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Asgeir, Braham, and the future of the Icebrood Saga story

Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited October 6, 2020 in Lore

So I noticed something interesting going back, and rereading, Asgeir's journal "A Burden", and how it possibly relates to the Icebrood Saga story, and Braham.

If we read "A Burden", and look at the other lore behind Asgeir's fight with Jormag, Asgeir lost to Jormag because

  1. He allowed Jormag to make him doubt his actions
  2. His hunting party was killed, leaving him to fight Jormag alone, and thus be alone to be manipulated by Jormag
  3. He lacked the physical and mental strength to keep fighting
  4. Arguably, he made the mistake of fighting Jormag too head on, allowing all of the above to happe

When it comes to Braham, we have already been told by the Spirits of the Wild that Braham is now part of a prophecy, and that either Braham must kill Jormag, or Jormag will kill him. Braham has also mimicked several of Asgeir's actions, both by getting a weapon infused with Jotun fire magic, as Asgeir had, and by getting the Spirits of the Wild to channel their energies through him to slay one of Jormag's champions(Drakkar) as Asgeir did Frostfang.
Looking back on episodes 1 and 2

  1. In Episode 1 we got to interact with Raven, and take Raven's trials. During these trials the Commander comments they are unsure if the decision they made was correct, we began to doubt our choices. However, Jhavi reminds us that Raven teaches there are no right answers to any situation.
  2. In Episode 2 we got to interact with Wolf. Wolf made the Commander and Braham work together to get the Lost Spirit's powers, and pushed Braham to consider his "party". This allowed Braham to turn into the Wolf at the end, when the Commander's life was threaten by Bangar.

I suspect that in episode 5 and 6 we will meet with Bear and Snow Leopard. Bear will make us do something that requires us to keep pushing through the pain and exhaustion to keep fighting, and Snow Leopard will have us do something that encourages us to use non-direct tactics against Jormag, as fits with those two spirits ascribed elements.

Essentially, the Spirits are teaching the Commander and Braham how not to fail in the inevitable fight against Jormag as Asgeir did. Getting the bow back, and Braham being able to channel the Spirit's powers, will be key in defeating Jormag, as well as the lessons learned here.

Comments

  • Stephen.6312Stephen.6312 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 6, 2020

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    So I noticed something interesting going back, and rereading, Asgeir's journal "A Burden", and how it possibly relates to the Icebrood Saga story, and Braham.

    If we read "A Burden", and look at the other lore behind Asgeir's fight with Jormag, Asgeir lost to Jormag because

    1. He allowed Jormag to make him doubt his actions
    2. His hunting party was killed, leaving him to fight Jormag alone, and thus be alone to be manipulated by Jormag
    3. He lacked the physical and mental strength to keep fighting
    4. Arguably, he made the mistake of fighting Jormag too head on, allowing all of the above to happe

    When it comes to Braham, we have already been told by the Spirits of the Wild that Braham is now part of a prophecy, and that either Braham must kill Jormag, or Jormag will kill him. Braham has also mimicked several of Asgeir's actions, both by getting a weapon infused with Jotun fire magic, as Asgeir had, and by getting the Spirits of the Wild to channel their energies through him to slay one of Jormag's champions(Drakkar) as Asgeir did Frostfang.
    Looking back on episodes 1 and 2

    1. In Episode 1 we got to interact with Raven, and take Raven's trials. During these trials the Commander comments they are unsure if the decision they made was correct, we began to doubt our choices. However, Jhavi reminds us that Raven teaches there are no right answers to any situation.
    2. In Episode 2 we got to interact with Wolf. Wolf made the Commander and Braham work together to get the Lost Spirit's powers, and pushed Braham to consider his "party". This allowed Braham to turn into the Wolf at the end, when the Commander's life was threaten by Bangar.

    I suspect that in episode 5 and 6 we will meet with Bear and Snow Leopard. Bear will make us do something that requires us to keep pushing through the pain and exhaustion to keep fighting, and Snow Leopard will have us do something that encourages us to use non-direct tactics against Jormag, as fits with those two spirits ascribed elements.

    Essentially, the Spirits are teaching the Commander and Braham how not to fail in the inevitable fight against Jormag as Asgeir did. Getting the bow back, and Braham being able to channel the Spirit's powers, will be key in defeating Jormag, as well as the lessons learned here.

    I do wonder if it's all a little too clear-cut to be correct. But you've made some good observations that've got me considering.

    Look, I think that the business of Braham and Jormag needs to be put on hold. We've got the DSD to contend with and, in my opinion, there are very few armies capable of withstanding an assault from aquatic spellcasters. Jormag has managed to amass a diverse range of fighters, primarily norn and charr, arguably the most competent warriors of the Pact.

    All of this makes me contemplate the ultimate fate of Aesgir. I believe that, with time, Aesgir came to realize that Jormag really does intend to preserve the norn race, not by corrupting them either. Sure, many norn have been corrupted, but not all of them. Furthermore, Aesgir concluded that some of his own people must be conscripted in order to save all of his people. What do I think happened to Aesgir? He became the Fraenir, willingly sacrificing himself to save his people.

    In light of Aesgir's possible fate, I am prepared to question everything that we have experienced in the IBS thus far.

    Want to delve into some theories about the lore and story of GW2? Check these posts out: The Search For Answers P1 and The Search For Answers P2.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stephen.6312 said:

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    So I noticed something interesting going back, and rereading, Asgeir's journal "A Burden", and how it possibly relates to the Icebrood Saga story, and Braham.

    If we read "A Burden", and look at the other lore behind Asgeir's fight with Jormag, Asgeir lost to Jormag because

    1. He allowed Jormag to make him doubt his actions
    2. His hunting party was killed, leaving him to fight Jormag alone, and thus be alone to be manipulated by Jormag
    3. He lacked the physical and mental strength to keep fighting
    4. Arguably, he made the mistake of fighting Jormag too head on, allowing all of the above to happe

    When it comes to Braham, we have already been told by the Spirits of the Wild that Braham is now part of a prophecy, and that either Braham must kill Jormag, or Jormag will kill him. Braham has also mimicked several of Asgeir's actions, both by getting a weapon infused with Jotun fire magic, as Asgeir had, and by getting the Spirits of the Wild to channel their energies through him to slay one of Jormag's champions(Drakkar) as Asgeir did Frostfang.
    Looking back on episodes 1 and 2

    1. In Episode 1 we got to interact with Raven, and take Raven's trials. During these trials the Commander comments they are unsure if the decision they made was correct, we began to doubt our choices. However, Jhavi reminds us that Raven teaches there are no right answers to any situation.
    2. In Episode 2 we got to interact with Wolf. Wolf made the Commander and Braham work together to get the Lost Spirit's powers, and pushed Braham to consider his "party". This allowed Braham to turn into the Wolf at the end, when the Commander's life was threaten by Bangar.

    I suspect that in episode 5 and 6 we will meet with Bear and Snow Leopard. Bear will make us do something that requires us to keep pushing through the pain and exhaustion to keep fighting, and Snow Leopard will have us do something that encourages us to use non-direct tactics against Jormag, as fits with those two spirits ascribed elements.

    Essentially, the Spirits are teaching the Commander and Braham how not to fail in the inevitable fight against Jormag as Asgeir did. Getting the bow back, and Braham being able to channel the Spirit's powers, will be key in defeating Jormag, as well as the lessons learned here.

    I do wonder if it's all a little too clear-cut to be correct. But you've made some good observations that've got me considering.

    Look, I think that the business of Braham and Jormag needs to be put on hold. We've got the DSD to contend with and, in my opinion, there are very few armies capable of withstanding an assault from aquatic spellcasters. Jormag has managed to amass a diverse range of fighters, primarily norn and charr, arguably the most competent warriors of the Pact.

    All of this makes me contemplate the ultimate fate of Aesgir. I believe that, with time, Aesgir came to realize that Jormag really does intend to preserve the norn race, not by corrupting them either. Sure, many norn have been corrupted, but not all of them. Furthermore, Aesgir concluded that some of his own people must be conscripted in order to save all of his people. What do I think happened to Aesgir? He became the Fraenir, willingly sacrificing himself to save his people.

    In light of Aesgir's possible fate, I am prepared to question everything that we have experienced in the IBS thus far.

    I mean its either him or svanir for the next revenant legend, so I actually think we might find out from the horses mouth what happened. Id actually really like if he did become the fraenir but at the same time I kind of hope he is STILL alive if he has given himself to jormag; Perhaps like Svanir 2.0 and we get to meet him. But he is one of the few Icebrood we meet who does not wish to fight, and meets with us in confidence with the spirits watching. We then get a cinematic where he describes what happened and why; And we see him give himself to the dragon to spare us.

    We then find out that the Sons of Svanir have been at war, with themselves and now the charr as none of jormags minions truly leave their free will unless made that way like bangar. Asgeir warns us that fighting Jormag is wrong and we get to ask him why, he then states jormags intentions as he himself believes them to be and tells us that Jormag isn't in this for what the typical dragon would be? I actually... kinda hope they redeem jormag... and that Jormag while warped and misguided in its attempts truly means well, in its own odd way where Aurene can step up and basically confront Jormag.. The two have an exchange where Aurene challenges Jormags mind-set and offers to "help" in showing Jormag the way to really get some work done. Then the two depart or well they leave us, as Aurene and Jormag enter the mists more than likely to repair the damage Kralk had done and continue to talk. Jormag teaching Aurene her heirtage and telling her of what the previous cycles were like, and Aurene showing Jormag how to become more than it currently is. Thus giving it purpose, and understanding it otherwise would of lacked~

    It would be nice to NOT kill the dragon for once. And Jormag is honestly the most mysterious of the what we have left outside of bubbles, I think it would be neat to set up a pantheon of dragons... perhaps Jormag and Aurene even find a way to replace the dragons we've felled with a better canidate/solution? Time will tell.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 6, 2020

    @Stephen.6312 said:
    Look, I think that the business of Braham and Jormag needs to be put on hold. We've got the DSD to contend with and, in my opinion, there are very few armies capable of withstanding an assault from aquatic spellcasters. Jormag has managed to amass a diverse range of fighters, primarily norn and charr, arguably the most competent warriors of the Pact.

    I don't see why the DSD's armies would be any more or less competent/powerful then any of the other dragon's armies. Even if it was, I don't see why we would make the proverbial deal with the devil to try to stop it instead of doing what we have done with any of the other dragon's armies, which is make new allies, and develop new technology, and tactics, to defeat it. We have an entire continent of possible new allies in Cantha.

    All of this makes me contemplate the ultimate fate of Aesgir. I believe that, with time, Aesgir came to realize that Jormag really does intend to preserve the norn race, not by corrupting them either. Sure, many norn have been corrupted, but not all of them. Furthermore, Aesgir concluded that some of his own people must be conscripted in order to save all of his people. What do I think happened to Aesgir? He became the Fraenir, willingly sacrificing himself to save his people.

    If anything, "A Burden" suggests the opposite. The last lines are even

    "I'm doing the right thing. I'm giving the norn a future. Why does it feel as though I gave up? As though I could've won, if only I'd pushed through the pain and exhaustion?
    The voice spoke true. I'll carry this burden for as long as I live. I only hope whoever takes it up when I'm gone can handle the weight of it. "

    Showing Asgeir believed he did the wrong thing by listening to Jormag.

    Besides, what has Jormag done to suggest its being honest?

    • It lied to Asgier about leaving the Norn alone if they went south
    • It manipulated Bangar into starting a massively devastating civil war among the Charr, which also led to the genocide of the Drizzlewood communities
    • It used its "Voice" to manipulate the soldiers of Jora's Keep into killing each other
    • It also used its "Voice" to manipulate the Kodan, and Vigil Relief soldiers, into walking out into the snow and ice to lay down and die
    • Its mentally attacked Marjory, by using her dead sisters voice
    • Its lied/misled Bangar, its own pawn, into thinking it would make him its champion, when, in reality, it made him a slave in the form of its new "Voice"
    • Its tired multiple times to break down, and turn our allies against us, be it Braham, Rytlock, or Crecia
    • It continues to feed off of the power of the Spirits of the Wild, even though they are clearly against it

    Jormag's claims of wanting to help are no different then the claims made by Zhaitan's minions that Zhaitan simply wants to help everyone avoid the pain of death and loss.... by forcibly making everyone undead Risen. And Jormag has done thing but use similar tactics. Remember, as it itself has said "ice forties, ice protects", its idea of "helping" is almost certainly something devastating like freezing the whole world into ice to stop the cycle or something ridiculous like that. And even Aurene calls out Jormag's actions in the latest "Confer with Bangar" achievement step.

    Also, the Fraenir is stated to be a Son of Svanir that was chosen by Jormag for the position, so its not Asgeir.

  • Why is everyone assuming that Jormag is good? Nothing he has done has been good. He has tried to drive our allies crazy and sucidal. He helped manipulate the char into a civil war while using them to help him reawaken. He has broken his promises and still sent his forces against us. He's not going to side with us. Its roar caused a four year long blizzard, destroying koden sanctuaries and is using the spirts of the wild as a battery.

    Tell me how any of this is good for us or Tyria?

  • @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    If we read "A Burden" [...]

    I've read a burden, yes. I... have a copy of it in a shared inventory slot. What of it??

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    Asgeir lost to Jormag because

    1. He allowed Jormag to make him doubt his actions
    2. His hunting party was killed, leaving him to fight Jormag alone, and thus be alone to be manipulated by Jormag
    3. He lacked the physical and mental strength to keep fighting
    4. Arguably, he made the mistake of fighting Jormag too head on, allowing all of the above to happe

    What a peculiar presumption, a perplexing perspective... It might be due to being a highly-sensitive person, an empath, but I've never really been given to calling compassion a sign of weakness. I do see that rather toxic ideology bandied around a lot, yes, but I don't prescribe to it myself. If one listens, one is weak; If one is kind, one is weak; If one dares deviate from the utter and immediate oblitteration of that which is unlike them, one is weak. I'm not a fan.

    Asgeir didn't "lose" as that wasn't the situation. Asgeir listened, Asgeir had a little think about it, and Asgeir learned. I wish that real people were as reflective as fictive characters. To my mind, it takes more bravery to show compassion and to dare to let an assumed foe live in the attempt to foster respect and choose the teething troubles of co-existence. A murder is a very final, absolute thing after all. The murder of another in a setting like this without commonplace surveillance and well-established law is something that one can walk away from and never really look back. It's much more of an effort to try and live with those who're dissimilar than merely eradicate them.

    Asgeir had the wherewithal to realise that his erstwhile foe was not so much a foe indeed, simply... different. One who had been met with hostility for little more than being a powerful creature that would've provided any norn with the might to slay them a legend. Such a chance is ambrosia to a nord so it means little whether diplomacy could be achieved. Asgeir saw that, in a way, Jormag was as much a victim of norn ambition as they were of the dragon's drive to survive. There was the possibility to talk it out, if only they'd listen. Would they? Probably not, but maybe they should?

    Jormag's been in a position where they've had to defend themself against anyone seeking a legend; not just themself either, but their branded charges, their children... I think that the address to Bangar—The Icebrood Saga trailer—was Jormag openly admitting their own vulnerability as much as anything else. What startled me was the meta-event in Drizzlewood involving the Claw of Jormag. He didn't exactly look like the most intimidating of fiends, did he? Cowering behind a column of ice in much the same way a bear might hide behind a tree from an ordery Elmer Fudd. I wouldn't call that a display of strength. If anything, it looked like the poor little baim was terrified. I mean, his mother was asleep and he didn't fancy his chances. Regardless, he was there to try to defend his sire, his parent. Awful business, that. I'm glad I didn't do it.

    It's not like the situation changed when the aforementioned pillar was destroyed, either; he just up and left, or tried to. Got shot out of the sky, of course, and ended up having what looked like a panic attack before keeling over. I'm really glad I didn't play any part in that. I passed that particular test of empathy. I'm not doing that to the poor bae.

    The point is is that Jormag is a persuasive, diplomatic dragon though they're hardly the strongest. It's going to be difficult for them to look out for their children, and even themself. Their best hope is that their capacity for persuasion leads to an amicable conclusion sans bloodshed. Of course, there are those who'd claim that Jormag needn't fear if they can control minds. They can't, of course, is the truth. I'd point out how Dragon's Watch routinely resisted their power, though knowing that isn't enough I'd also cite Tom Abernathy's own words on the matter. He has said many a time—until he's blue in the face—that Jormag's powers can't manifest that way. From what I gather, it's more like a convincing argument.

    If one is as powerful as Kralkatorrik one might not fear. If one has suffered as much as Kralkatorrik has, on emight indeed welcome death rather than fear it. If a dragon happened to eat a lich so that they can't really die in the first place, they needn't really fear death either! However, Jormag has much to live for coupled with no such invulnerability, so I'd posit they do fear death. I think there's much to be learned of Jormag's true nature in the coming months. Dissimilarity from one's self or one's own isn't a great foundation for distrust and paranoia, our world has been—and continues to be—a mess thanks to that manner of tribalistic thinking. It should be outdated and outmoded by this point.

    When it comes to Braham, we have already been told by the Spirits of the Wild that Braham is now part of a prophecy, and that either Braham must kill Jormag, or Jormag will kill him.

    Absolute obedience to figures of authority? I'm not a fan of that, either. I'd wager that an encounter between Braham and Asgeir is on the cards and that the old norn—whom, as is my understand, is a norn's norn—will have many things to say to Braham about such foolishness. The cub needs a good chewing out. Blind obedience is never a good trait, if it's a trait truly valued by those spirits then the norn are, quite frankly, better off without them. I'd consider that more than a mere foible, legends are nothing more than simple stories encapsulated in toxic masculinity anyway. Just as the charr must inevitably move with the times and leave behind their toxic elements, the norn must too leave behind legends.

    The Icebrood Saga, I feel, is a story about learning and growth. Both norn and charr alike will be irrevokably changed by it, all for the better if you ask me.

    Braham has also mimicked several of Asgeir's actions, both by getting a weapon infused with Jotun fire magic, as Asgeir had, and by getting the Spirits of the Wild to channel their energies through him to slay one of Jormag's champions(Drakkar) as Asgeir did Frostfang.

    The question is, must history repeat itself? Should it? Can there be a divergent path? Life has paths that twist and turn and one can find themself back at a familiar place and faced with troubles similar to those they used to know, but it's a sad day when one can't learn from the past and use those experiences to traverse these tribulations and forge a better path forward. One less stricken with strife. Indeed, just because history is shaping up to repeat itself, it doesn't mean it will play out the same.

    Essentially, the Spirits are teaching the Commander and Braham how not to fail in the inevitable fight against Jormag as Asgeir did. Getting the bow back, and Braham being able to channel the Spirit's powers, will be key in defeating Jormag, as well as the lessons learned here.

    You assume the true foe here is Jormag. Your fear and focus is misplaced. I'll say that much, because it's fun to say that! It's certainly true, though. It's easy to look at something and fear it because it's different despite it being as much a victim of this selfish past as anyone, without ever noticing the one behind the curtain, pulling the strings for the patsies to dance to.

  • Loesh.4697Loesh.4697 Member ✭✭✭

    Every time Hypnowulf comments on Jormag my confidence that we won't be putting an axe through the dragons head by the end of the Icebrood Saga is shaken because they make such a bad case for it.

  • @Hypnowulf.7403 said:

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    If we read "A Burden" [...]

    I've read a burden, yes. I... have a copy of it in a shared inventory slot. What of it??

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    Asgeir lost to Jormag because

    1. He allowed Jormag to make him doubt his actions
    2. His hunting party was killed, leaving him to fight Jormag alone, and thus be alone to be manipulated by Jormag
    3. He lacked the physical and mental strength to keep fighting
    4. Arguably, he made the mistake of fighting Jormag too head on, allowing all of the above to happe

    What a peculiar presumption, a perplexing perspective... It might be due to being a highly-sensitive person, an empath, but I've never really been given to calling compassion a sign of weakness. I do see that rather toxic ideology bandied around a lot, yes, but I don't prescribe to it myself. If one listens, one is weak; If one is kind, one is weak; If one dares deviate from the utter and immediate oblitteration of that which is unlike them, one is weak. I'm not a fan.

    Asgeir didn't "lose" as that wasn't the situation. Asgeir listened, Asgeir had a little think about it, and Asgeir learned. I wish that real people were as reflective as fictive characters. To my mind, it takes more bravery to show compassion and to dare to let an assumed foe live in the attempt to foster respect and choose the teething troubles of co-existence. A murder is a very final, absolute thing after all. The murder of another in a setting like this without commonplace surveillance and well-established law is something that one can walk away from and never really look back. It's much more of an effort to try and live with those who're dissimilar than merely eradicate them.

    Asgeir had the wherewithal to realise that his erstwhile foe was not so much a foe indeed, simply... different. One who had been met with hostility for little more than being a powerful creature that would've provided any norn with the might to slay them a legend. Such a chance is ambrosia to a nord so it means little whether diplomacy could be achieved. Asgeir saw that, in a way, Jormag was as much a victim of norn ambition as they were of the dragon's drive to survive. There was the possibility to talk it out, if only they'd listen. Would they? Probably not, but maybe they should?

    Jormag's been in a position where they've had to defend themself against anyone seeking a legend; not just themself either, but their branded charges, their children... I think that the address to Bangar—The Icebrood Saga trailer—was Jormag openly admitting their own vulnerability as much as anything else. What startled me was the meta-event in Drizzlewood involving the Claw of Jormag. He didn't exactly look like the most intimidating of fiends, did he? Cowering behind a column of ice in much the same way a bear might hide behind a tree from an ordery Elmer Fudd. I wouldn't call that a display of strength. If anything, it looked like the poor little baim was terrified. I mean, his mother was asleep and he didn't fancy his chances. Regardless, he was there to try to defend his sire, his parent. Awful business, that. I'm glad I didn't do it.

    It's not like the situation changed when the aforementioned pillar was destroyed, either; he just up and left, or tried to. Got shot out of the sky, of course, and ended up having what looked like a panic attack before keeling over. I'm really glad I didn't play any part in that. I passed that particular test of empathy. I'm not doing that to the poor bae.

    The point is is that Jormag is a persuasive, diplomatic dragon though they're hardly the strongest. It's going to be difficult for them to look out for their children, and even themself. Their best hope is that their capacity for persuasion leads to an amicable conclusion sans bloodshed. Of course, there are those who'd claim that Jormag needn't fear if they can control minds. They can't, of course, is the truth. I'd point out how Dragon's Watch routinely resisted their power, though knowing that isn't enough I'd also cite Tom Abernathy's own words on the matter. He has said many a time—until he's blue in the face—that Jormag's powers can't manifest that way. From what I gather, it's more like a convincing argument.

    If one is as powerful as Kralkatorrik one might not fear. If one has suffered as much as Kralkatorrik has, on emight indeed welcome death rather than fear it. If a dragon happened to eat a lich so that they can't really die in the first place, they needn't really fear death either! However, Jormag has much to live for coupled with no such invulnerability, so I'd posit they do fear death. I think there's much to be learned of Jormag's true nature in the coming months. Dissimilarity from one's self or one's own isn't a great foundation for distrust and paranoia, our world has been—and continues to be—a mess thanks to that manner of tribalistic thinking. It should be outdated and outmoded by this point.

    When it comes to Braham, we have already been told by the Spirits of the Wild that Braham is now part of a prophecy, and that either Braham must kill Jormag, or Jormag will kill him.

    Absolute obedience to figures of authority? I'm not a fan of that, either. I'd wager that an encounter between Braham and Asgeir is on the cards and that the old norn—whom, as is my understand, is a norn's norn—will have many things to say to Braham about such foolishness. The cub needs a good chewing out. Blind obedience is never a good trait, if it's a trait truly valued by those spirits then the norn are, quite frankly, better off without them. I'd consider that more than a mere foible, legends are nothing more than simple stories encapsulated in toxic masculinity anyway. Just as the charr must inevitably move with the times and leave behind their toxic elements, the norn must too leave behind legends.

    The Icebrood Saga, I feel, is a story about learning and growth. Both norn and charr alike will be irrevokably changed by it, all for the better if you ask me.

    Braham has also mimicked several of Asgeir's actions, both by getting a weapon infused with Jotun fire magic, as Asgeir had, and by getting the Spirits of the Wild to channel their energies through him to slay one of Jormag's champions(Drakkar) as Asgeir did Frostfang.

    The question is, must history repeat itself? Should it? Can there be a divergent path? Life has paths that twist and turn and one can find themself back at a familiar place and faced with troubles similar to those they used to know, but it's a sad day when one can't learn from the past and use those experiences to traverse these tribulations and forge a better path forward. One less stricken with strife. Indeed, just because history is shaping up to repeat itself, it doesn't mean it will play out the same.

    Essentially, the Spirits are teaching the Commander and Braham how not to fail in the inevitable fight against Jormag as Asgeir did. Getting the bow back, and Braham being able to channel the Spirit's powers, will be key in defeating Jormag, as well as the lessons learned here.

    You assume the true foe here is Jormag. Your fear and focus is misplaced. I'll say that much, because it's fun to say that! It's certainly true, though. It's easy to look at something and fear it because it's different despite it being as much a victim of this selfish past as anyone, without ever noticing the one behind the curtain, pulling the strings for the patsies to dance to.

    Wow. This was actually deep. Still don't understand why they decided that turning our friends against us or compelling kodan to die makes them seem diplomatic. They were awake realitvly unchallenged for 150 years. I'll admit they seem to be the most intelligent of the 5 dragons but the sins are still great. They caused a 4 year blizzard when they awoke. They killed countless. They corrupted countless. They also lied by agreeing to let the Norm walk free and then attack them as they fled. That is not some kind of good creature protecting itself. That's something that decided to go back on their word. I still say they have an agenda and they need an army to take care of it.

    And torturing and corrupting the spirts of the wild have made them an enemy of the Norn. Generations of loss will not be forgotten overnight. I think we are seeing fear from the them of their own mortality. Their brothers are dead. Three of the most powerful entities Tyria had ever seen were killed. They were weakened and hurt by Balthazar. This is the actions of a scared child hiding behind the mob they gathered to fight for them.

    We will defeat them. Braham will defeat them of that I am sure. How? No idea.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Hypnowulf.7403 said:

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    If we read "A Burden" [...]

    I've read a burden, yes. I... have a copy of it in a shared inventory slot. What of it??

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    Asgeir lost to Jormag because

    1. He allowed Jormag to make him doubt his actions
    2. His hunting party was killed, leaving him to fight Jormag alone, and thus be alone to be manipulated by Jormag
    3. He lacked the physical and mental strength to keep fighting
    4. Arguably, he made the mistake of fighting Jormag too head on, allowing all of the above to happe

    What a peculiar presumption, a perplexing perspective... It might be due to being a highly-sensitive person, an empath, but I've never really been given to calling compassion a sign of weakness. I do see that rather toxic ideology bandied around a lot, yes, but I don't prescribe to it myself. If one listens, one is weak; If one is kind, one is weak; If one dares deviate from the utter and immediate oblitteration of that which is unlike them, one is weak. I'm not a fan.

    Asgeir didn't "lose" as that wasn't the situation. Asgeir listened, Asgeir had a little think about it, and Asgeir learned. I wish that real people were as reflective as fictive characters. To my mind, it takes more bravery to show compassion and to dare to let an assumed foe live in the attempt to foster respect and choose the teething troubles of co-existence. A murder is a very final, absolute thing after all. The murder of another in a setting like this without commonplace surveillance and well-established law is something that one can walk away from and never really look back. It's much more of an effort to try and live with those who're dissimilar than merely eradicate them.

    Asgeir had the wherewithal to realise that his erstwhile foe was not so much a foe indeed, simply... different. One who had been met with hostility for little more than being a powerful creature that would've provided any norn with the might to slay them a legend. Such a chance is ambrosia to a nord so it means little whether diplomacy could be achieved. Asgeir saw that, in a way, Jormag was as much a victim of norn ambition as they were of the dragon's drive to survive. There was the possibility to talk it out, if only they'd listen. Would they? Probably not, but maybe they should?

    Jormag's been in a position where they've had to defend themself against anyone seeking a legend; not just themself either, but their branded charges, their children... I think that the address to Bangar—The Icebrood Saga trailer—was Jormag openly admitting their own vulnerability as much as anything else. What startled me was the meta-event in Drizzlewood involving the Claw of Jormag. He didn't exactly look like the most intimidating of fiends, did he? Cowering behind a column of ice in much the same way a bear might hide behind a tree from an ordery Elmer Fudd. I wouldn't call that a display of strength. If anything, it looked like the poor little baim was terrified. I mean, his mother was asleep and he didn't fancy his chances. Regardless, he was there to try to defend his sire, his parent. Awful business, that. I'm glad I didn't do it.

    It's not like the situation changed when the aforementioned pillar was destroyed, either; he just up and left, or tried to. Got shot out of the sky, of course, and ended up having what looked like a panic attack before keeling over. I'm really glad I didn't play any part in that. I passed that particular test of empathy. I'm not doing that to the poor bae.

    The point is is that Jormag is a persuasive, diplomatic dragon though they're hardly the strongest. It's going to be difficult for them to look out for their children, and even themself. Their best hope is that their capacity for persuasion leads to an amicable conclusion sans bloodshed. Of course, there are those who'd claim that Jormag needn't fear if they can control minds. They can't, of course, is the truth. I'd point out how Dragon's Watch routinely resisted their power, though knowing that isn't enough I'd also cite Tom Abernathy's own words on the matter. He has said many a time—until he's blue in the face—that Jormag's powers can't manifest that way. From what I gather, it's more like a convincing argument.

    If one is as powerful as Kralkatorrik one might not fear. If one has suffered as much as Kralkatorrik has, on emight indeed welcome death rather than fear it. If a dragon happened to eat a lich so that they can't really die in the first place, they needn't really fear death either! However, Jormag has much to live for coupled with no such invulnerability, so I'd posit they do fear death. I think there's much to be learned of Jormag's true nature in the coming months. Dissimilarity from one's self or one's own isn't a great foundation for distrust and paranoia, our world has been—and continues to be—a mess thanks to that manner of tribalistic thinking. It should be outdated and outmoded by this point.

    When it comes to Braham, we have already been told by the Spirits of the Wild that Braham is now part of a prophecy, and that either Braham must kill Jormag, or Jormag will kill him.

    Absolute obedience to figures of authority? I'm not a fan of that, either. I'd wager that an encounter between Braham and Asgeir is on the cards and that the old norn—whom, as is my understand, is a norn's norn—will have many things to say to Braham about such foolishness. The cub needs a good chewing out. Blind obedience is never a good trait, if it's a trait truly valued by those spirits then the norn are, quite frankly, better off without them. I'd consider that more than a mere foible, legends are nothing more than simple stories encapsulated in toxic masculinity anyway. Just as the charr must inevitably move with the times and leave behind their toxic elements, the norn must too leave behind legends.

    The Icebrood Saga, I feel, is a story about learning and growth. Both norn and charr alike will be irrevokably changed by it, all for the better if you ask me.

    Braham has also mimicked several of Asgeir's actions, both by getting a weapon infused with Jotun fire magic, as Asgeir had, and by getting the Spirits of the Wild to channel their energies through him to slay one of Jormag's champions(Drakkar) as Asgeir did Frostfang.

    The question is, must history repeat itself? Should it? Can there be a divergent path? Life has paths that twist and turn and one can find themself back at a familiar place and faced with troubles similar to those they used to know, but it's a sad day when one can't learn from the past and use those experiences to traverse these tribulations and forge a better path forward. One less stricken with strife. Indeed, just because history is shaping up to repeat itself, it doesn't mean it will play out the same.

    Essentially, the Spirits are teaching the Commander and Braham how not to fail in the inevitable fight against Jormag as Asgeir did. Getting the bow back, and Braham being able to channel the Spirit's powers, will be key in defeating Jormag, as well as the lessons learned here.

    You assume the true foe here is Jormag. Your fear and focus is misplaced. I'll say that much, because it's fun to say that! It's certainly true, though. It's easy to look at something and fear it because it's different despite it being as much a victim of this selfish past as anyone, without ever noticing the one behind the curtain, pulling the strings for the patsies to dance to.

    "Toxic masculinity" ? Did you REALLY just describe the norn, a race of "It doesn't matter who you are, or where you come from. If you're strong then you can do it!" With that phrase? Not only did you make me sick to think of the norn giving up what little of their cool factor remains from gw1, not only did you make me discredit your entire point and anything you think in general based on that. But you have made me question on how you function, because you surely would not be welcome in my presence as such disturbing demonization against nature is appalling.

    Please seek help.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 7, 2020

    @Hypnowulf.7403 said:
    snip

    I'm sorry but what?

    • Asgeir not killing Jormag had nothing to do with compassion. He never liked, or cared about, Jormag, or Jormag's life.
    • Jormag wasn't simply defending itself, it attacked first, and has attacked first since then. Its the other races who are defending themselves.
    • The Claws of Jormag have attacked people first many times.
    • The Elder Dragons don't fear death in the first place. Kralk states this very clear. So fear for its life isn't a motivation for Jormag.
    • Jormag isn't diplomatic. A diplomat wouldn't' constantly be manipulating people to wander out into the wastes to die, or using people's dead relative's voices against them.
    • The Spirit's of the Wild aren't the ones who made the prophecy. You aren't being blindly obedient by following it. Guild Wars is a realm of magic, and fates. That's just how things work.
    • History repeating itself would be Braham giving up the fight as Asgeir did, letting a genocidal dragon continue its rampage. changing history would be stopping an entity of such evil.
    • Jormag is the enemy though. Just look at all the horrible stuff its done in Icebrood Saga despite no one being actively going after it beforehand.
  • @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Stephen.6312 said:
    Look, I think that the business of Braham and Jormag needs to be put on hold. We've got the DSD to contend with and, in my opinion, there are very few armies capable of withstanding an assault from aquatic spellcasters. Jormag has managed to amass a diverse range of fighters, primarily norn and charr, arguably the most competent warriors of the Pact.

    I don't see why the DSD's armies would be any more or less competent/powerful then any of the other dragon's armies. Even if it was, I don't see why we would make the proverbial deal with the devil to try to stop it instead of doing what we have done with any of the other dragon's armies, which is make new allies, and develop new technology, and tactics, to defeat it. We have an entire continent of possible new allies in Cantha.

    All of this makes me contemplate the ultimate fate of Aesgir. I believe that, with time, Aesgir came to realize that Jormag really does intend to preserve the norn race, not by corrupting them either. Sure, many norn have been corrupted, but not all of them. Furthermore, Aesgir concluded that some of his own people must be conscripted in order to save all of his people. What do I think happened to Aesgir? He became the Fraenir, willingly sacrificing himself to save his people.

    If anything, "A Burden" suggests the opposite. The last lines are even

    "I'm doing the right thing. I'm giving the norn a future. Why does it feel as though I gave up? As though I could've won, if only I'd pushed through the pain and exhaustion?
    The voice spoke true. I'll carry this burden for as long as I live. I only hope whoever takes it up when I'm gone can handle the weight of it. "

    Showing Asgeir believed he did the wrong thing by listening to Jormag.

    Besides, what has Jormag done to suggest its being honest?

    • It lied to Asgier about leaving the Norn alone if they went south
    • It manipulated Bangar into starting a massively devastating civil war among the Charr, which also led to the genocide of the Drizzlewood communities
    • It used its "Voice" to manipulate the soldiers of Jora's Keep into killing each other
    • It also used its "Voice" to manipulate the Kodan, and Vigil Relief soldiers, into walking out into the snow and ice to lay down and die
    • Its mentally attacked Marjory, by using her dead sisters voice
    • Its lied/misled Bangar, its own pawn, into thinking it would make him its champion, when, in reality, it made him a slave in the form of its new "Voice"
    • Its tired multiple times to break down, and turn our allies against us, be it Braham, Rytlock, or Crecia
    • It continues to feed off of the power of the Spirits of the Wild, even though they are clearly against it

    Jormag's claims of wanting to help are no different then the claims made by Zhaitan's minions that Zhaitan simply wants to help everyone avoid the pain of death and loss.... by forcibly making everyone undead Risen. And Jormag has done thing but use similar tactics. Remember, as it itself has said "ice forties, ice protects", its idea of "helping" is almost certainly something devastating like freezing the whole world into ice to stop the cycle or something ridiculous like that. And even Aurene calls out Jormag's actions in the latest "Confer with Bangar" achievement step.

    Also, the Fraenir is stated to be a Son of Svanir that was chosen by Jormag for the position, so its not Asgeir.

    Some one sees that like I did Norman is no more better then the other dragons.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Telwyn.1630 said:
    Some one sees that like I did Norman is no more better then the other dragons.

    I've never really understood the need to try to make Bubbles the unstoppable doom dragon of doom. If it was that powerful we surely would have seen something of it by now.

    Its going to pose its own challenges sure, but nothing worse then any of the other dragons.

  • Bast.7253Bast.7253 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Telwyn.1630 said:
    Some one sees that like I did Norman is no more better then the other dragons.

    I've never really understood the need to try to make Bubbles the unstoppable doom dragon of doom. If it was that powerful we surely would have seen something of it by now.

    Its going to pose its own challenges sure, but nothing worse then any of the other dragons.

    Unless it's intentionally spent all this time avoiding focus to collect as much magic and forces as possible? If you become stronger when the others die it's kind of like that Halloween event right? Just find a nice little cubby somewhere and hide until the rest have been eliminated! That is one thing we have to consider though. Originally it posed no more threat, but with the death of others they become increasingly more of a threat. And given we don't know the location it's possible it could have absorbed the most of each elder dragon so far. Kralk, right in the ocean. Balthazar, Zhaitan right in the ocean, and Mordremoth right by the ocean. It's presumed he's much farther away but given that Jormag was able to obtain magic from Kralk, Mordremoth, and Zhaitan's death, it's reasonable to assume that Steve could have too. And potentially more as we really don't know where he is. That being said I'd imagine Primordus would have gotten a substantial power boost as well given he was last in the Fire Island chain which is really only furthest away from Kralk. I can't remember why Primordus was in that area but if he relocated due to the death of Zhaitan and Mordremoth it's reasonable to assume that Steve did as well. Jormag's really the only one that didn't move much.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 11, 2020

    @Bast.7253 said:
    Unless it's intentionally spent all this time avoiding focus to collect as much magic and forces as possible? If you become stronger when the others die it's kind of like that Halloween event right? Just find a nice little cubby somewhere and hide until the rest have been eliminated! That is one thing we have to consider though. Originally it posed no more threat, but with the death of others they become increasingly more of a threat. And given we don't know the location it's possible it could have absorbed the most of each elder dragon so far. Kralk, right in the ocean. Balthazar, Zhaitan right in the ocean, and Mordremoth right by the ocean. It's presumed he's much farther away but given that Jormag was able to obtain magic from Kralk, Mordremoth, and Zhaitan's death, it's reasonable to assume that Steve could have too. And potentially more as we really don't know where he is. That being said I'd imagine Primordus would have gotten a substantial power boost as well given he was last in the Fire Island chain which is really only furthest away from Kralk. I can't remember why Primordus was in that area but if he relocated due to the death of Zhaitan and Mordremoth it's reasonable to assume that Steve did as well. Jormag's really the only one that didn't move much.

    Well, Jormag was much closer to the deaths of Zhaitan and Mordremoth then Bubbles was, and its specifically made a plot point in S3 that its so far away that it absorbed little of either's power after they died(at least compared to Primordus). And while we don't know Bubbles exact location, it seems to be far closer to Cantha then Tyria, so I would presume the same would be trube of Balthazar and Kralkatorrik's deaths also. Yes Bubbles would have gotten power from it, but seemingly only the minority.

    Primordus moved to the Ring of Fire because there is a leyline going from there to where Mordremoth died in Dragon's stand. It moved there to feed off of the released power. IIRC, That_Shaman found that Anet even modeled a leyline tunnel in Draconis Mons going off into the direction of Dragon's Stand. As it stands, Primordus is the one most likely to be the super elder dragon of doom, not Bubbles.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Bast.7253 said:
    Unless it's intentionally spent all this time avoiding focus to collect as much magic and forces as possible? If you become stronger when the others die it's kind of like that Halloween event right? Just find a nice little cubby somewhere and hide until the rest have been eliminated! That is one thing we have to consider though. Originally it posed no more threat, but with the death of others they become increasingly more of a threat. And given we don't know the location it's possible it could have absorbed the most of each elder dragon so far. Kralk, right in the ocean. Balthazar, Zhaitan right in the ocean, and Mordremoth right by the ocean. It's presumed he's much farther away but given that Jormag was able to obtain magic from Kralk, Mordremoth, and Zhaitan's death, it's reasonable to assume that Steve could have too. And potentially more as we really don't know where he is. That being said I'd imagine Primordus would have gotten a substantial power boost as well given he was last in the Fire Island chain which is really only furthest away from Kralk. I can't remember why Primordus was in that area but if he relocated due to the death of Zhaitan and Mordremoth it's reasonable to assume that Steve did as well. Jormag's really the only one that didn't move much.

    Well, Jormag was much closer to the deaths of Zhaitan and Mordremoth then Bubbles was, and its specifically made a plot point in S3 that its so far away that it absorbed little of either's power after they died(at least compared to Primordus). And while we don't know Bubbles exact location, it seems to be far closer to Cantha then Tyria, so I would presume the same would be trube of Balthazar and Kralkatorrik's deaths also. Yes Bubbles would have gotten power from it, but seemingly only the minority.

    Primordus moved to the Ring of Fire because there is a leyline going from there to where Mordremoth died in Dragon's stand. It moved there to feed off of the released power. IIRC, That_Shaman found that Anet even modeled a leyline tunnel in Draconis Mons going off into the direction of Dragon's Stand. As it stands, Primordus is the one most likely to be the super elder dragon of doom, not Bubbles.

    If Aurene is being called the dragon of light, then it wouldn’t be too much of a stretch for Primordus to absorb the other magics of the other dragons and be called the dragon of darkness.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    If Aurene is being called the dragon of light, then it wouldn’t be too much of a stretch for Primordus to absorb the other magics of the other dragons and be called the dragon of darkness.

    Technically, Aurene is the Prismatic Dragon.
    She absorbs magic, splits it like a prism splits light, and releases it.
    Also, prisms are specific kinds of crystals, so its fits Aurene, who still is a crystal dragon, better than light.

    If Aurene actually was a dragon of Light, all of the other Elder Dragons would be dark dragons,
    as they merely absorb magic like dark surfaces absorb most light.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    If Aurene is being called the dragon of light, then it wouldn’t be too much of a stretch for Primordus to absorb the other magics of the other dragons and be called the dragon of darkness.

    Technically, Aurene is the Prismatic Dragon.
    She absorbs magic, splits it like a prism splits light, and releases it.
    Also, prisms are specific kinds of crystals, so its fits Aurene, who still is a crystal dragon, better than light.

    If Aurene actually was a dragon of Light, all of the other Elder Dragons would be dark dragons,
    as they merely absorb magic like dark surfaces absorb most light.

    I believe she is described as both, the light and primastic. According to the living world magazine as well as other sources.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    If Aurene is being called the dragon of light, then it wouldn’t be too much of a stretch for Primordus to absorb the other magics of the other dragons and be called the dragon of darkness.

    Technically, Aurene is the Prismatic Dragon.
    She absorbs magic, splits it like a prism splits light, and releases it.
    Also, prisms are specific kinds of crystals, so its fits Aurene, who still is a crystal dragon, better than light.

    If Aurene actually was a dragon of Light, all of the other Elder Dragons would be dark dragons,
    as they merely absorb magic like dark surfaces absorb most light.

    I believe she is described as both, the light and primastic. According to the living world magazine as well as other sources.

    My guess is that the only reason she's only called the light dragon is because Arenanet wanted a less "complicated" term for non-Asuran races to use.