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Firebrand is allowed to do Too Much in fractal

Jacky.7658Jacky.7658 Member ✭✭

I am mainly talking about heal firebrand.

When I first joined this game, I ask people which class should I play?

They say: you can try any profession you like, because due to build system, almost every class can heal/dps/support.

But then after reaching the end game I find it is not the case.

Heal Firebrand is the only wanted healer in fractal cms/T4. I played multiple healing spec (druid, hb, tempest). And by comparison HB is allowed to do way too much.

It can give all 12 boons except alacrity. (If you don't count condition->boon conversion)

Due to prevalence of consecutive CC from mobs, stability is very important. However, only HB here can give multiple stacks of stability, and more than one skill can do this!

Moreover, it can give a lot, a lot of aegis, which simply negates many mechanics for other players.

It is also the only spec among these healers that can give quickness. How is this fair to other healing spec?

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Comments

  • Dave.6819Dave.6819 Member ✭✭✭

    It's not fair. That's why you delete your classes and roll FB :)

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    So who's the Thief now?
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  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭

    That's why balance dont exist in PVE..... its ment to be broken and play broken...

    I never saw mobs complaining about FB being OP on the forum!

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  • And if u stack them in your party/squad you can literally skipp all of the mechs in fracs/raids... isnt that cool.

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭

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  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 24, 2020

    Firebrand is bonkers and, when considering balance, a failure of an elite specialisation.
    But it's not like Guardian Wars 2 ever had balance anyway.

  • Laila Lightness.8742Laila Lightness.8742 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 24, 2020

    Fb should lose acces to core utillity and passive effect on virtue and make books function with cd like maybe 60 secfor f1 70sec for f2, 100sec for f3 and is not affected by alarcity. This would balance it and maybe remove stability from mantras aegis is guards special boon so stab could be moved to hscourge or tempest. Especs should have acces to core skills they only habe acces to their respective skill bars this would also make core classes desired

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 25, 2020

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:
    Fb should lose acces to core utillity and passive effect on virtue and make books function with cd like maybe 60 secfor f1 70sec for f2, 100sec for f3 and is not affected by alarcity. This would balance it and maybe remove stability from mantras aegis is guards special boon so stab could be moved to hscourge or tempest

    How would that work though? Guardian is through and through designed with the passive Virtue effects in mind, especially for condition builds with Justice (linked to more Traits than I care to list), which along with support is one of the primary functions of Firebrand.

    Similarly HFB support builds run things like Battle Presence with Absolute Resolution and Purity of Body, all of which relies on the Resolve passive.

    You can't just take these things out and invalidate a sizeable chunk of Traits/core profession design, which then would all have to be reworked, essentially taking the whole (well designed) profession design apart.

    Increasing the Tome CD's by 20 seconds, or especially doubling the Justice CD, much like your suggested Virtue passive removal, just kills condition builds, while not affecting HFB drastically, aside from making the Tomes a rather forgettable since barely used and therefor unfun mechanic.
    Making specific skills not affected by Alacrity just seems very arbitrary and clunky.

    What support viability really just comes down to is Quickness/Alacrity access, especially for Fractals, as well as 10 man Target caps for Raids.

    hScourge and Tempest have neither (although Chrono + Tempest is a viable support duo for Fractals at least), which is why they are held behind as niche off-/training healer. Giving them out of theme Stability (and taking in theme stability away from Guardian) won't change their viability levels.

    Renegade is just as much a star of this Meta as FB, hScourge and Tempest just can't be combined with it and if FB didn't have Quickness access it would be in the same spot (and with no other Quickness provider we would just be back to Chrono, bc you gotta have quickness).

    Anet had a chance to change things up with the DM rework, making it a Trait line revolving around minion (and party) support, giving it some AoE Quickness for Minions and allies among other things for example, but that didn't happen.
    Similarly they could rework Sand Savant to be purely a supportive Trait, removing the Damage and Torment from Shade abilities and replacing it with Healing and Might, and maybe adding something like "Grant Alacrity to allies when you apply Barriers to them" to it.
    Tearing apart core Guardian design isn't the way to go about this though.

    The problem in dictating the support Meta is and always has been Quickness/Alacrity availability.

    Give Scourge for example Alacrity and Tempest Quickness, so they can slot into either Renegade or Firebrand of the comp, and you are mostly good to go, with Renegade + Firebrand, Tempest + Renegade, Scourge + Firebrand, Scourge + Tempest, Chrono + All all being viable 5 man content support duos then.
    Without either Quickness or Alacrity on "alternatives", it doesn't really matter how much you tear Revenant or Guardian (needlessly) apart - you got to have those boons covered anyway.
    That said, there will always be a most optimal spec/comp.

    While Firebrand is very strong, it's not in the same problematic spot that pre-nerf Chrono was in, where it just did absolutely everything (all boons, including both Quickness and Alacrity, boon rip, almost all CC needed, ad pulls, portal blink skips, etc.), with nothing ever being able to compete.
    There is currently room for alternative supports to Renegade and Firebrand, but they need either Quickness or Alacrity to slot in, which nobody else has.

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  • Altion.9576Altion.9576 Member ✭✭✭

    Before guardian there was Magi druid, they nerfed that and healers started using Healbrand, dont blame a class for how it works, the meta shifts from time to time so theres no point in complaining about one class being useful in one or two aspects of the game. So what if guardian does a lot of support? How does that hinders your gameplay?

  • crepuscular.9047crepuscular.9047 Member ✭✭✭✭

    not just Fractal, need to be mass nerfed for every game mode

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  • Henry.5713Henry.5713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Builds get nerfed, but the game and it's players won't change. Chronomancers used to be the must-have in Fractals until they got nerfed hard. Then Firebrands took over and will continue to hold this spot until they get nerfed (if people complain enough). After that something else will be the best-in-slot and the cycle continues, etc...

    Frankly, there will always be a superior build for any given task. And it most likely won't be the build "you like to play". People need to either be open to playing multiple builds and even classes or they need to stop focusing on always wanting to play the best thing avaible if they refuse to play anything but the one build they like. The game is currently a bit of a mess BUT there will never be this true balance no matter what.
    Those who told you that every class can do everything equally well and at the highest level, unless you misunderstood them, clearly had no idea what they are talking about.

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  • Infusion.7149Infusion.7149 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 25, 2020

    Having played chrono , firebrand, and renegade because a DPS slot is so easy to fill, I have to make some observations.

    1. mantra of solace is probably the real overloaded skill for firebrands : it's traited for quickness and provides aegis for the entire party (if stacked) on a low cooldown , while requiring no resource investment if you're just using it for aegis. It's already been nerfed in PVP/WVW but only in terms of the healing numbers. You can look at every firebrand build yourself and decide.
      • Is Bane Signet/Signet of Wrath broken? I doubt it.
      • Is Sword of Justice broken? It can't even hit most things that are moving. It only excels against large amounts of trash mobs due to the cleave and Virtue of Justice procs.
      • Is Mantra of Potence broken? Probably not, it just outputs might and quickness on 10-12s base ammo cooldown. If it were hurt heavily, as long as Stalwart Speed exists in its current iteration people would swap it to "Stand your Ground" for quickness on stability or "Retreat" for quickness on aegis.
      • Is "Feel my Wrath" broken? It's been nerfed and isn't all that strong on DHs now. Without boon duration you only have 6s with 30s cooldown , and 3s on others. For a party of 5 I wouldn't think this needs looking at. The cooldown on mantra of liberation is actually lower and if you run Stalwart Speed that also applies quickness to others too.
      • shield skills aren't strong offensively so running it is a damage loss (i.e. a tradeoff)
      • Battle Presence is a damage loss because you end up running virtues without Permeating Wrath , so it's a tradeoff
      • Touching sword , scepter, focus, or greatsword are all poor ideas because DH is only about power burst right now , the sustained damage isn't mindblowing
    2. firebrand mantras have 3 charges and those charges are far lower than mesmers' to the point that with Weighty Terms they're under 10s cooldowns before alacrity : they could be doubled to 20-25s cooldown in all modes and still be strong if there's 3 charges
    3. mesmers never had decent group fury or might , which is why druids were used as well as pack runes ; alacrity on mesmers now requires a hefty investment unless you run double chrono (you'd still need boon duration). People like to complain about chrono but druids were as much a part of the duo. In addition, a benchmarks with Danger Time traited aren't rooted in reality especially if it's a 5 man group.
    4. wells are utterly unreliable so renegades will remain the preferred choice for alacrity
      --- in 100cm people are asking for double condi renegade RR (Righteous Rebel) for minimal damage loss because there's 0 boon duration required yet benches ~ 34-35K
    5. if you nerf quickness output people will just stack firebrands. Stacking firebrands and/or chronos has been the response instead of a different class because there's no other classes with quickness (to the point that 10x chrono was a thing). We already see this with 100cm groups looking for condi quickbrands to stack aegis.
    6. guardian quickness output had been nerfed with the "Feel My Wrath" change, but I felt the change didn't work because the Potent Haste skill on Mantra of Potence should be lengthened and Liberator's Vow (quickness on heal skill) as well as Mantra of Solace charges could have been increased cooldowns to make more investment besides Firebrand rune required. If you are running Stalwart Speed essentially you only need 25% boon duration if running Liberator's Vow because mantra charges are so low cooldown, even more so with alacrity.
      --- what you ended up with is cQB instead of DH in all cases where a power burst isn't essential
      --- If 40-50% boon duration gets you half uptime, people would just run 2+ firebrands similar to dual chrono because aegis is that strong versus high damage potentially lethal attacks
    7. Focus and torch are decent enough offhands then running a shield means that you lose some damage. Running staff is a huge damage loss so it's a tradeoff.
    8. Arenanet should probably stop making traits that do more than 2 things on one skill , it's bad for competitive modes as well.
    9. Your argument that firebrands can stack multiple stacks of stability doesn't mean much when you likely won't have stability removed more than once in the duration. Also for places like Siren's Reef the pushes on the boat ignore stability , so do water pushes in Sunqua Peak.

    Well the way I see it quickness itself ought to be scaled back similar to how alacrity was reduced from 66% to 33% down to 25%. A reduction of health on bosses would also be inline if quickness was reduced, which would be better for groups not having quickness as well. Unlike alacrity which requires people to be using skills, quickness makes even someone auto-attacking do substantially more damage so its efficacy is higher. Quickness also substantially lowers the risk in competitive modes on skills such as meteor shower , hundred blades, arc divider, rite of the great dwarf , executioner's scythe , soul spiral, empower, signet of mercy, hunter's ward, and barrage. Lowering quickness effectiveness would also be an indirect improvement to power revenants wanting to run damage as some of the utilities and weapon skills ignore quickness.

    Having guardian as the dominant PvE profession is actually healthier for the game because there's more guardian players than other classes and the gearing is not as gated as for renegades (which is why you have "LF alac" so often). I doubt you want a replay of the "LF boon chrono" for one hour only to get a questionable quality chrono (due to the higher skill level for chrono play versus firebrand).

    If you just nerf firebrand overall then it won't solve the underlying issue. If running 3 DPS slots (yes, stanceshare soulbeast and berserker count as DPS), 1 alac and 1 full support or 4 DPS and a full boon chrono is better than running 5 DPS , people will always opt for the safer option.

    If scourge is to be more attractive as a support then there ought to be more chill/slow and PBAOE damage from bosses and the base boon duration of a condition to boon conversion could be lengthened for PVE. If you look at the Cold War Strike mission with Frigid Footfalls (10% max HP per tick + pulsing chill), scourges can basically convert all that chill to alacrity for their party while not standing in it. Nefarious Favor is on 5 cooldown in PvE after all ; Abrasive Grit trait is optional (for more might). It's a similar case for tempests and scrappers especially (condi to boon conversion is their thing). Siren's Reef is a good example of where scourge is a decent pick.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gogdarth.6741 said:
    Hot take, Guardian is actually fine and has strong builds across all gamemodes that work well with healthy variety of use cases and functions. How about instead of making this one thing that is actually good in this game worse... we make other things better instead?

    You know, like about 4 possible supports that are just not viable in PvE because they offer less? Making chrono less tedious for boonsupport, perhaps? Bringing druid back? Tempest having more stuff to offer as a support? Revenant's pony mode being a thing that isn't downright annoying to use at last? Scourge leaving meme status by having actual synergy with other specs?

    I agree, Things need to be brought up to the level.... not the level and bar be lowered for them to skate through.

  • @Jacky.7658 said:
    I am mainly talking about heal firebrand.

    When I first joined this game, I ask people which class should I play?

    They say: you can try any profession you like, because due to build system, almost every class can heal/dps/support.

    But then after reaching the end game I find it is not the case.

    Heal Firebrand is the only wanted healer in fractal cms/T4. I played multiple healing spec (druid, hb, tempest). And by comparison HB is allowed to do way too much.

    They weren't wrong, but also weren't specific enough.. Raids, fractals, dungeons, and strikes all have different group compositions depending on the goal. Fractals is even more seperated from the group because potions give extra stats so you can run different builds with more damage, healing, boon support, etc.

    It can give all 12 boons except alacrity. (If you don't count condition->boon conversion)

    Due to prevalence of consecutive CC from mobs, stability is very important. However, only HB here can give multiple stacks of stability, and more than one skill can do this!

    You don't necessarily need stability to get past every CC, you can interrupt most attacks, block, or just outright evade/dps the mob down before it can use that attack. Also, unless it's No Pain, No Gain, or some other mechanic, the renegade covers stability

    Moreover, it can give a lot, a lot of aegis, which simply negates many mechanics for other players.

    Power/Condi quickbrand can do the same, it's just tighter timing.

    It is also the only spec among these healers that can give quickness. How is this fair to other healing spec?

    Druid gives spirit buffs and spotter along with 10 man might.

    Tempest has rebound, auras, and 10 man healing and might.

    Scourge has the best aoe rez in the game.

    Healbrand gives the best damage mitigation.

    Healscrapper cleanses conditions like no one else

    Healren has the highest single skill use healing in the game while providing perma protection and alacrity with 5 man might (avg. 10 stacks)

    Mesmer and Warrior are the only two classes without much in the way of a heal spec that's effective.

  • Laila Lightness.8742Laila Lightness.8742 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 27, 2020

    A change is to make quickness a personal boon wich can only be applied once per 50seconds or simply replace the the trait quckness with swiftness wich makes more sence than quickness and tone down mantra of potence maybe drop might no skill in my opinion should give more than 1 boon. Change axe symbol to provide resistance unstead of fury and raise cd on sword symbol

  • Infusion.7149Infusion.7149 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 27, 2020

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    I agree, Things need to be brought up to the level.... not the level and bar be lowered for them to skate through.

    Eh, to make other supports on par they'd need to cut cooldowns in half basically...
    Even ammo or mesmer mantra utility skills generally are 15-25s recharge , scourges' sand shades are 8s ammo cooldown in PvE with no other effect besides might , 2s torment, and 1s burn if you run dhuumfire. With abrasive grit the shades also produce might and remove conditions, but it requires investment via traits. The barrier generation is less potent than aegis output because barrier won't negate potentially lethal damage, only offset smaller packet damage.

    Unless you are running condi variant of chrono for clones to shatter (which isn't as relevant except in 100cm where the confusion and torment condi works) you won't have another quickness output that can spit out quickness in <10s interval without weapon-swapping to the recently buffed version of greatsword (which means you're limited by weapon swap) assuming your clones don't die to random attacks and AoE. Base duration on Seize the Moment is 1.5s per clone and luckily due to recent changes the Mesmer itself counts as one clone. Mind Wrack (F1 shatter) has a 12s base cooldown. With a one clone shatter and 100% boon duration you're barely on par with a +50% quickness duration firebrand and you wouldn't have aegis output nearly as often either. You could run Deceptive Evasion rather than Superiority Complex but that's a damage loss of over 15% since it's a damage multiplier and you'd need to use dodges for clone generation which is cumbersome.


    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:
    Fb should lose acces to core utillity and passive effect on virtue and make books function with cd like maybe 60 secfor f1 70sec for f2, 100sec for f3 and is not affected by alarcity. This would balance it and maybe remove stability from mantras aegis is guards special boon so stab could be moved to hscourge or tempest. Especs should have acces to core skills they only habe acces to their respective skill bars this would also make core classes desired

    That's a terrible idea. I'd even suggest that aegis is stronger in PVE than stability is.
    Giving even more stability to heal scourge or tempest is just really shortsighted because stability application for PvE purposes can be done by renegades in dwarf legend already. All that will do is make bunker scourges (which have stability with Trail of Anguish already for both self and party) and tempests (pretty much only Rock Solid trait for party / Armor of Earth + Harmonious Conduit for self stability) even more busted to deal with in competitive modes.

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:
    A change is to make quickness a personal boon wich can only be applied once per 50seconds or simply replace the the trait quckness with swiftness wich makes more sence than quickness and tone down mantra of potence maybe drop might no skill in my opinion should give more than 1 boon. Change axe symbol to provide resistance unstead of fury and raise cd on sword symbol

    It seems you have a vendetta against firebrands, that would not help at all. If you nerf mantra of potence to non-existence then people would just stack firebrands with mantra of solace + "Feel My Wrath" to proc quickness or run chronos which generally are much less forgiving and harder to fill in groups. Make quickness semi-useless and leave mantra of solace in its current state and you'd still have people stacking firebrands for the aegis output to ignore mechanics with next to no DPS loss because heal slot isn't used for DPS.

    Likewise making axe symbols provide resistance is broken for PVP/WVW and raising cooldowns on sword symbol does nothing because people run sword on DH and core guardian as well. It doesn't solve the root issues.

    Dropping quickness effectiveness overall in all game modes would level the playing field for other support specs if the 100% duration quickness specs aren't 70% of the damage of a full DPS.
    For example if you run 5 DPS that do X damage , we can call that 5X damage. If 4 DPS + one full quickness support does 4X*1.5= > 6X damage once you include the damage from support, it's already ahead of 5 DPS. In a no heal comp for bosses with only large attacks that seldom occur , with a cQB or two it's even more broken because in actuality the cQB does maybe 70% of a full DPS.

    That's why I stated above quickness should probably be something akin to 20-25% rather than 50%. That's essentially what happened with alacrity, it was 66% recharge reduction, then 33% in a span of months, then dropped finally to 25% in 2018.

    If Firebrand is the only thing to be touched rather than quickness:

    I'd much rather mantra of solace have roughly double the charge cooldown in all modes and its healing in competitive modes returned to at least its previous levels so that it isn't as risky in PVP/WVW. That's ultimately what sets it apart from Dragonhunter besides Mantra of Potence. It would also mean if you use the 3rd charge it isn't as big a drawback. Mantra of Solace proccing both Liberator's Vow (~2.4s quickness with 20% boon duration, 3s quickness with 50% boon duration as in meta builds, 4s quickness with 100% boon duration) and Stalwart Speed (3s quickness with 50% boon duration, 4s quickness with 100% boon duration) is the main culprit , there's no need to nuke the rest of firebrand for a single aspect.
    --- if mantras only had 2 charges as on mesmers with no other skill changes instead of higher cooldown close to the mantra's unprepared cooldown then you'd continue to have the scenario where using the last charge is extremely unfavorable especially since charges don't require stopping what you're doing
    ---Stalwart Speed only affecting stability and not aegis (which you can get from shield and Retreat! also, not just mantra of solace) would mean people would carry "Stand your Ground" and Mantra of Liberation more often which is healthier for the game as well but doesn't hit mantra of solace directly. Stability from tome of courage would be a non-issue since tome of courage is not available on a low cooldown. In Sunqua Peak all boons are stripped at the start so pre-boon is not possible. Because the culprit is the cooldown on Mantra of Solace, I don't think a change to Stalwart speed is as warranted. Leaving it as is but hitting Mantra of Solace charges instead would allow people to use shield aegis and/or other sources of aegis to output quickness and shield lowers damage output so it doesn't come without tradeoffs.
    --- people could still stack firebrands regardless so this is a less ideal solution

  • cat.8975cat.8975 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 27, 2020

    They ran Druid+Chrono back then, they run HB+Alacren now. If they nerf HB, they'll end up buffing some other support and that will become the new meta. How about we skip the nerfs and just buff the currently underperforming support specs instead?

    The biggest issue with FB at the moment is the fact that you only need ~24% BD for permanent quickness. While you lose some of your damage output with the trait swaps and util changes, the damage output is still too high for something that also maintains such a strong boon on their party. In a raid scenario, cqb ends up contributing something silly like >60k squad dps.

    Regarding quickness, there are a few simple options to play around with:
    This first one is probably mandatory: Rebalance Firebrand runes. When quickness is the only boon you care about, these runes offer unparalleled stat value. 40% duration is the equivalent of 600 points of concentration, and then you have to consider the +175 condition damage on top. While it's nice that the rune set named after the specialization synergizes with it, it's just too good at the moment.

    Mix-and-match these tweaks to get whatever desired result.

    • Nerf heal and quickness mantra recharges from 12s to 15s. Has a minimal effect on other builds, but mandates a much higher boon duration number.
    • Nerf the quickness mantra base duration from 2.5s to 2s.
    • Remove the quickness from the Stalwart Speed trait (i.e. give it a different boon, or rework it into something else entirely).
      Don't do all three, as that would push the required BD number to 118%, and people would just start running whatever the most efficient combination of two quickness givers is for 100%. Role compression is actually a very good thing for casual PvE play, as you spend less time waiting around for a specific class.

    I research the game numbers and do wiki stuff sometimes. If you have any questions about how damage is calculated, feel free to ask me (easier to hit me up on reddit @ towelcat though)

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 28, 2020

    @cat.8975 said:
    They ran Druid+Chrono back then, they run HB+Alacren now. If they nerf HB, they'll end up buffing some other support and that will become the new meta. How about we skip the nerfs and just buff the currently underperforming support specs instead?

    Exactly. Luckily the Chrono days where one spec can do literally all boons, all CC, all boon strip, all ad pulls, all skips etc. in one package are over. FB is strong, and while it could take some very careful shaves, there are ways for other supports to slot into the meta, if Quickness/Alacrity was in the picture for them.

    @cat.8975 said:
    The biggest issue with FB at the moment is the fact that you only need ~24% BD for permanent quickness. While you lose some of your damage output with the trait swaps and util changes, the damage output is still too high for something that also maintains such a strong boon on their party. In a raid scenario, cqb ends up contributing something silly like >60k squad dps.

    It's kind of problematic that FB relies on multiple sources of extremely short (2 seconds) Quickness, rather than 1-2 Skills/Traits providing long duration Quickness, as that essentially means it scales very poorly with Boon Duration and also that not much of it is needed.

    As for the Squad DPS, tbf it's not alone in this with things such as Bannerslaves adding ridiculous amounts as well, maybe being even more silly as it's in the form of unique buffs which can be stacked on top of crazy boons such as Quickness.
    But really anything that provides Quickness to a group is going to net you insane group DPS increases, that's just the nature of support/hybrids and how strong boons are.
    Old 10 man Chrono basically was responsible for 50% of a whole Raid Squads DPS with it's boons, while tanking, boon stripping, CC'ing, doing skips, pulls etc.
    Druid doing 25 Might for 10 people im sure comes out to insane numbers as well, especially with things like Spotter and 10 man Frost etc., added on top.

    @cat.8975 said:
    Regarding quickness, there are a few simple options to play around with:
    This first one is probably mandatory: Rebalance Firebrand runes. When quickness is the only boon you care about, these runes offer unparalleled stat value. 40% duration is the equivalent of 600 points of concentration, and then you have to consider the +175 condition damage on top. While it's nice that the rune set named after the specialization synergizes with it, it's just too good at the moment.

    Mix-and-match these tweaks to get whatever desired result.

    • Nerf heal and quickness mantra recharges from 12s to 15s. Has a minimal effect on other builds, but mandates a much higher boon duration number.
    • Nerf the quickness mantra base duration from 2.5s to 2s.
    • Remove the quickness from the Stalwart Speed trait (i.e. give it a different boon, or rework it into something else entirely).
      Don't do all three, as that would push the required BD number to 118%, and people would just start running whatever the most efficient combination of two quickness givers is for 100%. Role compression is actually a very good thing for casual PvE play, as you spend less time waiting around for a specific class.

    It's not that I necessarily disagree with any of that, I'm just not sure what any of those nerfs would actually do.
    Sure, FB may have to swap to Diviner Power Quickbrand or run some Plaguedoctor or w/e pieces on Condi with some other Runes for the BD and you would have reduced it's personal damage contribution by a bit, but it's still going to be Quickbrand + Chrono + Renegade regardless, just worse - because you got to have Quickness.

    Unless Anet opens up the avenues for other professions to spec into giving those boons, no chopping into the very few professions that do currently have them is going to change anything viability wise.
    It's just going to make FB unenjoyable and clunky with different Mantra recharge timings or force them to run more BD at a minor personal DPS loss, or even worse, cause people to just stack 2-4 of them, forgoing the low value BD on 2 sec Quickness giving skills altogether as lower base boon duration makes Concentration less and less valuable, encouraging to forgo it altogether in favour of multiplying the source.

    Now that uber Chrono, blocking viability of everything else by doing literally everything and better, doesn't exist anymore, we imo just need more variety in Specs/supports that are able to provide these vital and incredibly powerful boons.
    If there then still is no competition with things being at least functionality wise on an even playing field, then things can be looked at further with minor adjustments.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Can't help that healing is is not that powerfull after the instabilites rework, compared to other healers FB is mediocre at best, with the exception of the very potent burst you get on F2, but pure raw healing it's not that great.
    But Fractals nowadays are all about dying in one or two hit by the most basic mob, let's say you are a Berserker Ele, playing any fractal, and today instabilitires are Outflanked and Frailty, you take any other healer that's not a Firebrand or a Barrier Necro (maybe Scrapper), and you will be on the ground 9 out of 10 times, you have 8k HP, most mobs will hit for 10k from behind, you can't heal or regen that lol.

  • @Brandon Uzumaki.1524 said:
    Can't help that healing is is not that powerfull after the instabilites rework, compared to other healers FB is mediocre at best, with the exception of the very potent burst you get on F2, but pure raw healing it's not that great.
    But Fractals nowadays are all about dying in one or two hit by the most basic mob, let's say you are a Berserker Ele, playing any fractal, and today instabilitires are Outflanked and Frailty, you take any other healer that's not a Firebrand or a Barrier Necro (maybe Scrapper), and you will be on the ground 9 out of 10 times, you have 8k HP, most mobs will hit for 10k from behind, you can't heal or regen that lol.

    Then dont wear berserker use maurader or soldier gear

  • Hannelore.8153Hannelore.8153 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 29, 2020

    Lets take a look:
    Heavy DPS? Check.
    Heavy self healing? Check.
    Heavy group healing? Check.
    Heavy cleansing? Check.
    Heavy boon output? Check.
    Heavy group Stability? Check.
    Heavy reflects? Check.
    Heavy tanking ability? Check.

    Having a Firebrand in your party is a massive DPS increase entire group, Not just because of the DPS they can bring, but because of how much protection it offers other players, sometimes to the extent of ignoring mechanics entirely.

    Chronomancer and Druid could never do this. They didn't even come close.

    That said, I've always believed Firebrand is what other classes are meant to be, and should aspire to.

    Hannah | Daisuki[SUKI] Founder, Ehmry Bay, NA | 22 charas, 16k hours, 27k AP | ♀♥♀
    Mains Mariyuuna/Tempest & Alisha Kei/Druid(PvE), Terakura/Spellbreaker & Kitty Koume/Reaper(WvW)
    No need to be best, only good and kind.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    Lets take a look:
    Heavy DPS? Check.
    Heavy self healing? Check.
    Heavy group healing? Check.
    Heavy cleansing? Check.
    Heavy boon output? Check.
    Heavy group Stability? Check.
    Heavy reflects? Check.
    Heavy tanking ability? Check.

    Having a Firebrand in your party is a massive DPS increase entire group, Not just because of the DPS they can bring, but because of how much protection it offers other players, sometimes to the extent of ignoring mechanics entirely.

    Chronomancer and Druid could never do this. They didn't even come close.

    That said, I've always believed Firebrand is what other classes are meant to be, and should aspire to.

    Well, as a note here, yes, Guardian can do all of those things, but not at the same time - which as you say is ideal design and what Anet should aspire to for all professions.

    Quickbrand for example sure offers decent DPS and a massive group DPS increase with Quickness, which is just the nature of anything that can apply that incredibly powerful boon, but it's also extremely vulnerable at 11k HP and only a little 1k Heal Skill as self-heal, relying on blocking everything with the short duration Aegis, making Berserker Ele feel like a tank in comparison.

    Support FB, while ofc having great support and being able to spec into one or two of decent cleansing, heavy healing, heavy stability or reflects with it's utility choices, can't do all of those at once (outside of long CD short bursts of it with Tomes, while still providing 100% Quickness, for which it is taken in the first place) while also doing essentially no damage at all - generally between 2-5k.

    Also while Aegis is an incredibly powerful boon as well which FB can pump out quite frequently to carry through most non-vital mechanics, let's remember Distortion Share (5 man Invulnerability) on Chrono was a thing, which could protect an entire party/subgroup from even unblockable oneshot failstate mechanics.

    Just when we combine Firebrand + Renegade we get somewhere close to what old Chrono was just alone in terms of boon support, boon rip capability, CC, mechanic skips, etc., while still falling short in terms of things like ad pull, (portal) skipping capability etc.
    So especially just FB is not the godmode old Chrono was by a long shot.

    It's just the best Quickness source right now which slots in well with the also incredibly strong Renegade and it's Alacrity, CC, perma Prot, boon rip/stability, etc.
    With only one profession that can do group Quickness, one profession that can do group Alacrity, and one profession that can do both in the game (and one profession able to do 10 man Might), it's not surprising those professions are the meta across 5 and 10 man content.

    Unlike old Chrono though, non of them are sole and uncompetable gods in everything though, and I'm fairly sure that if for example Scourge had alacrity it could quite nicely swap in for Renegade in the Alacrity, boon strip and CC slot, and if Tempest had Quickness it could swap well into the Boon Support and heal slot of Firebrand.

    While I'am going to admit to my bias here as someone who really enjoys and mains Firebrand, I do not think Firebrand + Renegade, while both really strong, are at the old Chrono level where nothing could ever compete with them unless they are nerfed first (but not saying they may not need shaves after anyway). Without addressing the Quickness/Alacrity situation as two boons which are so powerful that you will always want to have 100% group wide uptime of them while only 3 specs are able to provide one or two of them though, ofc nothing ever will compete unless access to them is spread around more.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • LucianDK.8615LucianDK.8615 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Scourges used to be OP with damage and support. Both got nerfed info oblivion.

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Brandon Uzumaki.1524 said:
    Can't help that healing is is not that powerfull after the instabilites rework, compared to other healers FB is mediocre at best, with the exception of the very potent burst you get on F2, but pure raw healing it's not that great.
    But Fractals nowadays are all about dying in one or two hit by the most basic mob, let's say you are a Berserker Ele, playing any fractal, and today instabilitires are Outflanked and Frailty, you take any other healer that's not a Firebrand or a Barrier Necro (maybe Scrapper), and you will be on the ground 9 out of 10 times, you have 8k HP, most mobs will hit for 10k from behind, you can't heal or regen that lol.

    What do you mean with nowadays? Almost everything used to oneshot in old 50s. Mossman could even oneshot a warr out of stealth. Weavers play without a healer all the time. Facetanking was just never good.

  • Hannelore.8153Hannelore.8153 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 29, 2020

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    Lets take a look:
    Heavy DPS? Check.
    Heavy self healing? Check.
    Heavy group healing? Check.
    Heavy cleansing? Check.
    Heavy boon output? Check.
    Heavy group Stability? Check.
    Heavy reflects? Check.
    Heavy tanking ability? Check.

    Having a Firebrand in your party is a massive DPS increase entire group, Not just because of the DPS they can bring, but because of how much protection it offers other players, sometimes to the extent of ignoring mechanics entirely.

    Chronomancer and Druid could never do this. They didn't even come close.

    That said, I've always believed Firebrand is what other classes are meant to be, and should aspire to.

    Well, as a note here, yes, Guardian can do all of those things, but not at the same time - which as you say is ideal design and what Anet should aspire to for all professions.

    Quickbrand for example sure offers decent DPS and a massive group DPS increase with Quickness, which is just the nature of anything that can apply that incredibly powerful boon, but it's also extremely vulnerable at 11k HP and only a little 1k Heal Skill as self-heal, relying on blocking everything with the short duration Aegis, making Berserker Ele feel like a tank in comparison.

    Support FB, while ofc having great support and being able to spec into one or two of decent cleansing, heavy healing, heavy stability or reflects with it's utility choices, can't do all of those at once (outside of long CD short bursts of it with Tomes, while still providing 100% Quickness, for which it is taken in the first place) while also doing essentially no damage at all - generally between 2-5k.

    Also while Aegis is an incredibly powerful boon as well which FB can pump out quite frequently to carry through most non-vital mechanics, let's remember Distortion Share (5 man Invulnerability) on Chrono was a thing, which could protect an entire party/subgroup from even unblockable oneshot failstate mechanics.

    Just when we combine Firebrand + Renegade we get somewhere close to what old Chrono was just alone in terms of boon support, boon rip capability, CC, mechanic skips, etc., while still falling short in terms of things like ad pull, (portal) skipping capability etc.
    So especially just FB is not the godmode old Chrono was by a long shot.

    It's just the best Quickness source right now which slots in well with the also incredibly strong Renegade and it's Alacrity, CC, perma Prot, boon rip/stability, etc.
    With only one profession that can do group Quickness, one profession that can do group Alacrity, and one profession that can do both in the game (and one profession able to do 10 man Might), it's not surprising those professions are the meta across 5 and 10 man content.

    Unlike old Chrono though, non of them are sole and uncompetable gods in everything though, and I'm fairly sure that if for example Scourge had alacrity it could quite nicely swap in for Renegade in the Alacrity, boon strip and CC slot, and if Tempest had Quickness it could swap well into the Boon Support and heal slot of Firebrand.

    While I'am going to admit to my bias here as someone who really enjoys and mains Firebrand, I do not think Firebrand + Renegade, while both really strong, are at the old Chrono level where nothing could ever compete with them unless they are nerfed first (but not saying they may not need shaves after anyway). Without addressing the Quickness/Alacrity situation as two boons which are so powerful that you will always want to have 100% group wide uptime of them while only 3 specs are able to provide one or two of them though, ofc nothing ever will compete unless access to them is spread around more.

    You're misunderstanding my point entirely.

    On most classes the build you take hard limits what you can do, this isn't the case on Firebrand because of the Tomes. No matter what you take as your traits, your weapon, and your utility skills, the Tomes will always provide alot of what I listed in my earlier post, regardless of the other workings of the build; that's why the class is impossible to balance through nerfing.

    For example, Firebrand always has an on-demand reflect no matter what utility skills they set. Even Core Guardian has to sacrifice a utility skill slot for Wall of Reflection in order to handle the projectile mechanics of an encounter.

    My point was that other class mechanics should work similarly, that we should balance by buffing them instead.

    Hannah | Daisuki[SUKI] Founder, Ehmry Bay, NA | 22 charas, 16k hours, 27k AP | ♀♥♀
    Mains Mariyuuna/Tempest & Alisha Kei/Druid(PvE), Terakura/Spellbreaker & Kitty Koume/Reaper(WvW)
    No need to be best, only good and kind.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 29, 2020

    @Hannelore.8153 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    Lets take a look:
    Heavy DPS? Check.
    Heavy self healing? Check.
    Heavy group healing? Check.
    Heavy cleansing? Check.
    Heavy boon output? Check.
    Heavy group Stability? Check.
    Heavy reflects? Check.
    Heavy tanking ability? Check.

    Having a Firebrand in your party is a massive DPS increase entire group, Not just because of the DPS they can bring, but because of how much protection it offers other players, sometimes to the extent of ignoring mechanics entirely.

    Chronomancer and Druid could never do this. They didn't even come close.

    That said, I've always believed Firebrand is what other classes are meant to be, and should aspire to.

    Well, as a note here, yes, Guardian can do all of those things, but not at the same time - which as you say is ideal design and what Anet should aspire to for all professions.

    Quickbrand for example sure offers decent DPS and a massive group DPS increase with Quickness, which is just the nature of anything that can apply that incredibly powerful boon, but it's also extremely vulnerable at 11k HP and only a little 1k Heal Skill as self-heal, relying on blocking everything with the short duration Aegis, making Berserker Ele feel like a tank in comparison.

    Support FB, while ofc having great support and being able to spec into one or two of decent cleansing, heavy healing, heavy stability or reflects with it's utility choices, can't do all of those at once (outside of long CD short bursts of it with Tomes, while still providing 100% Quickness, for which it is taken in the first place) while also doing essentially no damage at all - generally between 2-5k.

    Also while Aegis is an incredibly powerful boon as well which FB can pump out quite frequently to carry through most non-vital mechanics, let's remember Distortion Share (5 man Invulnerability) on Chrono was a thing, which could protect an entire party/subgroup from even unblockable oneshot failstate mechanics.

    Just when we combine Firebrand + Renegade we get somewhere close to what old Chrono was just alone in terms of boon support, boon rip capability, CC, mechanic skips, etc., while still falling short in terms of things like ad pull, (portal) skipping capability etc.
    So especially just FB is not the godmode old Chrono was by a long shot.

    It's just the best Quickness source right now which slots in well with the also incredibly strong Renegade and it's Alacrity, CC, perma Prot, boon rip/stability, etc.
    With only one profession that can do group Quickness, one profession that can do group Alacrity, and one profession that can do both in the game (and one profession able to do 10 man Might), it's not surprising those professions are the meta across 5 and 10 man content.

    Unlike old Chrono though, non of them are sole and uncompetable gods in everything though, and I'm fairly sure that if for example Scourge had alacrity it could quite nicely swap in for Renegade in the Alacrity, boon strip and CC slot, and if Tempest had Quickness it could swap well into the Boon Support and heal slot of Firebrand.

    While I'am going to admit to my bias here as someone who really enjoys and mains Firebrand, I do not think Firebrand + Renegade, while both really strong, are at the old Chrono level where nothing could ever compete with them unless they are nerfed first (but not saying they may not need shaves after anyway). Without addressing the Quickness/Alacrity situation as two boons which are so powerful that you will always want to have 100% group wide uptime of them while only 3 specs are able to provide one or two of them though, ofc nothing ever will compete unless access to them is spread around more.

    You're misunderstanding my point entirely.

    On most classes the build you take hard limits what you can do, this isn't the case on Firebrand because of the Tomes. No matter what you take as your traits, your weapon, and your utility skills, the Tomes will always provide alot of what I listed in my earlier post, regardless of the other workings of the build; that's why the class is impossible to balance through nerfing.

    For example, Firebrand always has an on-demand reflect no matter what utility skills they set. Even Core Guardian has to sacrifice a utility skill slot for Wall of Reflection in order to handle the projectile mechanics of an encounter.

    My point was that other class mechanics should work similarly, that we should balance by buffing them instead.

    If you really need Reflects in some content, a 75 second CD Tome isn't going to cut it usually though and you will still have to take WoR (24-30 sec CD with more than double the duration) on top of that anyway.
    Don't get me wrong, the Tomes are nice to have, but they are imo pretty far from OP or impossible to balance.

    Generally as QB you never use Tome of Resolve and Courage other than in downtime, because the cast times etc. are simply not worth the DPS downtime.
    Take bosses like Artsariiv for example in which you want high/perma reflect uptime. You don't just want to sit in your Tome and do nothing else (DPS as QFB, healing and boons on HFB), so you end up taking WoR anyway.
    It's not like, especially a non-support FB like Quickbrand, can just carry all cleanses and reflects just with the high CD tomes without trade off.

    They are nice for short bursts of support in downtimes (Cleanses, Stab, Reflects), but then that's kind of it. You maybe get to go into Tomes 1 or 2 times per fight, especially in Fractals - at the cost of your DPS/Weapon skills.

    I wouldn't call some Stab or Reflect on a 75 sec CD as "heavy" supply, as you did. For that you still need to spec into that with Utilities and such. Similarly Resolve isn't really heavy healing, unless specced for support, but rather just a nice group condi cleanse on a 50 sec CD (with a fairly lengthy almost 2s cast time+aftercast of going into Tome + Oasis).

    Personally, if I could pick, at least on Quickbrand I would swap out Tome of Courage and Resolve instantly for DH's instant cast Wings of Resolve and Shield of Courage in most scenarios.
    Tomes are nice for supplementing what HFB already does though, but honestly it would be fine without them as well.

    They used to be really strong at PoF launch, but with the heavy nerfs to them since, I wouldn't consider them a major or even broken feature, with them actually being imo weaker than at least DH's Virtues on anything but full support FB.
    The CD's are just too long to solely rely on them for any job, and you do kind of need to quickly spam them out not fully utilising them or just dip in for a few uses anyway in most cases, as they otherwise lock you out of your weapon skills for too long for boon uptime on HFB or DPS uptime for QFB.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Some time ago I played support-scrapper in deepstone T4. with blast- and bullwark- gyro, shield I had provided some might, protection, regen and stability plus dmg-mitigation and projectile protection... I think I took experimental turrets+rifle to provide fury as well. Medkit and mortar-5 was enough heal and provided some vigor.

    It worked out pretty well, but it still felt like going a roundabout way to do 70% of what a heal-brand should do plus missing the quickness.

  • @Hannelore.8153 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    Lets take a look:
    Heavy DPS? Check.
    Heavy self healing? Check.
    Heavy group healing? Check.
    Heavy cleansing? Check.
    Heavy boon output? Check.
    Heavy group Stability? Check.
    Heavy reflects? Check.
    Heavy tanking ability? Check.

    Having a Firebrand in your party is a massive DPS increase entire group, Not just because of the DPS they can bring, but because of how much protection it offers other players, sometimes to the extent of ignoring mechanics entirely.

    Chronomancer and Druid could never do this. They didn't even come close.

    That said, I've always believed Firebrand is what other classes are meant to be, and should aspire to.

    Well, as a note here, yes, Guardian can do all of those things, but not at the same time - which as you say is ideal design and what Anet should aspire to for all professions.

    Quickbrand for example sure offers decent DPS and a massive group DPS increase with Quickness, which is just the nature of anything that can apply that incredibly powerful boon, but it's also extremely vulnerable at 11k HP and only a little 1k Heal Skill as self-heal, relying on blocking everything with the short duration Aegis, making Berserker Ele feel like a tank in comparison.

    Support FB, while ofc having great support and being able to spec into one or two of decent cleansing, heavy healing, heavy stability or reflects with it's utility choices, can't do all of those at once (outside of long CD short bursts of it with Tomes, while still providing 100% Quickness, for which it is taken in the first place) while also doing essentially no damage at all - generally between 2-5k.

    Also while Aegis is an incredibly powerful boon as well which FB can pump out quite frequently to carry through most non-vital mechanics, let's remember Distortion Share (5 man Invulnerability) on Chrono was a thing, which could protect an entire party/subgroup from even unblockable oneshot failstate mechanics.

    Just when we combine Firebrand + Renegade we get somewhere close to what old Chrono was just alone in terms of boon support, boon rip capability, CC, mechanic skips, etc., while still falling short in terms of things like ad pull, (portal) skipping capability etc.
    So especially just FB is not the godmode old Chrono was by a long shot.

    It's just the best Quickness source right now which slots in well with the also incredibly strong Renegade and it's Alacrity, CC, perma Prot, boon rip/stability, etc.
    With only one profession that can do group Quickness, one profession that can do group Alacrity, and one profession that can do both in the game (and one profession able to do 10 man Might), it's not surprising those professions are the meta across 5 and 10 man content.

    Unlike old Chrono though, non of them are sole and uncompetable gods in everything though, and I'm fairly sure that if for example Scourge had alacrity it could quite nicely swap in for Renegade in the Alacrity, boon strip and CC slot, and if Tempest had Quickness it could swap well into the Boon Support and heal slot of Firebrand.

    While I'am going to admit to my bias here as someone who really enjoys and mains Firebrand, I do not think Firebrand + Renegade, while both really strong, are at the old Chrono level where nothing could ever compete with them unless they are nerfed first (but not saying they may not need shaves after anyway). Without addressing the Quickness/Alacrity situation as two boons which are so powerful that you will always want to have 100% group wide uptime of them while only 3 specs are able to provide one or two of them though, ofc nothing ever will compete unless access to them is spread around more.

    You're misunderstanding my point entirely.

    On most classes the build you take hard limits what you can do, this isn't the case on Firebrand because of the Tomes. No matter what you take as your traits, your weapon, and your utility skills, the Tomes will always provide alot of what I listed in my earlier post, regardless of the other workings of the build; that's why the class is impossible to balance through nerfing.

    For example, Firebrand always has an on-demand reflect no matter what utility skills they set. Even Core Guardian has to sacrifice a utility skill slot for Wall of Reflection in order to handle the projectile mechanics of an encounter.

    My point was that other class mechanics should work similarly, that we should balance by buffing them instead.

    You mean that super short reflect wich you cast at cost of one very usefull stab output

  • WindBlade.8749WindBlade.8749 Member ✭✭
    edited September 30, 2020

    Funny thing, hfb is not even meta on cm fractal, it's the heal renega with a quickbrand that is meta. and if you want to be ever more meta, you go with prenegat and no heal.
    HFB is just pug "meta" because it's can be more forgivin for failed mechanics oposed to heal ren

    Not sure how i feal now with the new cfb that is meta on 100 and guardian being everywhere in endgame (including wvw and raids) but he, i guess main gardian are happy. I have one endgame content where my ele is meta (old cms) and i'm happy that i can play it in one part of the endgame even if it's not everywhere.

  • @Nephalem.8921 said:

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:
    A change is to make quickness a personal boon wich can only be applied once per 50seconds or simply replace the the trait quckness with swiftness wich makes more sence than quickness and tone down mantra of potence maybe drop might no skill in my opinion should give more than 1 boon. Change axe symbol to provide resistance unstead of fury and raise cd on sword symbol

    Im glad you are not part of the balance team. Cd increase on sword symbol would just make it worse than scepter. Resistance on axe would be the most broken thing. Removing quickness would just completely remove it from the group and we would be back to mesmer only comps.

    I agree that these changes are not the whole solution, but making Quickness more of a selfish boon instead of being dependant on 1 supplier (and only a few professions who are actually capable to do so), is not balanced imo.
    Let me explain, cause obviously there's more to it. First of all, in the PvE endgame the boons Quickness and Alacrity are not just on a different level than the others, but in a complete different galaxy, pretty much. They're incredibly in demand, in combination with very limited supply (only a few classes that reliably can provide), you can rightfully call them the elite boons of PvE. They're a musthave.
    Imo there's 2 options:

    • Either you make them widely available to every profession, much like Might and Fury, which are also very strong boons and in high demand (much like Quickness and Alacrity), but are generally not a big issue anymore when it comes to supply, because of the wide availability (I do say generally, there are some classes that could have a bit better access to mostly one of those boons).
    • Or you (significantly) nerf Quickness and Alacrity in a way that the demand is not going to be that high anymore. Supply can then stay the same or made even more exclusive like you mostly have with Alacrity (very exclusive supply). This way you do promote class uniqueness, or at least the feeling of it (in the end, Quickness and Alacrity are mostly used for 1 thing only: boost DPS).
    • Or you do a bit of a combination of both or better yet even think out of the box: I.e. You make the boons more available between all classes but also more selfishly, except for maybe a few very short duration share skills/traits, but far from enough to maintain 100% uptime on 10 people! I.e. if you and your build needs/wants/demands it you have to bring it yourself, you're not going to be completely dependant on 1 supplier.
      AND, you change the boons to stacking intensity instead of stacking duration. You could do this in a way of 1% per boon with a cap of 25 (like Might) (nerfing Quickness in the process). Or 5% per boon with a cap of 5. Just examples of course, the numbers could be different of course.
      But like I said before, in this way it's paramount that all professions across the board get much easier selfish access to these 2 boons!
  • ArchonWing.9480ArchonWing.9480 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 30, 2020

    Hfb is really good at carrying players that don't know what they're doing. That much is true. I'm honestly surprised of a lack of "lol i dun need healer" replies. Therefore, with a group of randoms, it's safest to bring a healbrand because you have no idea of their abilities.

    But healers aren't meta anyways, so you can't really do anything with heal specs that don't give offensive buffs. Healbrand is popular because people are lazy and don't need world class speedruns or learn mechanics. So indeed it is very useful for farmers, but honestly in these cases you don't really pursue an optimal comp anyways and are just farming.

    The other issue is that fractals are more or less phasing races. There just isn't enough time in the fight for healing over time to really matter, and survival is guaranteed if one can just mitigate the few big incoming attacks and maybe a burst heal if people are struggling.

    They probably shouldn't be able to give 100% quickness so easily though.

  • @ArchonWing.9480 said:
    Hfb is really good at carrying players that don't know what they're doing. That much is true. I'm honestly surprised of a lack of "lol i dun need healer" replies. Therefore, with a group of randoms, it's safest to bring a healbrand because you have no idea of their abilities.

    But healers aren't meta anyways, so you can't really do anything with heal specs that don't give offensive buffs. Healbrand is popular because people are lazy and don't need world class speedruns or learn mechanics. So indeed it is very useful for farmers, but honestly in these cases you don't really pursue an optimal comp anyways and are just farming.

    The other issue is that fractals are more or less phasing races. There just isn't enough time in the fight for healing over time to really matter, and survival is guaranteed if one can just mitigate the few big incoming attacks and maybe a burst heal if people are struggling.

    They probably shouldn't be able to give 100% quickness so easily though.

    I feel no boon should have 100% uptime

  • Einlanzer.1627Einlanzer.1627 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gogdarth.6741 said:
    Hot take, Guardian is actually fine and has strong builds across all gamemodes that work well with healthy variety of use cases and functions. How about instead of making this one thing that is actually good in this game worse... we make other things better instead?

    You know, like about 4 possible supports that are just not viable in PvE because they offer less? Making chrono less tedious for boonsupport, perhaps? Bringing druid back? Tempest having more stuff to offer as a support? Revenant's pony mode being a thing that isn't downright annoying to use at last? Scourge leaving meme status by having actual synergy with other specs?

    Because in general, nerfing OP classes is better than buffing UP classes. This is how you end up with runaway power creep.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2, 2020

    @Einlanzer.1627 said:

    @Gogdarth.6741 said:
    Hot take, Guardian is actually fine and has strong builds across all gamemodes that work well with healthy variety of use cases and functions. How about instead of making this one thing that is actually good in this game worse... we make other things better instead?

    You know, like about 4 possible supports that are just not viable in PvE because they offer less? Making chrono less tedious for boonsupport, perhaps? Bringing druid back? Tempest having more stuff to offer as a support? Revenant's pony mode being a thing that isn't downright annoying to use at last? Scourge leaving meme status by having actual synergy with other specs?

    Because in general, nerfing OP classes is better than buffing UP classes. This is how you end up with runaway power creep.

    The question always is, though, if a class is so good because it is OP, or is it so good because all other are bad.

    Remember, that constantly nerfing those that stand out will eventually lead to everyone being equally miserable. And that's not good at all.

    So, no, in general nerfing OP classes is not better than buffing UP classes. What you really need is to decide on what level you want your classes to be and then balance all classes to it..

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 3, 2020

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Einlanzer.1627 said:

    @Gogdarth.6741 said:
    Hot take, Guardian is actually fine and has strong builds across all gamemodes that work well with healthy variety of use cases and functions. How about instead of making this one thing that is actually good in this game worse... we make other things better instead?

    You know, like about 4 possible supports that are just not viable in PvE because they offer less? Making chrono less tedious for boonsupport, perhaps? Bringing druid back? Tempest having more stuff to offer as a support? Revenant's pony mode being a thing that isn't downright annoying to use at last? Scourge leaving meme status by having actual synergy with other specs?

    Because in general, nerfing OP classes is better than buffing UP classes. This is how you end up with runaway power creep.

    The question always is, though, if a class is so good because it is OP, or is it so good because all other are bad.

    Remember, that constantly nerfing those that stand out will eventually lead to everyone being equally miserable. And that's not good at all.

    So, no, in general nerfing OP classes is not better than buffing UP classes. What you really need is to decide on what level you want your classes to be and then balance all classes to it..

    Yet, there is no profession that is actually is miserable.
    Warrior, for example, is in a decent state and should be the bar for every profession to be balanced around.

    Buffing up professions only ends up with power-creep, which causes the need for the PvE content to be power-creeped as well.
    Doing so will not only end up with PvP being a joke, but the entire game becoming one as well.

    Thus, toning down over-performers to a decent level would be much healthier for the game.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 3, 2020

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Einlanzer.1627 said:

    @Gogdarth.6741 said:
    Hot take, Guardian is actually fine and has strong builds across all gamemodes that work well with healthy variety of use cases and functions. How about instead of making this one thing that is actually good in this game worse... we make other things better instead?

    You know, like about 4 possible supports that are just not viable in PvE because they offer less? Making chrono less tedious for boonsupport, perhaps? Bringing druid back? Tempest having more stuff to offer as a support? Revenant's pony mode being a thing that isn't downright annoying to use at last? Scourge leaving meme status by having actual synergy with other specs?

    Because in general, nerfing OP classes is better than buffing UP classes. This is how you end up with runaway power creep.

    The question always is, though, if a class is so good because it is OP, or is it so good because all other are bad.

    Remember, that constantly nerfing those that stand out will eventually lead to everyone being equally miserable. And that's not good at all.

    So, no, in general nerfing OP classes is not better than buffing UP classes. What you really need is to decide on what level you want your classes to be and then balance all classes to it..

    Yet, there is no profession that is actually is miserable.
    Warrior, for example, is in a decent state and should be the bar for every profession to be balanced around.

    Buffing up professions only ends up with power-creep, which causes the need for the PvE content to be power-creeped as well.
    Doing so will not only end up with PvP being a joke, but the entire game becoming one as well.

    Thus, toning down over-performers to a decent level would be much healthier for the game.

    My point is that you need to decide what constitutes "decent level" first, and then use it as a baseline to balance everything. As long as you keep balancing in a relative way, only looking at a performance of builds/classes against each other, you will always have a problem. Because, in such a relative balance, there will always be a build that could be considered OP (compared to others). Even if objectively looking that build would be bad.

    A build being way better than the others can mean that the build is OP, but it can also mean that the builds you compare it to are just so much trash. Thus, you need some outside baseline for comparison.

    One of the reasons why the balance in GW2 keeps jumping up and down constantly is that we do not have such a baseline.

    In this specific case, to properly balance, we would need to answer some questions first:

    • what is the overall support impact we want to have in this game?
    • how many slots we think should be dedicated to support in 5-man parties? How many in 10-man squads?
    • should there be some types of support that are class-specific?
    • how flexible should the support be (how easy should it be to slot one support class in place of another, without rearranging the whole party/squad composition)?
    • is it appropriate for a primary support build to do more than one thing at once (support+heal, support +dps, heal+dps)?

    Only after we answered that and have a vision of what the end result should be can we start balancing support classes around said vision. Just whacking with a hammer the build that is currently on top doesn't really get us anywhere. Sure, it may pacify the people that are angry now, because they run different classes, but it doesn;t really help balance in the long run.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 3, 2020

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    My point is that you need to decide what constitutes "decent level" first, and then use it as a baseline to balance everything. As long as you keep balancing in a relative way, only looking at a performance of builds/classes against each other, you will always have a problem. Because, in such a relative balance, there will always be a build that could be considered OP (compared to others). Even if objectively looking that build would be bad.

    A build being way better than the others can mean that the build is OP, but it can also mean that the builds you compare it to are just so much trash. Thus, you need some outside baseline for comparison.

    One of the reasons why the balance in GW2 keeps jumping up and down constantly is that we do not have such a baseline.

    In this specific case, to properly balance, we would need to answer some questions first:

    • what is the overall support impact we want to have in this game?
    • how many slots we think should be dedicated to support in 5-man parties? How many in 10-man squads?
    • should there be some types of support that are class-specific?
    • how flexible should the support be (how easy should it be to slot one support class in place of another, without rearranging the whole party/squad composition)?
    • is it appropriate for a primary support build to do more than one thing at once (support+heal, support +dps, heal+dps)?

    Only after we answered that and have a vision of what the end result should be can we start balancing support classes around said vision. Just whacking with a hammer the build that is currently on top doesn't really get us anywhere. Sure, it may pacify the people that are angry now, because they run different classes, but it doesn;t really help balance in the long run.

    I consider the current state of warrior as what you call a "baseline to balance everything".
    It's a fine level and the other professions need to be shaved down.

    But at the same time, Arenanet also needs to tone down all content that is only doable because of said over-performance.
    However, I doubt Arenanet is going to rework so much content.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 3, 2020

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    I consider the current state of warrior as what you call a "baseline to balance everything".
    It's a fine level and the other professions need to be shaved down.

    I actually don't agree with this. It may seems o on the surface, but in reality, the situation is more complex.
    Remember, warrior is the class whose position in party composition for raids has never been in danger. One that can't be replaced. It is the only such class. Think about it when you consider what can make a class to be considered to be OP.

    That's the power of class-unique buffs. If you were to "shave down" other classes to warrior level, you would need to buff them considerably, to the point they would have a guaranteed slot in party.

    Warriors are often overlooked, because they don't seem to do as many things as some other classes. But that completely ignores how strong the few things warrior can do are.

    (Hint: i am saying that even though warrior is the class i have been using in raids probably the most, and one i'd be very sorry to see nerfed)

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Katary.7096Katary.7096 Member ✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    I consider the current state of warrior as what you call a "baseline to balance everything".
    It's a fine level and the other professions need to be shaved down.

    When you say that, are you referencing the warrior dps or banner builds? Because the banner build generally adds way more to a group than the dps one does.

    But at the same time, Arenanet also needs to tone down all content that is only doable because of said over-performance.
    However, I doubt Arenanet is going to rework so much content.

    What is the kind of content that is no longer doable without builds "overperforming"?

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 3, 2020

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    I actually don't agree with this. It may seems o on the surface, but in reality, the situation is more complex.
    Remember, warrior is the class whose position in party composition for raids has never been in danger. One that can't be replaced. It is the only such class. Think about it when you consider what can make a class to be considered to be OP.
    That's the power of class-unique buffs. If you were to "shave down" other classes to warrior level, you would need to buff them considerably, to the point they would have a guaranteed slot in party.
    Warriors are often overlooked, because they don't seem to do as many things as some other classes. But that completely ignores how strong the few things warrior can do are.

    Other professions have unique buffs to bring, too.
    Some of them don't even need to spend utility slots on them.
    I wouldn't mind those banner boons being nerfed though.

    @Katary.7096 said:
    When you say that, are you referencing the warrior dps or banner builds? Because the banner build generally adds way more to a group than the dps one does.

    I think both the amount of support and the amount of damage are in a fine spot.
    Shaving damage down to Warrior levels and shaving down support to a level a bit above Warrior would be fine.

    What is the kind of content that is no longer doable without builds "overperforming"?

    After the damage and support has been shaved, a lot of content deals far too much damage and has far too much HP.
    This includes most of the fractal additions and changes in the last few years, especially the newest HP Sponge: Sunqua peek.
    So far, I've been in a single successful group for Sunqua Peak.
    The HP of the bosses of Siren's Reef, Deepstone and Twilight Oasis would be quite high, too.
    With the support (and healing) being reduced, the rework of Molten Furnace would be problematic too. Those burning tornadoes with their broken hit boxes would be even more punishing than they already are.
    A lot of people also have problems with the reworked Bloomhunger fight.
    Too many people already are hardly able to finish these, so when their damage and supportive abilities get reduced, their chances are getting even slimmer.

    EDIT: This would probably also affect raids and Challenge motes.
    Some story bosses (like the end boss of Season 4, Episode 2) would be affected too.
    But the story let's you continue after dying, so that's less of an issue than group content.

  • Katary.7096Katary.7096 Member ✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    I think both the amount of support and the amount of damage are in a fine spot.

    But are you applying both of these statements to banner berserker, or are they split between banner berserker being fine in terms of support and dps berserker being fine in terms of damage output?

    Shaving damage down to Warrior levels and shaving down support to a level a bit above Warrior would be fine.

    How is one supposed to measure the support of a build that focuses on healing by comparing it to the support that a banner warrior build can provide? At that point we are comparing apples to oranges.

    After the damage and support has been shaved, a lot of content deals far too much damage and has far too much HP.
    This includes most of the fractal additions and changes in the last few years, especially the newest HP Sponge: Sunqua peek.
    So far, I've been in a single successful group for Sunqua Peak.
    The HP of the bosses of Siren's Reef, Deepstone and Twilight Oasis would be quite high, too.
    With the support (and healing) being reduced, the rework of Molten Furnace would be problematic too. Those burning tornadoes with their broken hit boxes would be even more punishing than they already are.
    A lot of people also have problems with the reworked Bloomhunger fight.
    Too many people already are hardly able to finish these, so when their damage and supportive abilities get reduced, their chances are getting even slimmer.

    For all fractal content the solution is simple: The people that struggle with the content can play it on a lower tier.

    EDIT: This would probably also affect raids and Challenge motes.

    Considering that those players like the idea of playing difficult content, it should not be an issue.

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    I think both the amount of support and the amount of damage are in a fine spot.
    Shaving damage down to Warrior levels and shaving down support to a level a bit above Warrior would be fine.

    Does that mean reaper gets a 20% dps buff? Warrior is already one of the top dps professions.

    What is the kind of content that is no longer doable without builds "overperforming"?

    After the damage and support has been shaved, a lot of content deals far too much damage and has far too much HP.
    This includes most of the fractal additions and changes in the last few years, especially the newest HP Sponge: Sunqua peek.
    So far, I've been in a single successful group for Sunqua Peak.
    The HP of the bosses of Siren's Reef, Deepstone and Twilight Oasis would be quite high, too.
    With the support (and healing) being reduced, the rework of Molten Furnace would be problematic too. Those burning tornadoes with their broken hit boxes would be even more punishing than they already are.
    A lot of people also have problems with the reworked Bloomhunger fight.
    Too many people already are hardly able to finish these, so when their damage and supportive abilities get reduced, their chances are getting even slimmer.

    EDIT: This would probably also affect raids and Challenge motes.
    Some story bosses (like the end boss of Season 4, Episode 2) would be affected too.
    But the story let's you continue after dying, so that's less of an issue than group content.

    I hope you are joking. Most raids can be 5manned currently and they are tuned for way lower dps. You could cut dps in half and they would need to adjustments. The new fractal is one of the easiest in normal mode and the cm is easier than the other ones. People still struggling with bloomhunger shouldnt play t4 then.
    Not every fractal fight should be over in <30sec. Normal sunqua endboss is ~3min which isnt particularly long either. Shaving support just means going back to 5dps meta btw. Either have powerful support or its not worth taking it at all. I kinda enjoy the boon role in gw. Instead of healer, tank, dps you have healer, boons, dps or boons, dps.
    Warrior has almost no support outside of banners or mightstack. Shaving support down to this level would be a huge step backwards.

  • Laila Lightness.8742Laila Lightness.8742 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 3, 2020

    Hfb needs a nerf wipe its quick stab and fury put aegis swiftness in their place aame on chrono with alarc and quickness. No skill should add more than 1 boon

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 4, 2020

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    Other professions have unique buffs to bring, too.

    Sure, but is there any other profession whose unique buffs practically guarantee them a slot?
    Again, throughout the whole GW2 raiding history, there was never a moment where warrior was out of meta squad composition. Even the other former fixtures (Chrono and Druid) were eventually put in a situation where they are no longer a certain choice, but warrior keeps its spot still. And all that is because of banners.

    Warrior is a fixture in a raid composition now. So, if you were to "shave down" any other profession to the warrior level, it would have to end in a place where it is also guaranteed a spot. That's not a nerf - you are talking here about an overall buff to most professions. A very unhealthy buff at that, seeing as the end result would be a very locked meta, with 9 slots reserved for 9 professions, and only one last slot being potentially open (or one profession being guaranteed 2 slots instead of one).

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 4, 2020

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Warrior is a fixture in a raid composition now.

    I don't think raids should have too much influence, if any at all, when it comes to balance.
    Raids are mereley played by the top end, which possibly doesn't even amount to 1% of the players.

    @Katary.7096 said:
    For all fractal content the solution is simple: The people that struggle with the content can play it on a lower tier.

    Except your wrong there. Doing lower tiers does not solve all problem. It probably doesn't even solve half of them.
    a few examples:
    In T1 and T2, the boss has nearly the same HP and damage output as on T3 (at least it feels that way, doing it with the very same T3 group), as well as all her AoE and CC spam.
    The burning tornadoes retain their broken hit boxes and unnecessarily high damage in T1.
    Bloomhunger still farts out poison AoE like there is no tomorrow.
    many things people have problems with are unrelated to the fractal tier.

    Arenanet made fractals increasingly casual-unfriendly over the past few years and needs to fix that direction.

    @Nephalem.8921 said:
    Does that mean reaper gets a 20% dps buff? Warrior is already one of the top dps professions.

    Most Reapers I see seem to be doing better than most Warriors I see.

    Most raids can be 5manned currently and they are tuned for way lower dps. You could cut dps in half and they would need to adjustments.

    This implies that top end players are lacking of challenge.
    Cutting the damage down would provide you said challenge. It'd be a win to the top end.
    Also, the Top end supposedly does 10 times as much damage as the average, so cutting the damage in half might still be a rather mild nerf for the top end.

    The new fractal is one of the easiest in normal mode

    It's still overloaded with too high damage, too much HP and atrocious AoE spam.

    People still struggling with bloomhunger shouldnt play t4 then.

    I don't think I ever mentioned T4. As I mentioned numerous times on these forums, balance needs to be done around the average, not around the small top end.

    Not every fractal fight should be over in <30sec. Normal sunqua endboss is ~3min which isnt particularly long either.

    Even the one time I've beaten it, it took well over 15 minutes.