KPs good in high population - KPs bad in low population - No KPs is good in low population — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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KPs good in high population - KPs bad in low population - No KPs is good in low population

Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭

@Cyninja.2954 I tag you because you have the strongest stance to argue and I'm curious what you have to say.

Lately I haven't been able to be on at reset. I'm on NA servers. Lately I have to try and complete my fractal runs in between the hours of 2:00 am and 2:00 pm eastern time zone. This is not preferable, but it's just what I have to do right now. Of course you know, participating CM level player base is low at these times in the LFG. Some days are better than others and you get a group within 5 minutes, but other days a group won't form at all and you just have to go do something else for awhile and try again later.

So I feel like a lot of where some people's stance on the matter is coming from, is the standpoint of players who have the luxury of being able to log in around reset each night when the participating CM player base is high. It is important to note that this time frame is small, and not all of us have that luxury.

Here is the type of garbage that happens during off peak hours due to the imminence front of KPs. This just happened to me last night, and the entire time it was unfolding, I couldn't help but to have this thread on my mind https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/114669/no-kp-for-cm-fractals-is-that-gonna-increase-toxicity

  1. It's like 2:00 am eastern and I get some time to log in and try to run fractals.
  2. I search the LFG. Unfortunately I see no groups who want to run 100 Sunqua CM, they are all posted as 99/98 CM T4s. I see 3 different CM groups, 3 of them. There is a group with a BS War sitting in it by himself asking for a HB/Alac of 100 ESS. There is another group posting for 50 ESS that has a guardian and a thief sitting in it, and they are asking for alac/bs or dps. Then there is the third group that is a no ESS required CM listing that has a Rev sitting in it who is asking for HB. And then you have me looking to run CM T4s, which I main Soulbeast DPS but can adequately fill HB or Alac or BS if the group needs it.
  3. I analyze the situation and it hilariously occurs to me that we have a full group of players online at that very moment who want to run 99/98 CM T4s, who encompass a meta fractal party, yet they are divided into different parties due to KP ESS gating. I figured I would wait a few minutes and see which party was getting the most joins, and then I'd jump into the party that was filling the quickest because well, waiting around at 2:00 am in the morning is really boring. I don't care if my group is 90000 KPs or 0, I just want to start and get to playing. I don't really care if my run is +10 minutes or -10 minutes off the usual time frame.
  4. Must have been something like 5 minutes later, no one was joining any of those groups. I figured I'd take initiative and try to get the night moving because well, waiting sucks. So I joined the 100 ESS group and said to the guy: "Hey we've got two other groups in the LFG who would make for HB/Alac and another DPS. You want to just merge with these guys so we don't have to wait?" He proceeded to move around the fractal lobby so I know he wasn't AFK, but he didn't respond. I sat in there with him for another 5 minutes or so as I watched the LFG. I was ready to bail on him if the other groups were filling, but no one was joining any of these groups. I said to him again: "Yo, you want to merge with at least the 50 KP group?" Then he left party and vanished.
  5. So I merged with the 50 ESS group and joined their instance, which was a HB and a Daredevil. I immediately said to these guys: "You guys want to merge in that no KP Rev sitting down there in the LFG? Might as well at off peak hours" HB says to me: "Let's wait a few more minutes. People will join." So we wait another 5 minutes or something and another Soulbeast joins. I logged off and back on as Ren for those guys and told them we should just start while waiting for 5th. They seemed to agree but when the ready box popped up, lo and behold the Daredevil had apparently gone AFK during the wait and wasn't hitting ready. The Soulbeast quickly grew frustrated and within a couple minutes of waiting he left the party and vanished. The Daredevil quickly had returned after the Soulbeast left and said he was sorry, that he had his internet browser up in the background while we were waiting. We waited what must have been another 5 minutes or so, and at that point I had actually turned on Netflix in the background while we were waiting. Then the HB just up and left without saying anything.
  6. I left that group from the Daredevil and joined the no ESS required Rev who was now sitting with a Reaper in his group. I logged into HB for them and asked if it was ok if I changed the LFG to something that would just get players in there so we could start, because the wait times were kind of ridiculous that night. They said sure and I changed the LFG to "99/98 CM All Welcome +2 DPS" and then the group filled with +2 DPS within 60s and we began the CMs. It was a 20m to 30m run, no problems, went smoothly. And I couldn't help to think that if I had just joined this group to begin with, I could have saved myself 30 minutes of dinking around that night. And if I hadn't joined that group, I wouldn't have been able to form an ESS req group at all, unless I wanted to tank an inordinate amount of waiting.

So a few things to note:

  1. In a high population game that maintains high participation even during off peak hours, KPs are a wonderful system to utilize.
  2. In a lower population game, for those who can log in right at reset during peak hours, KPs are still a wonderful system to utilize.
  3. In a low population game, for those who are unable to log in at peak hours, KPs become a toxic system that in some cases completely prevents a group of players from joining together to play content at all. This is because of a placebo effect where the KPs change how players think. The KPs make them believe they are entitled to a standard of play efficiency and it makes them refuse to settle for less. This often results in players wanting to wait out inordinate amounts of time to achieve some desired party standard of efficiency before even beginning play. Even if they waited 20 minutes and failed to form the desired party standard, they'd rather log offline and try again tomorrow, than just get started playing with lowered standards. This is a large portion of the reason why raids died. KP Placebo. It's not that high KP participants believe the low KP participants will fail to complete the content, it's that high KP participants believe the low KPs can't run it properly. And if the high KPs cant' run it properly, they'd rather not run it all.
  4. ^ That is the very essence of "gamer elitism" where players become so knit picky about how they play, that they don't want to play at all unless everything is perfect. I'm not saying that this is right or wrong, but I am saying that it creates segregation within the community and when population gets low a decade into the game's lifespan, that segregation begins to kill game modes entirely, because players don't want to play together or can't play with certain players or won't allow certain players to play with them, all because of KP segregation. This very real effect can be exampled through the life & death of raids and the story I have written here in this thread.

If players want to live the KP life, they need to understand what they're encouraging within the community's sociology & communication and what they're injecting in the bloodstream of the game's lifeline. And they should understand that maybe this debacle over KPs is less about how a player feel subjectively during their nightly fractal run in the immediate heat of the debate, and a lot more about what can be done to ensure we have an active game mode to keep playing at all, in the coming years of Guild Wars 2.

Sometimes people vouch for things they don't fully understand the full consequences of, myself included.

What is written in this thread is simply what I have noticed to be the eventual cause & effect of KPs in Guild Wars 2 game modes. And that's even including rating & badge icons in competitive modes. It's the same thing, essentially it's KPs, and it has every bit the same exact social consequences as it does with KPs in pve modes.

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Comments

  • Illconceived Was Na.9781Illconceived Was Na.9781 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 22, 2020

    That's a lot of words to say that people who are unwilling to compromise on their criteria will wait longer than people who are willing. And, that those wait times increase substantially as the population drops, becoming more noticeable during off-peak hours.

    Moreover, I didn't see any examples of hostility, let alone toxicity: one player was slightly rude (didn't reply) and some were more willing to wait than you.

    PS while some people insist on KP past the point of common sense (as is their right), I'm sure we both know tons of people that hate to wipe-and-try-again more than they mind waiting. One can do other stuff while waiting, but not when wiping. For many, it's not about completing the content as quickly as possible, but more about wanting a worry-free experience. Struggling through for the Nth time is draining, to many. It's not what people are looking for in their "high end content" experience. (And yes, mileage varies.)

    Hype is the path to the dark side. Hype leads to unfulfilled expectations. Disappointment leads to anger. Anger leads to disgust. Disgust leads to "oh, new shinies! I'm back!"

  • Yeah, I gotcha.

    I guess my ultimate point here is that if people aren't willing to play together, we won't have a game left to play.

    Normally I wouldn't have thought that fractals would have been in the threat zone for a problem like this, similar to what killed raid activity. But the more CM fractals they add, the more specialization that is indeed required to be able to complete the content in a timely fashion, which makes for rising expectational standards.

    Fractal group activity & sociology is becoming raid like and it will soon face the same problems. I don't have the best answer to the problem or any suggestions at all really. I'm just here to point out that KPs although a great system to distinguish & highlight efficiency, are a double edged sword vs. the longevity of community cohesion.

    Play how you want.

  • Armen.1483Armen.1483 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 22, 2020

    Many players with low experience feel "discriminated" with the high kp demands and they feel that they can perform as good as players with high KP. It is completely wrong. I have experienced so many times people join my groups and say if they can join with the half of the kps demanded. Why would they do that ? The waiting times of low kp/no kp is 0. You can create an all welcome/all classes group for CMs and see your group fill in a second. And each time I've accepted them I have regreted. They say "trust me I am good" then die instantly and ask why there are no heals in a no healer comp. Literally today somebody asked a qfb to heal him with f2 tome "because he can", and it was qfbs fault that he died from a oneshot mechanic. In reality it was my fault that I have accepted him to our group while he didn't meet the requirements. So yes, I'd rather wait an hour or not play at all than experience these kinds of things. 150 KP is the MINIMAL that can assure you somewhat calm chill non toxic and smooth run. If you got no KP, just train and stack some red celestial infusions.

  • Yellow Rainbow.6142Yellow Rainbow.6142 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 22, 2020

    @armen,
    I have over 500 kp but I have never played without healer in CM.
    So can I do it without healer?
    Sure I can not do it. Not without few dry runs.
    Kp means garbage after 50 or so.
    Btw, those 150+kp people that you pug, they started from 0. And, you get to enjoy playing with them because people like me showing them rope and giving them chance.
    If everyone thought the way you do, you are right that you would be waiting hr or not play .

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    first comment: if people do lfg group, this is not mean that thay not have alternative.
    Example: so I make group, ask 300kp. Currently solo on wvw., or open map, or do so hearts, So I people come - and have requirements - ok, not come - no problem.
    mostly many cms player when do group can do it 1 hour, 2 hours .. no matter and await is ok.

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • Armen.1483Armen.1483 Member ✭✭✭

    @Yellow Rainbow.6142 said:
    @armen,
    I have over 500 kp but I have never played without healer in CM.
    So can I do it without healer?
    Sure I can not do it. Not without few dry runs.
    Kp means garbage after 50 or so.
    Btw, those 150+kp people that you pug, they started from 0. And, you get to enjoy playing with them because people like me showing them rope and giving them chance.
    If everyone thought the way you do, you are right that you would be waiting hr or not play .

    I will quote you:

    @Yellow Rainbow.6142 said:
    I dont see point on this. Fractal lfg has not been problem for mostly none of us. It will only breed problem.
    Why look for solution when there is no problem.

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1302978#Comment_1302978

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 23, 2020

    Honestly I've seen the exact same thing happen multiple times with a bunch of no KP groups, same KP groups, or in different content like Dungeons which doesn't even have KP.

    People just want to sit comfortably and let someone else manage the LFG or for people to join in after their rules, rather than merge around and adapt etc.

    While KP can play a minor additional role in this, it's once again not mainly a systemic issue or flaw with KP.

    What I do agree with though is that KP wouldn't at all be an issue if the player base (and for that to happen content release cadence for hardcore content) would be much more healthy, with especially non-hardcore players just making their own groups.
    If there is barely any (new) content and there is just a very small super dedicated playerbase with high requirements left, then ofc that's hard to get into and problematic.
    But the issue there aren't the dedicated players and their requirements, it's the lack of alternatives caused by lack of new content, lack of new player influxes, and nobody else stepping up and just making their own non-requirement LFG's.

    Also just in general the community culture of non communication which the majority of ingame content bred.
    If 99% of the game, be it open world bosses, meta events, trading, story etc. etc. etc never require any communication, grouping, compromising, adaptation etc., you can't suddenly expect people to be (pro-)active in managing groups for Fractals and content like it, communicating with each other cross groups to sort things out.

    The vast majority of people just want to join a listing and at most communicate their role, not even make their own LFG. That's the level of socialisation we are at in GW2. That has nothing to do with KP though.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Henry.5713Henry.5713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    It is time to move on to another game if you are unable to find enough like-minded people to run group content with, especially if this group content is the only thing you enjoy. Removing the very few means avaible to us to ensure we find the few remaining like-minded or equally experienced players will not make us stay, just like it will not make us suddenly enjoy playing the game in a more casual manner.

    Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something. ~ Robert Heinlein

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 25, 2020

    @Henry.5713 said:
    It is time to move on to another game if you are unable to find enough like-minded people to run group content with, especially if this group content is the only thing you enjoy. Removing the very few means avaible to us to ensure we find the few remaining like-minded or equally experienced players will not make us stay, just like it will not make us suddenly enjoy playing the game in a more casual manner.

    Literally every word you just said in every way examples what I said about how KPs changes how a player thinks.

  • @Cyninja.2954 said:

    KP are a player made solution to deal with of lack of content and the resulting effect of: stay complacent for years (I believe the fewest players play the same content the exact same way for multiple years), improve (make the content interesting by honing ones skills as to overcome the content as best as one can) or drop out (everybody who just gets bored and quits, no matter the skill level).

    Tbh there could be a 4th option: try new ways of doing the old things. Yush, new things aren't meta but does everything need to be always optimal, always done in the same way again and and again for hundreds of times. ANYONE would get bored from that yet the hardcore player base insists on doing things that way, whine about lack of challenging content and how things are getting boring. In all honesty, Kitty actually finds hardcore community's way of thinking very illogical: they always try to cheese the content by taking the easiest way out (if you actually do the friggin mechanics instead of phasing with high dps before bosses do anything, stuff can actually get challenging) and they whine when balance changes to shake things up and they need to learn a new rotation. So yeah...

    Tbh, one of the big reasons why Kitty keeps on theorizing new comps, builds and strategies is to keep things fresh and challenging while still imbuing failsafes in case stuff goes wrong into her tactics and she's adding and stripping those failsafes as needed... Or abusing them to greeeeeed. What Kitty does isn't the most optimal way to play but she compensates by trying harder to get as close to optimal results on something that underperforms or needs to take a harder route to get the same results. And sometimes Kitty's strats are even more guaranteed to clear content that what people generally use simply due to abusing some gimmicks that are minor dps losses but make dying very difficult and allowing Kitty to do some extremely greedy stuff for extra dps that builds benching 3-5k higher can't even dream about doing.
    So, tl;dr metacentric hardcore community are themselves causing the very problems they have which could be partly remedied with change of attitude and Anet can't do much to fix them.

    It's Kitty. The young lady who streams and records videos playing various (non-)metabuilds. Raid/fractal videos at youtube.com/LadyKitty, Kittymarks test results at youtube.com/Kittymarks and tinyurl.com/Kittymarks.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 26, 2020

    @LadyKitty.6120 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    KP are a player made solution to deal with of lack of content and the resulting effect of: stay complacent for years (I believe the fewest players play the same content the exact same way for multiple years), improve (make the content interesting by honing ones skills as to overcome the content as best as one can) or drop out (everybody who just gets bored and quits, no matter the skill level).

    Tbh there could be a 4th option: try new ways of doing the old things. Yush, new things aren't meta but does everything need to be always optimal, always done in the same way again and and again for hundreds of times. ANYONE would get bored from that yet the hardcore player base insists on doing things that way, whine about lack of challenging content and how things are getting boring. In all honesty, Kitty actually finds hardcore community's way of thinking very illogical: they always try to cheese the content by taking the easiest way out (if you actually do the friggin mechanics instead of phasing with high dps before bosses do anything, stuff can actually get challenging) and they whine when balance changes to shake things up and they need to learn a new rotation. So yeah...

    Tbh, one of the big reasons why Kitty keeps on theorizing new comps, builds and strategies is to keep things fresh and challenging while still imbuing failsafes in case stuff goes wrong into her tactics and she's adding and stripping those failsafes as needed... Or abusing them to greeeeeed. What Kitty does isn't the most optimal way to play but she compensates by trying harder to get as close to optimal results on something that underperforms or needs to take a harder route to get the same results. And sometimes Kitty's strats are even more guaranteed to clear content that what people generally use simply due to abusing some gimmicks that are minor dps losses but make dying very difficult and allowing Kitty to do some extremely greedy stuff for extra dps that builds benching 3-5k higher can't even dream about doing.

    True, but again, you are implying that this is not already the case, which it is. There are a lot of "safe" strats or players, only that those do not get communicated as well as top end strats. Good examples here: heal tempest and heal scourge, which are great carries to make certain content irrelevant.

    People need to remember 1 thing: the mainstream developments are just that MAINSTREAM. There are tons of players trying out stuff: for example power reaper or similar builds, and the argument which goes along there, are more than viable for smooth and clean clears (the biggest exception here might be support compositions since damage dealers are often interchangeable and there is a lack of equal support compositions with access to the required/desired boons).

    That is not the point though. The point is: the vast majority of players will gravitate to the least amount of effort for the biggest reward (within the scope of their understanding of the game, which for many is lacking when they simply copy/paste other people's work) and this is unrelated to how many players decide to go "off meta". Which again is another issue within its self: going off meta actually requires MORE and BETTER game knowledge, which players who are struggling with the current content will not have. Which results in even more shun of off meta builds.

    Also of note here again: KP are actually a solution to this issue. If someone comes along with the required KP, even on an off meta build, chance are far higher that the group will let it slide, expecting that the player knows what he is doing, even on a theoretically sub-optimal build/class. Unfortunately, the discussion for and against KP gets be-muddled because the different benefits and detriments get lumped together. If you lack KP and thus have issues with group acceptance, that is not the same as not being able to play on a non meta build, which can also lead to lack of group acceptance.

    @LadyKitty.6120 said:
    So, tl;dr metacentric hardcore community are themselves causing the very problems they have which could be partly remedied with change of attitude and Anet can't do much to fix them.

    That is just a superficial analysis of multiple reasons as to WHY meta builds get adopted by many players. The first and foremost reason being: game population wide lack of class understanding in all of it's possible varieties both on one hand from players who want to push the boundaries to the max (and likely have the experience needed to deviate from those meta classes, but chose not to) and on the other hand of simple copy paste players who simply take other people's builds (and very likely lack the actual experience themselves to deviate from these builds) without actually having the capacity to expand upon these (or the desire to do so).

    TL;DR:

    • Players who have the skill and ability to deviate from meta builds chose to do so, or not, depending on how they feel. These players are a vast minority and will not affect a change in the meta.
    • Players who lack the skill and ability to deviate from meta builds are reliant on using builds they did not come up with themselves, and lack the ability to make better builds in the first place, thus preventing them from evoking a meta shift. These players are a vast majority (sort of like sheep following a sheepherder).
    • KP if used as a determining factor or judgement of player experience, in a similar way as damage meters, can actually alleviate this issue because the focus gets put on the performance or expected performance (for KP it is expected performance, for damage meters it is visible performance) of the player instead of the class they bring.
  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 26, 2020

    @LadyKitty.6120 Couldn't agree more with your post. I get bored and experiment with extremely alternative builds all of the time. Not only are some of them surprisingly effective, but others in my opinion challenge or replace current metas for several reasons. I subscribed to your channel btw. Interesting & fresh.

    @Cyninja.2954 So many people adhere to posted meta because it's commercial & easy to do, due to sites like snowcrows or metabattle. It's the same reason why people buy a Coca Cola or a Pepsi when they stop at a gas station if they want a soda pop. Are these necessarily the best flavors possible that a man could configure into a soda pop? Probably not but it's really convenient and easily available, acceptable. Trying to sit at home and build your own soda pop requires effort. Then even if your home brew soda pop is honestly better than mainstream commercial soda pop, convincing people at a party preparation to let you bring a case of your home brew in place of something mainstream that people know and accept isn't so easy to do because well, it's a lot easier to just bring a case of Coca Cola or Mountain Dew, that we all know everyone already likes and will accept without any fuss.

    Current posted commercial metas focus on one and one thing only and that is maximum levels of DPS, and then they build everything else around that. This is great for some players who are dedicated enough or possess enough inherent gamer aptitude or who are patient enough to adapt to it. For years I viewed these commercial metas as something that helped the community cross the bridge of comp organization confusion, to give them something to agree on. But lately I am beginning to question that.

    A few things:

    1. Traditional commercial metas focus on DPS. Many of the builds they encourage to use don't even individually possess a single stun break or defensive trait/utility. For very experienced players who want to push speed clears to the limit, this is great. But it isn't optimized in terms of allowing a group high success rates in completing the content, unless they are very experienced.
    2. Raid participation dropped through the floor into a state that most people would say "it's dead" and this happened due to many circumstances. Might I note the keyword there is "circumstances" as in, I don't believe Raid participation needed to die or was fated to die due to some design error on the programmer's part. It was all circumstantial in the aspect that commercial meta expectation as noted in 1), segregated the community and the veterans were sort of tricked into believing that Raids should only be ran while using commercial meta. Then we had a problem brewing, which eventually led to groups being too difficult to access for newcomers. Three reasons for this mainly, which happen in steps: (A) If not running commercial meta = kick, regardless of the player's aptitude. Then (B) Make a meta and still get kicked because not experienced enough or not meeting DPS expectations. And then (C) Try to practice with other new players who all also believe they are supposed to be running commercial meta, who wipe constantly who can't survive, no one gets anything done, and players eventually decide the hassle isn't worth the reward so they stop showing up. <- All of this diminishing player base is a symptom of people believing they must run commercial dps meta designed for high-end veteran play. They immediately get booted out of squads when they don't. So can you blame them when they just stop showing up?
    3. I believe that the complete disappearance of commercial meta sites would eventually re-inspire much more participation in a mode like Raids, given an amount of time where the commercial mind effect of meta expectations began to diminish. Then groups both veteran and newcomers, would begin allowing players into squads again based on general needs rather than perfections. And when that happened, I think everyone would be surprised at how many players would show up and participate if their more survivable builds that were missing 10-15% top DPS were acceptable rather than a reason to instant kick.

    Obviously we'll never see the disappearance of meta websites, they bring in too many hits to ever go away. But imagine if the people making the decisions behind posted commercial meta were to go about the posted meta in a different way. Imagine if posted meta purposely dropped about 10% to 15% of dps off every build in place of granting those builds double or triple the sustain & survivability. Now you have a meta where players don't need to be veterans or highly dedicated or possess peak aptitude to be able to get involved in. Now you have a meta that is approachable for newcomers, where they can make mistakes during a raid and not immediately wipe, which gives them time to actually learn the raid mechanics without it being too frustrating to deal with or overly difficult. If this were to happen, and social expectations shifted towards that, there would be a lot more people interested to get involved in raids again. And the thing is, it wouldn't complicate high-end veteran dps meta at all. They can continue on in their guilds and LFG postings as usual. What's important is giving the more casual player base some kind of a new standard to agree on, something that works that isn't as fast of a clear, that is safer and more approachable. Honestly these commercial websites need to post for a "High Risk High Reward Meta" for the usual DPS oriented metas, and then also give an organization that works for a "Safe Completion Meta" so players who are playing like this have an arrangement to agree upon as well. Then in LFGs you could see a squad formation like: "HRHR wing 1" or "SCM Wing 2". <- I mean, that would very seriously solve so many problems. Not even sure why this hasn't already been organized.

    Anyway, my point in bring all of this up was to point out how powerful of influence propaganda & commercial is, and how it changes the way an entire community thinks or views something. Just because meta is posted as meta, doesn't mean it is the best way or the only way. It just means that it is the way being promoted & encouraged, which gives the community some standard to base their judgements from. Decide for yourself if you think it's healthy or not.

  • LadyKitty.6120LadyKitty.6120 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 26, 2020

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    Honestly these commercial websites need to post for a "High Risk High Reward Meta" for the usual DPS oriented metas, and then also give an organization that works for a "Safe Completion Meta" so players who are playing like this have an arrangement to agree upon as well. Then in LFGs you could see a squad formation like: "HRHR wing 1" or "SCM Wing 2". <- I mean, that would very seriously solve so many problems. Not even sure why this hasn't already been organized.

    Anyway, my point in bring all of this up was to point out how powerful of influence propaganda & commercial is, and how it changes the way an entire community thinks or views something. Just because meta is posted as meta, doesn't mean it is the best way or the only way. It just means that it is the way being promoted & encouraged, which gives the community some standard to base their judgements from. Decide for yourself if you think it's healthy or not.

    Back in 2018, Kitty actually once had a website (Kittymarks) where she shared easier builds (that were laughed off as jokes since Kitty was kitten a lot and she only had 300ish raid kills at that point) and she's also shown tons of simplified builds on her youtube but she's kinda stopped bothering as things that don't really seem to change. She's been just mostly getting flak for challenging the super-exp dps-focused players' views on what less experienced players should do and what'd be the most successful way for them to raid and she's just kinda given up on that after 2,5 years of trying to change things.

    It's Kitty. The young lady who streams and records videos playing various (non-)metabuilds. Raid/fractal videos at youtube.com/LadyKitty, Kittymarks test results at youtube.com/Kittymarks and tinyurl.com/Kittymarks.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 26, 2020

    I don't think there is a problem with kill proofs.

    If top end players want to split themselves off from the bigger group of players, let them do it.
    There is no point in trying to force them to play with the average players.

  • @Fueki.4753 said:
    I don't think there is a problem with kill proofs.

    If top end players want to split themselves off from the bigger group of players, let them do it.
    There is no point in trying to force them to play with the average players.

    Yes yes, but can't we all agree that the micro example of an mmorpg very adequately mirrors macro examples of real life communities & societies. There are college programs that research mmorpg activity for that very reason. They research things like economics & sociology through mmorpgs because things happen lightning fast in an mmorpg, but it mirrors how things happen in the long term in real life societies. Convenient way to research many things.

    My point being is that, the ideology you mention about "let them do what they want" is similar to an anarchist point of view where people believe they should be able to do whatever they want, even if those actions are harming a community in other ways. Of course because this is a video game, people don't care so much to argue why they want something changed so that that bad effect wouldn't be spread through a community due to a small demographic of elites. But in real life, literally wars are fought over such things when a large demographic of people within a community identify that something a small demographic is doing, is creating a lot of problems for the larger demographic. Usually it happens when that small elite demographic goes too far and removes too much QOL from the larger demographic. Then they start fighting.

    Yes, this is a video game and you can do whatever you want as there are no laws beyond what Arenanet sets. That's fine, enjoy it. But that doesn't mean that what a player does or encourages is necessarily "ok" or "healthy" for community cohesion or the longevity of the game's health in general. And it certainly doesn't mean that there aren't better ways to go about things that have no yet been noticed.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    My point being is that, the ideology you mention about "let them do what they want" is similar to an anarchist point of view where people believe they should be able to do whatever they want, even if those actions are harming a community in other ways. Of course because this is a video game, people don't care so much to argue why they want something changed so that that bad effect wouldn't be spread through a community due to a small demographic of elites. But in real life, literally wars are fought over such things when a large demographic of people within a community identify that something a small demographic is doing, is creating a lot of problems for the larger demographic. Usually it happens when that small elite demographic goes too far and removes too much QOL from the larger demographic. Then they start fighting.

    Yes, this is a video game and you can do whatever you want as there are no laws beyond what Arenanet sets. That's fine, enjoy it. But that doesn't mean that what a player does or encourages is necessarily "ok" or "healthy" for community cohesion or the longevity of the game's health in general. And it certainly doesn't mean that there aren't better ways to go about things that have no yet been noticed.

    My point is closer to "If they want to stay inside all day instead of going out and meeting people, let them!" than it is to any pseudo-political form of existence.
    It's not like those KP-seekers are harming anyone, except the egos of the selfish people that demand top end player to mingle with the average.
    For all practical applications they are their own little community and not part of the bigger community.
    It's actually those selfishly demanding people that try to harm both communities.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 27, 2020

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    Obviously we'll never see the disappearance of meta websites, they bring in too many hits to ever go away. But imagine if the people making the decisions behind posted commercial meta were to go about the posted meta in a different way. Imagine if posted meta purposely dropped about 10% to 15% of dps off every build in place of granting those builds double or triple the sustain & survivability. Now you have a meta where players don't need to be veterans or highly dedicated or possess peak aptitude to be able to get involved in. Now you have a meta that is approachable for newcomers, where they can make mistakes during a raid and not immediately wipe, which gives them time to actually learn the raid mechanics without it being too frustrating to deal with or overly difficult. If this were to happen, and social expectations shifted towards that, there would be a lot more people interested to get involved in raids again. And the thing is, it wouldn't complicate high-end veteran dps meta at all. They can continue on in their guilds and LFG postings as usual. What's important is giving the more casual player base some kind of a new standard to agree on, something that works that isn't as fast of a clear, that is safer and more approachable. Honestly these commercial websites need to post for a "High Risk High Reward Meta" for the usual DPS oriented metas, and then also give an organization that works for a "Safe Completion Meta" so players who are playing like this have an arrangement to agree upon as well. Then in LFGs you could see a squad formation like: "HRHR wing 1" or "SCM Wing 2". <- I mean, that would very seriously solve so many problems. Not even sure why this hasn't already been organized.

    Anyway, my point in bring all of this up was to point out how powerful of influence propaganda & commercial is, and how it changes the way an entire community thinks or views something. Just because meta is posted as meta, doesn't mean it is the best way or the only way. It just means that it is the way being promoted & encouraged, which gives the community some standard to base their judgements from. Decide for yourself if you think it's healthy or not.

    The reason such things haven't been implemented is not because Meta sites are the problem. They provide a valuable service for reference, at which point it's down to what people at large do with it, and that's where the problem is.
    We live in a society where everybody is being pushed to perform the best to be competitive in a market. To always have the strongest, fastest, newest shiniest whatever.
    Competency be damned, most people have no idea what's good, great or the best, and don't have the ability to discern that for themselves, let alone knowing what they actually need and what suits them best. And since everybody is special and can do and be everything they want to, ofc everybody is going to go for the fastest and "best" available option, if they can actually handle or benefit from it or not.

    So no, I don't put blame on benchmarkers and reviewers and testers for giving people benchmarks and such on cars, graphics cards, video game classes or what have you, objective information to make choices upon is never the issue. The issue is what people then tend to do with that information, thinking being on the top is the only place to and way to be, when really for the vast majority of people being in a healthy middle benefits them so much more.

    But being reasonably efficient, healthily middle of the road and having fun and contentedness doesn't sell, it's not supposed to. Have the top end, use the top and be the top end, or gtfo.

    What you wish for could "easily" be achieved in game both with things like meta sites and benchmarks existing as well as KP. The problem is the mindset at large, and even if you abolish both of those elements that mindset remains, the way people get there, due to having less objective and good information available, is just more muddled, toxic and actually discriminatory.

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    My point being is that, the ideology you mention about "let them do what they want" is similar to an anarchist point of view where people believe they should be able to do whatever they want, even if those actions are harming a community in other ways.

    I don't think you quite grasp the concept or at least breadth of anarchy, which considering all the hollywood propaganda and such around, equating it with chaos, violence and selfishness, isn't unsurprising. But especially for example libertarian socialism is more of a rejection of authority and tyranny in favour of the community.
    Anarchy as a whole though is more focused on personal responsibility as part of a wider, equal, community.
    If you are looking for a system encouraging personal enrichment, power based hierarchies and self-indulgence at the cost of community, then I'm afraid you won't have to look far - we are in it.

    Not to get too political and I don't think, in accordance with Forums rules, it's wise to discuss this here properly on a deeper level, but I did want to respond to at least that.
    It is interesting how outside ideology does affect gaming communities as a mirror of such after all, although likely not the right place here.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Low population, high population, i don't care. What i do care about is getting insulted by "new" players that can't prove anything. When i post 100kp or 150 kp on lfg (which is not outrageous), i don't want that new https: killproof.me nonsense. If there is a required "old"kp amount on lfg, you spam it or you don't join, simple as that. Not our fault if anet changed the kp system. And since the new release, leechers have become a huge pain. Learn your class, do training runs and don't insult those who call you out an your lies.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 29, 2020

    @36F0A0BB-7480-4A73-8575-EED6DF06FE19 said:
    Low population, high population, i don't care. What i do care about is getting insulted by "new" players that can't prove anything. When i post 100kp or 150 kp on lfg (which is not outrageous), i don't want that new https: killproof.me nonsense. If there is a required "old"kp amount on lfg, you spam it or you don't join, simple as that. Not our fault if anet changed the kp system. And since the new release, leechers have become a huge pain. Learn your class, do training runs and don't insult those who call you out an your lies.

    Yeah, make a guild man.

    I mean the LFG was kind of made for public use, to quite literally embody the idea of "PUGing".

    Of course the LFG isn't limited to rando PUG groups, but I feel like this high KP community is expecting way way way too much elite formation out of a public join function. At this point, instead of making a debacle over it, use the opportunity as a reason to form an elite CM Fractal guild, so you know where all the good players are all of the time. I was considering doing it myself actually. And I don't mean a small project either. I'm talking a large scale guild that asks for even solid KP proof screenshots before joins, and/or just evaluation during play before join. Something that the entire remainder of the community base can be involved in. This way we can leave LFG to PUG groups and understand what is to be expected when we are PUGing.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 29, 2020

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @36F0A0BB-7480-4A73-8575-EED6DF06FE19 said:
    Low population, high population, i don't care. What i do care about is getting insulted by "new" players that can't prove anything. When i post 100kp or 150 kp on lfg (which is not outrageous), i don't want that new https: killproof.me nonsense. If there is a required "old"kp amount on lfg, you spam it or you don't join, simple as that. Not our fault if anet changed the kp system. And since the new release, leechers have become a huge pain. Learn your class, do training runs and don't insult those who call you out an your lies.

    Yeah, make a guild man.

    I mean the LFG was kind of made for public use, to quite literally embody the idea of "PUGing".

    Of course the LFG isn't limited to rando PUG groups, but I feel like this high KP community is expecting way way way too much elite formation out of a public join function. At this point, instead of making a debacle over it, use the opportunity as a reason to form an elite CM Fractal guild, so you know where all the good players are all of the time. I was considering doing it myself actually. And I don't mean a small project either. I'm talking a large scale guild that asks for even solid KP proof screenshots before joins, and/or just evaluation during play before join. Something that the entire remainder of the community base can be involved in. This way we can leave LFG to PUG groups and understand what is to be expected when we are PUGing.

    Yet those top end players are literally pugging, too.
    After all, being in a PUG has nothing to do with one's abilities.
    Why should they not use a tool that's literally made for their needs?
    Also, despite the game's name, not everyone wants to be in a guild.

    Just ignore their LFG entries and make your own, casual PUGs.
    The top end PUGs usually aren't hurting anyone who respects their requirements.

  • @Fueki.4753 said:
    After all, being in a PUG has nothing to do with one's abilities.

    ^ Indeed. That's kind of the entire point of what I'm saying.

    Also, despite the game's name, not everyone wants to be in a guild.

    Yup, I feel the same. But at this point the guild UI is beginning to have growing purpose again for CM fractals. Not wanting to join a guild to make your goals more convenient is as hard-headed as hanging onto a KP system based from a dead currency that is no longer obtainable.

    Look man, it was one thing a year or two ago, when KP checks were generally 20 to 50 and within reason for newcomers to be able to obtain and participate. But now with 250 checks and a new system that makes the old KP unobtainable for newcomers, hanging on to this idea of obsolete KP will eventually result in not having anyone to play with. Keywords there are will and eventually. Old players will leave, new players will rise who are just as good as the old players but who are unable to obtain obsolete KPs.

    At some point you guys are going to have to figure out something different for your skill checks. It's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when. And when that reality hits hard here within the next 6 months, it will widely happen through the formation of fractal guilds. It will be the only way to maintain consistent smooth CM reset groups. In fact, it will in all likelihood actually greatly reduce wait times & frustration with inadequate PUGs. If 15 players are in a guild and all already know that everyone is CM speed run worthy, there won't be any need for LFGing at all, outside of an odd night where a slot needs to be filled out of the 3 groups formable through the guild.

    I'm nearly completely convinced that in the long term, it will be the healthiest thing for the longevity of the game mode for several reasons.

  • Wisty.4135Wisty.4135 Member ✭✭✭

    I see this when I go to my EU alt to raid at reset. 300LI groups for non-CM Cairn and other ludicrous things, all sitting at 4/10 for what seems like forever. Eventually it jumps up to 5, only to drop back down to 4. Yet I make my own Cairn, Semi-XP and within 5 minutes it's full with a relatively reasonable comp. Get the clear in a few pulls and move on with the night It always makes me chuckle too, because from personal experience, these high KP groups tend to be just as disorganized and full of struggles as any other group, despite holding out for "perfection."

    So often times, I don't think it's so much the fact of off-peak hours causing delays as it is players just not wanting to /deal/ with someone who requires the ridiculous for something mundane. But ultimately I don't see a practical way of changing this mindset, especially since "KP=experience and Exp = smooth clears" is a reasonable line of logic, if not always correct.

  • @36F0A0BB-7480-4A73-8575-EED6DF06FE19 said:
    Low population, high population, i don't care. What i do care about is getting insulted by "new" players that can't prove anything. When i post 100kp or 150 kp on lfg (which is not outrageous), i don't want that new https: killproof.me nonsense. If there is a required "old"kp amount on lfg, you spam it or you don't join, simple as that. Not our fault if anet changed the kp system. And since the new release, leechers have become a huge pain. Learn your class, do training runs and don't insult those who call you out an your lies.

    I'm sorry, I converted all of my KP into the new stuff to get the new infusion. Killproof.me is a valid website that shows how much currency someone has and can show how many times someone's successfully cleared the content. It's literally more accurate than pinging the normal KP. If you don't want to use that, enjoy your dwindling playerbase that still owns the old KP as more and more people give up their old KP or quit due to burnout.

  • @Armen.1483 said:
    Many players with low experience feel "discriminated" with the high kp demands and they feel that they can perform as good as players with high KP. It is completely wrong. I have experienced so many times people join my groups and say if they can join with the half of the kps demanded. Why would they do that ? The waiting times of low kp/no kp is 0. You can create an all welcome/all classes group for CMs and see your group fill in a second. And each time I've accepted them I have regreted. They say "trust me I am good" then die instantly and ask why there are no heals in a no healer comp. Literally today somebody asked a qfb to heal him with f2 tome "because he can", and it was qfbs fault that he died from a oneshot mechanic. In reality it was my fault that I have accepted him to our group while he didn't meet the requirements. So yes, I'd rather wait an hour or not play at all than experience these kinds of things. 150 KP is the MINIMAL that can assure you somewhat calm chill non toxic and smooth run. If you got no KP, just train and stack some red celestial infusions.

    I completely agree with this filters exist for a reason and we should not be forced to play with new people.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭

    Honestly this is probably the biggest proof that the end game systems here are broken. People have played the content so long they are no longer willing to teach new players, which in turn discourages them from participating and encourages the vets to give up too because no one is playing any more. Which is the opposite of how an mmo should be. The best solution i can come up with is anet bags leggie based achievement collections tied to any end game and severely limits the number of raids, fractals, strikes available at once, cycling through every 3-6 months. On top of this, tweak mechanics to keep the difficulty about the same but different enough to trip up vets to the point everyone will be learning at once.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    Honestly this is probably the biggest proof that the end game systems here are broken. People have played the content so long they are no longer willing to teach new players, which in turn discourages them from participating and encourages the vets to give up too because no one is playing any more. Which is the opposite of how an mmo should be. The best solution i can come up with is anet bags leggie based achievement collections tied to any end game and severely limits the number of raids, fractals, strikes available at once, cycling through every 3-6 months. On top of this, tweak mechanics to keep the difficulty about the same but different enough to trip up vets to the point everyone will be learning at once.

    Veteran players are not obligated to teach new players. It’s rather entitled to believe that. There are also many veteran players who do teach through LFG or various discords.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 13, 2020

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    Honestly this is probably the biggest proof that the end game systems here are broken. People have played the content so long they are no longer willing to teach new players, which in turn discourages them from participating and encourages the vets to give up too because no one is playing any more. Which is the opposite of how an mmo should be. The best solution i can come up with is anet bags leggie based achievement collections tied to any end game and severely limits the number of raids, fractals, strikes available at once, cycling through every 3-6 months. On top of this, tweak mechanics to keep the difficulty about the same but different enough to trip up vets to the point everyone will be learning at once.

    Veteran players are not obligated to teach new players. It’s rather entitled to believe that. There are also many veteran players who do teach through LFG or various discords.

    I'm not suggesting that. I'm saying trip everyone up so they can work together, everyone is new. It's just as entitled to play an MMO expecting to be carried all the time as experienced players by other experienced players. THE WHOLE POINT of an mmo is cooperation. The moment you're soullessly playing for rewards, you need to find a new game.

    Edit: it is both stupid and offensive to tell me that i expect to be carried. I'm the one who will solo carry noobs through gold tier rewards on the easy strikes, set up fault tolerant WoJ comps that pass on the first try. I like helping people win. I've never asked for kp either unlike other strike leaders. I don't do strikes much because i want legendaries these days, but dude, i carry people and judge people who don't.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    Honestly this is probably the biggest proof that the end game systems here are broken. People have played the content so long they are no longer willing to teach new players, which in turn discourages them from participating and encourages the vets to give up too because no one is playing any more. Which is the opposite of how an mmo should be. The best solution i can come up with is anet bags leggie based achievement collections tied to any end game and severely limits the number of raids, fractals, strikes available at once, cycling through every 3-6 months. On top of this, tweak mechanics to keep the difficulty about the same but different enough to trip up vets to the point everyone will be learning at once.

    Veteran players are not obligated to teach new players. It’s rather entitled to believe that. There are also many veteran players who do teach through LFG or various discords.

    I'm not suggesting that. I'm saying trip everyone up so they can work together, everyone is new. It's just as entitled to play an MMO expecting to be carried all the time as experienced players by other experienced players. THE WHOLE POINT of an mmo is cooperation. The moment you're soullessly playing for rewards, you need to find a new game.

    You’re pretty much suggesting that. You state that end game systems are broken because veteran players do not want to teach new players. You’re making it out as if veteran players are obligated to teach new players otherwise the end-game system is broken.

    There is also plenty of cooperation in raids. Cooperation doesn’t mean just teaching new players.

    Edit: it is both stupid and offensive to tell me that i expect to be carried. I'm the one who will solo carry noobs through gold tier rewards on the easy strikes, set up fault tolerant WoJ comps that pass on the first try. I like helping people win. I've never asked for kp either unlike other strike leaders. I don't do strikes much because i want legendaries these days, but dude, i carry people and judge people who don't.

    There’s a difference between expecting veteran players to teach you versus expecting them to carry you. I said the former.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 13, 2020

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    Honestly this is probably the biggest proof that the end game systems here are broken. People have played the content so long they are no longer willing to teach new players, which in turn discourages them from participating and encourages the vets to give up too because no one is playing any more. Which is the opposite of how an mmo should be. The best solution i can come up with is anet bags leggie based achievement collections tied to any end game and severely limits the number of raids, fractals, strikes available at once, cycling through every 3-6 months. On top of this, tweak mechanics to keep the difficulty about the same but different enough to trip up vets to the point everyone will be learning at once.

    Veteran players are not obligated to teach new players. It’s rather entitled to believe that. There are also many veteran players who do teach through LFG or various discords.

    I'm not suggesting that. I'm saying trip everyone up so they can work together, everyone is new. It's just as entitled to play an MMO expecting to be carried all the time as experienced players by other experienced players. THE WHOLE POINT of an mmo is cooperation. The moment you're soullessly playing for rewards, you need to find a new game.

    You’re pretty much suggesting that. You state that end game systems are broken because veteran players do not want to teach new players. You’re making it out as if veteran players are obligated to teach new players otherwise the end-game system is broken.

    There is also plenty of cooperation in raids. Cooperation doesn’t mean just teaching new players.

    If veteran players are not creating an environment where new players feel welcome they are essentially killing the game and/or game mode. There must be some level of help in an mmo if it's to thrive. You're right it doesn't but in a game like gw2 where all progression is permanent something needs to be done to put everyone on the same level if you want to open the door to the rest of the community participating.

    Again this is so funny for you to be saying while expecting anet to crank out more content in raids specifically.

    Other games essentially do what i stated by introducing new raids each season and making the okd gear obsolete. And players will usually even take new people in the guild around the turn of a season freely because everyone is essentially new. I never see the vets complain. What you're advocating by disagreeing with me is that you never want to learn anything new. Why do you even want new raids then?

    Edit: it is both stupid and offensive to tell me that i expect to be carried. I'm the one who will solo carry noobs through gold tier rewards on the easy strikes, set up fault tolerant WoJ comps that pass on the first try. I like helping people win. I've never asked for kp either unlike other strike leaders. I don't do strikes much because i want legendaries these days, but dude, i carry people and judge people who don't.

    There’s a difference between expecting veteran players to teach you versus expecting them to carry you. I said the former.

    If you're implying i'm not willing to learn that's also a false statement. Do you really think that the barrier is just people not willing to learn? How is the ridiculous setup in the op NOT proof that's not the issue.

    100 kp is not "i'm willing to teach " especially when there's people in LFG who have already cleared it. At least 50 times.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 13, 2020

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    Honestly this is probably the biggest proof that the end game systems here are broken. People have played the content so long they are no longer willing to teach new players, which in turn discourages them from participating and encourages the vets to give up too because no one is playing any more. Which is the opposite of how an mmo should be. The best solution i can come up with is anet bags leggie based achievement collections tied to any end game and severely limits the number of raids, fractals, strikes available at once, cycling through every 3-6 months. On top of this, tweak mechanics to keep the difficulty about the same but different enough to trip up vets to the point everyone will be learning at once.

    Veteran players are not obligated to teach new players. It’s rather entitled to believe that. There are also many veteran players who do teach through LFG or various discords.

    I'm not suggesting that. I'm saying trip everyone up so they can work together, everyone is new. It's just as entitled to play an MMO expecting to be carried all the time as experienced players by other experienced players. THE WHOLE POINT of an mmo is cooperation. The moment you're soullessly playing for rewards, you need to find a new game.

    You’re pretty much suggesting that. You state that end game systems are broken because veteran players do not want to teach new players. You’re making it out as if veteran players are obligated to teach new players otherwise the end-game system is broken.

    There is also plenty of cooperation in raids. Cooperation doesn’t mean just teaching new players.

    If veteran players are not creating an environment where new players feel welcome they are essentially killing the game and/or game mode. There must be some level of help in an mmo if it's to thrive. You're right it doesn't but in a game like gw2 where all progression is permanent something needs to be done to put everyone on the same level if you want to open the door to the rest of the community participating.

    It is incorrect to assume that veteran players are creating that environment. That positive environment just might not be as present in the LFG. Last I checked, there are tons of guilds and discords. If people want help in a MMO, then they should also start behaving like this game was a MMO. Interact with others, join guilds, make friends, etc. and not just scream:"this is a MMO, I demand you help me" on specific issues or when ever they feel like it.

    That's the main problem tbh:
    This entire solo approach and attitude many players put forth, only to then complain when suddenly they realize that they might need other players help. You can't have both and get to eat the cake too.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    Again this is so funny for you to be saying while expecting anet to crank out more content in raids specifically.

    Other games essentially do what i stated by introducing new raids each season and making the okd gear obsolete. And players will usually even take new people in the guild around the turn of a season freely because everyone is essentially new. I never see the vets complain. What you're advocating by disagreeing with me is that you never want to learn anything new. Why do you even want new raids then?

    No, other games invalidate old content allowing skill less players to have a sense of success by beating content which otherwise would be unbeatable to them at a later point. Or they introduce difficulty tiers which are barely above free loot, to make even the worst players feel accomplished.

    We have that in GW2. We have that in lower tier fractals. What we do not have is the gear deprecation and dumbing down of content to the same extent, though power creep is certainly present.

    If you want to be successful in other MMOs and take on challenging content, the approach there is exactly the same as here: join a guild, practice, improve, succeed.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    Edit: it is both stupid and offensive to tell me that i expect to be carried. I'm the one who will solo carry noobs through gold tier rewards on the easy strikes, set up fault tolerant WoJ comps that pass on the first try. I like helping people win. I've never asked for kp either unlike other strike leaders. I don't do strikes much because i want legendaries these days, but dude, i carry people and judge people who don't.

    There’s a difference between expecting veteran players to teach you versus expecting them to carry you. I said the former.

    If you're implying i'm not willing to learn that's also a false statement. Do you really think that the barrier is just people not willing to learn? How is the ridiculous setup in the op NOT proof that's not the issue.

    100 kp is not "i'm willing to teach " especially when there's people in LFG who have already cleared it. At least 50 times.

    No, the barrier is literally: my time is valuable and if I want to train and help, I will do so on my own terms and certainly not every single day on content which already takes up a significant amount of time if run daily.

    You want an actually educated opinion on this from someone who actively trains and helps players as well as runs fractal training guilds on both NA and EU? here:

    He gives a pretty good summary of what benefits and detriments there are to KP. He even openly states that he dislikes the old KP system, and then explains how we have nothing to replace it or how this entire system is there to help reduce the already long time investment.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 13, 2020

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    Honestly this is probably the biggest proof that the end game systems here are broken. People have played the content so long they are no longer willing to teach new players, which in turn discourages them from participating and encourages the vets to give up too because no one is playing any more. Which is the opposite of how an mmo should be. The best solution i can come up with is anet bags leggie based achievement collections tied to any end game and severely limits the number of raids, fractals, strikes available at once, cycling through every 3-6 months. On top of this, tweak mechanics to keep the difficulty about the same but different enough to trip up vets to the point everyone will be learning at once.

    Veteran players are not obligated to teach new players. It’s rather entitled to believe that. There are also many veteran players who do teach through LFG or various discords.

    I'm not suggesting that. I'm saying trip everyone up so they can work together, everyone is new. It's just as entitled to play an MMO expecting to be carried all the time as experienced players by other experienced players. THE WHOLE POINT of an mmo is cooperation. The moment you're soullessly playing for rewards, you need to find a new game.

    You’re pretty much suggesting that. You state that end game systems are broken because veteran players do not want to teach new players. You’re making it out as if veteran players are obligated to teach new players otherwise the end-game system is broken.

    There is also plenty of cooperation in raids. Cooperation doesn’t mean just teaching new players.

    If veteran players are not creating an environment where new players feel welcome they are essentially killing the game and/or game mode. There must be some level of help in an mmo if it's to thrive. You're right it doesn't but in a game like gw2 where all progression is permanent something needs to be done to put everyone on the same level if you want to open the door to the rest of the community participating.

    Veteran players are not required to train new players just as veteran fractal players are not required to train new fractal players just as veteran sPvP players are not required to train new sPvP players and so on. That said, many veteran players do train newer players and have set up discords for this. This isn't what is "killing" the game mode.

    Again this is so funny for you to be saying while expecting anet to crank out more content in raids specifically.

    It's a game mode that Anet still supports so it should continue to receive updates.

    Other games essentially do what i stated by introducing new raids each season and making the okd gear obsolete.

    I'm sure everyone would appreciate gear treadmills...

    And players will usually even take new people in the guild around the turn of a season freely because everyone is essentially new. I never see the vets complain. What you're advocating by disagreeing with me is that you never want to learn anything new. Why do you even want new raids then?

    That's some crazy weird logic there

    Edit: I also forgot that none of the fractals are new as they're W7 is well over a year old. There's also a big difference between trying a new raid with experienced raiders and trying them with those who have never raided before.

    Edit: it is both stupid and offensive to tell me that i expect to be carried. I'm the one who will solo carry noobs through gold tier rewards on the easy strikes, set up fault tolerant WoJ comps that pass on the first try. I like helping people win. I've never asked for kp either unlike other strike leaders. I don't do strikes much because i want legendaries these days, but dude, i carry people and judge people who don't.

    There’s a difference between expecting veteran players to teach you versus expecting them to carry you. I said the former.

    If you're implying i'm not willing to learn that's also a false statement. Do you really think that the barrier is just people not willing to learn? How is the ridiculous setup in the op NOT proof that's not the issue.

    I said "expecting them to teach you" and nothing about you not willing to learn.

    There are discord set up for players to learn. How many that want to actually take advantage of those? How many are willing to play meta builds? How many are open to critique and willing to make adjustments?

    100 kp is not "i'm willing to teach " especially when there's people in LFG who have already cleared it. At least 50 times.

    As I said before, veteran players are not obligated to train new players. Those KP runs are veteran players looking for quick and smooth clears. You do not get that if you have to train one or more players.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭

    You totally sidestepped the fact that people who did the cms already were in lfg. Those backflips are amazing.

    Vets don't have to do anything and anet doesn't have to do anything in return if the game mode dies.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 13, 2020

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    No, other games invalidate old content allowing skill less players to have a sense of success by beating content which otherwise would be unbeatable to them at a later point. Or they introduce difficulty tiers which are barely above free loot, to make even the worst players feel accomplished.

    Nox100. I agree but you're moving what i was saying a different direction. The refresh helps make getting into groups easier.

    We have that in GW2. We have that in lower tier fractals. What we do not have is the gear deprecation and dumbing down of content to the same extent, though power creep is certainly present.

    If you want to be successful in other MMOs and take on challenging content, the approach there is exactly the same as here: join a guild, practice, improve, succeed.

    What % of guilds are doing progression runs?

    As for your comment on time, if nourishing the community around raiding is too time consuming then the game mode isn't sustainable.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 14, 2020

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    You totally sidestepped the fact that people who did the cms already were in lfg. Those backflips are amazing.

    Since when were CMs part of the discussion? CMs are for experienced players, not new ones...

    Vets don't have to do anything and anet doesn't have to do anything in return if the game mode dies.

    Unless they have officially stopped supporting it then they still do.

    Your posts are kind of going all over the place with what you're saying and grasping at whatever you can. If that doesn't work then you twist things around.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 14, 2020

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    You totally sidestepped the fact that people who did the cms already were in lfg. Those backflips are amazing.

    Since when were CMs part of the discussion? CMs are for experienced players, not new ones...

    The op is about cms. It extrapolates quite well though. Should i report your posts as off topic?

    Vets don't have to do anything and anet doesn't have to do anything in return if the game mode dies.

    Unless they have officially stopped supporting it then they still do.

    Your posts are kind of going all over the place with what you're saying and grasping at whatever you can. If that doesn't work then you twist things around.

    Well still waiting for that next wing....

    You're right i'm not responding to every little thing you say, but i think it's funny that you think taking someone with 50 kp in the group isn't a smooth run.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    You totally sidestepped the fact that people who did the cms already were in lfg. Those backflips are amazing.

    Since when were CMs part of the discussion? CMs are for experienced players, not new ones...

    The op is about cms. It extrapolates quite well though. Should i report your posts as off topic?

    The CMs had nothing to do with whether veteran players are obligated to train new players. That's why it seemed odd that you suddenly brought them up.

    Vets don't have to do anything and anet doesn't have to do anything in return if the game mode dies.

    Unless they have officially stopped supporting it then they still do.

    Your posts are kind of going all over the place with what you're saying and grasping at whatever you can. If that doesn't work then you twist things around.

    Well still waiting for that next wing....

    You're right i'm not responding to every little thing you say, but i think it's funny that you think taking someone with 50 kp in the group isn't a smooth run.

    I never said that 50 kp was or wasn't a smooth run. Why are you saying that I did when it's fairly clear that I didn't say that?

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 14, 2020

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    You totally sidestepped the fact that people who did the cms already were in lfg. Those backflips are amazing.

    Since when were CMs part of the discussion? CMs are for experienced players, not new ones...

    The op is about cms. It extrapolates quite well though. Should i report your posts as off topic?

    The CMs had nothing to do with whether veteran players are obligated to train new players. That's why it seemed odd that you suddenly brought them up.

    Vets don't have to do anything and anet doesn't have to do anything in return if the game mode dies.

    Unless they have officially stopped supporting it then they still do.

    Your posts are kind of going all over the place with what you're saying and grasping at whatever you can. If that doesn't work then you twist things around.

    Well still waiting for that next wing....

    You're right i'm not responding to every little thing you say, but i think it's funny that you think taking someone with 50 kp in the group isn't a smooth run.

    I never said that 50 kp was or wasn't a smooth run. Why are you saying that I did when it's fairly clear that I didn't say that?

    You did:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:?

    100 kp is not "i'm willing to teach " especially when there's people in LFG who have already cleared it. At least 50 times.

    As I said before, veteran players are not obligated to train new players. Those KP runs are veteran players looking for quick and smooth clears. You do not get that if you have to train one or more players.

    That's your response to me talking about the op.

    So people just spontaneously do cms at some magic moment with no help from others after doing non cms. Got it.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 14, 2020

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    You totally sidestepped the fact that people who did the cms already were in lfg. Those backflips are amazing.

    Since when were CMs part of the discussion? CMs are for experienced players, not new ones...

    The op is about cms. It extrapolates quite well though. Should i report your posts as off topic?

    The CMs had nothing to do with whether veteran players are obligated to train new players. That's why it seemed odd that you suddenly brought them up.

    Vets don't have to do anything and anet doesn't have to do anything in return if the game mode dies.

    Unless they have officially stopped supporting it then they still do.

    Your posts are kind of going all over the place with what you're saying and grasping at whatever you can. If that doesn't work then you twist things around.

    Well still waiting for that next wing....

    You're right i'm not responding to every little thing you say, but i think it's funny that you think taking someone with 50 kp in the group isn't a smooth run.

    I never said that 50 kp was or wasn't a smooth run. Why are you saying that I did when it's fairly clear that I didn't say that?

    You did:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:?

    100 kp is not "i'm willing to teach " especially when there's people in LFG who have already cleared it. At least 50 times.

    As I said before, veteran players are not obligated to train new players. Those KP runs are veteran players looking for quick and smooth clears. You do not get that if you have to train one or more players.

    That's your response to me talking about the op.

    So people just spontaneously do cms at some magic moment with no help from others after doing non cms. Got it.

    This is you taking the post out of context. You can clearly see that I was responding to your post when you stated that 100 KP is not willing to teach. I then replied that those KP advertisements were for those not looking to train but instead looking to have quick and smooth clears.

    You added that statement which didn't make sense to what was being discussed, I responded to it, and now you're twisting it around. Seriously?

    Edit: Come to think about it, you probably brought up the KP thing because you were trying to equate all of the KP advertisements in the LFG as there not being anyone willing to train. This is obviously false.

    You're also ignoring that, when it comes to fractals, anybody can post a LFG looking to attempt the CM and players with similar experience can join them. You don't need veteran players to teach them.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 14, 2020

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    You totally sidestepped the fact that people who did the cms already were in lfg. Those backflips are amazing.

    Since when were CMs part of the discussion? CMs are for experienced players, not new ones...

    The op is about cms. It extrapolates quite well though. Should i report your posts as off topic?

    The CMs had nothing to do with whether veteran players are obligated to train new players. That's why it seemed odd that you suddenly brought them up.

    Vets don't have to do anything and anet doesn't have to do anything in return if the game mode dies.

    Unless they have officially stopped supporting it then they still do.

    Your posts are kind of going all over the place with what you're saying and grasping at whatever you can. If that doesn't work then you twist things around.

    Well still waiting for that next wing....

    You're right i'm not responding to every little thing you say, but i think it's funny that you think taking someone with 50 kp in the group isn't a smooth run.

    I never said that 50 kp was or wasn't a smooth run. Why are you saying that I did when it's fairly clear that I didn't say that?

    You did:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:?

    100 kp is not "i'm willing to teach " especially when there's people in LFG who have already cleared it. At least 50 times.

    As I said before, veteran players are not obligated to train new players. Those KP runs are veteran players looking for quick and smooth clears. You do not get that if you have to train one or more players.

    That's your response to me talking about the op.

    So people just spontaneously do cms at some magic moment with no help from others after doing non cms. Got it.

    This is you taking the post out of context. You can clearly see that I was responding to your post when you stated that 100 KP is not willing to teach. I then replied that those KP advertisements were for those not looking to train but instead looking to have quick and smooth clears.

    You added that statement which didn't make sense to what was being discussed, I responded to it, and now you're twisting it around. Seriously?

    Even if that's your line of thinking i was still referring to that. You're claiming people willing to teach when there's crazy kp requirements including others in the lfg, capable of clearing the content, sounds pretty far fetched in context. I don't feel the toxicity is isolated to cms. In fact it's not. I've had other experiences. And you're ignoring what i'm typing. That was your response to me referring to 2 experienced groups in lfg.

    Edit: Come to think about it, you probably brought up the KP thing because you were trying to equate all of the KP advertisements in the LFG as there not being anyone willing to train. This is obviously false.

    You're also ignoring that, when it comes to fractals, anybody can post a LFG looking to attempt the CM and players with similar experience can join them. You don't need veteran players to teach them.

    Apparently you can't get groups together at certain times of day that way, and as i game late i'm in the ops boat.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 14, 2020

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    You totally sidestepped the fact that people who did the cms already were in lfg. Those backflips are amazing.

    Since when were CMs part of the discussion? CMs are for experienced players, not new ones...

    The op is about cms. It extrapolates quite well though. Should i report your posts as off topic?

    The CMs had nothing to do with whether veteran players are obligated to train new players. That's why it seemed odd that you suddenly brought them up.

    Vets don't have to do anything and anet doesn't have to do anything in return if the game mode dies.

    Unless they have officially stopped supporting it then they still do.

    Your posts are kind of going all over the place with what you're saying and grasping at whatever you can. If that doesn't work then you twist things around.

    Well still waiting for that next wing....

    You're right i'm not responding to every little thing you say, but i think it's funny that you think taking someone with 50 kp in the group isn't a smooth run.

    I never said that 50 kp was or wasn't a smooth run. Why are you saying that I did when it's fairly clear that I didn't say that?

    You did:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:?

    100 kp is not "i'm willing to teach " especially when there's people in LFG who have already cleared it. At least 50 times.

    As I said before, veteran players are not obligated to train new players. Those KP runs are veteran players looking for quick and smooth clears. You do not get that if you have to train one or more players.

    That's your response to me talking about the op.

    So people just spontaneously do cms at some magic moment with no help from others after doing non cms. Got it.

    This is you taking the post out of context. You can clearly see that I was responding to your post when you stated that 100 KP is not willing to teach. I then replied that those KP advertisements were for those not looking to train but instead looking to have quick and smooth clears.

    You added that statement which didn't make sense to what was being discussed, I responded to it, and now you're twisting it around. Seriously?

    Even if that's your line of thinking i was still referring to that. You're claiming people willing to teach when there's crazy kp requirements including others in the lfg, capable of clearing the content, sounds pretty far fetched in context. I don't feel the toxicity is isolated to cms. In fact it's not. I've had other experiences. And you're ignoring what i'm typing. That was your response to me referring to 2 experienced groups in lfg.

    THE LFG HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH TRAINING (bolded and capped for emphasis) Those with advertisements with KP are strictly for clears. You keep conflating the the LFG with training. For raids there are discords available and even guilds. For the fractal CMs, I believe there are the same as well. You can also just grab other players to do learn the CM.

    Edit: Come to think about it, you probably brought up the KP thing because you were trying to equate all of the KP advertisements in the LFG as there not being anyone willing to train. This is obviously false.

    You're also ignoring that, when it comes to fractals, anybody can post a LFG looking to attempt the CM and players with similar experience can join them. You don't need veteran players to teach them.

    Apparently you can't get groups together at certain times of day that way, and as i game late i'm in the ops boat.

    It depends. for NA you typically have to do them during prime time as that's when the most players are on. That still has nothing to do with veterans being obligated to train new players.

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    You totally sidestepped the fact that people who did the cms already were in lfg. Those backflips are amazing.

    Since when were CMs part of the discussion? CMs are for experienced players, not new ones...

    The op is about cms. It extrapolates quite well though. Should i report your posts as off topic?

    The CMs had nothing to do with whether veteran players are obligated to train new players. That's why it seemed odd that you suddenly brought them up.

    Vets don't have to do anything and anet doesn't have to do anything in return if the game mode dies.

    Unless they have officially stopped supporting it then they still do.

    Your posts are kind of going all over the place with what you're saying and grasping at whatever you can. If that doesn't work then you twist things around.

    Well still waiting for that next wing....

    You're right i'm not responding to every little thing you say, but i think it's funny that you think taking someone with 50 kp in the group isn't a smooth run.

    I never said that 50 kp was or wasn't a smooth run. Why are you saying that I did when it's fairly clear that I didn't say that?

    You did:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:?

    100 kp is not "i'm willing to teach " especially when there's people in LFG who have already cleared it. At least 50 times.

    As I said before, veteran players are not obligated to train new players. Those KP runs are veteran players looking for quick and smooth clears. You do not get that if you have to train one or more players.

    That's your response to me talking about the op.

    So people just spontaneously do cms at some magic moment with no help from others after doing non cms. Got it.

    This is you taking the post out of context. You can clearly see that I was responding to your post when you stated that 100 KP is not willing to teach. I then replied that those KP advertisements were for those not looking to train but instead looking to have quick and smooth clears.

    You added that statement which didn't make sense to what was being discussed, I responded to it, and now you're twisting it around. Seriously?

    Even if that's your line of thinking i was still referring to that. You're claiming people willing to teach when there's crazy kp requirements including others in the lfg, capable of clearing the content, sounds pretty far fetched in context. I don't feel the toxicity is isolated to cms. In fact it's not. I've had other experiences. And you're ignoring what i'm typing. That was your response to me referring to 2 experienced groups in lfg.

    Edit: Come to think about it, you probably brought up the KP thing because you were trying to equate all of the KP advertisements in the LFG as there not being anyone willing to train. This is obviously false.

    You're also ignoring that, when it comes to fractals, anybody can post a LFG looking to attempt the CM and players with similar experience can join them. You don't need veteran players to teach them.

    Apparently you can't get groups together at certain times of day that way, and as i game late i'm in the ops boat.

    Well I got a group for old cms+t4 asking for title as kp 1 hour before reset and got them done so maybe your not trying hard enough?

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 14, 2020

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    No, other games invalidate old content allowing skill less players to have a sense of success by beating content which otherwise would be unbeatable to them at a later point. Or they introduce difficulty tiers which are barely above free loot, to make even the worst players feel accomplished.

    Nox100. I agree but you're moving what i was saying a different direction. The refresh helps make getting into groups easier.

    No, it doesn't. Players who did not properly tackle challenging content gain NOTHING with gear depreciation in other MMOs in regards to improving game skill wise. What they gain is the ability to out-gear old content and experience it.

    In that regard GW2 is actually superior. There is no required "cut-off" point one has to wait for. If you want to take on challenging content, you can start doing so at any point in time. Most often all it requires is a different approach to content in this game, often ideally paired with a more social approach and making contacts, but even that is only beneficial and not needed.

    Simply put:
    If you lacked the knowledge, experience and underlying understanding how to approach challenging content, you are/were in the exact same spot in every other MMO even after a new gear set.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    We have that in GW2. We have that in lower tier fractals. What we do not have is the gear deprecation and dumbing down of content to the same extent, though power creep is certainly present.

    If you want to be successful in other MMOs and take on challenging content, the approach there is exactly the same as here: join a guild, practice, improve, succeed.

    What % of guilds are doing progression runs?

    Irrelevant in that most players who want to get into CMs never even take that approach. They demand others take them "as is" via LFG groups. You are demanding just that in this very thread. I linked you youtube video of a fractal training guild member/leader. There obviously are discord and guilds.

    Even if not, here is what I did:
    I asked guildies in one of my more casual guilds which were already doing T4 semi regularly if they would be interested in-trying CMs. I did so AFTER actually spending a ton of time as duo with a friend in learning how to run CMs. I trained up 3 roster worth of guildies to be able to run CMs because eventually people don't have time or take a break from the game or fractals, etc.

    The point is: the key in succeeding at this content is playing with other players regularly.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    As for your comment on time, if nourishing the community around raiding is too time consuming then the game mode isn't sustainable.

    No, a game mode becomes unsustainable if the amount of players playing it drops to far or the developers decide that they have to move on due to technical reasons (dungeons were by far not underpopulated but a mess code wise) which is far more related to updates that content receives.

    Nourishing happens, just not the way you like it: between random parties all the time constantly. It happens in social groups of different degree most of the time.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    No, other games invalidate old content allowing skill less players to have a sense of success by beating content which otherwise would be unbeatable to them at a later point. Or they introduce difficulty tiers which are barely above free loot, to make even the worst players feel accomplished.

    Nox100. I agree but you're moving what i was saying a different direction. The refresh helps make getting into groups easier.

    No, it doesn't. Players who did not properly tackle challenging content gain NOTHING with gear depreciation in other MMOs in regards to improving game skill wise. What they gain is the ability to out-gear old content and experience it.

    In that regard GW2 is actually superior. There is no required "cut-off" point one has to wait for. If you want to take on challenging content, you can start doing so at any point in time. Most often all it requires is a different approach to content in this game, often ideally paired with a more social approach and making contacts, but even that is only beneficial and not needed.

    Simply put:
    If you lacked the knowledge, experience and underlying understanding how to approach challenging content, you are/were in the exact same spot in every other MMO even after a new gear set.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    We have that in GW2. We have that in lower tier fractals. What we do not have is the gear deprecation and dumbing down of content to the same extent, though power creep is certainly present.

    If you want to be successful in other MMOs and take on challenging content, the approach there is exactly the same as here: join a guild, practice, improve, succeed.

    What % of guilds are doing progression runs?

    Irrelevant in that most players who want to get into CMs never even take that approach. They demand others take them "as is" via LFG groups. You are demanding just that in this very thread. I linked you youtube video of a fractal training guild member/leader. There obviously are discord and guilds.

    Even if not, here is what I did:
    I asked guildies in one of my more casual guilds which were already doing T4 semi regularly if they would be interested in-trying CMs. I did so AFTER actually spending a ton of time as duo with a friend in learning how to run CMs. I trained up 3 roster worth of guildies to be able to run CMs because eventually people don't have time or take a break from the game or fractals, etc.

    The point is: the key in succeeding at this content is playing with other players regularly.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    As for your comment on time, if nourishing the community around raiding is too time consuming then the game mode isn't sustainable.

    No, a game mode becomes unsustainable if the amount of players playing it drops to far or the developers decide that they have to move on due to technical reasons (dungeons were by far not underpopulated but a mess code wise) which is far more related to updates that content receives.

    Nourishing happens, just not the way you like it: between random parties all the time constantly. It happens in social groups of different degree most of the time.

    I agree with you.
    It seems to me people always seem to confuse being friendly with being social.

    People don't just stroll to random people playing boardgames and ask then to teach it to them.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    No, other games invalidate old content allowing skill less players to have a sense of success by beating content which otherwise would be unbeatable to them at a later point. Or they introduce difficulty tiers which are barely above free loot, to make even the worst players feel accomplished.

    Nox100. I agree but you're moving what i was saying a different direction. The refresh helps make getting into groups easier.

    No, it doesn't. Players who did not properly tackle challenging content gain NOTHING with gear depreciation in other MMOs in regards to improving game skill wise. What they gain is the ability to out-gear old content and experience it.

    In that regard GW2 is actually superior. There is no required "cut-off" point one has to wait for. If you want to take on challenging content, you can start doing so at any point in time. Most often all it requires is a different approach to content in this game, often ideally paired with a more social approach and making contacts, but even that is only beneficial and not needed.

    Simply put:
    If you lacked the knowledge, experience and underlying understanding how to approach challenging content, you are/were in the exact same spot in every other MMO even after a new gear set.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    We have that in GW2. We have that in lower tier fractals. What we do not have is the gear deprecation and dumbing down of content to the same extent, though power creep is certainly present.

    If you want to be successful in other MMOs and take on challenging content, the approach there is exactly the same as here: join a guild, practice, improve, succeed.

    What % of guilds are doing progression runs?

    Irrelevant in that most players who want to get into CMs never even take that approach. They demand others take them "as is" via LFG groups. You are demanding just that in this very thread. I linked you youtube video of a fractal training guild member/leader. There obviously are discord and guilds.

    Even if not, here is what I did:
    I asked guildies in one of my more casual guilds which were already doing T4 semi regularly if they would be interested in-trying CMs. I did so AFTER actually spending a ton of time as duo with a friend in learning how to run CMs. I trained up 3 roster worth of guildies to be able to run CMs because eventually people don't have time or take a break from the game or fractals, etc.

    The point is: the key in succeeding at this content is playing with other players regularly.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    As for your comment on time, if nourishing the community around raiding is too time consuming then the game mode isn't sustainable.

    No, a game mode becomes unsustainable if the amount of players playing it drops to far or the developers decide that they have to move on due to technical reasons (dungeons were by far not underpopulated but a mess code wise) which is far more related to updates that content receives.

    Nourishing happens, just not the way you like it: between random parties all the time constantly. It happens in social groups of different degree most of the time.

    I agree with you.
    It seems to me people always seem to confuse being friendly with being social.

    People don't just stroll to random people playing boardgames and ask then to teach it to them.

    Actually, that is usually how people learn new board games or card games. You go somewhere and people are playing a game and they want you to play so they sit you down and teach you. I've been watching it happen for 35+ years.

    I have never once sat down and read a ruleset for monopoly or scrabble or poker or hearts, nor basketball or soccer or baseball. I learned these games because there were people around who wanted to get others involved in them, rather than push them away.

    Strangely enough, I can't help to imagen that people wanting to teach other people these games, must have something to do with why these games are undying and have stood the test of time. And as much can be said in contrast for why raids are dying Guild Wars 2, because people want to isolate instead of create community cohesion.

    It truly is an interesting difference in sociology to evaluate. The difference between how things work IRL vs. an online video game, and why.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    There’s a difference between players offering to teach you and expecting all of them to teach you.

    Board games are also very different as players are not driven for rewards compared to those doing raids/fractals. Progress for board/card games is nonexistent in the sense that you’re simply playing the game whereas progress in fractals/raids can be slowed or even halted with having new players.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    No, other games invalidate old content allowing skill less players to have a sense of success by beating content which otherwise would be unbeatable to them at a later point. Or they introduce difficulty tiers which are barely above free loot, to make even the worst players feel accomplished.

    Nox100. I agree but you're moving what i was saying a different direction. The refresh helps make getting into groups easier.

    No, it doesn't. Players who did not properly tackle challenging content gain NOTHING with gear depreciation in other MMOs in regards to improving game skill wise. What they gain is the ability to out-gear old content and experience it.

    In that regard GW2 is actually superior. There is no required "cut-off" point one has to wait for. If you want to take on challenging content, you can start doing so at any point in time. Most often all it requires is a different approach to content in this game, often ideally paired with a more social approach and making contacts, but even that is only beneficial and not needed.

    Simply put:
    If you lacked the knowledge, experience and underlying understanding how to approach challenging content, you are/were in the exact same spot in every other MMO even after a new gear set.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    We have that in GW2. We have that in lower tier fractals. What we do not have is the gear deprecation and dumbing down of content to the same extent, though power creep is certainly present.

    If you want to be successful in other MMOs and take on challenging content, the approach there is exactly the same as here: join a guild, practice, improve, succeed.

    What % of guilds are doing progression runs?

    Irrelevant in that most players who want to get into CMs never even take that approach. They demand others take them "as is" via LFG groups. You are demanding just that in this very thread. I linked you youtube video of a fractal training guild member/leader. There obviously are discord and guilds.

    Even if not, here is what I did:
    I asked guildies in one of my more casual guilds which were already doing T4 semi regularly if they would be interested in-trying CMs. I did so AFTER actually spending a ton of time as duo with a friend in learning how to run CMs. I trained up 3 roster worth of guildies to be able to run CMs because eventually people don't have time or take a break from the game or fractals, etc.

    The point is: the key in succeeding at this content is playing with other players regularly.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    As for your comment on time, if nourishing the community around raiding is too time consuming then the game mode isn't sustainable.

    No, a game mode becomes unsustainable if the amount of players playing it drops to far or the developers decide that they have to move on due to technical reasons (dungeons were by far not underpopulated but a mess code wise) which is far more related to updates that content receives.

    Nourishing happens, just not the way you like it: between random parties all the time constantly. It happens in social groups of different degree most of the time.

    I agree with you.
    It seems to me people always seem to confuse being friendly with being social.

    People don't just stroll to random people playing boardgames and ask then to teach it to them.

    Actually, that is usually how people learn new board games or card games. You go somewhere and people are playing a game and they want you to play so they sit you down and teach you. I've been watching it happen for 35+ years.

    I have never once sat down and read a ruleset for monopoly or scrabble or poker or hearts, nor basketball or soccer or baseball. I learned these games because there were people around who wanted to get others involved in them, rather than push them away.

    Strangely enough, I can't help to imagen that people wanting to teach other people these games, must have something to do with why these games are undying and have stood the test of time. And as much can be said in contrast for why raids are dying Guild Wars 2, because people want to isolate instead of create community cohesion.

    It truly is an interesting difference in sociology to evaluate. The difference between how things work IRL vs. an online video game, and why.

    That's the point though, their where people around. In my experience most of the time when people want to teach boardgames it's when friends are involved.
    Ofcourse their are cases where it's just random people. But people don't expect to be thought.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 14, 2020

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    No, other games invalidate old content allowing skill less players to have a sense of success by beating content which otherwise would be unbeatable to them at a later point. Or they introduce difficulty tiers which are barely above free loot, to make even the worst players feel accomplished.

    Nox100. I agree but you're moving what i was saying a different direction. The refresh helps make getting into groups easier.

    No, it doesn't. Players who did not properly tackle challenging content gain NOTHING with gear depreciation in other MMOs in regards to improving game skill wise. What they gain is the ability to out-gear old content and experience it.

    In that regard GW2 is actually superior. There is no required "cut-off" point one has to wait for. If you want to take on challenging content, you can start doing so at any point in time. Most often all it requires is a different approach to content in this game, often ideally paired with a more social approach and making contacts, but even that is only beneficial and not needed.

    Simply put:
    If you lacked the knowledge, experience and underlying understanding how to approach challenging content, you are/were in the exact same spot in every other MMO even after a new gear set.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    We have that in GW2. We have that in lower tier fractals. What we do not have is the gear deprecation and dumbing down of content to the same extent, though power creep is certainly present.

    If you want to be successful in other MMOs and take on challenging content, the approach there is exactly the same as here: join a guild, practice, improve, succeed.

    What % of guilds are doing progression runs?

    Irrelevant in that most players who want to get into CMs never even take that approach. They demand others take them "as is" via LFG groups. You are demanding just that in this very thread. I linked you youtube video of a fractal training guild member/leader. There obviously are discord and guilds.

    Even if not, here is what I did:
    I asked guildies in one of my more casual guilds which were already doing T4 semi regularly if they would be interested in-trying CMs. I did so AFTER actually spending a ton of time as duo with a friend in learning how to run CMs. I trained up 3 roster worth of guildies to be able to run CMs because eventually people don't have time or take a break from the game or fractals, etc.

    The point is: the key in succeeding at this content is playing with other players regularly.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    As for your comment on time, if nourishing the community around raiding is too time consuming then the game mode isn't sustainable.

    No, a game mode becomes unsustainable if the amount of players playing it drops to far or the developers decide that they have to move on due to technical reasons (dungeons were by far not underpopulated but a mess code wise) which is far more related to updates that content receives.

    Nourishing happens, just not the way you like it: between random parties all the time constantly. It happens in social groups of different degree most of the time.

    I agree with you.
    It seems to me people always seem to confuse being friendly with being social.

    People don't just stroll to random people playing boardgames and ask then to teach it to them.

    Actually, that is usually how people learn new board games or card games. You go somewhere and people are playing a game and they want you to play so they sit you down and teach you. I've been watching it happen for 35+ years.

    I have never once sat down and read a ruleset for monopoly or scrabble or poker or hearts, nor basketball or soccer or baseball. I learned these games because there were people around who wanted to get others involved in them, rather than push them away.

    Strangely enough, I can't help to imagen that people wanting to teach other people these games, must have something to do with why these games are undying and have stood the test of time. And as much can be said in contrast for why raids are dying Guild Wars 2, because people want to isolate instead of create community cohesion.

    It truly is an interesting difference in sociology to evaluate. The difference between how things work IRL vs. an online video game, and why.

    So, if I was now to make the case that every person you walk up to is unsocial because they might not be interested to teach you a board game right at that very moment in time, I'd have a strong argument?

    Yes, friends or family teach each other new board games. It's a social interaction. Or people go to comic/board game/trading card game shops and play and teach others. That's on their terms. That is akin to taking a guild member along or doing a training run.

    At no point in time does this happen though when the other party is not interested or lacking time.

    The differences between RL and online video game are not that different, IF one accounts for the fact that in RL you have spacial distance which manages interest and goals. In online games you do not since it's basically a binar state: online or offline.

    All you have to imagine is this:
    Players who are not in the mood to train others are basically not in your spacial vacinity. In real lifey, you wouldn't have met them at that point in time, aka they wouldn'thave shown up to that game night. If you want something from them, do so at the appropriate time and place, just as you would when interacting with them im real life. Easy peasy.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    No, other games invalidate old content allowing skill less players to have a sense of success by beating content which otherwise would be unbeatable to them at a later point. Or they introduce difficulty tiers which are barely above free loot, to make even the worst players feel accomplished.

    Nox100. I agree but you're moving what i was saying a different direction. The refresh helps make getting into groups easier.

    No, it doesn't. Players who did not properly tackle challenging content gain NOTHING with gear depreciation in other MMOs in regards to improving game skill wise. What they gain is the ability to out-gear old content and experience it.

    In that regard GW2 is actually superior. There is no required "cut-off" point one has to wait for. If you want to take on challenging content, you can start doing so at any point in time. Most often all it requires is a different approach to content in this game, often ideally paired with a more social approach and making contacts, but even that is only beneficial and not needed.

    Simply put:
    If you lacked the knowledge, experience and underlying understanding how to approach challenging content, you are/were in the exact same spot in every other MMO even after a new gear set.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    We have that in GW2. We have that in lower tier fractals. What we do not have is the gear deprecation and dumbing down of content to the same extent, though power creep is certainly present.

    If you want to be successful in other MMOs and take on challenging content, the approach there is exactly the same as here: join a guild, practice, improve, succeed.

    What % of guilds are doing progression runs?

    Irrelevant in that most players who want to get into CMs never even take that approach. They demand others take them "as is" via LFG groups. You are demanding just that in this very thread. I linked you youtube video of a fractal training guild member/leader. There obviously are discord and guilds.

    Even if not, here is what I did:
    I asked guildies in one of my more casual guilds which were already doing T4 semi regularly if they would be interested in-trying CMs. I did so AFTER actually spending a ton of time as duo with a friend in learning how to run CMs. I trained up 3 roster worth of guildies to be able to run CMs because eventually people don't have time or take a break from the game or fractals, etc.

    The point is: the key in succeeding at this content is playing with other players regularly.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    As for your comment on time, if nourishing the community around raiding is too time consuming then the game mode isn't sustainable.

    No, a game mode becomes unsustainable if the amount of players playing it drops to far or the developers decide that they have to move on due to technical reasons (dungeons were by far not underpopulated but a mess code wise) which is far more related to updates that content receives.

    Nourishing happens, just not the way you like it: between random parties all the time constantly. It happens in social groups of different degree most of the time.

    I agree with you.
    It seems to me people always seem to confuse being friendly with being social.

    People don't just stroll to random people playing boardgames and ask then to teach it to them.

    Actually, that is usually how people learn new board games or card games. You go somewhere and people are playing a game and they want you to play so they sit you down and teach you. I've been watching it happen for 35+ years.

    I have never once sat down and read a ruleset for monopoly or scrabble or poker or hearts, nor basketball or soccer or baseball. I learned these games because there were people around who wanted to get others involved in them, rather than push them away.

    Strangely enough, I can't help to imagen that people wanting to teach other people these games, must have something to do with why these games are undying and have stood the test of time. And as much can be said in contrast for why raids are dying Guild Wars 2, because people want to isolate instead of create community cohesion.

    It truly is an interesting difference in sociology to evaluate. The difference between how things work IRL vs. an online video game, and why.

    So, if I was now to make the case that every person you walk up to is unsocial because they might not be interested to teach you a board game right at that very moment in time, I'd have a strong argument?

    Yes, friends or family teach each other new board games. It's a social interaction. Or people go to comic/board game/trading card game shops and play and teach others. That's on their terms. That is akin to taking a guild member along or doing a training run.

    At no point in time does this happen though when the other party is not interested or lacking time.

    The differences between RL and online video game are not that different, IF one accounts for the fact that in RL you have spacial distance which manages interest and goals. In online games you do not since it's basically a binar state: online or offline.

    All you have to imagine is this:
    Players who are not in the mood to train others are basically not in your spacial vacinity. In real lifey, you wouldn't have met them at that point in time, aka they wouldn'thave shown up to that game night. If you want something from them, do so at the appropriate time and place, just as you would when interacting with them im real life. Easy peasy.

    This conversation has somehow deviated far far away from where it started.

    My OP post was never about player reluctance to take the time and effort to train someone new.

    My OP post was about experienced players discriminating against experienced players because someone has 9000 LIs and someone else only has 6000.

    A veteran wanting to get his clear done quickly on a night rather than taking hours and hours to train new players is certainly reasonable. But veterans discriminating against other veterans over some diminutive difference in skill value, could only be viewed as ridiculous at best.

    Big difference there.