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Speculations, how will all this lead to Cantha?

ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited September 29, 2020 in Lore

How do you think the current plot will lead to Cantha? everything is still very vague to me.

Jormag will be turned into a "good guy"(or girl) that will help us against Deep Sea Dragon?
He will be killed as a bad guy and lets straight up to cantha for some "weird events there"?
And how u expect Primordus will fit in all this?

Aside Dragons, theres political stuff that can bring us to Cantha?

main pvp: Khel the Undead(power reaper).

<1

Comments

  • Stephen.6312Stephen.6312 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 29, 2020

    @ugrakarma.9416 said:
    How do you think the current plot will lead to Cantha? everything is still very vague to me.

    Jormag will be turned into a "good guy"(or girl) that will help us against Deep Sea Dragon?
    He will be killed as a bad guy and lets straight up to cantha for some "weird events there"?
    And how u expect Primordus will fit in all this?

    Aside Dragons, theres political stuff that can bring us to Cantha?

    Good questions. I think that the teaser trailer is unlikely to be a conversation between Kuunavang and the Deep Sea Dragon. Instead, it's more likely to be another lesser dragon, like Aurene, or a god like Dwayna. Why Dwayna? Well, the idea is that Jormag is an air spirit who converses with other air spirits like Dwayna. Jormag reveals to her that Primordus is not going to be able to help keep the Deep Sea Dragon in line, meaning that the possibility of a continent-wide extinction event is now imminent unless the power-broking spirits behind elemental agreements such as "the Pact" forge new alliances with the (remaining) terrestrial Elder Dragons. Dwayna already knows that this is true, but lives in denial after the loss of her great love, Abaddon. Dwayna chooses to prioritize Cantha over the northern continent for two reasons: 1) the Canthan people are the "stock" from which Northern Tyrian humanity was grafted and 2) there is no terrestrial dragon active on the Canthan continent capable of withstanding the DSD's might.

    Want to delve into some theories about the lore and story of GW2? Check these posts out: The Search For Answers P1 and The Search For Answers P2.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 29, 2020

    My guess is, a rebel group has formed against the the Dragon Emperor and one messenger ship escaped to Lion's Arch, asking the Tyrian's for help to topple the Empire.
    And then we'll have either Elder Dragon stuff happening, or another rogue Human God.
    Arenanet, please let us murder Kormir!

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 29, 2020

    edit: accidental double post

  • The trailer is a conversation between two female characters, both less mortal as they refer to humans as fragile beings. Current story seems to be more of the search to find vessel for dragons energy. It's no longer about grouping up and wrecking those big lizards.

    Cantha was ravaged by politics in the past, but lack of contact with that continent makes a distress call an unlikely scenario. I think this would be more related to the unknown female character. Dwayna is tied to the Canthan lore with Harvest Ceremony etc. The problem is that Kormir has mentioned that she stayed behind while the other gods left Tyria for good. She has no reason to come back. Balthazar was killed ages ago, why would she return now?

    It doesn't have to be a dragon to fit into the story. We have plenty of female characters in Cantha that might fit it perfectly. I'd love to see some Vizu plot twist in this case, but that 2nd voice seems to be someone way older than her. I think, that after the resolution of Jormag's arch, Taimi would simply continue tracking the dragons. She had heard some stories from sailors from the south about DSD's minions. I think it might be very likely that we would finally encounter one maybe with a brief visit in Dominion of the Winds which would lead us further south. Some hunt for a big leviathan would be nice. We would then learn that Cantha is on a brink of destruction, so we'd try to gather some legendary "friends" locally to battle big bad DSD.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Personally, and this is based off the conversation with jormag and aurene recently... I don't believe Jormag is going to exit the stage as quickly as we all might assume. I assumed we'd gut it and be done with it, finally end the norn arc and hang up the whole Idea of this farce once and for all and move back into familiar territory. However I feel like with Jormag saying "Your fear, as well your focus is misplaced" too Aurene as well as calling out her grandfather for his inability to control himself which stuns aurene is telling. As well Jormag apologizes politely and leaves the conversation, rather than berating our dragon it merely realizes it lost its temper or perhaps became snarky and chose to leave as it wants us on the side that it resides in. (There are some hints, that jormag is tired of the cycle.) This is further explained, by how it handled Asgeir and how it handled events going from when we discovered its existence. Let me bring up some minor key pieces, of which sets jormag apart from the other dragons even aurene.

    1. So far its been the most hands off, its followers (Not even the minions) are the ones who have been causing destruction in their wake. They are a cult, and while it seems like Jormag pulls the strings Bangar is a prime example as to what Im sure it typically deals with. Im not sure that Jormag truly wanted... well anything linked to it to transpire, it to me seems as if its displeased and is now becoming more active in its approach as it seems to tire of this whole back and forth.
    2. It could of marched south at anytime, when we were in maguuma, when we were in Orr? Even now. Yet it doesn't not at all and it seems as if it is looking for something, something that is not important to us but is to it.
    3. One of the datamined chat pieces says "Jormags enemy" clearly linking us to be outside of the sphere, Im not even sure Primo is in there anymore despite knowing full well they have traded hands before. I think Jormag, and maybe primordus are both in the same mental state where they dont want to do this anymore; Primo's minions have been relatively docile since GW:EoN and Jormags are only riled up by the sons of svanir, which are a death cult. It to me seems more like hunters using dogs to hunt, they rile the lesser minded minions to do what they want and dont represent jormags presence or mindset. (Because clearly, shown with the Franir and Bangar, and even drakkar Jormag allows its minions to have free will. With only Bangar being used as a mouth-piece as he had the GULL the step up. And this is his inevitable conclusion, I hope he personally is like this forever. A slave. Just as he wanted for others.)
    4. Jormag could of killed us when it took ryland, it didn't. And It seemed to actively hinder and sabotage bangar, as to me the minions sent were not the most powerful with some of the strongest minions from lore not even appearing. Purposefully too Ryland was given our status but for jormag, he is to jormag what we are for aurene now and im sure that Jormag wanted this because to It this was one of the things Aurene had that it didn't. Mortals to fight with it, and Ryland ASKED of his own free will to be empowered... and jormag merely accepted the willingness of the young charr.
    5. Jormag helped braham, to become the wolf and I fully believe it was jormag who likely opened the way for that transformation. (This is not corruption, I think Jormag wants the norn to remember who they are..) Likely to save us from bangar and this was jormag being ever present. It wants us alive, it needs us alive because we might be along with aurene one of the few forces that can stop whatever is coming. To top this off Jormag so far has been showcasing a level of intelligence that only mordremoth showcased and to me, Mordremoth was likely driven to madness like kralk as was Zaithan. Why Jormag is different I am unsure; But the rampant madness and malice just isn't there. It states that its not a threat to Aurene's mortals, and to aurene all of tyria's people are hers to protect so that is Jormag outright acknowledging not only Aurene's power but also her status as well her desire and stating that it has not intention on harming us or anyone other than the threat. It also goes into wanting to "preserve" tyria which is an interesting way to phrase it.... given what we know will happen if another dragon falls... or if the gods or something from the mists try anything.

    To go along with this; Recently I got their anniversary art book. Reading through it they DID make Utopia the scrapped guild wars 1 expansion focused on the mists cannon, those events whatever they are in their entirety are cannon now? And we know from early interviews the elder dragons were not originally going to be the set up, leading into guild wars 2. They were Originally from the sounds of it going to go with some "Gods vs demons" scenario with likely the mists being a huge player, but decided not too and went with the dragons. Well as we have learned the dragons are basically the worlds way of regulating magic, and they may very well be tied somewhat loosely to the spirits of the wild and potentially having one of their own which is/was lost to them. Kralk refers to mother and we dont know of any such entity, at least not by name or concept up until now. Ontop of that we also dont know where the canthans derive their power from, I originally thought perhaps the canthans siphon her into their emperor every so often to ensure complete power. But now I wonder if perhaps when the six arrived, and subsequently durring some point in time when the mists seemed more sealed the spirits began to have issues interacting with tyria. Such as owl sealing herself off rather than being destroyed, I feel like perhaps the canthans are pulling from a darker pressence for that power. I feel like perhaps the envoy's are likely linked somewhat with it and I Feel like it might be from before the Six; In their absence and subsequent exodus especially know I feel like its not a dragon. I also feel like its not one of the six granting them this power; Yet this power was able to when shiro died, create cataclysmic destruction of which to that point we had not seen outside of the searing and now with the dragons.

    There are powers within the mists we know nothing about, End of Dragons likely will be the end of what we know guild wars 2 to be. The plot is about get much deeper with as I see it the potential for the mists and the origins of the six to be called into question. Remember until Balthazar died the dragons could not enter the mists of their own will, and their minions couldn't either. It is ONLY because Kralk got some of balths magic as well aurene that she can enter the mists, we can assume primo and jormag as well got some since jormag now can enter the mists. (Essentially meaning that it could appear anywhere in tyria now.) Im actually wondering if Jormag is going to lead us to cantha and if you listen, the voice talking to kunnavang sounds VERY much like the female voice from the icebrood saga's trailer. I think Jormag isn't going to end its journey here, no I think its going to be with us as we go to cantha. Sunqua peak also sets up the potential of a norn or norn in general being in cantha; Likely able to weather the ministry's attempts at purging because lets face it there is NO WAY they would defeat the norn. If the norn dont want to leave and are there they likely, wont be going anywhere and will stay to the snowy peaks where the yeti's were/are. Like the Olmakhan in Elona I feel like this will not only give us Hun/Mongol looking customizations for the norn but will have the norn continue, to be relevant in the story. Given the norns culture being very similar to the canthans and their themes being somewhat similar, and us knowing all creatures have a spirit of the wild residing over them? Likely I feel like perhaps they went there to see what spirits/animals/world existed there, and just never could make it back to the main land. I believe Jormag will in some method directly lead us to cantha; Hell Jormag might even take us there itself by luring us into its "trap" and then shanghaiing us to the battle-isle. They are setting Jormag up to be more than some evil, eldritch monster but it seems to have motivations beyond us and it doesn't seem interested in fighting us. It seems focused on something larger; Whatever that is means it is larger than aurene which is why it wants our help because it needs us just as much as we need It. They also said that jormag was going to challenge, and change how we see the dragons during the Icebrood presentation and likely at least to me that seems to suggest that Jormag will be .... more or less a frequent for us for a while yet.

  • Bast.7253Bast.7253 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    Personally, and this is based off the conversation with jormag and aurene recently... I don't believe Jormag is going to exit the stage as quickly as we all might assume. I assumed we'd gut it and be done with it, finally end the norn arc and hang up the whole Idea of this farce once and for all and move back into familiar territory. However I feel like with Jormag saying "Your fear, as well your focus is misplaced" too Aurene as well as calling out her grandfather for his inability to control himself which stuns aurene is telling. As well Jormag apologizes politely and leaves the conversation, rather than berating our dragon it merely realizes it lost its temper or perhaps became snarky and chose to leave as it wants us on the side that it resides in. (There are some hints, that jormag is tired of the cycle.) This is further explained, by how it handled Asgeir and how it handled events going from when we discovered its existence. Let me bring up some minor key pieces, of which sets jormag apart from the other dragons even aurene.

    1. So far its been the most hands off, its followers (Not even the minions) are the ones who have been causing destruction in their wake. They are a cult, and while it seems like Jormag pulls the strings Bangar is a prime example as to what Im sure it typically deals with. Im not sure that Jormag truly wanted... well anything linked to it to transpire, it to me seems as if its displeased and is now becoming more active in its approach as it seems to tire of this whole back and forth.
    2. It could of marched south at anytime, when we were in maguuma, when we were in Orr? Even now. Yet it doesn't not at all and it seems as if it is looking for something, something that is not important to us but is to it.
    3. One of the datamined chat pieces says "Jormags enemy" clearly linking us to be outside of the sphere, Im not even sure Primo is in there anymore despite knowing full well they have traded hands before. I think Jormag, and maybe primordus are both in the same mental state where they dont want to do this anymore; Primo's minions have been relatively docile since GW:EoN and Jormags are only riled up by the sons of svanir, which are a death cult. It to me seems more like hunters using dogs to hunt, they rile the lesser minded minions to do what they want and dont represent jormags presence or mindset. (Because clearly, shown with the Franir and Bangar, and even drakkar Jormag allows its minions to have free will. With only Bangar being used as a mouth-piece as he had the GULL the step up. And this is his inevitable conclusion, I hope he personally is like this forever. A slave. Just as he wanted for others.)
    4. Jormag could of killed us when it took ryland, it didn't. And It seemed to actively hinder and sabotage bangar, as to me the minions sent were not the most powerful with some of the strongest minions from lore not even appearing. Purposefully too Ryland was given our status but for jormag, he is to jormag what we are for aurene now and im sure that Jormag wanted this because to It this was one of the things Aurene had that it didn't. Mortals to fight with it, and Ryland ASKED of his own free will to be empowered... and jormag merely accepted the willingness of the young charr.
    5. Jormag helped braham, to become the wolf and I fully believe it was jormag who likely opened the way for that transformation. (This is not corruption, I think Jormag wants the norn to remember who they are..) Likely to save us from bangar and this was jormag being ever present. It wants us alive, it needs us alive because we might be along with aurene one of the few forces that can stop whatever is coming. To top this off Jormag so far has been showcasing a level of intelligence that only mordremoth showcased and to me, Mordremoth was likely driven to madness like kralk as was Zaithan. Why Jormag is different I am unsure; But the rampant madness and malice just isn't there. It states that its not a threat to Aurene's mortals, and to aurene all of tyria's people are hers to protect so that is Jormag outright acknowledging not only Aurene's power but also her status as well her desire and stating that it has not intention on harming us or anyone other than the threat. It also goes into wanting to "preserve" tyria which is an interesting way to phrase it.... given what we know will happen if another dragon falls... or if the gods or something from the mists try anything.

    To go along with this; Recently I got their anniversary art book. Reading through it they DID make Utopia the scrapped guild wars 1 expansion focused on the mists cannon, those events whatever they are in their entirety are cannon now? And we know from early interviews the elder dragons were not originally going to be the set up, leading into guild wars 2. They were Originally from the sounds of it going to go with some "Gods vs demons" scenario with likely the mists being a huge player, but decided not too and went with the dragons. Well as we have learned the dragons are basically the worlds way of regulating magic, and they may very well be tied somewhat loosely to the spirits of the wild and potentially having one of their own which is/was lost to them. Kralk refers to mother and we dont know of any such entity, at least not by name or concept up until now. Ontop of that we also dont know where the canthans derive their power from, I originally thought perhaps the canthans siphon her into their emperor every so often to ensure complete power. But now I wonder if perhaps when the six arrived, and subsequently durring some point in time when the mists seemed more sealed the spirits began to have issues interacting with tyria. Such as owl sealing herself off rather than being destroyed, I feel like perhaps the canthans are pulling from a darker pressence for that power. I feel like perhaps the envoy's are likely linked somewhat with it and I Feel like it might be from before the Six; In their absence and subsequent exodus especially know I feel like its not a dragon. I also feel like its not one of the six granting them this power; Yet this power was able to when shiro died, create cataclysmic destruction of which to that point we had not seen outside of the searing and now with the dragons.

    There are powers within the mists we know nothing about, End of Dragons likely will be the end of what we know guild wars 2 to be. The plot is about get much deeper with as I see it the potential for the mists and the origins of the six to be called into question. Remember until Balthazar died the dragons could not enter the mists of their own will, and their minions couldn't either. It is ONLY because Kralk got some of balths magic as well aurene that she can enter the mists, we can assume primo and jormag as well got some since jormag now can enter the mists. (Essentially meaning that it could appear anywhere in tyria now.) Im actually wondering if Jormag is going to lead us to cantha and if you listen, the voice talking to kunnavang sounds VERY much like the female voice from the icebrood saga's trailer. I think Jormag isn't going to end its journey here, no I think its going to be with us as we go to cantha. Sunqua peak also sets up the potential of a norn or norn in general being in cantha; Likely able to weather the ministry's attempts at purging because lets face it there is NO WAY they would defeat the norn. If the norn dont want to leave and are there they likely, wont be going anywhere and will stay to the snowy peaks where the yeti's were/are. Like the Olmakhan in Elona I feel like this will not only give us Hun/Mongol looking customizations for the norn but will have the norn continue, to be relevant in the story. Given the norns culture being very similar to the canthans and their themes being somewhat similar, and us knowing all creatures have a spirit of the wild residing over them? Likely I feel like perhaps they went there to see what spirits/animals/world existed there, and just never could make it back to the main land. I believe Jormag will in some method directly lead us to cantha; Hell Jormag might even take us there itself by luring us into its "trap" and then shanghaiing us to the battle-isle. They are setting Jormag up to be more than some evil, eldritch monster but it seems to have motivations beyond us and it doesn't seem interested in fighting us. It seems focused on something larger; Whatever that is means it is larger than aurene which is why it wants our help because it needs us just as much as we need It. They also said that jormag was going to challenge, and change how we see the dragons during the Icebrood presentation and likely at least to me that seems to suggest that Jormag will be .... more or less a frequent for us for a while yet.

    Well the other voice is a new character which rules out Jormag, but I could see Jormag being involved in the plot. The saga seems like it was originally going to play out differently and has been shuffled to make room for the last minute expansion. So it wouldn’t surprise me. Just my opinion.

    As to the power Shiro used, everyone will insist it’s Dwayna and anything else is a terrible retcon. Personally I’m all for expanding upon that notion.

    I have a feeling Taimi could come to some revelations studying it.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Bast.7253 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    Personally, and this is based off the conversation with jormag and aurene recently... I don't believe Jormag is going to exit the stage as quickly as we all might assume. I assumed we'd gut it and be done with it, finally end the norn arc and hang up the whole Idea of this farce once and for all and move back into familiar territory. However I feel like with Jormag saying "Your fear, as well your focus is misplaced" too Aurene as well as calling out her grandfather for his inability to control himself which stuns aurene is telling. As well Jormag apologizes politely and leaves the conversation, rather than berating our dragon it merely realizes it lost its temper or perhaps became snarky and chose to leave as it wants us on the side that it resides in. (There are some hints, that jormag is tired of the cycle.) This is further explained, by how it handled Asgeir and how it handled events going from when we discovered its existence. Let me bring up some minor key pieces, of which sets jormag apart from the other dragons even aurene.

    1. So far its been the most hands off, its followers (Not even the minions) are the ones who have been causing destruction in their wake. They are a cult, and while it seems like Jormag pulls the strings Bangar is a prime example as to what Im sure it typically deals with. Im not sure that Jormag truly wanted... well anything linked to it to transpire, it to me seems as if its displeased and is now becoming more active in its approach as it seems to tire of this whole back and forth.
    2. It could of marched south at anytime, when we were in maguuma, when we were in Orr? Even now. Yet it doesn't not at all and it seems as if it is looking for something, something that is not important to us but is to it.
    3. One of the datamined chat pieces says "Jormags enemy" clearly linking us to be outside of the sphere, Im not even sure Primo is in there anymore despite knowing full well they have traded hands before. I think Jormag, and maybe primordus are both in the same mental state where they dont want to do this anymore; Primo's minions have been relatively docile since GW:EoN and Jormags are only riled up by the sons of svanir, which are a death cult. It to me seems more like hunters using dogs to hunt, they rile the lesser minded minions to do what they want and dont represent jormags presence or mindset. (Because clearly, shown with the Franir and Bangar, and even drakkar Jormag allows its minions to have free will. With only Bangar being used as a mouth-piece as he had the GULL the step up. And this is his inevitable conclusion, I hope he personally is like this forever. A slave. Just as he wanted for others.)
    4. Jormag could of killed us when it took ryland, it didn't. And It seemed to actively hinder and sabotage bangar, as to me the minions sent were not the most powerful with some of the strongest minions from lore not even appearing. Purposefully too Ryland was given our status but for jormag, he is to jormag what we are for aurene now and im sure that Jormag wanted this because to It this was one of the things Aurene had that it didn't. Mortals to fight with it, and Ryland ASKED of his own free will to be empowered... and jormag merely accepted the willingness of the young charr.
    5. Jormag helped braham, to become the wolf and I fully believe it was jormag who likely opened the way for that transformation. (This is not corruption, I think Jormag wants the norn to remember who they are..) Likely to save us from bangar and this was jormag being ever present. It wants us alive, it needs us alive because we might be along with aurene one of the few forces that can stop whatever is coming. To top this off Jormag so far has been showcasing a level of intelligence that only mordremoth showcased and to me, Mordremoth was likely driven to madness like kralk as was Zaithan. Why Jormag is different I am unsure; But the rampant madness and malice just isn't there. It states that its not a threat to Aurene's mortals, and to aurene all of tyria's people are hers to protect so that is Jormag outright acknowledging not only Aurene's power but also her status as well her desire and stating that it has not intention on harming us or anyone other than the threat. It also goes into wanting to "preserve" tyria which is an interesting way to phrase it.... given what we know will happen if another dragon falls... or if the gods or something from the mists try anything.

    To go along with this; Recently I got their anniversary art book. Reading through it they DID make Utopia the scrapped guild wars 1 expansion focused on the mists cannon, those events whatever they are in their entirety are cannon now? And we know from early interviews the elder dragons were not originally going to be the set up, leading into guild wars 2. They were Originally from the sounds of it going to go with some "Gods vs demons" scenario with likely the mists being a huge player, but decided not too and went with the dragons. Well as we have learned the dragons are basically the worlds way of regulating magic, and they may very well be tied somewhat loosely to the spirits of the wild and potentially having one of their own which is/was lost to them. Kralk refers to mother and we dont know of any such entity, at least not by name or concept up until now. Ontop of that we also dont know where the canthans derive their power from, I originally thought perhaps the canthans siphon her into their emperor every so often to ensure complete power. But now I wonder if perhaps when the six arrived, and subsequently durring some point in time when the mists seemed more sealed the spirits began to have issues interacting with tyria. Such as owl sealing herself off rather than being destroyed, I feel like perhaps the canthans are pulling from a darker pressence for that power. I feel like perhaps the envoy's are likely linked somewhat with it and I Feel like it might be from before the Six; In their absence and subsequent exodus especially know I feel like its not a dragon. I also feel like its not one of the six granting them this power; Yet this power was able to when shiro died, create cataclysmic destruction of which to that point we had not seen outside of the searing and now with the dragons.

    There are powers within the mists we know nothing about, End of Dragons likely will be the end of what we know guild wars 2 to be. The plot is about get much deeper with as I see it the potential for the mists and the origins of the six to be called into question. Remember until Balthazar died the dragons could not enter the mists of their own will, and their minions couldn't either. It is ONLY because Kralk got some of balths magic as well aurene that she can enter the mists, we can assume primo and jormag as well got some since jormag now can enter the mists. (Essentially meaning that it could appear anywhere in tyria now.) Im actually wondering if Jormag is going to lead us to cantha and if you listen, the voice talking to kunnavang sounds VERY much like the female voice from the icebrood saga's trailer. I think Jormag isn't going to end its journey here, no I think its going to be with us as we go to cantha. Sunqua peak also sets up the potential of a norn or norn in general being in cantha; Likely able to weather the ministry's attempts at purging because lets face it there is NO WAY they would defeat the norn. If the norn dont want to leave and are there they likely, wont be going anywhere and will stay to the snowy peaks where the yeti's were/are. Like the Olmakhan in Elona I feel like this will not only give us Hun/Mongol looking customizations for the norn but will have the norn continue, to be relevant in the story. Given the norns culture being very similar to the canthans and their themes being somewhat similar, and us knowing all creatures have a spirit of the wild residing over them? Likely I feel like perhaps they went there to see what spirits/animals/world existed there, and just never could make it back to the main land. I believe Jormag will in some method directly lead us to cantha; Hell Jormag might even take us there itself by luring us into its "trap" and then shanghaiing us to the battle-isle. They are setting Jormag up to be more than some evil, eldritch monster but it seems to have motivations beyond us and it doesn't seem interested in fighting us. It seems focused on something larger; Whatever that is means it is larger than aurene which is why it wants our help because it needs us just as much as we need It. They also said that jormag was going to challenge, and change how we see the dragons during the Icebrood presentation and likely at least to me that seems to suggest that Jormag will be .... more or less a frequent for us for a while yet.

    Well the other voice is a new character which rules out Jormag, but I could see Jormag being involved in the plot. The saga seems like it was originally going to play out differently and has been shuffled to make room for the last minute expansion. So it wouldn’t surprise me. Just my opinion.

    As to the power Shiro used, everyone will insist it’s Dwayna and anything else is a terrible retcon. Personally I’m all for expanding upon that notion.

    I have a feeling Taimi could come to some revelations studying it.

    I have a serious issue and always have, in accepting that dwayna's power could manifest in that way. To me looking at it now knowing what we know now? It reminds me of the bloodstone explosion in bloodstone fen, or even better what happened when moredemoth died. It doesn't to me feel god like, nor does it feel dragon like I would be willing to go with a dragon providing the power (Bubbles) and Cantha having become a dragon worshiping death cult just not as far gone as the sons of svanir. But I feel like this could be huge set up, for what comes after the "end of dragons".

  • Bast.7253Bast.7253 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Bast.7253 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    Personally, and this is based off the conversation with jormag and aurene recently... I don't believe Jormag is going to exit the stage as quickly as we all might assume. I assumed we'd gut it and be done with it, finally end the norn arc and hang up the whole Idea of this farce once and for all and move back into familiar territory. However I feel like with Jormag saying "Your fear, as well your focus is misplaced" too Aurene as well as calling out her grandfather for his inability to control himself which stuns aurene is telling. As well Jormag apologizes politely and leaves the conversation, rather than berating our dragon it merely realizes it lost its temper or perhaps became snarky and chose to leave as it wants us on the side that it resides in. (There are some hints, that jormag is tired of the cycle.) This is further explained, by how it handled Asgeir and how it handled events going from when we discovered its existence. Let me bring up some minor key pieces, of which sets jormag apart from the other dragons even aurene.

    1. So far its been the most hands off, its followers (Not even the minions) are the ones who have been causing destruction in their wake. They are a cult, and while it seems like Jormag pulls the strings Bangar is a prime example as to what Im sure it typically deals with. Im not sure that Jormag truly wanted... well anything linked to it to transpire, it to me seems as if its displeased and is now becoming more active in its approach as it seems to tire of this whole back and forth.
    2. It could of marched south at anytime, when we were in maguuma, when we were in Orr? Even now. Yet it doesn't not at all and it seems as if it is looking for something, something that is not important to us but is to it.
    3. One of the datamined chat pieces says "Jormags enemy" clearly linking us to be outside of the sphere, Im not even sure Primo is in there anymore despite knowing full well they have traded hands before. I think Jormag, and maybe primordus are both in the same mental state where they dont want to do this anymore; Primo's minions have been relatively docile since GW:EoN and Jormags are only riled up by the sons of svanir, which are a death cult. It to me seems more like hunters using dogs to hunt, they rile the lesser minded minions to do what they want and dont represent jormags presence or mindset. (Because clearly, shown with the Franir and Bangar, and even drakkar Jormag allows its minions to have free will. With only Bangar being used as a mouth-piece as he had the GULL the step up. And this is his inevitable conclusion, I hope he personally is like this forever. A slave. Just as he wanted for others.)
    4. Jormag could of killed us when it took ryland, it didn't. And It seemed to actively hinder and sabotage bangar, as to me the minions sent were not the most powerful with some of the strongest minions from lore not even appearing. Purposefully too Ryland was given our status but for jormag, he is to jormag what we are for aurene now and im sure that Jormag wanted this because to It this was one of the things Aurene had that it didn't. Mortals to fight with it, and Ryland ASKED of his own free will to be empowered... and jormag merely accepted the willingness of the young charr.
    5. Jormag helped braham, to become the wolf and I fully believe it was jormag who likely opened the way for that transformation. (This is not corruption, I think Jormag wants the norn to remember who they are..) Likely to save us from bangar and this was jormag being ever present. It wants us alive, it needs us alive because we might be along with aurene one of the few forces that can stop whatever is coming. To top this off Jormag so far has been showcasing a level of intelligence that only mordremoth showcased and to me, Mordremoth was likely driven to madness like kralk as was Zaithan. Why Jormag is different I am unsure; But the rampant madness and malice just isn't there. It states that its not a threat to Aurene's mortals, and to aurene all of tyria's people are hers to protect so that is Jormag outright acknowledging not only Aurene's power but also her status as well her desire and stating that it has not intention on harming us or anyone other than the threat. It also goes into wanting to "preserve" tyria which is an interesting way to phrase it.... given what we know will happen if another dragon falls... or if the gods or something from the mists try anything.

    To go along with this; Recently I got their anniversary art book. Reading through it they DID make Utopia the scrapped guild wars 1 expansion focused on the mists cannon, those events whatever they are in their entirety are cannon now? And we know from early interviews the elder dragons were not originally going to be the set up, leading into guild wars 2. They were Originally from the sounds of it going to go with some "Gods vs demons" scenario with likely the mists being a huge player, but decided not too and went with the dragons. Well as we have learned the dragons are basically the worlds way of regulating magic, and they may very well be tied somewhat loosely to the spirits of the wild and potentially having one of their own which is/was lost to them. Kralk refers to mother and we dont know of any such entity, at least not by name or concept up until now. Ontop of that we also dont know where the canthans derive their power from, I originally thought perhaps the canthans siphon her into their emperor every so often to ensure complete power. But now I wonder if perhaps when the six arrived, and subsequently durring some point in time when the mists seemed more sealed the spirits began to have issues interacting with tyria. Such as owl sealing herself off rather than being destroyed, I feel like perhaps the canthans are pulling from a darker pressence for that power. I feel like perhaps the envoy's are likely linked somewhat with it and I Feel like it might be from before the Six; In their absence and subsequent exodus especially know I feel like its not a dragon. I also feel like its not one of the six granting them this power; Yet this power was able to when shiro died, create cataclysmic destruction of which to that point we had not seen outside of the searing and now with the dragons.

    There are powers within the mists we know nothing about, End of Dragons likely will be the end of what we know guild wars 2 to be. The plot is about get much deeper with as I see it the potential for the mists and the origins of the six to be called into question. Remember until Balthazar died the dragons could not enter the mists of their own will, and their minions couldn't either. It is ONLY because Kralk got some of balths magic as well aurene that she can enter the mists, we can assume primo and jormag as well got some since jormag now can enter the mists. (Essentially meaning that it could appear anywhere in tyria now.) Im actually wondering if Jormag is going to lead us to cantha and if you listen, the voice talking to kunnavang sounds VERY much like the female voice from the icebrood saga's trailer. I think Jormag isn't going to end its journey here, no I think its going to be with us as we go to cantha. Sunqua peak also sets up the potential of a norn or norn in general being in cantha; Likely able to weather the ministry's attempts at purging because lets face it there is NO WAY they would defeat the norn. If the norn dont want to leave and are there they likely, wont be going anywhere and will stay to the snowy peaks where the yeti's were/are. Like the Olmakhan in Elona I feel like this will not only give us Hun/Mongol looking customizations for the norn but will have the norn continue, to be relevant in the story. Given the norns culture being very similar to the canthans and their themes being somewhat similar, and us knowing all creatures have a spirit of the wild residing over them? Likely I feel like perhaps they went there to see what spirits/animals/world existed there, and just never could make it back to the main land. I believe Jormag will in some method directly lead us to cantha; Hell Jormag might even take us there itself by luring us into its "trap" and then shanghaiing us to the battle-isle. They are setting Jormag up to be more than some evil, eldritch monster but it seems to have motivations beyond us and it doesn't seem interested in fighting us. It seems focused on something larger; Whatever that is means it is larger than aurene which is why it wants our help because it needs us just as much as we need It. They also said that jormag was going to challenge, and change how we see the dragons during the Icebrood presentation and likely at least to me that seems to suggest that Jormag will be .... more or less a frequent for us for a while yet.

    Well the other voice is a new character which rules out Jormag, but I could see Jormag being involved in the plot. The saga seems like it was originally going to play out differently and has been shuffled to make room for the last minute expansion. So it wouldn’t surprise me. Just my opinion.

    As to the power Shiro used, everyone will insist it’s Dwayna and anything else is a terrible retcon. Personally I’m all for expanding upon that notion.

    I have a feeling Taimi could come to some revelations studying it.

    I have a serious issue and always have, in accepting that dwayna's power could manifest in that way. To me looking at it now knowing what we know now? It reminds me of the bloodstone explosion in bloodstone fen, or even better what happened when moredemoth died. It doesn't to me feel god like, nor does it feel dragon like I would be willing to go with a dragon providing the power (Bubbles) and Cantha having become a dragon worshiping death cult just not as far gone as the sons of svanir. But I feel like this could be huge set up, for what comes after the "end of dragons".

    I agree in terms of it feeling off.

    1. It's a fraction of Dwayna's power yet we have an entire continent affected by it. The only two similarities we can pull from if I'm not overlooking are Abaddon's death, and Balthazar - who was depowered.
    2. We have countless people going crazy due to excess magic yet Shiro was just a mere mortal and was somehow able to harness and contain enough divine magic that he could alter a continent.
    3. Dwayna who as someone pointed out was a goddess of "preservation magic". This being the reasoning behind everything solidifying and turning to stone. Sure, it makes sense, but again, this is just a mere mortal with only Abaddon's guidance.
    4. It doesn't really feel good like to me but it DOES feel dragon-like. It feels pretty similar to dragon-brand. Note that it not only turned trees and ocean to stone but it also "corrupted" the local saltspreys. Why would divine magic corrupt the saltspreys? Unless it was them absorbing a foreign type of magic and going insane similar to Kralk. But that seems unlikely.

    It all feels off to me too, so I agree. But there are certain explanations if you're just following lore. I don't think it's out of the question to discover dragon influence moving forward in the expansion. I read somewhere that someone commented it was strange that people wouldn't be able to tell the difference between it being divine magic and elder dragon magic but I found that a bit ridiculous. How would the locals have been able to tell that difference? Is there some signature with the magic that they can use to tell? Would they even know what elder dragon magic is at that point?

    As far as being something else entirely, Arenanet hasn't been very eager to explore other avenues throughout the franchise. We have that glimpse of something during Deepstone Fractal that possessed Corin and haven't really seen anything else like it outside of demonic possession. The closest we've probably seen would be Saul, the new fractal boss. It We also have the assumption that the Colossus from Cliffside was something else entirely and had those Canthan cultists doing something to him.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 30, 2020

    We know once voice is Kuunavang and the other is a "new" character that hasn't been seen in the game before, we can also gather from the conversations that these voices disagree with one another.

    When it was said this character is "new" it wasn't specific.. it could be a brand new character we never even knew about or it could mean a new character in the sense that it's just a character we have never seen in game.. like the Mother Kralkatorrik mentioned upon his death and it could also apply to the Sea Dragon as well since while we know of it, it has had no direct involvement in the game's story to date and it has never been seen in game.. so it would technically be a "new" character when that happens and Anet could be playing sneaky there to throw us off.

    We can also take away from the teaser that the other voice doesn't think much about mortals due to their short presence on the world, this suggests the voice belongs to a being that is likely very old, or even immortal which could strongly indicate that it is the DSD, or a Divine Immortal being or this Mother that Kralk mentioned.

    Then again it could also be someone who is long dead.. and as such is now an immortal spirit being which could very well be possible because Cantha is strongly tied into the mists and the concept of death.
    The 2 new Gw1 Factions classes were based on this as well, Ritualists and Assassins, one that communes with the dead and one that specialises in making things dead XD
    Shiro the main antagonist of Factions was also dead for most of the campaign before he found a way back to the living and when he was dead he was an Envoy a special kind of dead being that due to their crimes in life were tasked to serve the role of a soul shepherd, guiding those who die into the mists where they belong.
    This voice belonging to another Envoy though is something I doubt.. Cantha being such a huge request from fans for the entire lifespan of this game I expect it would greatly disappoint a lot of people if the new story there emulated too much from Factions.. would just feel like they were rehashing the story.
    I very much would like to see Envoys again in Cantha sure but I agree having a rogue Envoy become the main or a main antagonist would be too similar to Factions.

    For me I think the biggest possibilities for this new voice are the Deep Sea Dragon and Mother.. but there is also a good chance that it is another New Dragon or new kind of powerful immortal being that we don't know about yet, HoT introduced the Exalted which were a whole new race we never knew about before.. same for PoF and the Choya so a new Canthan race of powerful immortal beings could happen..
    I doubt it belongs to a dead being due to how similar that could make the story to Gw1 Factions but I won't rule this out as a possibility either.
    I also doubt the voice belongs to a divine being as well since we already had an expansion based on a God so.. yeah.. But I won't rule it out entirely due to some unanswered questions left about Lyssa and her role in Balthazars actions, this is still something a lot of people want a conclusion on, myself included.

    Another long shot possibility as well could be... a Demon.
    Demons do exist in this universe though they have not been featured much in Gw2.
    The only Demons in Gw2 to my knowledge are Raid and Fractal bosses, and one single exception in the PoF story, Eater of Souls but this guy was not encountered on Tyria.

    If we rule out festive creatures and the direct human action in Gw1 that intentionally "Summoned" Demons into the mortal world, (Khilbron summoning Titans in Gw1 and Varesh Ossa summoning Demons in Nightfall) Then the only time we have ever seen any Demonic creatures in the mortal world without being summoned to it is on Cantha.
    When Luxons dug too deep in the Jade Sea (home of the Saltspray Dragons of which Kuunavang is i might add) they disturbed an ancient Demonic being called Kanaxai who proceeded to drive the Luxons insane and conscript them into his Nightmare horde.
    It's unclear if this event also started the appearance of the Demonic Oni on Cantha or not but the Oni show up all over Cantha not just around The Deep where Kanaxai lived.
    It's also never been confirmed where the Oni or Kanazai came from either and they appear to have no connection to the mists at all which is extremely curious considering all other Demonic creatures in both Gw1 and Gw2 are either encountered in the mists or have been summoned onto Tyria from it.
    Kanaxai and the Oni's existence in Gw1 could very well be evidence that there is another Demon world out there, buried in the depths of the Tyria.. which is coincidentally where yet another Elder Dragon has made it's home.

    So while it is a long shot that this voice belongs to a Demonic creature and I do doubt it is as well, There is still a lot of potential for Cantha to either give us a story involving Demons or set one up for the future.
    Who knows, maybe there are Demons down in the depths of the world who are the only thing stopping Primordus Destroyers from reaching Cantha.
    Maybe, just maybe it is in their best interests to help us out against Primordus when it's his time to be dealt with.

    As for the voice, my best bets are going to be on DSD and Mother and personally I am hoping it's the Deep Sea Dragon.. that just makes the most sense to me.
    Kuunavang is a Saltspray Dragon.. a Water Dragon that lives in the Jade Sea.
    New expansion Logo has 2 Dragons on it and every Gw2 expansion to date has had a logo featuring an Elder Dragon that is part of that expansion.

    The teaser dialogue about how mortals "Need Me" really does come across as something an Elder Dragon would say.. Jormag has been spouting very similar rhetoric for a while now and while DSD and Jormag are two different Dragons they do share an elemental link.. One being a Dragon of Ice and the other a Dragon of Water..
    I believe there could be something between these two Dragons that we've yet to explore.. perhaps they are or were once siblings?.. and if we think back a little, Jormag did once warn of a threat on the Horizon and how we would "need it's help" to deal with it.. It is curious that both Jormag and this Voice have used that line isn't it?.
    And returning to a prior point I made.. the End of Dragons Logo.
    I said every gw2 expansion to date has shown a featured Elder Dragon that appears in that expansions story on their Logo right?, HoT had a Mordremoth Logo.. Path of Fire had a Kralkatorrik Logo..
    Well End of Dragons Logo has.. 2 Dragons on it, One dragon commanding a Tsunami like wave very much symbolising the Deep Sea Dragon which has very much been depicted in concept art emerging from a massive Tidal wave.. and the other is a White! Dragon seemingly being drowned or coming up from below the water or perhaps even Ice.. yin and yang dualism, good and evil, mind (Jormag) and body (DSD), matter and spirit..
    This all leads me to heavily lean towards the voice being Deep Sea Dragon.. but that's my take on it anyway, if you read all this kudos lol
    If you took one look and skipped I don't blame you XD I know, I ramble lol

  • @Bast.7253 said:
    I agree in terms of it feeling off.

    1. It's a fraction of Dwayna's power yet we have an entire continent affected by it. The only two similarities we can pull from if I'm not overlooking are Abaddon's death, and Balthazar - who was depowered.
    2. We have countless people going crazy due to excess magic yet Shiro was just a mere mortal and was somehow able to harness and contain enough divine magic that he could alter a continent.
    3. Dwayna who as someone pointed out was a goddess of "preservation magic". This being the reasoning behind everything solidifying and turning to stone. Sure, it makes sense, but again, this is just a mere mortal with only Abaddon's guidance.
    4. It doesn't really feel good like to me but it DOES feel dragon-like. It feels pretty similar to dragon-brand. Note that it not only turned trees and ocean to stone but it also "corrupted" the local saltspreys. Why would divine magic corrupt the saltspreys? Unless it was them absorbing a foreign type of magic and going insane similar to Kralk. But that seems unlikely.

    It all feels off to me too, so I agree. But there are certain explanations if you're just following lore. I don't think it's out of the question to discover dragon influence moving forward in the expansion. I read somewhere that someone commented it was strange that people wouldn't be able to tell the difference between it being divine magic and elder dragon magic but I found that a bit ridiculous. How would the locals have been able to tell that difference? Is there some signature with the magic that they can use to tell? Would they even know what elder dragon magic is at that point?

    In response to these bits:

    On 1: Abaddon's death was going to destroy the world from the Mists - this is magnitudes higher than the Jade Wind or any Elder Dragon event/death. So I find your comparison between the Jade Wind and Abaddon's death peculiarly inaccurate. Balthazar's death is a bit more accurate as the magical storm that resulted affected most/all of Vabbi until Kralkatorrik at it up.
    On 2: As Kormir shows, with the proper blessings from the Six Gods, humans can handle an excessive amount of magic. It should also be noted that Shiro was going insane - though this insanity began thanks to the Fortune Teller's words, but Shiro having this power was excessively short lived so it's hard to talk about Shiro's mental (in)stability through this. It should be noted that Shiro was more than just "a mere mortal" as well - he was of the imperial bloodline, and as shown with Togo during the DLC, the bloodline is curiously special in being more magically adept than other humans. The Doric bloodline seems to be similarly more magically adept.
    On 4: I would disagree on it feeling similar to the dragonbrand or any other dragon corruption. It was a flat out petrification, but dragon corruption warps things while making them elemental. The Dragonbrand looks nothing like the landscape before, but the things affected by the Jade Wind was just turned to stone - think of the myths around Medusa. The Jade Wind also didn't corrupt any living being - physically at least. Saltsprays and Wardens were driven mad, but that could easily be Abaddon's influence, as Abaddon has a long standing history of driving people insane as part of his knowledge domain. And it must be stressed that the Saltspray Dragons were NOT the only things driven mad by the Jade Wind, so it has nothing to do with dragon consumption of magic.

    As to telling the difference - I made a post like that, so you might be referring to me. As to "is there some signature with the magic that they can use to tell" - actually, yes, apparently. Throughout Season 2, 3, and 4 we have various dialogue talking about "divine magic" and "god magic", bringing these terms to specify specific magic that without these lines could have dozens of different possible origins. The collection for Astralaria makes a note that dragon magic, ley magic, and Mists magic are all noticeably different, and that the Foefire and Jade Wind are both "Mists magic" and not dragon magic. Even in GW1, humans could tell the difference between their own magic and magic blessed by the gods, so even if they didn't know of the Elder Dragons, they would have been able to see dragon magic and go "well, this isn't like our magic, and it isn't like the gods' magic, so it must be something different".

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Svennis.3852Svennis.3852 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 30, 2020

    I’m not sure how we’ll get from here to Cantha. Until we discover Jormag’s true intent it’s hard to predict. It seems likely the resolution of IBS may cause a shift in activity in the DSD or Primordius (if they are slain and/or replaced). Whenever we solve one dragon problem, it seems to reinvigorate the remaining as they consume new magic or sense shifts in The All. While it’s doubtful we’ll slay Jormag without something to replace him, if we do and reality is destabilized, the solution to saving saving the material plane could lie in Cantha. That only works if Jormag’s death wouldn’t just explode the world, but causes a slow enough deterioration in reality to let us try to solve it.

    Since an obvious replacement hasn’t been presented for J, it’s either going be Aurene at this point or we won’t be replacing them for now. I half suspect we will make an alliance with Jormag out of necessity. Either way, EoDs is clearly focused on the ED story and major changes to the status quo by all the hints between its title and the dialogue in the trailer.

    Might just be wishful thinking, but I expect IBS to resolve in a mostly contained manner. It would be weird to call it “The Icebrood Saga” and not have it end with the ultimate end of Jormag... I think the Tengu may serve as our backdoor into Cantha, breaking their isolation to request aid for something affecting their territory, and possibly asking for aid for any remaining in Cantha (seems travel or contact could’ve been restored after Zhaitan’s death, who seemed to be the one really messing up travel by sea more than the DSD as far as we could tell).

    Edit: some contradictory thoughts in my post, but that’s cause I see several paths forward.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Bast.7253 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Bast.7253 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    Personally, and this is based off the conversation with jormag and aurene recently... I don't believe Jormag is going to exit the stage as quickly as we all might assume. I assumed we'd gut it and be done with it, finally end the norn arc and hang up the whole Idea of this farce once and for all and move back into familiar territory. However I feel like with Jormag saying "Your fear, as well your focus is misplaced" too Aurene as well as calling out her grandfather for his inability to control himself which stuns aurene is telling. As well Jormag apologizes politely and leaves the conversation, rather than berating our dragon it merely realizes it lost its temper or perhaps became snarky and chose to leave as it wants us on the side that it resides in. (There are some hints, that jormag is tired of the cycle.) This is further explained, by how it handled Asgeir and how it handled events going from when we discovered its existence. Let me bring up some minor key pieces, of which sets jormag apart from the other dragons even aurene.

    1. So far its been the most hands off, its followers (Not even the minions) are the ones who have been causing destruction in their wake. They are a cult, and while it seems like Jormag pulls the strings Bangar is a prime example as to what Im sure it typically deals with. Im not sure that Jormag truly wanted... well anything linked to it to transpire, it to me seems as if its displeased and is now becoming more active in its approach as it seems to tire of this whole back and forth.
    2. It could of marched south at anytime, when we were in maguuma, when we were in Orr? Even now. Yet it doesn't not at all and it seems as if it is looking for something, something that is not important to us but is to it.
    3. One of the datamined chat pieces says "Jormags enemy" clearly linking us to be outside of the sphere, Im not even sure Primo is in there anymore despite knowing full well they have traded hands before. I think Jormag, and maybe primordus are both in the same mental state where they dont want to do this anymore; Primo's minions have been relatively docile since GW:EoN and Jormags are only riled up by the sons of svanir, which are a death cult. It to me seems more like hunters using dogs to hunt, they rile the lesser minded minions to do what they want and dont represent jormags presence or mindset. (Because clearly, shown with the Franir and Bangar, and even drakkar Jormag allows its minions to have free will. With only Bangar being used as a mouth-piece as he had the GULL the step up. And this is his inevitable conclusion, I hope he personally is like this forever. A slave. Just as he wanted for others.)
    4. Jormag could of killed us when it took ryland, it didn't. And It seemed to actively hinder and sabotage bangar, as to me the minions sent were not the most powerful with some of the strongest minions from lore not even appearing. Purposefully too Ryland was given our status but for jormag, he is to jormag what we are for aurene now and im sure that Jormag wanted this because to It this was one of the things Aurene had that it didn't. Mortals to fight with it, and Ryland ASKED of his own free will to be empowered... and jormag merely accepted the willingness of the young charr.
    5. Jormag helped braham, to become the wolf and I fully believe it was jormag who likely opened the way for that transformation. (This is not corruption, I think Jormag wants the norn to remember who they are..) Likely to save us from bangar and this was jormag being ever present. It wants us alive, it needs us alive because we might be along with aurene one of the few forces that can stop whatever is coming. To top this off Jormag so far has been showcasing a level of intelligence that only mordremoth showcased and to me, Mordremoth was likely driven to madness like kralk as was Zaithan. Why Jormag is different I am unsure; But the rampant madness and malice just isn't there. It states that its not a threat to Aurene's mortals, and to aurene all of tyria's people are hers to protect so that is Jormag outright acknowledging not only Aurene's power but also her status as well her desire and stating that it has not intention on harming us or anyone other than the threat. It also goes into wanting to "preserve" tyria which is an interesting way to phrase it.... given what we know will happen if another dragon falls... or if the gods or something from the mists try anything.

    To go along with this; Recently I got their anniversary art book. Reading through it they DID make Utopia the scrapped guild wars 1 expansion focused on the mists cannon, those events whatever they are in their entirety are cannon now? And we know from early interviews the elder dragons were not originally going to be the set up, leading into guild wars 2. They were Originally from the sounds of it going to go with some "Gods vs demons" scenario with likely the mists being a huge player, but decided not too and went with the dragons. Well as we have learned the dragons are basically the worlds way of regulating magic, and they may very well be tied somewhat loosely to the spirits of the wild and potentially having one of their own which is/was lost to them. Kralk refers to mother and we dont know of any such entity, at least not by name or concept up until now. Ontop of that we also dont know where the canthans derive their power from, I originally thought perhaps the canthans siphon her into their emperor every so often to ensure complete power. But now I wonder if perhaps when the six arrived, and subsequently durring some point in time when the mists seemed more sealed the spirits began to have issues interacting with tyria. Such as owl sealing herself off rather than being destroyed, I feel like perhaps the canthans are pulling from a darker pressence for that power. I feel like perhaps the envoy's are likely linked somewhat with it and I Feel like it might be from before the Six; In their absence and subsequent exodus especially know I feel like its not a dragon. I also feel like its not one of the six granting them this power; Yet this power was able to when shiro died, create cataclysmic destruction of which to that point we had not seen outside of the searing and now with the dragons.

    There are powers within the mists we know nothing about, End of Dragons likely will be the end of what we know guild wars 2 to be. The plot is about get much deeper with as I see it the potential for the mists and the origins of the six to be called into question. Remember until Balthazar died the dragons could not enter the mists of their own will, and their minions couldn't either. It is ONLY because Kralk got some of balths magic as well aurene that she can enter the mists, we can assume primo and jormag as well got some since jormag now can enter the mists. (Essentially meaning that it could appear anywhere in tyria now.) Im actually wondering if Jormag is going to lead us to cantha and if you listen, the voice talking to kunnavang sounds VERY much like the female voice from the icebrood saga's trailer. I think Jormag isn't going to end its journey here, no I think its going to be with us as we go to cantha. Sunqua peak also sets up the potential of a norn or norn in general being in cantha; Likely able to weather the ministry's attempts at purging because lets face it there is NO WAY they would defeat the norn. If the norn dont want to leave and are there they likely, wont be going anywhere and will stay to the snowy peaks where the yeti's were/are. Like the Olmakhan in Elona I feel like this will not only give us Hun/Mongol looking customizations for the norn but will have the norn continue, to be relevant in the story. Given the norns culture being very similar to the canthans and their themes being somewhat similar, and us knowing all creatures have a spirit of the wild residing over them? Likely I feel like perhaps they went there to see what spirits/animals/world existed there, and just never could make it back to the main land. I believe Jormag will in some method directly lead us to cantha; Hell Jormag might even take us there itself by luring us into its "trap" and then shanghaiing us to the battle-isle. They are setting Jormag up to be more than some evil, eldritch monster but it seems to have motivations beyond us and it doesn't seem interested in fighting us. It seems focused on something larger; Whatever that is means it is larger than aurene which is why it wants our help because it needs us just as much as we need It. They also said that jormag was going to challenge, and change how we see the dragons during the Icebrood presentation and likely at least to me that seems to suggest that Jormag will be .... more or less a frequent for us for a while yet.

    Well the other voice is a new character which rules out Jormag, but I could see Jormag being involved in the plot. The saga seems like it was originally going to play out differently and has been shuffled to make room for the last minute expansion. So it wouldn’t surprise me. Just my opinion.

    As to the power Shiro used, everyone will insist it’s Dwayna and anything else is a terrible retcon. Personally I’m all for expanding upon that notion.

    I have a feeling Taimi could come to some revelations studying it.

    I have a serious issue and always have, in accepting that dwayna's power could manifest in that way. To me looking at it now knowing what we know now? It reminds me of the bloodstone explosion in bloodstone fen, or even better what happened when moredemoth died. It doesn't to me feel god like, nor does it feel dragon like I would be willing to go with a dragon providing the power (Bubbles) and Cantha having become a dragon worshiping death cult just not as far gone as the sons of svanir. But I feel like this could be huge set up, for what comes after the "end of dragons".

    I agree in terms of it feeling off.

    1. It's a fraction of Dwayna's power yet we have an entire continent affected by it. The only two similarities we can pull from if I'm not overlooking are Abaddon's death, and Balthazar - who was depowered.
    2. We have countless people going crazy due to excess magic yet Shiro was just a mere mortal and was somehow able to harness and contain enough divine magic that he could alter a continent.
    3. Dwayna who as someone pointed out was a goddess of "preservation magic". This being the reasoning behind everything solidifying and turning to stone. Sure, it makes sense, but again, this is just a mere mortal with only Abaddon's guidance.
    4. It doesn't really feel good like to me but it DOES feel dragon-like. It feels pretty similar to dragon-brand. Note that it not only turned trees and ocean to stone but it also "corrupted" the local saltspreys. Why would divine magic corrupt the saltspreys? Unless it was them absorbing a foreign type of magic and going insane similar to Kralk. But that seems unlikely.

    It all feels off to me too, so I agree. But there are certain explanations if you're just following lore. I don't think it's out of the question to discover dragon influence moving forward in the expansion. I read somewhere that someone commented it was strange that people wouldn't be able to tell the difference between it being divine magic and elder dragon magic but I found that a bit ridiculous. How would the locals have been able to tell that difference? Is there some signature with the magic that they can use to tell? Would they even know what elder dragon magic is at that point?

    As far as being something else entirely, Arenanet hasn't been very eager to explore other avenues throughout the franchise. We have that glimpse of something during Deepstone Fractal that possessed Corin and haven't really seen anything else like it outside of demonic possession. The closest we've probably seen would be Saul, the new fractal boss. It We also have the assumption that the Colossus from Cliffside was something else entirely and had those Canthan cultists doing something to him.

    Actually the thing from deepstone, is very reminiscent of the thing that possesses dances with demons in the sunqua CM. In-fact once we defeat her the "presence" which is dark and foreboding leaves, it is hinted at being something "else". So I think The deepstone/sunqua are actually linked, whether or not its the same thing I have no Idea but I find it funny that Jormag mentions something "coming" and that our focus is misplaced. And we've had two fractals hinting at a darkness that we do not know or recognized, both of which are in completely different regions of the world (Albeit in fractals, but those are memories from the mists? So then the mists remembers and can show/embody whatever it remembers.) Perhaps the reason its not more definitive is because its within the mists; Which while sentient are not perfect in their recollections nor does it know more than was observed. If those events were large enough to give the mists echoes and memories then they surely, were large enough to cause some rippling effects.

    Same with Saul, same with the entirety of the bastion of the penitent raid in general. (All bosses had something to do with demons, of the like we've never seen in the franchise before.) also remember Mallyx manifested within the depths of the jade sea, and was not connected to the mists and was a byproduct of the jade winds much like the Oni were? Taking that into account why would "oni" and mallyx who is classifed as a demon come into existence due to the jade winds? That does NOT sound like draconic energy nor divine but something else to me, the ground work has been laid down and is present. Mist magic/Divine magic/Dragon magic are all almost the same to the untrained eye; For example the Oracle who corrupted shiro's mind was a demon sent by abbadon to corrupt him? But shiro did not know. Nor did we until nightfall that it had been abbadon the entire time. The canthan cultists in the cliff-side fractal (didn't know they were canthan? So thats my bad.) Might of been trying to siphon power/corrupt it?

    The mists are said to house many beings, both divine and profane in their existence. The six are not the only god tier beings nor were they the only gods of the humans according to the utopia snippets from the art-book. There are many, many, many unknown entities within the mists and honestly I feel as though perhaps cantha will be that turning point where we see first hand... what might be out there. Remember as well ritualist would punch into the mists basically, and delve to summon spirits and commune; Its likely that without the six they began delving too deep and perhaps they found something? Or something found them. Revenants are connected too the mists, and from what I understand flow through and find the echoes or remnants of those who came before and personify them. For example Kalla is very much self aware and is the mists summarization of all that she was and accomplished which is why she has such odd powers, considering she was really just some warrior. Shiro as well is self aware, but is more and less than he was. He is able to use the jade winds freely to a lesser degree which is just a design decision, but it still showcases that the mists lump you together with your deeds and you semi-ascend to a new level while also retaining who you were to some degree. The echoes or souls (Not sure which it is we channel at this point, the waters are murky there. The lore is a bit all over the place with revenants now~)are concious and see how and what we see and are apart of our revenats right?

    If we assume like many do that ritualists used similar techniques (Glint taught rytlock, but rytlock took her teachings and applied them to his martial training. Which is why the revenant is how it is; The influence of charr understanding and tactics from him are what led to the profession as it is. Had it been a human would it of been the reclamation of the old ritualistic ways? If it was a norn what would it become?) Rytlock was the cause of the revenant, as it currently is. He created it by taking a warrior and a ritualist and merging those teachings from what I understand together in some form. Rather than summoning the souls of those people, he pulled it inwardly and utilizes it in a new form which is why revenants are not ritualsits and the other way around. (I promise this is going somewhere.) The ritualistic teachings however never left nor ceased in cantha, and we never really learned much about where they learned or how it works? Given all that we know about the brief glimpses we've seen of interference from the mists; Is it safe to assume that something could likely be causing trouble in cantha? I think its highly likely.

    They could go with a boring narrative of it being dragon corruption, and dragon worship. Id argue thats going to be done with the sons of svanir; Once and now that we have sort of dealt with the Frost legion. If that is indeed the case then perhaps the line "They need me" might actually be a mist walker? OR one of the six, or perhaps even greater still a child of the six. More likely is that I believe it might be another "Aurene" type creature, who is much like glint in how it views things whom has come to cantha around the same time we have. We know the maps is huge and there are tons of places we've never been and have no Idea what could be going on there; Cantha though in of itself is a huge epicenter from the six and humans landing there to the jade winds. Magic is abundant, even before the events of guild wars 2 and all that has transpired to this point. The mists are also anchored to our world now due to dragons-fall, those god realms are now one with ours or parts of them and I find it fishy to assume that just because the portal closed once he fell that those pieces are not still connected to the mists. We've also recently learned that the spirits of the wild were somewhat cut off from the norn; Due to both the six's departure prior to guild wars 2 and Jormag? Some could still interact at limited degrees such as the main four; But we set them free in this last episode. And we've met otter and other lesser spirits (Spirit of tiger is met in HoT through both the gen 2 shortbow and a minor collection to get its mini.)

    With magic saturating our world, the mists being conjoined and anchored to our realm through the remains of the god realms, the deaths of elder dragons and a god? Our actions may of opened a door to pandora's box. And while we've been fighting and doing all that we have, cantha who was ALREADY abundant in magic and isolated by the choice of the leaders (Likely because their friend/friends/partner on the other side or the deep sea dragon told them to do so) has likely been given EVEN MORE MAGIC. Look at the unstable anomalies and rifts that have opened and continue to open (Skyscale flight collections hint that just because kralk has been dealt with, these rifts still are opening.) Aurene is currently in the mists with an echo of her being the one we deal with in eye of the north (She tells us she is still in the mists fixing the damage done by kralk.) Jormag is ALSO in the mists, looking for something and that something likely is either proof that it will need to get us to join alongside them or is a power/font/item that will give it an edge against its "enemy". And at this point with all the other side stories, and hints about outside interference im finding it REALLY hard to believe that Jormag is honestly setting its sights on Primo who still slumbers. If jormag wants to preserve and protect tyria, something no dragon has ever told us (Mordremoth screamed that to defy him, was to embrace oblivion. Likely not linked but could be if they want to give him some depth despite being dead.) why would it go to kill another one without the assurance that the influx of magic wouldn't destroy both itself and the world? These dragons are eldritch beings far exceeding our limited understandings, Im pretty sure they know whats up. Primo could of killed us when we stopped balth, he didn't and infact tried to help us stop balthazar and then left and jormag has had NUMEROUS chances and has even spared us. (Again stopping bangar from finishing us, by opening the mists enough for braham to join with wolf.)

    Something is up, and I hope it pays off and they pay off of it. I want them to really wow us, shock us and bring home some pay off from all of this build up... despite my lack of faith that they will do so.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Svennis.3852 said:
    I’m not sure how we’ll get from here to Cantha. Until we discover Jormag’s true intent it’s hard to predict. It seems likely the resolution of IBS may cause a shift in activity in the DSD or Primordius (if they are slain and/or replaced). Whenever we solve one dragon problem, it seems to reinvigorate the remaining as they consume new magic or sense shifts in The All. While it’s doubtful we’ll slay Jormag without something to replace him, if we do and reality is destabilized, the solution to saving saving the material plane could lie in Cantha. That only works if Jormag’s death wouldn’t just explode the world, but causes a slow enough deterioration in reality to let us try to solve it.

    Since an obvious replacement hasn’t been presented for J, it’s either going be Aurene at this point or we won’t be replacing them for now. I half suspect we will make an alliance with Jormag out of necessity. Either way, EoDs is clearly focused on the ED story and major changes to the status quo by all the hints between its title and the dialogue in the trailer.

    Might just be wishful thinking, but I expect IBS to resolve in a mostly contained manner. It would be weird to call it “The Icebrood Saga” and not have it end with the ultimate end of Jormag... I think the Tengu may serve as our backdoor into Cantha, breaking their isolation to request aid for something affecting their territory, and possibly asking for aid for any remaining in Cantha (seems travel or contact could’ve been restored after Zhaitan’s death, who seemed to be the one really messing up travel by sea more than the DSD as far as we could tell).

    Edit: some contradictory thoughts in my post, but that’s cause I see several paths forward.

    Might I ask, just curious of the idea and what you might think. What if the Elder dragons, starting with Jormag are trying to wake the remaining dragons and get aurene on board? Such as they are mobilizing because something is indeed coming; And while Jormag physically laid dormant it was mentally capable according to it to "Dream" and even "See and feel" what is going on? They are more aware than we are, perhaps the goals jormag has is to wake primo and then head to cantha because SOMETHING is going on and its not sitting well with them? Jormag straight entered the mists infront of us. Up until Kralk Elder dragons could not enter the mists, and again Jormag does not seem very hostile outwardly to us or really anyone right now. Perhaps having witnessed us fell three of them, and destroying the "madness" that was within kralk and perhaps mordremoth and zhaitan too the remaining elders realize that mortals are worthy of being brought on board to protect tyria. Where as before they viewed us as vermin, or ants and paid us little heed. (I also think Jormags duel with Asgeir was the beginning of this epiphany at least for jormag.)

    So perhaps, Jormag is our gate-way to being brought into the more cosmic/mists/greater balance narrative or Ideal where its trying to get us to seek it so that the answers will be given to us as we go along so that it doesn't seem like its trying to turn us? We dont trust it. And It knows that. So rather than tell us.... its going to show us. I also find it interesting that Zhaitan was the first outside of kralk to outwardly display madness, or a form of it given how his minions reacted and behaved and it was so devolved that it couldn't even speak and where it rested. Orr specifically is an epicenter to tyria's connection the the mists; I wonder if perhaps something from the mists was trying to corrupt the dragons one by one. (I dont know how kralk would of been effected, or what would of led to that ineraction.) But mordremoth was SUPER Close to not only the bloodstone but to the raid wings which are cannon. (The first wing and bastion of the penitent) which had tons of mist magic and demonic influence; I wonder if Mordremoth was effected by any of what was going down in those area's at the time. The mursaat were also up there and we learned that they had wanted to "Deal" with the dragons, so its possible while he slumbered he was messed with during that time.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 1, 2020

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    Jormag straight entered the mists infront of us. Up until Kralk Elder dragons could not enter the mists

    That's because prior to Balthazar dying, Elder Dragon simply had no way of accessing the Mists.

    So perhaps, Jormag is our gate-way to being brought into the more cosmic/mists/greater balance narrative

    I hope not. If even Blizzard has difficulties to make a decent cosmic narrative, Arenanet certainly will fail it it.

    Zhaitan was the first outside of kralk to outwardly display madness

    He didn't display any madness, as far as I remember.
    He was just displayed with less personality and more ferocity, because Arenanet's concept of the Elder Dragons was more primal back then.
    Even Mordremoth was more primal (Being the Jungle itself and all), until Arenanet dropped the Mind ball as some way to defeat the Jungle.
    But that was part of the end of HoT, which felt really rushed.

    Orr specifically is an epicenter to tyria's connection the the mists;

    Other than being the place where the Gods lived, nothing connects Orr to the Mists.
    All the places (I know of) where we could enter the Mists were outside of Orr.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 1, 2020

    Honestly, I find it entirely possible that literally nothing in Icebrood Saga will lead to Cantha. Instead, IBS will end, then we will get some sort of prologue chapter like "stuff going down in the Dominion of Winds and the Tengu are letting people in to help" and we will get some small map in the Dominion of Winds, and thats were we will get our first taste of Canthan-like stuff(outside of the fractal), and that leads to the Tengu wanting to return to Cantha or w/e.

    We have 4 more chapters, and maybe one more vision, before IBS is done. If these chapters are more two parters like the last 4 have been, that really only gives us two more maps. The next map will likely deal with the Spirits of the Wild due to Owl's return, and finish up the Norn stuff. And the last map is likely going to be the Jormag fight meta ala Dragon's Stand and Dragonfall. Neither Dragonfall, or Dragon's Stand, were particularly lore heavy maps. Instead they were mostly just big meta events, and seeing everyone we allied with through the narrative coming together. So I don't really see much Cantha stuff being dropped there.

    If there is anything in IBS that leads to Cantha, it seems like its going to be a last minute reveal in chapter 8 or w/e. Like Jormag's dying words are like "dude, Bubbles, Cantha, its bad!" or something.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    Honestly, I find it entirely possible that literally nothing in Icebrood Saga will lead to Cantha. Instead, IBS will end, then we will get some sort of prologue chapter like "stuff going down in the Dominion of Winds and the Tengu are letting people in to help" and we will get some small map in the Dominion of Winds, and thats were we will get our first taste of Canthan-like stuff(outside of the fractal), and that leads to the Tengu wanting to return to Cantha or w/e.

    We have 4 more chapters, and maybe one more vision, before IBS is done. If these chapters are more two parters like the last 4 have been, that really only gives us two more maps. The next map will likely deal with the Spirits of the Wild due to Owl's return, and finish up the Norn stuff. And the last map is likely going to be the Jormag fight meta ala Dragon's Stand and Dragonfall. Neither Dragonfall, or Dragon's Stand, were particularly lore heavy maps. Instead they were mostly just big meta events, and seeing everyone we allied with through the narrative coming together. So I don't really see much Cantha stuff being dropped there.

    If there is anything in IBS that leads to Cantha, it seems like its going to be a last minute reveal in chapter 8 or w/e. Like Jormag's dying words are like "dude, Bubbles, Cantha, its bad!" or something.

    If IBS decides to deal with Primordus then we could enter the dominion of winds as part of this saga as the Tengu have been apparently dealing with destroyers (for some reason) on either side of the wall. Could be the second to last episode before taking on Jormag in Varajer Fells.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 1, 2020

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    If IBS decides to deal with Primordus then we could enter the dominion of winds as part of this saga as the Tengu have been apparently dealing with destroyers (for some reason) on either side of the wall. Could be the second to last episode before taking on Jormag in Varajer Fells.

    I doubt IBS will deal with Primordus is any significant way.

    There has been no suggestion thus far that hes been reawakened, and nothing really involving him outside of those corrupted Stone Summit, and a brief mention he fought Jormag in Drizzlewood in the past. I wouldn't be surprised if he gets mentioned as "jormag's enemy" in the "Confer with Bangar" achievement, but this is the Icebrood Saga, not the Icebrood/Destroyer Saga. There's also way to much lore baggage regarding the Norn left in IBS, and Primrodus has his own baggage/expectations lore wise, mostly involving the depths, the Asura, etc. etc. for it all to be done in what little remains of IBS. And the IBS trailer has been fairly accurate in showing the path of the Saga thus far, and nothing in there is Primrodus related.

    I am of the opinion that most people are taking "End of Dragons" way too literally, and that EoD won't actually involve the literal end of all the dragons. EoD, and its associated LW season/saga will deal with Bubbles, and Cantha, then for season 7 we will come back to Tyria proper, and finish the dragon meta-plot with the Primordus story, and the Asura/depths lore like Norn and Charr have gotten in IBS.

    Jormag claims to want to end the cycle, and help the people of Tyria, but its actions show otherwise. I wouldn't be surprised however if we take what we learn from Jormag, and whatever we see in Cantha, to build atop Glint's Legacy, and find a suitable means to end Tyria's need for Elder Dragons to cycle magic, hence the "End of Dragons" naming. Killing Primordus after that would just be clean up at that point.

    Also, chapters 1-4 of Icebrood Saga have been in split maps. The Dominion of Winds isn't large enough to house two split map halves, and I would be surprised if the Jormag fight map is a half map size itself. So I don't really see that working out. The Jormag fight map will probably be a two parter in the Varajer Fells area, and, if not there, then that space between Thunderhead, and the Black Citadel. That space in the Southern Shiverpeaks would put Jormag a stone's throw from both the Charr and Norn Capitals, like how Dragon's Stand was to the Asura capital, and would be a fitting end for a saga so focused on both the Charr and Norn. The map between now and then might be further in the Woodland Cascades, given the centaur presence in the IBS trailer.

  • @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    If IBS decides to deal with Primordus then we could enter the dominion of winds as part of this saga as the Tengu have been apparently dealing with destroyers (for some reason) on either side of the wall. Could be the second to last episode before taking on Jormag in Varajer Fells.

    I doubt IBS will deal with Primordus is any significant way.

    There has been no suggestion thus far that hes been reawakened, and nothing really involving him outside of those corrupted Stone Summit, and a brief mention he fought Jormag in Drizzlewood in the past. I wouldn't be surprised if he gets mentioned as "jormag's enemy" in the "Confer with Bangar" achievement, but this is the Icebrood Saga, not the Icebrood/Destroyer Saga. There's also way to much lore baggage regarding the Norn left in IBS, and Primrodus has his own baggage/expectations lore wise, mostly involving the depths, the Asura, etc. etc. for it all to be done in what little remains of IBS. And the IBS trailer has been fairly accurate in showing the path of the Saga thus far, and nothing in there is Primrodus related.

    Primordus - though it may be disappointing - doesn't have to deal with the asura or Depths. Season 3 dealt quite a bit with Primordus, but had nothing on the Depths and the asura's interaction was really just limited to Taimi and Episode 2 (I am not counting the Inquest of Episode 5 because they were there for Balthazar, not Primordus, and had no involvement in the golden path of the episode). Similarly, despite putting Jormag to sleep, Season 3 barely touched Jormag, and brought Balthazar up for just 2.5 episodes.

    We're still 4 episodes and 1 intermission left - at least - of the Icebrood Saga. This is long enough to bring in Primordus as a main focus for as long as Kralkatorrik was in Season 4 (which was 3 episodes).

    I could see the End of Dragons being a red herring as you suggest, but when you add in "the cycle is reborn", it seems pretty heavy handed to be about the Elder Dragon and the cycle of dragonrises, with "reborn" indicating that the old cycle is gone. So I personally am doubtful of that conclusion.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Primordus - though it may be disappointing - doesn't have to deal with the asura or Depths. Season 3 dealt quite a bit with Primordus, but had nothing on the Depths and the asura's interaction was really just limited to Taimi and Episode 2 (I am not counting the Inquest of Episode 5 because they were there for Balthazar, not Primordus, and had no involvement in the golden path of the episode). Similarly, despite putting Jormag to sleep, Season 3 barely touched Jormag, and brought Balthazar up for just 2.5 episodes.

    We're still 4 episodes and 1 intermission left - at least - of the Icebrood Saga. This is long enough to bring in Primordus as a main focus for as long as Kralkatorrik was in Season 4 (which was 3 episodes).

    I could see the End of Dragons being a red herring as you suggest, but when you add in "the cycle is reborn", it seems pretty heavy handed to be about the Elder Dragon and the cycle of dragonrises, with "reborn" indicating that the old cycle is gone. So I personally am doubtful of that conclusion.

    Season 3 had Primrodus in it, but it really wasn't about Primordus. Season 3 was a "lets clean stuff up" season where Anet dealt with the remaining "big issues" in Tyria at the moment so it made narrative sense as to why we would, or even COULD, take a big year+ long excursion over to the Crystal Desert/Elona without having people go "well, what about problem X, Y, Z in Tyira?"

    I also don't really see the Kralk comparison being a fair one. Kralk related narrative got substantial time in Path of fire, whereas Primordus has gotten squat in terms of substantive lore development, even in S3.

    Well, like I said. The "cycle being reborn" just means we find some way to break Tyria's need for the Elder Dragons to cycle magic. We don't have to kill them all to achieve that. And Primordus can still be around after achieving that, as a relic from the last system.

  • Svennis.3852Svennis.3852 Member ✭✭✭

    Weren’t those dwarves in the Visions episode corrupted by Primordius, or was that something else?

    If yes, we’ve never seen Prim corrupt living beings before have we?

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2, 2020

    @Svennis.3852 said:
    Weren’t those dwarves in the Visions episode corrupted by Primordius, or was that something else?
    If yes, we’ve never seen Prim corrupt living beings before have we?

    While they were imbued with Primordus' magic, they did that to themselves.
    They undertook a rite to prevent from being turned into stone due to the Rite of the Great Dwarf.
    However, since their source of magic for the rite came from Primordus, they failed turned into Magma Dwarves instead.

    There are more details on the wiki pages, but we can safely say that Primordus technically did not corrupt them.

  • @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    Season 3 had Primrodus in it, but it really wasn't about Primordus. Season 3 was a "lets clean stuff up" season where Anet dealt with the remaining "big issues" in Tyria at the moment so it made narrative sense as to why we would, or even COULD, take a big year+ long excursion over to the Crystal Desert/Elona without having people go "well, what about problem X, Y, Z in Tyira?"

    ANet described the season as being about the Commander having threats on all sides - namely, the White Mantle, Primordus, and Jormag. So they were collectively "the antagonists". Unfortunately, ANet's adherence to so few episodes and using the triple trouble threat to bring in a fourth threat of Balthazar that wipes out the three threats, results in those three threats not getting much focus individually.

    I also don't really see the Kralk comparison being a fair one. Kralk related narrative got substantial time in Path of fire, whereas Primordus has gotten squat in terms of substantive lore development, even in S3.

    I would disagree. Primordus got way more development in Season 3 than Kralkatorrik got in Path of Fire. From attacking Aurene to relocating to new powers, to his unique weakness, and even bringing back the stone dwarfs (via Rhoban and his dead colleges at Ember Bay), whereas Kralkatorrik in Path of Fire was just about how he moved and what his weakness was; unless you're arguing about Glint's Legacy being part of Kralk's story, which personally I disagree because it's part of all Elder Dragons' stories (or at the very least, part of Mordremoth's, Primordus', and Kralkatorrik's).

    If you combine Path of Fire and Season 4, then yes, Kralk got more development than Primordus in Season 3. Probably equal if you only count PoF + Episodes 1 and 2 of S4 (since Kralk was complete MIA in Ep3).

    Well, like I said. The "cycle being reborn" just means we find some way to break Tyria's need for the Elder Dragons to cycle magic. We don't have to kill them all to achieve that. And Primordus can still be around after achieving that, as a relic from the last system.

    With how things have gone so far, I feel like it'll be Jormag that'll still be around as a redeemed relic of the last system, if there is one. Especially if "Jormag's Enemy" talk ends up being the predictable and boring outcome of naming Primordus as such, this would no doubt push the plot of Episodes 5-8 to be involving Primordus.

    And there's also the matter of the Icebrood Saga logo - it's blue and red, matching Primordus' color underneath.

    @Svennis.3852 said:
    Weren’t those dwarves in the Visions episode corrupted by Primordius, or was that something else?

    If yes, we’ve never seen Prim corrupt living beings before have we?

    Yes and technically no.

    The Stone Summit channeled Primordus' power as an attempt to overcome the Rite of the Great Dwarf that was turning them to stone dwarves. This ended up corrupting them.

    While Primordus and his minions have not actively corrupted the living, we have seen in Crucible of Eternity some living beings be turned into destroyers by the Inquest exposing them to Primordus' power (much like the Stone Dwarves), and it's heavily hinted but unconfirmed that the Imbued Grawl Shaman of Volcanic Fractal is similar - a living being who got imbued with Primordus' power and corrupted (it wields a Destroyer Bow, and during an interview with gw2 devs back in 2013 when asked directly if the imbued shaman was corrupted by Primordus, the devs instead talked about Primordus not corrupting living beings but if he were to, it would follow a certain pattern - a pattern which mirrors the grawl shaman - namely, being encased in rock (e.g., the grawl shaman's stone shield) and then covered in lava).

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    ANet described the season as being about the Commander having threats on all sides - namely, the White Mantle, Primordus, and Jormag. So they were collectively "the antagonists". Unfortunately, ANet's adherence to so few episodes and using the triple trouble threat to bring in a fourth threat of Balthazar that wipes out the three threats, results in those three threats not getting much focus individually.

    Which is pretty much what I said. Season 3 was a "cleaning house" narrative to either get rid of(White Mantle) or push back(Jormag/Primordus) the remaining higher level threats in Tyria proper, so it made more sense for us to go on an extended excursion into the Desert/Elona without us having to go "well what about X?"

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    I would disagree. Primordus got way more development in Season 3 than Kralkatorrik got in Path of Fire. From attacking Aurene to relocating to new powers, to his unique weakness, and even bringing back the stone dwarfs (via Rhoban and his dead colleges at Ember Bay), whereas Kralkatorrik in Path of Fire was just about how he moved and what his weakness was; unless you're arguing about Glint's Legacy being part of Kralk's story, which personally I disagree because it's part of all Elder Dragons' stories (or at the very least, part of Mordremoth's, Primordus', and Kralkatorrik's).

    If you combine Path of Fire and Season 4, then yes, Kralk got more development than Primordus in Season 3. Probably equal if you only count PoF + Episodes 1 and 2 of S4 (since Kralk was complete MIA in Ep3).

    I honestly see it the opposite. I don't feel like Primordus got much real development in S3. The death/vine touched thing only applied to a handful of enemies, and was barely explored. The singular Stone Dwarf expanded nothing on the dwarves as a whole, and was just a remote one off like Odgen is. And Pri's weakness was explored about as much as Jormag's was. Not to mention the complete lack of actually going into the depths to see one of the ancient Asura mega-cities I would expect from a Primordus story.

    Kralk on the other hand got pretty much everything I would have expected out of his story in Path of Fire. The massive minion roster boost, new area wide mechanics like the Fury of the Brandstorm, the continued exploration of Vlast, Glint, Glint's Lair, the Dragonblood Spear, etc. Honestly, you move the Dragonsblood weapon forge from Thunderhead into Kesho or w/e, and you would have most everything set up to kill Kralk in PoF. Which is part of the reason why S4 did little to expand on Kralk IMO, besides just taking his power up to an absurd degree. Episodes 1-4 were more about Elona then anything else, getting rid of Joko in Eps1-3, then getting all the disparate groups together into something cohesive in episode 4. Episode 5 was "dude weapons", and us trying to kill Kralk. Episode 6 was the only one that really expanded on Kralk's lore, and that came entirely in the last minute reveal of his torment, and the idea of "mother"

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    With how things have gone so far, I feel like it'll be Jormag that'll still be around as a redeemed relic of the last system, if there is one. Especially if "Jormag's Enemy" talk ends up being the predictable and boring outcome of naming Primordus as such, this would no doubt push the plot of Episodes 5-8 to be involving Primordus.

    Jormag has shown itself far too much of a habitual liar, and people destroyer, for me to see it as being redeemable. That would be the hardest narrative sell I think the game would have ever done, or ever could do, should they go that route. After

    • Lying to Asgier about leaving the Norn alone if they went south
    • Manipulating Bangar into starting a horribly destructive civil war among the Charr, which also led to the genocide of the Drizzlewood communities.
    • Manipulating the Vigil soldiers at Jora's Keep into killing each other
    • Manipulating the Kodan at Still Waters Speaking into wandering out into the wastes to die
    • Mentally attacking Marj using her dead sister's voice
    • The forcible continued consumption of the Lost Spirit's power against their will
    • The constant attempts to psychological demoralization

    There's not been a single thing in IBS that makes Jormag look redeemable, or even tolerable. If anything, IBS has constantly made Jormag look like the WORST of the Elder Dragons. The other ED's have at least been honest in their actions thus far. Jormag's just a horrible liar.

    The plots of episode 5-8 will most likely be

    • 5-6 cleaning up the Charr leadership question, dealing with Owl's return, the major spirits almost getting corrupted, and Braham/the prophecy
    • 7-8 Us actually dealing with Jormag and its BS. Gathering our forces, going somewhere to actually fight the beast, having an expanded meta across releases like Drizzlewood, and probably some last minute/chapter 8 reveal about something Jormag knows about the Mists, or Tyria, or w/e, that will tie into EoD, and ending the Dragon cycle for good.

    With the Ryland stuff thrown in there somewhere. If Primrodus does make a bigger appearance in IBS, it will be us going to it to harvest some of its energy to weaponize against Jormag, not us actually dealing with it narratively.

  • @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    I honestly see it the opposite. I don't feel like Primordus got much real development in S3. The death/vine touched thing only applied to a handful of enemies, and was barely explored. The singular Stone Dwarf expanded nothing on the dwarves as a whole, and was just a remote one off like Odgen is. And Pri's weakness was explored about as much as Jormag's was. Not to mention the complete lack of actually going into the depths to see one of the ancient Asura mega-cities I would expect from a Primordus story.

    Kralk on the other hand got pretty much everything I would have expected out of his story in Path of Fire. The massive minion roster boost, new area wide mechanics like the Fury of the Brandstorm, the continued exploration of Vlast, Glint, Glint's Lair, the Dragonblood Spear, etc. Honestly, you move the Dragonsblood weapon forge from Thunderhead into Kesho or w/e, and you would have most everything set up to kill Kralk in PoF.

    "death/vine touched thing only applied to a handful of enemies" but yet "massive minion roster boost". Literally same thing on both cases.

    "new area wide mechanics like the Fury of the Brandstorm," which is different from Draconis Mons' water how?

    "The singular Stone Dwarf expanded nothing on the dwarves as a whole, and was just a remote one off like Odgen is" "the continued exploration of Vlast, Glint, Glint's Lair, the Dragonblood Spear, etc" - guess what else is a remote one off? I mean, the Glint's Lair, Vlast, and Glint - they were one and done characters and locations. The Dragonsblood Spear could be argued the same, in all honesty.

    Which is part of the reason why S4 did little to expand on Kralk IMO, besides just taking his power up to an absurd degree. Episodes 1-4 were more about Elona then anything else, getting rid of Joko in Eps1-3, then getting all the disparate groups together into something cohesive in episode 4. Episode 5 was "dude weapons", and us trying to kill Kralk. Episode 6 was the only one that really expanded on Kralk's lore, and that came entirely in the last minute reveal of his torment, and the idea of "mother"

    Doesn't that rather contradict your earlier statements and support my argument that there wasn't that much buildup for Kralk and that there's enough room for Primordus? I mean, if only one episode properly built up Kralkatorrik, then why are four episodes not enough for Primordus?

    Jormag has shown itself far too much of a habitual liar, and people destroyer, for me to see it as being redeemable.

    Jormag has been showing itself to be acting in two different but predictable manners.

    Little different from Kralkatorrik vs. Kralkatorrik's Torment.

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    The plots of episode 5-8 will most likely be

    • 5-6 cleaning up the Charr leadership question, dealing with Owl's return, the major spirits almost getting corrupted, and Braham/the prophecy
    • 7-8 Us actually dealing with Jormag and its BS. Gathering our forces, going somewhere to actually fight the beast, having an expanded meta across releases like Drizzlewood, and probably some last minute/chapter 8 reveal about something Jormag knows about the Mists, or Tyria, or w/e, that will tie into EoD, and ending the Dragon cycle for good.
      With the Ryland stuff thrown in there somewhere. If Primrodus does make a bigger appearance in IBS, it will be us going to it to harvest some of its energy to weaponize against Jormag, not us actually dealing with it narratively.

    That seems more like just the plot of two episodes, maybe three, and not four. ANet covers a lot of stuff in one episode. Everything in that first bullet point is 100% just one episode - with additional stuff added to it. Hell, "gathering our forces" is ALWAYS done off-screen between episodes. "our forces" are always just there and present.

    I mean, look at what the prologue covered: Dealing with branded aftermath, answering how Tyrians view Aurene as an Elder, convening the charr leadership, revealing two new threats (Renegades under Bangar with Braham's bow, icebrood returning), introducing and fleshing out three major characters (Ryland, Bangar, Crecia), and marking all the members of Dragon's Watch who's involved throughout the episode.

    That's a lot, and little screentime overall for some things. And that's how it's going to be for things like "cleaning up the Charr leadership question, dealing with Owl's return, the major spirits almost getting corrupted, and Braham/the prophecy". Particularly "dealing with Owl's return, the major spirits almost getting corrupted" are no doubt going to be very minor. Owl's return gets covered with the post-Jormag Rising achievement chain, so most likely Owl will make as much involvement as the Lost Spirits in Jormag Rising did. And the Great Spirits' being almost corrupted will either be ignored entirely, or a few one-off sentences like Almorra's death in Episode 1.

    There is no way that "Jormag's Enemy" and "Jormag's Secret" won't be involved in the future plot. The rest of the season won't be focused solely on eliminating Jormag. Four episodes is just too much for all that after all the focus Jormag got in Episodes 1+2+4.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 3, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    "death/vine touched thing only applied to a handful of enemies" but yet "massive minion roster boost". Literally same thing on both cases.

    No. Compare the number of types of Risen, Icebrood, Branded, and Mordrem, to Destroyers. Its not even close.
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Risen#Types
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Branded#Types
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mordrem#Types
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Icebrood#Types
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Destroyer#Types

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    "new area wide mechanics like the Fury of the Brandstorm," which is different from Draconis Mons' water how?

    You mean besides that the Fury of the Brandstorm is something generated by Kralk's magic, while the sulphuric water is a wholly natural reaction to being in a volcano? One comes from the dragon, the other doesn't.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    "The singular Stone Dwarf expanded nothing on the dwarves as a whole, and was just a remote one off like Odgen is" "the continued exploration of Vlast, Glint, Glint's Lair, the Dragonblood Spear, etc" - guess what else is a remote one off? I mean, the Glint's Lair, Vlast, and Glint - they were one and done characters and locations. The Dragonsblood Spear could be argued the same, in all honesty.

    Except Rhoban was literally a one off in S3, that had nothing to do with the overall plot, or even Primordus. Whereas Glint, Vlast, Glint's Lair, the Dragonblood Spear, Kesho, and Aurene, all tied directly into the main quest of Path of Fire. All were things Balthazar was after in his war to kill Kralk, and absorb his power, and were tied to Kralk as a result. Its literal apples and oranges comaprison.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Doesn't that rather contradict your earlier statements and support my argument that there wasn't that much buildup for Kralk and that there's enough room for Primordus? I mean, if only one episode properly built up Kralkatorrik, then why are four episodes not enough for Primordus?

    Because, again, Kralk got substantial buildup in Path of Fire beforehand. Balthazar may have been the final boss of Path of Fire, but Balthazar was chasing down Kralk, and the actual plot was about covering all of the major Kralk lore points in an attempt to stop Balthazar. Four episodes would be enough for Primordus if Primordus had gotten any sort of substantial buildup in a previous expansion. He hasn't.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Jormag has been showing itself to be acting in two different but predictable manners.
    Little different from Kralkatorrik vs. Kralkatorrik's Torment.

    I would disagree with this statement. Jormag's actions throughout the whole narrative have been too premeditated, and methodical, to be the result of torment. Nor has its actions been in any way contradictory, or suggesting two conflicting mindsets at play. Its actions have been wholly consistent throughout, and in line with its nature as the dragon of persuasion. Its just a giant liar, and manipulator, saying things we want to hear in order to lull us into self doubt. Its trying to weaken us, mentally, emotionally, and physically, to make us easier targets in the long run. This is the same stunt it pulled on Asgeir, leading Asgeir to wonder later in life if Jormag just played him because he know Asgeir could have won. Jormag is already doing it with Braham, aka Asgeir 2.0. We see this in our fight with the whisper, and again at the end of episode 4. Making Braham doubt himself, and making Brahamn doubt the need for one of them to kill each other. Not to mention, Jormag point blank states in the newest Bangar conversation that it isn't suffering from torment like Kralk is. Could be another lie, but its not being tormented would be consistent with what we have seen.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Hell, "gathering our forces" is ALWAYS done off-screen between episodes. "our forces" are always just there and present.

    This is just completely untrue. Both the base game fight against Zhaitan, and the fight against Kralk, had very obvious, and seen, force rallying story sections. Hell, that was the whole point of the Sunspear Sanctuary buildup in S4.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    There is no way that "Jormag's Enemy" and "Jormag's Secret" won't be involved in the future plot. The rest of the season won't be focused solely on eliminating Jormag. Four episodes is just too much for all that after all the focus Jormag got in Episodes 1+2+4.

    Sure they will, just like Kralk's "mother" will likely be involved in the "future" plot, aka, post the season it was introduced, as a future threat on the horizon. Jormag's enemy will be a prelude to why we should be so fearful of Primordus when his story comes up(assuming it is Primordus)

    And look at how episodes 1-4 went. Both were one narrative split into two episodes. Episode 1/2 covered the Jormag whisper manipulation plot, while 3/4 were the Charr civil war plot(with other side things progressed in those plots) The final bosses of episodes 1 and 3 were just sub bosses(Fraenir, and Steel Warband) for the larger boss of that narrative(Drakkar and Bangar)

    By this same pattern, episodes 5/6 and 7/8 will be one plot split across two episodes. 7/8 being the "take the fight to Jormag" plot, and, if we look at Dragon's Stand, and Dragonfall, neither of those maps/connected stories had really big lore reveals, except right at the end. The story there was just lots of "smash the dragon" military action. I don't really expect episodes 7/8 to be big lore wise, mostly just doing to be military action steps. That leaves episodes 5/6 to cover to cover all the actual remaining lore bits of IBS, from the Charr leadership, the spirits, Braham, the prophecy, getting the bow back, etc, and all of that will likely be tied to some narrative of Jormag coming out of the Mists somewhere to try to do something, us going there to stop it, maybe have Ryland be the big boss of episode 6.

    With whatever plan Jormag tries to enact in 5/6 stopped, the lore reveals we get there, and whatever magical mcguffins we find, we will be in the position to take the fight to the dragon directly, leading to the big military campaign in episodes 7/8. Episode 8 will end with some big lore reveal about something, and either lead into EoD, or set up for maybe a EoD prologue chapter. Or at least it will be narrative set up they sit on until Primordus' story comes up.

    If Primordus comes up at all in IBS, it will be in episodes 5/6, with Jormag doing something like trying to take advantage of Pri's hibernation to kill it, and remove his biggest enemy. But we will almost certainly stop that from happening, and, in the process, get weaponized Primordus juice to use against Jormag in 7/8. Primordus won't be narratively dealt with, he'll just be a background feature in the Jormag plot.

  • @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    "death/vine touched thing only applied to a handful of enemies" but yet "massive minion roster boost". Literally same thing on both cases.

    No. Compare the number of types of Risen, Icebrood, Branded, and Mordrem, to Destroyers. Its not even close.

    Exclude the branded that show up in the last three episodes of Season 4, especially the bounties that are just a uniquely named generic champion, and that Branded list becomes a hell of a lot closer to what we got for Primordus. Primordus' list of minion names was always on the shorter end of the stick, even at launch when there weren't many branded or icebrood, or in Season 2 when there weren't many mordrem. If Primordus were to get involved in the second half, then it'd grow exponentially, just like the rest.

    You mean besides that the Fury of the Brandstorm is something generated by Kralk's magic, while the sulphuric water is a wholly natural reaction to being in a volcano? One comes from the dragon, the other doesn't.

    The sulfiric water was caused by Primordus' presence. Devs confirmed it.

    Because, again, Kralk got substantial buildup in Path of Fire beforehand. Balthazar may have been the final boss of Path of Fire, but Balthazar was chasing down Kralk, and the actual plot was about covering all of the major Kralk lore points in an attempt to stop Balthazar. Four episodes would be enough for Primordus if Primordus had gotten any sort of substantial buildup in a previous expansion. He hasn't.

    Hardly. Everything you talked about isn't tied to Kralkatorrik, it's tied to Aurene - who was involved in Mordremoth's plot too. Aurene, Glint's Legacy - these are only marginally tied to Kralkatorrik. But they're equally tied to Primordus and Mordremoth.

    Just like Primordus in Season 3, Kralkatorrik was merely a distant presence in Path of Fire.

    This is just completely untrue. Both the base game fight against Zhaitan, and the fight against Kralk, had very obvious, and seen, force rallying story sections. Hell, that was the whole point of the Sunspear Sanctuary buildup in S4.

    It was very much true in the fight against Kralkatorrik. We weren't involved in the forces showing up in Thunderhead Peak nor in the forces showing up in Dragonfall, because we were busy elsewhere doing other things. They showed up in those places while we were off in the Mists.

    The Sunspear Sanctuary had nothing to do with building forces to fight Kralkatorrik. It was, as the new name implies, a refuge for those under assault by Kralkatorrik's new powers.

    Sure they will, just like Kralk's "mother" will likely be involved in the "future" plot, aka, post the season it was introduced, as a future threat on the horizon. Jormag's enemy will be a prelude to why we should be so fearful of Primordus when his story comes up(assuming it is Primordus)

    If that were true, we'd be getting it at the end of the season, not mid-season. The situations are entirely different, because Kralkatorrik muttered "mother" with his last breath, while Jormag will be dealt with for four more episodes (at least) after we learn their secret and enemy.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 3, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Exclude the

    No. If you have to use the argument of "well, take away everything that contradicts me" to make a point, your point is bad.

    The sulfiric water was caused by Primordus' presence. Devs confirmed it.

    No indication in the episode itself, and it hasn't been used across mutliple maps like the Brandstorm, and Jormag's ice storms, have.

    Hardly. Everything you talked about isn't tied to Kralkatorrik, it's tied to Aurene

    You mean the same Aurene who was the fundamental key to defeating Kralk, and was the focus of Balthazar in Path of Fire after Vlast died for the same reason? Aurene's plot is part of the Kralk plot they are fundamentally tied together. Just as Balthazar and Kralk's plots were.

    The Sunspear Sanctuary had nothing to do with building forces to fight Kralkatorrik. It was, as the new name implies, a refuge for those under assault by Kralkatorrik's new powers.

    This is just demonstrably wrong. The whole point of the Sun's Refuge achievements was to bring everyone together to create a force to combat Kralk. You help build up the Sunspears, get them and the Awakened on friendlier terms, and have the Pact right outside. There is even NPC dialog in the sun's Refuge where people talk about how crowded its getting, and that it shows all of Elona is banding together to fight Kralk. And low and behold, the Sunspears, Awakened(in the Crystal Bloom), and the Pact, are key players in the fight against Kralk in the end. This is just basic narrative buildup.

    If that were true, we'd be getting it at the end of the season, not mid-season.

    Not at all. Foreshadowing, and narrative buildup, happens at whatever point in the story it makes the most sense to. Not always at the extreme end of the previous story. It makes sense to do it here because we wouldn't realistically have these sorts of in-depth conversations while we are bashing the dragon's face in(episodes 7/8), and Jormag might not be directly present in episodes 5/6. Having it now, just after he created a new "voice", and we are in a lull, makes sense.

    This isn't even getting into how neither the Zhaitan, Mordremoth, or Kralk, stories had us fighting two dragons at once. So the established pattern doesn't suggest they would suddenly do it now. Likewise, the one major narrative reason to bring Primrodus in, that we need his power to fight Jormag because that is Jormag's weakness, has already been hand waved out with the assertions that Braham, wielding a weapon infused with Jotun fire magic, and channeling the power of the Spirits of the Wild, can kill Jormag. As Asgeir could have using the same in the past had Jormag not mentally broken him.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 3, 2020

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Exclude the

    No. If you have to use the argument of "well, take away everything that contradicts me" to make a point, your point is bad.

    It's not contradicting me. We're talking about Primordus' minion type count before he is the primary antagonist and you're comparing this to the other Elder Dragons which have been primary antagonists. So obviously, counting the minions that show up in the final confrontation shouldn't be part of the comparison. Doing so makes your argument a strawman.

    The sulfiric water was caused by Primordus' presence. Devs confirmed it.

    No indication in the episode itself, and it hasn't been used across mutliple maps like the Brandstorm, and Jormag's ice storms, have.

    Because it's an effect of Primordus' direct presence.

    Hardly. Everything you talked about isn't tied to Kralkatorrik, it's tied to Aurene

    You mean the same Aurene who was the fundamental key to defeating Kralk, and was the focus of Balthazar in Path of Fire after Vlast died for the same reason? Aurene's plot is part of the Kralk plot they are fundamentally tied together. Just as Balthazar and Kralk's plots were.

    That's rather proof of my argument more than yours. Aurene was the core plot in these elements, not Kralkatorrik.

    The Sunspear Sanctuary had nothing to do with building forces to fight Kralkatorrik. It was, as the new name implies, a refuge for those under assault by Kralkatorrik's new powers.

    This is just demonstrably wrong. The whole point of the Sun's Refuge achievements was to bring everyone together to create a force to combat Kralk. You help build up the Sunspears, get them and the Awakened on friendlier terms, and have the Pact right outside. There is even NPC dialog in the sun's Refuge where people talk about how crowded its getting, and that it shows all of Elona is banding together to fight Kralk. And low and behold, the Sunspears, Awakened(in the Crystal Bloom), and the Pact, are key players in the fight against Kralk in the end. This is just basic narrative buildup.

    Crowded... with refugees. Which is the pivotal point of the golden path of Episode 4. Unless you're thinking we built an army out of villagers (we didn't). You need to replay Episode 4:

    Taimi: Okay. We need to take everyone somewhere...deep underground or something so we can form a plan. Somewhere like...uh...
    Koss Dejarin: Hey. Gimme that thing.
    Taimi: Koss—!
    Koss Dejarin: How does this even work— Hello? Commander?
    Koss Dejarin: I know a place. Old Sunspear sanctuary from long ago. Probably been abandoned for years. For years!

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Chaos_Theory#Dialogue

    Koss Dejarin: There. This place has a new purpose. Feels like it needs a new name. I hereby declare thee...Sun's Refuge!

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Legacy#Dialogue

    We went there to make a refugee camp from Kralkatorrik's attack. Sure, there were some people recruited for fighting Kralkatorrik but this is mainly limited to the djinn, who was just finding a better defense against Kralk. Everyone else? It was to give them shelter. The Pact weren't even involved with Sun's Refuge - they just happened to crash outside it when chasing the Death-Branded Shatterer.

    This isn't even getting into how neither the Zhaitan, Mordremoth, or Kralk, stories had us fighting two dragons at once. So the established pattern doesn't suggest they would suddenly do it now. Likewise, the one major narrative reason to bring Primrodus in, that we need his power to fight Jormag because that is Jormag's weakness, has already been hand waved out with the assertions that Braham, wielding a weapon infused with Jotun fire magic, and channeling the power of the Spirits of the Wild, can kill Jormag. As Asgeir could have using the same in the past had Jormag not mentally broken him.

    Those dragons don't have another Elder Dragon as their unique weakness. Jormag and Primordus already have an established pattern through Season 3 where both need to be dealt with at the same time, or using one to deal with the other.

    And Braham's bow is decidedly in the hands of the enemies, so it isn't hand waved out, not by a long shot (and this is assuming it's even capable of actually landing fatal blows to Jormag which is unproven). ANd channeling the power of the Spirits of the Wild has not been established at being capable of killing Jormag - Drakkar != Jormag, as Drakkar was kept alive through the Lost Spirits, which is why they could kill it. Take away life support (Lost Spirits) and the patient (Drakkar) dies.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Exclude the

    No. If you have to use the argument of "well, take away everything that contradicts me" to make a point, your point is bad.

    The sulfiric water was caused by Primordus' presence. Devs confirmed it.

    No indication in the episode itself, and it hasn't been used across mutliple maps like the Brandstorm, and Jormag's ice storms, have.

    Hardly. Everything you talked about isn't tied to Kralkatorrik, it's tied to Aurene

    You mean the same Aurene who was the fundamental key to defeating Kralk, and was the focus of Balthazar in Path of Fire after Vlast died for the same reason? Aurene's plot is part of the Kralk plot they are fundamentally tied together. Just as Balthazar and Kralk's plots were.

    The Sunspear Sanctuary had nothing to do with building forces to fight Kralkatorrik. It was, as the new name implies, a refuge for those under assault by Kralkatorrik's new powers.

    This is just demonstrably wrong. The whole point of the Sun's Refuge achievements was to bring everyone together to create a force to combat Kralk. You help build up the Sunspears, get them and the Awakened on friendlier terms, and have the Pact right outside. There is even NPC dialog in the sun's Refuge where people talk about how crowded its getting, and that it shows all of Elona is banding together to fight Kralk. And low and behold, the Sunspears, Awakened(in the Crystal Bloom), and the Pact, are key players in the fight against Kralk in the end. This is just basic narrative buildup.

    If that were true, we'd be getting it at the end of the season, not mid-season.

    Not at all. Foreshadowing, and narrative buildup, happens at whatever point in the story it makes the most sense to. Not always at the extreme end of the previous story. It makes sense to do it here because we wouldn't realistically have these sorts of in-depth conversations while we are bashing the dragon's face in(episodes 7/8), and Jormag might not be directly present in episodes 5/6. Having it now, just after he created a new "voice", and we are in a lull, makes sense.

    This isn't even getting into how neither the Zhaitan, Mordremoth, or Kralk, stories had us fighting two dragons at once. So the established pattern doesn't suggest they would suddenly do it now. Likewise, the one major narrative reason to bring Primrodus in, that we need his power to fight Jormag because that is Jormag's weakness, has already been hand waved out with the assertions that Braham, wielding a weapon infused with Jotun fire magic, and channeling the power of the Spirits of the Wild, can kill Jormag. As Asgeir could have using the same in the past had Jormag not mentally broken him.

    What if we wake up Primordus? And basically set him loose against Jormag, seeing as he beat jormag once with help he could likely kill the beast. Primo also seems the LEAST interested in mortal affairs in modern years; Almost as if he sees it as beneath him. His destroyers sure do attack people but they aren't doing it for the same evil purposes many of the others are; In modern times it seems like they are just hunting for magic. Like I Said in a post above Primo "could've" killed us once we chased balth off of him, but he didn't and just left us there. I feel like having the saga go off with a "Aurene makes friends with primo, and primo squares up to jormag" would be a good way to redeeming primo and having it be revealed that since he is "Earth" he is more connected to tyria and thus doesn't suffer many of the ales and aspirations of his kin.

    I also like the idea of primo being done with in this living world saga, as jormag is his enemy so he has a stake in this. Bringing him in would be very simple too for example lets go with the scenario for a moment. The stone summit that remain charge into a battle we are having with the icebrood, bringing weapons and might we didn't have and come to basically parlay with us. Primo has mentally told them through a psychic link that he wants to team up with us to put jormag down as he knows jormag is coming for him; We hesitantly agree and with the help of aurene basically wake him up similar to how scarlet did with mordemoth. When jormag enters the fray and we confront it wherever it goes (Im banking on it being in the isles of janthir or near there) Primo comes busting up and smashes into jormag; We as aurenes champions then aim to find ryland.. Mainly due to something about their connection or something they had done making jormag stronger due to ryland, and ryland is helping to injure primo. We square up with ryland and for the first time have an honest fight with him; Or rytlock fights him while we fight someone or something else. (Could even be Svanir as jormag is in the mists, perhaps it fetches him to "help") So you have three fights going on, which is the ryland vs rytlock, the us vs whatever and then in the background of the map/story you have jormag vs Primo. Making this our Kaiju battle moment with Aurene being in support trying to ensure neither of them kill one another while we deal with the bs Jormag has set up.

    Now is this likely? no. Honestly I think we are just gonna end em both some how with aurenes help despite my want for BOTH of them to not be the status quo.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    We're talking about Primordus' minion type count before he is the primary antagonist

    Except your whole argument thus far is that Primrodus has gotten so much central time already, while Kralk got little in PoF, that we can kill him and Jormag off in the next few episodes and be done with it, which would necessitate Primordus has had the development to be on the same level of development as the other dragons, which he isn't. Even if you remove "War Eternal" from the mix, Prmordus has nowhere near the level of creature diversity as Kralk.

    Because it's an effect of Primordus' direct presence.

    And its been used all of once compared to the mutiple maps using the other dragon's abilities. And its als not even something pointed out i nthe narrative to be of Primordus, unlike the others.

    That's rather proof of my argument more than yours. Aurene was the core plot in these elements, not Kralkatorrik.

    Also incorrect. Kralkatorik was the core plot in all these elements, as all of this was targeted to defeating and replacing him. Be it part of Glint's plan, Balthazar's ambition, or our own agenda, all of these plots elements were centered around Kralk.

    Sure, there were some people recruited for fighting Kralkatorrik but this is mainly limited to the djinn, who was just finding a better defense against Kralk. Everyone else? It was to give them shelter.

    Uh huh

    • All those Sunspear recruits that came there due to the recruitment poster we put up
    • All the Pact soldiers there
    • The Djinn
    • Zafirah

    Yep, all of them are there as refugees from Kralk... except, no, they aren't. Sun's Refuges started off as a refugee camp, but, if you actually do all the achievements(which I can only guess you haven't?) the overwhelming majority of NPCs in Sun's Refuge are there as part of military buildup, while the Refugee's are just one corner of it. And they make it clear you are doing this as part of a military buildup effort to combat Kralk. Like, I really don't understand your desire to argue something so basic.

    Those dragons don't have another Elder Dragon as their unique weakness. Jormag and Primordus already have an established pattern through Season 3 where both need to be dealt with at the same time, or using one to deal with the other.

    Except as you yourself have pointed out more then once, the game has already shown us that Zhaitan and Mordremoth magics work against each other. Showing that the "each other's weakness" thing isn't exclusive to Jormag and Primordus. Also, S3 didn't say we NEED to deal with them both at the same time, it said it would be a good idea to given what we know about their weaknesses, and given that we had a machine that could do it. This is not only a misrepresentation of your own past argument(seemingly for the same of debating everything for no reason... again), but also a blatant misrepresentation of what was said in S3.

    And Braham's bow is decidedly in the hands of the enemies, so it isn't hand waved out, not by a long shot (and this is assuming it's even capable of actually landing fatal blows to Jormag which is unproven). And channeling the power of the Spirits of the Wild has not been established at being capable of killing Jormag - Drakkar != Jormag, as Drakkar was kept alive through the Lost Spirits, which is why they could kill it. Take away life support (Lost Spirits) and the patient (Drakkar) dies.

    A. Are you seriously suggesting that we wont get the bow back before the end of the season? I know you know better then that.
    B. You need to brush up more on the Asgeir legend, the book "A Burden", and everything that has happened with Braham thus far.

    Asgeir mentions he was able to slay Jormag's champion Frostfang in a single blow only because the Spirits channeled their power through him, just as they did Braham when we fought Drakkar. Asgeir also mentions he feels like he could have beaten Jormag, had he fought through the pain and exhaustion. Braham has already

    • Been set up to be a Norn of prophecy
    • Been explicitly told he needs to kill Jormag, or Jormag will kill him. Asgeir was stated to have been killed by Jormag.
    • Gotten a weapon enchanted with Jotun fire magic, like Asgeir's.
    • Gotten the power of the Lost Spirits to defeat Drakker, like Asgeir did Frostfang.
    • Gotten the other minor Spirits to recognize him as being worthy

    Like they have pretty heavy handedly shoved this into the player's face since the beginning. The whole point of Brahamn's arc in this is that hes Asgeir 2.0, except hes not going to wimp out like Asgeir did. They have already established mortal hero + enchanted weapon + power of the Spirits = being able to defeat Jormag. This is part of the reason why everyone is after the bow as well.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 3, 2020

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    What if we wake up Primordus?

    This would be the worst option possible.

    Zhaitan, Mordremoth, Kralk, and Jormag, have all corrupted the living to expand their forces/territory, and generally seem to WANT to corrupt the living to do so, despite being able to make purely elemental minions out of nothing.

    Primrodus on the other hand is the exact opposite. He has never directly corrupted a living being that we know of, and makes no effort to corrupt the land around him either. Primordus is the one least involved with mortal affairs, only because he is the one most intrested in simply burning the whole world down. Primordus is quite possibly the WORST of the Elder Dragons due to this, the greatest of evils. Arguably even more psychotic then Kralk was, because, even with his torment, Kralk wasn't that genocidal.

    Primordus is easily the LAST dragon you want awake, period. If anything, if Jormag seriously offers us the chance to kill Priomordus, we should take it, then immediately turn around kill Jormag after. As little as you should trust Jormag, you should trust Primordus even LESS.

    This is also why I suspect Primrodus will be last.

  • DSD dragon minions may very well unexpectedly pop up in the Shiverpeaks first and foremost, having used the tunnels the Dredge dug to Cantha 250 odd years ago.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 3, 2020

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    We're talking about Primordus' minion type count before he is the primary antagonist

    Except your whole argument thus far is that Primrodus has gotten so much central time already, while Kralk got little in PoF, that we can kill him and Jormag off in the next few episodes and be done with it, which would necessitate Primordus has had the development to be on the same level of development as the other dragons, which he isn't. Even if you remove "War Eternal" from the mix, Prmordus has nowhere near the level of creature diversity as Kralk.

    No, my argument has been that Primordus has gotten enough central time in Season 3, equivalent to how much Kralk got in PoF or Mordy got in S2, that the next two episodes can split focus on Jormag and Primordus with the last two being all about killing Primordus. Especially if the last intermission between 6 and 7 is about Primordus too, even if partially.

    That's rather proof of my argument more than yours. Aurene was the core plot in these elements, not Kralkatorrik.

    Also incorrect. Kralkatorik was the core plot in all these elements, as all of this was targeted to defeating and replacing him. Be it part of Glint's plan, Balthazar's ambition, or our own agenda, all of these plots elements were centered around Kralk.

    No, Kralkatorrik was not. Kralkatorrik had no involvement in Season 3.

    From Season 2 to Season 4, there was a subplot running: Aurene's plot. This plot interconnected with whatever main plot was going on, but it was still its own subplot.

    Kralkatorrik's plot was a minor subplot only for PoF and the first half of S4, and only became a main plot in the second half of S4 - something which you agreed with earlier - and the mentions of Glint's Legacy are as related to Kralkatorrik's plot as they are to Mordremoth's plot in Season 2 and HoT, or as related to Primordus and Balthazar in Season 3.

    Kralkatorrik's plot was not present in Season 2, Heart of Thorns, or Season 3. Aurene's plot was, and continued into PoF. Within PoF, Aurene's plot and Kralkatorrik's plot are entirely separated and only conjoin in Season 4's second half.

    As Sadizi pointed out, the purpose of Glint's Legacy isn't to replace Kralkatorrik. It's to replace all six Elder Dragons. That Kralkatorrik was the first one replaced was ultimately a coincidence - could have easily been decided to be Primordus or Jormag by ANet.

    Sure, there were some people recruited for fighting Kralkatorrik but this is mainly limited to the djinn, who was just finding a better defense against Kralk. Everyone else? It was to give them shelter.

    Uh huh

    • All those Sunspear recruits that came there due to the recruitment poster we put up
    • All the Pact soldiers there
    • The Djinn
    • Zafirah

    Yep, all of them are there as refugees from Kralk... except, no, they aren't. Sun's Refuges started off as a refugee camp, but, if you actually do all the achievements(which I can only guess you haven't?) the overwhelming majority of NPCs in Sun's Refuge are there as part of military buildup, while the Refugee's are just one corner of it. And they make it clear you are doing this as part of a military buildup effort to combat Kralk. Like, I really don't understand your desire to argue something so basic.

    • Was for protecting the people of Elona, not fighitng Kralkatorrik.
    • Happened to be there when chasing the Death-Branded Shatterer and had nothing to do with establishing Sun's Refuge. The few inside were taking refuge from the Brandstorms.
    • I mentioned the djinn, she is the exception
    • Zafirah wasn't staying in Sun's Refuge for attacking Kralkatorrik, she was there for Aurene.

    Except as you yourself have pointed out more then once, the game has already shown us that Zhaitan and Mordremoth magics work against each other.

    Something that was never part of their plot, unlike this time, and while the magics seem to work against each other, they're not each other's unique weakness which is critical.

    Unless we find out that Taimi was wrong (entirely possible, but not yet hinted at), then we will need Primordus' magic to slay Jormag and vice versa. And like the fake Dragonsblood spears, expensive imitations like a fire god's sword or jotun fire magic will be enough to harm, but not kill, Jormag.

    A. Are you seriously suggesting that we wont get the bow back before the end of the season? I know you know better then that.
    B. You need to brush up more on the Asgeir legend, the book "A Burden", and everything that has happened with Braham thus far.

    A. That is an entire popssibility. Next time we see it, it very well may be the "Sanguinary Bow" for all we know.
    B. No, I don't, because even Asgeir's legend and "everything that has happened so far" with Braham has not shown that the Spirits of the Wild can kill Jormag. Asgeir was able to kill Frostfang in a single blow because of the jotun scroll he had. Same reason he could break Jormag's tusk. Asgeir being able to beat Jormag or not is intentionally left open, just because he felt maybe he could have doesn't mean he actually could have - it is a sign of his self doubt about his decision to relent on his attacks.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • im all for the idea that anet has already thought of a new storyline for after the dragons, and is slowly dripfeeding the game with tiny clues about this new enemy, the darkness in the new fractal, mist warrior outfit

    about shiro's deadwail, the cinematic showed it as a giant black mushroom cloud with purple lightning, i know the lore says its dwayna's magic in a corrupted form and thats why does the opposite of what you expect from dwayna, removing life (petrified) instead of giving life, there could still be some other force from the mists at work here

    didnt anet once mentioned that they use purple ro show of evil?, wich can explain the purple lightning

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 4, 2020

    @Amanda Whitemoon.6173 said:
    im all for the idea that anet has already thought of a new storyline for after the dragons, and is slowly dripfeeding the game with tiny clues about this new enemy, the darkness in the new fractal, mist warrior outfit

    about shiro's deadwail, the cinematic showed it as a giant black mushroom cloud with purple lightning, i know the lore says its dwayna's magic in a corrupted form and thats why does the opposite of what you expect from dwayna, removing life (petrified) instead of giving life, there could still be some other force from the mists at work here

    Abaddon's Margonites had purple magical body parts, so it's plausible to assume that the purple lightning could have been his magic.
    But we also know that Lightning magic, which is belongs to air magic, is purple in GW2 (I don't recall the particle effect colours in GW1, but the icons are red).
    Since (human) air magic comes from Dwayna, the purple lightning could just be her stolen magic.

    didnt anet once mentioned that they use purple ro show of evil?

    They merely hinted at it with Abaddon's Margonites.

    And then you have Mesmers, who mostly use purple magic.
    We all know that Mesmers, with their mind trickery and manipulative tendencies, usually aren't the nicest bunch.
    A prime example for this would be Anise.

  • radda.8920radda.8920 Member ✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    What if we wake up Primordus?

    This would be the worst option possible.

    Zhaitan, Mordremoth, Kralk, and Jormag, have all corrupted the living to expand their forces/territory, and generally seem to WANT to corrupt the living to do so, despite being able to make purely elemental minions out of nothing.

    Primrodus on the other hand is the exact opposite. He has never directly corrupted a living being that we know of, and makes no effort to corrupt the land around him either. Primordus is the one least involved with mortal affairs, only because he is the one most intrested in simply burning the whole world down. Primordus is quite possibly the WORST of the Elder Dragons due to this, the greatest of evils. Arguably even more psychotic then Kralk was, because, even with his torment, Kralk wasn't that genocidal.

    Primordus is easily the LAST dragon you want awake, period. If anything, if Jormag seriously offers us the chance to kill Priomordus, we should take it, then immediately turn around kill Jormag after. As little as you should trust Jormag, you should trust Primordus even LESS.

    This is also why I suspect Primrodus will be last.

    it's a matter of perspective. I find it much more cruel to corrupt living things and use them as toys for eternity by having them kill their own people.
    At least primordius seeks to simply kill living beings and allows them to join the mists without becoming puppets

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 4, 2020

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Amanda Whitemoon.6173 said:
    didnt anet once mentioned that they use purple ro show of evil?

    They merely hinted at it with Abaddon's Margonites.

    And then you have Mesmers, who mostly use purple magic.
    We all know that Mesmers, with their mind trickery and manipulative tendencies, usually aren't the nicest bunch.
    A prime example for this would be Anise.

    Jeff Grubb said that purple was the color of evil in GW when asked if there was any relation between Kralkatorrik and Abaddon due to the heavy use of purple by both, back in 2010 when the Gamescom demo first revealed the Dragonbrand. It was basically Jeff saying "they're not related except through both being evil".

    We also see purple highlights coming in with Mordremoth's, Zhaitan's, and Jormag's heaviest corrupted areas.

    I am not sure if this was a design aesthetic back during Factions though. But purple lightning = evil lightning certainly does fit the running theme.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    Honestly, I find it entirely possible that literally nothing in Icebrood Saga will lead to Cantha. Instead, IBS will end, then we will get some sort of prologue chapter like "stuff going down in the Dominion of Winds and the Tengu are letting people in to help" and we will get some small map in the Dominion of Winds, and thats were we will get our first taste of Canthan-like stuff(outside of the fractal), and that leads to the Tengu wanting to return to Cantha or w/e.

    Is a possibility, since in IBS they introduced the "extra chapter"/"extra content" concept(Steel and Fire).

    main pvp: Khel the Undead(power reaper).

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 5, 2020

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    What if we wake up Primordus?

    This would be the worst option possible.

    Zhaitan, Mordremoth, Kralk, and Jormag, have all corrupted the living to expand their forces/territory, and generally seem to WANT to corrupt the living to do so, despite being able to make purely elemental minions out of nothing.

    Primrodus on the other hand is the exact opposite. He has never directly corrupted a living being that we know of, and makes no effort to corrupt the land around him either. Primordus is the one least involved with mortal affairs, only because he is the one most intrested in simply burning the whole world down. Primordus is quite possibly the WORST of the Elder Dragons due to this, the greatest of evils. Arguably even more psychotic then Kralk was, because, even with his torment, Kralk wasn't that genocidal.

    Primordus is easily the LAST dragon you want awake, period. If anything, if Jormag seriously offers us the chance to kill Priomordus, we should take it, then immediately turn around kill Jormag after. As little as you should trust Jormag, you should trust Primordus even LESS.

    This is also why I suspect Primrodus will be last.

    Another more practical reason is that they recently came out of a 'fire' themed expansion, pushing people to fight againt another "pyromaniac super entity" would be tiring.

    main pvp: Khel the Undead(power reaper).

  • Kodama.6453Kodama.6453 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Amanda Whitemoon.6173 said:
    didnt anet once mentioned that they use purple ro show of evil?

    They merely hinted at it with Abaddon's Margonites.

    And then you have Mesmers, who mostly use purple magic.
    We all know that Mesmers, with their mind trickery and manipulative tendencies, usually aren't the nicest bunch.
    A prime example for this would be Anise.

    Jeff Grubb said that purple was the color of evil in GW when asked if there was any relation between Kralkatorrik and Abaddon due to the heavy use of purple by both, back in 2010 when the Gamescom demo first revealed the Dragonbrand. It was basically Jeff saying "they're not related except through both being evil".

    We also see purple highlights coming in with Mordremoth's, Zhaitan's, and Jormag's heaviest corrupted areas.

    I am not sure if this was a design aesthetic back during Factions though. But purple lightning = evil lightning certainly does fit the running theme.

    I don't think that he meant that purple is the colour of evil with that quote.
    At least how you described it here "they're not related except through both being evil", he just wanted to point out that it might be a coincidence that both are purple and the only relation between them is that they are evil, but that does not mean that purple is evil per se.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 5, 2020

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Amanda Whitemoon.6173 said:
    didnt anet once mentioned that they use purple ro show of evil?

    They merely hinted at it with Abaddon's Margonites.

    And then you have Mesmers, who mostly use purple magic.
    We all know that Mesmers, with their mind trickery and manipulative tendencies, usually aren't the nicest bunch.
    A prime example for this would be Anise.

    Jeff Grubb said that purple was the color of evil in GW when asked if there was any relation between Kralkatorrik and Abaddon due to the heavy use of purple by both, back in 2010 when the Gamescom demo first revealed the Dragonbrand. It was basically Jeff saying "they're not related except through both being evil".

    We also see purple highlights coming in with Mordremoth's, Zhaitan's, and Jormag's heaviest corrupted areas.

    I am not sure if this was a design aesthetic back during Factions though. But purple lightning = evil lightning certainly does fit the running theme.

    I don't think that he meant that purple is the colour of evil with that quote.
    At least how you described it here "they're not related except through both being evil", he just wanted to point out that it might be a coincidence that both are purple and the only relation between them is that they are evil, but that does not mean that purple is evil per se.

    Don't have a link to the original, but luckily google was able to find me a discussion that quoted it: https://archive.guildwarslegacy.com/18/00063 Glint, The Mystery of the Gods, & Kuunavang (Spoilers_).001.html So the original wording is:

    Q: A little controversial discussion since Nightfall: Is Abbadon still alive in some form? And while on the topic of Abbadon, a lot of people have been comparing the Branded of Kralkatorrik to the Margonites of Abbadon. Is there a connection between them outside of the color purple?

    A: Basically the gods have stepped back. They've let humanity go forward on their own. They are still part of the world in the way that there's still worship but they aren't interfering as much as they were back in those days. The fact that Abbadon's minions had that purplish glow and what we're seeing in the crystal is as far as I know. Coincidental because purple is of course, the color of evil. The fact that there is some similarity-- dragon's contain a lot of power. And the nature of that power comes to the surface. Not all dragon minions are purple in nature. So there's no definitive link between Abbadon and Kralkatorrik.

    So it was that it was "coincidence", but it was coincidence because "purple is the color of evil".

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Akdeoni.4062Akdeoni.4062 Member ✭✭
    edited October 6, 2020

    I have a feeling "Imperial Cantha" silence/Xenophobic isolation attitude are not entirely a great news for our side, we might be facing an overwhelming invasion from "Imperial Cantha" this time, given the recent civil war noises up far in the north. Upfront target might be Elona/Istan(they are closer and are still recovering) or Domain of wind(old scores).

    likely using dragon and non-human extermination as an excuse and/or at the false pretense of sending humanitarian aid while actually executing overwhelming occupation forces, given the emperor himself might had alternative means or ways to channel/consume these runaway leyline/dragon energies for direct use(something down the Kormir line of ascension), this also reflect why in trailer the dragons themselves are threaten even far down south and their are seeking unlikely allies up north.. help to fight against something more hungrier and unstable than the dragons and gods combine.

  • Stephen.6312Stephen.6312 Member ✭✭✭

    @Akdeoni.4062 said:
    I have a feeling "Imperial Cantha" silence/Xenophobic isolation attitude are not entirely a great news for our side, we might be facing an overwhelming invasion from "Imperial Cantha" this time, given the recent civil war noises up far in the north. Upfront target might be Elona/Istan(they are closer and are still recovering) or Domain of wind(old scores).

    likely using dragon and non-human extermination as an excuse and/or at the false pretense of sending humanitarian aid while actually executing overwhelming occupation forces, given the emperor himself might had alternative means or ways to channel/consume these runaway leyline/dragon energies for direct use(something down the Kormir line of ascension), this also reflect why in trailer the dragons themselves are threaten even far down south and their are seeking unlikely allies up north.. help to fight against something more hungrier and unstable than the dragons and gods combine.

    I like where you're going with this. Particularly the idea that the Emperor may try to ascend. We don't know where the tradition of Canthan royal ascension comes from. Perhaps the ED cycle is the catalyst and the Elders are, inadvertedly, juicing up the Canthan leader?

    Want to delve into some theories about the lore and story of GW2? Check these posts out: The Search For Answers P1 and The Search For Answers P2.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @radda.8920 said:
    it's a matter of perspective. I find it much more cruel to corrupt living things and use them as toys for eternity by having them kill their own people.
    At least primordius seeks to simply kill living beings and allows them to join the mists without becoming puppets

    Sure, but the ultimate point was that Primordus seems to put the least value in mortal life of all the Elder Dragons. So awakening him to have him fight Jormag for us isn't a good idea. Primrodus would be the greater evil in that situation.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @radda.8920 said:
    it's a matter of perspective. I find it much more cruel to corrupt living things and use them as toys for eternity by having them kill their own people.
    At least primordius seeks to simply kill living beings and allows them to join the mists without becoming puppets

    Sure, but the ultimate point was that Primordus seems to put the least value in mortal life of all the Elder Dragons. So awakening him to have him fight Jormag for us isn't a good idea. Primrodus would be the greater evil in that situation.

    And really since Primordus does not need living beings for minions, it fits into his goal as being the dragon of destruction and fire, with his goal to really have Tyria covered in lava and magma, gorging on magic.

  • Akdeoni.4062Akdeoni.4062 Member ✭✭
    edited October 16, 2020

    @Stephen.6312 said:

    @Akdeoni.4062 said:
    I have a feeling "Imperial Cantha" silence/Xenophobic isolation attitude are not entirely a great news for our side, we might be facing an overwhelming invasion from "Imperial Cantha" this time, given the recent civil war noises up far in the north. Upfront target might be Elona/Istan(they are closer and are still recovering) or Domain of wind(old scores).

    likely using dragon and non-human extermination as an excuse and/or at the false pretense of sending humanitarian aid while actually executing overwhelming occupation forces, given the emperor himself might had alternative means or ways to channel/consume these runaway leyline/dragon energies for direct use(something down the Kormir line of ascension), this also reflect why in trailer the dragons themselves are threaten even far down south and their are seeking unlikely allies up north.. help to fight against something more hungrier and unstable than the dragons and gods combine.

    I like where you're going with this. Particularly the idea that the Emperor may try to ascend. We don't know where the tradition of Canthan royal ascension comes from. Perhaps the ED cycle is the catalyst and the Elders are, inadvertedly, juicing up the Canthan leader?

    To juice it up a little here a slightly more holistic speculation for the cycles and the relationship of Tyria and Cantha. Just for reads.

    Of Cantha Ascension
    The records for the dragon empire emperor ascension as a requirement before becoming ascend to throne was surprising rather recent one, it is mentioned they get their source of ascension for pre-historical ancestral origin(it predates the current departed gods).

    Of the Origin of Ley-energies
    In fact, I had a strong suspicion the ascension rites in both Cantha and Tyria might be the addition conditioning the world to handle the ley-energies related balancing, on top of those born on the World of Tyria.

    Speculations of prior cycles
    As time passes this energies accumulated in a myriad of beings who are able to handle and these become the dragons, giants, seers, mursaats...as they consume more of these energies they create aspects to prevent others to conditioning these wild unstable energies, this in turn create a huge void thus starving the world of energies to maintain normal functional seasons without unstable energies intervention/devastations.

    Disaster happen when these powerful aspect beings dies, control over their aspect energies goes amok and can only be consume fast enough by those who are able to, else the world would revert to a mass of un-aspected chaotic mess.

    Speculations of nature of cycles
    This economy resulted in an energy starvation/void cycle. This allows conflict grow increasing in devastation. Some(giants) die out or shrunk(stone folks, human), while others(dragons) tide it out and slow down the lose of this energies waiting for another surge to happen, some(Seers, Mursaats, Forgotten) hold them in their respective aspect mist pockets be it memories or bloodstone. only allow a manageable amount to seep back to the world eventually, until the system comes into conflict.

    Of rite difference in Tyria and Cantha
    The last was a bit of the world returning to its original conditioning, this is where human and the current cycle of gods come about. They abide the ascension rites as it is original system to handle the energy transfer to those who can handle.

    The only difference is the Cantha rite source might root itself from an older aspect channeling cycle and strengthen by the current one. (This would be the speculated problem for EOD, elaborate later in "Speculations on the Cantha threat").

    While the Tyria/Elona ones uses the six gods as the aspect channeling cycle building on top of the older cycles including conditioning of the seers and mursaats.

    Of deeds of Gods
    Eventually, the gods uncovered and realized the problematic nature of these energies when some of their own begin to misbehave, most decide to the departure to get these huge and aspect energies they carry, but these was not entertain by those beloved by followers and those that can't part with their followers, and those who simply just brute force believing absorbing those energies, in strong believe he is an ultimate hero to save the day.

    And the happenings in GW1, shows the energy imbalance had grow more pronounce with both departing gods and weh no su "attempts"** to containing it, with one god endearment resulted in GW2 new cycle of excess of runaway energies, and all are in to contest state.

    Of Dragons and current affairs
    Surely, the dragons knew whats up, much like those departing gods they also have their way to handle/aspecting these energies in contest, some of them just aspecting these energies back to the world without consideration of the willingness of the rest of the world. While other dragons seeks a compromise believing the leftover energies are able to be contain by the remain lifeform without forcing aspect as cycles before.

    Speculations on the Cantha threat
    Given the earlier context it is likely Weh no su might eventually gone runaway, highly possibly grow into a "semi sentient mass of ley-energy hungry entity".
    In fact, they have a lot lesser aspect conditioning in compare to those in the north in part due to dragon aspecting huge reservoir(which is currently being overcapacited), plus the lesser amount lesser aspected beings(humans). As mentioned the northern surge might throw this system out its capacity of handle. And this might be how our story comes to play.

    Conclusion
    In Conclusion, these basic speculations are on arrangement of current available information, please study for your own pleasure.

  • @Stephen.6312 said:

    @Akdeoni.4062 said:
    I have a feeling "Imperial Cantha" silence/Xenophobic isolation attitude are not entirely a great news for our side, we might be facing an overwhelming invasion from "Imperial Cantha" this time, given the recent civil war noises up far in the north. Upfront target might be Elona/Istan(they are closer and are still recovering) or Domain of wind(old scores).

    likely using dragon and non-human extermination as an excuse and/or at the false pretense of sending humanitarian aid while actually executing overwhelming occupation forces, given the emperor himself might had alternative means or ways to channel/consume these runaway leyline/dragon energies for direct use(something down the Kormir line of ascension), this also reflect why in trailer the dragons themselves are threaten even far down south and their are seeking unlikely allies up north.. help to fight against something more hungrier and unstable than the dragons and gods combine.

    I like where you're going with this. Particularly the idea that the Emperor may try to ascend. We don't know where the tradition of Canthan royal ascension comes from. Perhaps the ED cycle is the catalyst and the Elders are, inadvertedly, juicing up the Canthan leader?

    Uhm, yes we do:

    In the common tongue spoken in Tyria and modern Cantha, this is usually translated as "Ascendant Emperor." This is attributed to the fact that young princes of royal blood are expected to train in one or more of the heroic professions and ascend to a higher plane of awareness, a tradition begun with Chang Hai, a prince, Warrior,
    [...]
    The departure of the gods and the almost simultaneous gift of magic had a profound effect on all human cultures, especially those in Cantha. The heroic professions—their formal practices and requirements still in infancy—became widespread. The eldest prince of the imperial line, Chanang, defied the wishes of his father and chose to follow the hero's path. He studied the ways of the Warrior and spent four years at a remote temple on the island of Shing Jea learning the holy practices of the Monk. Then he set out to perform great deeds as a true hero of Cantha.

    Thanks to a small coterie of scribes that traveled with him, his exploits are still widely read in Cantha a thousand years later. Chanang became one of the first Canthan heroes to become Closer to the Stars (what in Tyria is referred to as "ascension") and, when the time came to succeed his father on the throne, he refused the title "lord emperor" and instead became the first "ascendant emperor," changing his name to Chang Hai. Since then, all emperors have been required—by family tradition if not actual law—to practice in at least two of the heroic professions. Today, Kisu is the 31st Canthan emperor, but is also the 20th ascendant emperor.

    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/An_Empire_Divided

    It's a tradition that is basically steeped in a famous ancient heroic figure who happened to be emperor's heir undergoing Weh no Su. An act that ultimately began with the Six Gods leaving the world and the gift of magic. Chang Hai, then Chanang, was basically an explorer in a world which suddenly gained magic, and became famous for that.

    Also, despite the shared term, Ascension has nothing to do with becoming a god or "Kormir's Ascension". It's a folly of ANet overusing common terminology, and nothing more.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Akdeoni.4062Akdeoni.4062 Member ✭✭
    edited October 18, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    It's a tradition that is basically steeped in a famous ancient heroic figure who happened to be emperor's heir undergoing Weh no Su. An act that ultimately began with the Six Gods leaving the world and the gift of magic. Chang Hai, then Chanang, was basically an explorer in a world which suddenly gained magic, and became famous for that.

    Also, despite the shared term, Ascension has nothing to do with becoming a god or "Kormir's Ascension". It's a folly of ANet overusing common terminology, and nothing more.

    Yes, the Canthan do perform Weh no Su for ascension rites, and I understand Kormir's ascension to godhood might be a different affair entirely, but again there are no direct stated distinction between the two are entirely different either, so I wouldn't dare claim ANet folly on that perhaps its really a very general term instead?

    3 points of speculation here are:

    1) A general speculation that ascension would simply means a being are now capable of handling an more than they are born with to be able to handle, regardless of the amount energy they actually form upon an aspect. In Komir case it might be more extreme immediate case, in part due to the situation in GW1 calls for it, but it was not perfect as we know in GW2.

    2) I believe the only mentions of Komir's ascension in Cantha was that they noted and celebrated the ascension. Before the rise of Orr and the cut off. There are no mentions that Weh no Su wasn't affected by it. That uncalled surge of energy, might led to improvise if not dangerously unstable "added on solutions" to current ascension rites due to red tape that Imperial Cantha are famous for, which is now further upset by all to mess in the north

    In respect to the above and the current affairs on Tyria, We can likely speculate the whole system had already been badly upset and unbalanced with dead dragons and dead gods, and Weh no Su being part of the system are likely not spared unaffected.

  • Stephen.6312Stephen.6312 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Stephen.6312 said:

    @Akdeoni.4062 said:
    I have a feeling "Imperial Cantha" silence/Xenophobic isolation attitude are not entirely a great news for our side, we might be facing an overwhelming invasion from "Imperial Cantha" this time, given the recent civil war noises up far in the north. Upfront target might be Elona/Istan(they are closer and are still recovering) or Domain of wind(old scores).

    likely using dragon and non-human extermination as an excuse and/or at the false pretense of sending humanitarian aid while actually executing overwhelming occupation forces, given the emperor himself might had alternative means or ways to channel/consume these runaway leyline/dragon energies for direct use(something down the Kormir line of ascension), this also reflect why in trailer the dragons themselves are threaten even far down south and their are seeking unlikely allies up north.. help to fight against something more hungrier and unstable than the dragons and gods combine.

    I like where you're going with this. Particularly the idea that the Emperor may try to ascend. We don't know where the tradition of Canthan royal ascension comes from. Perhaps the ED cycle is the catalyst and the Elders are, inadvertedly, juicing up the Canthan leader?

    Uhm, yes we do:

    Thank you for clarifying that, Konig.

    Want to delve into some theories about the lore and story of GW2? Check these posts out: The Search For Answers P1 and The Search For Answers P2.

  • Clyan.1593Clyan.1593 Member ✭✭✭

    Jormag flies over to cantha. We follow. EZ