Shadow fiend rework

Sitting and shaking my head after fighting alongside a comrade against a SB last nite I got an idea. The SB was constantly popping in and out of stealth and covering incredible distance enabling them to pewpew with insane damage and healing/cleansing with a frequency that was laughable. It was pewpew-stealth-reappear full-repeat constantly. They played with us downing me twice, if not for them being too over confident and trying to stake me the second time we never would have gotten them. After this I thought, why not give necro a minion to use for stealth? The shadow fiend already applies a blind, why not make it a stealth?It would better fit it's theme and while not having the frequency the smoke thingy or other stealth skills have it would be useful.

Because not everything needs a Stealth.Stealth is not something a Necro is known for, both thematically or in gameplay design.

Why should Necro randomly get 1 skill which gives Stealth just because yu lost to a SB which spams Stealth?

However, if yu ask for Shadow Fiend to apply Reveal, it would be a more reasonable suggestion because if it "Haunts" something, it should have "sight" of it.

@"Yasai.3549" said:Because not everything needs a Stealth.Stealth is not something a Necro is known for, both thematically or in gameplay design.

Why should Necro randomly get 1 skill which gives Stealth just because yu lost to a SB which spams Stealth?

However, if yu ask for Shadow Fiend to apply Reveal, it would be a more reasonable suggestion because if it "Haunts" something, it should have "sight" of it.

I can see where you would get that idea and take a cheap salty shot. I was explaining what caused me to think about Shadow Fiend applying stealth. I used it to apply blind in the fight which didn't work well, and I always thought that being blind meant you couldn't see. As far as reveal, that's stupid logic. Ghosts which usually have haunt attributed to them are supposedly invisible, they don't reveal other invisible things. If you want a reveal necro has a skill for that.

Shadow fiend is already one of the "better" minion (with some actual active use in game), why should ANet invest manpower in "improving" it when bone fiend and and bone minions have glaring issues?

The priority for improvement shouldn't go to skills that have already a satisfying enough level of performance/usability. And haunt, while not a meta pick, still have a high enough level of performance to see some use in game.

Beside, Stealth is not part of the necromancer's kit and ANet's devs tend to be zealous when it come to the necromancer's kit. Otherwise we wouldn't have been stuck with health points as defense and the ever growing number of boon corruptions since release. I doubt ANet's devs would be ready ready to give us something else so suddenly and I doubt even more that they would add it to the core necromancer kit (They introduced barrier, which fit their view of the necromancer's defense with PoF and core necro only got it with blood bank after what? 1 year? 2 years? While they definitely gave barrier to core engi and ele more readily despite it not really being part of their own original kit).

@"Dadnir.5038" said:Shadow fiend is already one of the "better" minion (with some actual active use in game), why should ANet invest manpower in "improving" it when bone fiend and and bone minions have glaring issues?

The priority for improvement shouldn't go to skills that have already a satisfying enough level of performance/usability. And haunt, while not a meta pick, still have a high enough level of performance to see some use in game.

Beside, Stealth is not part of the necromancer's kit and ANet's devs tend to be zealous when it come to the necromancer's kit. Otherwise we wouldn't have been stuck with health points as defense and the ever growing number of boon corruptions since release. I doubt ANet's devs would be ready ready to give us something else so suddenly and I doubt even more that they would add it to the core necromancer kit (They introduced barrier, which fit their view of the necromancer's defense with PoF and core necro only got it with blood bank after what? 1 year? 2 years? While they definitely gave barrier to core engi and ele more readily despite it not really being part of their own original kit).

They probably thought that they should make barrier a core engi thing, too, to increase the synergy of the reworked scrapper with the core elements.Which is also probably the reason why they added the explosion tag to hammer 2 (which is still pretty weird thematically.... there were better fitting skills in hammer for that thematically (rocket charge), but at least it works well mechanically).

I agree that stealth most likely won't become a necromancer thing soon. If necromancer gets stealth at all (which I doubt), then it will be part of a new e-spec. Which could result in core necromancer getting stealth to increase synergy, just like what happened with scrapper. But in my opinion, necromancer will most likely get a bruiser spec next (they already have dps with reaper and support with scourge), which is not something I would envision a "stealth necromancer" to be.

@"Kodama.6453" said:But in my opinion, necromancer will most likely get a bruiser spec next (they already have dps with reaper and support with scourge), which is not something I would envision a "stealth necromancer" to be.

The necromancer's main mechanism make it a bruiser in itself. There is not much that ANet can add to what already exist without breaking things. The main mechanism is bound to continue giving variations of health pool oriented defense mechanisms (due to the existence of unholy sanctuary).

Honestly, despite it's dps oriented traits, the reaper is probably what will be the closest thing to a bruiser e-spec that the necromancer will have. From my point of view, the following e-specs will logically either focus on condition manipulation (drawing, sending back and self-ailment) or minions. Which mean more of a "backline caster" or a "mid-range caster" gameplay than a true "bruiser" gameplay.

We most likely won't see the fast paced gameplay e-specs fading in and out of combat with high mobility or stealth that most players desperately want for the necromancer.

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@"Kodama.6453" said:But in my opinion, necromancer will most likely get a bruiser spec next (they already have dps with reaper and support with scourge), which is not something I would envision a "stealth necromancer" to be.

I think they might bring a bruiser spec for necromancer especially because of the changes they made to reaper over the time.

Reaper was way more "bruiser-ish" in the past, with damage reduction traits, better shroud durability earlier (before they introduced the faster life force depletion) and such.Over time, they changed reaper more and more into the dps role. For example, they reworked cold shoulder from a damage reduction for the reaper to a damage modifier instead.

Then there is the latest addition to the necromancer traits: blood bank. This looks like a great trait for a future bruiser elite spec focused on lifesteal to have synergy with.Just because the core is already having bruiser aspects does not mean there can't be a bruiser elite spec, too.

Guardian has already been pretty supportive in core with lots of group boons and healing. They still added firebrand as a support elite spec on top.Warrior has already been bruiser-ish, yet they still added spellbreaker as a bruiser spec.

Necro don't need stealth.. more lockdown would be nice though to cover for their crappy mobility.Or give them better mobility through shadow magic in their next spec, a spec based off Necromancer/Assassins in Gw1 would be pretty sweet.

@"Kodama.6453" said:I think they might bring a bruiser spec for necromancer especially because of the changes they made to reaper over the time.

Reaper was way more "bruiser-ish" in the past, with damage reduction traits, better shroud durability earlier (before they introduced the faster life force depletion) and such.Over time, they changed reaper more and more into the dps role. For example, they reworked cold shoulder from a damage reduction for the reaper to a damage modifier instead.

Let's not fool ourself, the original reaper's survivability in shroud came from the soul reaping traitline. The change to cold shoulder from a defensive to an offensive trait didn't impact much the necromancer's survivability. The reaper gained more sustain throught the reaper traitline to compensate for the losses.

Then there is the latest addition to the necromancer traits: blood bank. This looks like a great trait for a future bruiser elite spec focused on lifesteal to have synergy with.Just because the core is already having bruiser aspects does not mean there can't be a bruiser elite spec, too.

You can be sure of one thing, ANet won't add more strength to the necromancer's life stealing. It's kept low because ANet's devs fear that it could be used like it was used in GW by the ranger touch.

Look, if soul eater (5% of your damage converted into health), augury of death (min 125 health per foe struck by your shouts, 125+39=164 since you would take BM) and blighter boon (170 health per boon generated by the necromancer) don't already feed into the fantasy of making use of blood bank as a basis for an e-spec bruiser then nothing that ANet will produce will. Heck! You even have rise on the reaper to have an extra 33% damage reduction on top of protection and/or shroud natural damage reduction, without even talking about the 20% damage reduction from infusing terror. With enough expertise you could even have perma weakness up on 5 foes thanks to _"You are all weaklings!". Almost every single thing that the necromancer's kit have for survivability, the reaper have it in it's kit. The only things it doesn't have is extra toughness and protection which you can have permanently through death magic.

The reaper is definitely a bruiser more than a dps. A dps is supposed to be low on defense which the reaper isn't. In fact the reaper's defense isn't lower than the necromancer's, it's just that players tend to use it in more glassy builds than they do for the core necromancer. The argument that the survivability is lower than core necromancer due to the fact that it's a melee e-spec, in fact, add even more to the fact that this is a bruiser.

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@"Kodama.6453" said:I think they might bring a bruiser spec for necromancer especially because of the changes they made to reaper over the time.

Reaper was way more "bruiser-ish" in the past, with damage reduction traits, better shroud durability earlier (before they introduced the faster life force depletion) and such.Over time, they changed reaper more and more into the dps role. For example, they reworked cold shoulder from a damage reduction for the reaper to a damage modifier instead.

Then there is the latest addition to the necromancer traits: blood bank. This looks like a great trait for a future bruiser elite spec focused on lifesteal to have synergy with.Just because the core is already having bruiser aspects does not mean there can't be a bruiser elite spec, too.

Holosmith is a dps spec, not a bruiser (scrapper is engis bruiser spec), yet it also has alot of defense and survivability in the kit, even if not on the level of scrapper.Trait for damage reduction in photon forge, healing for heat loss, damage reduction and blocks from utility skills....

These defensive mechanics are not there to make it a bruiser, they are there for holosmith to be able to function as a melee damage dealer. You can't deal damage if you are killed immediately, so you get some damage reduction and such to keep you alive while you do your job, but without making you an actual tank.

In league of legends terms, holosmith is a skirmisher.And I think they made changes to reaper to basically move them in that same direction. They get survivability to be able to be a melee damage dealer in reaper's shroud, but their main job is still to be a dps spec.

And I think they definitely can improve necromancer's lifesteal, if they are no longer bound to the death shroud, which a new elite spec could accomplish.

Not a fan of stealth on Necro.

1. Stealth can become a complicated mechanic involving skills, fields, finishers, and traits. To do stealth as a robust mechanic may take more than one gimmicky skill so I prefer not to introduce it.
2. Placing a stealth skill on an AI may not be the wisest choice of location. Stealth was discussed in the past by simply changing one of the wells' fields to smoke.
3. Necro has several skills that damage through, and counter, stealth. Not comfortable risking having these removed in compensation for stealth.

@"Kodama.6453" said:And I think they definitely can improve necromancer's lifesteal, if they are no longer bound to the death shroud, which a new elite spec could accomplish.

So you expect a reaper without a shroud as a bruiser?

Any e-spec of the necromancer is bound to have a "shroud" and this "shroud" is bound to have an inate defensive component made of "health point". Whatever happen, a necromancer e-spec without a "traditional" shroud is bound to have lower survivability than an e-spec with a "traditional" shroud. And it's especially true if it's reliant on stealing life.

And even if, to support that, this e-spec had access to stealth, the necromancer's inate mobility and design wouldn't allow the player to take advantage of this mechanism and it wouldn't make it a bruiser.

Note that I'm bringing back stealth there because I don't want to take another ban for derailing a thread even if it's the flow of thread that lead to that. I hope mister moderator understand ;)