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Speculations, how will all this lead to Cantha?

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  • borgs.6103borgs.6103 Member ✭✭✭

    @Clyan.1593 said:
    Jormag flies over to cantha. We follow. EZ

    Nah. Jormag, as it turns out is Ilya all along! She follows Primordus who lavatubes his way to Cantha to destroy her other half - Lyss, who is the Deep Sea Dragon all along! On the way, lava power melted the majority of the Jade Sea which finally opened Cantha to outsiders. It all ends with a 2 v 1 Dragon Gods vs. Primordus but all three died and the commander and Taimi ascends to become the new Lyssa.

    Master Togo's ghost also makes a brief appearance.

    Check out the fable of the Boiling Frog.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 20, 2020

    @Akdeoni.4062 said:
    Yes, the Canthan do perform Weh no Su for ascension rites, and I understand Kormir's ascension to godhood might be a different affair entirely, but again there are no direct stated distinction between the two are entirely different either, so I wouldn't dare claim ANet folly on that perhaps its really a very general term instead?

    The two are entirely different. Dev writers (specifically Jeff Grubb) explicitly stated that they avoided re-using the old Ascension subplot in Nightfall because they were tired of retreading the same plot over and over again. This is why the mechanical benefits of Ascension/Weh no Su is tied to the quest Hunted! As such, no character in Nightfall's plot becomes Ascended.

    In addition, the term "ascension" is seldom used in relation to Kormir becoming a god, especially in GW1 where Ascension was a major plot point, nor is Kormir ever brought up in relation to the Augury Rock and Ascension discussions throughout Elon Riverlands (one NPC even outright states that it has nothing to do with gods, but given he is a charr explaining to a cub why they're looking into it, that is fallible).

    The first use of "ascension" with Kormir comes from from the gw.dat for Nightfall, via a landmark called "Kormir's Ascension" with the description "Place where Kormir is attains godhood, the heart of what will become the Redeemed Realm." Firstly, it must be noted that the second half of that description (namely, the Redeemed Realm) was never made canon; secondly, it must be noted that the term is referring to a place and not the event. Other than that, only The Movement of the World uses the term "ascension" in capitals - every other usage is simply lowercase, and usually as "Kormir ascends to godhood". Given that they're using a different form of the word, while the proper noun Ascension is never used otherwise (except "Ascended" for having past-tense undergone Ascension, and "Ascendant" to define those who underwent Ascension), it isn't very likely to be related. On top of that the wiki article states at the bottom:

    This event is never mentioned by name (with 'Ascension' as a proper noun) during Guild Wars, and was first called the 'Ascension of Kormir' in the Movement of the World. In-game, it is usually referred to more informally as 'Kormir's ascension'.

    Again, the use of capitalization is key here.

    2) I believe the only mentions of Komir's ascension in Cantha was that they noted and celebrated the ascension. Before the rise of Orr and the cut off. There are no mentions that Weh no Su wasn't affected by it. That uncalled surge of energy, might led to improvise if not dangerously unstable "added on solutions" to current ascension rites due to red tape that Imperial Cantha are famous for, which is now further upset by all to mess in the north

    I don't see any relation between the three events of Kormir's godhood, Zhaitan's rise, or Weh no Su. Kormir's godhood is mentioned in Cantha post-Nightfall, during Dragon Festival; there's no direct mention of Kormir in Winds of Change, but there's barely any mention of the gods at all, let alone any specific one (not that it matters since Kisu mentions Kormir directly in Dragon Festival, so we know Cantha knows about Kormir's godhood).

    In respect to the above and the current affairs on Tyria, We can likely speculate the whole system had already been badly upset and unbalanced with dead dragons and dead gods, and Weh no Su being part of the system are likely not spared unaffected.

    Weh no Su was never tied to the gods, though. It was tied to the Celestials. Dragons and gods never had anything to do with Weh no Su.

    The only way Weh no Su relates to Elder Dragons (excluding Tahmu who is technically a human soul taking on the form of a dragon made of stars), would be through Kuunavang's ability to gift celestial skills, and from her the hypothetical connection to the Deep Sea Dragon. And the only way it relates to the gods would be by it having the same / very similar effects as Ascension, which was purportedly gifted by the gods and stopped working since they left.

    Could it be affected? Certainly, but at the moment there's no solid reasoning for why it would. And there is indeed zero connection between becoming a god and having undergone Ascension.

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  • Brycar.2651Brycar.2651 Member ✭✭✭

    Rytlock has been channeling Shiro Tagachi as a Revenant. Shiro came back from the dead once before. Maybe this time his will overpowers Rytlock. Shiro, controlling Rytlock, heads back to Cantha and we give chase.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 20, 2020

    @Brycar.2651 said:
    Rytlock has been channeling Shiro Tagachi as a Revenant. Shiro came back from the dead once before. Maybe this time his will overpowers Rytlock. Shiro, controlling Rytlock, heads back to Cantha and we give chase.

    AFAIK, we only see him channel Glint. Besides, revenants channel echoes, not the actual spirits, so it would seem weird for an echo of Shiro (which seems to be an echo from before falling to Abaddon, and thus his desire to return to life, at that) to take over Rytlock.

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  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Brycar.2651 said:
    Rytlock has been channeling Shiro Tagachi as a Revenant. Shiro came back from the dead once before. Maybe this time his will overpowers Rytlock. Shiro, controlling Rytlock, heads back to Cantha and we give chase.

    All we have ever seen from Rytlock is using Glint skills and main hand sword.
    And even that is rare.

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    The two are entirely different. Dev writers (specifically Jeff Grubb) explicitly stated that they avoided re-using the old Ascension subplot in Nightfall because they were tired of retreading the same plot over and over again. This is why the mechanical benefits of Ascension/Weh no Su is tied to the quest Hunted! As such, no character in Nightfall's plot becomes Ascended.

    In addition, the term "ascension" is seldom used in relation to Kormir becoming a god, especially in GW1 where Ascension was a major plot point, nor is Kormir ever brought up in relation to the Augury Rock and Ascension discussions throughout Elon Riverlands (one NPC even outright states that it has nothing to do with gods, but given he is a charr explaining to a cub why they're looking into it, that is fallible).

    The first use of "ascension" with Kormir comes from from the gw.dat for Nightfall, via a landmark called "Kormir's Ascension" with the description "Place where Kormir is attains godhood, the heart of what will become the Redeemed Realm." Firstly, it must be noted that the second half of that description (namely, the Redeemed Realm) was never made canon; secondly, it must be noted that the term is referring to a place and not the event. Other than that, only The Movement of the World uses the term "ascension" in capitals - every other usage is simply lowercase, and usually as "Kormir ascends to godhood". Given that they're using a different form of the word, while the proper noun Ascension is never used otherwise (except "Ascended" for having past-tense undergone Ascension, and "Ascendant" to define those who underwent Ascension), it isn't very likely to be related. On top of that the wiki article states at the bottom:

    This event is never mentioned by name (with 'Ascension' as a proper noun) during Guild Wars, and was first called the 'Ascension of Kormir' in the Movement of the World.
    In-game, it is usually referred to more informally as 'Kormir's ascension'.

    Wow thanks for more insight on refining the speculations, clearly you had stated the speculations are less likely with both developers logs and corrections on the "terms and conditions of the grammar use ascension, ascended, ascendant", and to top it you even provided canonical and none canonical sources.

    I don't see any relation between the three events of Kormir's godhood, Zhaitan's rise, or Weh no Su. Kormir's godhood is mentioned in Cantha post-Nightfall, during Dragon Festival; there's no direct mention of Kormir in Winds of Change, but there's barely any mention of the gods at all, let alone any specific one (not that it matters since Kisu mentions Kormir directly in Dragon Festival, so we know Cantha knows about Kormir's godhood).

    Well thanks again for the correction, got mix up with GW:EotN and Kormir's godhood part to abaddon's demise.
    Also you mention absence of the gods in writing or in play, that is highly suspicious of Cantha's means to handle these changes and they are not disclosing it in open canonical records, some non written blanks to work with here.

    Weh no Su was never tied to the gods, though. It was tied to the Celestials. Dragons and gods never had anything to do with Weh no Su.

    The only way Weh no Su relates to Elder Dragons (excluding Tahmu who is technically a human soul taking on the form of a dragon made of stars), would be through Kuunavang's ability to gift celestial skills, and from her the hypothetical connection to the Deep Sea Dragon. And the only way it relates to the gods would be by it having the same / very similar effects as Ascension, which was purportedly gifted by the gods and stopped working since they left.

    As for Weh no Su, again its just a delicious blank that could be fill in.
    ( to be honest by GW1:Factions time its already a waning practice that few proceed with. And it might be even be die out and made irrelevant by GW2 time).
    Now that you mention Kuunavang's ability on gift. It does reminds me of the Zephyrite uses Glint air magics, sure another blank waiting to be filled here.

    Could it be affected? Certainly, but at the moment there's no solid reasoning for why it would. And there is indeed zero connection between becoming a god and having undergone Ascension.>

    As all speculation goes until actual further information, it would only be a speculation. All that is sure is something down south is brewing else why "end of dragons" right!

  • Considering where we stand now and how things move. I think it is unlikely we will see the "end" of Jormag right now in the next two episodes.

    One of the main things with the title of the next expansion and our expectance is that we want all elder dragons to end. Given how the story goes this is something that I find unlikely. We have seen that simply destroying an elder dragon is a bad move. Kralkatorik was different as he is "replaced" by Aurene.

    End of dragons is much mroe about ending the era of the dragons, the cycle of them and them being part of what holds Tyria together (a.k.a. the great alchemy).

    This is also fitting with a canthan themed story as they do not see dragons as evil creatures.

    So I think that the fight against Jormag will more likely end in saving Ryland Steelcatcher and unifying the charr under a new Khan-Ur (possibly Ryland or Rytlock, both would be strong candidates). the charr are continuing to fight Jormag and keep him at bay in alliance with the Norn and Braham. Leaving those behind.

    I think we are then in talk with Aurene who say that we are needed in Cantha cause it is the beginning and will be the end. The story itself will be about finding out how the cycle actually works, how it once started and to end the cycle.

  • flog.3485flog.3485 Member ✭✭✭

    @Clyan.1593 said:
    Jormag flies over to cantha. We follow. EZ

    Nah, more like: Taimi gets really sick and we leave Tyria to find a cure in Cantha. As for Jormag and Ryland: we set them up one against each other.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 27, 2020

    @Akdeoni.4062 said:
    Also you mention absence of the gods in writing or in play, that is highly suspicious of Cantha's means to handle these changes and they are not disclosing it in open canonical records, some non written blanks to work with here.

    It isn't really that suspicious. The Winds of Change plot was all about political affairs and societal strife. Unlike Prophecies, Factions, and Nightfall which had a very heavy dose of religious topics throughout - even War in Kryta, given the cult nature of the White Mantle. The only religious aspect of the Winds of Change plot was the claim that Ashu's survival was divine providence. With no interaction with false gods, avatars, or the Six themselves, and no religious strife, having little mention of the gods is pretty much expected.

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