also basically a fb like this would just retain a single cdps utility.
    Not saying it doesn't work, coz it works, but why force it so much on it? For the burst?
    At this point why don't simply stack condirev? It would probably be way safer and easier, good mobility, good cc decent dps.
    Well anything can work anyway as long as ppl bring some brain.

  • Noah Salazar.5430Noah Salazar.5430 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 24, 2020

    well if you can't break cc look when red circle will spawn, 1-2s after boss will spin to win like warrior, so you just need move 2-3 steps back and wait till boss stop spining, then your safe to go

    even if your not break bar, this boss will not one shot you if you stay far as aoe are super small (mele range)

    i usualy do cm solo as scrapper so know mech well

    (yes i know if you break cc, you have +50% dmg for 5s)

  • Saniyah.1984Saniyah.1984 Member ✭✭✭

    I think the CC bar in 100CM iis ok, but people are like starting the demand consumables because... its easier so I think they should disable consumables

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 24, 2020

    At least for phase one, ignoring the sides completely and only going for mid CC, ideally breaking at the point when the red center AoE and individual circles on each player to spread out appear, definitely seems to be the way to go - as it interrupts that whole spread out phase and turns it into a DPS phase instead.

    Unless too many people waste CC on the sides, consumables shouldn't be needed after all if everybody brings some CC.

    /E:
    I think calling for the removal/disable of consumables is dangerous since Anet usually goes way too far with requests like that, ending up just dumbing down the game.
    Not only can consumables be really nice for soloing Fractals, a "ban" on such items could also extend to things like Portal Devices and such, which imo would be a shame to see done away with.
    Even as someone who greatly dislikes using consumables myself since it's so clunky (even more so for action cam players), I do like that Fractals aren't this 100% controlled environment which leaves room for player creativity and maximisation in things like pre-stacking, skips, portals and consumables.
    As long as they aren't essentially required, I think they are a great addition to the experience for those who want to put that extra work in.

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  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    is comsumables ok ? yes. Yes, it is ok. Is they 100% require for each setup on cm100? - no.

    side and sad story that not have easy way to bind than to some buttons, and need keep open inventary.
    Thats looks like in games 20 years ago ..

    on cm100 many setups can break bar by skill wihtout spec items .. if do command job.
    And one more main thing - why some people think that thay need break this cc alwyas on 100cm ?
    Make 2 steps far, look on floor, respect mechanic, be chill. On anomaly bomb hit also some non-pug setups not break cc, and use save abilities. You can find many video on youtube wiht no-cc success runs.

    cc is one of components for short meeele pdps attack party for pugs. But not main thing for evryone.

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • cat.8975cat.8975 Member ✭✭✭

    680 breakbar per person is incredible easy to achieve when you factor in how much a rev can do and how much time you have to break the bar. Stop trying to break at the first wall for smooth runs.

    I research the game numbers and do wiki stuff sometimes. If you have any questions about how damage is calculated, feel free to ask me (easier to hit me up on reddit @ towelcat though)

  • Jacky.7658Jacky.7658 Member ✭✭
    edited September 24, 2020

    Guild Wars 2's end game difficulty is already a joke comparing to other MMO. I agree with what cat.8975 said. As long as everyone are using their CC (DPS in particular), then it is completely manageable.

  • Saniyah.1984Saniyah.1984 Member ✭✭✭

    Consumables are not required but if it becomes a requirement in lfg it still is a problem. Players decided what is required not the game xD

  • Lord of the Fire.6870Lord of the Fire.6870 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 4, 2020

    This is the first time I use consumables when I played CMs already for a year . This fractals really force you to use them . The problem with cc in fractals was always that you have CD on both the skills and weapon sets so you can't access them in time if mechanic force you to do it. In this case it the different between wipe or not wipe because you have to decide run or cc in case of the cycles . In case of the mobs its really wipe or wipe . I also hate to go to the inventory.. it sucks

  • Yes it's ok if everyone use their cc, but in pug parties there are often ppl who don't :(
    In those cases cons are necessary unfortunatly.

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  • DirtyDan.4759DirtyDan.4759 Member ✭✭✭

    @Maria Murtor.7253 said:
    because they know how to CC, but don't have enough to do it.

    These two statements contradict each other. If you know how to cc you also know where your cc is.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I do not want carrying around CC consumables to become a trend. That's too much. Something about it feels sloppy.

  • I totally agree, there is too little time to break that bar compared to every other fractal in the game.