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Why is this allowed

Lighter.5631Lighter.5631 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited October 7, 2020 in PVP

what's balance, i think it does not exist in this game.

killshot can barely do 7k on tier 3 with for great jutice and on my mark combined.

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Comments

  • Paradoxoglanis.1904Paradoxoglanis.1904 Member ✭✭✭✭

    You are supposed to keep track of every ability and cd the engi uses and predict exactly when they are going to use their burst and preemptively dodge it. If you cant do this every fight you are just bad. /s

  • bkv.2371bkv.2371 Member ✭✭

    the counterplay to holo is the same as it has been since its release: just dodge everything

  • Bast.7253Bast.7253 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:
    You are supposed to keep track of every ability and cd the engi uses and predict exactly when they are going to use their burst and preemptively dodge it. If you cant do this every fight you are just bad. /s

    And the 10 times they reset during the same fight. 🤪

  • mes.4607mes.4607 Member ✭✭✭✭

    No idea how they let this slide for months. Along with Lich auto attack

    How the heck do I get 5 stars?
  • Blocki.4931Blocki.4931 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mes.4607 said:
    No idea how they let this slide for months. Along with Lich auto attack

    They have said that they are perfectly fine with Lich auto attack.

    I rather choose death.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Blocki.4931 said:

    @mes.4607 said:
    No idea how they let this slide for months. Along with Lich auto attack

    They have said that they are perfectly fine with Lich auto attack.

    Abuse it while you can, it wont be fine forever.

  • mes.4607mes.4607 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Blocki.4931 said:

    @mes.4607 said:
    No idea how they let this slide for months. Along with Lich auto attack

    They have said that they are perfectly fine with Lich auto attack.

    They're out of their minds

    How the heck do I get 5 stars?
  • Blocki.4931Blocki.4931 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mes.4607 said:

    @Blocki.4931 said:

    @mes.4607 said:
    No idea how they let this slide for months. Along with Lich auto attack

    They have said that they are perfectly fine with Lich auto attack.

    They're out of their minds

    Doesn't mean they're not ever going to nerf it. Just the fact it is strong is fine.

    I rather choose death.

  • dronte.3416dronte.3416 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 8, 2020

    @Lighter.5631 said:

    what's balance, i think it does not exist in this game.

    killshot can barely do 7k on tier 3 with for great jutice and on my mark combined.

    Add Explosive Entrance and you get 10k+ on one skill. Then the standard holo burst. Fun

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Meteor.3720 said:
    Anet said a long time ago that no class should be able to generate 25 might stacks by itself...

    I'm pretty sure it's still easily doable with most professions. Being able to maintain 25 might stacks is harder thought.

  • Bast.7253Bast.7253 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Meteor.3720 said:
    Anet said a long time ago that no class should be able to generate 25 might stacks by itself...

    I'm pretty sure it's still easily doable with most professions. Being able to maintain 25 might stacks is harder thought.

    The only ones that come to mind are engineer, rev, and warrior. None of the others really get that high. Chrono maybe if you’re running a really classy build. Ele just converts theirs to burns and small explosions. Tempest maybe but it takes work and isn’t very effective in matches. Scourge if conveying burn stacks I guess?

  • Zeesh.7286Zeesh.7286 Member ✭✭✭

    @mes.4607 said:
    No idea how they let this slide for months. Along with Lich auto attack

    You can literally reflect lich autos with magnetic aura or block them with any projectile block as they are projectiles or just run behind any thin kitten wall and LOS them. Lich has so much counter play. On the other hand Grenades actually explode in a small aoe and there's multiple of them so you can even get hit behind some walls and pillars while kiting. Oh and and Lich has a CD of 150 secs and it is an ELITE. Meanwhile Holo has small as kitten CD's on all their burst skills and explosive entrance which refreshes on each dodge for an additional 2.5k a hit. This comparison is totally unfair. Let's stick to the Holo's for now pls?

    And it isn't even grenade barrage that's at fault. It's forge mode with tons of modifiers and the free stacks of might which ramp up the damage of grenades to insane level. and the explosives traitline. In fact explosives traitline on scrapper means they can hit just as hard right now. Add in explosive entrance to grenades and you have a burst which can knock out 50% of the HP on an light armor class not running toughness. Oh and it's all on a super small CD so congratulations. Once you're done healing back (because poison grenade also kitten your healing effectiveness ) you are ready to get slammed with holo forge skills which also hit with explosive entrance damage added on top because the holo has permanent vigor too along with the insane might stacks and speed and superspeed (thank god they nerfed this somewhat).

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lighter.5631 said:

    what's balance, i think it does not exist in this game.

    killshot can barely do 7k on tier 3 with for great jutice and on my mark combined.

    Standing there eating someone's hits instead of mitigating, then posting a screenshot on the forums as nerf-bait is the new meta I guess.

    "We recognize that some players are not able to complete all content." Gaile Gray 01.10.19

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @Lighter.5631 said:

    what's balance, i think it does not exist in this game.

    killshot can barely do 7k on tier 3 with for great jutice and on my mark combined.

    Standing there eating someone's hits instead of mitigating, then posting a screenshot on the forums as nerf-bait is the new meta I guess.

    Mind you...many Holos just ElixirS (stealth )+ barrage you so.......

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Bast.7253 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    I'm pretty sure it's still easily doable with most professions. Being able to maintain 25 might stacks is harder thought.

    The only ones that come to mind are engineer, rev, and warrior. None of the others really get that high. Chrono maybe if you’re running a really classy build. Ele just converts theirs to burns and small explosions. Tempest maybe but it takes work and isn’t very effective in matches. Scourge if conveying burn stacks I guess?

    The only one with which I'm not sure to be able to reach 25 might stack alone is the guardian. Aristocracy/strength runes + sigil of battle or/and courage can help a lot in building might.
    The necromancer can reach 25 might stacks just by using BiP twice in a row.
    The elementalist can still blast himself in fire to 25 might stack pretty easily.
    The ranger can get there with axe coupled with aristocracy and the 2 sigils.
    Chrono with GS traited can reach it.
    And the thief can always luck it out and steal 25 might stacks at once (not that there aren't any other way to do it).

    None of those are optimal but reaching 25 might stack isn't out of reach for any of these professions.

  • Lighter.5631Lighter.5631 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 8, 2020

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @Lighter.5631 said:

    what's balance, i think it does not exist in this game.

    killshot can barely do 7k on tier 3 with for great jutice and on my mark combined.

    Standing there eating someone's hits instead of mitigating, then posting a screenshot on the forums as nerf-bait is the new meta I guess.

    lol this screenshot happened in a plat 2 game where me as rev having a healthy amount of HP chasing a 1-2k HP holo that just casted GB on his feet while running away and instantly taking out 9k+ of my HP out. fun.

  • bethekey.8314bethekey.8314 Member ✭✭✭

    @Meteor.3720 said:
    Anet said a long time ago that no class should be able to generate 25 might stacks by itself...
    Guess the fact that holo can passively stack 22-25 stacks easily slipped passed them.

    But flashbang blind is 2secs so it's all good, we have balance.

    Check my clip, warrior stacks 22 might too. Nerf warrior?

    In order to ensure our forums are pleasant and safe for all forum members, we expect all contributors to be respectful of one another. Posts that are rude towards or attack another member, single out a player for ridicule, or that accuse someone of inappropriate behavior will be removed.

  • @bethekey.8314 said:

    Some hyperbole going on in this thread. If you're against high nade burst, you're against this too. Nerf warrior @Lighter.5631 ?

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    I think you misunderstand, its not multiple hits. Its 1 attack. So yes, he stood "still" and took 1 attack to lose 9100 health.

    Actually, it is multiple hits, but maybe you mean 1 button press? Also, saying it's 1 thing alone is grossly misrepresenting what it takes to get high nade barrage damage.

    False equivalent. Nade Barrage is a single skill with a giant AoE that can be used at literally any time. You getting CC bursted by a Berserker running all damage traitlines with absolutely zero defense capabilities is because you didn't stunbreak.

    Decapitate does a lot of damage, but it was still less than the Nade Barrage the OP listed and it's single target, has less range, only accessible during Berserk mode, and has a pretty generous windup animation.

    Also, pointing out a single high damage skill on a nonviable build to defend an even higher damage, all around better skill on arguably the strongest build at the moment isn't exactly a good look.

  • bethekey.8314bethekey.8314 Member ✭✭✭

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:
    False equivalent. Nade Barrage is a single skill with a giant AoE that can be used at literally any time. You getting CC bursted by a Berserker running all damage traitlines with absolutely zero defense capabilities is because you didn't stunbreak.

    Decapitate does a lot of damage, but it was still less than the Nade Barrage the OP listed and it's single target, has less range, only accessible during Berserk mode, and has a pretty generous windup animation.

    Also, pointing out a single high damage skill on a nonviable build to defend an even higher damage, all around better skill on arguably the strongest build at the moment isn't exactly a good look.

    I think it's a fair comparison. Obviously, different classes are different. But, I think this is a discussion about overwhelming, fast burst damage that you either dodge or die to.

    Remember, decapitate doesn't need to be aimed and the whirl is AOE too. High holo grenade damage requires traits as well. The "didn't stunbreak" argument is analogous to the satirical "just dodge" argument made by another poster. I'm all for better animations.

    What makes the build nonviable? I died to it. This game is for fun anyway; are you suggesting it's competitive?

    To be clear, I believe holo should be nerfed--ideally it's might generation / passive damage increase with heat.

    In order to ensure our forums are pleasant and safe for all forum members, we expect all contributors to be respectful of one another. Posts that are rude towards or attack another member, single out a player for ridicule, or that accuse someone of inappropriate behavior will be removed.

  • @Lighter.5631 said:

    @bethekey.8314 said:

    Some hyperbole going on in this thread. If you're against high nade burst, you're against this too. Nerf warrior @Lighter.5631 ?

    For those that don't want to watch the clip:

    • From full health to 0, I died in ~1 second.
    • The hits were for 8450, 3414, 3639, and 3478 for a total of 18981.

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    I think you misunderstand, its not multiple hits. Its 1 attack. So yes, he stood "still" and took 1 attack to lose 9100 health.

    Actually, it is multiple hits, but maybe you mean 1 button press? Also, saying it's 1 thing alone is grossly misrepresenting what it takes to get high nade barrage damage.

    except this warrior build will get farmed all day with less then 10% uptime in any plat game, while holo can possibly 1v2 with the same build in the screenshot.

    Holo destroys this build too. This engi just got caught with no stun break. Flashbang alone is the most frustrating thing to deal with as a warrior fighting holo.

  • bethekey.8314bethekey.8314 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 8, 2020

    @Lighter.5631 said:
    except this warrior build will get farmed all day with less then 10% uptime in any plat game, while holo can possibly 1v2 with the same build in the screenshot.

    I don't follow how 1 class needing a nerf negates another class needing a nerf, based on your "omg 9k dmg nerf" argument.

    Nerf holo and this warrior damage, if you want to be consistent :)

    Edit: Also, your screenshot doesn't show anything about build.

    In order to ensure our forums are pleasant and safe for all forum members, we expect all contributors to be respectful of one another. Posts that are rude towards or attack another member, single out a player for ridicule, or that accuse someone of inappropriate behavior will be removed.

  • bethekey.8314bethekey.8314 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 8, 2020

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:
    Holo destroys this build too.

    Irrelevant.

    This engi just got caught with no stun break.

    And OP got caught without a dodge. You're in favor of 1 second deaths?

    Flashbang alone is the most frustrating thing to deal with as a warrior fighting holo.

    I thought this was a burst damage thread?

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  • @bethekey.8314 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:
    False equivalent. Nade Barrage is a single skill with a giant AoE that can be used at literally any time. You getting CC bursted by a Berserker running all damage traitlines with absolutely zero defense capabilities is because you didn't stunbreak.

    Decapitate does a lot of damage, but it was still less than the Nade Barrage the OP listed and it's single target, has less range, only accessible during Berserk mode, and has a pretty generous windup animation.

    Also, pointing out a single high damage skill on a nonviable build to defend an even higher damage, all around better skill on arguably the strongest build at the moment isn't exactly a good look.

    I think it's a fair comparison. Obviously, different classes are different. But, I think this is a discussion about overwhelming, fast burst damage that you either dodge or die to.

    Remember, decapitate doesn't need to be aimed and the whirl is AOE too. High holo grenade damage requires traits as well. The "didn't stunbreak" argument is analogous to the satirical "just dodge" argument made by another poster. I'm all for better animations.

    What makes the build nonviable? I died to it. This game is for fun anyway; are you suggesting it's competitive?

    To be clear, I believe holo should be nerfed--ideally it's might generation / passive damage increase with heat.

    Fast and overwhelming damage is usually balanced by cast times, animations, or range. The cone for Decapitate is 300 in front of the Warrior with a massive swing animation, Nade Barrage is a 900 range massive AoE with almost no tell, you can't be serious.

    The stunbreak argument isn't the same as just dodge. You bring stunbreaks for CC. If you don't have them, it's because your build is a problem you need to fix.

    Are we really going to have to explain why zerk isn't viable? You died to it because you didn't have a stun break. You dying because your build was bad doesn't mean the Warrior build was viable. Stop.

  • Lighter.5631Lighter.5631 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @bethekey.8314 said:

    @Lighter.5631 said:
    except this warrior build will get farmed all day with less then 10% uptime in any plat game, while holo can possibly 1v2 with the same build in the screenshot.

    I don't follow how 1 class needing a nerf negates another class needing a nerf, based on your "omg 9k dmg nerf" argument.

    Nerf holo and this warrior damage, if you want to be consistent :)

    Edit: Also, your screenshot doesn't show anything about build.

    What you are not following, the warrior does not need nerf, because he won't live for more then 2 mins in a 15 mins match.
    doing damage in a full on glass non-viable build isn't the reason to nerf anything at all.
    it literally can be applied to any class till nobody does any damage at all. i guess you just hate pvp.

  • felix.2386felix.2386 Member ✭✭✭

    @bethekey.8314 said:

    I thought this was a burst damage thread?

    you aren't really having any clear view of the meta holo build if you really think this is only a burst damage thread.
    unsurprised.

    warrior has been unplayable in pvp
    for 6 months till now

    good job balance team

  • bethekey.8314bethekey.8314 Member ✭✭✭

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:
    Fast and overwhelming damage is usually balanced by cast times, animations, or range. The cone for Decapitate is 300 in front of the Warrior with a massive swing animation, Nade Barrage is a 900 range massive AoE with almost no tell, you can't be serious.

    @bethekey.8314 said:
    Remember, decapitate doesn't need to be aimed and the whirl is AOE too. High holo grenade damage requires traits as well. The "didn't stunbreak" argument is analogous to the satirical "just dodge" argument made by another poster. I'm all for better animations.

    See my previous response.

    The stunbreak argument isn't the same as just dodge. You bring stunbreaks for CC. If you don't have them, it's because your build is a problem you need to fix.

    Let's walk through this together ok :) Pretend I have my stunbreak off cooldown (elixir U here) and I use it to get out of the stun in the clip. The huge burst damage is incoming. What must I do? Dodge maybe?

    Are we really going to have to explain why zerk isn't viable? You died to it because you didn't have a stun break. You dying because your build was bad doesn't mean the Warrior build was viable. Stop.

    I've been playing builds deemed "nonviable" by the community the entire 8 or so years Guild Wars 2 has existed, and done very well with them. Please, define "viable" for me.

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  • bethekey.8314bethekey.8314 Member ✭✭✭

    @felix.2386 said:

    @bethekey.8314 said:

    I thought this was a burst damage thread?

    you aren't really having any clear view of the meta holo build if you really think this is only a burst damage thread.
    unsurprised.

    Please point to the spot in the original post that isn't about burst damage. I'll wait.

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  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    is this about the heal trait thing? cuz that thing is obviously dumb, but the actual grenade barrage toolbelt skill is fine. might need a more obvious animation but its on a 25 sec cd and easily dodge able from range. instead of messing with the animation they could delay the nades by a bit so all 6 nades hit over a half sec period. this is another case of nerfing core to balance elites, so backwards.

    Te lazla otstara.

  • Widmo.3186Widmo.3186 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @bethekey.8314 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:
    Holo destroys this build too.

    Irrelevant.

    This engi just got caught with no stun break.

    And OP got caught without a dodge. You're in favor of 1 second deaths?

    Flashbang alone is the most frustrating thing to deal with as a warrior fighting holo.

    I thought this was a burst damage thread?

    You really want to compare zerker build with holo? Lmao.
    One must go full-in in dmg to provide such damage, almost no defenses, can be just kited and waited through berserk duration. Also easily stunnable. And so on and so on.
    Meanwhile the other one is S tier in almost everything, very mobile, good teamfights, stuns, spikes, sustain etc.

    You got 'oneshoted' by zerker not because he played well, but because you allowed him to do it. Its like Id spam HS on teef to get those 4k+ hits and then be surprised cuz I was locked in animation and couldnt dodge stun/nades/whatever. Wow, broken game!

    But thats overall zerker vs holo. Speaking of nades, zerker needs to use multiple abilities and wait for oppurtunity to land 'oneshot'. Meanwhile nades are just 1 button, miracle happens, hardly dodgeable.

    Dont mind me, I just randomly spam 35 skill-buttons
    25.02.2020 edit - Nevermind, now I spam only 29 skill-buttons

  • bethekey.8314bethekey.8314 Member ✭✭✭

    @felix.2386 said:
    while grenade barrage damage apply right after 1/2 second cast time, which means it took the warrior 4 seconds+ to deal the damage in the video while grenade barrage took 0.5 second to deal 9k+

    Rewatch the video. 18k+ damage in ~1 second. I couldn't dodge the headbutt because of the aftercast from Hammer 3 / precasted Headbutt from the Warrior. Not sure what you mean regarding the 2 second reaction time. You mean while I was stunned?

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  • Zeesh.7286Zeesh.7286 Member ✭✭✭

    @bethekey.8314 said:

    Some hyperbole going on in this thread. If you're against high nade burst, you're against this too. Nerf warrior @Lighter.5631 ?

    For those that don't want to watch the clip:

    • From full health to 0, I died in ~1 second.
    • The hits were for 8450, 3414, 3639, and 3478 for a total of 18981.

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    I think you misunderstand, its not multiple hits. Its 1 attack. So yes, he stood "still" and took 1 attack to lose 9100 health.

    Actually, it is multiple hits, but maybe you mean 1 button press? Also, saying it's 1 thing alone is grossly misrepresenting what it takes to get high nade barrage damage.

    this is so laughable. Warrior bursts are incredibly predictable and even their moves are telegraphed, not to mention truly melee in range. The class is so underpowered right now especially compared to a meta nade holo.

    Meanwhile we have holosmiths who have a larger range than a friggin GREATSWORD running warrior while running a SWORD... (Holo forge autos have the lowest range at 240 compared to 130 on greatsword and the rest holo skills are 300 or 600... You can also turn autos on holo into a ranged attack too lol )

    and grenades are 900 range.

    did I mention how Holo's also have superspeed to close the distance and even stealth...

    ridiculous.

  • bethekey.8314bethekey.8314 Member ✭✭✭

    @Zeesh.7286 said:
    this is so laughable. Warrior bursts are incredibly predictable and even their moves are telegraphed, not to mention truly melee in range. The class is so underpowered right now especially compared to a meta nade holo.

    Meanwhile we have holosmiths who have a larger range than a friggin GREATSWORD running warrior while running a SWORD... (Holo forge autos have the lowest range at 240 compared to 130 on greatsword and the rest holo skills are 300 or 600... You can also turn autos on holo into a ranged attack too lol )

    and grenades are 900 range.

    did I mention how Holo's also have superspeed to close the distance and even stealth...

    ridiculous.

    Nerf both. 18k damage in 1 second. Ridiculous.

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  • felix.2386felix.2386 Member ✭✭✭

    @bethekey.8314 said:

    @felix.2386 said:
    while grenade barrage damage apply right after 1/2 second cast time, which means it took the warrior 4 seconds+ to deal the damage in the video while grenade barrage took 0.5 second to deal 9k+

    Rewatch the video. 18k+ damage in ~1 second. I couldn't dodge the headbutt because of the aftercast from Hammer 3 / precasted Headbutt from the Warrior. Not sure what you mean regarding the 2 second reaction time. You mean while I was stunned?

    rewatch the video, you got set up in 0:05 and killed in 8
    that's 18k damage in 3 seconds with obvious wind up window.
    while grenade barrage did 9k in 0.5 seconds, i'm not sure if you graduated primary school, but i'll let you do the math yourself.
    even this thread is really only about burst damage, you still lose the favor.
    but the same exact warrior build won't last you for more then 2 mins in any non-bot game, while holo allows you to even 1v2.

    but it's fine keep defending, it will get nerfed anyway, no matter how desperate you are.

    warrior has been unplayable in pvp
    for 6 months till now

    good job balance team

  • Ragnar.4257Ragnar.4257 Member ✭✭✭

    @bethekey.8314 said:

    @Zeesh.7286 said:
    this is so laughable. Warrior bursts are incredibly predictable and even their moves are telegraphed, not to mention truly melee in range. The class is so underpowered right now especially compared to a meta nade holo.

    Meanwhile we have holosmiths who have a larger range than a friggin GREATSWORD running warrior while running a SWORD... (Holo forge autos have the lowest range at 240 compared to 130 on greatsword and the rest holo skills are 300 or 600... You can also turn autos on holo into a ranged attack too lol )

    and grenades are 900 range.

    did I mention how Holo's also have superspeed to close the distance and even stealth...

    ridiculous.

    Nerf both. 18k damage in 1 second. Ridiculous.

    No. 18k damage is fine on a pure glass-cannon build that can't survive 5 seconds in a teamfight.

    The total damage is irrelevant.

    It is the ratio of damage to survivability that is relevant.

  • bethekey.8314bethekey.8314 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ragnar.4257 said:
    No. 18k damage is fine on a pure glass-cannon build that can't survive 5 seconds in a teamfight.

    I disagree.

    The total damage is irrelevant.

    Tell that to the original poster.

    It is the ratio of damage to survivability that is relevant.

    It's almost as if builds should be considered in their entirety. Weird.

    In order to ensure our forums are pleasant and safe for all forum members, we expect all contributors to be respectful of one another. Posts that are rude towards or attack another member, single out a player for ridicule, or that accuse someone of inappropriate behavior will be removed.

  • Megametzler.5729Megametzler.5729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Tempest CC spam is OP? I will make a video where a thief constantly headshots someone and call the CC perfectly balanced, as all things should be!

  • @bethekey.8314 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:
    Fast and overwhelming damage is usually balanced by cast times, animations, or range. The cone for Decapitate is 300 in front of the Warrior with a massive swing animation, Nade Barrage is a 900 range massive AoE with almost no tell, you can't be serious.

    @bethekey.8314 said:
    Remember, decapitate doesn't need to be aimed and the whirl is AOE too. High holo grenade damage requires traits as well. The "didn't stunbreak" argument is analogous to the satirical "just dodge" argument made by another poster. I'm all for better animations.

    See my previous response.

    The stunbreak argument isn't the same as just dodge. You bring stunbreaks for CC. If you don't have them, it's because your build is a problem you need to fix.

    Let's walk through this together ok :) Pretend I have my stunbreak off cooldown (elixir U here) and I use it to get out of the stun in the clip. The huge burst damage is incoming. What must I do? Dodge maybe?

    Are we really going to have to explain why zerk isn't viable? You died to it because you didn't have a stun break. You dying because your build was bad doesn't mean the Warrior build was viable. Stop.

    I've been playing builds deemed "nonviable" by the community the entire 8 or so years Guild Wars 2 has existed, and done very well with them. Please, define "viable" for me.

    Obviously dodge. You were hit with a CC skill used to setup big burst hits. You died not because you didn't dodge but because you didn't have a stun break. If you had Elixir S, probably the best stun break in the game, you wouldn't even have to dodge since the entire burst rotation would just be negated. Your build was bad, nothing about the zerks build is a problem.

    Lol you're claiming to do fine with nonviable builds but complain that you got dumpstered by one of the most obvious and easily negated burst combos in the game? You're really discrediting yourself.

  • @bethekey.8314 said:

    @Zeesh.7286 said:
    this is so laughable. Warrior bursts are incredibly predictable and even their moves are telegraphed, not to mention truly melee in range. The class is so underpowered right now especially compared to a meta nade holo.

    Meanwhile we have holosmiths who have a larger range than a friggin GREATSWORD running warrior while running a SWORD... (Holo forge autos have the lowest range at 240 compared to 130 on greatsword and the rest holo skills are 300 or 600... You can also turn autos on holo into a ranged attack too lol )

    and grenades are 900 range.

    did I mention how Holo's also have superspeed to close the distance and even stealth...

    ridiculous.

    Nerf both. 18k damage in 1 second. Ridiculous.

    In other words, make Warrior not only work 3x as hard to even do damage, make it so they don't even do enough to be a threat. Sounds like someone just needs to learn how to fight warriors or adjust their build.

  • bethekey.8314bethekey.8314 Member ✭✭✭

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:
    Obviously dodge. You were hit with a CC skill used to setup big burst hits. You died not because you didn't dodge but because you didn't have a stun break. If you had Elixir S, probably the best stun break in the game, you wouldn't even have to dodge since the entire burst rotation would just be negated. Your build was bad, nothing about the zerks build is a problem.

    Glad we worked through that problem together :) Engineer only having 1 "viable" stunbreak sounds pretty bad to me. We should buff engineer!

    Also, please define viable for me still.

    Lol you're claiming to do fine with nonviable builds but complain that you got dumpstered by one of the most obvious and easily negated burst combos in the game? You're really discrediting yourself.

    Everyone dies sometimes. No need to be mean about it! I don't quite understand how my individual skill plays into this, but I have other videos on my channel if you're interested and regularly sit in the top 1-25 (mmr wise) when I do play ranked.

    In order to ensure our forums are pleasant and safe for all forum members, we expect all contributors to be respectful of one another. Posts that are rude towards or attack another member, single out a player for ridicule, or that accuse someone of inappropriate behavior will be removed.

  • bethekey.8314bethekey.8314 Member ✭✭✭

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @bethekey.8314 said:
    Nerf both. 18k damage in 1 second. Ridiculous.

    In other words, make Warrior not only work 3x as hard to even do damage, make it so they don't even do enough to be a threat. Sounds like someone just needs to learn how to fight warriors or adjust their build.

    Work 3x as hard? Please elaborate.

    And what counts as "damage" to you? Is there a threshold?

    In order to ensure our forums are pleasant and safe for all forum members, we expect all contributors to be respectful of one another. Posts that are rude towards or attack another member, single out a player for ridicule, or that accuse someone of inappropriate behavior will be removed.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lighter.5631 said:
    killshot can barely do 7k on tier 3 with for great jutice and on my mark combined.

    one not? if you sure what this is easy - make same biuld and be always winner.

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • CutesySylveon.8290CutesySylveon.8290 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 8, 2020

    @bethekey.8314 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:
    Obviously dodge. You were hit with a CC skill used to setup big burst hits. You died not because you didn't dodge but because you didn't have a stun break. If you had Elixir S, probably the best stun break in the game, you wouldn't even have to dodge since the entire burst rotation would just be negated. Your build was bad, nothing about the zerks build is a problem.

    Glad we worked through that problem together :) Engineer only having 1 "viable" stunbreak sounds pretty bad to me. We should buff engineer!

    Also, please define viable for me still.

    Lol you're claiming to do fine with nonviable builds but complain that you got dumpstered by one of the most obvious and easily negated burst combos in the game? You're really discrediting yourself.

    Everyone dies sometimes. No need to be mean about it! I don't quite understand how my individual skill plays into this, but I have other videos on my channel if you're interested and regularly sit in the top 1-25 (mmr wise) when I do play ranked.

    Indeed, the problem is your build lacks stun breaks and anti CC tools. Fix it. You're inserting a lot of things people aren't saying. I didn't say engi only had 1 'viable' stun break, you're straight up lying here. I said engi has probably the best stun break in Elixir S and that you should be using it, that's no judgment on the viability of the other stun breaks.

    Everyone dies sometimes, true. You dying to a highly telegraphed burst combo spanning multiple seconds isn't a matter of individual skill but build composition. Your ranked claim is either a lie or a bad indication of the playerbase in that tier. I'm going with the former.

    Viability is determined by how well a build or skill functions in the current meta environment, how well it fits into it and how well it plays against the standard meta builds. Meta means 'Most Effective Tactics Available', and if your build can't either compete against or serve a valuable niche in the meta, then it's not viable.
    Zerk isn't viable because it requires full offensive investment while having absolutely no defense or countermeasures against meta builds; it gets dumpstered by rev, holo, thief, even most guardian builds.
    Holo on the other hand has every tool available to them and can effectively counter many off meta builds and give meta builds a significant challenge, win outright, or negate their use.

    Zerk isn't viable and its damage is fine. Nade Barrage's isn't.

  • Zeesh.7286Zeesh.7286 Member ✭✭✭

    At this point I refuse to take anything @bethekey.8314 says seriously even if he says something like "daytime is when the sun is up" because good god the arguments are so absurd!

    Circling back to the OP, I don't think they can properly fix enti without touching scrapper, holosmith and explosives traitlines. Some of the traits like the damage on explosive entrance with no ICD on it except a dodge, the might generation and x% damage increase based on heat level in holosmith etc. are way too overturned. They boost any wet noodle like skill into a missile by just ramping up so much damage modifiers.

    They can't fix it unless they sit down and actually check the trait lines especially holosmith. Mostly they just tweak the coefficients and CDs on skills and that is waste of time and instead nerfs build variety and experimentation because the skills are also present in other iterations like core engi.

  • Ghos.1326Ghos.1326 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @bethekey.8314 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:
    Obviously dodge. You were hit with a CC skill used to setup big burst hits. You died not because you didn't dodge but because you didn't have a stun break. If you had Elixir S, probably the best stun break in the game, you wouldn't even have to dodge since the entire burst rotation would just be negated. Your build was bad, nothing about the zerks build is a problem.

    Glad we worked through that problem together :) Engineer only having 1 "viable" stunbreak sounds pretty bad to me. We should buff engineer!

    Also, please define viable for me still.

    Lol you're claiming to do fine with nonviable builds but complain that you got dumpstered by one of the most obvious and easily negated burst combos in the game? You're really discrediting yourself.

    Everyone dies sometimes. No need to be mean about it! I don't quite understand how my individual skill plays into this, but I have other videos on my channel if you're interested and regularly sit in the top 1-25 (mmr wise) when I do play ranked.

    They can't and won't define viable to you because they don't know what that is themselves. They'll only point out how "bad" you were in the fight, or "are" in general. It's like arguing with kids.
    No logic, only feelings. As for me, I understand your point entirely, and I agree with you. Both should be nerfed accordingly.

    The greatest enemy to improvement, is ignorance. But the desire to learn will cast ignorance into the fire.

  • @felix.2386 said:

    @bethekey.8314 said:

    @felix.2386 said:
    while grenade barrage damage apply right after 1/2 second cast time, which means it took the warrior 4 seconds+ to deal the damage in the video while grenade barrage took 0.5 second to deal 9k+

    Rewatch the video. 18k+ damage in ~1 second. I couldn't dodge the headbutt because of the aftercast from Hammer 3 / precasted Headbutt from the Warrior. Not sure what you mean regarding the 2 second reaction time. You mean while I was stunned?

    rewatch the video, you got set up in 0:05 and killed in 8
    that's 18k damage in 3 seconds with obvious wind up window.
    while grenade barrage did 9k in 0.5 seconds, i'm not sure if you graduated primary school, but i'll let you do the math yourself.
    even this thread is really only about burst damage, you still lose the favor.
    but the same exact warrior build won't last you for more then 2 mins in any non-bot game, while holo allows you to even 1v2.

    but it's fine keep defending, it will get nerfed anyway, no matter how desperate you are.

    He is not wrong when says that he ate 18k in one second. He is just forgeting the time and setup for it (about 3sec on warrior) against the other skill time and setup . But he is wrong when he does this comparision because if he only counts time when damage starts, is almost saying that holo grenade barrage is instant while warrior does the damage in one second.