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The next Khan-Ur of the Charr (SPOILERS)

I'm almost 100% certain that by the end of IBS there will be a new Khan-Ur, changing Charr society for the better. I've seen other people theorize that It'll be Crecia or Rytlock, which I admit both are likely candidates to be the next Khan, but I don't think that'll be the case. Personally I both think and hope that it's going to be Effram Greetsglory, I think he's perfect for the role, he was introduced in Bound by Blood, and believes that the legions should work together instead of fight, he's extremely kind to others but also gets serious when necessary to defend his fellow Charr. With Smodur's death, Effram was given control over the Iron Legion, which means that currently, Effram is the leader of half the legions of the Charr, I think it's only a matter of time before he becomes leader of all four. Plus, on another note, our main enemy this season is Jormag, a being of ice, and who is Effram Greetsglory? A powerful leader of fire, I believe Effram will play an extremely crucial part in taking down Jormag and then will rise to the position of Khan-Ur at the end of the saga.

Comments

  • Harak.8397Harak.8397 Member ✭✭✭

    My understanding is that Effram isn't even officially Imperator of the Flame Legion. He will "lead" Iron right until someone shows up to replace Smodur ( what a waste) and not a second longer. Personally, I don't even think the Khan-Ur position will be filled by the end of the saga.

    The questions we should ask ourselves is who will lead Blood and who will lead Iron by the end of IBS. Will Crecia end up with the mantle of Blood Legion Imperator by default? (She's flame by origin) and "Tribune" Brimstone hasn't been with his legion in years. Will end up with the job ...by virtue of being the only Blood Tribune we actually know? Not to mention that neither of them are of the Blood Imperator line ( if that still means something).

    Iron is a toss up. A good bet is to go with whoever the gang name dropped after Smodur's unceremonious exit. Mia Kindleshot I think ? Fume Brighteye would make an interesting choice by virtue of being more hot blooded. (I don't think we've ever seen her in game though). Then there is Bhuer Goreblade, head of the Adamant Guard. The Charr player interacts with him some during the personal story. The fact that he's male would make it a 2/2 split among Imperators of the Legions assuming Crecia and Effram both get confirmed to their new jobs. That would have symbolic value in any future Charr council ... which I think is where Charr society is headed ultimately.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I hope there won't be another Khan-ur.

    The Charr should get a council of the four imperators.

  • @Scraggy.3814 said:
    With Smodur's death, Effram was given control over the Iron Legion, which means that currently, Effram is the leader of half the legions of the Charr,

    This is incorrect. Efram was given command of Iron Legion troops for the assault on the Frost Citadel and nothing else. He does not control the Iron Legion, not even within the whole Drizzlewood theater of war. He only commanded the Iron troops assaulting Frost Citadel.

    Efram is also very unlikely to be Khan-Ur due to the fact that he is Flame Legion. Most charr do not trust Flame yet - even most of Flame do not trust non-Flame. Efram's goal is peace, not leadership. He only became Imperator of Flame Legion because he was the highest ranking charr who wanted peace and fell into the position. Even then, during Bound by Blood, he wasn't technically the Flame Imperator, just the temporary defacto leader of the Flame vying for peace. There are Flame out there who do not follow Efram (and I don't mean those who joined the Dominion either).

    It simply wouldn't be realistic for someone who wasn't even an imperator by the beginning of the story to become Khan-Ur of all charr.

    Besides this, Malice has a much higher degree of credibility than Efram.

    Most likely, though, there won't be a new Khan-Ur. Firstly, because charr society has existed for over a thousand years without one, despite various attempts to "crown" a new Khan-Ur. Secondly, and more importantly, is that the charr side of the Icebrood Saga has a running theme of traditionalists versus progressives. Those who value old charr ideals and charr superiority, and those who value new charr ideals and peace. This divided into Dominion versus United Legions and despite some Dominion calling the United Legions "old charr", the Dominion were stuck with values of the past and were far more caught up with concepts as old as the Khan-Ur as Smodur was.

    The rest of the United Legions aren't caught up in those ideals, and that includes both warring with humans and having a Khan-Ur.

    I think the ending of the charr will be:

    • Rytlock becomes new Blood Imperator
    • Mia Kindleshot becomes new Iron Imperator
    • Efram declared official Flame Imperator
    • Malice is the only proper candidate but denies Khan-Ur position

    Now, there was a comment that after Episode 4, there will be updates that are more closely tied to Season 1's system, and this included as an example the vote between Kiel and Gnashblade. Suggesting that the community might be voting for some charr official. I imagine this will be either a) Blood Imperator and/or b) Iron Imperator. Maybe it will include Khan-Ur, but I think they'll keep the charr without a Khan-Ur.

    If so, then the outcome will be determined more by players than the writers.

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  • Harak.8397Harak.8397 Member ✭✭✭

    I'm thinking Rytlock becoming Blood Legion Imperator would effectively write him "off the team" as a member of Dragon's watch. If the writers do indeed plan on retiring ( softly ) the character. Not unlike how they proceeded with Rox. That's another avenue of possibilities...

  • Svennis.3852Svennis.3852 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 24, 2020

    I’m not convinced Rytlock will survive the Saga, but if he does... I find it hard to believe he’d want a political position, after how long he’s seemed to dodge his own legion. The only way I could see him having a change of heart is for Ryland to perish by the end, the guilt of which drives him to become a leader to make sure this kind of thing never happens again. Whether that’s as Khan-Ur or Blood Imperator, I’m not sure.

    Honestly though, Crecia seems to be the character they are showing at length to be an intelligent and level headed political player. She seems like the ideal candidate to lead the United Legions in so far as we’ve seen. Seems to have less of an agenda thus far too.

    Effram is an interesting choice though. I think his qualities would make him a great leader, but I don’t think the Charr at large trust Flame enough for that. I do believe they’ll canonize him as an Imperator though, as others have mentioned.

    Personally, I see Rytlock dying to save Ryland, or Ryland dying as (ultimately) character development for Rytlock. Crecia will gain a position of power one way or another. Mia Kindleshot was name dropped as Smodur’s second, so I believe she’ll succeed him. But if there’s a vote this might all be moot. Would be a fun change of pace.

    Either way, big reforms seem guaranteed for the Charr following IBS.

  • @Svennis.3852 said:
    Honestly though, Crecia seems to be the character they are showing at length to be an intelligent and level headed political player. She seems like the ideal candidate to lead the United Legions in so far as we’ve seen. Seems to have less of an agenda thus far too.

    She can't become Blood Imperator, because she's born Flame. Imperators (and by extension, Khan-Ur candidates) have to be descended from the original Khan-Ur's four children. It's the one position in charr hierarchy that is a dynasty and not based on merit or kill count. While there's no confirmation of Rytlock being of the bloodline, his interactions with Bangar have led some (myself included) to think that Rytlock may be Bangar's son.

    Crecia's ties to Flame and closeness to Ryland and Bangar would probably put a lot of doubt into her among the non-Blood soldiers, harming her chances at Khan-Ur position. It would be a curious plot twist to make Crecia descended from the first Flame imperator (her father is denoted as being high ranking shaman), which would make her a viable candidate for Khan-Ur if enough charr support her (technically Flame Imperator too, but she's been distanced from that legion for too long).

    This is, of course, assuming that ANet holds to that piece of lore from The Ecology of the Charr. Post-HoT writing does have a tendency to ignore pre-Season 3 lore here and there.

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  • Svennis.3852Svennis.3852 Member ✭✭✭

    Yeah, I suppose I don’t know enough about the lore, but from a storytelling standpoint she just seems like the best presented option and something I could see the narrative around her building to. I think as you mention though, the traditionalist vs progressive conflict that seems to be on-going might result in an entirely new status quo.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Svennis.3852 said:
    Honestly though, Crecia seems to be the character they are showing at length to be an intelligent and level headed political player. She seems like the ideal candidate to lead the United Legions in so far as we’ve seen. Seems to have less of an agenda thus far too.

    She can't become Blood Imperator, because she's born Flame. Imperators (and by extension, Khan-Ur candidates) have to be descended from the original Khan-Ur's four children. It's the one position in charr hierarchy that is a dynasty and not based on merit or kill count. While there's no confirmation of Rytlock being of the bloodline, his interactions with Bangar have led some (myself included) to think that Rytlock may be Bangar's son.

    Crecia's ties to Flame and closeness to Ryland and Bangar would probably put a lot of doubt into her among the non-Blood soldiers, harming her chances at Khan-Ur position. It would be a curious plot twist to make Crecia descended from the first Flame imperator (her father is denoted as being high ranking shaman), which would make her a viable candidate for Khan-Ur if enough charr support her (technically Flame Imperator too, but she's been distanced from that legion for too long).

    This is, of course, assuming that ANet holds to that piece of lore from The Ecology of the Charr. Post-HoT writing does have a tendency to ignore pre-Season 3 lore here and there.

    The ambient dialogue among Grothmar, show that the majority of the legions respect Crecia, she could be a possible candidate for Khan-Ur.

  • @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Svennis.3852 said:
    Honestly though, Crecia seems to be the character they are showing at length to be an intelligent and level headed political player. She seems like the ideal candidate to lead the United Legions in so far as we’ve seen. Seems to have less of an agenda thus far too.

    She can't become Blood Imperator, because she's born Flame. Imperators (and by extension, Khan-Ur candidates) have to be descended from the original Khan-Ur's four children. It's the one position in charr hierarchy that is a dynasty and not based on merit or kill count. While there's no confirmation of Rytlock being of the bloodline, his interactions with Bangar have led some (myself included) to think that Rytlock may be Bangar's son.

    Crecia's ties to Flame and closeness to Ryland and Bangar would probably put a lot of doubt into her among the non-Blood soldiers, harming her chances at Khan-Ur position. It would be a curious plot twist to make Crecia descended from the first Flame imperator (her father is denoted as being high ranking shaman), which would make her a viable candidate for Khan-Ur if enough charr support her (technically Flame Imperator too, but she's been distanced from that legion for too long).

    This is, of course, assuming that ANet holds to that piece of lore from The Ecology of the Charr. Post-HoT writing does have a tendency to ignore pre-Season 3 lore here and there.

    The ambient dialogue among Grothmar, show that the majority of the legions respect Crecia, she could be a possible candidate for Khan-Ur.

    Did a quick search on wiki. Other than Blood, the only ambient dialogue I saw about Crecia was from an Ash complimenting her spy work, which isn't the same as complimenting her leadership.

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  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Svennis.3852 said:
    Honestly though, Crecia seems to be the character they are showing at length to be an intelligent and level headed political player. She seems like the ideal candidate to lead the United Legions in so far as we’ve seen. Seems to have less of an agenda thus far too.

    She can't become Blood Imperator, because she's born Flame. Imperators (and by extension, Khan-Ur candidates) have to be descended from the original Khan-Ur's four children. It's the one position in charr hierarchy that is a dynasty and not based on merit or kill count. While there's no confirmation of Rytlock being of the bloodline, his interactions with Bangar have led some (myself included) to think that Rytlock may be Bangar's son.

    Crecia's ties to Flame and closeness to Ryland and Bangar would probably put a lot of doubt into her among the non-Blood soldiers, harming her chances at Khan-Ur position. It would be a curious plot twist to make Crecia descended from the first Flame imperator (her father is denoted as being high ranking shaman), which would make her a viable candidate for Khan-Ur if enough charr support her (technically Flame Imperator too, but she's been distanced from that legion for too long).

    This is, of course, assuming that ANet holds to that piece of lore from The Ecology of the Charr. Post-HoT writing does have a tendency to ignore pre-Season 3 lore here and there.

    The ambient dialogue among Grothmar, show that the majority of the legions respect Crecia, she could be a possible candidate for Khan-Ur.

    Did a quick search on wiki. Other than Blood, the only ambient dialogue I saw about Crecia was from an Ash complimenting her spy work, which isn't the same as complimenting her leadership.

    They do compliment her leadership of the United Legions in Drizzlewood though.

  • Svennis.3852Svennis.3852 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 25, 2020

    Hell, the hypothetical new status quo could just be that Khan-Ur is no longer stipulated by blood relation and will now be an electable position. Which would make sense if ANet let’s players vote on story beats again.

  • Wolfb.7025Wolfb.7025 Member ✭✭✭

    Excuse me, Rytlock as candidate? not by a long shot, he has done anything in favor to the Charr, in any case, he's a rogue charr that went AWOL just to go adventure with a group of other races.
    I really doubt Crecia would be a khan-ur candidate, if nythign she might become the next blood legion imperator but that's something I really doubt it will happen. Remember than a Kahn.Ur status is won through dedicationa nd trust over the years by all four legions. If anything, Smodur was the only and best candidate to become next Khan-Ur in this generation.

    I really doubt we will get a Khan-Ur in GW2, everyone knows what will happen afterwards if there isn't a resolution to all races conflicts before we get a Khan-Ur and that's something the plot can't afford to have from the player's POV.

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  • Wolfb.7025Wolfb.7025 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    I think the ending of the charr will be:

    • Rytlock becomes new Blood Imperator
    • Mia Kindleshot becomes new Iron Imperator
    • Efram declared official Flame Imperator
    • Malice is the only proper candidate but denies Khan-Ur position

    Rytlock doesn't have much of a possitive status withing Blood Legion, he basically ditched the legions for a while to do whatever unrelated to the charr he wanted and he gained some bad reputation out of that, on top of having Bangar probably bad mouthing him for "not being a good tribune like his cub is", he might be Anet's mascot but he's if anythign, the worst candidate to command anything Charr related.

    Mia might be a good bet to become Iron legion imperator. But there is also Bhuer Goreblade who is the head of the Adamant Guards on Black Citadel and has had plenty of screen on the Charr Personal Story. My thoughts is that we won't have an iron legion imperator, we should just wait to see how the story develops, or until Anet decides out of thin air "X is new iron imperator".

    Its a given Efram will be next Flame Imperator, i'm surprised he isn't already (unless Anet kills him as another excuse plot).

    Malice might have good intentions, but right now she's nowhere near to be a candidate; its known Ash legion is so frowned upon for being super secretive even with fellow legions (a good strategy, but that only rises suspiction and untrust) and she's still young even to be an Imperator. Khan-Ur is something that you win with effort and hard work through many, many years. Smodur was old and who knows how much time he has been working on getting the Khan-Ur title, but he was still decades far from getting the title. Malice isn't specifically doing anything for that, "denying the khan-ur position" is an overstatement as she isn't even close to it.

    AN on topic, remember that Khan-Ur is a serious title, its not something that someone could get just for the sake of it. We haven't had a Khan-Ur in mileniums, we won't get one now, it takes way more than everyone thinks.

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  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Wolfb.7025 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    I think the ending of the charr will be:

    • Rytlock becomes new Blood Imperator
    • Mia Kindleshot becomes new Iron Imperator
    • Efram declared official Flame Imperator
    • Malice is the only proper candidate but denies Khan-Ur position

    Rytlock doesn't have much of a possitive status withing Blood Legion, he basically ditched the legions for a while to do whatever unrelated to the charr he wanted and he gained some bad reputation out of that, on top of having Bangar probably bad mouthing him for "not being a good tribune like his cub is", he might be Anet's mascot but he's if anythign, the worst candidate to command anything Charr related.

    Mia might be a good bet to become Iron legion imperator. But there is also Bhuer Goreblade who is the head of the Adamant Guards on Black Citadel and has had plenty of screen on the Charr Personal Story. My thoughts is that we won't have an iron legion imperator, we should just wait to see how the story develops, or until Anet decides out of thin air "X is new iron imperator".

    Its a given Efram will be next Flame Imperator, i'm surprised he isn't already (unless Anet kills him as another excuse plot).

    Malice might have good intentions, but right now she's nowhere near to be a candidate; its known Ash legion is so frowned upon for being super secretive even with fellow legions (a good strategy, but that only rises suspiction and untrust) and she's still young even to be an Imperator. Khan-Ur is something that you win with effort and hard work through many, many years. Smodur was old and who knows how much time he has been working on getting the Khan-Ur title, but he was still decades far from getting the title. Malice isn't specifically doing anything for that, "denying the khan-ur position" is an overstatement as she isn't even close to it.

    AN on topic, remember that Khan-Ur is a serious title, its not something that someone could get just for the sake of it. We haven't had a Khan-Ur in mileniums, we won't get one now, it takes way more than everyone thinks.

    Crecia makes a bunch of statements at the end of the episode that the Charr were nearly destroyed and that stronger leadership is needed. The ambient dialogue from other Chart in Drizzlewood advise of Crecia leading the United Legions. If there is a candidate for Khan Ur she would be it, especially if they are claiming that the Charr almost became extinct and need a new leader to rally them.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Scraggy.3814 said:
    I'm almost 100% certain that by the end of IBS there will be a new Khan-Ur, changing Charr society for the better. I've seen other people theorize that It'll be Crecia or Rytlock, which I admit both are likely candidates to be the next Khan, but I don't think that'll be the case. Personally I both think and hope that it's going to be Effram Greetsglory, I think he's perfect for the role, he was introduced in Bound by Blood, and believes that the legions should work together instead of fight, he's extremely kind to others but also gets serious when necessary to defend his fellow Charr. With Smodur's death, Effram was given control over the Iron Legion, which means that currently, Effram is the leader of half the legions of the Charr, I think it's only a matter of time before he becomes leader of all four. Plus, on another note, our main enemy this season is Jormag, a being of ice, and who is Effram Greetsglory? A powerful leader of fire, I believe Effram will play an extremely crucial part in taking down Jormag and then will rise to the position of Khan-Ur at the end of the saga.

    Nah, it's gonna be Taimi as honorary Khan-Ur. Mark my words!

  • @Wolfb.7025 said:
    If anything, Smodur was the only and best candidate to become next Khan-Ur in this generation.

    Smodur and Bangar were both considered viable candidates until Bangar's relations with the Renegades and going to serve Jormag got revealed.

    @Wolfb.7025 said:
    Rytlock doesn't have much of a possitive status withing Blood Legion, he basically ditched the legions for a while to do whatever unrelated to the charr he wanted and he gained some bad reputation out of that, on top of having Bangar probably bad mouthing him for "not being a good tribune like his cub is", he might be Anet's mascot but he's if anythign, the worst candidate to command anything Charr related.

    Disagreed. Rytlock is considered famous among the Blood Legion - and other legions at that. While there are lines in Grothmar that are criticizing him, overall view by the charr throughout the game is very, very positive. And

    In addition, during Bound by Blood, Bangar pressures Rytlock into taking the seat of imperator. Which indicates that Rytlock can within the rules of the Blood Legion. He didn't because he didn't want to play into Bangar's hands (and Crecia would disapprove), but given that Rytlock has taken the title of tribune, he isn't above office work, even if he enjoys field work more.

    He's basically the Jon Snow of the charr. He is very much a viable candidate, and some people will no doubt be wanting him to take the Imperator title, but he just doesn't want it. Hopefully he won't be kneeling to a queen that goes homicidal too. ;)

    And the fact that he took the position of Tribune for 7 years (until the events of Season 2 where he jumps into the Mists) and held onto the rank even after going "AWOL", indicates that he is both fully capable of an office job, and has enough respect to maintain his position even if he breaks some social norms.

    Mia might be a good bet to become Iron legion imperator. But there is also Bhuer Goreblade who is the head of the Adamant Guards on Black Citadel and has had plenty of screen on the Charr Personal Story. My thoughts is that we won't have an iron legion imperator, we should just wait to see how the story develops, or until Anet decides out of thin air "X is new iron imperator".

    Assuming that ANet holds onto the bloodline bit, then Bhuer is not a viable candidate for Iron Imperator. He is descended from a low warrior and became a Tribune through merit. Mia's history isn't established, and she is called Smodur's second by Malice, making her a viable candidate.

    If ANet holds onto the bloodline requirement from 2007 lore, then the next Imperator for both Blood and Iron will come out of either Smodur/Bangar's children or their warband (the Primus Warbands are the only bloodline-based warbands in the four High Legions).

    "The primus warband of any legion carries the name of that legion—Ash, Blood, Iron and in the case of the Gold Legion, Flame. This singular legion is hereditary, but the leader must claim the name through blood challenge—a fight between descendants of the Khan-Ur for supremacy within the legion."
    "Occasionally, non-descendants of the Khan-Ur join the primus warband, taking the name of their leader as their own, as is Charr tradition. But the leader of the primus is always a descendant of the Khan-Ur, the foremost heir of the legion and their rightful inheritor of the crown of leadership among the Charr."

    Note that the "carries the name of that legion" was changed, like much of The Movement of the World that came out at the same time, given Bangar's, Gaheron's, and Malice's surname.

    Would have been neat if Efram's surname included "fire" in it, to indicate having been part of Gaheron's warband. Then again, ANet could just add the simple stipulation that the Imperator can change their surname to not match their warband name.

    Its a given Efram will be next Flame Imperator, i'm surprised he isn't already (unless Anet kills him as another excuse plot).

    I think he is by the time of No Quarter, but he wasn't during Bound by Blood. Most likely, the opposition to his rank left with the Dominion, thus he got it outright.

    AN on topic, remember that Khan-Ur is a serious title, its not something that someone could get just for the sake of it. We haven't had a Khan-Ur in mileniums, we won't get one now, it takes way more than everyone thinks.

    Technically speaking, there have been Khan-Ur's besides the first. It's just that they get assassinated by opposition or challenged to combat and lost before they could hold the position for a significant amount of time:

    "There has been no true Khan-Ur for over a thousand years. Although the position has been claimed several times, no Charr has been able to hold the crown for more than a handful of years, certainly not enough time to solidify the title or create a new lineage. Each one has been overthrown shortly after making the daring claim; the Charr accept no ruler who is not strong enough to defend his throne. "
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Ecology_of_the_Charr

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  • @Tyson.5160 said:
    Crecia makes a bunch of statements at the end of the episode that the Charr were nearly destroyed and that stronger leadership is needed. The ambient dialogue from other Chart in Drizzlewood advise of Crecia leading the United Legions. If there is a candidate for Khan Ur she would be it, especially if they are claiming that the Charr almost became extinct and need a new leader to rally them.

    I don't think the whole "almost became extinct" bit can be taken literally. Even if there were theaters of war elsewhere besides Drizzlewood, the charr species is huge and so is their territory. They have Ascalon, the Blood Legion Homelands to the north, and lands to the east of the Blazeridge. About the size of all of Elona in total. We only see fighting on Drizzlewood's front, and the land could not support even the majority of the charr species' numbers.

    Would have been a nice way to show fighting outside of Drizzlewood between Dominion and United Legion by having player-triggered Dominion spawns for those who have begun No Quarter or Jormag Rising in Ascalon maps... But they didn't do such so we have no clue how widespread this "charr civil war" was. But what we saw wasn't enough to risk the species.

    Most likely, Crecia was talking about the structure - half of the leaders have died, the peace accords with Flame got shaken, and so did the peace treaty with humans given the Dominion sieged human towns. But at best, Crecia's statements are about how Bangar was leading so many charr to Jormag's thrall, and would lead so many more, that it makes a huge dent in the charr population.

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  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 25, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Crecia makes a bunch of statements at the end of the episode that the Charr were nearly destroyed and that stronger leadership is needed. The ambient dialogue from other Chart in Drizzlewood advise of Crecia leading the United Legions. If there is a candidate for Khan Ur she would be it, especially if they are claiming that the Charr almost became extinct and need a new leader to rally them.

    I don't think the whole "almost became extinct" bit can be taken literally. Even if there were theaters of war elsewhere besides Drizzlewood, the charr species is huge and so is their territory. They have Ascalon, the Blood Legion Homelands to the north, and lands to the east of the Blazeridge. About the size of all of Elona in total. We only see fighting on Drizzlewood's front, and the land could not support even the majority of the charr species' numbers.

    Would have been a nice way to show fighting outside of Drizzlewood between Dominion and United Legion by having player-triggered Dominion spawns for those who have begun No Quarter or Jormag Rising in Ascalon maps... But they didn't do such so we have no clue how widespread this "charr civil war" was. But what we saw wasn't enough to risk the species.

    Most likely, Crecia was talking about the structure - half of the leaders have died, the peace accords with Flame got shaken, and so did the peace treaty with humans given the Dominion sieged human towns. But at best, Crecia's statements are about how Bangar was leading so many charr to Jormag's thrall, and would lead so many more, that it makes a huge dent in the charr population.

    Seems like a perfect opportunity for Anet to do another community vote, and the next Khan Ur, would definitely be a huge impact to the game lore. I personally, don’t give two kitten about who the next Iron and Blood Imperator are, but the Khan Ur, that definitely excites me.

  • Svennis.3852Svennis.3852 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 25, 2020

    For me the exciting thing about the massive upheaval this war has caused within Charr society is bound to bring about big reforms to their culture and government. Sure, they could go back to maintaining the status quo, but I love the idea this turmoil may permanently change the Charr way of life. We haven’t quite seen one of the five races go through something so huge, excluding perhaps the reveal about the origins of the Sylvari.

    Edit: Then again, we really haven’t got to see how the events of HoTs have affected the Sylvari in a major way, unfortunately... Only little comments and hints, like the lone Sylvari at the Festival of the Four Winds. And absolutely nothing about the Nightmare Court’s existence following Faolain’s death, either. So maybe the same will happen here. :/

  • @Svennis.3852 said:
    For me the exciting thing about the massive upheaval this war has caused within Charr society is bound to bring about big reforms to their culture and government. Sure, they could go back to maintaining the status quo, but I love the idea this turmoil may permanently change the Charr way of life. We haven’t quite seen one of the five races go through something so huge, excluding perhaps the reveal about the origins of the Sylvari.

    Edit: Then again, we really haven’t got to see how the events of HoTs have affected the Sylvari in a major way, unfortunately... Only little comments and hints, like the lone Sylvari at the Festival of the Four Winds. And absolutely nothing about the Nightmare Court’s existence following Faolain’s death, either. So maybe the same will happen here. :/

    Its a strong possibility with the writers at Anet, unfortunately.

    Hate Is Fuel.

  • Hannelore.8153Hannelore.8153 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 27, 2020

    @Svennis.3852 said:
    For me the exciting thing about the massive upheaval this war has caused within Charr society is bound to bring about big reforms to their culture and government. Sure, they could go back to maintaining the status quo, but I love the idea this turmoil may permanently change the Charr way of life. We haven’t quite seen one of the five races go through something so huge, excluding perhaps the reveal about the origins of the Sylvari.

    Edit: Then again, we really haven’t got to see how the events of HoTs have affected the Sylvari in a major way, unfortunately... Only little comments and hints, like the lone Sylvari at the Festival of the Four Winds. And absolutely nothing about the Nightmare Court’s existence following Faolain’s death, either. So maybe the same will happen here. :/

    Regarding the Nightmare Court, while they're still around I do believe all the leaders are dead. Between Personal Story, Twilight Arbor, and Heart of Thorns they lose pretty much everyone in a position of power. Plus their numbers were already very low compared to other Sylvari since they were just an offshoot, so I imagine the events of the HoT thinned out their ranks significantly.

    Not to mention the events will have changed the minds of alot of remaining Nightmare Court about distancing theirselves from the Dream, since it would've given them a major existential crisis. Hardship has a way of draining the evil from people.

    I imagine that currently the Nightmare Court is in a very similar state to the Flame Legion.

    So who wants to guess what happens to the Sons of Svanir after IBS? :p

    Hannah | Daisuki[SUKI] Founder, Ehmry Bay, NA | 22 charas, 16k hours, 27k AP | ♀♥♀
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  • @Hannelore.8153 said:
    Regarding the Nightmare Court, while they're still around I do believe all the leaders are dead. Between Personal Story, Twilight Arbor, and Heart of Thorns they lose pretty much everyone in a position of power. Plus their numbers were already very low compared to other Sylvari since they were just an offshoot, so I imagine the events of the HoT thinned out their ranks significantly.

    They have at least one duchess, Chrysanthea, which is the highest non-de facto leader position (which is Grand Duchess). So they're not entirely out of leaders.

    Not to mention the events will have changed the minds of alot of remaining Nightmare Court about distancing theirselves from the Dream, since it would've given them a major existential crisis. Hardship has a way of draining the evil from people.

    This would be very interesting to see, because the Nightmare Court were divided into two philosophical beliefs - the original idea of "becoming true sylvari" and the newer idea of serving and spreading the Nightmare. I imagine most who followed the original philosphy (those who's minds didn't get warped by the Nightmare) would have turned Mordrem Guard like Stavemaster Adryn.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    Regarding the Nightmare Court, while they're still around I do believe all the leaders are dead. Between Personal Story, Twilight Arbor, and Heart of Thorns they lose pretty much everyone in a position of power. Plus their numbers were already very low compared to other Sylvari since they were just an offshoot, so I imagine the events of the HoT thinned out their ranks significantly.

    They have at least one duchess, Chrysanthea, which is the highest non-de facto leader position (which is Grand Duchess). So they're not entirely out of leaders.

    Not to mention the events will have changed the minds of alot of remaining Nightmare Court about distancing theirselves from the Dream, since it would've given them a major existential crisis. Hardship has a way of draining the evil from people.

    This would be very interesting to see, because the Nightmare Court were divided into two philosophical beliefs - the original idea of "becoming true sylvari" and the newer idea of serving and spreading the Nightmare. I imagine most who followed the original philosphy (those who's minds didn't get warped by the Nightmare) would have turned Mordrem Guard like Stavemaster Adryn.

    And the second group, if the sylvari PS is to be believed, are beyond hope. Not that we're likely to find out.

    Hate Is Fuel.

  • Calling it now. Rox for Khan-Ur. She gon' show all of BC the Olmakhan way.

  • From what I understand the flame legion has not 100 percent turned over a new leaf. Efran is said to be the leader of a splinter group of the Flame not the whole legion. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

    Right now we have Malice left of the original 4 leaders at launch. I do think that Crecia as Bangars second and Mia as Smolders second will take control. Bangar is a slave to a dragon now as is Ryland.

    I'm foreseeing a change for the char. The existence of the Olmakhan, splinter of Flame, the formation of the Frost and Dominon,and the sedition of blood will be a major culture shift.

    I'm very curious to see where we go.

  • @Jack Swiftclaw.9076 said:
    From what I understand the flame legion has not 100 percent turned over a new leaf. Efran is said to be the leader of a splinter group of the Flame not the whole legion. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

    The way No Quarter makes it sound is that the group following Efram is the greater majority of Flame ever since the Molten Alliance situation (where the majority of Flame leaders supported that alliance instead), and now those who aren't following Efram have put in with the Dominion.

    Though there might be small pockets here and there that are still independent, these seem to be overall miniscule.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    Regarding the Nightmare Court, while they're still around I do believe all the leaders are dead. Between Personal Story, Twilight Arbor, and Heart of Thorns they lose pretty much everyone in a position of power. Plus their numbers were already very low compared to other Sylvari since they were just an offshoot, so I imagine the events of the HoT thinned out their ranks significantly.

    They have at least one duchess, Chrysanthea, which is the highest non-de facto leader position (which is Grand Duchess). So they're not entirely out of leaders.

    Not to mention the events will have changed the minds of alot of remaining Nightmare Court about distancing theirselves from the Dream, since it would've given them a major existential crisis. Hardship has a way of draining the evil from people.

    This would be very interesting to see, because the Nightmare Court were divided into two philosophical beliefs - the original idea of "becoming true sylvari" and the newer idea of serving and spreading the Nightmare. I imagine most who followed the original philosophy (those who's minds didn't get warped by the Nightmare) would have turned Mordrem Guard like Stavemaster Adryn.

    I'm not sure about that. The original philosophy wasn't "become true sylvari" so much as "let the sylvari make their own choices free from outside interference". As Faolain said before the Vinetooth got her, having Mordremoth's wishes forced upon them would be just as bad as Ventari's. If anything, I'd say that those that were fanatical followers of the Nightmare might be the more susceptible of the two philosophies, since they are open to outside influence through the Nightmare, and there's evidence that Mordremoth might have had some tendrils in the Nightmare.

  • Tazer.2157Tazer.2157 Member ✭✭✭

    I think the proper title should be held by Queen Jennah. The Charr are not different from the humans now. We already have a capable leader for the humans. She would do well to lead the Charr and solve the problems in Ascalon.

  • I definitely agree that the United Legions vs. the Dominion was about progressives vs. traditionalists. Well, before the Dominion was co-opted by Jormag as the Frost Legion. All traditionalists are jerks was the order of the day under Bangar, I think that it's about recognising which aspects of charr culture are progressive or harmful, respectively. What I find odd is that anyone would believe that the United Legions (the aforementioned progressives) would uphold the tradition of imperatorship. There's a lore perspective that everything written is objective truth and should remain that way forever, I personally find this a rigid way of thinking that's in opposition to the subjective nature of the lore that ArenaNet's writing team seems to be a proponent of. They prefer lore being told from perspectives with there being no absolute, undeniable, or objective truth. A world is an evolving place and there would be no reason for a faction of progressives to stick with the problematic traditions they're actually fighting against. To wit, there's no believable reason why Crecia couldn't earn imperatorship, which she might already have. Imperatorship is going to be in the opniion of the people as they are now, not as they were historically. Tyria has always been a living world.

    I'm also inclined to believe that for the foreseeable future, the United Legions will opt for a council. So much of this story is about the charr moving forward and claiming their own identity contrary to whatever others would have of them, this also means fully leaving behind Guild Wars 1 and burning those particular bridges for good. Hostility for the charr needs to be left behind in teh past, where it belongs. I mean, that there's a "Make Ascalon Great Again" thread on the front page of the lore forum rihgt now is fairly telling of what kind of pernicious perspectives have taken root in the community. Whatever happened in Guild Wars 1 is not the fault of either Guild Wars 2 players or the contemporary charr as they stand now. This whole war is about making a point that the past is done with, that it should be left there, and the world is simply going to move on with or without those ready to accept the march of time.

    So Crecia for Blood, Mia for Iron, Effram for Flame, and Malice for Ash (of course). Four legions standing together as the United Legions from here on out, no more pointless in-fighting as the charr try to forge a better future together, with the help of the other races—including the humans, like that or not.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Rytlock, Im 100% thats how they will phase him out of the story and have him leave the team. Similar to how rox did; While crecia likely will go with us to escape after rylands death and to "find herself" while traveling. Rytlock did so while working with us, perhaps crecia will become our rytlock/rox replacement since both of them likely wont be coming back.

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Rytlock is too much "adventurous guy" to become emperor.

    Is clear they setting up Efram as role of a "unificator".

    main pvp: Khel the Undead(power reaper).

  • I think Crecia is being set up to be the Khan Ur. She seems to be in charge and making the big decisions in this campaign. There will be major reorganization after the CW.
    If Rytlock survives, he will retire.
    If Ryland survives, he will join Dragon's Watch.
    I think Braham will also be leaving Dragon's Watch.
    Marjory and Kasmeer seem to already be gone. However Marjory may be interested in going to Cantha.
    Will Taimi be saved? There seems to be no progress on that story since her announcement.

  • what about if the proposed leaders here come togethers and together break and destroy the Claw of the Khan-Ur, no united legions, they are each their own, they can work together, but stay their own legion seperated from the rest, the United Legions will only show up again if their is a common thread to all the charr, bit like United Nations on our little earthly planet

  • I hope there'll be no Khan-Ur, because independent rivaling nations (Legions) is one of the things that makes Charr fun and interesting for me.

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Crecia makes a bunch of statements at the end of the episode that the Charr were nearly destroyed and that stronger leadership is needed. The ambient dialogue from other Chart in Drizzlewood advise of Crecia leading the United Legions. If there is a candidate for Khan Ur she would be it, especially if they are claiming that the Charr almost became extinct and need a new leader to rally them.

    I don't think the whole "almost became extinct" bit can be taken literally. Even if there were theaters of war elsewhere besides Drizzlewood, the charr species is huge and so is their territory. They have Ascalon, the Blood Legion Homelands to the north, and lands to the east of the Blazeridge. About the size of all of Elona in total. We only see fighting on Drizzlewood's front, and the land could not support even the majority of the charr species' numbers.

    Would have been a nice way to show fighting outside of Drizzlewood between Dominion and United Legion by having player-triggered Dominion spawns for those who have begun No Quarter or Jormag Rising in Ascalon maps... But they didn't do such so we have no clue how widespread this "charr civil war" was. But what we saw wasn't enough to risk the species.

    Most likely, Crecia was talking about the structure - half of the leaders have died, the peace accords with Flame got shaken, and so did the peace treaty with humans given the Dominion sieged human towns. But at best, Crecia's statements are about how Bangar was leading so many charr to Jormag's thrall, and would lead so many more, that it makes a huge dent in the charr population.

    Actually a large portion of charr lands are repopulate now, and I do believe the charr were almost wiped out. Now the charr are at risk of dying off in a sense, but the won't their population just took a big hit,so hard that if the charr he and go too war again again st say the humans of Ascalon in the fields of ruin the Charr will lose. WIgh the charr population is ramen it means the charr hold over the former lands bowling too the kingdom of Ascalon is gone. The don't have the numbers too hold what rug he had also the lands east of the blaze ridge mountains have no charr living in them if any at all.

  • Cynder.2509Cynder.2509 Member ✭✭✭✭

    How about the charr player character 🤷‍♂️

  • @Telwyn.1630 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Crecia makes a bunch of statements at the end of the episode that the Charr were nearly destroyed and that stronger leadership is needed. The ambient dialogue from other Chart in Drizzlewood advise of Crecia leading the United Legions. If there is a candidate for Khan Ur she would be it, especially if they are claiming that the Charr almost became extinct and need a new leader to rally them.

    I don't think the whole "almost became extinct" bit can be taken literally. Even if there were theaters of war elsewhere besides Drizzlewood, the charr species is huge and so is their territory. They have Ascalon, the Blood Legion Homelands to the north, and lands to the east of the Blazeridge. About the size of all of Elona in total. We only see fighting on Drizzlewood's front, and the land could not support even the majority of the charr species' numbers.

    Would have been a nice way to show fighting outside of Drizzlewood between Dominion and United Legion by having player-triggered Dominion spawns for those who have begun No Quarter or Jormag Rising in Ascalon maps... But they didn't do such so we have no clue how widespread this "charr civil war" was. But what we saw wasn't enough to risk the species.

    Most likely, Crecia was talking about the structure - half of the leaders have died, the peace accords with Flame got shaken, and so did the peace treaty with humans given the Dominion sieged human towns. But at best, Crecia's statements are about how Bangar was leading so many charr to Jormag's thrall, and would lead so many more, that it makes a huge dent in the charr population.

    Actually a large portion of charr lands are repopulate now, and I do believe the charr were almost wiped out. Now the charr are at risk of dying off in a sense, but the won't their population just took a big hit,so hard that if the charr he and go too war again again st say the humans of Ascalon in the fields of ruin the Charr will lose. WIgh the charr population is ramen it means the charr hold over the former lands bowling too the kingdom of Ascalon is gone. The don't have the numbers too hold what rug he had also the lands east of the blaze ridge mountains have no charr living in them if any at all.


    * cough * Maybe go over what you wrote one more time, for....clarities sake.

    Hate Is Fuel.

  • I feel like there has always been tension. Bangor lives the old school char above all. In Visions of Steel he talked about a grand Char Empire spanning all of Tyria and even invading Cantha. Bangor was setting himself up as Khan-ur. He had it set in his mind.

    I think when we end him and the Dominon and Frost Legions we will have a clear leader of the Char. Who is that. I'm betting on a char the new imparoriters Respect and listen to. I'm pretty sure it's going to be Rytlock.

  • Kossage.9072Kossage.9072 Member ✭✭✭
    edited 11:40AM

    While I could see a Khan-Ur rising for multiple reasons, even supported by Smodur's correspondence suggesting such given the current political climate, it would be a truly difficult undertaking while most legions are shaken by defections from their ranks and being torn about their alliances with other races and the superior position Bangar's propaganda had offered to the charr who had seen themselves as weakened in their current "peaceful" coexistence with other races.

    If a Khan-Ur is to ever truly rise and if the candidate(s) stick to the old rules rather than abolishing them, that individual needs to be able to prove being a direct descendant of the Khan-Ur, be a charismatic enough individual to win all four legions behind them, perform a great military feat to prove their worth as a cunning leader, and also be ferocious enough to defend their throne from would-be usurpers (that last bit in particular has led to the downfall of many would-be Khan-Urs as all post-Khan-Ur ascendants were ultimately overthrown within a few years of their rule).

    Smodur has this to say about the future of the charr, and he is right as we have seen human-hating views being spread among United Legions charr if we listen to the ambient dialogue in Drizzlewood Coast.

    That is the front line of a larger war, Tribune. Treachery runs deep throughout the legions, throughout Tyria, and leaving a single opening anywhere will allow Bangar's influence to take root.
    Even when I kill Bangar, it won't end the conflict. He showed the charr something they've wanted for a long time: power. No treaties, no alliances—just power, like in the old days.
    He told them the world I helped make turned us into weaklings. Into less than charr. I see the argument: one look at Tribune Brimstone and we all see the dangers of what happens when you spend too much time away from the warband.
    That's why the real war will only begin after Bangar's gone. We'll execute the traitors who took up arms against us, but there are still so many who will secretly harbor these beliefs, and rooting them out will be harder. Impossible, even.
    Stoneglow, Swordshadow, Greetsglory? They think killing Bangar will end the war. You and I both know that won't be enough. [...]
    Then you said I would never be Khan-Ur, as if I might need your permission to obtain it. It seems you don't appreciate our current situation.
    Until recently, we'd been getting along fine without a Khan-Ur. Each legion controlled its own people, there was friendly competition, and the Iron paw always knew what the Ash paw was up to. But Bangar changed that.
    We didn't need a Khan-Ur because we all agreed, as imperators, that a balance of power was better. And it was. Until the balance was gone. Now there are two charr: United Legions and Dominion. One will conquer the other, and one of them is in league with an Elder Dragon. If they win, it would be the end of us, I agree. That is why even when Bangar is dead, we cannot let his ideas persist. It's not enough to kill him. We need to win.
    The legions as we knew them may return someday, but until we get the charr back on track, I think you'd agree we need a strong leader with experience bringing enemies together to prevent anything like this from happening again. (Source)

    While Smodur erroneously thought he didn't need Malice's permission to become Khan-Ur, Scott McGough said in the TowerTalk charr interview that the Khan-Ur ascendant will need to be supported by all the legions and their leadership. If even one legion (or imperator) disapproves, a Khan-Ur won't rise.

    While Crecia is gaining praise from each legion for her leadership qualities, charisma, strategic mind and ferociousness based on the ambient dialogue in Drizzlewood Coast, she shouldn't become Khan-Ur for a few reasons. She's of Flame Legion heritage despite viewing herself as Blood, and the traitor Ryland (who killed Smodur, betrayed Bangar, and aligned with Jormag) is her cub.

    Iron Legion, who want revenge for Smodur's death, would never fully approve of Crecia's leadership because of these issues even if she could somehow prove (assuming that the old rule still holds) that she's a direct descendant of the Khan-Ur via her sire (who is, or was, a high-ranking shaman in the Flame Legion) or dam. That is, of course, unless Mia Kindleshot or whoever ascends to the Iron throne is willing to set aside these issues and view Crecia as competent enough to ignore the rest of the baggage that comes with her. But there would be several disagreements being raised among some Iron tribunes (I could think of Fume Brighteye, although she would no doubt challenge Mia for the Iron throne as lore states that Fume desires to become the Iron Imperator) and soldiers who would view Crecia with suspicion especially because she didn't stop Ryland when she had the chance in Ep3 and thus indirectly contributed to Smodur's assassination by allowing his assassin to live to plot his revenge.

    Ash Legion Shadow: I don't know if I have much faith in the United Legions, to be honest.
    Ash Legion Scout: Well, they've got Stoneglow. She's probably the best leader for this situation. Long as they listen to her.
    Whispers Agent: Oh, they will.
    Ash Legion Shadow: How can you be so sure?
    Whispers Agent: Would you go against Stoneglow?
    Ash Legion Scout: Not a chance. (Source)

    Aside from the charr Pact Commander, Rytlock has performed the most notable military feats out of any would-be Khan-Ur with the way he contributed to the demises of three Elder Dragons, a lich king, a Flame Imperator, and even a disgraced human god. If he's revealed to be Bangar's son in the end (as there has been some potential teasing in that direction given Bangar's abnormal interest in Rytlock's development since cubhood) and thus a direct descendant of the Khan-Ur, he basically can check two conditions to becoming Khan-Ur from the list.

    However, Rytlock is seen as less of a charr now because he's spent so much time with the other races and has adopted their mannerisms, which both Bangar and Smodur point out. Add to that the still unknown conditions of his tribunal and why his rank was reinstated afterwards, plus Ryland being his son, that he may have trouble earning the respect of all the legions, especially after he acted in such an aggressive way towards Smodur in Episodes 3 and 4. As such, something major would need to happen for all the legions to view Rytlock as the best candidate despite his accomplishments on the field, and I don't see it happening anytime soon unless we're in for some major revelations later on.

    Efram is viewed as being too soft and is even gently mocked for his attempts to be ferocious (even by allies like Malice) even though we know he does have a dangerous trigger point if you dare threaten the safety of his people and particularly his daughter. While the legions could grow to sympathize with Efram over time, handing the reins of Khan-Ur to an atoning Flame splinter group would be too soon after Gaheron and his predecessors' reign of terror.

    Besides, Efram's Flame Imperator position is far from secure as there should still be at least four tribunes and potentially a new hierophant representing evil Flame splinter groups that contest his claim for the throne. Perhaps one of these splinter groups could be led by Crecia's evil shaman sire, so the conflict for Flame throne would be personal for both Efram and Crecia while Efram would help Crecia come to terms with her troubled Flame past.

    From Iron side, we've yet to see whether Mia Kindleshot automatically ascends to the Iron throne (especially if she's revealed to be Smodur's daughter; if she isn't, we'd have to ask if Smodur has any surviving cubs out there who might want the throne by blood right) or is contested by Bhuer Goreblade, Kyranith Steelgrip, or Fume Brighteye. Regardless of who ascends to the Iron throne, they wouldn't necessarily have what it takes to become Khan-Ur so soon to their reign as the new Iron Imperator even though Fume would certainly have the ambition and some cult of following on Iron side to back herself up even though her anti-human stance might sour her towards Crecia and Malice and thus prevent her from getting those legions' support.

    Out of all the imperators, Malice actually has the best chance of becoming Khan-Ur as of this writing. She should be a direct descendant of the Khan-Ur, contributed to the capture of a rogue Blood Imperator, and ended the Renegade threat for now. She's already earned respect from Crecia, Efram and potentially Rytlock (she and Rytlock did dine together in Ghosts of Ascalon so apparently they had good diplomatic relations as they exchanged intel). If she's able to contribute to Jormag's downfall too, she has a chance to grab the mantle. The problem is that several grunts and officers among the legions view Malice as too secretive with all her double agents and moles everyone plus the surveillance devices.

    While Scott McGough's TowerTalk suggested that each legion wants the mantle of Khan-Ur and thus Malice should desire it too despite being the youngest imperator, she may not be the type to paint a target on her back by becoming a public Khan-Ur. I could see her preferring to promote someone else to the position as a puppet Khan-Ur whom she could control as a grey eminence (a la Cardinal Richelieu in France) who is the true power behind the throne. As Malice has already gained the favor of several legion leaders (and I imagine she'd win over Mia Kindleshot too as Mia is also pro-Ebonhawke Treaty, assuming that Mia ascends in Iron), it should be easy enough for her to manipulate any of the imperators who are newbies to the role compared to her.

    I do wonder if Malice's very name (well, Malice) is foreshadowing, though, unless it's supposed to be a subversion and how someone with such a nasty name is actually the most virtuous charr out there. For some reason she's let Smodur believe that he alone made the Ebonhawke Treaty happen when we know from Dougal and Ember's dialogue in Ghosts of Ascalon that actually Malice was the true driving force behind the treaty who used Almorra as the middlewoman to reach out to Jennah to set the stage for the retrieval of the Claw of the Khan-Ur while also keeping a low profile so even Ember wasn't sure if Malice was truly on the pro-treaty side.

    I wonder why Malice downplays her role in making the treaty happen unless she wants to cover both bases to keep support from both the anti-treaty and pro-treaty parties among all the legions. We also have troubling sayings about her too, such as the infamous "When Swordshadow comes for you, may she leave you alive." In post-Smodur death scene in Ep4, the Commander even outright questions Malice about her seemingly uncaring attitude about Smodur's death, which is oddly reminiscent to the Commander being worried about Smodur's ambitions in post-Bangar departure conversation in the prologue.

    Malice: This is...inconvenient, to say the least.
    Player: That's all you can say?
    Malice: Smodur and I, we've had our differences. But we always made things work. For the good of the charr. Now...
    Player: We owe him a lot. Despite everything.
    Malice: We do. And Iron will remember him a certain way. But Ash, Blood, and Flame? We'll all remember him in different ways, I'm sure.
    Player: I'm sure. (Source)

    It makes me wonder if all of this is setting up Malice for some grey morality stuff later down the line. She clearly wasn't willing to divulge that she had double agents in the Dominion until confronted about it in Ep3, and she's following the Commander's progress with a close eye (as we learn in the prologue where her dialogue changes depending on which imperator we've visited first before coming to her).

    While I adore Malice and her being among the most moral charr, I wouldn't mind to find some skeletons in her closet and see that more ruthless side where she ends up manipulating the Commander for the "good cause" and hopefully not devolve into moustache-twirling villainy. We've already seen three imperators' fall from grace, so it'd be odd if Malice, despite being the youngest imperator (and likely close to Rytlock and Crecia's age) not repeat their mistakes but in the Ash way to show us that perhaps the whole imperator system is rotten and the charr need to really drop reliance on blood relation to Khan-Ur and the whole quest for becoming Khan-Ur entirely.

    Smodur may be right about poison running deep throughout the legions, and it also supports Scott McGough's statements where the greatest threat to the charr are themselves and their constant struggle for power. No legion would willingly hand over Khan-Ur leadership to another legion (the original Khan-Ur may have only managed it because he only had to unite smaller warbands at the time rather than win over support from four powerful legions which didn't really exist until his sons became his generals and formed the High Legions).

    That is the tragedy of the charr: as long as the temptation of Khan-Ur exists, the charr will eventually tear themselves apart. As long as the Claw of the Khan-Ur exists as a symbol for a would-be ascendant, someone will always want that position no matter what, no matter how many generations pass. The only way to end the cycle of revenge, in my opinion, is to destroy the legacy of the Khan-Ur via destroying the Claw, and possibly even abolish the rank of imperator and reliance on Khan-Ur bloodline altogether so all charr officers will be equal.

    What might work is the charr legions ironically moving backwards from Roman times. The charr started as tribes who united under the first empire and then fell into autonomous states ruled by equal imperators as seen reminiscent of the division into Eastern and Western Rome, or the rule of the Tetrarchy (the Four Emperors), or even the Mongol squabbling between the Khan's sons as Julia Nardin referenced in the past. The charr need to complete the process of evolution and move towards the time that preceded the Roman Empire: the Roman Republic.

    Instead of being ruled by a single Khan-Ur (who could be overthrown anyways) or four squabbling warlord-imperators, perhaps the charr should be ruled by tribunes who could be elected to the position every four years or so. If each legion had approximately six tribunes, we could see the charr Republic's senate consisting of at least 24 equal tribunes with maybe a chairman elected for one year after which the chair has to step down and hand in the reins to the other voted chair.

    I'd love to see the imperialistic charr become a democracy where each social class had the chance to be heard via their elected tribune representative in the senate, so even scrappers, gladia and potentially even the non-charr plebeians had a voice in this new republic. Dividing the absolute power among 24 or more senators representing each legion equally (as we know there are differences in opinion even within one legion, see e.g. Fume vs. Mia on the issue of the Ebonhawke Treaty, or Makk the Silent vs. Torga Desergrave on how to handle missions) would also prevent temptation for any one senator to take over, and each viewpoint would have to be considered on equal footing rather than an imperator dictating their rule with absolute authority. We've already seen that the current United Legions don't really trust one another as revealed by various dialogues throughout Drizzlewood Coast:

    Various Flame Legion Soldier: Who cares what Efram says; I don't trust Iron Legion for a second.
    Various Flame Legion Soldier: Ash are the sneaky ones. I'm more worried about them.
    Various Flame Legion Soldier: We may be "allies" for now, but at the end of the day, I trust Flame and Flame alone. (Source)

    Ash Legion Spy: Who cares about this "allies" kitten? I'm only here 'cause it's obvious Bangar's out to protect Blood.
    Iron Legion Engineer: Bangar's out to protect Bangar. But you're right. Blood looks out for their own. I don't trust them either. (Source)

    Ash Legion Spy: Wonder how things are gonna change with Crecia running the show.
    Ash Legion Scout: Who cares? Blood'll have to figure all that out. It's their problem.
    Ash Legion Spy: And ours. Legions won't mean much when this is over. We'll have bigger stuff dividing us.
    Ash Legion Scout: Oh. Stuff like which side we fought on?
    Ash Legion Spy: Yeah. And stuff like are we alive or not. (Source)

    Iron Legion Engineer: I'm the last one in my warband who hasn't defected.
    Ash Legion Scout: When did they leave?
    Iron Legion Engineer: Little over a week ago. I know the legions are supposed to be in this together, but I feel...really alone.
    Ash Legion Scout: Being out here doesn't help. Makes everything seem emptier... Just keep moving forward. That's all we can do. (Source)

    Ash Legion Scout (1): My brother defected a couple weeks ago.
    Ash Legion Scout (2): Sorry. My sister did too. Guess there's more traitors out there than you'd think.
    Ash Legion Scout (1): That's what I thought at first. Now I'm wondering if he made the right choice. [...]
    Flame Legion Stalker (1): Who knows where Malice is half the time. Typical Ash Legion cowardice.
    Flame Legion Stalker (2): Hide in the shadows and let someone else do the fighting. Ruinbringer does the same thing.
    Flame Legion Stalker (1): Flame's not perfect, but at least we fight our own battles. They're lucky we're here to help with this mess. (Source)

    There's no feasible way to instantly make all these charr get along afterwards when suspicions, hatred and fears still run deep throughout the legions. As such, if a Khan-Ur did somehow rise in the future, it'd be on a shaky foundation as we've seen lots of charr not being okay with the United Legions stuff beyond this necessary step to temporarily unite to take down Bangar.

    Realistically we should also start to see charr being pressured by external threats in the post-Smodur death political climate, which will only make this contest for Khan-Ur position (or the charr eventually embracing an actual republic as suggested above) more difficult in the long run.

    As revealed by Malice in the prologue, the Separatists are rising in power again (which means they must have found more funding and a new charismatic leader since their White Mantle backers' fall). The Seps should have a wonderful time pointing out to Bangar's Dominion, the human population massacre at Drizzlewood Coast, and all those charr eagerly defecting from the legions to side with Jormag as "proof" that there should be no peace with beasts and the charr will betray humanity if given the chance. News of the Drizzlewood events should've reached Ebonhawke and Divinity's Reach by now, so we should start seeing severe anti-charr views rising in prominence. How will the tengu of the Dominion of Winds react to the massacre of the Quetzal in Drizzlewood Coast?

    The norn, at least, should pardon most charr for the crimes as they only judge individuals rather than entire groups (let alone legions), but I imagine they'd still be a bit wary about Jormag's growing influence among the charr especially as more and more male norn have already been falling for Jormag's temptations. How will the surviving United Legions charr leadership view norn who can no longer be fully trusted and whose defections to the cause partly contributed to the celebrated charr hero Almorra's death?

    Will the Vigil, and Ember Doomforge who wanted to kill Bangar, allow Bangar to be kept alive as a prisoner despite the crimes he committed against Almorra and the Vigil? Or will they demand him to be released to face justice in court despite the Commander and Aurene wanting to keep him alive to communicate with Jormag? We could have such juicy political drama with this and the Commander, especially if they were a Vigil member, having to make tough choices especially if their friends Laranthir and Jhavi demand Bangar's head. This might be exactly what Jormag is after: turning allies against one another as Jormag would know by now how hated Bangar is among the Vigil who cry for justice.

    We should also start to see Adelbern and his Ascalonian ghost army (empowered by Kralkatorrik and presumably Balthazar's magic leaking into the environment as it already affected Jormag and Drakkar) becoming more of a threat to the charr again with their new powers. If Adelbern is any strategist (and he should be based on his reputation), he and Duke Barradin should be leading a massive invasion of Ascalon with these empowered troops while taking advantage of the legions' current weakened state.

    All of this would force the charr to make tough choices: will they elect a temporary Khan-Ur (or abolish the old system and embrace a republic) to keep their fracturing legions together to face Adelbern and the Separatists' threats while preparing for the next moves of Ryland and the Frost Legion? Will they continue to squabble and risk annihilation? What about the growing anti-human stance among the charr as revealed by allied dialogue in Drizzlewood Coast where charr were already threatening their human allies? Will the peace hold while anti-charr sentiment grows in Ebonhawke and Divinity's Reach due to Bangar's crimes against Drizzlewood Coast humans and Vigil?

    Iron Legion Engineer: Move it, skin bag!
    Seraph Guard: We're on the same side. Show some respect!
    Iron Legion Engineer: Same side? Yeah, this time. (Source)

    I have to say I worry for the charr's future as they're more divided now than ever before as the legions are splitting apart even on the allied legions' side as many secretly harbor the old hatreds. To paraphrase Ellen Kiel's statement about Balthazar from PoF prologue: "It's a powder keg over there, and that maniac [in this case, Bangar] has already lit the fuse."

    Thanks to Bangar, the charr have come to realize the status quo has to change as they risk getting "declawed". Given the impressive number of Iron Legion defections and the above dialogue about them not respecting Seraph (despite being THE legion who had the most positive experiences working with humans in Ascalon and beyond), it seems a growing number of charr disliked the treaty but didn't defect to the Renegades out of respect for Iron leadership at the time. Things changed with Bangar's speech, and maybe with a bit of Jormag's growing influence (as there's lots of dialogue referencing charr seeing things, hearing voices, or having nightmares, and Luccia's journal confirming that she defected from our warband partly because of the whispers), however, and now there's growing unrest among the legions.

    Iron Legion Soldier: This place is starting to get to my head.
    Blood Legion Blademaster: Yeah, it's like I'm starting to get sick, but it's not just my body that aches?
    Iron Legion Soldier: Exactly! Freakin' ice energy...
    Blood Legion Blademaster: I hope it goes away soon, 'cause I hate it. (Source)

    Can a future Khan-Ur, the current imperator setup, or the potential charr republic truly go with Smodur's approach and execute the hatemongerers among the legions? If that hatred is left to fester, however, it will just lead to another catastrophe down the line, especially when powerful external powerful manipulators like Jormag (and potentially Balthazar's half-brother Menzies the Mad should he ever make an appearance) can use these growing hatreds for their own ends? How can there ever be hope for peace now that each legion has been betrayed in a worse way than they ever have been (due to defectors from each side), and how brother and sister literally fought against one another and grew to hate the other for being traitors to the charr cause? What will happen with all the imprisoned Dominion whose loyalties and potential atonement should be in question? What if the Commander and Aurene deny Bangar from both the charr and the Vigil despite the cries for his trial to answer for his crimes?

    These and many more questions the charr leaders will have to ask themselves while trying to prevent things from getting even worse while the threats of Jormag, Adelbern, and Separatists loom over them.

    While I worry for the charr, I also love the fact that the writers have such a goldmine with this present setting if they choose to embrace the complex political landscape we now see ahead of us...either in this saga or in a potential future storyline (or storylines). :)