revenant versus spellbreaker

going to talk about full counter and the ability of the warrior to have almost perma resistance rotations with 4 skills . while also full counter also copy 5 condition, does dmg, remove 1 boon, aoe daze, give protections stability and more resistance and put two conditions cripple and slow and also unblockable!!!

revenant with mallyx must to trait for more resistance and mainly benefit if he drawn conditions from his team also using all nrg to pull it off, can copy only 3 conditions every 10 sec (full counter is 6 sec), must to use another nrg to remove 2 boons with another skill, must use staff for daze or cc, must use other trait line to gain stability or protection.

basically 2 heavy armor classes. 1 have it all with 1 skill when traited and the other even if traited must used about 4-5 skill to do almost the same thing and losing all nrg....also warrior dont have to play condi class rather revenant must use it if he goes with mallyxgive a reminder that mallyx should control conditions and puts tons of them on the enemy as he the master of the underworld ...

also another thing

insight versus kalla fervor

warrior get 60 ferocity per stack while kalla gives 30 per stackwarrior get 60 power while kalla gives 2% condition dmg

300 condition dmg does more ticks than 10% or even 20% if traited (again) condition dmg

insight duration is 15 sec while kalla is 8 sec....

its true kalla fervor is more easy to achieve than removing boon or cc from insight . but the 15 sec duration make it possible to maintain it quite easy and when its reached 5 stacks it does more dmg than 10 stacks of kalla fervor.

basically anet created a much weaker version with renegade as heavy armor class.

i want diversity with classes but while warrior can trait for more defense while his skills focus also on dmg and defense. revenant has much lower defense abilities and must use nrg and cd and more traits to get the same effect.

You can't compare Renegade to Spellbreaker. Renegade is a pure PvE spec focused on condition/hybrid damage, and to some extent works better at that goal than Spellbreaker (in the sense that deals higher dps), despite once survability is required the Spellbreaker is way better. Spellbreaker instead is a power oriented build focused in PvP, a bruiser centered about debuffing foes which deals less damage but has crazy survability.

To some extent the SB makes easier to notice how weak is the Mallyx defense against conditions, because has much larger resistance duration (x3~x4) and better cleansing. You should instead pair power Herald with spellbreaker, because is the only true competitive PvP build the Revenant has; the Herald provides better burst damage and AoE cleave compared to the SB, but is harder to play, is more vulnerable to conditions and cc and is weaker in self sustain. Also lacks the flexibility of a class able to swich all their utilities and perform ok with a number of weapons (power Herld can only switch off hand, main hand sword and staff are pretty much mandatory).

@Buran.3796 said:to swich all their utilities and perform ok with a number of weapons (power Herld can only switch off hand, main hand sword and staff are pretty much mandatory).

People still take staff...? I've just been using sword/double OH since that last round of SotM nerfs and haven't been happier. You sacrifice not having a 2nd block AND a cc on your swap (and have to pick between the two), but never being away from your sword's aa damage more than makes up for it...

Axe is surprisingly strong in a power build since they added Slow to FB. When +1'ing, an axe 5/4 combo leaves the target equally--if not more--screwed than the old Phase Travers+SotM combo, and costs much less energy to open with, so it doesn't require an immediate stance swap.

@narcx.3570 said:

People still take staff...? I've just been using sword/double OH since that last round of SotM nerfs and haven't been happier. You sacrifice not having a 2nd block AND a cc on your swap (and have to pick between the two), but never being away from your sword's aa damage more than makes up for it...

Rev doesn't have problems doing damage in PvP/WvW, has problems dealing with condi damage/cc. Staff reinforces the sustain; I do think that sword + X/staff is still the strongest combo.

@Buran.3796 said:

@narcx.3570 said:

People still take staff...? I've just been using sword/double OH since that last round of SotM nerfs and haven't been happier. You sacrifice not having a 2nd block AND a cc on your swap (and have to pick between the two), but never being away from your sword's aa damage more than makes up for it...

I think in WvW, yeah staff's still relevant, cuz both parties generally have at least a little bit of sustain built in and you're probably not using the death trap shield anyways...

But in sPvP, I don't really find the cleanse very useful mid fight... It's really only good when you're totally disengaging or after the fight's over. The amount of energy and 10 second loss of dps (not to mention the cast time that feels like an eternity) puts you so far behind, especially considering how free and easy it is for them to just re-condi'ify you. And if you for some reason find yourself 1v1 against a condi heavy opponent, you can't really afford to stretch that fight out anyways, and that's pretty much what the staff is all about.

You should give sword/axe/shield or sword/sword/shield a chance some game, you'll be pleasantly surprised with how more in control you feel again.

@Buran.3796 said:You can't compare Renegade to Spellbreaker. Renegade is a pure PvE spec focused on condition/hybrid damage, and to some extent works better at that goal than Spellbreaker (in the sense that deals higher dps), despite once survability is required the Spellbreaker is way better. Spellbreaker instead is a power oriented build focused in PvP, a bruiser centered about debuffing foes which deals less damage but has crazy survability.

To some extent the SB makes easier to notice how weak is the Mallyx defense against conditions, because has much larger resistance duration (x3~x4) and better cleansing. You should instead pair power Herald with spellbreaker, because is the only true competitive PvP build the Revenant has; the Herald provides better burst damage and AoE cleave compared to the SB, but is harder to play, is more vulnerable to conditions and cc and is weaker in self sustain. Also lacks the flexibility of a class able to swich all their utilities and perform ok with a number of weapons (power Herld can only switch off hand, main hand sword and staff are pretty much mandatory).you miss it all.i didnt compare between renegade. i compare it to traits and skills. how one can do with 1 skill with low cd what the other need 4-6 skills and more traits and nrg.its not about the dmg or the weapon. its not about the role. its about the fact that revenant (renegade, herald) is much much weaker due to forced to use more traits and manage nrg and cd to pull the same results as SP

@messiah.1908 said:

i didnt compare between renegade. i compare it to traits and skills. how one can do with 1 skill with low cd what the other need 4-6 skills and more traits and nrg.its not about the dmg or the weapon. its not about the role. its about the fact that revenant (renegade, herald) is much much weaker due to forced to use more traits and manage nrg and cd to pull the same results as SP

This is a typical SB PvP build:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vJAQNAoeRnMdAt6iVhAehAciglqADPEXiXxIFgGQAQpHE7yBA-jpgARA3yAg9HAA

Has three skills that provide access to resistance with a duration of 9, 7.5 and 4,5 seconds in cooldowns of 20, 30 and 60 seconds, so can reach 21+ seconds of resitance in a row, and as much as 47 seconds of resistance each minute. Has also access to stability (3 seconds) each time He lands FC (which can do every 7 seconds).

Instead, the only source of resistance to condi Rev is using the Mallyx skills under the Demonic Defiance trait. The base duration of that boon is 2 seconds and the cost of energy of those skills are high (except the healing). A condi Revenant/Renegade can enhance the resistence duration a bit over 3 seconds using the Leadership runes and the Seeker amulet, but that amulet doesn't provide any condi damage so etirely ruins the build. You can aim to a 2.5-3 seconds resistance duration playing with some gear, but at the end of the day you pretty much will deplete your energy pool after using 3-4 Mallyx skills and that will force you to swap your legend, which means no resistance for the next (at least) 10 seconds. So, there's no way to get more than ~30 seconds of resistance each minute for a Rev (except maybe if you stay forever in Mallyx and only use auto attacks to save energy for the Mallyx skills, which wouldn't work). That's 30 seconds vs 47. And for stability access things are even worse.

So, what seems to be the message here? The message from ANet is clear: we don't want condi Rev/Renegade to be able to tank. We don't want him to be able to deal with conditions with plenty of cleanses (as a Guardian) nor plenty of resistance uptime (as a Spellbreaker). We don't want him to be able to pressure at range as a Necro or a condi Ranger can, and the small bits of resistance they did put in that traitline are only a minor distraction. You have heavy, strong AoE condition attacks and cc, at the cost of being britle. And they won't change that because the diference between our class and a Spellbreaker in how capable is that one dealing with conditions was willful. So they won't suddenly give us extra cleansing or a significative way to boost our resistance duration.

I tried to make a viable condi Renegade build for roaming, experimenting and theorycrafting with a variety of runes, sigils and stats. I ditcehd it: won't work. Even if you get the very expensive concentration sigils, there's no stat combo which merges condition damage with concentration (in a decent mix), so resistance will always be a very random/situational tool to use. And if before PoF there were only two classes able to rip off our resistance (another Rev and a boonstrip Necro) now after PoF there's a lot of new skills that can. Spellbreaker itself will remove your res/stab faster than you can get acces to.

So, stop worrying about how dreadful is the condition management of the Revenant/Renegade compared to other classes (specifically: Spellbreaker) and REALIZE instead that they don't want a condi Rev bruiser, in the same way that don't want a Guardian with good access to swiftness or a stealth based Warrior. So either pair your condi build with a friendly support Ele/Firebrand or move to another build/class, because a high tier soloq viable condi Rev won't happen. Ever.

@Buran.3796 said:

@messiah.1908 said:

i didnt compare between renegade. i compare it to traits and skills. how one can do with 1 skill with low cd what the other need 4-6 skills and more traits and nrg.its not about the dmg or the weapon. its not about the role. its about the fact that revenant (renegade, herald) is much much weaker due to forced to use more traits and manage nrg and cd to pull the same results as SP

you forget also FULL COUNTER proc resistance for 3 sec in a 6.75 sec cd.

i dont want revenant to be bruiser rather ambusher like anet stated. but dont forget he is melee class who pssive support his team with herald, or can active support his team with powerful ambushes wielding a short bow... though the real weapon should be the razor-sharp warband, an unstoppable machine assembled from every legion and built on teamwork (from Gorea Halfcut who explain what is renegade should be). and even he state what anet did to him and looking for another class to play with

"My warband... failed. I came here for solitude while exploring Kalla's teachings. Elona's a spiritually powerful place, and I needed to get away from my old life."

we dont have any ambush abilities, no escape abilities, no sustain abilities, not much cleanse abilities and our dmg with SB is so low.i just took 1 compare from FC skill and its seems anet is really afraid from the revenenat if they dont touch it at all.

TL;dr version, do not play renegede in PvP.

Condi rev will lose to SB. Power rev should not have issues.

@otto.5684 said:TL;dr version, do not play renegede in PvP.

Condi rev will lose to SB. Power rev should not have issues.

While I definitely agree Renegade in sPvP is dicey in general, Condi Herald does fine against SB... If they're better than you, you lose, and if yer better than them ,you win... It's whatever.

Although, if you're playing Condi Revenant you shouldn't be off trying to 1v1 anyone anyways. You need to get yourself to the team fight where your massive AoE condi cleaving is actually useful. Every second you spend slowly killing a SB (and it will be a long fight) is time you're not doing what you're supposed to be doing to help your team win... And it's always your fault that you're fighting the SB--there's little they can do to stop you from disengaging.

While fun, rev is not that good at dealing with a semi skilled/skilled spellbreaker.

probably i didnt make myself clear. i am not talking dueling rather the design itself. warrior with 1 skill with low cd have what revenenat needs to do with 4-5 skills with cd and nrg. its like revenant design to be weak warrior with small team buff thats all. which means the whole concept of the revenant design to pve mainly

@messiah.1908 said:probably i didnt make myself clear. i am not talking dueling rather the design itself. warrior with 1 skill with low cd have what revenenat needs to do with 4-5 skills with cd and nrg. its like revenant design to be weak warrior with small team buff thats all. which means the whole concept of the revenant design to pve mainly

You're still making a pretty unfair comparison though... Warrior's are pretty much built around 1v1'ing, where as a Mallyx Renegade/Herald is not. I mean, you certainly CAN 1v1 as a rev, but all of your abilities are EXPONENTIALLY stronger for every enemy and ally present at the fight. It's true that a Warrior can accomplish with one skill things that take a Mallyx Rev several skills to do--but the reason is because the War's skill is self buff only (once again, dueling/brawler class design), whereas the rev's skills are meant to affect every enemy at the fight or every ally present.

Like, of course abilities designed for 1v1 fighting are going to be stronger in a 1v1 fight than those designed for a 5v5 scrum...

@narcx.3570 said:

@messiah.1908 said:probably i didnt make myself clear. i am not talking dueling rather the design itself. warrior with 1 skill with low cd have what revenenat needs to do with 4-5 skills with cd and nrg. its like revenant design to be weak warrior with small team buff thats all. which means the whole concept of the revenant design to pve mainly

lets talk resistance - warrior 3 skills and 1 trait. we have 1 skill with low cd cause its aoe. and 1 trait which give other mallyx utilities resistance for 2 sec. most of the resistance is self not group. so warrior dont have to worry about nrg. can rotate skills cd to maintain resistance even if it removed. while rev after 2 clicks wasted all his nrg.warrior aoe daze and remove boon and aoe dmg with 1 skill. rev???? staff 5? ok so check the cd. warrior is much shorter.

what you might say is warrior is 1v1 while rev is aoe. but you forget to mention we both heavy armor melee classes. while warrior has EXPONENTIALLY the best self sustain rev has none while also need to manage nrg. while warrior can do with 1 skill rev need to do the same in 1v1 with 5 skills

@narcx.3570 said:

@messiah.1908 said:probably i didnt make myself clear. i am not talking dueling rather the design itself. warrior with 1 skill with low cd have what revenenat needs to do with 4-5 skills with cd and nrg. its like revenant design to be weak warrior with small team buff thats all. which means the whole concept of the revenant design to pve mainly

Are they stronger though?

Why would you take a renegade for a team comp when you could take another scourge, SB, ele or firebrand

It feels like a lot of what herald/renegade brings another class brings that and a little more.and every renegade in pvp that I have seen has the tragic flaw of being bursted down with condies and damage or being CC'd to deathor out rotated

Just so you know guys, in theory warriors are not 1v1 class but teamfighters. Revenant is the one with "assassin" stance and swords being focused on "single target" depsite the ridiculous split for sword 2 and 3 that makes no sense. If anything rev is supposed to be the one focused on 1v1 the moment when you pick Shiro and sword.

Mallyx on the other hand was supposed to be a ridiculous OP af beast vs other condi builds. Yet hes potato cus anyone can strip resistance and since "rework" they completely butchered him, we can no longer pushin people for putting condi on us. I remember being able to 1v2 necros in BW2, walking into enemy ranger traps on purpose to get as much condi as i can then punish him or 9+sec fears on everyone around me during tm cus some necro put it on me during EtD. Now we have that useless elite which is not used at all outside of pve rotation in raid due to stat increase.