All core professions should be viable...no exceptions, you can't build elites on weak core sets — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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All core professions should be viable...no exceptions, you can't build elites on weak core sets

Supreme.3164Supreme.3164 Member ✭✭✭
edited October 9, 2020 in PVP

Trying to build an entire elite spec on top of a weak core class it's like trying to build a castle ...in the middle of a swamp; without a strong foundation you cannot hope to build something that will last the "testament of time" .

It's 2020, we are the doorstep of a 3rd expansion...and we still have professions with very weakened core concept, that lack identity and purpose...no utility in any spectrum of the game, what kind of balance is that? If I have to make a comparison.....

S ) Guardian and Necro - they both serve a purpose, have strong trait choices

A ) Ranger, Revenant , Thief - they are very viable and fun to play

B ) Warrior and Mesmer - somehow usable and offer a reliable foundation for future elites, easy to fix with numbers

C ) Elementalist and Engineer - Terrible in all aspects , outdated weapon skills and utilities , that little good they have get constantly dumped on to reign in powerful elites created as compensation for the abysmal state of the core counterpart

B ) and C ) need immediate attention , we need skill reworks here urgently....and honestly I don't know how you're trying to create a 3rd elite while ignoring the sorry state of some core professions

Comments

  • Ragnar.4257Ragnar.4257 Member ✭✭✭

    Holosmith says hi

  • ollbirtan.2915ollbirtan.2915 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Funny how they butchered FB in sPvP - it's kitten garbo now compared to core and even DH... In pve/WvW on the other hand - no changes. This game mode split needs to stop.

  • ollbirtan.2915ollbirtan.2915 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Strider.7849 said:

    @ollbirtan.2915 said:
    Funny how they butchered FB in sPvP - it's kitten garbo now compared to core and even DH... In pve/WvW on the other hand - no changes. This game mode split needs to stop.

    It's probably a good thing they split it, have you seen the build diversity in PvP? Rune choice has little impact, only a handful of amulets, classes Pidgeon holed into almost preset optimal trait choices.. this is a community created problem due to constant balance whine. I say leave real PvPing to WvW and let sPvP devolve more into turn-based rpg.

    Totally agree about complete lack of build diversity due to the removal of amulets / runes / sigil because ...forum warriors....
    Don't agree about your point about WvW being real sPvP. These are two fundamentally different game modes that require different skills, playstyle, and way of thinking. sPvP needs to get the amulets back or new versions of them. Plus, either reversion of Feb patch which was a disaster, or more balance patches as was promised. But who am I fooling, I'm just one PvP guy in the back after all...

  • vorpal.1497vorpal.1497 Member ✭✭✭

    Core war here (wont spend money on expansions since they intentionally imbalance pvp to make you want to buy them)

    Finishing this season off at position 141 (as of this writing), seems viable to me, and I'm not "very" good (never was able to get more than 1700 rank)

  • Dantheman.3589Dantheman.3589 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I wouldn’t call core rev good at all. Core thief is actually pretty ehh, it just gets carried by how brain dead shadow arts + condi pistols are.
    Core specs like core guard and ranger are like kings of core rn and thats becuz the traitline synergy is all there between 2-3 traitlines while no other class can pull that as well. Core necro almost has the trait synergy, it’s just op though so it works out.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Supreme.3164 said:
    Terrible in all aspects

    Purity Of Purpose

    gaggle - /ˈɡaɡ(ə)l/ - noun
    A disorderly group of Asura.
    "The gaggle of Asura tried to agree on whether a phase-shifted thermonuclear energy matrix was sufficiently powerful for a device capable of heating bread"

  • Azreell.1568Azreell.1568 Member ✭✭✭

    @Supreme.3164 said:
    Trying to build an entire elite spec on top of a weak core class it's like trying to build a castle ...in the middle of a swamp; without a strong foundation you cannot hope to build something that will last the "testament of time" .

    It's 2020, we are the doorstep of a 3rd expansion...and we still have professions with very weakened core concept, that lack identity and purpose...no utility in any spectrum of the game, what kind of balance is that? If I have to make a comparison.....

    S ) Guardian and Necro - they both serve a purpose, have strong trait choices

    A ) Ranger, Revenant , Thief - they are very viable and fun to play

    B ) Warrior and Mesmer - somehow usable and offer a reliable foundation for future elites, easy to fix with numbers

    C ) Elementalist and Engineer - Terrible in all aspects , outdated weapon skills and utilities , that little good they have get constantly dumped on to reign in powerful elites created as compensation for the abysmal state of the core counterpart

    B ) and C ) need immediate attention , we need skill reworks here urgently....and honestly I don't know how you're trying to create a 3rd elite while ignoring the sorry state of some core professions

    Your entire post is simply wrong and impossible.

    First, most mmorpgs with few exceptions were designed from the ground up as pve games with pvp as an after thought - this game included.

    Next in an mmorpg unlike fps’s there are too many classes, skills and variables to ever achieve true balance.

    Also, let’s be frank from a company standpoint pvp modes or games speaking about mmorpgs ( FPS or mobas excluded) are not as profitable nor ever have been as pve based games.

    All we have now is the perpetual carrot on a stick chasing imaginary balance which can never be achieved in the current direction we are going.

    We would be better served by realizing certain classes and specs are simply dominant in this mode and only working with those.

    Diversity will always lead further away from balance.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Supreme.3164 said:
    Trying to build an entire elite spec on top of a weak core class it's like trying to build a castle ...in the middle of a swamp; without a strong foundation you cannot hope to build something that will last the "testament of time" .

    It's 2020, we are the doorstep of a 3rd expansion...and we still have professions with very weakened core concept, that lack identity and purpose...no utility in any spectrum of the game, what kind of balance is that? If I have to make a comparison.....

    S ) Guardian and Necro - they both serve a purpose, have strong trait choices

    Guardian is the mvp of this game, the most played class and A-nets current baby. Necro just happens to be the bennificiary of not having much done to its core kit, and the changes that DID happen were mostly indirect buffs. Its weapons (Staff, daggers) or some weapons I should say are in DRASTIC need of a rework, as they really just suck.

    A ) Ranger, Revenant , Thief - they are very viable and fun to play

    eeer, core revenant is no where NEAR being close to ranger or thief in terms of power. Id argue Core still feels kitten because of its E-specs just being better.

    B ) Warrior and Mesmer - somehow usable and offer a reliable foundation for future elites, easy to fix with numbers

    Well core warrior and core messmer between their E-specs and them are the best of the class. The E-specs were gutted to make way for whatever is coming, and core was left untouched outside of the same nerfs that hit their E-specs. Those nerfs however are mitigated by the fact that their core classes were well built when the game came out, and the reworks thus-far have only made them better. Likely though this will NOT last forever..

    C ) Elementalist and Engineer - Terrible in all aspects , outdated weapon skills and utilities , that little good they have get constantly dumped on to reign in powerful elites created as compensation for the abysmal state of the core counterpart

    Two of the most difficult proffesions to play, doesn't surprise me they are in their current state. They likely are also the least played due to the difficulty; So it also doesn't and won't surprise me if A-net does nothing for them.

    B ) and C ) need immediate attention , we need skill reworks here urgently....and honestly I don't know how you're trying to create a 3rd elite while ignoring the sorry state of some core professions

    This will see no attention, because in the long run to them it likely doesn't matter. Consume product; That is our purpose here and I really don't think you will see much of anything done for any of the classes outside of nerfs. Because CmC likes the narrative of "nerf everything until everything is equal" the issue with that statement is that it doesn't take in the rule of fun. It takes in the rule of eventually when you strip everything down and give everyone a stick, the game will be balanced and then no complaints can be made... which to me as someone who has been here since launch? Seems to me are on a fast track of every class being the same, with different colors. The balance is in the worst place its EVER been and its NOT fun to play.

    luckily though ANYTHING works in open-world so most players don't even need to worry, because most everything being nerfed/changed/dinked with doesn't even get effected and the balance is separated acrossed the modes. So the Over-land PvE crowd can happily be left to its own devices while the rest of us suffer.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Azreell.1568 said:

    @Supreme.3164 said:
    Trying to build an entire elite spec on top of a weak core class it's like trying to build a castle ...in the middle of a swamp; without a strong foundation you cannot hope to build something that will last the "testament of time" .

    It's 2020, we are the doorstep of a 3rd expansion...and we still have professions with very weakened core concept, that lack identity and purpose...no utility in any spectrum of the game, what kind of balance is that? If I have to make a comparison.....

    S ) Guardian and Necro - they both serve a purpose, have strong trait choices

    A ) Ranger, Revenant , Thief - they are very viable and fun to play

    B ) Warrior and Mesmer - somehow usable and offer a reliable foundation for future elites, easy to fix with numbers

    C ) Elementalist and Engineer - Terrible in all aspects , outdated weapon skills and utilities , that little good they have get constantly dumped on to reign in powerful elites created as compensation for the abysmal state of the core counterpart

    B ) and C ) need immediate attention , we need skill reworks here urgently....and honestly I don't know how you're trying to create a 3rd elite while ignoring the sorry state of some core professions

    Your entire post is simply wrong and impossible.

    First, most mmorpgs with few exceptions were designed from the ground up as pve games with pvp as an after thought - this game included.

    Next in an mmorpg unlike fps’s there are too many classes, skills and variables to ever achieve true balance.

    Also, let’s be frank from a company standpoint pvp modes or games speaking about mmorpgs ( FPS or mobas excluded) are not as profitable nor ever have been as pve based games.

    All we have now is the perpetual carrot on a stick chasing imaginary balance which can never be achieved in the current direction we are going.

    We would be better served by realizing certain classes and specs are simply dominant in this mode and only working with those.

    Diversity will always lead further away from balance.

    Balance is something I wish games would just give up on, a good player can make anything shine. As long as its fun and enjoyable SOMEONE out there will make it good and showcase its strengths; Stripping the fun from other classes is a fast track to death. Likewise Id wager WvW is the second largest portion of this playerbase outside of open world so it would benefit A-net to find a sweetspot of fun and not "Imma one shot everything". But even before February there were very few one shot builds that could EASILY of been fixed without the blanket nerfs, and devastation they unleashed. At this stage Im beginning to wonder if these moves are not just attempts to finally kill off the competitive player-base~ Feels like it at any rate.

  • Swagg.9236Swagg.9236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Supreme.3164 said:
    Trying to build an entire elite spec on top of a weak core class it's like trying to build a castle ...in the middle of a swamp; without a strong foundation you cannot hope to build something that will last the "testament of time" .

    GW2's specs outshine all core elements exactly because no original class (or even Revenant for that matter) was ever given a unique role to help define the flow of combat in any context (PvE or PvP). This is why PvE was exclusively ruled by 3 classes; and PvP has always been dominated by patch notes (along with Thief Shortbow 5 and pre-nerf Portal) rather than uniquely innovative players or game-defining engine gimmicks that only precise inputs could exploit. Despite having enjoyed so much about Guild Wars 1's profession roster, I can easily make the argument that GW2 deserved to have absolutely no more than 3-4 classes at most. This game simply does not feature enough depth of combat to provide space for more than that.

    If you aren't willing to entirely up-end how GW2 "plays," you'll never have any "core" set-up that looks or performs any better (or differently) than the current core PvP Guardian (which, by the way, is almost EXACTLY just how it played in 2012 PvE; a straight-up "Stack might on Alpha" level of basic gameplay). So, unless you just want a bunch of PvE builds from the Launch+1year era to start killing/tanking things in PvP without any effort, you really need to re-think how GW2 is supposed to even work as a game. If you don't (and nobody will by the way), you'll just receive arbitrary damage buffs and cooldown reductions like always.

  • Swagg.9236Swagg.9236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Azreell.1568 said:

    @Supreme.3164 said:
    Trying to build an entire elite spec on top of a weak core class it's like trying to build a castle ...in the middle of a swamp; without a strong foundation you cannot hope to build something that will last the "testament of time" .

    It's 2020, we are the doorstep of a 3rd expansion...and we still have professions with very weakened core concept, that lack identity and purpose...no utility in any spectrum of the game, what kind of balance is that? If I have to make a comparison.....

    S ) Guardian and Necro - they both serve a purpose, have strong trait choices

    A ) Ranger, Revenant , Thief - they are very viable and fun to play

    B ) Warrior and Mesmer - somehow usable and offer a reliable foundation for future elites, easy to fix with numbers

    C ) Elementalist and Engineer - Terrible in all aspects , outdated weapon skills and utilities , that little good they have get constantly dumped on to reign in powerful elites created as compensation for the abysmal state of the core counterpart

    B ) and C ) need immediate attention , we need skill reworks here urgently....and honestly I don't know how you're trying to create a 3rd elite while ignoring the sorry state of some core professions

    Your entire post is simply wrong and impossible.

    First, most mmorpgs with few exceptions were designed from the ground up as pve games with pvp as an after thought - this game included.

    Next in an mmorpg unlike fps’s there are too many classes, skills and variables to ever achieve true balance.

    Also, let’s be frank from a company standpoint pvp modes or games speaking about mmorpgs ( FPS or mobas excluded) are not as profitable nor ever have been as pve based games.

    All we have now is the perpetual carrot on a stick chasing imaginary balance which can never be achieved in the current direction we are going.

    We would be better served by realizing certain classes and specs are simply dominant in this mode and only working with those.

    Diversity will always lead further away from balance.

    Balance is something I wish games would just give up on, a good player can make anything shine. As long as its fun and enjoyable SOMEONE out there will make it good and showcase its strengths; Stripping the fun from other classes is a fast track to death.

    While I agree that buffs are generally always better than nerfs, GW2 is not a game in which individual player skill can truly shine. You try to hit platinum with a core staff elementalist build. It's certainly possible, and I (among a few others) can serve as anecdotal proof, but it's infuriatingly difficult to maintain that rank because there are so many builds which will simply not die to your damage output and walk through your ward walls no matter how perfect you are in execution (and if "staff is a support weapon," then I guess we should just blindly agree that it's better to just play "Cooldown Solitaire" with yourself on a node than actively influence a game's flow). Point is that GW2 quickly becomes a game about "picking the good fight" rather than "I'm better than this dude, so I'm just going to lay into him," and after a point, certain builds just become a burden to a team no matter how skillful that build's player may be. Builds often have the final say on a player's skill level, not an individual's creativity or execution.

    That guy to whom you were replying had a good appeal in the idea of how

    We would be better served by realizing certain classes and specs are simply dominant in this mode and only working with those.

    It's just the "too little too late" version of my stance regarding how GW2 should have never launched with more than four classes in the first place. This game is just not deep enough to feature enough roles for everyone to be happy.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Swagg.9236 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Azreell.1568 said:

    @Supreme.3164 said:
    Trying to build an entire elite spec on top of a weak core class it's like trying to build a castle ...in the middle of a swamp; without a strong foundation you cannot hope to build something that will last the "testament of time" .

    It's 2020, we are the doorstep of a 3rd expansion...and we still have professions with very weakened core concept, that lack identity and purpose...no utility in any spectrum of the game, what kind of balance is that? If I have to make a comparison.....

    S ) Guardian and Necro - they both serve a purpose, have strong trait choices

    A ) Ranger, Revenant , Thief - they are very viable and fun to play

    B ) Warrior and Mesmer - somehow usable and offer a reliable foundation for future elites, easy to fix with numbers

    C ) Elementalist and Engineer - Terrible in all aspects , outdated weapon skills and utilities , that little good they have get constantly dumped on to reign in powerful elites created as compensation for the abysmal state of the core counterpart

    B ) and C ) need immediate attention , we need skill reworks here urgently....and honestly I don't know how you're trying to create a 3rd elite while ignoring the sorry state of some core professions

    Your entire post is simply wrong and impossible.

    First, most mmorpgs with few exceptions were designed from the ground up as pve games with pvp as an after thought - this game included.

    Next in an mmorpg unlike fps’s there are too many classes, skills and variables to ever achieve true balance.

    Also, let’s be frank from a company standpoint pvp modes or games speaking about mmorpgs ( FPS or mobas excluded) are not as profitable nor ever have been as pve based games.

    All we have now is the perpetual carrot on a stick chasing imaginary balance which can never be achieved in the current direction we are going.

    We would be better served by realizing certain classes and specs are simply dominant in this mode and only working with those.

    Diversity will always lead further away from balance.

    Balance is something I wish games would just give up on, a good player can make anything shine. As long as its fun and enjoyable SOMEONE out there will make it good and showcase its strengths; Stripping the fun from other classes is a fast track to death.

    While I agree that buffs are generally always better than nerfs, GW2 is not a game in which individual player skill can truly shine. You try to hit platinum with a core staff elementalist build. It's certainly possible, and I (among a few others) can serve as anecdotal proof, but it's infuriatingly difficult to maintain that rank because there are so many builds which will simply not die to your damage output and walk through your ward walls no matter how perfect you are in execution (and if "staff is a support weapon," then I guess we should just blindly agree that it's better to just play "Cooldown Solitaire" with yourself on a node than actively influence a game's flow). Point is that GW2 quickly becomes a game about "picking the good fight" rather than "I'm better than this dude, so I'm just going to lay into him," and after a point, certain builds just become a burden to a team no matter how skillful that build's player may be. Builds often have the final say on a player's skill level, not an individual's creativity or execution.

    That guy to whom you were replying had a good appeal in the idea of how

    We would be better served by realizing certain classes and specs are simply dominant in this mode and only working with those.

    It's just the "too little too late" version of my stance regarding how GW2 should have never launched with more than four classes in the first place. This game is just not deep enough to feature enough roles for everyone to be happy.

    It lacks depth because those who made it didn't want another guild wars 1, because they like it "simple stupid" which is in lamest terms for keep it as simplistic as possible so a monkey could do it. Given the QQ everywhere... Id wager they failed at that... for one reason or another friend.

  • Ovark.2514Ovark.2514 Member ✭✭✭

    @vorpal.1497 said:
    Core war here (wont spend money on expansions since they intentionally imbalance pvp to make you want to buy them)

    I didn't buy the expansions because I assumed the new specs would be OP. I bought them because of all the fun new toys/buildcraft. I feel like that's why most PvPers bought the xpacs. . .

  • Ovark.2514Ovark.2514 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 13, 2020

    @Supreme.3164 said:
    how you're trying to create a 3rd elite while ignoring the sorry state of some core professions

    Well, we've had 8 months of no pvp changes so a reasonable person might assume this next large patch would contain significant reworks considering all the extra time taken. I don't have high hopes for obvious reasons, but there's a chance!

  • @Ovark.2514 said:

    @Supreme.3164 said:
    how you're trying to create a 3rd elite while ignoring the sorry state of some core professions

    Well, we've had 8 months of no pvp changes so a reasonable person might assume this next large patch would contain significant reworks considering all the extra time taken. I don't have high hopes for obvious reasons, but there's a chance!

    Considering they flat out said they'd be releasing frequent pvp changes months ago, and yet didn't by any stretch of the word, a second reasonable person might assume they simply ditched PvP and put it on life support as they go all in on PvE, their golden child in the first place. It's really less of a chance and more of a distant wish.

  • Fearless.3569Fearless.3569 Member ✭✭✭

    The state of Ele is the main reason I don't look to give GW2 a solid 2nd shot.

  • Azreell.1568Azreell.1568 Member ✭✭✭

    @Fearless.3569 said:
    The state of Ele is the main reason I don't look to give GW2 a solid 2nd shot.

    But you care enough to post on the forums?

    Here is the issue.

    This game will never have balance. No game will have the type of balance the pvp community desire's because it is impossible in the mmorpg setting.

    Quite frankly no mmo to date I have ever played ( dating back to merridian 59 and uo) ever had balance.

    There were always and will always be dominant specs and or classes for certain game modes or periods of time.

    As long as mmorpg's have been mainstream - it's odd people haven't figured this out yet.

    All these "balance" patches do is make a new round of FOTM specs to compete with and then " nerf" many of the current common FOTM specs.

    That is absolutely no different them Anet telling us , " Okay for the next 4-6 months These are the classes we are slotting in to be competitive in pvp and these are the classes we are removing.

    The above is no different then a roster change.

    Granted , some classes stay on the roster longer then others but you get the point.

    I think it would server Anet far better to simply state that openly. Because, for whatever reason the current crop of mmo player's don't seem to be catching on to that concept.