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Instead Of Nerfing Firebrand We Buff Other Professions

Mellow.7409Mellow.7409 Member ✭✭

Nerfs is not fun for anyone (glances at crowd control damage as a Warrior), why not buff underperforming professions instead?

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  • Thats not the anet way

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Im hoping for more alac/quickness specs with new elite specs. Or scrapper could get it.

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 28, 2020

    @Nephalem.8921 said:
    Im hoping for more alac/quickness specs with new elite specs. Or scrapper could get it.

    Next classes need to be more selffish :\ more designed similiar to gw1 stuff.
    On WvW a large group can already have perma alicirty and very close to perm,a quickness :\

    If theres a nerf needs to be to boon overall to avoid some boons not stacking or stacking less.

    This way FB can stay as it is w/o nerfs:

    Slayers [XD] NSP Guild
    Yao Chen Herald/Ventari
    Ying Wuxian Renegade/Demon

  • @Mellow.7409 said:

    why not buff underperforming professions instead?
    In case u dont understand:
    1. Anet doesnt buff
    2. Others arent underperforming... FB is overperforming
    3. Powercreep

  • @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Arcaniaxs.4519 said:

    @Mellow.7409 said:

    why not buff underperforming professions instead?
    In case u dont understand:
    1. Anet doesnt buff
    2. Others arent underperforming... FB is overperforming
    3. Powercreep

    Heard that when Chronos were the support meta. And now we're in a similar situation, only the professions have changed. Somehow i don't think that Anet's method of dealing with that one helped at all.

    In the end, having more choice is better, not worse.

    And no, having more support choices will not result in powercreep. You don't stack support the same way you'd do with dps.

    Supports buff dps thereby power creep anet has to nerf fb or it will keep carrying ppl i rather see the go for you bring your own boons

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 28, 2020

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:
    Supports buff dps thereby power creep anet has to nerf fb or it will keep carrying ppl i rather see the go for you bring your own boons

    Keeping support on the level it is now, but with more alternatives, is not powercreep. Suppport as it is now is not powercreep either - it was at that level for a long time already even before PoF happened. All that changed is the class selection for support, not its overall quality. You may not want it to be so, might prefer it nerfed, but at least do not try to misrepresent things.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    +1 from me, nerfs never solve anything. Buffing everyone to be where they should be is how it should of been, the only time a nerf is needed is when one skill one shots someone from full health. (Unless running full glass canon then you get what you get.) Bring everyone up to where they should be, Firebrand/alacrigade has too much healing and bennefits? Bring the other healers to their level and give them the tools needed to compete. Or continue down the path of "nerf everything, until the game is unfun to play and clunky to use."

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 29, 2020

    I do think nerfs are an incredibly valuable tool which gets too much of a bad rep, and always just (over)buffing things to compete with overperforming things can quite well kill a game in the long run.

    Old Chrono for example, doing alone what Firebrand + Renegade do now for example absolutely needed to be nerfed, as buffing every other support to be able to provide all boons, solo CC breakbars, boon strip, ad pulls, skips etc. was just not an option without massively powercreeping the game and making everything feel samey in the fact that everything can do everything at once.

    Neither Firebrand nor Renegade nor current Chrono nor Druid are at that point atm though.

    The issues are just that nothing else can compete in those slots due just those professions having access to vital boons like Quickness and Alacrity, or in the case of Raids 10 man Target Caps on equally necessary things like Might.

    If you removed Quickness and Alacrity from the game back then, old Chrono (providing both of those insane boons at once) would have still been godlike in all the Utility it provided.
    If you removed Quickness and Alacrity from the game now, there wouldn't really be much reason to take any of the current supports exclusively, and things like Tempest (if given Quickness, or Quickness being taken out of the equation) is more than able to compete with FB for example.

    Anet just needs to finally recognise how incredibly powerful these boons are, and that every group is used to and will want to have 100% group wide uptime of them.
    As long as that is the case, the only few profession which are capable of doing so will be the only meta picks for obvious reasons.

    If there are still major disparities after that is addressed, that can be fixed then.
    Before that, I don't see any point in hacking away at the sole Quickness and Alacrity providers for being meta, since as long as they are the sole Quickness and Alacrity providers they always will be, unless maybe if they essentially destroy the professions to a point where they do nothing but those boons, in which case maybe just taking another DPS or stacking self-buffers like Reaper will be superior - which would be far from ideal.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Heal/Support FB isn't the problem Chrono back in the days were much much more powerful they done nearly everything CC, quickness, alacrity and with SoI they could copy all boons for everyone. Fun fact why SoI was nerfed into the ground from my perspective was you could give boons into the minutes by copying multiply times with the mistlock skill reset which they finally resolved correctly with the new 100er fractal boon removal at start.(about 90% summoned will still stay)

    The problem ATM is cFB can do more dmg when the fight is a bit longer even in the old fractals which results in with the new 100 cm being the only meta dps build xD

    Basically you have 4 FBs and one Renegade which is arguably the worst fractal meta we ever had. True cFB is overpowered that doesn't mean that other builds have not their problems in the new fractal. Yes I know you could play condi weaver but it the most challenging rota I know(at last the SC build) while the fractal forgives nearly nothing.

    First you noticed we don't have a BS here ? Because its useless because the banners are always on the wrong spot(because the boss moves away from it) also they are after the last nerf to the banners only taken with because of reasons.

    For DPS build and weapons in general the idea how they mostly work is the the presumption that the enemy staying still or at last stay in range. Build with out range or extreme fast rota will have a significant drop in dps when confronted with a moving target. Condi is good here because the target still gets dmg while moving around

    e.g if condi staff weaver would be still a thing it would work very well here but it got nerfed to the ground

    I must also say in theory there is another way to do this is by using high mobility which are split in 2 options:
    A) condi thief
    B) a lot of super speed with Tempest and Rev

  • Raizel Silverius.6430Raizel Silverius.6430 Member ✭✭
    edited September 29, 2020

    @Mellow.7409 said:
    Nerfs is not fun for anyone (glances at crowd control damage as a Warrior), why not buff underperforming professions instead?

    PoF gave warrior full counter. Now its full tickle! Nice Elite Spec :disappointed:
    LOOK AT MY 6 DAMAGE FROM FULL COUNTER!

  • @Asum.4960 said:
    I do think nerfs are an incredibly valuable tool which gets too much of a bad rep, and always just (over)buffing things to compete with overperforming things can quite well kill a game in the long run.

    Old Chrono for example, doing alone what Firebrand + Renegade do now for example absolutely needed to be nerfed

    You needed two chronos for the same result, though. Not one. The amount of support slots didn't change at all. It's just more clunky now, because the first and second support slot are no longer exchangeable.

    If you removed Quickness and Alacrity from the game back then, old Chrono (providing both of those insane boons at once) would have still been godlike in all the Utility it provided.

    Actually, no, it was being taken primarily for those two boons. Remember, that the infamous Chaos Chrono was present for only a very short time, and only near the end of chrono domination. There were times when Chrono didn't really offer much beyond Alacrity and Quickness, but was still taken, because those two boons were enough.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 29, 2020

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    I do think nerfs are an incredibly valuable tool which gets too much of a bad rep, and always just (over)buffing things to compete with overperforming things can quite well kill a game in the long run.

    Old Chrono for example, doing alone what Firebrand + Renegade do now for example absolutely needed to be nerfed

    You needed two chronos for the same result, though. Not one. The amount of support slots didn't change at all. It's just more clunky now, because the first and second support slot are no longer exchangeable.

    Nope. What QFB + Alacrigade + BS + 2 DPS no heal Fractal runs are now used to be Chrono + BS + 3 DPS, with Chrono doing all the boons, CC, boon strip etc. that FB+Ren do now combined, in addition to portal blink skips and focus pulls/ad control.

    As for both Raids and Fractals, nerfing Chrono essentially doubled the amount of viable support specs, which ofc is more "clunky" if you like to think that way.
    Just needing one player on one brokenly OP support Spec is ofc more simplistic to look for than if you have to have a variety of specs covering all aspects together, but imo the latter is a lot more healthy for the game.

    If you removed Quickness and Alacrity from the game back then, old Chrono (providing both of those insane boons at once) would have still been godlike in all the Utility it provided.

    Actually, no, it was being taken primarily for those two boons. Remember, that the infamous Chaos Chrono was present for only a very short time, and only near the end of chrono domination. There were times when Chrono didn't really offer much beyond Alacrity and Quickness, but was still taken, because those two boons were enough.

    Ofc it was primarily used for those boons, but frankly without all the ad control, boon stripping, skipping and primarily it's ability to almost single-handedly break breakbars with old double Humility, tanking (in raids) as well as earlier the group Distort, people would have been lost at the time.
    I think very few people realised how utterly broken Chrono used to be, even beyond the Chaos do all boons in the game thing.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • @Raizel Silverius.6430 said:

    @Mellow.7409 said:
    Nerfs is not fun for anyone (glances at crowd control damage as a Warrior), why not buff underperforming professions instead?

    PoF gave warrior full counter. Now its full tickle! Nice Elite Spec :disappointed:
    LOOK AT MY 6 DAMAGE FROM FULL COUNTER!

    I agree all warrior spec is underperforming, like let's say in PVE no banner do people still want warrior? probably no.

  • @DKRathalos.9625 said:

    @Raizel Silverius.6430 said:

    @Mellow.7409 said:
    Nerfs is not fun for anyone (glances at crowd control damage as a Warrior), why not buff underperforming professions instead?

    PoF gave warrior full counter. Now its full tickle! Nice Elite Spec :disappointed:
    LOOK AT MY 6 DAMAGE FROM FULL COUNTER!

    I agree all warrior spec is underperforming, like let's say in PVE no banner do people still want warrior? probably no.

    Same with druid no spirits then ppl rather pick another class like herald

  • Raizel Silverius.6430Raizel Silverius.6430 Member ✭✭
    edited September 30, 2020

    @DKRathalos.9625 said:
    I agree all warrior spec is underperforming, like let's say in PVE no banner do people still want warrior? probably no.

    This actually happened when they disabled banners from warriors during that banner bug in OW (I still want to think of it as a Lion's Arch Community Effort Art). Why bring a warrior that does like half of a burst of a META DPS class when you can bring another META DPS class in fractals.

    For Raids, the 200 x 4 stat lost on warrior (100 x 4 for the rest) is too much (Power, Prec, Fero, Condi damage) that some static groups back then actually removed warrior from the line up and just bring another DPS to fill in the gap.

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:
    Same with druid no spirits then ppl rather pick another class like herald

    Yup! Pretty sure this will happen. Heck some groups already ditched druid for Healbrand and just bring a SLB that bring frost spirit on fractals and raids. Heck some just bring a Tempest Healer / Heal Ren on some occasion while SLB bringing the spirits.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:
    Supports buff dps thereby power creep anet has to nerf fb or it will keep carrying ppl i rather see the go for you bring your own boons

    Keeping support on the level it is now, but with more alternatives, is not powercreep. Suppport as it is now is not powercreep either - it was at that level for a long time already even before PoF happened. All that changed is the class selection for support, not its overall quality. You may not want it to be so, might prefer it nerfed, but at least do not try to misrepresent things.

    We'll that depends how much they buff support.

    Also the question that should be asked is how close people want the gap to be

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 30, 2020

    @DKRathalos.9625 said:

    @Raizel Silverius.6430 said:

    @Mellow.7409 said:
    Nerfs is not fun for anyone (glances at crowd control damage as a Warrior), why not buff underperforming professions instead?

    PoF gave warrior full counter. Now its full tickle! Nice Elite Spec :disappointed:
    LOOK AT MY 6 DAMAGE FROM FULL COUNTER!

    I agree all warrior spec is underperforming, like let's say in PVE no banner do people still want warrior? probably no.

    Both power and condi Berserker are pretty competitive DPS's at ~37k DPS each, and both of them only give up about ~3k DPS to provide massive group damage boosts with Banners. What warrior provides is actually pretty insane, and always has been. Few things, if any, have been as consistently meta as BS/Warrior across all of endgame/group content, from the early dungeon days to Fractals, Raids and Strikes.

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:

    @DKRathalos.9625 said:

    @Raizel Silverius.6430 said:

    @Mellow.7409 said:
    Nerfs is not fun for anyone (glances at crowd control damage as a Warrior), why not buff underperforming professions instead?

    PoF gave warrior full counter. Now its full tickle! Nice Elite Spec :disappointed:
    LOOK AT MY 6 DAMAGE FROM FULL COUNTER!

    I agree all warrior spec is underperforming, like let's say in PVE no banner do people still want warrior? probably no.

    Same with druid no spirits then ppl rather pick another class like herald

    Druid is the only viable solo healer with 10 man Might stacking. For 2 healer setups you might be right, but for one heal groups there is no comparable alternative. 25 Might stacks for 10 people at the cost of one Squad slot, which can also solo heal, provide a variety of utility (Spirit res, entangle ad control) and can also tank all the while is just insane value, even beyond the 10 man spirit buffs and 5 man spotter.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 30, 2020

    Nerfs aren't fun? Oh ... so steamrolling everything with faceroll skills is?

    Buffs aren't the barrel of laughs you think it would be either. I mean, this game is ALREADY at the threshold of what most people would call not challenging ... but buffs, thumbs up? I don't think so. I mean, at this point really, just give everyone the I WIN buttons and be done with it if we want to push for buffs over nerfs.

    If you're on a highway and roadrunner goes "beep beep"
    Just step aside or you might end up in a heap

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 30, 2020

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Buffs aren't the barrel of laughs you think it would be either. I mean, this game is ALREADY at the threshold of what most people would call not challenging

    Nah, it is that way only for a relatively small minority. Surprisingly enough, a lot of players still find this game to be hard.
    Yes, the fact that the very same content can be both laughably easy and prohibitively hard, depending on which part of the sommunity you ask, is one of the serious problems of this game.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Yea don't worry dude Firebrand is the single best spec probably ever put into the game asides from Chronomancer, I think we should buff everything to its level. That would make everything very fun, not having to try at all ever.

    I'm a well known nobody.
    Former member of [MnF], [DnT], [dP], and [Hg]. Winner of the 2018 ERP Tournament.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    My personal thoughts on whats likely going to happen based on how they view elite specs now and are slowly forcing them into specific roles.

    Realistically they will have to nerf firebrand into the dirt (ok maybe not into the dirt but expect some heavy reductions would be my rough guess) with the upcoming specs
    Reason number 1
    Firebrand does way too many different task all in one go. It heals good, it boons good, it tanks good, its good dps, and good utility in terms of projectile hate, stability, and hard blocks.
    Reason number 2
    To it will be darn near impossible to fit a new elite that outperforms firebrand in anyway if they dont nerf it hard in at least a few aspects because it already does every thing so good. To make something that people will want in groups or want to play over the current existing firebrand would require an unholy amount of power creep.

    The proper way to do things would be to rework a lot of firebrands kit to limit it to maybe one or two things out of the following
    Good tank
    Good dps
    Good boon / utility support
    Good healer

    Next we need to look at the things firebrand does well and share it to some of the other classes to bring them back into the meta now that their roles have been more so forced int the support aspect.
    Aka Druid, Tempest, and to some extent Chrono.

    There is no reason why Quick and heal brand should be the only go too required staples in support roles every time i look for some end game content in LFG and the obvious reason are already called out above it just does a lot of everything while Druid,Tempest, and Chrono have limits that don't allow them to shine as hard in all those roles.

    I would like to open the LFG and see looking for healer or boon support which implies many options are available across multiple professions rather than people zeroing in on heal brand or quick brand all the darn time. Its kind of upsetting to be waiting to do content when you have 4/5 players or 9/10 players and you are waiting for the group to find a heal or quick brand and you see that 5 other groups are also looking for the same thing.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    Firebrand does way too many different task all in one go. It heals good, it boons good, it tanks good, its good dps, and good utility in terms of projectile hate, stability, and hard blocks.

    No, it can't do all of those things "all in one go". Sure, it's possible for FB to do all that, but not in one build.

    To it will be darn near impossible to fit a new elite that outperforms firebrand in anyway if they dont nerf it hard in at least a few aspects because it already does every thing so good. To make something that people will want in groups or want to play over the current existing firebrand would require an unholy amount of power creep.

    That's actually a fair point. Yes, currently there's simply no concept space left for future Guardian especs. Everything that can be done, one of the already existing specs can already do, and do well. With the possible exception of the new spec having access to Alacrity, perhaps.

    Next we need to look at the things firebrand does well and share it to some of the other classes to bring them back into the meta now that their roles have been more so forced int the support aspect.
    Aka Druid, Tempest, and to some extent Chrono.

    Yes, we do need more choices for the support role, and those choices need to be more balanced compared to each other, without one of them being visibly superior.

    I would like to open the LFG and see looking for healer or boon support which implies many options are available across multiple professions rather than people zeroing in on heal brand or quick brand all the darn time. Its kind of upsetting to be waiting to do content when you have 4/5 players or 9/10 players and you are waiting for the group to find a heal or quick brand and you see that 5 other groups are also looking for the same thing.

    Agreed. Having alternative choices for a role slot in a party/squad makes it easier and faster to get through the group forming phase to an actual content. I believe it should be desirable to make people play the game more, instead of wasting time on some organizational minigames.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 5, 2020

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    Firebrand does way too many different task all in one go. It heals good, it boons good, it tanks good, its good dps, and good utility in terms of projectile hate, stability, and hard blocks.

    No, it can't do all of those things "all in one go". Sure, it's possible for FB to do all that, but not in one build.

    To it will be darn near impossible to fit a new elite that outperforms firebrand in anyway if they dont nerf it hard in at least a few aspects because it already does every thing so good. To make something that people will want in groups or want to play over the current existing firebrand would require an unholy amount of power creep.

    That's actually a fair point. Yes, currently there's simply no concept space left for future Guardian especs. Everything that can be done, one of the already existing specs can already do, and do well. With the possible exception of the new spec having access to Alacrity, perhaps.

    I honestly don't get that argument, never have.
    Why can't Guardian have two viable specs doing the same thing? Why did condi Reaper needed to be nerfed "to make room" for Scourge? Why can't power DPS Spellbreaker be good, as well as power DPS Berserker, etc.? Just because they operate on the same profession framework? What's wrong with more variety?
    I for example quite enjoyed power Spellbreaker when it was still good, and really don't enjoy Power Berserker at all. Why does it matter that they share the same core profession? Why can there ever be only one viable spec for some things? Isn't that exactly the issue, too little variety?

    Then, why on the other hand is Elementalist completely fine with having both Tempest and Weaver having 38k+ both condi and power DPS specs?

    It seems so arbitrary what the community (and Anet) decides what profession can or can't have multiple specs filling a certain role in different ways, appealing to different playstyles and players.

    Ofc Guardian can have another condi DPS or support spec in addition to Firebrand (or power DPS in addition to DH), just doing things differently, appealing to a different theme/fantasy and/or playstyle.
    Ofc Necro can have another condi spec playing completely differently than Scourge with the Shades, without having to destroy Scourge, or a power DPS that plays completely different to Reaper and it's Shroud, without Reaper having to go into the trash can.
    Ofc Ranger can have another support or DPS spec in addition to Druid or Soulbeast, without having to ruin those, etc.

    What exactly is the issue with that?
    Why does the game need to be so dumbed-down that certain Professions are only allowed one viable clearly telegraphed role per spec which has to be unique in the profession? Give people choices.

    It's not like condi FB with it's ~37k DPS, HFB with the support it provides or pDH with it's 35k DPS are outragously overpowered so that no new Spec with a different playstyle could compete with them on that profession, in that role.

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    I would like to open the LFG and see looking for healer or boon support which implies many options are available across multiple professions rather than people zeroing in on heal brand or quick brand all the darn time. Its kind of upsetting to be waiting to do content when you have 4/5 players or 9/10 players and you are waiting for the group to find a heal or quick brand and you see that 5 other groups are also looking for the same thing.

    Here's the thing, as said again and again, it doesn't matter how much you destroy Druid as a healer, as long as it's the only 10 man healer and Might generator + unique 10 man damage buffs, it will always stay the only meta solo Raid healer - unless something is buffed to have that special capability as well.

    It doesn't matter how much you destroy Firebrand as support, as long as it's the only Quickness provider that slots into Renegade, it will always stay the only meta Fractal support - unless something is buffed to have that capability as well.

    It's either that, or 10 man Target Caps and Quickness are removed from the game altogether.

    It's not like Tempest pales in comparison to Firebrand in terms of healing and boon support (except for crucially Quickness) and isn't more than capable of clearing all endgame content in that capacity, it just doesn't have Quickness, for which you would then still need a Quickbrand or Chrono. So if you do want a heal, why not always take the whole package in HFB and a full DPS in the other slot instead?
    People already run no heal runs with Quickbrand. All you achieve by nerfing support Firebrand into the ground is push more people into Quickbrand.
    If you destroy Quickbrand as well, then people just use boon Chrono again, and if you destroy that too, stack power Chronos or Reaper's providing Quickness for themselves.
    You aren't increasing variety with such nerfs but quite the opposite, because that's not the issue here.

    People run Firebrand not because it's OP and needs nerfs, but because it's the best and kind of only source of group Quickness atm, and you got to have Quickness.
    If you gave support Tempest the ability to provide group Quickness, it would be viable over night for that 5 man support slot.
    If you removed Quickness from Firebrand, it wouldn't be looked at anymore and discarded like all the other non Quickness supports.

    What the game needs is more Quickness (and Alacrity) options, and yes, that means "buffing" other professions by giving them that capability.
    Just because you destroy Healbrand doesn't suddenly mean people won't want Quickness anymore and suddenly run all the non-Quickness supports like Tempest, Scourge, Scrapper etc.

    TL:DR
    If there is only one spec for a role that everybody wants, everybody taking it doesn't mean it's OP, nor will nerfing it suddenly make other specs which don't fit into that role viable for that role. You need to give other specs the ability to fill that role.
    If there is still discrepancy then, then you can look at buff's and nerfs.

    The issue with support variety is not Firebrand itself, it's Quickness availability. And the same goes for Renegade and Alacrity (which fsr though seems to coast by completely under the radar as only viable spec for that role, while imo actually being a bigger outlier).

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Druid cant heal 10 but can provide might for 10 but its heals isnt really very strong and might is something other classes except mesmer can grant

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 5, 2020

    @Asum.4960 said:
    I honestly don't get that argument, never have.
    Why can't Guardian have two viable specs doing the same thing?

    It can, but, no matter how you end up balancing stuff, one of those options will end up being better.

    It's okay to have some overlap, but having two especs that are doing exactly the same things, or one espec that is doing only a part of what another espec is already doing (and doing well) is just wasting the espec potential. You will only end up with duplicating the issue of the core classes, where they aren't used for anything because anything they can do, one of their especs can do better.

    Why did condi Reaper needed to be nerfed "to make room" for Scourge?

    That was indeed unnecessary, considering that Scourge is apparently not considered to be a cDPS espec, but a support one. And, because Reaper as power dps started to become useful only very recently, but when that condi nerf happened, it was still very, very bad. Still, some division between especs is not a bad thing.

    Then, why on the other hand is Elementalist completely fine with having both Tempest and Weaver having 38k+ both condi and power DPS specs?

    That's again, only a recent thing, and a sideeffect of massive Weaver nerfs, and then devs trying to fix them somehow. Remember, that for a long time, after Weaver was introduced, Tempest's usefulness as a dps spec went down hard, and for a time it got reduced to a secondary heal role only.
    It's also a sideffect of dps being the primary function of elementalist as a whole, something that cannot be easily separated from it (which is, btw, a limitation of espec approach).

    Here's the thing, as said again and again, it doesn't matter how much you destroy Druid as a healer, as long as it's the only 10 man healer and Might generator + unique 10 man damage buffs, it will always stay the only meta solo Raid healer - unless something is buffed to have that special capability as well.

    It doesn't matter how much you destroy Firebrand as support, as long as it's the only Quickness provider that slots into Renegade, it will always stay the only meta Fractal support - unless something is buffed to have that capability as well.

    It's either that, or 10 man Target Caps and Quickness are removed from the game altogether.

    It's not like Tempest pales in comparison to Firebrand in terms of healing and boon support (except for crucially Quickness) and isn't more than capable of clearing all endgame content in that capacity, it just doesn't have Quickness, for which you would then still need a Quickbrand or Chrono. So if you do want a heal, why not always take the whole package in HFB and a full DPS in the other slot instead?
    People already run no heal runs with Quickbrand. All you achieve by nerfing support Firebrand into the ground is push more people into Quickbrand.
    If you destroy Quickbrand as well, then people just use boon Chrono again, and if you destroy that too, stack power Chronos or Reaper's providing Quickness for themselves.
    You aren't increasing variety with such nerfs but quite the opposite, because that's not the issue here.

    Yes. We need more valid options for group slots. Not less. And the more those options are easily exchangeable, the better.

    If there is only one spec for a role that everybody wants, everybody taking it doesn't mean it's OP, nor will nerfing it suddenly make other specs which don't fit into that role viable for that role. You need to give other specs the ability to fill that role.

    That's exactly what some of us were saying when everyone was calling for Chrono nerfs. In the end, Chrono got indeed nerfed, but got only replaced after FB/Alaren pair got buffed to the point of being able to pick up the slack. And now, predictably, people are calling for FB nerfs, showing that the community as a whole doesn't learn all that well with past mistakes.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 5, 2020

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    That's exactly what some of us were saying when everyone was calling for Chrono nerfs. In the end, Chrono got indeed nerfed, but got only replaced after FB/Alaren pair got buffed to the point of being able to pick up the slack. And now, predictably, people are calling for FB nerfs, showing that the community as a whole doesn't learn all that well with past mistakes.

    It's a very different situation though. Chrono was indeed broken, being able to do all boons, all CC, all boon strip, all tanking, all skips, all ad control etc. in one spec all at once, which meant nothing could ever compete with Chrono unless it was nerfed, or the game would have to be insanely powercrept with every support just doing literally everything as well.

    Neither Firebrand nor Renegade are in that same position now, and plenty other specs could fairly easily compete, if it just wasn't for the lack of Quickness/Alacrity availability.

    Give support Tempest Quickness and it can compete quite easily with support FB, give support Scourge Alacrity and it can compete with Renegade (ish, Renegade is actually a pretty crazy kit in terms of high damage, Alacrity, massive CC, boon strip/stab/projectile defense as well as perma group Prot and unique damage increasing buffs like Assassins Presence and Soulcleave, which acts as sustain tool on top of that, and imo actually the more powerful half of the Firebrigade).

    Neither of them on their own is as irreplaceably godlike as old Chrono used to be though.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    I honestly don't get that argument, never have.
    Why can't Guardian have two viable specs doing the same thing?

    It can, but, no matter how you end up balancing stuff, one of those options will end up being better.

    It's okay to have some overlap, but having two especs that are doing exactly the same things, or one espec that is doing only a part of what another espec is already doing (and doing well) is just wasting the espec potential. You will only end up with duplicating the issue of the core classes, where they aren't used for anything because anything they can do, one of their especs can do better.

    Ofc one will always be the best at something, but just like now people accept various different DPS Professions even though one is technically the best, so it too would be completely fine to have multiple same viable roles within one Profession, as long as they are reasonably close.

    If for example the previously mentioned Power Spellbreaker still did 36k DPS compared to Berserkers 37k DPS, I would still play SPB over Berserker without question simply bc I like the gameplay/rotation a lot more. As long as the difference is not detrimental, like SPB after the unnecessary nerfs a while ago currently being 7k DPS behind Berserker, I don't see any issue with multiple Especs on a profession being able to fill the same role in different ways.

    So too is there is plenty room on Guard for new specs, without the need to obliterate either DH or FB.

    Unless the designers are creatively bankrupt, there are plenty ways of drastically differentiating Elite specs gameplay wise, even if they fill the same role in a group.

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:
    Druid cant heal 10 but can provide might for 10 but its heals isnt really very strong and might is something other classes except mesmer can grant

    Druid can heal enough to keep a 10 man Squad alive on it's own, while generating Might for 10 people and giving out unique buffs (while also being able to tank).
    That's a value package nothing else can compete with.
    Yes, other classes can give might too, but either only 5 man and/or without unique buffs, which means you need double the support slots for likely lower effect.
    The healing itself you actually need with half decent player's is minimal, and pretty much all healers in GW2 massively overheal.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:
    Druid cant heal 10 but can provide might for 10 but its heals isnt really very strong and might is something other classes except mesmer can grant

    Sure it can heal 10..

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:
    Druid cant heal 10 but can provide might for 10 but its heals isnt really very strong and might is something other classes except mesmer can grant

    Sure it can heal 10..

    Nope and its not very good at healing its heals are low its only taken for 10might+ spirits it needs nerf on spirits and might so other can replace it and meta can change

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 5, 2020

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:
    Druid cant heal 10 but can provide might for 10 but its heals isnt really very strong and might is something other classes except mesmer can grant

    Sure it can heal 10..

    Nope and its not very good at healing its heals are low its only taken for 10might+ spirits it needs nerf on spirits and might so other can replace it and meta can change

    I know how druid works, but I also know how sub groups and healing works which you are not understanding now.

    Healing targets your subgroup first, regardless of hp and flows over when there are less damaged people (so not full hp) than the target cap for the heal ability. So you can indeed heal 10 ppl as a druid in a good squad that doesn't eat every tick of damage.

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I do believe in rather bringing other profession up to where a desired profession is at. I do also believe that Firebrand is a tad to strong in PvE due to its unbelievable utility (nerfs to FB have already made it less powerful in Spvp and the reason it remains in WvW is stability mostly).

    Simple solution here: make all Firebrand tomes share a cool down, re-balance accordingly. This would limited access to tomes, which grant a total of 15 skills versus 3 on other guardian specializations. Alternatively using a tome could put other tomes on short cool down if a complete cd share is to penalizing.
    Pros:

    • this provides a nice "trade-off" versus other guardian specs since now the Firebrand loses access to his 3 virtues at the same time
    • the elite retains some of its flexibility but does not have access to all of the skills provided via tomes.
    • there are far worse "changes" which could make the elite absolutely useless

    Cons:

    • Firebrand tomes now compete with each other making especially tome 2 versus 3 a difficult choice (considering tome 1 is more offensive while the other 2 are utility/support oriented)
    • some re-balancing would need to be done, especially to some of the areas which were nerfed.

    The main issue with Firebrand in PvE is the high flexibility it has as a spec and the vast amount of access to utility going along with that. Instead of "nerfing" things like quickness, aegis, etc. A better approach would to reduce a Firebrands access to multiple unspecced and always available utility skills. Make the class have to specialize in one area, but at the same time also allow it to perform that specialized role properly.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    That's exactly what some of us were saying when everyone was calling for Chrono nerfs. In the end, Chrono got indeed nerfed, but got only replaced after FB/Alaren pair got buffed to the point of being able to pick up the slack. And now, predictably, people are calling for FB nerfs, showing that the community as a whole doesn't learn all that well with past mistakes.

    It's a very different situation though. Chrono was indeed broken, being able to do all boons, all CC, all boon strip, all tanking, all skips, all ad control etc. in one spec all at once, which meant nothing could ever compete with Chrono unless it was nerfed, or the game would have to be insanely powercrept with every support just doing literally everything as well.

    The voices i mentioned started long before infamous Chaos Chrono build. In fact, the buffs to chrono then were just an unintentional consequence of constant attempts to nerf it. And even chaos chrono couldn't do all of those things at the same time (not to mention you needed two of them for good boon coverage, because they depended on outside Alacrity to function, and because their boon generation was heavily reduced for 5-man parties when some of their skills were expanded to work on 10-man squads).

    Neither Firebrand nor Renegade are in that same position now, and plenty other specs could fairly easily compete, if it just wasn't for the lack of Quickness/Alacrity availability.

    Originally, for Chrono it was also all about Quickness and Alacrity. Those two boons were always the key, and still are.

    Give support Tempest Quickness and it can compete quite easily with support FB, give support Scourge Alacrity and it can compete with Renegade (ish, Renegade is actually a pretty crazy kit in terms of high damage, Alacrity, massive CC, boon strip/stab/projectile defense as well as perma group Prot and unique damage increasing buffs like Assassins Presence and Soulcleave, which acts as sustain tool on top of that, and imo actually the more powerful half of the Firebrigade).

    Neither of them on their own is as irreplaceably godlike as old Chrono used to be though.

    That's only because Chrono still exists. On the other hand, even though you do now have a choice, it's not much of a choice in the end.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • LucianDK.8615LucianDK.8615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 5, 2020

    Firebrands needs to be nerfed. Its a poor idea to buff other especs as that leads to even more rampant powercreep, such as what Anet have been trying to rein in with espec tradeoffs.
    Especs was supposed to be alternative ways of playing your class, instead of being wildly overpowered through the roof.

  • Katary.7096Katary.7096 Member ✭✭✭

    @Asum.4960 said:
    Why can't power DPS Spellbreaker be good, as well as power DPS Berserker, etc.? Just because they operate on the same profession framework? What's wrong with more variety?
    I for example quite enjoyed power Spellbreaker when it was still good, and really don't enjoy Power Berserker at all. Why does it matter that they share the same core profession? Why can there ever be only one viable spec for some things? Isn't that exactly the issue, too little variety?

    As far as I can tell there are two reasons for this: First, the berserker elite specialization gives core warrior more of the same tools which it already had, whereas spellbreaker adds new options to the warrior's kit. Second, spellbreaker inherently has better defensive than the berserker. Meaning that spellbreaker builds will outdo berserker builds defensively as well as in regards to flexibility/ utility. The way the developers made up for that was giving berserker superior offensive power.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 5, 2020

    @LucianDK.8615 said:
    Its a poor idea to buff other especs as that leads to even more rampant powercreep, such as what Anet have been trying to rein in with espec tradeoffs.

    "Rampant powercreep" is something that can happen to dps builds, but can't really happen to boon support, unless you introduce some completely new (and desirable) boons or make them stronger. Once you get to 100% upkeep (which is something we've achieved long before PoF), it's literally impossible to have a powercreep from this point up, as adding more doesn't matter at this point. So, it's better to not use that specific argument when discussing support builds.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 5, 2020

    @Asum.4960 said:
    So too is there is plenty room on Guard for new specs, without the need to obliterate either DH or FB.

    Generally dont agree here firebrand is too good at too many roles the only way any people would play any role for the next elite spec of gaurdian is if its simply better from a numbers prespective aka power creep which is bad for 2 reasons
    1 its gross to see that kind of power creep added to the game
    2 it would just invalidate Firebrand anyways for those roles its power crept in.

    It would overall be better to cut firebrand back and then make the new elite spec perform decent in line rather than over boosting it just so people feel the need to use it. Either way you end up with some role of firebrands getting put into the trashcan. I would prefer anet do proper balancing than invalidating through power creep.

    Unless the designers are creatively bankrupt, there are plenty ways of drastically differentiating Elite specs gameplay wise, even if they fill the same role in a group.

    Generally not anets goal going forward with elite specs to have them do the same roles over and over even if they can perform the same roles there should be a massive difference in how well they can perform them. Yes i can take blood magic and build healing power on reaper but is it going to be as effective as it is on scourge? No its not. Does this mean reaper should be buffed because scourge heals better no it does not. If reaper was performing better as a support healer than scourge i would argue that it needed a nerf so that scourge could fill that role as thats technically the role it was marketed and built for.

    So if anything be happy that who ever does guardian balance is generous and usually provides compensation for most things they take in some way or another. I think if we see firebrand nerfs we will also see buffs in the areas they want to keep it dedicated too all im saying is that there shouldn't be too many roles that it can fill so well.

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:
    Druid cant heal 10 but can provide might for 10 but its heals isnt really very strong and might is something other classes except mesmer can grant

    Druid can heal enough to keep a 10 man Squad alive on it's own, while generating Might for 10 people and giving out unique buffs (while also being able to tank).
    That's a value package nothing else can compete with.
    Yes, other classes can give might too, but either only 5 man and/or without unique buffs, which means you need double the support slots for likely lower effect.
    The healing itself you actually need with half decent player's is minimal, and pretty much all healers in GW2 massively overheal.

    Lol no... Druid cannot do that it provides might and even thats not the best value package in a lot of cases.
    I think the only time i see druid these days is in boneskinner strike missions. Generally heal brand is the go to healer for most content like raids, fractals, and most of the other strikes. EVEN in strikes scourge is more value than druids due to its ability to power res, barrier, and it even can provide might to some extent. I generally dont see alot of druids these days unless its a friend of a friend who just wants to play druid. The go to staple for pugs is basically locked into firebrand for healing a utility + boons.

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    So too is there is plenty room on Guard for new specs, without the need to obliterate either DH or FB.

    Generally dont agree here firebrand is too good at too many roles the only way any people would play any role for the next elite spec of gaurdian is if its simply better from a numbers prespective aka power creep which is bad for 2 reasons
    1 its gross to see that kind of power creep added to the game
    2 it would just invalidate Firebrand anyways for those roles its power crept in.

    It would overall be better to cut firebrand back and then make the new elite spec perform decent in line rather than over boosting it just so people feel the need to use it. Either way you end up with some role of firebrands getting put into the trashcan. I would prefer anet do proper balancing than invalidating through power creep.

    Unless the designers are creatively bankrupt, there are plenty ways of drastically differentiating Elite specs gameplay wise, even if they fill the same role in a group.

    Generally not anets goal going forward with elite specs to have them do the same roles over and over even if they can perform the same roles there should be a massive difference in how well they can perform them. Yes i can take blood magic and build healing power on reaper but is it going to be as effective as it is on scourge? No its not. Does this mean reaper should be buffed because scourge heals better no it does not. If reaper was performing better as a support healer than scourge i would argue that it needed a nerf so that scourge could fill that role as thats technically the role it was marketed and built for.

    So if anything be happy that who ever does guardian balance is generous and usually provides compensation for most things they take in some way or another. I think if we see firebrand nerfs we will also see buffs in the areas they want to keep it dedicated too all im saying is that there shouldn't be too many roles that it can fill so well.

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:
    Druid cant heal 10 but can provide might for 10 but its heals isnt really very strong and might is something other classes except mesmer can grant

    Druid can heal enough to keep a 10 man Squad alive on it's own, while generating Might for 10 people and giving out unique buffs (while also being able to tank).
    That's a value package nothing else can compete with.
    Yes, other classes can give might too, but either only 5 man and/or without unique buffs, which means you need double the support slots for likely lower effect.
    The healing itself you actually need with half decent player's is minimal, and pretty much all healers in GW2 massively overheal.

    Lol no... Druid cannot do that it provides might and even thats not the best value package in a lot of cases.
    I think the only time i see druid these days is in boneskinner strike missions. Generally heal brand is the go to healer for most content like raids, fractals, and most of the other strikes. EVEN in strikes scourge is more value than druids due to its ability to power res, barrier, and it even can provide might to some extent. I generally dont see alot of druids these days unless its a friend of a friend who just wants to play druid. The go to staple for pugs is basically locked into firebrand for healing a utility + boons.

    Heal firebrand is not meta in any raid, while druid is meta in most raids.

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 5, 2020

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    Firebrand does way too many different task all in one go. It heals good, it boons good, it tanks good, its good dps, and good utility in terms of projectile hate, stability, and hard blocks.

    No, it can't do all of those things "all in one go". Sure, it's possible for FB to do all that, but not in one build.

    To it will be darn near impossible to fit a new elite that outperforms firebrand in anyway if they dont nerf it hard in at least a few aspects because it already does every thing so good. To make something that people will want in groups or want to play over the current existing firebrand would require an unholy amount of power creep.

    That's actually a fair point. Yes, currently there's simply no concept space left for future Guardian especs. Everything that can be done, one of the already existing specs can already do, and do well. With the possible exception of the new spec having access to Alacrity, perhaps.

    I honestly don't get that argument, never have.
    Why can't Guardian have two viable specs doing the same thing?

    Because that makes no sense to do so. if you want two specs doing the same thing, you're basically duplicating specs ... that's redundant and worthless choice.

    See, it's going to take some time but ... eventually you and everyone else will understand that the consequence of having lots of builds to be successful with is ... a wide range in performance between all the builds available. This game isn't designed like others.

    If you're on a highway and roadrunner goes "beep beep"
    Just step aside or you might end up in a heap

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 6, 2020

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @LucianDK.8615 said:
    Its a poor idea to buff other especs as that leads to even more rampant powercreep, such as what Anet have been trying to rein in with espec tradeoffs.

    "Rampant powercreep" is something that can happen to dps builds, but can't really happen to boon support, unless you introduce some completely new (and desirable) boons or make them stronger. Once you get to 100% upkeep (which is something we've achieved long before PoF), it's literally impossible to have a powercreep from this point up, as adding more doesn't matter at this point. So, it's better to not use that specific argument when discussing support builds.

    It could by giving them longer base boon duration's which means less concentration is required allowing them to invest in other stats which could put them closer to over performing in multiple roles or giving them bigger boon tables that include boons from the previous elite spec which invalidates the previous elite spec because why wouldnt you take the support that gives more than the last. You can always powercreep something dont be tricked into thinking that you cannot.
    Im sorry to say your statement is 100% false my friend.

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    Lol no... Druid cannot do that it provides might and even thats not the best value package in a lot of cases.
    I think the only time i see druid these days is in boneskinner strike missions. Generally heal brand is the go to healer for most content like raids, fractals, and most of the other strikes. EVEN in strikes scourge is more value than druids due to its ability to power res, barrier, and it even can provide might to some extent. I generally dont see alot of druids these days unless its a friend of a friend who just wants to play druid. The go to staple for pugs is basically locked into firebrand for healing a utility + boons.

    Druid is meta on almost every raidboss. Hfb isnt on any of them. Hfb isnt meta in fractals either. How do you even buff might to 10 targets with a hfb. One healer is perfectly fine most of the time. Pugs are always way behind meta. Some are still stacking in dungeon corners to this day.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    That's exactly what some of us were saying when everyone was calling for Chrono nerfs. In the end, Chrono got indeed nerfed, but got only replaced after FB/Alaren pair got buffed to the point of being able to pick up the slack. And now, predictably, people are calling for FB nerfs, showing that the community as a whole doesn't learn all that well with past mistakes.

    It's a very different situation though. Chrono was indeed broken, being able to do all boons, all CC, all boon strip, all tanking, all skips, all ad control etc. in one spec all at once, which meant nothing could ever compete with Chrono unless it was nerfed, or the game would have to be insanely powercrept with every support just doing literally everything as well.

    The voices i mentioned started long before infamous Chaos Chrono build.

    Chrono was a problem way before the late Chaos Chrono, and Chrono + Druid where the only viable support choices across all of endgame/coordinated group content for ~4 years, way overshadowing Firebrand and Renegade then and now.
    The game was getting incredibly stale and something needed to change.

    At least, thanks to the Chrono nerfs, now all 4 are viable across all endgame, with FB + Ren shining in Fractals and all of them having a place in in Raids.
    That's not perfect ofc, but at least better.
    Now we are in a different situation though, and unlike Chrono, which actively kept other Quickness and Alacrity providers (FB and Ren) completely irrelevant bc it was so insanely good and the whole package alone, right now there aren't any other Specs that can fill the roles of Quickness or Alacrity providers that are being kept down by either Chrono, Firebrand or Renegade.
    No other options exist. Nerfing either of those specs won't change that.

    @Katary.7096 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    Why can't power DPS Spellbreaker be good, as well as power DPS Berserker, etc.? Just because they operate on the same profession framework? What's wrong with more variety?
    I for example quite enjoyed power Spellbreaker when it was still good, and really don't enjoy Power Berserker at all. Why does it matter that they share the same core profession? Why can there ever be only one viable spec for some things? Isn't that exactly the issue, too little variety?

    As far as I can tell there are two reasons for this: First, the berserker elite specialization gives core warrior more of the same tools which it already had, whereas spellbreaker adds new options to the warrior's kit. Second, spellbreaker inherently has better defensive than the berserker. Meaning that spellbreaker builds will outdo berserker builds defensively as well as in regards to flexibility/ utility. The way the developers made up for that was giving berserker superior offensive power.

    And that sounds good on paper, sure, but ingame it just means power Spellbreaker (which used to be a viable ~37k DPS) just got deleted from PvE endgame and now people just need to play something else if they want to contribute, and if they enjoyed how power Spellbreaker DPS played, they are just screwed, as Berserker plays quite differently.
    Meanwhile SPB would be completely fine on ~35k DPS, giving people more viable options in how to enjoy the game.

    Not a fan of this attitude that anything that has some baked in defensive mechanic, no matter how minor it might be in practice, can never be relevant in PvE endgame, with everybody just wanting pure glasscannon DPS specs entirely reliant on supports carrying them.
    Having things like Full Counter, Barrier or (thankfully that attitude is slowly changing on Anet's part it seems) Shroud is not worth giving up 5-8k DPS. It never will be. Keeping a spec purposefully behind by that much bc it has some defense essentially just means that it doesn't exist for organised PvE.

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    So too is there is plenty room on Guard for new specs, without the need to obliterate either DH or FB.

    Generally dont agree here firebrand is too good at too many roles the only way any people would play any role for the next elite spec of gaurdian is if its simply better from a numbers prespective aka power creep which is bad for 2 reasons
    1 its gross to see that kind of power creep added to the game
    2 it would just invalidate Firebrand anyways for those roles its power crept in.

    It would overall be better to cut firebrand back and then make the new elite spec perform decent in line rather than over boosting it just so people feel the need to use it. Either way you end up with some role of firebrands getting put into the trashcan. I would prefer anet do proper balancing than invalidating through power creep.

    What powercreep though? You keep using it as buzzword, but where is the actual creep there?
    Let's say Guardian gets another Condi DPS spec that clocks in around 38k DPS, while Firebrand stays at 36-37k - but they both play differently, with the new spec not having access to the supporty Tomes and as frequent Aegis, doing something else instead.

    What exactly got powercrept? There are other professions that provide 38k+ DPS, like Renegade, Tempest, Weaver, Mirage, Chrono, Soulbeast, Holosmith, etc.

    Just because condi Renegade does more DPS than condi Firebrand doesn't mean nobody plays Firebrand, neither does a new spec of the same Profession need to invalidate previous specs. They can all exist at the same time, offering different themes and playstyles, and non of it has to powercreep or completely invalidate what came before.

    Otherwise you get a bland, one-dimensional game with very limited obvious choices that you are railroaded into.
    Invalidating old fun and balanced options just to sell some new shiny which essentially replaces it, which players might or might not enjoy over the old one, is imo an awful way to do Elite Specs. We have too few options as it is.

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:
    Druid cant heal 10 but can provide might for 10 but its heals isnt really very strong and might is something other classes except mesmer can grant

    Druid can heal enough to keep a 10 man Squad alive on it's own, while generating Might for 10 people and giving out unique buffs (while also being able to tank).
    That's a value package nothing else can compete with.
    Yes, other classes can give might too, but either only 5 man and/or without unique buffs, which means you need double the support slots for likely lower effect.
    The healing itself you actually need with half decent player's is minimal, and pretty much all healers in GW2 massively overheal.

    Lol no... Druid cannot do that it provides might and even thats not the best value package in a lot of cases.
    I think the only time i see druid these days is in boneskinner strike missions. Generally heal brand is the go to healer for most content like raids, fractals, and most of the other strikes. EVEN in strikes scourge is more value than druids due to its ability to power res, barrier, and it even can provide might to some extent. I generally dont see alot of druids these days unless its a friend of a friend who just wants to play druid. The go to staple for pugs is basically locked into firebrand for healing a utility + boons.

    Good to know you just don't know what you are talking about then, because Druid is and literally always has been since the inception of Raids, for 5 years now uninterrupted been the Meta Main/Solo heal for 10 man content (and for 3-4 years of that time, along with Chrono also being the only pick for 5 man content with Fractals).
    It absolutely can solo heal and buff a Raid squad.

    If you run two heals, sure, you can take a Firebrand, Scourge, Tempest, Scrapper, or whatever really, because at that point you aren't playing Meta and massively overhealing anyway and just about anything goes.

    I don't think you understand how insane one spec providing 25 Might for 10 players is value/damage contribution wise, especially on top of being able to solo heal and provide additional unique both 5 and 10 man damage buffs, as well as Utility such as Entangle or Spirit emergency resses, in addition to other things like pushes for ad control.
    So no, Firebrand, Tempest etc. just can't compete with that. Which is why Druid indeed is and always has been meta for 10 man content.

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    Firebrand does way too many different task all in one go. It heals good, it boons good, it tanks good, its good dps, and good utility in terms of projectile hate, stability, and hard blocks.

    No, it can't do all of those things "all in one go". Sure, it's possible for FB to do all that, but not in one build.

    To it will be darn near impossible to fit a new elite that outperforms firebrand in anyway if they dont nerf it hard in at least a few aspects because it already does every thing so good. To make something that people will want in groups or want to play over the current existing firebrand would require an unholy amount of power creep.

    That's actually a fair point. Yes, currently there's simply no concept space left for future Guardian especs. Everything that can be done, one of the already existing specs can already do, and do well. With the possible exception of the new spec having access to Alacrity, perhaps.

    I honestly don't get that argument, never have.
    Why can't Guardian have two viable specs doing the same thing?

    Because that makes no sense to do so. if you want two specs doing the same thing, you're basically duplicating specs ... that's redundant and worthless choice.

    See, it's going to take some time but ... eventually you and everyone else will understand that the consequence of having lots of builds to be successful with is ... a wide range in performance between all the builds available. This game isn't designed like others.

    Condi Firebrand, Condi Renegade and Condi Weaver all are condi DPS specs doing about 37-38k DPS, "doing the same thing". Are they duplicates and redundant as choice? Should two of them just be nerfed into the ground so there just is one Condi DPS?
    Do dps Firebrand and dps Dragonhunter, which both do "the same thing" aka DPS, play the same and are redundant?
    Tempest and Weaver? Chrono and Mirage? Reaper and Scourge?

    Non of these are "duplicate and worthless" choices. Different specs can fill the same role (DPS/Boon Support/Heal) and still feel very different, giving players a choice between different playstyles and themes to enjoy.
    That kind of variety is incredibly important for the longevity of a game imo.

    If you like the theme of a profession and the role you enjoy most is let's say DPS, what's the harm of having multiple roughly equal options for that role within that profession that you enjoy, allowing you to either get some variety by playing either one now and then, or giving you greater satisfaction by being able to pick the one you enjoy playing more, rather than being forced into potentially the one you like less, because the better one is the new shiny now and the old one has to be kitten now to make room.
    That's imo a terrible way of going about things. This constant invalidation of old content, systems and specs is exactly what crippled ANet and GW2 for years now.

    So no, I disagree. Multiple specs, even within the same profession, can do the "same" thing differently just fine, adding to player choice and game depth in a positive way.
    The fact that Anet feels like they have to stamp the role onto an Elite Spec and invalidate any previously existing build for that role on that Profession so there isn't ever a choice that could confuse the simple minded player is quite frankly patronizing.
    I think we can handle it.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • @Asum.4960 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    That's exactly what some of us were saying when everyone was calling for Chrono nerfs. In the end, Chrono got indeed nerfed, but got only replaced after FB/Alaren pair got buffed to the point of being able to pick up the slack. And now, predictably, people are calling for FB nerfs, showing that the community as a whole doesn't learn all that well with past mistakes.

    It's a very different situation though. Chrono was indeed broken, being able to do all boons, all CC, all boon strip, all tanking, all skips, all ad control etc. in one spec all at once, which meant nothing could ever compete with Chrono unless it was nerfed, or the game would have to be insanely powercrept with every support just doing literally everything as well.

    The voices i mentioned started long before infamous Chaos Chrono build.

    Chrono was a problem way before the late Chaos Chrono, and Chrono + Druid where the only viable support choices across all of endgame/coordinated group content for ~4 years, way overshadowing Firebrand and Renegade then and now.
    The game was getting incredibly stale and something needed to change.

    At least, thanks to the Chrono nerfs, now all 4 are viable across all endgame, with FB + Ren shining in Fractals and all of them having a place in in Raids.
    That's not perfect ofc, but at least better.
    Now we are in a different situation though, and unlike Chrono, which actively kept other Quickness and Alacrity providers (FB and Ren) completely irrelevant bc it was so insanely good and the whole package alone, right now there aren't any other Specs that can fill the roles of Quickness or Alacrity providers that are being kept down by either Chrono, Firebrand or Renegade.
    No other options exist. Nerfing either of those specs won't change that.

    @Katary.7096 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    Why can't power DPS Spellbreaker be good, as well as power DPS Berserker, etc.? Just because they operate on the same profession framework? What's wrong with more variety?
    I for example quite enjoyed power Spellbreaker when it was still good, and really don't enjoy Power Berserker at all. Why does it matter that they share the same core profession? Why can there ever be only one viable spec for some things? Isn't that exactly the issue, too little variety?

    As far as I can tell there are two reasons for this: First, the berserker elite specialization gives core warrior more of the same tools which it already had, whereas spellbreaker adds new options to the warrior's kit. Second, spellbreaker inherently has better defensive than the berserker. Meaning that spellbreaker builds will outdo berserker builds defensively as well as in regards to flexibility/ utility. The way the developers made up for that was giving berserker superior offensive power.

    And that sounds good on paper, sure, but ingame it just means power Spellbreaker (which used to be a viable ~37k DPS) just got deleted from PvE endgame and now people just need to play something else if they want to contribute, and if they enjoyed how power Spellbreaker DPS played, they are just screwed, as Berserker plays quite differently.
    Meanwhile SPB would be completely fine on ~35k DPS, giving people more viable options in how to enjoy the game.

    Not a fan of this attitude that anything that has some baked in defensive mechanic, no matter how minor it might be in practice, can never be relevant in PvE endgame, with everybody just wanting pure glasscannon DPS specs entirely reliant on supports carrying them.
    Having things like Full Counter, Barrier or (thankfully that attitude is slowly changing on Anet's part it seems) Shroud is not worth giving up 5-8k DPS. It never will be. Keeping a spec purposefully behind by that much bc it has some defense essentially just means that it doesn't exist for organised PvE.

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    So too is there is plenty room on Guard for new specs, without the need to obliterate either DH or FB.

    Generally dont agree here firebrand is too good at too many roles the only way any people would play any role for the next elite spec of gaurdian is if its simply better from a numbers prespective aka power creep which is bad for 2 reasons
    1 its gross to see that kind of power creep added to the game
    2 it would just invalidate Firebrand anyways for those roles its power crept in.

    It would overall be better to cut firebrand back and then make the new elite spec perform decent in line rather than over boosting it just so people feel the need to use it. Either way you end up with some role of firebrands getting put into the trashcan. I would prefer anet do proper balancing than invalidating through power creep.

    What powercreep though? You keep using it as buzzword, but where is the actual creep there?
    Let's say Guardian gets another Condi DPS spec that clocks in around 38k DPS, while Firebrand stays at 36-37k - but they both play differently, with the new spec not having access to the supporty Tomes and as frequent Aegis, doing something else instead.

    What exactly got powercrept? There are other professions that provide 38k+ DPS, like Renegade, Tempest, Weaver, Mirage, Chrono, Soulbeast, Holosmith, etc.

    Just because condi Renegade does more DPS than condi Firebrand doesn't mean nobody plays Firebrand, neither does a new spec of the same Profession need to invalidate previous specs. They can all exist at the same time, offering different themes and playstyles, and non of it has to powercreep or completely invalidate what came before.

    Otherwise you get a bland, one-dimensional game with very limited obvious choices that you are railroaded into.
    Invalidating old fun and balanced options just to sell some new shiny which essentially replaces it, which players might or might not enjoy over the old one, is imo an awful way to do Elite Specs. We have too few options as it is.

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:
    Druid cant heal 10 but can provide might for 10 but its heals isnt really very strong and might is something other classes except mesmer can grant

    Druid can heal enough to keep a 10 man Squad alive on it's own, while generating Might for 10 people and giving out unique buffs (while also being able to tank).
    That's a value package nothing else can compete with.
    Yes, other classes can give might too, but either only 5 man and/or without unique buffs, which means you need double the support slots for likely lower effect.
    The healing itself you actually need with half decent player's is minimal, and pretty much all healers in GW2 massively overheal.

    Lol no... Druid cannot do that it provides might and even thats not the best value package in a lot of cases.
    I think the only time i see druid these days is in boneskinner strike missions. Generally heal brand is the go to healer for most content like raids, fractals, and most of the other strikes. EVEN in strikes scourge is more value than druids due to its ability to power res, barrier, and it even can provide might to some extent. I generally dont see alot of druids these days unless its a friend of a friend who just wants to play druid. The go to staple for pugs is basically locked into firebrand for healing a utility + boons.

    Good to know you just don't know what you are talking about then, because Druid is and literally always has been since the inception of Raids, for 5 years now uninterrupted been the Meta Main/Solo heal for 10 man content (and for 3-4 years of that time, along with Chrono also being the only pick for 5 man content with Fractals).
    It absolutely can solo heal and buff a Raid squad.

    If you run two heals, sure, you can take a Firebrand, Scourge, Tempest, Scrapper, or whatever really, because at that point you aren't playing Meta and massively overhealing anyway and just about anything goes.

    I don't think you understand how insane one spec providing 25 Might for 10 players is value/damage contribution wise, especially on top of being able to solo heal and provide additional unique both 5 and 10 man damage buffs, as well as Utility such as Entangle or Spirit emergency resses, in addition to other things like pushes for ad control.
    So no, Firebrand, Tempest etc. just can't compete with that. Which is why Druid indeed is and always has been meta for 10 man content.

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    Firebrand does way too many different task all in one go. It heals good, it boons good, it tanks good, its good dps, and good utility in terms of projectile hate, stability, and hard blocks.

    No, it can't do all of those things "all in one go". Sure, it's possible for FB to do all that, but not in one build.

    To it will be darn near impossible to fit a new elite that outperforms firebrand in anyway if they dont nerf it hard in at least a few aspects because it already does every thing so good. To make something that people will want in groups or want to play over the current existing firebrand would require an unholy amount of power creep.

    That's actually a fair point. Yes, currently there's simply no concept space left for future Guardian especs. Everything that can be done, one of the already existing specs can already do, and do well. With the possible exception of the new spec having access to Alacrity, perhaps.

    I honestly don't get that argument, never have.
    Why can't Guardian have two viable specs doing the same thing?

    Because that makes no sense to do so. if you want two specs doing the same thing, you're basically duplicating specs ... that's redundant and worthless choice.

    See, it's going to take some time but ... eventually you and everyone else will understand that the consequence of having lots of builds to be successful with is ... a wide range in performance between all the builds available. This game isn't designed like others.

    Condi Firebrand, Condi Renegade and Condi Weaver all are condi DPS specs doing about 37-38k DPS, "doing the same thing". Are they duplicates and redundant as choice? Should two of them just be nerfed into the ground so there just is one Condi DPS?
    Do dps Firebrand and dps Dragonhunter, which both do "the same thing" aka DPS, play the same and are redundant?
    Tempest and Weaver? Chrono and Mirage? Reaper and Scourge?

    Non of these are "duplicate and worthless" choices. Different specs can fill the same role (DPS/Boon Support/Heal) and still feel very different, giving players a choice between different playstyles and themes to enjoy.
    That kind of variety is incredibly important for the longevity of a game imo.

    If you like the theme of a profession and the role you enjoy most is let's say DPS, what's the harm of having multiple roughly equal options for that role within that profession that you enjoy, allowing you to either get some variety by playing either one now and then, or giving you greater satisfaction by being able to pick the one you enjoy playing more, rather than being forced into potentially the one you like less, because the better one is the new shiny now and the old one has to be kitten now to make room.
    That's imo a terrible way of going about things. This constant invalidation of old content, systems and specs is exactly what crippled ANet and GW2 for years now.

    So no, I disagree. Multiple specs, even within the same profession, can do the "same" thing differently just fine, adding to player choice and game depth in a positive way.
    The fact that Anet feels like they have to stamp the role onto an Elite Spec and invalidate any previously existing build for that role on that Profession so there isn't ever a choice that could confuse the simple minded player is quite frankly patronizing.
    I think we can handle it.

    Mirage is only good in 1 raid boss and even there its not great

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Mellow.7409 said:
    Nerfs is not fun for anyone (glances at crowd control damage as a Warrior), why not buff underperforming professions instead?

    I am down with that, Give warrior some of its toys back so we warrior players can really go at it again. But Id also like to see the other supports be brought in-line with firebrand; Its support/damage and utility is unmatched when compared with druid/tempest/Heal-regade and I think those specs need to be brought up to the level where they can compete IN ANY GAME MODE with firebrand to make it so its really "Run the one you like" not "run this one because the others are dumb."

    Firebrand overshadows them, this needs to be addressed and needs to be fixed and I really hope it happens soon. Honestly I think Druid needs a hard look at, because for the utility and power firebrand has Id gladly trade my perma-roots that work wonders when solo-roaming in WvW to be able to help my team on friday nights more. Because CA just does not cut it..

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 6, 2020

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    But Id also like to see the other supports be brought in-line with firebrand; Its support/damage and utility is unmatched when compared with druid/tempest/Heal-regade and I think those specs need to be brought up to the level where they can compete IN ANY GAME MODE with firebrand to make it so its really "Run the one you like" not "run this one because the others are dumb."

    That means, for PvE, to give them Quickness or Alacrity access.
    In PvP, where stacking in Mantra range and providing perma Quickness is not a thing, Support Tempest (which is Meta) completely blows support Firebrand (which isn't Meta) out of the water, since it's a more powerful support spec, but just lacks Quickness for PvE content.

    For WvW, Guardian has always been a mainstay because of it's stability application (which is essentially for WvW what Quickness is for PvE), for years before Firebrand was even a thing, so you would have to look at core Guardian there, which people would just return to should FB be obliterated by nerfs, over other things.

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    Firebrand overshadows them, this needs to be addressed and needs to be fixed and I really hope it happens soon. Honestly I think Druid needs a hard look at, because for the utility and power firebrand has Id gladly trade my perma-roots that work wonders when solo-roaming in WvW to be able to help my team on friday nights more. Because CA just does not cut it..

    Druid has been Meta for Raids without interruption since both were first introduced in 2015, pushing out any other heal/might support to offheal or bust status (for groups who run 2 heals only), and is along Banner Warrior and Chrono the only thing that comes to mind that has been uncontested in it's role for pretty much it's entire existence.

    Removing 10 people target caps from CA (Grace of the Land) and Spirits and giving it 5 man Quickness instead could address both the issue that nothing can compete with Druid for 10 man support, as well as making it relevant for 5 man content again.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 6, 2020

    @Asum.4960 said:
    Condi Firebrand, Condi Renegade and Condi Weaver all are condi DPS specs doing about 37-38k DPS, "doing the same thing". Are they duplicates and redundant as choice?

    HOLD ON ... you were asking why a CERTAIN CLASS can't have two viable specs doing the same thing ... FB, Weaver and Renegade are all DIFFERENT classes. Don't move the goalpost on me. Let me requote you and reanswer you to keep this discussion HONEST.

    Why can't Guardian have two viable specs doing the same thing?

    Because that makes no sense to do so. if you want two specs doing the same thing, you're basically duplicating specs ... that's redundant and worthless choice.

    If you're on a highway and roadrunner goes "beep beep"
    Just step aside or you might end up in a heap

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Why can't Guardian have two viable specs doing the same thing?

    Because that makes no sense to do so. if you want two specs doing the same thing, you're basically duplicating specs ... that's redundant and worthless choice.

    Thief has only power specs if we dont count a meme condi for pvp tho.

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 6, 2020

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    Why can't Guardian have two viable specs doing the same thing?

    Because that makes no sense to do so. if you want two specs doing the same thing, you're basically duplicating specs ... that's redundant and worthless choice.

    Thief has only power specs if we dont count a meme condi for pvp tho.

    and are those worthwhile specs to you? I mean ... what are you people talking about 'doing the same thing' ... just being power specs is doing the same thing? That's a bit of a stretch don't you think? I mean, that begs to ask what class DOESN'T have two viable specs 'doing the same thing' ... EVERY class has two viable specs that are power. The original question doesn't make much sense to being with. I can think of a few 'viable' specs on Guardian that are power specs if that's what people want to define as 'doing the same thing'. I hardly think that's a good definition, but if that's the one you guys are using ... seems like we don't have a problem here to begin with.

    If you're on a highway and roadrunner goes "beep beep"
    Just step aside or you might end up in a heap

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    Condi Firebrand, Condi Renegade and Condi Weaver all are condi DPS specs doing about 37-38k DPS, "doing the same thing". Are they duplicates and redundant as choice?

    HOLD ON ... you were asking why a CERTAIN CLASS can't have two viable specs doing the same thing ... FB, Weaver and Renegade are all DIFFERENT classes. Don't move the goalpost on me. Let me requote you and reanswer you to keep this discussion HONEST.

    Why can't Guardian have two viable specs doing the same thing?

    Because that makes no sense to do so. if you want two specs doing the same thing, you're basically duplicating specs ... that's redundant and worthless choice.

    I'm not moving the goalpost, the question I'm asking is why does it arbitrarily matter if it's on the same profession?

    Again let's take the examples of Condi Reaper and Condi Scourge, or Power Spellbreaker and Power Berserker.
    Both of those sets feel very different, having very different playstyles, rotations and even theme.

    Why do you propose it is redundant and worthless to give player's those different options of play for the same role, compared to having something play fairly similarly, filling the same role, on two different professions? Why even make that distinction, at least on such a hard line as "worthless"?

    Let's take DH and Soulbeast. Both are very bursty power DPS's playing fairly similarly. If someone wants to play that role, they are both worthwhile having, since their rotations differ and someone might not enjoy the theme of being a Dragonhunter, but really dig the idea of merging with pets, or vice versa.
    The same applies to Berserker and Spellbreaker.
    Someone might not enjoy the theme of going into a rage, and rather play the tactical Spellbreaker theme, or vice versa, both having different rotations and gamepay feel.

    So what is the difference? Why does just having the same core profession turn two different specs filling the same role from worthwhile to worthless and redundant?
    Why does one need to get destroyed by nerfs to "make room" for the new shiny, limiting options and disenfranchising those who did enjoy the gameplay and theme of the previous spec and role, when there is plenty room for more variety?

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 6, 2020

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    Condi Firebrand, Condi Renegade and Condi Weaver all are condi DPS specs doing about 37-38k DPS, "doing the same thing". Are they duplicates and redundant as choice?

    HOLD ON ... you were asking why a CERTAIN CLASS can't have two viable specs doing the same thing ... FB, Weaver and Renegade are all DIFFERENT classes. Don't move the goalpost on me. Let me requote you and reanswer you to keep this discussion HONEST.

    Why can't Guardian have two viable specs doing the same thing?

    Because that makes no sense to do so. if you want two specs doing the same thing, you're basically duplicating specs ... that's redundant and worthless choice.

    I'm not moving the goalpost, the question I'm asking is why does it arbitrarily matter if it's on the same profession?

    It doesn't ... but then again that's not a very relevant question. Just because it can happen doesn't mean it needs to happen. The answer is that Anet doesn't need to put in a bunch of extra work to make a whole bunch of equivalent performance specs because of the decisions they have made to develop the game. You are applying an idea that there is some reason for more builds to be 'viable' ... but what is that reason? It's certainly NOT because we don't have enough choices to play builds that we can be successful with. THAT is why something can take a big nerf and it's OK ... you said it yourself ... there is plenty room for more variety ... so Anet can move builds around in that large room with class changes without having much of an impact on those builds ability to work in the game.

    So basically, you want Anet to put forth the effort for something they don't need to do because of how they designed the game. That's a no-sale situation buddy. There isn't a need for equivalent performance ... so we aren't going to see Anet go out of their way to give it to us. At best, you get some random occurrences where it happens.

    If you're on a highway and roadrunner goes "beep beep"
    Just step aside or you might end up in a heap