Seriously Needed Balance Changes (Scrapper, Holosmith, Thief, Elementalists) — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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Seriously Needed Balance Changes (Scrapper, Holosmith, Thief, Elementalists)

memausz.7264memausz.7264 Member ✭✭✭

What needs to be immediately Nerfed:

Decap Scrapper (throw mine and personal battering ram need 50% higher cooldown times), Static Shocker needs barrier bonus reduction to 40% of what it is now [even though this hurts core engineers too, it's got to go]
Holosmith: Reduce Grenade Barrage dmg by 10%, reduce Poison Grenade poison stacks to 1/grenade and reduce poison duration to 6 seconds, remove Lesser Grenade Barrage
Engineer General: (Remove Daze from Flash bang and replace with

Thieves: Shadow Arts needs to be addressed or if it cannot, reworked; the strength of the stealth synergy is way too high on daredevils. They have unmatched mobility, do a lot of damage (7 K backstabs from stealth and an unblockable daze via Swipe that has 0 cast time forcing other players to guess dodge), avoid getting hit because of so much stealth and 150 endurance bar, and cannot be crippled, immobilized, or chilled because of Unhindered Combatant Trait. Now I don't mind the damage and mobility synergy, given Thieves are in the lowest base health pool, but the stealth is just too much. Needs to go. The stealth mechanic in competitive is a problem anyway because if someone does that much damage, you SHOULD see it coming. Addressing Shadow Arts would also reduce the unbreakable chain of CCs that deadeyes can exert on a target - CC, immobilize, dmg, repeat until the target is dead.

For Condi thief specifically: Reduce the stacks of confusion that pistols can apply. A response to a condi thief shouldn't be the thing killing an opponent.

Elementalists
Tempests: Shock Aura should daze rather than stun, especially given Powerful Aura's AoE potential on 4 other allies, it shuts down another team's fighting potential entirely unless they have a guard. With daze, at least a team or player can run away.

Comments

  • RUNICBLACK.7630RUNICBLACK.7630 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 4, 2020

    As an alternative how about improving or increasing the duration of reveal on the classes (note that mesmer and the ele doesn't have access to it at all)

    Life before Death
    Strength before Weakness
    Journey before Destination
    stormlightarchive.wikia.com/wiki/Immortal_Words

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @RUNICBLACK.7630 said:
    As an alternative how about improving or increasing the duration of reveal on the classes (not that mesmer and the ele doesn't have access to it at all)

    In general Reveal should be more prevalent before people initiate attacks so that there can be room for reacting and dodging. Big attacks on all professions honestly should.

    Willing to help with anything Revenant related.

  • Khalisto.5780Khalisto.5780 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Inst thief confusion coming from steal only?

  • JusticeRetroHunter.7684JusticeRetroHunter.7684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 4, 2020

    @memausz.7264 said:
    What needs to be immediately Nerfed:

    Decap Scrapper (throw mine and personal battering ram need 50% higher cooldown times), Static Shocker needs barrier bonus reduction to 40% of what it is now [even though this hurts core engineers too, it's got to go]

    I really like that this build showed up because it's new and interesting...why it showed up is a mystery. but frankly, aside from the spectacle of a such a unique and interesting build...it's extremely annoying to fight. The constant CC's is what makes the build work...but it's also it's most annoying attribute.

    Right now it is frustrating to fight this build and a big part of me wants to see it disappear, but also a part of me would like to see it stay...and that instead of nerfs, we should just have tools to be able to deal with builds like these...

    But of course stability was unceremoniously stripped from the game so there exists less counter play.

  • You're in luck because all of those professions are getting adjusted in the next patch. Shadow arts is being looked at as well as throw mine.

  • @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    dunno whats interesting or unique with decap scrapper.

    i mean we could argue about this on all sorts of levels...in my opinon it is interesting and unique in that it is far different then what we normally experience in spvp.

    CC hammer warrior is in a similar strain of builds that are like this. So ya i think that's interesting. If you don't then that's your opinon as well.

  • Pistol thief’s don’t apply any confusion unless it’s from bewildering ambush or a rare combo field, which would be a completely separate issue. Shadow arts is a problem in general- it gives enough sustain to where you should never, I repeat Never, die and has so much mixed offensive pressure + utility that it basically has everything from acro and deadly arts combined. Other than that I’d like to see some real number tweaks- things like heart seeker damage and random over performing things like mauraders resilience need to be tweak imo. Other than that most thief builds are either 1.) balanced or 2.) not good at all, keep in mind many builds on thief got destroyed in the big balance patch

  • MrForz.1953MrForz.1953 Member ✭✭✭

    @memausz.7264 said:
    Holosmith: Reduce Grenade Barrage dmg by 10%, reduce Poison Grenade poison stacks to 1/grenade and reduce poison duration to 6 seconds, remove Lesser Grenade Barrage

    That's not a holosmith skill. zzzzzzz.

    Disgruntled Charr Engineer and Pirate - Jade Quarry

  • CutesySylveon.8290CutesySylveon.8290 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 5, 2020

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @memausz.7264 said:
    What needs to be immediately Nerfed:

    Decap Scrapper (throw mine and personal battering ram need 50% higher cooldown times), Static Shocker needs barrier bonus reduction to 40% of what it is now [even though this hurts core engineers too, it's got to go]

    I really like that this build showed up because it's new and interesting...why it showed up is a mystery. but frankly, aside from the spectacle of a such a unique and interesting build...it's extremely annoying to fight. The constant CC's is what makes the build work...but it's also it's most annoying attribute.

    Right now it is frustrating to fight this build and a big part of me wants to see it disappear, but also a part of me would like to see it stay...and that instead of nerfs, we should just have tools to be able to deal with builds like these...

    But of course stability was unceremoniously stripped from the game so there exists less counter play.

    Decap Scrapper isn't new and interesting at all, it's just another version of Knockback Spam Ventari we had years ago. Yeah, remember how much fun that was to deal with? This was before the big patch too so we had more stability back then. Decap Scrapper is worse. Gut it and throw it in the trash with its big brother build.

  • Shiyo.3578Shiyo.3578 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 5, 2020

    @RUNICBLACK.7630 said:
    As an alternative how about improving or increasing the duration of reveal on the classes (note that mesmer and the ele doesn't have access to it at all)

    Reveal does essentially nothing vs a thief with somewhat of a brain. Reveal me? Ok I dodge 5-6 times in a row then shadowstep then stealth.

  • Shiyo.3578Shiyo.3578 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 5, 2020

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @memausz.7264 said:
    What needs to be immediately Nerfed:

    Decap Scrapper (throw mine and personal battering ram need 50% higher cooldown times), Static Shocker needs barrier bonus reduction to 40% of what it is now [even though this hurts core engineers too, it's got to go]

    I really like that this build showed up because it's new and interesting...why it showed up is a mystery. but frankly, aside from the spectacle of a such a unique and interesting build...it's extremely annoying to fight. The constant CC's is what makes the build work...but it's also it's most annoying attribute.

    Right now it is frustrating to fight this build and a big part of me wants to see it disappear, but also a part of me would like to see it stay...and that instead of nerfs, we should just have tools to be able to deal with builds like these...

    But of course stability was unceremoniously stripped from the game so there exists less counter play.

    dunno whats interesting or unique with decap scrapper.
    all it does is push people away from node while being too tanky to kill, we had same kitten about 1 year ago, its no different then decap druid where he pishes you off and immobs you to decap while outhealing your damage.
    its a stat check build, if you cant kill/push it off you auto lose.

    It's just one of those people who think build diversity is good even if it's builds that shouldn't exist in a PvP game at all.

    Proper build diversity: Condi base Necro, Power Reaper, Support scourge(2/3 of these are trash, though)

    Bad build diversity: Bunker base necro, bunker minion scourge, turret bunker eng, decap anything, water weaver.

    Unrelated, but kind of related, I think it's funny that a game where you afk until 15m in for dampening with pure healers has easier to kill players than a game that's supposed to have no holy trinity. (wow vs gw2)

  • @memausz.7264 said:
    What needs to be immediately Nerfed:

    Decap Scrapper (throw mine and personal battering ram need 50% higher cooldown times), Static Shocker needs barrier bonus reduction to 40% of what it is now [even though this hurts core engineers too, it's got to go]
    Holosmith: Reduce Grenade Barrage dmg by 10%, reduce Poison Grenade poison stacks to 1/grenade and reduce poison duration to 6 seconds, remove Lesser Grenade Barrage
    Engineer General: (Remove Daze from Flash bang and replace with

    Instead of gutting the core engineer to oblivion, how about instead addressing the true problem, which is overperforming elite specs? Both holo and scrapper offer too much in one elite trait line compared to core trait lines.

    Scrapper offers solid melee damage, evade, block, mobility and AoE stun in one weapon (hammer) and good access to stability (mass momentum and kinetic stabilizers).

    Holo offers basically an extra kit (photon forge) and added sustain, despite being supposedly "glass cannon" spec (holo is supposed to hit hard, but also has vulnerabilities). By extra sustain I mean stuff like Prismatic Converter (conditions to boon holo trait) and Crystal Configuration: Eclipse (barrier with corona burst) and Crystal Configuration: Zephyr (removal of movement-related conditions and superspeed and cripple). If you take away the defenses of above mentioned holo traits, holo will still hard, but at least it will be easier to snare or kill holo.

    If you remove daze from flash bang, give explosives at least a decent grandmaster trait. Big boomer heals much less than the numbers stated in wiki, the real healing is slightly more than 100 points / second = pretty useless for a GM trait, about 350 per 3 seconds. Even backbag generator (alchemy line master trait) heals better and not that many select it over Emergency Elixir or comeback cure (mostly WvWvW).

    I agree on one thing though. Lesser grenade barrage on heal must go. Using healing skill should not trigger damage skill as bonus, but instead of do something healing related, like cleanse a condition. I would rather see grenade range increased from 900 to 1200 (it used to be 1500 with grenadier trait) or just make grenadier base line and come up with a new trait.

    Ayna / Deniara
    Desolation [EU]

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @RUNICBLACK.7630 said:
    As an alternative how about improving or increasing the duration of reveal on the classes (note that mesmer and the ele doesn't have access to it at all)

    ^This. As an elementalist, I feel a bit like I've gotten lucky and won a prize if a thief ends up actually dying instead of escaping at will. It's one of the most garbage elements of GW2 combat, but the ubiquitous CC spam and stupid amounts of unrestricted mobility on some classes makes it difficult to actually use an otherwise excellent combat system. How about turning down the cheese a bit and letting us actually fight each other, huh? Stealth, mobility, and CC are just on another level in this game and it's just too much.

  • CroTiger.7819CroTiger.7819 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 5, 2020

    Why ppl want to nerf granades when its fully delusional aproach. First of all holowsmith have no tradeoff atleast not real tradeoff like mirage and soulbeast have. Second is that holowsmith and scrapper traits are so bloated with modifiers and buffs. They need to change rune of resistance to normal 45 second cooldown and decap scrapper will be easy to counter with any condi build which is good for game diversity and counterplay. Trait which gives superspeed on heal should get reduced duration aswell so perma superspeed is not a deafault when you play scrapper and that alone is ok. Also they should nerf modifiers on scrapper and holosmith because those proffesions feels same now like core ranger and soulbeast playing same kit. For example scrapper should be support and holo is high dmg but right now scrapper granade can deal more dmg than holo. Function gyro trait shouldn t deal 5k+ instant dmg like it deals now aswell as daze which is super bad balance wise and opposite of intentions. Explosive entrance needs dmg reduced while blind on flashbang should have 1sec duration and thats only thing which need to be nerfed from core engi. Scrapper and Holosmith traitlines are bloated and have almost no real tradeoff and now with those dmg modifiers on both they are doing almost the same role. Try to make zerker druid build with druid traits and it won t work because its support build and i don t know why scrapper became holosmith 2.0.
    Holowsmith tradeoff should be around using kits so when you use granade kit it puts holo forge on cd 5 sec because it already works if you are holo forge but i think it should work opposite direction aswell so they won t be able to just spam things.
    What you forgot is core symbol guardian should get heavy nerf because its most braindead build in game and is currently strongest duelist which says alot. I would even lke more to keep things like this because if they nerf holo and leave this build, meta will be so boring with this kind of playstyles which nobody could take down in reasonable time worth plussing. Burn dh is also very broken condi build which doesn t need you to stack condis because well you can do it fast but for example if mirage or condi thief fails the burst they will need a rest but dh have 4 counts to try again seems fine :) I hope they won t nerf trapper rune just because of this bloated profession for condi (burn) playstyle while power is pretty balanced. Dh burn trapper should not have 4x burns of an fire weaver which needs few skills to achieve that and also have cooldown if it fails spike in difference to dh which can just spam and get rewarded.

  • Shiyo.3578Shiyo.3578 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @Shiyo.3578 said:

    It's just one of those people who think build diversity is good even if it's builds that shouldn't exist in a PvP game at all.

    Proper build diversity: Condi base Necro, Power Reaper, Support scourge(2/3 of these are trash, though)

    Bad build diversity: Bunker base necro, bunker minion scourge, turret bunker eng, decap anything, water weaver.

    Unrelated, but kind of related, I think it's funny that a game where you afk until 15m in for dampening with pure healers has easier to kill players than a game that's supposed to have no holy trinity.

    There is no such thing as "Proper" build diversity...do you know how ridiculous that sounds? There is no "bad" build diversity either... It's completly numerical...you either have less diversity, or more diversity...there is no good or bad.

    You can't talk about a subject you know nothing about.

    Truth is that Decap Scrapper exists because the counter forces that existed that repressed builds like these (High DPS, High Stability builds) don't exist anymore. Nothing changed about the traits to this scrapper build that made it more powerful than it was before...it just exists because it's counters were inadvertently removed...

    There's a lot of builds that simply should not exist in a PvP game. The quicker people. and Anet understand this, the better off the game is.

  • Zeesh.7286Zeesh.7286 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ragnar.4257 said:
    What are these suggestions?

    Flashbang isn't even the worst part of explosives. It's the free 3k damage per dodge from Explosive Entrance, which basically makes EVERY engineer skill a potential burst skill. Flashbang is just the faeces-flavoured cherry on the cake.

    Grenades don't do all that much by themselves. But when a 2k hit becomes a 5k hit, just because the engineer dodged sometime in the last year, that's where the problem is. If they remove grenades, it'll be something else benefiting from a 3k damage boost per dodge.

    It's equivalent to a +100% damage trait. Which is NUTS. The closest equivalent is Opening Strike on Ranger which is +25%. Which would turn a 2k hit into a 2.5k hit. not a 5K hit.

    It needs to have the damage cut at least by 50%, and also a time-limit (3s?).

    this 100%. It's not only grenades, it's the insane synergy between explosive entrance + grenades + the free stacks of might and +% damage modifiers on holo

  • Kodama.6453Kodama.6453 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ragnar.4257 said:
    What are these suggestions?

    Flashbang isn't even the worst part of explosives. It's the free 3k damage per dodge from Explosive Entrance, which basically makes EVERY engineer skill a potential burst skill. Flashbang is just the faeces-flavoured cherry on the cake.

    Grenades don't do all that much by themselves. But when a 2k hit becomes a 5k hit, just because the engineer dodged sometime in the last year, that's where the problem is. If they remove grenades, it'll be something else benefiting from a 3k damage boost per dodge.

    It's equivalent to a +100% damage trait. Which is NUTS. The closest equivalent is Opening Strike on Ranger which is +25%. Which would turn a 2k hit into a 2.5k hit. not a 5K hit.

    It needs to have the damage cut at least by 50%, and also a time-limit (3s?).

    I disagree with explosive entrance getting a time limit, but agree that it should get a damage nerf.

    You compare it with opening strike yourself, which works the same, it is applying the opening strike to the next attack without any time limit.
    There is a reason why they called it "explosive entrance", it's supposed to be the opening strike for engineer which can get refreshed through dodge (while opening strike can get refreshed through fury).

  • Noah Salazar.5430Noah Salazar.5430 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 5, 2020

    Holosmith: Reduce Grenade Barrage dmg by 10%, reduce Poison Grenade poison stacks to 1/grenade and reduce poison duration to 6 seconds, remove Lesser Grenade Barrage

    how many times i need say

    Don't nerf grenades, it will effect scrapper
    nerf Laser Edge

    personal battering ram need 50% higher cooldown times

    Nope, it's have ultra short range, and ez to miss

  • Ragnar.4257Ragnar.4257 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:
    What are these suggestions?

    Flashbang isn't even the worst part of explosives. It's the free 3k damage per dodge from Explosive Entrance, which basically makes EVERY engineer skill a potential burst skill. Flashbang is just the faeces-flavoured cherry on the cake.

    Grenades don't do all that much by themselves. But when a 2k hit becomes a 5k hit, just because the engineer dodged sometime in the last year, that's where the problem is. If they remove grenades, it'll be something else benefiting from a 3k damage boost per dodge.

    It's equivalent to a +100% damage trait. Which is NUTS. The closest equivalent is Opening Strike on Ranger which is +25%. Which would turn a 2k hit into a 2.5k hit. not a 5K hit.

    It needs to have the damage cut at least by 50%, and also a time-limit (3s?).

    I disagree with explosive entrance getting a time limit, but agree that it should get a damage nerf.

    You compare it with opening strike yourself, which works the same, it is applying the opening strike to the next attack without any time limit.
    There is a reason why they called it "explosive entrance", it's supposed to be the opening strike for engineer which can get refreshed through dodge (while opening strike can get refreshed through fury).

    If it can potentially linger forever, it would need to do less damage than Reckless Dodge or Bound, which have to connect immediately, in melee range. Currently it does nearly 3x as much damage as those other damage-on-dodge traits, and doesn't even need to connect in melee.

  • Kodama.6453Kodama.6453 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:
    What are these suggestions?

    Flashbang isn't even the worst part of explosives. It's the free 3k damage per dodge from Explosive Entrance, which basically makes EVERY engineer skill a potential burst skill. Flashbang is just the faeces-flavoured cherry on the cake.

    Grenades don't do all that much by themselves. But when a 2k hit becomes a 5k hit, just because the engineer dodged sometime in the last year, that's where the problem is. If they remove grenades, it'll be something else benefiting from a 3k damage boost per dodge.

    It's equivalent to a +100% damage trait. Which is NUTS. The closest equivalent is Opening Strike on Ranger which is +25%. Which would turn a 2k hit into a 2.5k hit. not a 5K hit.

    It needs to have the damage cut at least by 50%, and also a time-limit (3s?).

    I disagree with explosive entrance getting a time limit, but agree that it should get a damage nerf.

    You compare it with opening strike yourself, which works the same, it is applying the opening strike to the next attack without any time limit.
    There is a reason why they called it "explosive entrance", it's supposed to be the opening strike for engineer which can get refreshed through dodge (while opening strike can get refreshed through fury).

    If it can potentially linger forever, it would need to do less damage than Reckless Dodge or Bound, which have to connect immediately, in melee range. Currently it does nearly 3x as much damage as those other damage-on-dodge traits, and doesn't even need to connect in melee.

    No, it doesn't need to deal less damage than these. The damage just needs to be balanced, which not necessarily means that it has to be lower than these 2 other traits.
    Context matters.

  • Ragnar.4257Ragnar.4257 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:
    What are these suggestions?

    Flashbang isn't even the worst part of explosives. It's the free 3k damage per dodge from Explosive Entrance, which basically makes EVERY engineer skill a potential burst skill. Flashbang is just the faeces-flavoured cherry on the cake.

    Grenades don't do all that much by themselves. But when a 2k hit becomes a 5k hit, just because the engineer dodged sometime in the last year, that's where the problem is. If they remove grenades, it'll be something else benefiting from a 3k damage boost per dodge.

    It's equivalent to a +100% damage trait. Which is NUTS. The closest equivalent is Opening Strike on Ranger which is +25%. Which would turn a 2k hit into a 2.5k hit. not a 5K hit.

    It needs to have the damage cut at least by 50%, and also a time-limit (3s?).

    I disagree with explosive entrance getting a time limit, but agree that it should get a damage nerf.

    You compare it with opening strike yourself, which works the same, it is applying the opening strike to the next attack without any time limit.
    There is a reason why they called it "explosive entrance", it's supposed to be the opening strike for engineer which can get refreshed through dodge (while opening strike can get refreshed through fury).

    If it can potentially linger forever, it would need to do less damage than Reckless Dodge or Bound, which have to connect immediately, in melee range. Currently it does nearly 3x as much damage as those other damage-on-dodge traits, and doesn't even need to connect in melee.

    No, it doesn't need to deal less damage than these. The damage just needs to be balanced, which not necessarily means that it has to be lower than these 2 other traits.
    Context matters.

    Agree that not all traits have to be equivalent.

    But there's no way to justify doing 3x as much damage AND being able to apply it from range.

  • Kodama.6453Kodama.6453 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:
    What are these suggestions?

    Flashbang isn't even the worst part of explosives. It's the free 3k damage per dodge from Explosive Entrance, which basically makes EVERY engineer skill a potential burst skill. Flashbang is just the faeces-flavoured cherry on the cake.

    Grenades don't do all that much by themselves. But when a 2k hit becomes a 5k hit, just because the engineer dodged sometime in the last year, that's where the problem is. If they remove grenades, it'll be something else benefiting from a 3k damage boost per dodge.

    It's equivalent to a +100% damage trait. Which is NUTS. The closest equivalent is Opening Strike on Ranger which is +25%. Which would turn a 2k hit into a 2.5k hit. not a 5K hit.

    It needs to have the damage cut at least by 50%, and also a time-limit (3s?).

    I disagree with explosive entrance getting a time limit, but agree that it should get a damage nerf.

    You compare it with opening strike yourself, which works the same, it is applying the opening strike to the next attack without any time limit.
    There is a reason why they called it "explosive entrance", it's supposed to be the opening strike for engineer which can get refreshed through dodge (while opening strike can get refreshed through fury).

    If it can potentially linger forever, it would need to do less damage than Reckless Dodge or Bound, which have to connect immediately, in melee range. Currently it does nearly 3x as much damage as those other damage-on-dodge traits, and doesn't even need to connect in melee.

    No, it doesn't need to deal less damage than these. The damage just needs to be balanced, which not necessarily means that it has to be lower than these 2 other traits.
    Context matters.

    Agree that not all traits have to be equivalent.

    But there's no way to justify doing 3x as much damage AND being able to apply it from range.

    Hence why I said I agree with a damage nerf, I just disagree with the statement that it needs to deal less damage than bound or reckless dodge.

  • My little brother got oneshot by a holo and now he is grounded for smashing his keyboard. Thanks anet

  • Kodama.6453Kodama.6453 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @FrownyClown.8402 said:
    My little brother got oneshot by a holo and now he is grounded for smashing his keyboard. Thanks anet

    Not sure if just a joke or serious.

  • @Kodama.6453 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:
    What are these suggestions?

    Flashbang isn't even the worst part of explosives. It's the free 3k damage per dodge from Explosive Entrance, which basically makes EVERY engineer skill a potential burst skill. Flashbang is just the faeces-flavoured cherry on the cake.

    Grenades don't do all that much by themselves. But when a 2k hit becomes a 5k hit, just because the engineer dodged sometime in the last year, that's where the problem is. If they remove grenades, it'll be something else benefiting from a 3k damage boost per dodge.

    It's equivalent to a +100% damage trait. Which is NUTS. The closest equivalent is Opening Strike on Ranger which is +25%. Which would turn a 2k hit into a 2.5k hit. not a 5K hit.

    It needs to have the damage cut at least by 50%, and also a time-limit (3s?).

    I disagree with explosive entrance getting a time limit, but agree that it should get a damage nerf.

    You compare it with opening strike yourself, which works the same, it is applying the opening strike to the next attack without any time limit.
    There is a reason why they called it "explosive entrance", it's supposed to be the opening strike for engineer which can get refreshed through dodge (while opening strike can get refreshed through fury).

    If it can potentially linger forever, it would need to do less damage than Reckless Dodge or Bound, which have to connect immediately, in melee range. Currently it does nearly 3x as much damage as those other damage-on-dodge traits, and doesn't even need to connect in melee.

    No, it doesn't need to deal less damage than these. The damage just needs to be balanced, which not necessarily means that it has to be lower than these 2 other traits.
    Context matters.

    Agree that not all traits have to be equivalent.

    But there's no way to justify doing 3x as much damage AND being able to apply it from range.

    Hence why I said I agree with a damage nerf, I just disagree with the statement that it needs to deal less damage than bound or reckless dodge.

    The context is that Explosive Entrance is superior to both Reckless Dodge and Bound in almost every way; higher damage, persistent effect until an attack lands, can apply from any attack which can also turn CC skills that do no damage into 3k setup skills like they were prepatch, has Flashbang to straight upgrade the skill into not only a burst but extremely ridiculous defensive weapon as well. EE should deal significantly less damage than the two previously mentioned dodge skills.

  • I really don't understand why people have such a beef with thief.

    Since the beginning of GW2 Thief has always been seen as a bully and nerfed over and over. The reason shadow arts and daredevil is so prevalent now is because Thief has been nerfed to the point that it NEEDS to use stealth and dodge often to not die instantly.

    People want thief to not stealth as much so the "combat mechanics" of this game can actually be played. Cool! The last time thief had a bruiser type build that could actually team fight was when S/D was popular.

    Thief NEEDS stealth mechanics, shadow arts and daredevil to even exist in rated PvP. There's a reason why having more than one on a team is a huge detriment and why they're ONLY really good for decapping and +1'ing. When Rev first came out, a lot of thief mains swapped over to Rev because they did everything a Thief could but more.

    If Shadow Arts and Daredevil get nerfed much more than you can expect to just not see thief in high rated matches anymore much like Mesmer is now and I'd wager that's what a lot of you seem to be wanting.

    If those aspects of Thief get nerfed, they NEED their survivability buffed in other ways to compensate or their representation will dwindle to that of mesmer, be a detriment to the team and just be replaced entirely by a different class all together.

    Maybe that's what's desired anyways? A fair amount of people who aren't thief mains have historically hated them since pistol whipping was in fashion on the beta.

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 8, 2020

    decap scrap is really weak to condis, its a very easy build to counter. also counter ccs cuz they're most likely only running 1 maybe 2 stun breaks. will absolutely crumble under a 2v1. yeah but lets just make everything a soft counter and kill diversity so people don't have to worry about counters and rotation.

    Te lazla otstara.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Anomaly.7612 said:
    I really don't understand why people have such a beef with thief.

    Since the beginning of GW2 Thief has always been seen as a bully and nerfed over and over. The reason shadow arts and daredevil is so prevalent now is because Thief has been nerfed to the point that it NEEDS to use stealth and dodge often to not die instantly.

    People want thief to not stealth as much so the "combat mechanics" of this game can actually be played. Cool! The last time thief had a bruiser type build that could actually team fight was when S/D was popular.

    Thief NEEDS stealth mechanics, shadow arts and daredevil to even exist in rated PvP. There's a reason why having more than one on a team is a huge detriment and why they're ONLY really good for decapping and +1'ing. When Rev first came out, a lot of thief mains swapped over to Rev because they did everything a Thief could but more.

    If Shadow Arts and Daredevil get nerfed much more than you can expect to just not see thief in high rated matches anymore much like Mesmer is now and I'd wager that's what a lot of you seem to be wanting.

    If those aspects of Thief get nerfed, they NEED their survivability buffed in other ways to compensate or their representation will dwindle to that of mesmer, be a detriment to the team and just be replaced entirely by a different class all together.

    Maybe that's what's desired anyways? A fair amount of people who aren't thief mains have historically hated them since pistol whipping was in fashion on the beta.

    Eh, not really. Thief uses SA because its the highest reliable damage traitline. The fact that it buffs stealth is not important, if not outright irrelevant. You dont use stealth in-combat anyway, and out of combat the stealth buffs SA gives do literally nothing. And no, thief doesnt need stealth, thief just needs shortbow 5. As long as thief has that skill, they will always be viable, even if they do little damage and cant survive at all as they do now.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I want you lads to compare EE with https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Riddle_of_Sand
    xd

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    I want you lads to compare EE with https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Riddle_of_Sand
    xd

    Nah you have to compare it with something that does multiple stuff at once like https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lesser_Mark_of_Blood#WvW.2CPvP .

  • Terrorhuz.4695Terrorhuz.4695 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 11, 2020

    @memausz.7264 said:
    What needs to be immediately Nerfed:

    Decap Scrapper (throw mine and personal battering ram need 50% higher cooldown times), Static Shocker needs barrier bonus reduction to 40% of what it is now [even though this hurts core engineers too, it's got to go]
    Holosmith: Reduce Grenade Barrage dmg by 10%, reduce Poison Grenade poison stacks to 1/grenade and reduce poison duration to 6 seconds, remove Lesser Grenade Barrage
    Engineer General: (Remove Daze from Flash bang and replace with

    Thieves: Shadow Arts needs to be addressed or if it cannot, reworked; the strength of the stealth synergy is way too high on daredevils. They have unmatched mobility, do a lot of damage (7 K backstabs from stealth and an unblockable daze via Swipe that has 0 cast time forcing other players to guess dodge), avoid getting hit because of so much stealth and 150 endurance bar, and cannot be crippled, immobilized, or chilled because of Unhindered Combatant Trait. Now I don't mind the damage and mobility synergy, given Thieves are in the lowest base health pool, but the stealth is just too much. Needs to go. The stealth mechanic in competitive is a problem anyway because if someone does that much damage, you SHOULD see it coming. Addressing Shadow Arts would also reduce the unbreakable chain of CCs that deadeyes can exert on a target - CC, immobilize, dmg, repeat until the target is dead.

    For Condi thief specifically: Reduce the stacks of confusion that pistols can apply. A response to a condi thief shouldn't be the thing killing an opponent.

    Elementalists
    Tempests: Shock Aura should daze rather than stun, especially given Powerful Aura's AoE potential on 4 other allies, it shuts down another team's fighting potential entirely unless they have a guard. With daze, at least a team or player can run away.

    About daredevils I feel the opposite. Stealth can stay (it has counters as you can stun the thief while he does his thing, slam heavy AoE on the field, reveal). Unhindered combatants, however... immunity to cripple, chilled, immob and EVEN MORE MOBILITY? Basically you can't stun a thief, you can't chase a thief, you can't slow down a thief, whatever you do the thief just resets? That trait needs to go, thieves already have way too many defensive options already. And the other two gm traits can be buffed a bit, they are quite weak now.

  • Exitus.3297Exitus.3297 Member ✭✭✭

    @memausz.7264 said:

    Thieves: Shadow Arts needs to be addressed or if it cannot, reworked; the strength of the stealth synergy is way too high on daredevils. They have unmatched mobility, do a lot of damage (7 K backstabs from stealth and an unblockable daze via Swipe that has 0 cast time forcing other players to guess dodge), avoid getting hit because of so much stealth and 150 endurance bar, and cannot be crippled, immobilized, or chilled because of Unhindered Combatant Trait. Now I don't mind the damage and mobility synergy, given Thieves are in the lowest base health pool, but the stealth is just too much. Needs to go. The stealth mechanic in competitive is a problem anyway because if someone does that much damage, you SHOULD see it coming. Addressing Shadow Arts would also reduce the unbreakable chain of CCs that deadeyes can exert on a target - CC, immobilize, dmg, repeat until the target is dead.

    For Condi thief specifically: Reduce the stacks of confusion that pistols can apply. A response to a condi thief shouldn't be the thing killing an opponent.

    Not to sound rude, but I read this and it makes me think you don't play Thief (E.G. the Confusion stacking comes from Steal, not Pistol).

    If you are talking about 7k Backstabs, you have to be referring to WvW. I play Berserker Stats with Scholar in sPvP (where the Meta is Runes of Divinity) and I could never imagine pumping out such numbers even on cloth-wearing classes with SA. The highest I can get is just shy of 6k under the right circumstances and my average is around 4k depending on who I hit. Right now there is virtually no circumstance in sPvP where a Thief can actually one-shot someone running SA. It may have some life-leech procs helping it's damage but the damage is not that substantial compared to that of Critical Strikes or even Deadly Arts. A Thief running Marauder Amulet with Scholar runes and Deadly Arts can put out just as much damage as a SA Thief running Berserker Amulet and Divinity Runes, if not more. But obviously, you aren't complaining about the damage, you're attention is on the stealth.

    In sPvP SA isn't as strong as you think it is. As stated above, it is a damage loss compared to other Specs since they nerfed the Life Leech damage. The stealth in and of itself isn't as valuable as you think because in order to win games you need to cap nodes, and you can't cap nodes in stealth. Thieves primarily take it so they can roam the map undisturbed because otherwise they would just get chased and/or murdered. Even then, halfway decent players can more or less predict where the Thief is going to be.

    In WvW it's obviously a different animal. Stats are much more inflated . This makes Thieves much more threatening even with SA, but it also makes everyone else more threatening. I can tell you right now a single Sic 'Em combo from Soulbeasts is enough to kill a Thief by itself if they are hit by it in full (and they don't even have to be glass). Revenants can do something similar. Thieves have to compensate for this by simply not being an option to pick off. In order to solve this problem that you are describing with the amount of stealth they have, you need to also solve why they are so reliant on it to begin with. I main a Thief but I can still sympathize with this problem because of how annoying it can be to fight. But that's mostly what it is... Annoying. I imagine a partial fix to this would be to put the Revealed duration to be 4 seconds in WvW like in sPvP instead of 3. Scouts revealing Thieves from far away partially solved this problem as well.

    Deadeyes themselves, however, are legitimately busted and need to be addressed (note how I said 'busted' and not 'overpowered'). For some reason, the Reveal duration on their rifle skills is 3 seconds instead of 4, including in sPvP. Considering it takes a decent chunk of time (a second or 2) to close the gap on them after they reveal themselves, it essentially sets them up to disappear by the time you get to them. I think it is very odd that every other Thief build has to deal with a 4 second Revealed timer and take the risk of being in Melee while the Deadeye gets a reduced duration Reveal while still having the benefit of being ranged (and being able to stealth by dodging). Combine that with the fact that Skirmisher's Shot for some reason does more damage than Double-tap, pierces and slows targets, it puts Deadeyes in a position where all they have to do is spam 2 without kneeling (having the benefit of being mobile) with the Malificent Seven trait, gaining permanent Vigor with it, and doing tons of damage because they never run out of initiative and simply dodging into Stealth the very second someone starts doing damage to them. It's the most obnoxious thing to fight and the most braindead thing to play. Well, the fix here is easy.... Increase the Revealed duration and shift some of the damage in Skirmisher's Shot back to Double-Tap. Reducing the Immob duration on Spotter's shot would also make it less obnoxious.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    what difference in this post between "boost some class" ?? I don't see that. As for me we otherwise need boost heal rev, scrapper, and condi thief.
    I I don't care any balance, I want bring some class historical domination. I am sure it more good, than try find some balance between class, build and different PLAYER's SKILL

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • Thieves: Shadow Arts needs to be addressed or if it cannot, reworked; the strength of the stealth synergy is way too high on daredevils. They have unmatched mobility, do a lot of damage (7 K backstabs from stealth and an unblockable daze via Swipe that has 0 cast time forcing other players to guess dodge),

    You aren't getting 7k backstabs in PvP and definitely not if you don't hit the positional. Backstab is a resource intensive action. Set up with stealth and position. It's not normally hit optimally anyway. Average hits around 4.5 in PvP with meta build.

    avoid getting hit because of so much stealth and 150 endurance bar, and cannot be crippled, immobilized, or chilled because of Unhindered Combatant Trait.

    This starves the thief of endurance. Which lets you hit them...

    Now I don't mind the damage and mobility synergy, given Thieves are in the lowest base health pool, but the stealth is just too much. Needs to go. The stealth mechanic in competitive is a problem anyway because if someone does that much damage, you SHOULD see it coming. Addressing Shadow Arts would also reduce the unbreakable chain of CCs that deadeyes can exert on a target - CC, immobilize, dmg, repeat until the target is dead.

    Shadow arts doesn't really help that much in combat. It's just a source of consistent damage and allows for stalls in WvW. But this is SPvP you're talking about so not relevant. Time camping stealth is time not capping or +1ing. And what do you mean chain cc on deadeye? (Not a PvP competitive class btw) You mean pistol spam? That has nothing to do with stealth.

  • Terrorhuz.4695Terrorhuz.4695 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 12, 2020

    @SteepledHat.1345 said:

    avoid getting hit because of so much stealth and 150 endurance bar, and cannot be crippled, immobilized, or chilled because of Unhindered Combatant Trait.

    This starves the thief of endurance. Which lets you hit them...

    Yeah, right? Imagine if they had a signet which adds yet another fourth dodge to the 3 they already have, a whole lot of vigor to quickly regenerate said dodges, perma switfness, another healing skill that is also a dodge (or one that grant anywhere from 2 to 6 seconds of stealth, your pick), 2 more seconds of evade on the elite if they run dagger storm, whatever evade they get on their weapon and by the time they consume all of that 2 dodges are back again.

    I KNOW they don't have all of that, it'd be busted amirite? Ahhahahaha! But imagine if they did!

  • wevh.2903wevh.2903 Member ✭✭✭

    @CroTiger.7819 said:
    Why ppl want to nerf granades when its fully delusional aproach. First of all holowsmith have no tradeoff atleast not real tradeoff like mirage and soulbeast have. Second is that holowsmith and scrapper traits are so bloated with modifiers and buffs. They need to change rune of resistance to normal 45 second cooldown and decap scrapper will be easy to counter with any condi build which is good for game diversity and counterplay. Trait which gives superspeed on heal should get reduced duration aswell so perma superspeed is not a deafault when you play scrapper and that alone is ok. Also they should nerf modifiers on scrapper and holosmith because those proffesions feels same now like core ranger and soulbeast playing same kit. For example scrapper should be support and holo is high dmg but right now scrapper granade can deal more dmg than holo. Function gyro trait shouldn t deal 5k+ instant dmg like it deals now aswell as daze which is super bad balance wise and opposite of intentions. Explosive entrance needs dmg reduced while blind on flashbang should have 1sec duration and thats only thing which need to be nerfed from core engi. Scrapper and Holosmith traitlines are bloated and have almost no real tradeoff and now with those dmg modifiers on both they are doing almost the same role. Try to make zerker druid build with druid traits and it won t work because its support build and i don t know why scrapper became holosmith 2.0.
    Holowsmith tradeoff should be around using kits so when you use granade kit it puts holo forge on cd 5 sec because it already works if you are holo forge but i think it should work opposite direction aswell so they won t be able to just spam things.
    What you forgot is core symbol guardian should get heavy nerf because its most braindead build in game and is currently strongest duelist which says alot. I would even lke more to keep things like this because if they nerf holo and leave this build, meta will be so boring with this kind of playstyles which nobody could take down in reasonable time worth plussing. Burn dh is also very broken condi build which doesn t need you to stack condis because well you can do it fast but for example if mirage or condi thief fails the burst they will need a rest but dh have 4 counts to try again seems fine :) I hope they won t nerf trapper rune just because of this bloated profession for condi (burn) playstyle while power is pretty balanced. Dh burn trapper should not have 4x burns of an fire weaver which needs few skills to achieve that and also have cooldown if it fails spike in difference to dh which can just spam and get rewarded.

    A condi tank ranger main wanting to nerf resistance runes hahaha xddd

  • anduriell.6280anduriell.6280 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:
    What are these suggestions?

    Flashbang isn't even the worst part of explosives. It's the free 3k damage per dodge from Explosive Entrance, which basically makes EVERY engineer skill a potential burst skill. Flashbang is just the faeces-flavoured cherry on the cake.

    Grenades don't do all that much by themselves. But when a 2k hit becomes a 5k hit, just because the engineer dodged sometime in the last year, that's where the problem is. If they remove grenades, it'll be something else benefiting from a 3k damage boost per dodge.

    It's equivalent to a +100% damage trait. Which is NUTS. The closest equivalent is Opening Strike on Ranger which is +25%. Which would turn a 2k hit into a 2.5k hit. not a 5K hit.

    It needs to have the damage cut at least by 50%, and also a time-limit (3s?).

    I disagree with explosive entrance getting a time limit, but agree that it should get a damage nerf.

    You compare it with opening strike yourself, which works the same, it is applying the opening strike to the next attack without any time limit.
    There is a reason why they called it "explosive entrance", it's supposed to be the opening strike for engineer which can get refreshed through dodge (while opening strike can get refreshed through fury).

    The difference there with Ranger is ranger needs to take 2 different traitlines and 2 specific grandmasters to have access to that effect reliably. And it's bounded to Survival skills cooldown (20s minimum) . Explosive entrance is a minor which combines the effects of a ranger Grandmaster on itself.

    I agree with the OP, that skill needs the damage nerf and an ICD. I don't think even 3s would be enough thou.
    Explosive entrance should have a 5s ICD at least, the same as Strider Defense

  • CroTiger.7819CroTiger.7819 Member ✭✭✭

    @wevh.2903 said:

    A condi tank ranger main wanting to nerf resistance runes hahaha xddd

    Im not tank but fair enough. This runes provide some nice condi sustain but my point was that this thing keep this build viable only and not even knockbacks. I agree this will hurt proffesions like power rev which is not my intention thought...

  • @CroTiger.7819 said:

    @wevh.2903 said:

    A condi tank ranger main wanting to nerf resistance runes hahaha xddd

    Im not tank but fair enough. This runes provide some nice condi sustain but my point was that this thing keep this build viable only and not even knockbacks. I agree this will hurt proffesions like power rev which is not my intention thought...

    Let's make some of the other runes less trash before we nerf one of the consistently good ones.

  • wevh.2903wevh.2903 Member ✭✭✭

    @CroTiger.7819 said:

    @wevh.2903 said:

    A condi tank ranger main wanting to nerf resistance runes hahaha xddd

    Im not tank but fair enough. This runes provide some nice condi sustain but my point was that this thing keep this build viable only and not even knockbacks. I agree this will hurt proffesions like power rev which is not my intention thought...

    Delete kitten skills like mines and problem solved

  • @wevh.2903 said:

    @CroTiger.7819 said:

    @wevh.2903 said:

    A condi tank ranger main wanting to nerf resistance runes hahaha xddd

    Im not tank but fair enough. This runes provide some nice condi sustain but my point was that this thing keep this build viable only and not even knockbacks. I agree this will hurt proffesions like power rev which is not my intention thought...

    Delete kitten skills like mines and problem solved

    No need to delete it but you can make it not unblockable or raise the CD, something before just getting rid of it.

  • Kodama.6453Kodama.6453 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 12, 2020

    @anduriell.6280 said:

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:
    What are these suggestions?

    Flashbang isn't even the worst part of explosives. It's the free 3k damage per dodge from Explosive Entrance, which basically makes EVERY engineer skill a potential burst skill. Flashbang is just the faeces-flavoured cherry on the cake.

    Grenades don't do all that much by themselves. But when a 2k hit becomes a 5k hit, just because the engineer dodged sometime in the last year, that's where the problem is. If they remove grenades, it'll be something else benefiting from a 3k damage boost per dodge.

    It's equivalent to a +100% damage trait. Which is NUTS. The closest equivalent is Opening Strike on Ranger which is +25%. Which would turn a 2k hit into a 2.5k hit. not a 5K hit.

    It needs to have the damage cut at least by 50%, and also a time-limit (3s?).

    I disagree with explosive entrance getting a time limit, but agree that it should get a damage nerf.

    You compare it with opening strike yourself, which works the same, it is applying the opening strike to the next attack without any time limit.
    There is a reason why they called it "explosive entrance", it's supposed to be the opening strike for engineer which can get refreshed through dodge (while opening strike can get refreshed through fury).

    The difference there with Ranger is ranger needs to take 2 different traitlines and 2 specific grandmasters to have access to that effect reliably. And it's bounded to Survival skills cooldown (20s minimum) . Explosive entrance is a minor which combines the effects of a ranger Grandmaster on itself.

    I agree with the OP, that skill needs the damage nerf and an ICD. I don't think even 3s would be enough thou.
    Explosive entrance should have a 5s ICD at least, the same as Strider Defense

    Strider's defense can potentially get triggered whenever you evade an attack, meaning that you can apply it more frequently than with a dodge trait like explosive entrance, which just and solely works on dodge.

    So I disagree, explosive entrance shouldn't have an icd.

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @wevh.2903 said:

    @CroTiger.7819 said:

    @wevh.2903 said:

    A condi tank ranger main wanting to nerf resistance runes hahaha xddd

    Im not tank but fair enough. This runes provide some nice condi sustain but my point was that this thing keep this build viable only and not even knockbacks. I agree this will hurt proffesions like power rev which is not my intention thought...

    Delete kitten skills like mines and problem solved

    No need to delete it but you can make it not unblockable or raise the CD, something before just getting rid of it.

    Throw mine should stay unblockable. Engineer doesn't have alot of access to unblockable, so removing that part would hurt. Also throw mine basically functions as a ranged trap, even if it is considered a gadget. All traps are unblockable, I think it is consistent that throw mine also gets to be unblockable.

  • Azreell.1568Azreell.1568 Member ✭✭✭

    Another nerf thread about x class.

    It’s going to get to the point where all class play is so generic and homogenized that even less people play then now.

  • EE should honestly get a damage nerf and it should be consumed the next attack the engi does no matter if it is aimed at a target. In addition, enhanced storage needs it's might cut by a good amount, at least in half in potency or cooldown

  • memausz.7264memausz.7264 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 13, 2020

    Boom, my post is vindicated. YEET.

    And sevenshot was nerfed, too, which is welcome. I played renegade and for it's damage it could do with spirits and sevenshot, it was too tanky.

  • @memausz.7264 said:
    Boom, my post is vindicated. YEET.

    And sevenshot was nerfed, too, which is welcome. I played renegade and for it's damage it could do with spirits and sevenshot, it was too tanky.

    Ehh, Flashbang literally got another meme nerf we all predicted it would get, which will change literally nothing.

    Sevenshot didn't get nerfed by that much and we still have Kalla doing as much damage and CC as before. I doubt much will change besides decap Scrapper being likely gone.