Balancing outliers

Here's some good targets for balancing and why they're so strong:

Elementalist:

Aftershock! https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/%22Aftershock!%22-10 target 3s immobilize with a 600 radius and 35s cooldown. Who thought this was a good idea? Why does it also grant magnetic aura, protection, and when traited weakness and might, is it a defensive utility or an offensive utility? Trick question, it's both.*Cut the immob duration to 1.5s and the protection duration to 2s. Remove the weakness from tempestuous aria.

Engineer:

Grenade barrage https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Grenade_Barrage-If you don't have a reflect up, you die. 3.0 power coefficient that's ranged with only a 25s CD. I've seen this hit for 20k and it's not like engi lacks stealth or mobility. This puts backstab thieves to shame because unlike backstab, it's also an aoe.*Cut the power coefficient per grenade to 0.25 bringing the total damage down by half.

Explosive entrance https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Explosive_Entrance_(trait_skill)-Free 5 target attack with a 1.25 power coefficient that's refreshed each time you dodge. You can literally pop a stamina sigil on your hammer, trigger shredder gyro and dodge through an enemy group making people explode with unavoidable damage. Most skills and traits had their damage reduced, but this somehow didn't make the cut? That it also applies vulnerability and when traited blind and potentially daze is ridiculous.*Reduce power coefficient to 0.3, this is a FREE attack

Purity of purpose https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Purity_of_Purpose-Permanent boons of every flavor. This shouldn't even exist with how easy cleanses are to access on engineer. You can't control what conditions your weapon skills put out and many damaging skills come with conditions attached. The condi->boon conversion effect has a sizable cooldown for every other skill or trait that uses the mechanic, why do scrappers have it on every cleanse with no cooldown at all? This would go a long way towards reducing boon uptime.*Put a 5s cooldown per target on purity of purpose

Guardian:

Epilogue: Unbroken Lines https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Epilogue:_Unbroken_Lines-Grants 200 toughness, aegis, protection, and stability. It's the perfect group defensive skill and it only has a 12s cooldown when traited. It's locked behind the longer cooldown on tome of resolve, but this still does too much for how easy it is to use.*Get rid of the aegis, that reduces a fair amount of it's support capability while allowing it to remain the best skill to use for every push. This is an easy spot to reduce some of the effectiveness that firebrand brings.

Stand your ground! https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/%22Stand_Your_Ground!%22-This is so good that you can't avoid taking it for any guardian in wvw. There's nothing on any class that even competes with how valuable this skill is and as a result build diversity suffers. Aoe stability needs to be given to other professions and that can't happen until this skill's effectiveness is reduced.*Reduce the stacks of stability to 3 from 5 and/or increase the cooldown from 30s to 40s. ADD AOE STABILITY TO OTHER PROFESSIONS

Mesmer:

Tides of time https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Tides_of_Time-This creates a wall that grants quickness and alacrity to those it passes through. It also stuns for 1s on the way out and the way back and blocks projectiles. With alacrity that's easy to keep up via delayed reactions and lost time it can get down to an under 20s cooldown. The real problem is it has no target cap. You hit 60 people, you stun 60 people, twice.*Give it a target cap and remove the projectile hate.

Illusion of life https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Illusion_of_Life-Did someone screw up and go down? Not for long, this gives 3 people a free up that makes them immune to damage and when traited grants superspeed. With mimic or continuum split it can be cast multiple times from 1200 range. When the timer runs out, you can still be ressed.*Reduce the range to 900 so there's some risk in using it. If the people affected do not score a kill the 15s window they are defeated instead of downed. Reduce the cast time to 1s. This skill is currently a get out of jail free card for the first two or three pushes your group makes.

Necromancer:

Not much to say here, necro's been nerfed plenty. The closest thing to an outlier would be ghastly breach, and the only thing worth doing to it is reducing the duration to 4s. Right now if you layer a few of them you can completely deny a melee push because it applies 4+1 conditions every second that can cover your group's immobilize. Maybe consider making it pulse every other second for 8s instead of every second for 6.

Ranger:

Muddy terrain https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Muddy_Terrain-This applies 2s of immobilize on 5 targets at 900 range, which is good for a 25s cooldown. The problem with it is it also applies pulsing cripple and slow to cover that immobilize, so unless you can remove 3+ conditions at once or you have a skill/trait that specifically removes immobilize you're screwed.*Remove the slow. This means you only need to remove 2 conditions at once to clear the immobilize. The slow is problematic on this skill because it increases the cast time of your condition clears, so if you remove two conditions you're still slowed which prevents you from getting off another condi cleanse until the cover conditions are reapplied.

Rapid Fire https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rapid_Fire-1500 range with a 2.75 power coefficient and only a 10s cooldown. This with one wolf pack allows a ranger to one shot anyone running past a tower from complete safety. If you're on a mount and this dismounts you, it will also kill you because in that 1s knockdown period none of the stats from your armor are applied.*Reduce the power coefficient per hit from 0.275 to 0.2-0.15. There's no reason a skill that's this easy to use deals so much damage from 1500 range.

Revenant:

Inspiring reinforcement https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Inspiring_Reinforcement-Why does a skill that grants pulsing stability have a 1.5 power coefficient and effectively no target cap? It even applies weakness and can hit from 900 range. You can hit up to 30 people at a time for 6-10k, pretty great for a support skill!*Reduce the power coefficient to 0.5, decrease the number of times it can hit from 30 to 5, and reduce the energy cost to 20. More group stability is the way to go with this utility, right now it's overperforming.

Draconic Echo https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Draconic_Echo-This doubles the number of targets each facet affects and also grants the facet's effects for 6s after you use them. There's nothing in the game that's even comparable to how good that is. The tradeoff for this trait is not taking an extra 13% damage, but that opportunity cost isn't reflective of what you're giving up.*Either keep the 10 target cap and remove the pulsing after effect or remove the 10 target cap and increase the pulsing after effect duration to 9s.

Tormenting runes https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Rune_of_Tormenting-There's no internal cooldown. These runes heal you for 171 every time you apply torment and for each stack of torment you apply. Mallyx's elite applies 5/10 stacks every second, 855/1710 self healing every second just for walking around. Sevenshot that hits 5 people? 6k self heal. Your active damaging skills become as good as your heal skill or better due to these runes.*Change the active effect to 'torment applied by you deals 10% more damage'.

Thief:Not much to say here either, the problems with thief are too much mobility and stealth allowing you to disengage and reengage at will. Once you start hitting someone you're pretty much guaranteed a win unless they have multiple mobility skills allowing them to get inside a structure.

Warrior:Winds of disenchantment https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Winds_of_Disenchantment-Mobile boon hate for 5s with no target cap on 10 targets. You can roll them out one after another and stay in melee range to completely shut down any group's boons. Not a problem with 1-2 spellbreakers, very much so a problem with 10.*Pulse 1/s instead of 2/s or make it stationary again.

add a 50% damage output as well as attack speed for all skills @ thief and ranger, and it'd be okay. i see too few nerfs on silly ganker specs.

before that happens, absolutely nothing can make me agree to nerf sustain. it's yet not broken, some people just die because they bathe in red circles, as if it was the fountain of life.

about mesmer, illusion of life isn't that easy to hit, esp not several targets at once. often you have to wage where you can activate it, and if it's wasted, it has a long enough cooldown to stay wasted for that very battle. i think a chrono needs several runs till timely illusions work well, and chronos are not yet thaaat popular. plus, good groups cleave downed anyways, otherwise the downed can rally as well from some kitten that ran into enemy bombs.

next mesmer thing: tides of time is barely to never used. it runs rather: boon strip, veil with double-utility skill, illusion of life; technically that skill is useable but not that op - and as said, pretty nieche.

@kamikharzeeh.8016 said:add a 50% damage output as well as attack speed for all skills @ thief and ranger, and it'd be okay. i see too few nerfs on silly ganker specs.

before that happens, absolutely nothing can make me agree to nerf sustain. it's yet not broken, some people just die because they bathe in red circles, as if it was the fountain of life.

about mesmer, illusion of life isn't that easy to hit, esp not several targets at once. often you have to wage where you can activate it, and if it's wasted, it has a long enough cooldown to stay wasted for that very battle. i think a chrono needs several runs till timely illusions work well, and chronos are not yet thaaat popular. plus, good groups cleave downed anyways, otherwise the downed can rally as well from some kitten that ran into enemy bombs.

next mesmer thing: tides of time is barely to never used. it runs rather: boon strip, veil with double-utility skill, illusion of life; technically that skill is useable but not that op - and as said, pretty nieche.

you can cancel the illusion of life cast at any time and save the cooldown, used well it's one of the strongest skills in wvw. It doesn't matter if you cleave someone that gets up from IoL either because it grants invulnerability and when traited, superspeed.

Tides of time is chrono shield 5, do you think it's a utility skill?

Lol @ 10K jalis road. Did anet actually release the paper bag helm skin or something?

OMG lol @ tides of time. Have you ever even used the skill?

@Justine.6351 said:Lol @ 10K jalis road. Did anet actually release the paper bag helm skin or something?

It can crit for 10k but you're right, 6k crits are more common. Why does a skill that hits 30 people and grants pulsing stability need to even hit that hard?

OMG lol @ tides of time. Have you ever even used the skill?

@9:50

you tell me? 60 boons ripped in <3s

Did an ele piss in your cereal or something?

That immobilize on Aftershock comes out on the second impact; if you manage to get hit with it, you absolutely deserve it and so much more. I will agree that the increased target cap and weakness application on Tempestuous Aria may seem like a bit much, but I want you to actually go and try playing the class and messing around with its traits before asking for nerfs. Check out which traits and utility skills the two are competing with. There are good reasons why we see fbs and scrappers on support and scourges on soft cc and bombing duty rather than having 10-15 tempests per blob trying to debilitate/support everything by screaming in its general vicinity.

What's more baffling is you defining this as an offensive and defensive skill. What about this skill is killing you? The ranged spam that it reflects? Even if I concede this point, how is that different from half the skills on other professions? If an ele is making an offensive build, it will almost certainly take something else because the offensive components of Aftershock (idk, the cripple?) are negligible at best (middling to lower-tier if traited) and whatever defenses it offers are overshadowed by other utilities when used on any build other than an auramancer, which is a support build and does not include enough damage to pose a threat.

lol i never read the name of shield 5 tbh. my chrono is quite new. didn't even notice it does anything other than reflecting projectiles and daze. but for its cast range and its active cast time, , that is really pretty useless. good luck of trying to hit 120 people, so two full blobs with it, twice. or even once? realistc is rather that it touches like 10 people thaha. okay in a stealthpush u may hit that now and then, tho still unrealistic. plus u had bubbles up anyways and necro(s) in the party. kinda not changing much there i assume. guess u wanted to collect overkill points....i guessed u talk about some skill similar like staff 5 of FB, i never used like 80% of potential mesmer skills sofar, so coulda been there.

ur also a solid joker to cry about rev road, it's not like u have to option to fire it off always inside the enemy blob without exploding. opensquads often cannot even stealth so using road that late would be suicide. esp after hammer 5 lost any damage for a superslow cc and facet of chaos lost all damage as well... idk. also coalence messed up aiming or even failing at activating since the last rev workover... enough nerfs for rev. it is one of the last few things that do real damage.

it kinda disturbs me alone that u even touch this pointless balancing topic at all. that's nothing wvw really needs. they should get new content and improve the playability and system, they battles just get worse with each of these cheesy balancing fails.

I'm surprised you said nothing for Necro.

The core Signet build has little to no presence in large scale but 1v1 and small scale it is pretty monstrous. Granted, it doesn't do a ton of damage and is an immobile tank, it is akin to the pre-nerf S/D Weaver in that it can out sustain just about anything that commits to it. While I wouldn't necessarily say it's in dire need of a nerf, I do think it deserves to be looked at.

Signet Of Undeath needs to be adjusted in some way as do a few traits in Death Magic. Although I am a long time Necro main, I'm honestly not sure how to properly nerf this build without ruining a lot of others. All I know for certain is that Necro shouldn't be excluded from nerfs just because it "has been a lot already".

Just don't nerf core Shroud, please, ANet... I fear every day that they're going to do this thanks to the aforementioned immortal Signet build. Since ANet tends to make questionable changes, I'm afraid they're going to nerf the wrong thing and instead of killing the Signet build, they'll nerf Shroud which will in turn make it mandatory to go full tank...

@Arkaile.5604 said:Did an ele kitten in your cereal or something?

That immobilize on Aftershock comes out on the second impact; if you manage to get hit with it, you absolutely deserve it and so much more. I will agree that the increased target cap and weakness application on Tempestuous Aria may seem like a bit much, but I want you to actually go and try playing the class and messing around with its traits before asking for nerfs. Check out which traits and utility skills the two are competing with. There are good reasons why we see fbs and scrappers on support and scourges on soft cc and bombing duty rather than having 10-15 tempests per blob trying to debilitate/support everything by screaming in its general vicinity.

What's more baffling is you defining this as an offensive and defensive skill. What about this skill is killing you? The ranged spam that it reflects? Even if I concede this point, how is that different from half the skills on other professions? If an ele is making an offensive build, it will almost certainly take something else because the offensive components of Aftershock (idk, the cripple?) are negligible at best (middling to lower-tier if traited) and whatever defenses it offers are overshadowed by other utilities when used on any build other than an auramancer, which is a support build and does not include enough damage to pose a threat.

The immobilize from aftershock uses the 600 radius, not the 240 around you. 3s immob on 10 targets in 600 range 1s after casting isn't remotely hard to land. Tempest is currently the second strongest healer and about even with scrapper for cleanses when used correctly with trooper runes, it's not a class that needs to have 10 target immob.

With trooper runes you can cast aftershock as you're pushing in to cleanse 1 condition from 10 targets, plus an additional condition from 10 targets for giving them magnetic aura. This is a utility that's powerful offensively, because it's the only 10 target immob in the game and that immob has a longer duration than most of the 5 target ones. This is a utility that's powerful defensively because it grants projectile hate, protection, and applies weakness- all of which reduce incoming damage.

@kamikharzeeh.8016 said:lol i never read the name of shield 5 tbh. my chrono is quite new. didn't even notice it does anything other than reflecting projectiles and daze. but for its cast range and its active cast time, , that is really pretty useless. good luck of trying to hit 120 people, so two full blobs with it, twice. or even once? realistc is rather that it touches like 10 people thaha. okay in a stealthpush u may hit that now and then, tho still unrealistic. plus u had bubbles up anyways and necro(s) in the party. kinda not changing much there i assume. guess u wanted to collect overkill points....i guessed u talk about some skill similar like staff 5 of FB, i never used like 80% of potential mesmer skills sofar, so coulda been there.

ur also a solid joker to cry about rev road, it's not like u have to option to fire it off always inside the enemy blob without exploding. opensquads often cannot even stealth so using road that late would be suicide. esp after hammer 5 lost any damage for a superslow cc and facet of chaos lost all damage as well... idk. also coalence messed up aiming or even failing at activating since the last rev workover... enough nerfs for rev. it is one of the last few things that do real damage.

it kinda disturbs me alone that u even touch this pointless balancing topic at all. that's nothing wvw really needs. they should get new content and improve the playability and system, they battles just get worse with each of these cheesy balancing fails.

Check the clip i just posted above starting at 9:50 and you can see what it looks like when tides of time is used correctly. If you continue watching, you'll see me using it to the same degree mid fights without stealth.

Inspiring reinforcement is very easy to land too, it has 900 range and a wide radius. You don't open with it, you drop it once you're almost in melee range, about 600 units out if they're pushing you or 300 units out if you're pushing them. Glint has an invuln for a heal, jalis grants you stab, a -50% damage buff, and a toggleable -20% damage buff.... it's not hard to melee push with a herald even in full berserkers.

@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:I'm surprised you said nothing for Necro.

The core Signet build has little to no presence in large scale but 1v1 and small scale it is pretty monstrous. Granted, it doesn't do a ton of damage and is an immobile tank, it is akin to the pre-nerf S/D Weaver in that it can out sustain just about anything that commits to it. While I wouldn't necessarily say it's in dire need of a nerf, I do think it deserves to be looked at.

Signet Of Undeath needs to be adjusted in some way as do a few traits in Death Magic. Although I am a long time Necro main, I'm honestly not sure how to properly nerf this build without ruining a lot of others. All I know for certain is that Necro shouldn't be excluded from nerfs just because it "has been a lot already".

Just don't nerf core Shroud, please, ANet... I fear every day that they're going to do this thanks to the aforementioned immortal Signet build. Since ANet tends to make questionable changes, I'm afraid they're going to nerf the wrong thing and instead of killing the Signet build, they'll nerf Shroud which will in turn make it mandatory to go full tank...

That's true, my experience is mostly with large fights vs roaming lately. Signet necro's hard to balance because it is easy to CC or kite, so it's not an issue for mobile classes. It's a nightmare if you're not a mobile class though because it can facetank just about anything with shroud and might as well be immune to conditions. Reducing the toughness from carapace and lowering LF gain from signet of undeath is probably the only thing that would work.

Good suggestions, OP.

Although for Guardian, everyone seems to miss this one:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Force_of_WillYou have increased vitality. Healing effectiveness to other allies is increased based on a percentage of your vitality.Healing Increase to Others per 100 Vitality: 0.5%Force of Will: 300 Vitality, X% Healing Increase to Others

I mean, the trait is 300 stats plus a significant amount of healing. Guardian is supposed to have low health, but this more or less negates it.

Instead of +300 vit, make it gain vitality equal to 10% of your power. For a minstrel firebrand, this will give 100 vit instead of 300, making it ~19k hp instead of 21k.

Incidentally they said they were gonna nerf this by cutting the vit bonus in 1/2 but never got around to it for whatever reason.

For Engi, Explosive Entrance has been broken for a long while and flashbang is kinda stupid. Purity of Purpose I think 5s is a bit too harsh; maybe 2s should be a good chop.

Ele, Rev: I think 10 target thingies have no place in WvW. However, without Inspiring Reinforcement, all Rev would have in zergs is the gutted hammer which is really annoying to aim. However, both classes are pretty solid in zergs atm, so I would be careful.

Grenade barrage https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Grenade_Barrage-If you don't have a reflect up, you die. 3.0 power coefficient that's ranged with only a 25s CD. I've seen this hit for 20k and it's not like engi lacks stealth or mobility. This puts backstab thieves to shame because unlike backstab, it's also an aoe.*Cut the power coefficient per grenade to 0.25 bringing the total damage down by half.

Againstthat change will efect scrapper, and if you nerf grenades, it will underperform on scrapper

Insted nerf https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Laser%27s_Edge, and buff basic holo skills to match % nerf

Winds of disenchantment https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Winds_of_Disenchantment-Mobile boon hate for 5s with no target cap. You can roll them out one after another and stay in melee range to completely shut down any group's boons.

This is false. It is 5 targets max. It applies a debuff that is easily checked on your bar in order to get the 'immune' to pop up and prevent boons from applying. Unless people without the de-buff are not getting boons in which case bug report it to anet.

The immobilize from aftershock uses the 600 radius, not the 240 around you.

This is also false. 600 radius aura application shout, then 240 radius blast finisher immobilize.

Stand your ground! https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/"Stand_Your_Ground!"I'm a touch baffled as to how you managed to complain about aftershocks 600 radius but then pinned SYG's strength on everything except the right thing, the fact it applies in 600 radius. If Mantra of Concentration or Dolyak's stance applied in 600 radius trust me, we'd be taking that instead.

@"God.2708" said:

Winds of disenchantment

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Winds_of_Disenchantment

-Mobile boon hate for 5s with no target cap. You can roll them out one after another and stay in melee range to completely shut down any group's boons.

So i just looked through a pile of clips and the effect seems inconsistent. Some of them i'm able to get boons near the edge of the bubble, others i'm getting no boons without the debuff. It's hard to find good examples of it because it's not often that 10+ people are being given boons inside a bubble from the same person. So this sounds like a bug, but i'll try to recreate the effect with a 10 target boon class later today.

The immobilize from aftershock uses the 600 radius, not the 240 around you.

Stand your ground!

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/"Stand_Your_Ground

!"I'm a touch baffled as to how you managed to complain about aftershocks 600 radius but then pinned SYG's strength on everything except the right thing, the fact it applies in 600 radius. If Mantra of Concentration or Dolyak's stance applied in 600 radius trust me, we'd be taking that instead.

You're right, 600 radius is part of the problem with SYG. But overall it has a larger radius with more stacks and a higher duration than any other stab skill. Until it gets brought down a notch or two, they won't add better stab options to the game for other classes or tweak the current stab options to be more desirable. Mantra of concentration is a great example of a stab source that could be boosted to a 360 radius.

Engineer:

Grenade barrage https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Grenade_Barrage-If you don't have a reflect up, you die. 3.0 power coefficient that's ranged with only a 25s CD. I've seen this hit for 20k and it's not like engi lacks stealth or mobility. This puts backstab thieves to shame because unlike backstab, it's also an aoe.*Cut the power coefficient per grenade to 0.25 bringing the total damage down by half.

grenade barrage has 0.4 coef in spvp... what are u talking about, man..

@"RisenHowl.2419" said:Warrior:Winds of disenchantment https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Winds_of_Disenchantment-Mobile boon hate for 5s with no target cap. You can roll them out one after another and stay in melee range to completely shut down any group's boons. Not a problem with 1-2 spellbreakers, very much so a problem with 10.*Give it a target cap or make it stationary again.AoEs have an intrinsic cap of 5 targets, WoD included. What you are seeing is the effect of striking every half second while moving through the enemy zerg. You'll likely be hitting 10 total players per second, but each tick only hits 5 players. The Debuff is a 1s debuff. So every second you are applying 1 stack for 1 s twice. As you move and the AI picks targets that can cause 10 players to receive the Debuff.

As far as I know most Zergs don't have 10 Spellbreakers in them. Most I've seen is 5 at a time.

That said WoD is needed due to boon vomit from other classes, and if said boon vomit is reduced, as you lay out above for instance, then WoD won't be as needed and more WvWarriors may drop Spellbreaker for Core/Berserker DPS.

Engi Nades still do too much damage and DO need a nerf, but the biggest reason is Laser's Edge. Both of those need a nerf. Nades by 20% and Laser's Edge needs to be MAX 10% at 100 heat. Enhanced Capacity Storage Unit will bump that to 15% at 150 heat.

EE needs to be made to not crit. Blast Shield and Flashbang both need 15s ICDs.

@"Ovalkvadratcylinder.9365" said:

Engineer:

Grenade barrage

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Grenade_Barrage

-If you don't have a reflect up, you die. 3.0 power coefficient that's ranged with only a 25s CD. I've seen this hit for 20k and it's not like engi lacks stealth or mobility. This puts backstab thieves to shame because unlike backstab, it's also an aoe.*Cut the power coefficient per grenade to 0.25 bringing the total damage down by half.

it's 0.4 per grenade x6 grenades giving the skill a 2.4 power coefficient in pvp. In wvw it's 0.5 per grenade for a total of 3.0

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@"RisenHowl.2419" said:Warrior:Winds of disenchantment

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Winds_of_Disenchantment

-Mobile boon hate for 5s with no target cap. You can roll them out one after another and stay in melee range to completely shut down any group's boons. Not a problem with 1-2 spellbreakers, very much so a problem with 10.*Give it a target cap or make it stationary again.AoEs have an intrinsic cap of 5 targets, WoD included. What you are seeing is the effect of striking every half second while moving through the enemy zerg. You'll likely be hitting 10 total players per second, but each tick only hits 5 players. The Debuff is a 1s debuff. So every second you are applying 1 stack for 1 s twice. As you move and the AI picks targets that can cause 10 players to receive the Debuff.

That explains the effect i'm seeing where more than 5 people are boon immune in <1s, thank you. Some servers are heavy on the spellbreakers, that's why i said two or three isn't an issue but 10 is. I've had nights against BG where there's a group of 5 spellbreakers in their own party being a sidecar for the rest of the map queue, which often has 5+ spellbreakers in the squad already. The issue of too many boons is probably due to purity of purpose, which is why i suggested putting a per target icd on it. Converting conditions into boons is a powerful effect, that's why every other class has a long cooldown associated with it. Purity of purpose stands out because it doesn't.

laser's edge is another good target for shaving damage, but a 3.0 power coefficient is too high for grenade barrage. Shrapnel grenade could use a shave too by 15-20%

This just in, t4 players dying to basic game mechanics. SMH my head my head.

tbh, if you're dying to the immob from auramancer (which suggests your supports are inept), then just wait until some fight group with a tech soulbeast and binding roots comes along. Can't cleanse if it is reapplied. I find it funny that you don't call out prelude lash because it still does damage as a pull and it immobs all in the same skill.

@Generic.7904 said:tbh, if you're dying to the immob from auramancer (which suggests your supports are inept), then just wait until some fight group with a tech soulbeast and binding roots comes along. Can't cleanse if it is reapplied. I find it funny that you don't call out prelude lash because it still does damage as a pull and it immobs all in the same skill.

prelude lash is 5 targets for 2s with a 300 radius, aftershock is 10 targets for 3s with a 600 radius. The issue isn't just the immob, it's that the skill applies a pile of defensive buffs with them- making it the best immob in the game while still being a very strong defensive tool in it's own right.

You use aftershock right before your group starts a melee bomb, that way the immob is covered. You know, the same way you use an immob soulbeast or druid.

@RisenHowl.2419 said:

@Generic.7904 said:tbh, if you're dying to the immob from auramancer (which suggests your supports are inept), then just wait until some fight group with a tech soulbeast and binding roots comes along. Can't cleanse if it is reapplied. I find it funny that you don't call out prelude lash because it still does damage as a pull and it immobs all in the same skill.

Okay, so your supports can't cleanse through a bomb, good to know.

Additionally you're ignoring the other part of what I said about prelude lash. It is a pull that does damage. There were supposed to no longer be any hard cc's that do damage. I.E. drop the hammer does a paltry 7 damage. Then you put an immob of 2 seconds on top of the fact that if you caught someone without stab, you've now pulled them away from supports to you and your group. With higher level play than blobbing, that's probably one of the best scenarios. Hit someone for some damage, pull them away from their group and supports and then put them in a prime spot for people to bomb immobilized? Versus, oh hey guys, I'm gonna layer an immob that makes a group of people all together do a bit of a stutter step because it'll be cleansed. It's far easier to get out of an immob if 9 other people also get caught in the same immob together unless your supports are just bad. A 600 range in this case also means you can't as easily choose who you immob because it's so indiscriminate. Meaning you can't as easily target squishy dps players, and you're likely to catch supports which will then keep their dps from dying. Prelude lash is nicer because anyone with stab (most likely not a support) doesn't get pulled. Oh and you can trait it to give blind, weakness, and taunt while giving you fury and quickness if you really wanted (though there are better traits to pick up). Not to mention it's on a shorter cooldown.

@Generic.7904 said:

@RisenHowl.2419 said:

@Generic.7904 said:tbh, if you're dying to the immob from auramancer (which suggests your supports are inept), then just wait until some fight group with a tech soulbeast and binding roots comes along. Can't cleanse if it is reapplied. I find it funny that you don't call out prelude lash because it still does damage as a pull and it immobs all in the same skill.

Hey, i agree. Prelude lash shouldn't be doing damage with its CC. That doesn't change how effective aftershock is though, it prioritizes the closest targets which gives your squad a chance to run them over since those are the same people getting hit by the melee train. Prelude lash has no 10 person defensive buffs associated with it either.

I do have to say if you’re having your revs take draconic echoes, you’re definitely dampening their damage output. Having a rev per party is much preferable to taking the trait to get away with having fewer revs. My guess is that you view revs as boon batteries first and then spike damage second. And if you’ve got bad revs maybe it’s worth just putting them on draconic echoes so you can get some use out of them.

This just in, resident [HzH] hermit makes random balance suggestions that no one asked for.

More at 11.

@Valelutra.9128 said:I do have to say if you’re having your revs take draconic echoes, you’re definitely dampening their damage output. Having a rev per party is much preferable to taking the trait to get away with having fewer revs. My guess is that you view revs as boon batteries first and then spike damage second. And if you’ve got bad revs maybe it’s worth just putting them on draconic echoes so you can get some use out of them.

The above picture is my damage with draconic echo, still pulling >10k crits though you do lose out on potential max damage. The trade off isn't as bad as you'd think because continuing to pulse facet of darkness supplies you an extra 5 might on each pulse after you use your stunbreak. Supplying trash boons reliably also reduces the likelihood of stab, resist, prot, or quickness being stripped. The real winner for draconic echo is your elite and f2 though, free pulsing protection just from flashing the elite and a -10% damage or +20% boon duration buff for 10 people aren't something to sneeze at.

@MokoToko.6890 said:This just in, resident [HzH] hermit makes random balance suggestions that no one asked for.

More at 11.

i'm not in hzh? do you actually have more at 11 or...

Hmmmm, I don’t run draconic echoes, but never really have problems having full boons, and I’m typically in and out of both legends constantly using all of my facets. So idk, maybe if you were running one rev per ten or if your supports were bad, then it might be worth it. Otherwise it just feels like a waste of extra boons that your firebrands and engis should be supplying.

Additionally, incensed response gives 8s of the 5 stacks of might, so after the first couple pulses it’s not super useful since so many other ambient sources of might exist (tempest, engi, fb). You also grant yourself fury when you legend swap and disable foes just by taking invocation. So fury sources are already abundant.

I think the main argument might hold for protection and stability, in that the f2 stab and damage reduction can be really nice to have. The main problem comes with when it’s used. You can’t be in the other facets and it’s got a 20 second cooldown for 2-3 stacks of stab. There’s not really any reapplication unless you use road. Protection is much the same, it’s nice to pop, but once it’s used there’s no secondary source in the kit. Extending the application of those things is nice but both of those boons should be handled by your supports not your dps. So yeah if your supports are bad or your boons aren’t having enough uptime maybe swap, but having a 13-16% damage increase on my skills on top of the other damage modifiers seems much more valuable if those boons are already covered by supports anyways.