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Cyriades.6198
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sunqua final boss unnecessarily hard on T1 and T2?
Cyriades.6198
Member ✭
This may have been discussed or maybe redundant... but while I the Sunqua fractal is beautiful and very interesting, I have found, among many pug fractal members I have played it with, that the final boss is unnecessarily hard for T1 and T2 fractals, especially when compared to any other fractal.
It doesn't make sense to me to have a 15 min complex and difficult boss fight for just 1 boss on a T1 fractal for example, when all other fractals can be done completely in 15-20 min. as a comparison...
Again, sorry this probably sounds spoiled to complain that something is too difficult, it just didn't seem properly scaled...
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It's scaled properly. Your members were either under-performing in regards to DPS and/or the doing mechanics.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sunqua_Peak_Fractal#Sorrowful_Spellcaster
I would say it is harder then it should be. But that's only because you get a lot of poor players in t1/t2. I mean I can carry alot in t1/t2 vs almost every other boss in fractals except this one so if you get 3 or 4 not so good players which happens alot it can take a few trys. Now ari raids and I bet hasn't even looked in t1/t2 in like forever but it's the same opinion everytime. Everything is fine. It's not the game it's you. Don't listen to him. They could tone it down a bit in t1/t2 and noone would complain
WvW band wagoners ruin the game mode just like Karen's ruin these forums.
Another thing since this boss move around alot, condition classes are better then power classes and that contradict all the other fractal bosses so that might be an issue your team have as well.
If you feel that it is over-scaled then by all means prove it... with facts. Keep in mind that this fractal is very new so those players likely may not know the mechanics. It's best for them to learn the mechanics when there's not as much room for failure compared to in the higher tiers.
I don't need to. I play t1/t2 so I see the struggles. Have you done lower tiers? Yeah it's a lot of mechanics too. It's just a bit harder then all the others on t1/t2. I'm not trying to start a fight with you but anytime anyone ever struggles with strikes raids fractals anything you find easy you in here saying everything is fine so I think you just don't get it. If you play t1/t2 and can tell me you and pugs find it as easy as the rest in t1/t2 then maybe your opinion could be correct. I just doubt you run t1/t2 with pugs so saying it's scaled fine is just a guess on your part.
WvW band wagoners ruin the game mode just like Karen's ruin these forums.
Are you going to prove that it's over-scaled?
Right after you prove it isn't.
WvW band wagoners ruin the game mode just like Karen's ruin these forums.
It's generally on the one first making the claim to back it up rather than place the burden of proof on others to disprove them.
Edit: Video guide for those having issues with the mechanics and would prefer to visually see them explained.
I'm not the op. All I said is I agree it could be toned down and no one but you would complain even tho you do t4 I bet. So it has no effect on you but you just want to argue and ask me to prove pointless things for no reason. It's not mine or your burden. Does the video show everyone's t1/t2 exp. Does it compare that fractal in t1/t2 difficulty vs all the others in t1/t2. I know it doesn't. I play them. I see it. Idk how the eff I can prove to you other then my exp. Go do t2 with pugs put you little unlimited pots in the bank. Drop you AR to 75 ish and you tell me how easy this is with pugs vs the others. But like I said I can almost guarantee you haven't step foot in t1/t2 with pugs so why should I listen to your opinion when I play them and see it.
WvW band wagoners ruin the game mode just like Karen's ruin these forums.
Whether you are the OP or not doesn't matter. One side claims it was over-scaled and should be toned down. It's on the OP, or whoever is on that side, to back up that claim.
When did OP do it? It was doing 13k damage on the T1 version the first few hours it was out , but was patched since then to do ~4k.
Also AR is meaningless if the damage isn't from agony.
the boss is literally impossible to fail as long as you don't die, it does not have an enrage, nor does it have one-shot mechanics that are not telegraphed and explained throughout the whole fractal, it only requires for players to put in a LITTLE effort to learn what their class does and what a break-bar is..... come on t2 fractals can be completed even if you barely understand your class and have a really vague idea of your rotation... the boss phase 1 is literally DON'T STAND IN THE BIG ARROW and DON'T STAND IN THE BIG CIRCLE then do cc collect the balls, rinse and repeat till she remembers the good old staff, only weaver at all boss meta days and does meteor shower, after meteors is phase 1 but spicier than flavour town, then if you have low dips she has time for another meteor and then is UNDA THE SEEEEA time , tank the thread till 8 stacks and then run behind someone or if an allie is tanking that run in front of it , after that is phase 1 but the water is EVIL then she is gonna go mid and dance in the rain while she shoots laser beams of water and then is just phase 1, dance in the rain, phase 1 dance in the rain and soo on... the only thing you should look for is a firebrand healer that can place some blocks if you have that the fractal is soo easy you cannot lose, but if people can dodge and ress if needed is not really required. you think the other ppl in fractals are pepegas without hands ? play firebrand you litterally provide quickness for yourself on your opening, pick that and carry with dps. it also makes sense that is the hardest fractal in the tier being the one that divides fractals t1 from t2 and so on.
sometimes when you go back down to t1/t2, it feels as tho you’re playing solo instead of with a group...
People who are arguing about whether the fractal is scaled properly etc etc.....
Fractals in general are all over the place with regards to their balance. There is a huge huge difference between the easiest T1 and the hardest T1, and the fractal level itself is certainly no indication of this.
Just food for thought
Your right. The thing is 48 nightmare I can do with 4 not so good players. Last time 3 had AR of 42 or lower and died every circle claim part throughout the fractal and at the boss both times. Still an easy win cause you can carry them. Then 50 I couldn't even bring 1 of those same players and beat that. 2 fractals higher. Even 49 is no issue just not a fun fractal imo. I also judge this by how many times I see fractured groups in lfg with Sunqua last boss in the bottom 2 tiers as well. 50 I spend more time rezzing then fighting. We still win but sometimes someone leaves or it takes a few tries. I don't mind. I'm not kicking players but sometimes walking up that mountain after players 3 daily with this pug group you just know it's going to be a kitten show. I just think alot struggle early tiers but nerf it or not is fine w me. I take more issue to the players that don't even try it w pugs going it's fine. It's easy.
WvW band wagoners ruin the game mode just like Karen's ruin these forums.
Its the endboss of T2. Should be harder than the rest. I pugged a lot of t1-t2 for fun and those players handycap themselves with bad builds all the time.
There needs to be something that prevents players with <1-2k dps and no support/cc from advancing tiers. The new fractal is probably easier than SO for them anyways. There are lots of stuck t2/t3 groups aswell every time SO or sirens reef are daily.
Sunqua is easier than Sirens or SO in my opinion but its still too hard if your group consists of water eles, MM core necros etc. Almost every time i pug low level fracs for fun or recs i do at least 60% of the dps. Record is 95% with everyone being alive on art. Those players should wipe for hours until they start thinking about their strategy which consists of 50% running in circles for some of them.
Or maybe they could upgrade their gear to at least rare or exotic with a usuable stat. Most of them are using random stuff even in t2 and there needs to be something that just tells them that this is bad.
You're naive to think random players are going to spend hours wiping. They're the first to give up and post an angry thread about it on reddit or social media.
If they’re spending hours on this fractal then it’s a player skill issue.
This boss isn't hard. At all. If anyone is dying a lot to it, it's due to not reading her cues.
Yeah you might get it now. Players have different skill levels. So someone like you who raids strikes are easy. Someone who does t4 fractals t2 is easy but for a lot of these players stuck on Sunqua or sirens reef or w/e need to adjust and improve. Noone is saying they shouldn't but t2 Sunqua really exposes them and makes it impossible to carry. At least Sirens reef I can kill all the adds and as long as they don't get swept off the boat we good.
I think they should tone down t1/t2 Sunqua for them. That's all. I don't for the life of me understand why players who aren't doing t1/'t2 have a problem with it
WvW band wagoners ruin the game mode just like Karen's ruin these forums.
Content shouldn’t be toned down to the lowest skill level nor to the point that you can clear it the first time without any thought at all. The current scaling for T1 is fine.
Maybe. Of course I play t1/t2 w pugs and you don't but seem to think you can judge it as fine w/o ever playing it. I am at you repetitive reply stage you always get too so Ima end and just agree to disagree.
WvW band wagoners ruin the game mode just like Karen's ruin these forums.
It fine that we can agree to disagree.
Just an FYI that I had been ignoring the ad hominem parts of your posts as they had no bearing on the argument.
I'm not even going to look up what ad hominem means but ty
WvW band wagoners ruin the game mode just like Karen's ruin these forums.
It means you’re directing your counter-argument against me rather than the argument I was making. Whether I have done the T1 fractal 100+ times or not at all has no bearing on the argument.
But it does. How can you say the fractal is fine w/o doing it on those tiers. And not with 160 AR and 3 infinite pots and knowing you you a fractal god guy. Maybe the few times it's been a struggle I just had a bad group set up or a few bad players who knows. I'll find out this week as these boxes are fast and easy loot. Already got over 50.
WvW band wagoners ruin the game mode just like Karen's ruin these forums.
And if I told you that I have done that the T1 twice without issues, would that change the argument? No.
I'd have more questions. Need more info. I hinted at a bit above. We at different skill levels and fractal exp I bet too. So it could change the argument but we agreed to disagree so lets stick to that cause we both stubborn and will go forever
WvW band wagoners ruin the game mode just like Karen's ruin these forums.
T1/T2 hard, are you kidding?
even the CM is really easy, when you start to know the mechanics, it's always the same movements to do during the whole fight
In my opinion I agree to that
Hp of that boss culd be reduced by 33% on t1, and by 20% t2
As players ther not always have right build/gear, and are new players
And power builds have bit problem when boss moving around
We talk about T1/T2 wher ppl not searching for alac/qfb/bs/2condi dps
but joins as 4"dps" 1 healer
Ofc it's ESSSSSSS from your point of view (and my too)
I feel it does a good job of challenging players to improve before they jump into T3/T4s. We need more challenging content on the lower end of things for people to prepare better for harder content instead of it being an immediate jump. Since the only barrier of entry to harder content in fractals is AR, which can be bought, it stands to reason the content should have a more linear progression of difficulty.
Didn't seem anything out of the ordinary to me. By my experience, it's the special mechanics that challenge newbie pug groups not the difficulty of the boss. And this one has nothing really special. Seen groups with half the people at 0 AR do it (t1).
I don't know about T2. I'm not that far into fractals.
But I've done it many times now on T1 and when it goes badly it's always the same things.
This has become my favorite fractal. It has some basic mechanics you can learn after a little bit of time, that you mostly don't just zerg through with berserk gear and stacking like everything else in pre-raid GW2...
But having come from a mechanics heavy MMO like FFXIV, this is the kind of content I like - where each fight requires learning a strat. And the fact that the 'hardest fractal in GW2' takes it's mechanic from a 'leveling dungeon' of FFXIV... that speaks volumes about where player skill is at with regards to mechanics here...
ps: I've been doing this is almost all exotic gear - with only ascended accessory and rings. Just barely enough agony-infusion to qualify. One a condition tempest and a power mirage... So not great gear. It's not about gear - it's just about mechanics. The boss's health is fine where it is.
Just say no to butt-flaps. | 光復香港 時代革命
The final boss is definitely too hard. I've done T2 fractals easier than this one. My group wiped a few times until it bugged out. A big waste of time. I only tried it due to needing one more unique fractal for initiate fractal fighter and because of the event.
I did it just fine with a group of 4 players who aren't experienced at all in fractals. It's also the final boss of a tier of fractals, it's likely supposed to be difficult.
The boss should be reasonably similar in difficulty to bosses in Shattered Observatory. It can be bit more difficult, but the gap is too large. T1/T2 Peaks = T3/T4 many other fractals in terms of difficulty.
I am just coming back to the game after being away for 2 years.
Did this at T1 when it was the Rec.
This fight was HARD. We wiped like 6 times. Me and my team really got to understanding the fight over the course of the runs. Understanding what to do and not do.
Honestly, I thought it was very instructive. I would say keep it as-is for Tier 2. Tier 1 could maybe be tweaked a little. Lop 20% off her HP maybe?
I just don't see it. I wasn't even healing Sunquah t2 or even on an optimized fractal build. In fact, the 4 other players are pretty inexperienced to the whole thing and we got through it just fine with minimal explanations of what goes on.
Only did T1 Sunqua like 4-5 times as a harrier Druid. Did not even try T4.
Without exception, ended up finishing the run in 2 players, rest being dead. One run, I was the only one alive.
Another run we actually started as 2 players party and finished without problems. Might be the scaling? Or just the final boss not bugging? Who knows.
Cannot recall this happening on any other T1 fractal in the past.
This fractal reminds me of...me when I started learning programming: write code, compile, run=error, leave the room for days. Repeat until mostly error free or just gave up.
Come to think of it, most programming today seems to be like that.
The difference is: I never asked money or get payed for my code.
I avoided group content all the time. (Cause I feared people might be toxic if you arent't a pro with high dps.) Fractal Rush got me to start with fractals though. And I'm not somewhere in T2.
For T1 I noticed that some fractals are longer and harder. Others are easier. The nightmare (which - if I saw correctly - had been the last one and considered hard) seems pretty easy and fast compared to 24 and 25.
For Sunqua Peak I had the most trouble where 1-24 was pretty easy. Maybe it was because the fractal was new. Or because the boss has less forgiving mechanics. Then again: in T1 you also have to deal with people with 0 AR trying to join the party. Can be a pain.
What I have noticed: It got better with the next tries. But it depends stronly on the group. Good CC seems to make it like a walk in the park. Unfortunately the people in T1 don't know (yet) about the CC. (And a lot might not have even watched fits about the fractal and mechanics.) It is only that in earlier fractals it is more forgiving.
Here the bosses have a wider variety of attacks and can cover more of the area ... either you are a lot better at doding/evading ... or you break the CC bar more often. If not ... then you slowly get trained to to some. Might be helpful for the stuff you do after 25. (I try to play each fractal from 1-100 once in this order. Not jumping to the later ones just because they are on daily.)
Also people need to learn to rez. (When to ... and when not.) I find it fun. Actually in 24, 25 the path to the final boss is boring. (24 a bit more and longer.) Final bosses are fun. (25 the most fun.)
In 23 the whole fractal felt pretty short and therefore more fun in general. (Less boring stuff. because it was shorter)
Agony excluded, right now for inexperienced players doing T1 Fractals, fighting the last boss of Sunqua Peak is kind of like fighting a strong T4 boss (obviously a really frustrating experience). I’m confident ArenaNet can see or at least guess the problem by watching at their metrics.
The difficulty at low tiers needs to be reduced a lot to make it more in line with other low tier Fractals.
Why? The cc requirement is a lot less than t4, everything does much less damage, and you don't get downed when failing a mechanic, you just get a bit of damage, the boss has a lot less hp, the blue tether gives you stacks so slowly the mechanic becomes irrelevant. I don't think the boss should get any more easy than this otherwise people will not even realize when they make mistakes. And its important that people realize when they fail a mechanic, in fact I think the blue tether should get buffed in t1 in a way that the stacks are applied a lot quicker but the damage you get for failing it should be minor while noticeable. It's by design a mechanic heavy boss and t1 is there to learn it. So if you want people to learn the mechanics of the boss they have to be punishing enough to make them noticeable. Because if they are not people fail to learn. Another point is that Sunqua is the last frac before entering a higher tier so you can view it as a trial for the higher tier. The only criticism I have is that there is no ingame guide. There are mini bosses that should teach you the storm phase, the meteor phase and the blue tether, but the blue tether will go unnoticed. In my opinion there should be a book before the boss that explains mechanics again. To not break the immersion it could be implemented as combat notes from prior adventures or something like that. Implementing breakbar tutorial in the fractal lobby would be helpful as well.
You have to consider that inexperienced players don’t generally look for well organised party compositions and often they play with other inexperienced players. The damage they can take in Sunqua Peak is far higher than what they take in any other Fractal.
If someone don’t have any problem completing Sunqua Peak T1 (in a group of similarly experienced players), then could easily go straight to try most T3 Fractals (AR requirement excluded).
Could be nice having to care about what happens in a fight, but almost no other Fractal forces players to do that, especially not in T1.
Also, Most players doing T1 Fractal could be inexperienced players which have yet to learn the basics of the combat system (which the game totally fail at teaching), and that often feel overwhelmed by all the things they have to learn and pay attention to.
Imagine a group of inexperienced players that try Sunqua Peak T1, suffering for hours at the last boss (something common), failing or barely completing it. Most of them would barely learn anything, also they could not want to try it ever again.
We are talking about the lowest Fractal tier and Fractal is the main instanced repeatable content still supported by ArenaNet and available to any player since level 80. I see no reason to give such an unpleasant experience to new players. Sure, they could just avoid that Fractal and many of them will do that.
You absolutely do not need a propper group composition for that frac on t1, i took that into consideration. The damage is still minimal, you dont even need a dedicated healer in CMs for it. What do you think should be done about the frac? I think its fine as it is, it has to train people for the higher tiers afterall, the general problem is, as you already wrote, that the game does not teach players about combat mechanics (Breakbar including exposed debuff, keybinds, boons, conditions and how to remove them, stunbreaker, soft and hard cc, combos, prestacking, skipping, /gg, kiting, pre and aftercasts, special action key, not to mention all the weird defaults that you have to reconfigure) , builds (gear and its aquisation, role, rotations, traits and utilities, buffood, frac potions and ar to precision conversion, attuning und infusing rings,"unique" gear), groupcompositions (What makes sense and why and where), standart bossmechanics and knowledge of tools to monitor your own and your groups performance (like arc dps and its logs). If that would be the case we would not have this thread, the skillgap between average and decent players would be not that high and content could be balanced a lot better as a result. Its a know how problem that got failed to be addressed for a long time.
t1 t2 are super easy tho...
No. The damage in t3 is a lot higher. stuff will down you. deepstone endboss in t3 is a nightmare with t3 pugs.
The only mechanic that boss has in t1 is "dont stay in aoe".
It is the last level of t1 in a lvl 80 dungeon. All the basics they have to know are that they can move during attacks and that aoe fields are bad.
Maybe they could start working on their build instead of running core ranger MM necro or hammer herald. I've encountered such players even in t3 or t4. Wiping for hours on last boss is definitely not common.
It is braindead easy in t1. Every dungeon in ff has deadlier mechanics and they are casual content there. I helped in t1 a few times now and there is just no pressure at all. most open world bosses are deadlier.
You should not be comparing with t4. You should be comparing with other fractals within the same tier. And this fractal on t1/t2 definitely feels as if it should belong at least a tier higher (and wouldn't even be counted among the easier of the fractals in that next tier).
It's not the first time it happened, by the way (with the most dramatic case happening with Shattered observatory, when originally, before it got fixed, T1 was around middle-t3 tier and was massively harder than other t1 fractals). Nowadays, when making new fractals, Anet makes the t4/CM first, and then tries to scale it down for lower tiers. This is exactly opposite to how the original fractals were made, and usually results in new fractals being way overscaled in lower tiers initially (until Anet eventually goes around to fixing it).
And? It's not about how easy it is. It's about how easy it is compared to other t1/t2s.
Most world bosses can be afked through, so i strongly doubt this.
The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.
I was comparing it to t4 because the guy I quoted wrote that t1 sunqua endboss is like fighting a strong t4 boss even though that's not the case. So I quoted his comment and was referring to it. After I wrote that I also explained why it makes sense for the fractal to be the way it is. People have to learn the mechanics in t1 and need to get enough damage to make failing a mechanic noticeable. Maybe even with stability unavoidable cc instead of damage would work out, too. You could then replace the cc with damage in higher tiers. Doing so maybe even be a decent middle ground. New people would learn the mechanics and not fail the boss over and over again. It would create a false image of the boss fight though.
uhm they arent even 1 shots in t1 and t2.
Well, while it may not be a t4 level, it definitely would be considered a strong boss even among t2. It definitely does not belong in t1. Which is all this thread is about.
Individual fractals do not exist in a void. They are a part of a greater system. A such, difficulty should not be considered only for different tiers of the same fractal, but also between the different fractals in the same tier. It is not okay for some t1 fractals to be on a level that places them significantly above other t1s (and many t2s).
The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.