Can we stop the whole "Selling 100CM DwD/DoD Title" or "Selling Raid titles/achievments" — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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Can we stop the whole "Selling 100CM DwD/DoD Title" or "Selling Raid titles/achievments"

Since the day I got into the end PvE content and the moment I opened LFG to look for PuGs I can join to consume the content, I was hit with this obnoxious amount of squads/parties of players saying that they are selling everything you ant, just for a mere 300MC.. Anyway, I am deviating.
The main reason I am writing this down, it's because with the recent fractal update, the LFG is overfilled with more pugs selling you the title instead of doing the content, and I would like to read an answer from a dev saying that "Selling titles on LFG is ok and we fully endorse this". I am lucky I never went down the rabbit hole and joined or bought myself a place in end-game content, and at this point I never will.
I have found for myself a way to deal with this, mainly by blocking the players in that party/squad and writing "LFG Seller or LFG Spammer". But, players who will join after Steam release, will stumble upon this, and will get a wrong impression about endgame, like some of my friends had in the past. And this is very good scam for others to profit upon smbd else's lack of knowledge because they are new players in this game aspect.

I hope the post won't get too hateful towards me or others who think like me, nor do I incline that players who are involved in such schemes should be banned. What I want to achieve with this post is to know if LFG Sellers are fully right when they start selling such titles/achievs to other players. ****Let's keep it a healthy discussion with good argument pro- or against this!****

****P.S.**** I have stumbles upon an argument that this whole LFG Selling thing is targeted for veteran players with tons of AP and gold, who just want to get the achievement done, but I am not buying into this, because: 1.veteran AP hunter players have a community of their own with whom they do this achiev w/o needing to spend tons of gold on 1 achiev; 2.veteran players are also on other platform outside the game where they can easier get a team of like-minded players together and go for the achiev.

Comments

  • Mini Crinny.6190Mini Crinny.6190 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Maybe if they made content that can't be soloed in under a week it might be possible

  • Ppl train. Play much. Get skilled and then use the skill they gained and get profit by it by using these skills to give ppl without this skills (usually). Its giving service by getting currency. Idk which part of it isnt allowed.
    The only problem with these achivments is that they usually come with some titles that hold skill value of the players.
    And with selling these titles to others the community will no longer accepts most of these titles as skill indicator and they lose all skill value
    Anyway selling raids/fractal achivments cost more than most ppl could even think about as most of us arent rich enough to purchase them
    These LFGs can mislead and make misunderstandings about gw2 endgame pve for new players. But who cares... very little amount of gw2 pve players ever come to learn end game
    And raids developments has been stopped so nothing will probably done with it. Doesnt matter if its ok or not.
    But well if u arent willing to learn and spend time on endgame but want the achives then just buy it after farming for ages :L

  • jpsssss.7530jpsssss.7530 Member ✭✭✭

    If you're good at something, never do it for free. If you can carry some boosted ape through raids or whatever and he pays you for the e-kitten increase then its whatever. people can tell when others got boosted if they see them play enough.

  • Armen.1483Armen.1483 Member ✭✭✭

    What is the most ridiculous is that the devs said that KP is discriminatory and people should use titles to select their teammates/check skill, while they don't care about title sellers. Now titles mean nothing to me, and we will still ask KP as the only viable tool to make the fractal lfg work.

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @GHawkR.7231 said:
    I would like to read an answer from a dev saying that "Selling titles on LFG is ok and we fully endorse this"__.

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/28073/buying-and-selling-runs/p1
    The search function is your friend.

    "We recognize that some players are not able to complete all content." Gaile Gray 01.10.19

  • You can join the parties and ask em to pay you instead :) Fight fire with fire!

  • Noah Salazar.5430Noah Salazar.5430 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 24, 2020

    I think you schold find guild for that activitis

    pugs are only for ppl that lack role in guild, so thay need someone from outside of guild to fill up a role like it is with raids

    Many ppl are not aware of it, and guild for them is only for collecting nodes from guild hall, what is wrong :/

    Ask on lion arch "lf guild that do cm, or cm trainings"

    you no need any kp or titles that way

    only ppl that have social distancing pay for that

    remowing of kp, was one of way to force ppl to group up with small communitis, insted only using lfg, and having bad experience with ppl that don't know you (as cuz of no bounds, thay not feel that much regret to remove you from party)

    At last it's how in other games work, i noticed in gw2 ppl are more of guild-less and use pug insted

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 27, 2020

    @Mini Crinny.6190 said:
    Maybe if they made content that can't be soloed in under a week it might be possible

    Like Dhuum CM? Like that helped...

    More seriously, if Anet were to do a 5-man content that can't be 4-manned, or 10-man content that can't be 8/9-manned, that content would probably be impossible to complete even for a majority of so called hardcore players.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Henry.5713Henry.5713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    They have had a neutral stance ever since people started selling dungeons. It is unlikely that we will see this change now.

    Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something. ~ Robert Heinlein

  • I'm all for people being able to sell their skills to make a profit, I have to agree with OP here, the LFG spam is obnoxious on some occasions ive seen more sell posts that actual pug groups. they should either add a seperate section for sell groups or outlaw advertisement on the LFG,

    The LFG is supposed to be a tool for finding other players to do the content with not a brochure.

    Always be rootin, always be tootin, and by golly always be shootin.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @GHawkR.7231 said:
    But, players who will join after Steam release, will stumble upon this, and will get a wrong impression about endgame

    Well if they act upon the sellers by disallowing/outlawing selling then players that join after Steam release will see an empty LFG instead. Because those players doing all the selling, can finish the content by themselves just fine, it's not like they will open "all welcome" groups and allow everyone in their groups for free. So there is a choice here, which is worse: an LFG without sellers, or an LFG with sellers, the number of non-selling groups won't change either way.

    And this is very good scam for others to profit upon smbd else's lack of knowledge because they are new players in this game aspect.

    Talking about scam, before the LFG existed, groups were selling dungeon paths. Instead of doing the selling from the LFG (if it's outlawed) they'll simply make any listing they like, and THEN ask for payment once players join. Or even worse, demand the payment on the last boss and go afk unless paid. It did happen to me in Arah back on release, some weirdos going afk at Simin, and I must say those were wonderful scam times. Then it will depend if the scammers/sellers will have the majority in the group or not.

  • Mad Queen Malafide.7512Mad Queen Malafide.7512 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 25, 2020

    Buying and selling of runs has existed since GW1's droknar runs. As long as there are players struggling with some of the content, there are people willing to capitalize on it. Perhaps a player just wants the completion, and isn't interested in actually doing the content? Perhaps a player is physically unable to complete the content, but still wants to see it completed? I can think of plenty of legitimate reasons why a player might want to bypass the struggle of doing the content themselves. If other players are willing to do that for them, in return for a compensation, then that is alright with me. I'm glad such options exist for those players.

    But be aware that when you hand players gold for services not yet provided, you have no guarantee they won't just run off with your gold. Don't expect Anet to intervene on behalf of you, your poor investments and poor judgement.

  • I came back to GW2 after a long time, with a new account so I can experience everything anew.And out of boredom I scrolled around the forum during my train ride and I noticed how often I read that "New players might be deterred by XY". Or Steam players.
    I ask myself, is this really true, or is it just something that people say lately, because they know that their arguments are not exactly ... are not exactly stable.
    I've played a few MMO's and if an MMO is good, not even real China bots could keep new players away (as long as they don't take over, but then it's usually not a well-run MMO anymore, therefore).
    But there is always talk about content and about how others play.
    I don't understand how the gameplay of others influences you as long as they don't hack?
    I know that forums are not the best place for meaningful discussions. But I had GW2 as a super cute game, with a nice community in mind and I thought how that would be reflected in the forums.

    But I have to say, what would deter me as a newbie or a returning player, are all those forum posts that express their opinion that content XY or gameplay XY might discourage new players.
    Well, well... my first and last forum post :D. Have a nice day.

  • Ahh yes in game capitalism prevails. I guess like anet, I'm neutral on the matter. Let people play the game they want, as long as it's not hacking or cheating. If some people spend money on gems and convert it to gold to pay for raids/fractals, let em be. It's their choice if they want to take the easy route /shrug.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Mad Queen Malafide.7512 said:
    Buying and selling of runs has existed since GW1's droknar runs.

    Droknar runs where imo very different though. It wasn't about invalidating endgame achievements for exorbitant prices or anything like that, but just a small fee to have alt characters ferried into "endgame" to buy max level gear etc., to skip having to do all the story on every character just to get them geared and ready/catched up with your mains.

    At least I personally see the two very differently. One gets you ready to play the (end-)game for a small fee without having to go through the early story, while the other skips the endgame and invalidates rewards (such as the prestige of Titles) associated with it for exorbitant prices.

    The former might even have been healthy for the game, the latter definitely isn't.

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    Well if they act upon the sellers by disallowing/outlawing selling then players that join after Steam release will see an empty LFG instead. Because those players doing all the selling, can finish the content by themselves just fine, it's not like they will open "all welcome" groups and allow everyone in their groups for free. So there is a choice here, which is worse: an LFG without sellers, or an LFG with sellers, the number of non-selling groups won't change either way.

    I don't think an LFG full of advertisements adds much to the game or has a positive effect on it's population image, if anything it detracts from it - even if the alternative would be an empty LFG.
    If I were to join an old game late, I'm pretty sure finding only a few groups there would be less disappointing than just a list of Ads wanting to sell me the content to dig through.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Mad Queen Malafide.7512Mad Queen Malafide.7512 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 25, 2020

    @Asum.4960 said:
    Droknar runs where imo very different though. It wasn't about invalidating endgame achievements for exorbitant prices or anything like that, but just a small fee to have alt characters ferried into "endgame" to buy max level gear etc., to skip having to do all the story on every character just to get them geared and ready/catched up with your mains.

    To some perhaps. But there were plenty of players who just wanted to skip to the end, and/or were struggling with some of the missions.

    With Fractals, some players are simply completionists. But they may not be skilled enough, or have some physical disability that prevents them from completing Fractals. I don't think those people should be denied from completing the content. And of course some players simply can't be bothered to do it themselves. Wouldn't we much rather see these people join a paid ferry, then to join other groups?

    If some players would rather have someone else do all the hard work for them, why should we care? It does not diminish my enjoyment of the game.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 25, 2020

    @Mad Queen Malafide.7512 said:
    To some perhaps. But there were plenty of players who just wanted to skip to the end, and/or were struggling with some of the missions.

    If players were struggling with the easy early missions, I doubt paying a small fee to skip them into more advanced content would do them much good, and where it differs quite a lot from buying/selling the most difficult endgame content.

    @Mad Queen Malafide.7512 said:
    With Fractals, some players are simply completionists. But they may not be skilled enough, or have some physical disability that prevents them from completing Fractals. I don't think those people should be denied from completing the content. And of course some players simply can't be bothered to do it themselves. Wouldn't we much rather see these people join a paid ferry, then to join other groups?

    If some players would rather have someone else do all the hard work for them, why should we care? It does not diminish my enjoyment of the game.

    Well, aside from other issues such as endgame content selling with it's high prices often being linked to real money trading (and, as far as I know, sellers in the past having been banned for receiving gold traced back to gold sellers), I'm fairly vary of arguments excusing harmful/game diminishing behavior on the backs of likely extremely niche cases of the "weak and frail", and how it's really a generous service to them, who want to complete everything - even if they aren't really contributing/earning it, robbing them and others of the personal accomplishment still. But even for those cases there are much healthier options to get carried through like communities and guilds actually willing to help, rather than Sellers selling it for a high price out of personal greed.
    Beyond that ofc there could be a case made for if you can't beat it, you can't earn it, which while I'm not 100% behind that idea isn't entirely unreasonable either.

    Does it affect me personally and do I care tremendously? No.
    But as I said, I do think it diminishes the game and endgame accomplishments if the LFG is full of more advertisements to sell all endgame achievements than groups actually wanting to play the content and earn and achieve things together, which is frequently the case.

    If the company then insists on it's players to use those Titles gained by beating endgame content as qualifications, removing more accurate alternative matchmaking options such as KP, it does get even more problematic though.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Talindra.4958Talindra.4958 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Easy fix for you.. in your LFG panel.. under search type -sell. And it will filter all seller out ftom your window

    Death is Energy [DIE] & Bongbong [BB] in FoW server
    Leg champ., champ. magus, champ. phantom & champ. hunter
    Envoy's Herald, EAoA, CoZ, VitV, DD, SS, The Eternal, LNHB, DoD, DwD.

  • Selling things like boss kills, titles etc. for in-game currency is a thing in just about every MMO and the most common stance that devs take with it is that they're fine with it but its at a player's own risk, devs won't re-imburse if said player is a dummy and gets themselves scammed, selling these things for real world currency is a big no-no though and the most common stance there is a big fat banhammer

    Overall I don't really see anything wrong with it, if people are good enough at one or multiple encounters then why not make a little money with it? People have been selling and buying ''services'' since GW1 anyway so its not like this is new to the franchise, as for people who buy such services who am I or anyone else to say what they should do with their in-game gold? If they want something and have the gold to pay for it, all power to them, I think its unlikely that new players will get the wrong impression of end-game considering actual forming groups outnumber the amount of sellers most of the time

    Also as a sidenote, people buying these services aren't buying a place in end-game content as you put it, they're buying a kill, a title, a skin, a chair, a whatever, they get told to smack the boss once and then lay dead on the ground for the rest of the encounter, they don't participate, they don't have a place, to get a place you still have to put in time and effort, paying gold to some good players isn't going to teach you mechanics and most non-training runs won't want to deal with someone who gets teleported 20 times in one encounter or doesn't understand something as simple as fixate

  • DirtyDan.4759DirtyDan.4759 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 30, 2020

    Why should skilled players stop selling kills and titles when many, many people are willing to pay?

  • ArchonWing.9480ArchonWing.9480 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 30, 2020

    The problem here is that there are tons of assumptions. New players being scammed for hundreds of gold they probably don't have, for end game content they may not even know about? I think there's too much bias assuming it's a scam, and of course the title is biased too.

    But the real question is why is this a problem again? I don't think some clutter is worth the time or effort to make entirely new rulesets. And really, some useless LFGs entries is a rather low priority I would thinl.

  • I just love how people selling titles and achievements are pretty much the same kind of people constantly kitten about not wanting to waste their time on carrying noobs and demanding hundreds of outdated KPs in LFG.

  • Blocki.4931Blocki.4931 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kabansky.9160 said:
    I just love how people selling titles and achievements are pretty much the same kind of people constantly kitten about not wanting to waste their time on carrying noobs and demanding hundreds of outdated KPs in LFG.

    Because they can earn money with what they are doing/like to do...
    The people they usually complain about are the ones that aren't good enough, not the ones that just want the shiny.

    I rather choose death.

  • Justine.6351Justine.6351 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Mad Queen Malafide.7512 said:
    To some perhaps. But there were plenty of players who just wanted to skip to the end, and/or were struggling with some of the missions.

    If players were struggling with the easy early missions, I doubt paying a small fee to skip them into more advanced content would do them much good, and where it differs quite a lot from buying/selling the most difficult endgame content.

    @Mad Queen Malafide.7512 said:
    With Fractals, some players are simply completionists. But they may not be skilled enough, or have some physical disability that prevents them from completing Fractals. I don't think those people should be denied from completing the content. And of course some players simply can't be bothered to do it themselves. Wouldn't we much rather see these people join a paid ferry, then to join other groups?

    If some players would rather have someone else do all the hard work for them, why should we care? It does not diminish my enjoyment of the game.

    Well, aside from other issues such as endgame content selling with it's high prices often being linked to real money trading (and, as far as I know, sellers in the past having been banned for receiving gold traced back to gold sellers), I'm fairly vary of arguments excusing harmful/game diminishing behavior on the backs of likely extremely niche cases of the "weak and frail", and how it's really a generous service to them, who want to complete everything - even if they aren't really contributing/earning it, robbing them and others of the personal accomplishment still. But even for those cases there are much healthier options to get carried through like communities and guilds actually willing to help, rather than Sellers selling it for a high price out of personal greed.
    Beyond that ofc there could be a case made for if you can't beat it, you can't earn it, which while I'm not 100% behind that idea isn't entirely unreasonable either.

    Does it affect me personally and do I care tremendously? No.
    But as I said, I do think it diminishes the game and endgame accomplishments if the LFG is full of more advertisements to sell all endgame achievements than groups actually wanting to play the content and earn and achieve things together, which is frequently the case.

    If the company then insists on it's players to use those Titles gained by beating endgame content as qualifications, removing more accurate alternative matchmaking options such as KP, it does get even more problematic though.

    Nah people were selling all kinds of runs in gw1. There are boss missions in gw1 like shiro or varesh that even I would pay a runner for if it was cheap. The last run I got was a month ago for a dungeon for tips oh and also a consulate docks>kaining>lions arch ferry for again tips.

    The difference I would say is the pricing though. Even saying that, runs for stuff has jumped a lot in gw1 except for by people who just do it to help/tips. If we look at raids in gw2 vs gw1 uw/doa/slavers exile they probably would price the same. I assume people have ran those areas for profit at some point but it's not something that I am aware of.

    Anet buff me :-(
    Make me good at game!

  • @Blocki.4931 said:
    Because they can earn money with what they are doing/like to do...
    The people they usually complain about are the ones that aren't good enough, not the ones that just want the shiny.

    So they invalidate their own requirements and end up getting those nubcakes right back in their own groups.
    That's a real 300IQ move right here.

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kabansky.9160 said:

    @Blocki.4931 said:
    Because they can earn money with what they are doing/like to do...
    The people they usually complain about are the ones that aren't good enough, not the ones that just want the shiny.

    So they invalidate their own requirements and end up getting those nubcakes right back in their own groups.
    That's a real 300IQ move right here.

    Yes but they get paid for it instead of the people expecting to get it for free.

  • Katary.7096Katary.7096 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kabansky.9160 said:
    So they invalidate their own requirements and end up getting those nubcakes right back in their own groups.
    That's a real 300IQ move right here.

    In your opinion, how many runs of Shattered Observatory CM would a person have had to buy in order to qualify for, for example, 250KP groups?

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Katary.7096 said:

    @Kabansky.9160 said:
    So they invalidate their own requirements and end up getting those nubcakes right back in their own groups.
    That's a real 300IQ move right here.

    In your opinion, how many runs of Shattered Observatory CM would a person have had to buy in order to qualify for, for example, 250KP groups?

    Currently? They can buy as much as they want, and still won't be able to qualify, as KPs are no longer available.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 4, 2020

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Currently? They can buy as much as they want, and still won't be able to qualify, as KPs are no longer available.

    in good party no one care available kp or not. Not have? - kick
    and kp it still main value for long long, because abyss weapon collection is not have title or other visible reward.

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 4, 2020

    @lare.5129 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Currently? They can buy as much as they want, and still won't be able to qualify, as KPs are no longer available.

    in good party no one care available kp or not. Not have? - kick
    and kp it still main value for long long, because abyss weapon collection is not have title or other visible reward.

    Yes, that's what i was saying. Since KP's no longer drop, it's impossible to get them by buying runs. No matter how many runs you'll buy.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 4, 2020

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Yes, that's what i was saying. Since KP's no longer drop, it's impossible to get them by buying runs. No matter how many runs you'll buy.

    yes, and this is ok. Also api key is valid for check, so nowafays most party accept killproof.me gor validation, and if acc have 5000 UFE - this is ok.
    So in THEORY, if someone buy more runs - it is matter and now.

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • Katary.7096Katary.7096 Member ✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Currently? They can buy as much as they want, and still won't be able to qualify, as KPs are no longer available.

    Did I use an incorrect past tense in the post? I honestly was not sure how to phrase that appropriately.
    But no, of course the question was not in regard to the time after the sunqua peak update, as acquiring them has since become impossible.

  • ArchonWing.9480ArchonWing.9480 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kabansky.9160 said:

    @Blocki.4931 said:
    Because they can earn money with what they are doing/like to do...
    The people they usually complain about are the ones that aren't good enough, not the ones that just want the shiny.

    So they invalidate their own requirements and end up getting those nubcakes right back in their own groups.
    That's a real 300IQ move right here.

    It doesn't really take much effort to kick someone, because it is fairly evident if you don't know what you're doing in a CM.

    But shrugs I don't mind paying people 1g for doing a jumping puzzle. I guess don't do stuff for free if you're good at it.

  • Deepcuts.9740Deepcuts.9740 Member ✭✭✭

    So many empty lfg sections: Rename one for these sellers so they can spam their "service" there.
    Just rename the Mentoring one. Haven't seen anyone in there for a loong time. When I lfg in it offering free help for new players, absolutely no one joins for hours.

  • It's an unavoidable problem. Anet decided that there's one difficulty for all and if you don't like it you can uninstall or pay RMT scammers to do it for you at your own risk. The solution is scaling difficulty for all content so the 99.9% of people who are currently excluded from end game content can again play the game in a reasonable way, but the sweaty turds who spam git gud in every discussion about the crushing difficulty spikes of GW2 are massively over-represented in feedback so that will never happen.

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Asgaeroth.6427 said:
    It's an unavoidable problem. Anet decided that there's one difficulty for all and if you don't like it you can uninstall or pay RMT scammers to do it for you at your own risk. The solution is scaling difficulty for all content so the 99.9% of people who are currently excluded from end game content can again play the game in a reasonable way, but the sweaty turds who spam git gud in every discussion about the crushing difficulty spikes of GW2 are massively over-represented in feedback so that will never happen.

    Dont we already have that?
    Go do tier 1 for the tier 1 rewards dont expect tier 4 rewards tho.

  • @Asgaeroth.6427 said:
    It's an unavoidable problem. Anet decided that there's one difficulty for all and if you don't like it you can uninstall or pay RMT scammers to do it for you at your own risk. The solution is scaling difficulty for all content so the 99.9% of people who are currently excluded from end game content can again play the game in a reasonable way, but the sweaty turds who spam git gud in every discussion about the crushing difficulty spikes of GW2 are massively over-represented in feedback so that will never happen.

    In terms of raids and strikes, yes, ANet missed out on this. In terms of Fractals? No. If you want CM and T4 rewards ,you have to play well. It's kind of just how fractals are designed. Easy gives paltry rewards, but will be done faster if you're team is good and the lower levels are lighter on the mechanics and rarely punish mistakes. Fractals get more complicated as the scales go up, adding instabilities and new mechanics while making failing old ones actually lethal. I'd say ANet needs to adopt that sort of thing for all their instanced content sooner rather than later.

  • @Sir Alymer.3406 said:

    @Asgaeroth.6427 said:
    It's an unavoidable problem. Anet decided that there's one difficulty for all and if you don't like it you can uninstall or pay RMT scammers to do it for you at your own risk. The solution is scaling difficulty for all content so the 99.9% of people who are currently excluded from end game content can again play the game in a reasonable way, but the sweaty turds who spam git gud in every discussion about the crushing difficulty spikes of GW2 are massively over-represented in feedback so that will never happen.

    In terms of raids and strikes, yes, ANet missed out on this. In terms of Fractals? No. If you want CM and T4 rewards ,you have to play well. It's kind of just how fractals are designed. Easy gives paltry rewards, but will be done faster if you're team is good and the lower levels are lighter on the mechanics and rarely punish mistakes. Fractals get more complicated as the scales go up, adding instabilities and new mechanics while making failing old ones actually lethal. I'd say ANet needs to adopt that sort of thing for all their instanced content sooner rather than later.

    Don't think Anet is ever going to consider improving it. Anet has been long term stubborn on this. They had an esports type vision for raids, they thought raids would rocket them to the top of the industry or something. The go-to play it your way MMO just needed content development to move towards catastrophically crushing nearly impossible bosses that needed the sweatiest minmaxed meta builds to clear. In reality they introduced unprecedented scale hideous elitist toxicity to the community and caused a mass exodus from the game, over five years ago. It doesn't take five years to shift strategy on balance issues. Raids could be universally beloved and very active content with one week of work by a new hire, if that. If Anet wanted it fixed it would have been a very long time ago. There's a reason they make us suffer still all these years later. I started GW2 to get away from WoW raiding. Pre-raid GW2 was the best game I ever played. When raids came out and it became very clear they were going to be exclusively mythic-like difficulty my entire love for GW2 and Anet as a company evaporated. I quit for over 4 years and came back recently, and the very first thing I read in guild chat is drama about 3 hours of wipes on VG. Seriously, how Fing long is long enough? When can people other than the top 0.1% and RMTers see this ancient raid content? It's just spiteful at this point.

  • @Asgaeroth.6427 said:

    @Sir Alymer.3406 said:

    @Asgaeroth.6427 said:
    It's an unavoidable problem. Anet decided that there's one difficulty for all and if you don't like it you can uninstall or pay RMT scammers to do it for you at your own risk. The solution is scaling difficulty for all content so the 99.9% of people who are currently excluded from end game content can again play the game in a reasonable way, but the sweaty turds who spam git gud in every discussion about the crushing difficulty spikes of GW2 are massively over-represented in feedback so that will never happen.

    In terms of raids and strikes, yes, ANet missed out on this. In terms of Fractals? No. If you want CM and T4 rewards ,you have to play well. It's kind of just how fractals are designed. Easy gives paltry rewards, but will be done faster if you're team is good and the lower levels are lighter on the mechanics and rarely punish mistakes. Fractals get more complicated as the scales go up, adding instabilities and new mechanics while making failing old ones actually lethal. I'd say ANet needs to adopt that sort of thing for all their instanced content sooner rather than later.

    Don't think Anet is ever going to consider improving it. Anet has been long term stubborn on this. They had an esports type vision for raids, they thought raids would rocket them to the top of the industry or something. The go-to play it your way MMO just needed content development to move towards catastrophically crushing nearly impossible bosses that needed the sweatiest minmaxed meta builds to clear. In reality they introduced unprecedented scale hideous elitist toxicity to the community and caused a mass exodus from the game, over five years ago. It doesn't take five years to shift strategy on balance issues. Raids could be universally beloved and very active content with one week of work by a new hire, if that.

    I disagree. It introduced an evolution of class and boss mechanics that's bolstered open world events (10 man buffs make it easier to give everyone boons). The most complicated boss from a mechanical standpoint is Dhuum with, I think, 10 total different mechanics to keep track of throughout the fight. The most difficult boss is Samarog CM or Largos CM due to their very tight enrage timers. None of these bosses require the biggest, baddest, most min/maxed builds to kill. They require focus and understanding of the mechanics of the fight to get through successfully.

    If Anet wanted it fixed it would have been a very long time ago. There's a reason they make us suffer still all these years later. I started GW2 to get away from WoW raiding. Pre-raid GW2 was the best game I ever played. When raids came out and it became very clear they were going to be exclusively mythic-like difficulty my entire love for GW2 and Anet as a company evaporated. I quit for over 4 years and came back recently, and the very first thing I read in guild chat is drama about 3 hours of wipes on VG. Seriously, how Fing long is long enough? When can people other than the top 0.1% and RMTers see this ancient raid content? It's just spiteful at this point.

    Of course, but there's also the whole spaghetti code thing. Raids are likely akin to dungeons. One person/group came in, did most of the code, left barely any notes on how any of it works, left or was fired, and with the low participation, were never looked into on how to fix and bring more interest to. Though, to say that raids are akin to mythic raids in WoW is a massive overstatement. Are they the most difficult content in GW2? Likely yes, but to compare them to something that requires the level of commitment with builds, time, and knowledge as mythic raids in WoW is way overselling their difficulty.

  • Katary.7096Katary.7096 Member ✭✭✭

    @Asgaeroth.6427 said:
    Don't think Anet is ever going to consider improving it. Anet has been long term stubborn on this. They had an esports type vision for raids, they thought raids would rocket them to the top of the industry or something.

    Citation for their desire for raids to be esport-like? After the release of Spirit Vale the raids devs said that the content performed better than what they expected, so no, none of the devs thought raids would be a golden goose.

    The go-to play it your way MMO just needed content development to move towards catastrophically crushing nearly impossible bosses that needed the sweatiest minmaxed meta builds to clear.

    Some of the raid bosses in Guild Wars 2 were cleared by players going in solo, even though the intent was for the content to be challenging for a squad of ten. Meaning there is up to 90% leeway afforded to the players.

    In reality they introduced unprecedented scale hideous elitist toxicity to the community and caused a mass exodus from the game, over five years ago.

    Overall toxicity in the community was pretty much the same prior to the introduction of raids as it was in post raid gw2.

    It doesn't take five years to shift strategy on balance issues.

    According to yourself, you were not around for over four years, so how would you of all people know that?

    Raids could be universally beloved and very active content with one week of work by a new hire, if that. If Anet wanted it fixed it would have been a very long time ago.

    You are naive to think that any part of this game could be universally beloved. There will always be at least one group of players who disagree with what the devs are doing.

    There's a reason they make us suffer still all these years later.

    So now Arenanet is in the business of torturing people? You seem to be taking this game pretty seriously.

    I started GW2 to get away from WoW raiding. Pre-raid GW2 was the best game I ever played. When raids came out and it became very clear they were going to be exclusively mythic-like difficulty my entire love for GW2 and Anet as a company evaporated.

    Has there ever been an instance of a WoW guild clearing an entire mythic raid wing on the day it was first released? Because that is what usually happens with the raid content in gw2.

    I quit for over 4 years and came back recently, and the very first thing I read in guild chat is drama about 3 hours of wipes on VG. Seriously, how Fing long is long enough? When can people other than the top 0.1% and RMTers see this ancient raid content?

    Right now. (And for the past five years, but how could you know that? You were not around.)

    It's just spiteful at this point.

    If nothing else, your post seems to be full of spite.

    I simply cannot see what people get out of the act of posting a long-winded opinion piece on a subject, on which they possess at best surface level knowledge. Does it grant some manner of personal satisfaction? Is it akin to venting?

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 16, 2020

    @Katary.7096 said:
    Some of the raid bosses in Guild Wars 2 were cleared by players going in solo, even though the intent was for the content to be challenging for a squad of ten. Meaning there is up to 90% leeway afforded to the players.

    I do agree with most of other points, but this one is a bit insincere. One of those bosses you speak of is Cairn, which is considered to be the easiest raid boss for very good reasons. The other was Slothasor - and the build that managed to do that (permainvis thief) was using something that should be considered a borderline exploit, and as a result got nerfed extremely fast soon after that.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Katary.7096Katary.7096 Member ✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    I do agree with most of other points, but this one is a bit insincere. One of those bosses you speak of is Cairn, which is considered to be the easiest raid boss for very good reasons. The other was Slothasor - and the build that managed to do that (permainvis thief) was using something that should be considered a borderline exploit, and as a result got nerfed extremely fast soon after that.

    Granted, a solo clear of Cairn is the most extreme example to bring up, but it is still entirely true. And with events like spirit run awarding LI nowadays, I guess there are "encounters" in raids that are even more simple in execution than Cairn is. But if you want to see a less exceptional statement we could take a look at the CM version of Dhuum, generally considered to be one of the more difficult raidbosses in gw2. [Rise] managed to clear that one with a squad of six players, which should still be enough to dispel the notion that raids in gw2 are designed to be almost impossible to complete.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 16, 2020

    Oh, i was never contending that there is a leeway, or that raids can't be lowmanned. I was simply pointing out that showing cases of solo clear as examples of how much actual leeway there is is significantly misleading.
    First, most boss encounters cannot be solo cleared. Second, lowmanning is somethin that even a lot of veteran raiders don't find easy to do - not on all bosses anyway.
    Third, the leeway that exists is actually a bad thing, not a good one, because it is a consequence of massive disparity that can happen even at a relatively small skill differences at the very top of the skill ladder. That Dhuum CM? It's not something most of the raiders can do even with 10 players, much less 6.
    So, again, as an example to new players, it is way misleading. Many of them will never be able to take advantage of so much leeway. Even if they'll work hard, there's a hard cap on how much you can improve your skills, different for each person, and many will simply not be able to get that high no matter how much they'll try.

    I mean, as i said, i do agree with a lot of what you said, and i even agree with the general idea of what you probably wanted to say here (i also don't think that raid bosses are crushingly impossible, nor do i think they require exactingly strict minmaxing - they are definitely not that difficult). Still, i think using that example was heavily misleading and heavily detracts from the whole argument.

    ...although i do ned to add, that the whole game system and the effectiveness disparity does create a situation where a boss that seems impossible to one group of players can be laughably easy to another. An it doesn't even need to happen at the casual-hardcore difference gap. The same situation can still appear at much higher skill tiers, between, say 10-percenters and 1-percenters.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Katary.7096Katary.7096 Member ✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Oh, i was never contending that there is a leeway, or that raids can't be lowmanned. I was simply pointing out that showing cases of solo clear as examples of how much actual leeway there is is significantly misleading.
    First, most boss encounters cannot be solo cleared. Second, lowmanning is somethin that even a lot of veteran raiders don't find easy to do - not on all bosses anyway.
    Third, the leeway that exists is actually a bad thing, not a good one, because it is a consequence of massive disparity that can happen even at a relatively small skill differences at the very top of the skill ladder. That Dhuum CM? It's not something most of the raiders can do even with 10 players, much less 6.
    So, again, as an example to new players, it is way misleading. Many of them will never be able to take advantage of so much leeway. Even if they'll work hard, there's a hard cap on how much you can improve your skills, different for each person, and many will simply not be able to get that high no matter how much they'll try.

    I mean, as i said, i do agree with a lot of what you said, and i even agree with the general idea of what you probably wanted to say here (i also don't think that raid bosses are crushingly impossible, nor do i think they require exactingly strict minmaxing - they are definitely not that difficult). Still, i think using that example was heavily misleading and heavily detracts from the whole argument.

    ...although i do ned to add, that the whole game system and the effectiveness disparity does create a situation where a boss that seems impossible to one group of players can be laughably easy to another. An it doesn't even need to happen at the casual-hardcore difference gap. The same situation can still appear at much higher skill tiers, between, say 10-percenters and 1-percenters.

    Please keep in mind that I have not made any statements in regards to new players specifically, that is a topic that you moved on to on your own. All I did was coming across the statement that gw2 raids were deliberately designed to be impossible to complete for anyone who is not a nolife ubergamer who minmaxes everything to the n-th degree. I recognized that this statement is false and provided a counter argument to prove it. Could I have done better than citing solo clears of Cairn (both the solos of Slothasor and Gorseval required exploits to pull off, so disregarding them is fair) to make the point? Very likely. I could have mentioned that Vale Guardian was beaten by a group of three players or that Qadim the Peerless has been killed by a party of five. But ultimately I still think that it was sufficient.

    Since you have broached the subject already: If we were to assume that the team from [Rise] has both reached the maximum amount of skill possible in gw2 PvE and is representative of the top 1-percent as far as skill level is concerned, how high would you set the skill requirement necessary for a squad of ten to be able to beat raid content in gw2? Should they have to play half as good as the skillcap allows? Or would 33% of the maximun performance be enough? Please be mindful of the fact that raid content values "learning by doing" and "learning through failure". Final question: What portion of the total playerbase do you want to be capable of clearing raid content?

  • If you want to make a point about non-min/maxed builds getting through raids, one need not look farther than the attempts with all green gear or the general PUG strats that go on.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 17, 2020

    @Katary.7096 said:
    Since you have broached the subject already: If we were to assume that the team from [Rise] has both reached the maximum amount of skill possible in gw2 PvE and is representative of the top 1-percent as far as skill level is concerned, how high would you set the skill requirement necessary for a squad of ten to be able to beat raid content in gw2? Should they have to play half as good as the skillcap allows? Or would 33% of the maximun performance be enough? Please be mindful of the fact that raid content values "learning by doing" and "learning through failure". Final question: What portion of the total playerbase do you want to be capable of clearing raid content?

    The real question is what absolute number of players raiding would need for Anet to decide they're worth supporting (and then go from there). I don't have those numbers, i only know that apparently they are currently significantly below that value.

    But if we're debating effectiveness, i will use a few efficiency numbers (notice, that the actual percentages are likely lower, due to efficiency being skewed towards veteran/hardcore players, but i will be doing mainly relative comparison, which should not be affected by this. I will also be using numbers from the same wing, which will minimize the impact from people leaving inbetween).
    10.427% of gw2efficiency players killed Soulless Horror at least once
    7.613% of gw2efficiency players killed Dhuum at least once
    2.093% of gw2efficiency players did Dhuum CM

    We can i think safely assume that any player that attempted Soulless Horror was not someone completely new to raids, so the percentage of people that killed it is likely already lower than the percentage of all raiders. But let's ignore that and say that this value represents the whole raiding community. If you look at the value of Dhuum CM, you will see that at most only a fifth of the whole raiding community was capable of doing it. Notice, that at least some of those that did it were probably only barely capable of doing it, without too much of a leeway.
    Now, compare that to what the [Rise] did. They were able to 6-man the content that at least 80% of the raiding community was not capable of doing even in a 10-man team. That's a 40% drop of efficiency between the very top (let's for simplicity, again, assume that [Rise] is at the very peak, and you can't go any higher), and the bottom of the top 20%. Of the raiders, not of all gw2 players.

    Consider how massive that difference can get even at the very top, and what it says about the gaps that exist even further downward.

    Looking at this, i think it's likely that setting the threshold at 50% of the maximum performance would already diminish the raiding community compared to how it is now (seeing as 60% of max performance is seemingly enough to clear the hardest of the curently available raid achievements). And i wouldn't be surprised if 33% was already enough to deal with many (if not most) of the raid bosses.
    So, i'm afraid that setting the difficulty at 33% of maximum effectiveness would be nowhere close to being enough. Although this may also mean that it might just not be possible to balance the content at the threshold that is low enough to allow for growth of the community, but still high enough to present those at the top with decent challenge.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Clyan.1593Clyan.1593 Member ✭✭✭

    I don't care about the raid selling thing, but I have to say fractals are getting littered with bad players lately. I see so many DwDs that can't even do the first phase of the CM100 boss. It's kinda annoying really.