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  • bethekey.8314bethekey.8314 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 8, 2020

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:
    Everyone dies sometimes, true. You dying to a highly telegraphed burst combo spanning multiple seconds isn't a matter of individual skill but build composition. Your ranked claim is either a lie or a bad indication of the playerbase in that tier. I'm going with the former.

    Can't dodge telegraphs if you're stunned! And again, so rude!

    Please show the community proof of your ranked prowess (video form preferred, like on my channel) and define what rank is necessary to have an opinion on the forums.

    Indeed, the problem is your build lacks stun breaks and anti CC tools. Fix it. You're inserting a lot of things people aren't saying. I didn't say engi only had 1 'viable' stun break, you're straight up lying here. I said engi has probably the best stun break in Elixir S and that you should be using it, that's no judgment on the viability of the other stun breaks.

    The build works just fine in most situations thank you :) If you're interested in trying it, check out my latest video.

    To me, if every engineer is forced to use the same skill, the others aren't "viable". Buff engineer!

    Viability is determined by how well a build or skill functions in the current meta environment, how well it fits into it and how well it plays against the standard meta builds. Meta means 'Most Effective Tactics Available', and if your build can't either compete against or serve a valuable niche in the meta, then it's not viable.

    Thank you for defining it! So, how do we measure viability in a fair way?

    Rank? Well, certainly skill is a big factor here. Holo is undoubtedly a strong build, but I'd bet there are low rated holo players.
    Popularity? Nade holo was possible for awhile before it became popular, sometimes the best builds aren't well known.
    Maybe a combination of both? What's popular among high ranks? Is there a different "meta" at different ranks?

    Doesn't seem so straightforward to me, yet you toss around "this is viable" "this isn't viable" like candy as if you're the end-all expert on every class.

    Zerk isn't viable because it requires full offensive investment while having absolutely no defense or countermeasures against meta builds; it gets dumpstered by rev, holo, thief, even most guardian builds.
    Holo on the other hand has every tool available to them and can effectively counter many off meta builds and give meta builds a significant challenge, win outright, or negate their use.
    Zerk isn't viable and its damage is fine. Nade Barrage's isn't.

    Nerf them all. I don't think 18k damage in 1 second is healthy, and if there are builds stronger than that, nerf 'em.

    In order to ensure our forums are pleasant and safe for all forum members, we expect all contributors to be respectful of one another. Posts that are rude towards or attack another member, single out a player for ridicule, or that accuse someone of inappropriate behavior will be removed.

  • bethekey.8314bethekey.8314 Member ✭✭✭

    @silentnight warrior.2714 said:
    He is not wrong when says that he ate 18k in one second. He is just forgeting the time and setup for it (about 3sec on warrior) against the other skill time and setup . But he is wrong when he does this comparision because if he only counts time when damage starts, is almost saying that holo grenade barrage is instant while warrior does the damage in one second.

    Thank you, and yes the comparison isn't perfect because we lack more information from the OP's screenshot. Did OP have 25 stacks of vulnerability or prot on him? What amulet is he running? What happened after the nade barrage?

    To be clear, the "setup" for decapitate is 3/4th of a second, not 3 seconds.

    I suppose the question is, can a holosmith pump out another 9k damage in 1 second with nade barrage on cooldown? The warrior certainly had more damage, with decapitate recharged and another axe throw.

    In order to ensure our forums are pleasant and safe for all forum members, we expect all contributors to be respectful of one another. Posts that are rude towards or attack another member, single out a player for ridicule, or that accuse someone of inappropriate behavior will be removed.

  • @bethekey.8314 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:
    Everyone dies sometimes, true. You dying to a highly telegraphed burst combo spanning multiple seconds isn't a matter of individual skill but build composition. Your ranked claim is either a lie or a bad indication of the playerbase in that tier. I'm going with the former.

    Can't dodge telegraphs if you're stunned! And again, so rude!

    Please show the community proof of your ranked prowess (video form preferred, like on my channel) and define what rank is necessary to have an opinion on the forums.

    Indeed, the problem is your build lacks stun breaks and anti CC tools. Fix it. You're inserting a lot of things people aren't saying. I didn't say engi only had 1 'viable' stun break, you're straight up lying here. I said engi has probably the best stun break in Elixir S and that you should be using it, that's no judgment on the viability of the other stun breaks.

    The build works just fine in most situations thank you :) If you're interested in trying it, check out my latest video.

    To me, if every engineer is forced to use the same skill, the others aren't "viable". Buff engineer!

    Viability is determined by how well a build or skill functions in the current meta environment, how well it fits into it and how well it plays against the standard meta builds. Meta means 'Most Effective Tactics Available', and if your build can't either compete against or serve a valuable niche in the meta, then it's not viable.

    Thank you for defining it! So, how do we measure viability in a fair way?

    Rank? Well, certainly skill is a big factor here. Holo is undoubtedly a strong build, but I'd bet there are low rated holo players.
    Popularity? Nade holo was possible for awhile before it became popular, sometimes the best builds aren't well known.
    Maybe a combination of both? What's popular among high ranks? Is there a different "meta" at different ranks?

    Doesn't seem so straightforward to me, yet you toss around "this is viable" "this isn't viable" like candy as if you're the end-all expert on every class.

    Zerk isn't viable because it requires full offensive investment while having absolutely no defense or countermeasures against meta builds; it gets dumpstered by rev, holo, thief, even most guardian builds.
    Holo on the other hand has every tool available to them and can effectively counter many off meta builds and give meta builds a significant challenge, win outright, or negate their use.
    Zerk isn't viable and its damage is fine. Nade Barrage's isn't.

    Nerf them all. I don't think 18k damage in 1 second is healthy, and if there are builds stronger than that, nerf 'em.

    You're completely ignoring everything I say and inserting ridiculous interpretations of it. I defined both the concept of Meta and viability, neither of which involved rank, skill level, or popularity. You just repeatedly inserted things I didn't say to try to shift the discussion. Viability isn't measured on what's fair, it's about what works. If your garbage build doesn't work in the contexts I described, it's not viable.

    You dodge telegraphs after stun breaking if you're stunned. If you can’t break, you either got outplayed or have a bad build that needs adjusting, like adding more stun breaks. Cry harder about rudeness, it's the facts.

    I never said engineers were forced to use a skill, I said it's one of the best in its category and has no reason not to use. Your argument here also doesn't make sense. Engineers using Elixir S because it's broken doesn't mean the others are bad. 'To me' as you say is the problem. You're wrong.

    18k damage in one second didn't happen, you're lying again. You're also only looking at raw damage and nothing else. If a skill did 50k damage but took 5 seconds to cast and killed the caster if it was interrupted, it would be a bad skill. Other factors are at play, and they're heavily AGAINST Berserker. Everything is in favor of the Holo using Nade Barrage.

    Your build is bad if it lost to zerk that quickly. Either that or you just let it happen to feign outrage to try to prove a point you can't because it's ridiculous.

  • bethekey.8314bethekey.8314 Member ✭✭✭

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:
    You're completely ignoring everything I say and inserting ridiculous interpretations of it. I defined both the concept of Meta and viability, neither of which involved rank, skill level, or popularity. You just repeatedly inserted things I didn't say to try to shift the discussion. Viability isn't measured on what's fair, it's about what works. If your garbage build doesn't work in the contexts I described, it's not viable.

    You dodge telegraphs after stun breaking if you're stunned. If you can’t break, you either got outplayed or have a bad build that needs adjusting, like adding more stun breaks. Cry harder about rudeness, it's the facts.

    I never said engineers were forced to use a skill, I said it's one of the best in its category and has no reason not to use. Your argument here also doesn't make sense. Engineers using Elixir S because it's broken doesn't mean the others are bad. 'To me' as you say is the problem. You're wrong.

    18k damage in one second didn't happen, you're lying again. You're also only looking at raw damage and nothing else. If a skill did 50k damage but took 5 seconds to cast and killed the caster if it was interrupted, it would be a bad skill. Other factors are at play, and they're heavily AGAINST Berserker. Everything is in favor of the Holo using Nade Barrage.

    Your build is bad if it lost to zerk that quickly. Either that or you just let it happen to feign outrage to try to prove a point you can't because it's ridiculous.

    Are you ok?

    In order to ensure our forums are pleasant and safe for all forum members, we expect all contributors to be respectful of one another. Posts that are rude towards or attack another member, single out a player for ridicule, or that accuse someone of inappropriate behavior will be removed.

  • bethekey.8314bethekey.8314 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ghos.1326 said:
    They can't and won't define viable to you because they don't know what that is themselves. They'll only point out how "bad" you were in the fight, or "are" in general. It's like arguing with kids.
    No logic, only feelings. As for me, I understand your point entirely, and I agree with you. Both should be nerfed accordingly.

    It do be like that sometimes. Thanks for the support. I'm sure you must be having a laugh at people discussing the viability of FT scrapper :lol:

    In order to ensure our forums are pleasant and safe for all forum members, we expect all contributors to be respectful of one another. Posts that are rude towards or attack another member, single out a player for ridicule, or that accuse someone of inappropriate behavior will be removed.

  • bethekey.8314bethekey.8314 Member ✭✭✭

    @felix.2386

    I don't think I've played holosmith in over a year. Looking forward to it being nerfed. Pretty sure @Ghos.1326 doesn't play holosmith either.

    Warrior has even higher damage than holosmith, according to my video proof. Nerf it too.

    In order to ensure our forums are pleasant and safe for all forum members, we expect all contributors to be respectful of one another. Posts that are rude towards or attack another member, single out a player for ridicule, or that accuse someone of inappropriate behavior will be removed.

  • @bethekey.8314 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:
    You're completely ignoring everything I say and inserting ridiculous interpretations of it. I defined both the concept of Meta and viability, neither of which involved rank, skill level, or popularity. You just repeatedly inserted things I didn't say to try to shift the discussion. Viability isn't measured on what's fair, it's about what works. If your garbage build doesn't work in the contexts I described, it's not viable.

    You dodge telegraphs after stun breaking if you're stunned. If you can’t break, you either got outplayed or have a bad build that needs adjusting, like adding more stun breaks. Cry harder about rudeness, it's the facts.

    I never said engineers were forced to use a skill, I said it's one of the best in its category and has no reason not to use. Your argument here also doesn't make sense. Engineers using Elixir S because it's broken doesn't mean the others are bad. 'To me' as you say is the problem. You're wrong.

    18k damage in one second didn't happen, you're lying again. You're also only looking at raw damage and nothing else. If a skill did 50k damage but took 5 seconds to cast and killed the caster if it was interrupted, it would be a bad skill. Other factors are at play, and they're heavily AGAINST Berserker. Everything is in favor of the Holo using Nade Barrage.

    Your build is bad if it lost to zerk that quickly. Either that or you just let it happen to feign outrage to try to prove a point you can't because it's ridiculous.

    Are you ok?

    Fewer things could be better, I just don't have time for what you're doing. It's disingenuous. If you're the rank you claim to be, you understand the concept of viability and what is and isn't viable. Berserker isn't, Holo is; Nade Barrage is a tool in their kit that is too powerful and needs adjusting.

    Heck, I'd like to see a new version of it that combines some of the effects of the grenade kit since it's supposed to be a barrage. Cut the damage, add some utility.

  • bethekey.8314bethekey.8314 Member ✭✭✭

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:
    Fewer things could be better, I just don't have time for what you're doing. It's disingenuous. If you're the rank you claim to be, you understand the concept of viability and what is and isn't viable. Berserker isn't, Holo is; Nade Barrage is a tool in their kit that is too powerful and needs adjusting.

    Heck, I'd like to see a new version of it that combines some of the effects of the grenade kit since it's supposed to be a barrage. Cut the damage, add some utility.

    What am I doing? I do have my own concept of viability, but it clearly differs from yours. So, I asked you to define it so we can speak with a mutual understanding. I'm trying to have a discussion here; you're trying to negate my opinion based on rank/skill etc. Yet you act like the victim.

    Grenade kit and holosmith are two separate things. Grenades were already nerfed and serve as a much needed source of damage among plenty of engineer utility. Holosmith should be further. I believe the might generation and passive damage are good targets.

    Berserker seems viable to me, maybe taking slightly less damage (maybe to do ~12k in 1 sec, less than 18k but still ridiculous) in favor of more survivability. I think this level of damage is a bit too high and OP should too if he's unbiased, based on his posts logic.

    In order to ensure our forums are pleasant and safe for all forum members, we expect all contributors to be respectful of one another. Posts that are rude towards or attack another member, single out a player for ridicule, or that accuse someone of inappropriate behavior will be removed.

  • CutesySylveon.8290CutesySylveon.8290 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 8, 2020

    @bethekey.8314 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:
    Fewer things could be better, I just don't have time for what you're doing. It's disingenuous. If you're the rank you claim to be, you understand the concept of viability and what is and isn't viable. Berserker isn't, Holo is; Nade Barrage is a tool in their kit that is too powerful and needs adjusting.

    Heck, I'd like to see a new version of it that combines some of the effects of the grenade kit since it's supposed to be a barrage. Cut the damage, add some utility.

    What am I doing? I do have my own concept of viability, but it clearly differs from yours. So, I asked you to define it so we can speak with a mutual understanding. I'm trying to have a discussion here; you're trying to negate my opinion based on rank/skill etc. Yet you act like the victim.

    Grenade kit and holosmith are two separate things. Grenades were already nerfed and serve as a much needed source of damage among plenty of engineer utility. Holosmith should be further. I believe the might generation and passive damage are good targets.

    Berserker seems viable to me, maybe taking slightly less damage (maybe to do ~12k in 1 sec, less than 18k but still ridiculous) in favor of more survivability. I think this level of damage is a bit too high and OP should too if he's unbiased, based on his posts logic.

    How is there any other way of defining viability? I've repeatedly said over and over that viability isn't tied to skill and rank, that's you inserting that as you've done many times.

    We know grenades are separate from Holo, and I doubt anyone would argue its might generation needs big nerfs. The passive damage comes from Explosives and we all know EE and Flashbang are busted, but this doesn't mean Nade Barrage isn't as well. Even without max might, it still hits harder than it has business hitting considering its relevant contexts.

    Berserker isn't viable because in order to do its one job, it has to spec into every source of damage at the cost of any possible survivability. Once you start investing in bulk or defenses, the build becomes inferior to power rev and holo in almost every single aspect. The result is an all or nothing, 100-0 build that requires perfect setup to execute and has no room for failure or any backup plans. If you can’t build adrenaline, it's worthless. If you can’t land CC setups, it's worthless. If you face a condi build, it's worthless. Its setups are rather telegraphed, as well as the bursts, and crumbles to stab, Aegis, blinds, and weakness. All while being paper thin and unable to deal with being kited beyond Bulls Charge and Rush, which are both some of the most telegraphed skills in the game. Its weapon choices are pretty restricted as well, pretty much always being Greatsword and Axe. If it didn't have high damage, it would be, in all regards, outclassed by other builds that bring more to the table.

    Holo builds might passively with heat and has instant burst skills like Nade Barrage as well as CC setup bursts and an endless supply of utility. Where Zerk is predictable, Holo has burst on similar levels without the obvious patterns and ample means of defense.

  • Grimjack.8130Grimjack.8130 Member ✭✭✭

    even high level holos want holo nerfed, cause theyre not 1 tricks like some other people in this thread, that says enough about holo

    I'm a well known nobody.
    Former member of [MnF], [DnT], [dP], and [Hg]. Winner of the 2018 ERP Tournament.

  • Bast.7253Bast.7253 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Megametzler.5729 said:
    Tempest CC spam is OP? I will make a video where a thief constantly headshots someone and call the CC perfectly balanced, as all things should be!

    Thieves don't have an aura they can provide everyone that stuns on attack. Or a very large reasonable damage lightning field capable of further dazing people with combo finishers. Also, while headshot spam is annoying, it uses a lot of initiative so if not timed right it can be pretty punishing.

    I'd say shortbow 4 is more comparable than headshot and possibly even more spammy.

    Either way though, shocking aura is quite a strong ability to be shared to a whole team repeatedly during a fight. Not only do you have overload but you also have dagger 3.

    That being said, neither are as punishing as a bonus damage, blind, and daze on dodge, knockbacks and a tossable ranged daze with shield, or holoforge 5 ontop of elite turret drop. And I still feel like I'm missing more cc from holo even after all that. Ridiculous...

  • Zietlogik.6208Zietlogik.6208 Member ✭✭✭

    I mean...this exists too

  • Bast.7253Bast.7253 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zietlogik.6208 said:
    I mean...this exists too

    Is that thief staff 2? Aka the most avoidable skill in the game?

    And on the glassiest build possible as that damage can't be done without running crit strikes?

    lol Not even a slight comparison. Let's factor in glass sword weaver builds while we're at it. Nevermind the can be one shot by a holo auto.

  • Megametzler.5729Megametzler.5729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Bast.7253 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:
    Tempest CC spam is OP? I will make a video where a thief constantly headshots someone and call the CC perfectly balanced, as all things should be!

    Thieves don't have an aura they can provide everyone that stuns on attack. Or a very large reasonable damage lightning field capable of further dazing people with combo finishers. Also, while headshot spam is annoying, it uses a lot of initiative so if not timed right it can be pretty punishing.

    I'd say shortbow 4 is more comparable than headshot and possibly even more spammy.

    Either way though, shocking aura is quite a strong ability to be shared to a whole team repeatedly during a fight. Not only do you have overload but you also have dagger 3.

    That being said, neither are as punishing as a bonus damage, blind, and daze on dodge, knockbacks and a tossable ranged daze with shield, or holoforge 5 ontop of elite turret drop. And I still feel like I'm missing more cc from holo even after all that. Ridiculous...

    I kind of fear you missed the point... :lol:

    I was making fun of the holo-berserker comparison by comparing it to a tempest-thief. Of course it is nowhere near an even matchup, not the same role, not even close. But the interrupts can be just as many if that is your only viewpoint.

  • aaron.7850aaron.7850 Member ✭✭✭

    engis are supposed to outsmart their opponents

  • @bethekey.8314 said:

    Thank you, and yes the comparison isn't perfect because we lack more information from the OP's screenshot. Did OP have 25 stacks of vulnerability or prot on him? What amulet is he running? What happened after the nade barrage?

    To be clear, the "setup" for decapitate is 3/4th of a second, not 3 seconds.

    I suppose the question is, can a holosmith pump out another 9k damage in 1 second with nade barrage on cooldown? The warrior certainly had more damage, with decapitate recharged and another axe throw.

    It's my fault for wording that bad.
    What i had in mind with "setup" is the time diference between pressing the first button to end of damage. Sorry about the missunderstanding.

    Warrior did that within 3 sec.
    Holo did that in 0.5 sec.

    Also Warrior used more damage skills than Holo in the "setup" time.

    People just dont see warrior damage with bad eyes because that warrior will be in downstate 75% of the match. While holo can carry the team while still doing that amount of damage.

    If you speak only about raw damage then you still need to do the math for the dps.

    Holo did ~9k in 0.5 sec
    warr did ~18k in 1 sec.
    They are matched as you can see.

    Now if you add the builds surviability to this cenario you can understand why people are upset with only one of those classes.

    Imagine berzerker doing that damage pressing only one AOE button with holo surviability and utility. It would be broken as well.

    In your defense i also think that the game still have lots of builds that can dish out too many damage.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @choovanski.5462 said:

    @Lighter.5631 said:

    @bethekey.8314 said:

    Some hyperbole going on in this thread. If you're against high nade burst, you're against this too. Nerf warrior @Lighter.5631 ?

    For those that don't want to watch the clip:

    • From full health to 0, I died in ~1 second.
    • The hits were for 8450, 3414, 3639, and 3478 for a total of 18981.

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    I think you misunderstand, its not multiple hits. Its 1 attack. So yes, he stood "still" and took 1 attack to lose 9100 health.

    Actually, it is multiple hits, but maybe you mean 1 button press? Also, saying it's 1 thing alone is grossly misrepresenting what it takes to get high nade barrage damage.

    except this warrior build will get farmed all day with less then 10% uptime in any plat game, while holo can possibly 1v2 with the same build in the screenshot.

    see, this is the point people miss. it's not the nade dmg that's the issue, it's the fact holo has it and still has nuts sustain.

    if holo was as squishy as zerk, it would be fine. it needs it's sustain gutted. holo is supposed to be burst, scrapper is supposed to be tanky.

    so we gotta kill holo's sustain, so it can never 1v2 again.

    Holos sustain isnt even particularly good though. Thats not the issue. The issue is that damage is currently too low across the board. Everyone goes full zerk because you cant be killed in a 1v1 even as full zerk. Even bloody zerker thief is now "tanky". Just increase damage by 20-30% across the board (And Holos by less, though Id undo the grenade nerfs at the very least), and Holo is probably fine. And if not, you can go from there.

  • Miyu.8137Miyu.8137 Member ✭✭
    edited October 9, 2020
  • @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @choovanski.5462 said:

    @Lighter.5631 said:

    @bethekey.8314 said:

    Some hyperbole going on in this thread. If you're against high nade burst, you're against this too. Nerf warrior @Lighter.5631 ?

    For those that don't want to watch the clip:

    • From full health to 0, I died in ~1 second.
    • The hits were for 8450, 3414, 3639, and 3478 for a total of 18981.

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    I think you misunderstand, its not multiple hits. Its 1 attack. So yes, he stood "still" and took 1 attack to lose 9100 health.

    Actually, it is multiple hits, but maybe you mean 1 button press? Also, saying it's 1 thing alone is grossly misrepresenting what it takes to get high nade barrage damage.

    except this warrior build will get farmed all day with less then 10% uptime in any plat game, while holo can possibly 1v2 with the same build in the screenshot.

    see, this is the point people miss. it's not the nade dmg that's the issue, it's the fact holo has it and still has nuts sustain.

    if holo was as squishy as zerk, it would be fine. it needs it's sustain gutted. holo is supposed to be burst, scrapper is supposed to be tanky.

    so we gotta kill holo's sustain, so it can never 1v2 again.

    Holos sustain isnt even particularly good though. Thats not the issue. The issue is that damage is currently too low across the board. Everyone goes full zerk because you cant be killed in a 1v1 even as full zerk. Even bloody zerker thief is now "tanky". Just increase damage by 20-30% across the board (And Holos by less, though Id undo the grenade nerfs at the very least), and Holo is probably fine. And if not, you can go from there.

    This will put is right back where we were before the patch with people exploding after a single burst, turning it back into whoever jumps the other first. Thief isn't considered tanky because damage is so low, it's because of Shadow Arts giving it massive stealth uptime on top of its top tier mobility, meaning good thief players can not only disengage a fight they don't want, they can just stealth afterwards and ensure even other thief players can't kill them.

  • Eugchriss.2046Eugchriss.2046 Member ✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @choovanski.5462 said:

    @Lighter.5631 said:

    @bethekey.8314 said:

    Some hyperbole going on in this thread. If you're against high nade burst, you're against this too. Nerf warrior @Lighter.5631 ?

    For those that don't want to watch the clip:

    • From full health to 0, I died in ~1 second.
    • The hits were for 8450, 3414, 3639, and 3478 for a total of 18981.

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    I think you misunderstand, its not multiple hits. Its 1 attack. So yes, he stood "still" and took 1 attack to lose 9100 health.

    Actually, it is multiple hits, but maybe you mean 1 button press? Also, saying it's 1 thing alone is grossly misrepresenting what it takes to get high nade barrage damage.

    except this warrior build will get farmed all day with less then 10% uptime in any plat game, while holo can possibly 1v2 with the same build in the screenshot.

    see, this is the point people miss. it's not the nade dmg that's the issue, it's the fact holo has it and still has nuts sustain.

    if holo was as squishy as zerk, it would be fine. it needs it's sustain gutted. holo is supposed to be burst, scrapper is supposed to be tanky.

    so we gotta kill holo's sustain, so it can never 1v2 again.

    Holos sustain isnt even particularly good though. Thats not the issue. The issue is that damage is currently too low across the board.

    Dude, you really need to stop with this bs. We have only 1 spec which can achieve that level of sustain/damage/mobility and instead of adjusting that only spec you want to adjust everything else? kitten is this kind of thinking?

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @choovanski.5462 said:

    @Lighter.5631 said:

    @bethekey.8314 said:

    Some hyperbole going on in this thread. If you're against high nade burst, you're against this too. Nerf warrior @Lighter.5631 ?

    For those that don't want to watch the clip:

    • From full health to 0, I died in ~1 second.
    • The hits were for 8450, 3414, 3639, and 3478 for a total of 18981.

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    I think you misunderstand, its not multiple hits. Its 1 attack. So yes, he stood "still" and took 1 attack to lose 9100 health.

    Actually, it is multiple hits, but maybe you mean 1 button press? Also, saying it's 1 thing alone is grossly misrepresenting what it takes to get high nade barrage damage.

    except this warrior build will get farmed all day with less then 10% uptime in any plat game, while holo can possibly 1v2 with the same build in the screenshot.

    see, this is the point people miss. it's not the nade dmg that's the issue, it's the fact holo has it and still has nuts sustain.

    if holo was as squishy as zerk, it would be fine. it needs it's sustain gutted. holo is supposed to be burst, scrapper is supposed to be tanky.

    so we gotta kill holo's sustain, so it can never 1v2 again.

    Everyone goes full zerk because you cant be killed in a 1v1 even as full zerk. Even bloody zerker thief is now "tanky".

    So you re saying that zerker thief vs nade holo is an even fight?

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @choovanski.5462 said:

    @Lighter.5631 said:

    @bethekey.8314 said:

    Some hyperbole going on in this thread. If you're against high nade burst, you're against this too. Nerf warrior @Lighter.5631 ?

    For those that don't want to watch the clip:

    • From full health to 0, I died in ~1 second.
    • The hits were for 8450, 3414, 3639, and 3478 for a total of 18981.

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    I think you misunderstand, its not multiple hits. Its 1 attack. So yes, he stood "still" and took 1 attack to lose 9100 health.

    Actually, it is multiple hits, but maybe you mean 1 button press? Also, saying it's 1 thing alone is grossly misrepresenting what it takes to get high nade barrage damage.

    except this warrior build will get farmed all day with less then 10% uptime in any plat game, while holo can possibly 1v2 with the same build in the screenshot.

    see, this is the point people miss. it's not the nade dmg that's the issue, it's the fact holo has it and still has nuts sustain.

    if holo was as squishy as zerk, it would be fine. it needs it's sustain gutted. holo is supposed to be burst, scrapper is supposed to be tanky.

    so we gotta kill holo's sustain, so it can never 1v2 again.

    Holo is probably fine.

    Nice joke. Now how do you explain the fact that it's overrepresented in ranked then? Especially in the high end?

    -Peoples in a company: "Hey M. CEO, that guy over there is getting paid more than us while doing the same job"
    -CEO Unowen: "It's okay, I'm going to raise everybody's salary by 20%."
    -Peoples in a company: "Yeeay, Even the guy who is already getting paid more than us?"
    -CEO Unowen: "yes."
    -Peoples in a company :

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @choovanski.5462 said:

    @Lighter.5631 said:

    @bethekey.8314 said:

    Some hyperbole going on in this thread. If you're against high nade burst, you're against this too. Nerf warrior @Lighter.5631 ?

    For those that don't want to watch the clip:

    • From full health to 0, I died in ~1 second.
    • The hits were for 8450, 3414, 3639, and 3478 for a total of 18981.

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    I think you misunderstand, its not multiple hits. Its 1 attack. So yes, he stood "still" and took 1 attack to lose 9100 health.

    Actually, it is multiple hits, but maybe you mean 1 button press? Also, saying it's 1 thing alone is grossly misrepresenting what it takes to get high nade barrage damage.

    except this warrior build will get farmed all day with less then 10% uptime in any plat game, while holo can possibly 1v2 with the same build in the screenshot.

    see, this is the point people miss. it's not the nade dmg that's the issue, it's the fact holo has it and still has nuts sustain.

    if holo was as squishy as zerk, it would be fine. it needs it's sustain gutted. holo is supposed to be burst, scrapper is supposed to be tanky.

    so we gotta kill holo's sustain, so it can never 1v2 again.

    Holos sustain isnt even particularly good though. Thats not the issue. The issue is that damage is currently too low across the board. Everyone goes full zerk because you cant be killed in a 1v1 even as full zerk. Even bloody zerker thief is now "tanky". Just increase damage by 20-30% across the board (And Holos by less, though Id undo the grenade nerfs at the very least), and Holo is probably fine. And if not, you can go from there.

    This will put is right back where we were before the patch with people exploding after a single burst, turning it back into whoever jumps the other first. Thief isn't considered tanky because damage is so low, it's because of Shadow Arts giving it massive stealth uptime on top of its top tier mobility, meaning good thief players can not only disengage a fight they don't want, they can just stealth afterwards and ensure even other thief players can't kill them.

    A, no it wont, B, that wasnt even true pre-patch. Thief is tanky because damage is low. Im not talking about stealth here (its useless for defense anyway). Nor am I talking about running away. Im talking about a thief just staying in a fight scrapping it out. They should be blown up immediately, but now? They just dont die. The damage isnt there.

  • Ragnar.4257Ragnar.4257 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 9, 2020

    I mean, if you main Holo, I can see why you would think a zerker spec can't be killed 1v1.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Eugchriss.2046 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @choovanski.5462 said:

    @Lighter.5631 said:

    @bethekey.8314 said:

    Some hyperbole going on in this thread. If you're against high nade burst, you're against this too. Nerf warrior @Lighter.5631 ?

    For those that don't want to watch the clip:

    • From full health to 0, I died in ~1 second.
    • The hits were for 8450, 3414, 3639, and 3478 for a total of 18981.

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    I think you misunderstand, its not multiple hits. Its 1 attack. So yes, he stood "still" and took 1 attack to lose 9100 health.

    Actually, it is multiple hits, but maybe you mean 1 button press? Also, saying it's 1 thing alone is grossly misrepresenting what it takes to get high nade barrage damage.

    except this warrior build will get farmed all day with less then 10% uptime in any plat game, while holo can possibly 1v2 with the same build in the screenshot.

    see, this is the point people miss. it's not the nade dmg that's the issue, it's the fact holo has it and still has nuts sustain.

    if holo was as squishy as zerk, it would be fine. it needs it's sustain gutted. holo is supposed to be burst, scrapper is supposed to be tanky.

    so we gotta kill holo's sustain, so it can never 1v2 again.

    Holos sustain isnt even particularly good though. Thats not the issue. The issue is that damage is currently too low across the board.

    Dude, you really need to stop with this bs. We have only 1 spec which can achieve that level of sustain/damage/mobility and instead of adjusting that only spec you want to adjust everything else? kitten is this kind of thinking?

    Oh most classes can match Holos sustain and mobility. A few can even completely eclipse it. Mostly because their "sustain" is non-existent. The problem is, right now sustain doesnt matter, because you shouldnt die in a 1v1 anyway. Because damage is too low. Nerf Holo, and it doesnt fix the issue. You still get one class that does more damage than others while being unkillable, because being unkillable isnt because of Holo. Its because of the lack of damage. Or to put it bluntly, you want to fix an issue with the entire PvP balance by changing just one specific class and hoping that somehow it will change the whole thing.

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @choovanski.5462 said:

    @Lighter.5631 said:

    @bethekey.8314 said:

    Some hyperbole going on in this thread. If you're against high nade burst, you're against this too. Nerf warrior @Lighter.5631 ?

    For those that don't want to watch the clip:

    • From full health to 0, I died in ~1 second.
    • The hits were for 8450, 3414, 3639, and 3478 for a total of 18981.

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    I think you misunderstand, its not multiple hits. Its 1 attack. So yes, he stood "still" and took 1 attack to lose 9100 health.

    Actually, it is multiple hits, but maybe you mean 1 button press? Also, saying it's 1 thing alone is grossly misrepresenting what it takes to get high nade barrage damage.

    except this warrior build will get farmed all day with less then 10% uptime in any plat game, while holo can possibly 1v2 with the same build in the screenshot.

    see, this is the point people miss. it's not the nade dmg that's the issue, it's the fact holo has it and still has nuts sustain.

    if holo was as squishy as zerk, it would be fine. it needs it's sustain gutted. holo is supposed to be burst, scrapper is supposed to be tanky.

    so we gotta kill holo's sustain, so it can never 1v2 again.

    Everyone goes full zerk because you cant be killed in a 1v1 even as full zerk. Even bloody zerker thief is now "tanky".

    So you re saying that zerker thief vs nade holo is an even fight?

    Its a fight where neither dies. No matter how long it goes. So, yes, in a sense its "even". Of course, thief cant knockback well, and theyre worse for setting up +1s, so Holo is better, but the issue of neither dying is still there.

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @choovanski.5462 said:

    @Lighter.5631 said:

    @bethekey.8314 said:

    Some hyperbole going on in this thread. If you're against high nade burst, you're against this too. Nerf warrior @Lighter.5631 ?

    For those that don't want to watch the clip:

    • From full health to 0, I died in ~1 second.
    • The hits were for 8450, 3414, 3639, and 3478 for a total of 18981.

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    I think you misunderstand, its not multiple hits. Its 1 attack. So yes, he stood "still" and took 1 attack to lose 9100 health.

    Actually, it is multiple hits, but maybe you mean 1 button press? Also, saying it's 1 thing alone is grossly misrepresenting what it takes to get high nade barrage damage.

    except this warrior build will get farmed all day with less then 10% uptime in any plat game, while holo can possibly 1v2 with the same build in the screenshot.

    see, this is the point people miss. it's not the nade dmg that's the issue, it's the fact holo has it and still has nuts sustain.

    if holo was as squishy as zerk, it would be fine. it needs it's sustain gutted. holo is supposed to be burst, scrapper is supposed to be tanky.

    so we gotta kill holo's sustain, so it can never 1v2 again.

    Holo is probably fine.

    Nice joke. Now how do you explain the fact that it's overrepresented in ranked then? Especially in the high end?

    Can you not read? I said "if you fix the issue, Holo is fine". As in, its fine after the issue is fixed.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ragnar.4257 said:
    I mean, if you main Holo, I can see why you would think a zerker spec can't be killed 1v1.

    Nice try, but I play Core Engineer. Which is considered to be not very good. Its still unkillable in a 1v1.

  • CutesySylveon.8290CutesySylveon.8290 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 10, 2020

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @choovanski.5462 said:

    @Lighter.5631 said:

    @bethekey.8314 said:

    Some hyperbole going on in this thread. If you're against high nade burst, you're against this too. Nerf warrior @Lighter.5631 ?

    For those that don't want to watch the clip:

    • From full health to 0, I died in ~1 second.
    • The hits were for 8450, 3414, 3639, and 3478 for a total of 18981.

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    I think you misunderstand, its not multiple hits. Its 1 attack. So yes, he stood "still" and took 1 attack to lose 9100 health.

    Actually, it is multiple hits, but maybe you mean 1 button press? Also, saying it's 1 thing alone is grossly misrepresenting what it takes to get high nade barrage damage.

    except this warrior build will get farmed all day with less then 10% uptime in any plat game, while holo can possibly 1v2 with the same build in the screenshot.

    see, this is the point people miss. it's not the nade dmg that's the issue, it's the fact holo has it and still has nuts sustain.

    if holo was as squishy as zerk, it would be fine. it needs it's sustain gutted. holo is supposed to be burst, scrapper is supposed to be tanky.

    so we gotta kill holo's sustain, so it can never 1v2 again.

    Holos sustain isnt even particularly good though. Thats not the issue. The issue is that damage is currently too low across the board. Everyone goes full zerk because you cant be killed in a 1v1 even as full zerk. Even bloody zerker thief is now "tanky". Just increase damage by 20-30% across the board (And Holos by less, though Id undo the grenade nerfs at the very least), and Holo is probably fine. And if not, you can go from there.

    This will put is right back where we were before the patch with people exploding after a single burst, turning it back into whoever jumps the other first. Thief isn't considered tanky because damage is so low, it's because of Shadow Arts giving it massive stealth uptime on top of its top tier mobility, meaning good thief players can not only disengage a fight they don't want, they can just stealth afterwards and ensure even other thief players can't kill them.

    A, no it wont, B, that wasnt even true pre-patch. Thief is tanky because damage is low. Im not talking about stealth here (its useless for defense anyway). Nor am I talking about running away. Im talking about a thief just staying in a fight scrapping it out. They should be blown up immediately, but now? They just dont die. The damage isnt there.

    Both your A and B are just patently false. Thief -had- to spec into vitality because going full glass put you at risk of being legit one shot. No thief build is 'scrapping it out' in a fight unless you're a dueling build, you still die if you try to brawl with things that aren't mesmer or something else the specific build counters. Thief was and still is a +1, if you're duking it out head on, you're up against people who don't know what they're doing.

    Stealth is useless for defense? Odd, people claim it's worthless offensively too. It seems nobody really knows what it's good for despite being one of the single strongest mechanics in the game and SA is used in pretty much every viable thief build. Thief doesn't die because it can pick its fights, with damage lower you just have a chance to react and disengage before instantly dying. This is also off topic.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @choovanski.5462 said:

    @Lighter.5631 said:

    @bethekey.8314 said:

    Some hyperbole going on in this thread. If you're against high nade burst, you're against this too. Nerf warrior @Lighter.5631 ?

    For those that don't want to watch the clip:

    • From full health to 0, I died in ~1 second.
    • The hits were for 8450, 3414, 3639, and 3478 for a total of 18981.

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    I think you misunderstand, its not multiple hits. Its 1 attack. So yes, he stood "still" and took 1 attack to lose 9100 health.

    Actually, it is multiple hits, but maybe you mean 1 button press? Also, saying it's 1 thing alone is grossly misrepresenting what it takes to get high nade barrage damage.

    except this warrior build will get farmed all day with less then 10% uptime in any plat game, while holo can possibly 1v2 with the same build in the screenshot.

    see, this is the point people miss. it's not the nade dmg that's the issue, it's the fact holo has it and still has nuts sustain.

    if holo was as squishy as zerk, it would be fine. it needs it's sustain gutted. holo is supposed to be burst, scrapper is supposed to be tanky.

    so we gotta kill holo's sustain, so it can never 1v2 again.

    Holos sustain isnt even particularly good though. Thats not the issue. The issue is that damage is currently too low across the board. Everyone goes full zerk because you cant be killed in a 1v1 even as full zerk. Even bloody zerker thief is now "tanky". Just increase damage by 20-30% across the board (And Holos by less, though Id undo the grenade nerfs at the very least), and Holo is probably fine. And if not, you can go from there.

    This will put is right back where we were before the patch with people exploding after a single burst, turning it back into whoever jumps the other first. Thief isn't considered tanky because damage is so low, it's because of Shadow Arts giving it massive stealth uptime on top of its top tier mobility, meaning good thief players can not only disengage a fight they don't want, they can just stealth afterwards and ensure even other thief players can't kill them.

    A, no it wont, B, that wasnt even true pre-patch. Thief is tanky because damage is low. Im not talking about stealth here (its useless for defense anyway). Nor am I talking about running away. Im talking about a thief just staying in a fight scrapping it out. They should be blown up immediately, but now? They just dont die. The damage isnt there.

    Both your A and B are just patently false. Thief -had- to spec into vitality because going full glass put you at risk of being legit one shot. No thief build is 'scrapping it out' in a fight unless you're a dueling build, you still die if you try to brawl with things that aren't mesmer or something else the specific build counters. Thief was and still is a +1, if you're duking it out head on, you're up against people who don't know what they're doing.

    Except, Thief used Berserkers amulet. Now it did usually run Rune of Divinity, but its not like you werent at a risk of still being oneshot. Divinity was there just in case (and you had no need for more damage). Thief isnt scrapping it out because its a very poor use of its time and tools. But, if it were to scrap out, it does not die. Nothing dies. I played bloody meme one-shot Photonic Blasting Module Holo with Firearms and Explosives, and I still did not die. Damage is so low even meme glass cannon builds dont die unless you royally screw up. Any actually viable build? You can mess up hard. You wont die until youre outnumbered.

    Stealth is useless for defense? Odd, people claim it's worthless offensively too. It seems nobody really knows what it's good for despite being one of the single strongest mechanics in the game and SA is used in pretty much every viable thief build. Thief doesn't die because it can pick its fights, with damage lower you just have a chance to react and disengage before instantly dying. This is also off topic.

    Its good for offense, actually. Out of combat to prevent the enemy from realising theyre about to be ganked, activates stealth attacks, and of course, if youre not a thief, hides cast times. Its arguable that its one of the single strongest mechanics in the game. Id place it below a lot of mechanics. All defensive ones, teleports, and CC, for sure. SA is used in every viable thief build because its the most reliable damage traitline. Not because of what it does for stealth, because what it does for stealth is pretty much irrelevant. It gives you a movement speed boost in stealth. You only stay in stealht out of combat, where it gives you a grand total of 9 movement speed over the perma swiftness you already have. It increases the duration of stealth skills. Except you dont stay in stealth for max duration unless youre out of combat, and if youre out of combat, youre using BP+ Heartseeker. Which is unaffected.

  • Teb.6980Teb.6980 Member ✭✭
    edited October 14, 2020

    @Lighter.5631 said:

    what's balance, i think it does not exist in this game.

    killshot can barely do 7k on tier 3 with for great jutice and on my mark combined.

    Bro, bro...
    I'm a holo main here
    I don't use grenades, too low. Too much dmg for little skill
    Consider the February nerfs.
    They left grenades 100% untouched
    That is an indirect 33% dmg buff
    Recently they got like a 10% dmg nerf.
    Still stands like they were buffed in february. Grenades and several other overlooked dmg coefficients.
    lol
    It shouldn't exist at all
    It was simply not paid proper attention

    EDIT: Do you guys notice how the dmg per grenade increased? This was supposed to happen over several seconds if you consider the design of the blasting powder spec and how most engis can deliver like 1 explosion per 1 second. The count of grenades is absurd if you consider that fact.
    Also, the holo was kitten. A decent holo will first use corona for vuln then apply the big damage. But as you can see it's so much it doesn't even matter.
    A really smart nerf to grenades that doesn't target other explosives would be adding a 0.5 internal cooldown to [Steel-Packed powder], leaving e.g. mortar unaffected but still having grenades hit many times, with vuln proportional to other explosives